A New Age of FRC?

[Wyatt Jordan]

So I know this year's game is completely different from the past two decades of FRC. Obviously one of the huge changes is having the alliances separated by a barrier which they cannot (legally) cross. I was wondering if this will be true for the next several FRC games for several reasons:

1. FIRST re-structured the manual, it is organized very differently from previous manuals and might be a template for future manuals

2. They are using colored carpet to separate the two sides, and FIRST wouldn't order a lot of new carpet for only one year right?

3. Bumpers, or lack there of. I feel like they also wouldn't change this for just one year, and the new team number display cards seem like a permanent change.

With all these big changes I was wondering if we are entering into a new age of FRC games? Do you think all future games will have alliances separated on the field and no defense? We will probably just have to wait and see, but if this is true, I'm glad I'm a senior now and not a freshman, because at least I had 3 really fun FRC games with lots of robot-to-robot struggles. (all-time favorite ultimate ascent)

[Whippet]

2. They are using colored carpet to separate the two sides, and FIRST wouldn't order a lot of new carpet for only one year right?

AFAIK, carpet is replaced after each regional. It wears out very quickly with some 50 robots running over it 10 times apiece.

[efoote868]

3. Bumpers, or lack there of. I feel like they also wouldn't change this for just one year, and the new team number display cards seem like a permanent change.

Use the game pieces this year to fabricate new bumpers next year... fits in the theme of the game, right?

[brndn]

After the reaction to this year's game... I think we can expect to see some defense next year again.

[Jon Stratis]

So I know this year's game is completely different from the past two decades of FRC. Obviously one of the huge changes is having the alliances separated by a barrier which they cannot (legally) cross. I was wondering if this will be true for the next several FRC games for several reasons:

1. FIRST re-structured the manual, it is organized very differently from previous manuals and might be a template for future manuals

2. They are using colored carpet to separate the two sides, and FIRST wouldn't order a lot of new carpet for only one year right?

3. Bumpers, or lack there of. I feel like they also wouldn't change this for just one year, and the new team number display cards seem like a permanent change.

With all these big changes I was wondering if we are entering into a new age of FRC games? Do you think all future games will have alliances separated on the field and no defense? We will probably just have to wait and see, but if this is true, I'm glad I'm a senior now and not a freshman, because at least I had 3 really fun FRC games with lots of robot-to-robot struggles. (all-time favorite ultimate ascent)

1. It's restructured? They went with a different publishing method, but the general structure seems to be largely the same to me. Whats so different about it this year?

2. Carpet is only used for one event. Sometimes, carpet from later events may be sent onwards to champs for practice fields, but the carpet used on the competition field is brand new every event.

3. Bumper rules used to change all the time. First, there were none. Then they were optional. Then they were required, or had to cover a certain % of the frame perimeter, or had to cover the corners... lots of changes over the past 10 years on bumpers alone! I think the lack of required bumpers this year is due ONLY to the lack of defense in this game and the separation of the alliances. Recently, bumpers were used for 3 purposes: to help protect the robots from hard impacts, to identify the alliance the robot was on, and to identify the team number. 2 of the 3 don't apply this year, and the third was replaced with the number requirement, which is actually not really all that new of a requirement. Take, for example, R14 from 2007 (http://www3.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Community/FRC/FRC_Documents_and_Updates/2007_assets/Manual/8-The_Robot%2CRev%20G.pdf):
The judges, referees, and announcers must be able to easily identify ROBOTS by Team Number. Teams must display their Team Number in four locations at approximately 90-degree intervals around the perimeter of the ROBOT.
The numerals must be at least 4 inches high, at least in 3/4- inch stroke width and in a contrasting color from its background. Team Numbers must be clearly visible from a distance of not less than 100 feet.

Don't assume anything about the future based on this one game. If anything, this game is telling us that the assumptions we had about this year as little as a week ago were wrong!

[Wyatt Jordan]

After the reaction to this year's game... I think we can expect to see some defense next year again.

but they plan the games far in advance right? and how much do they actually re-evaluate their games based on the communities reaction to previous games? They had a good thing going with rebound rumble and ultimate ascent why change it? So this game must have been planned far in advance and even though FIRST knew they were deviating from the successful pattern of the last 3 years they still went with it

[Dan Petrovic]

FIRST has a recent trend of alternating between exciting spectator games to technically challenging games and we're in the technically challenging part of the cycle. FIRST will see that games that allow for alliance interaction are preferred by the community.

However, for this year, I think FIRST (and maybe FedEx) really wanted to re-visit a box stacking game. It didn't go so well back in 2003 and turned largely into a King of the Hill style game because stacks are difficult to protect, so I think they bit the bullet and decided to separate teams so that the box stacking game can come to life as intended.

The added benefit of the separated teams comes from the much more relaxed robot constraints. This year allows teams to think outside the box (or the frame perimeter) for their robot concepts and my students are rather intimidated by that fact. We're so used to strict starting configuration constraints and even teleoperated size restraints that they have hardly even considered the possibility of creating larger designs.

Because of all of this I have the suspicion that, while this may not become the norm, we will likely see similar structures in the future.

On the topic of the carpet, FIRST has used colored carpet in the past, so I don't think that it'll become a fixture in the games. Ironically, it was last used during the last game that "featured" stacking boxes.

[MikLast]

but they plan the games far in advance right?

I happened to watch the last FRC behind the line a couple nights ago, and one of the guests talked about that. He said that they keep on one idea through the whole year, and they were still making big changes for this game right up until the last few days.

[dk5sm5luigi]

Good chance bumpers will be back based on this blog post:

In fact, we strongly recommend, and sincerely hope, that instead of throwing the pool noodles in the closest trash bin when done with them, that you recycle them or set them aside for possible bumpers later.

FRC Blog (http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-Dont-Eat-the-Noodles)

[sodizzle]

2. They are using colored carpet to separate the two sides, and FIRST wouldn't order a lot of new carpet for only one year right?

They used green colored carpet in 2010 and that hasn't been reused.

[nuclearnerd]

I think it depends on how the game plays this year.

Pro: The lack of defense will be easier on teams with rickety bots, or with ambitious complicated strategies, so we'll see more of them pull it off.

Con: Without defense the matches might be foregone conclusions, so the sport might be less engaging.

Pro Rebuttal: With the seed coming from total score, rather than W/L, maybe the losing alliance will be still fun to watch - especially if the announcers keep track of the stats.

Con Rebuttal: Without the leveling aspect of "defense bots are easy to make and drive", Uber-teams might have a freer hand to dominate than years previous. I expect there to be a pretty strong correlation this year between OPR and team budget / experience.

So it could swing either way. I'm more ready to give it a chance than I was at kickoff. If it works, we'll see more of these (*cough FLL*) style games. If it doesn't, we won't.

[Amar Shah]

Use the game pieces this year to fabricate new bumpers next year... fits in the theme of the game, right?

Not to mention sending out the kit of parts next year inside this years' game pieces.

[Steven Donow]

After the reaction to this year's game... I think we can expect to see some defense next year again.

Last year's game, IMO had a worse reaction (or, at least a negative reaction that seemed to make more sense).

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1. FIRST re-structured the manual, it is organized very differently from previous manuals and might be a template for future manuals

2. They are using colored carpet to separate the two sides, and FIRST wouldn't order a lot of new carpet for only one year right?

3. Bumpers, or lack there of. I feel like they also wouldn't change this for just one year, and the new team number display cards seem like a permanent change.


1. That's just a simple, nice, reorganizational thing that probably was going to happen anyway. Especially now that they got rid of the ugly web-reader that created the ugly PDF.

2. Carpets are handled, usually, by the individual event.

3. Display cards aren't necessarily a thing, just as long as SOMEWHERE you have the numbers visible in that form. It's definitely not out of the question for bumpers to be back.

[pmangels17]

They didn't re-use the carpet from 2009 in future years....

[EricH]

They used green colored carpet in 2010 and that hasn't been reused.

And tan carpet in 2012 hasn't made another appearance.

[FrankJ]

Did somebody say Regolith?

[cadandcookies]

I wouldn't be surprised if we saw another game that had separated alliances, but I don't think it's indicative of any greater change in FIRST-- other than a more visible statement that FIRST really isn't held to some sort of game template, and that rules can and do change.

[cglrcng]

This game is both a thinking game of play strategy, & a robot design challenge that can be very deep (it isn't just simply building stacks and walls)....People need to give it a chance...It will be much more exciting than you possibly think, and definitely a large challenge on field and off. Even more so, since "The Litter Dilemma" has been officially cured. (See todays 1-9-2014 updates).

Just give it a decent chance, as it was never intended to be "Battle Bots," and will be far from grown up FLL. (From 1 who taped enough carpet during 1 single regional event last year, to simply last a lifetime, those ultra-pushing matches and fully open field, aren't really all they seem to me cracked up to be from a gameplay/fan/schedule flow aspect). The field prep required between matches, delays you playing the game faster.
___________________________
Way OFF TOPIC:
Did anyone else notice the yellow banana's on the "Official Arena/Field Drawings?" (They are spread all over the field from 1 end to the other and must be cookies planted as watermarks....Or, were/will be left to help feed the field building/teardown volunteer crew, and keep them from cramping up later those nights).:cool:

[kmusa]

Way OFF TOPIC:
Did anyone else notice the yellow banana's on the "Official Arena/Field Drawings?" (They are spread all over the field from 1 end to the other and must be cookies planted as watermarks....Or, were/will be left to help feed the field building/teardown volunteer crew, and keep them from cramping up later those nights).:cool:

Actually, official parts on the Field Assembly Drawing (FE-00038)


Item___Part Number___Qty___Description
1_______BANANA______6___Banana for Scale

[Foster]

I was happy to see this post. It means that people are working through the 5 stages of an FRC season and are almost through to the last step

Denial - Oh no, not a game without a defense! How can it be a robot competition if there isn't defense. All sports have defense! We are no longer a sport.

Anger - I've been a <mentor, roboteer, parent, fan> for X <months, years, decades> and RecycleRush has completely ruined my entire robotics experience.

Bargaining - Please GDC can't we have these minor rule changes.

Depression - "A new Age of FRC?" How can this be, I want my old FRC back.

So soon (once teams get moving robots) there will be acceptance

[jaykris284]

Overall I believe that FIRST wanted to create a new game to fend off the criticism they got last year. In future years I see a middle ground between defense and offense being incorporated in the game.

[Foster]

So with the recent rules update does this thread just die .... Everything is back to being fine!

[Jaxom]

If it works, we'll see more of these (*cough FLL*) style games. If it doesn't, we won't.

If you want to consider this a FLL style game, program everything & don't use any human controls during teleop. :]

[philso]

Not to mention sending out the kit of parts next year inside this years' game pieces.

Do you think they may charge more for a KOP shipped in a tote certified as having been used on Einstein?


I wouldn't be surprised if we saw another game that had separated alliances, but I don't think it's indicative of any greater change in FIRST-- other than a more visible statement that FIRST really isn't held to some sort of game template, and that rules can and do change.

This game is both a thinking game of play strategy, & a robot design challenge that can be very deep (it isn't just simply building stacks and walls)....

Maybe FIRST is wanting to shake up the existing mindsets about how best to play the game. I feel this is good since your (future) employer may give a project that is quite unlike what you had worked on before requiring you to approach your job in a very different way and/or to develop new skills.


Uber-teams might have a freer hand to dominate than years previous. I expect there to be a pretty strong correlation this year between OPR and team budget / experience.

So it could swing either way. I'm more ready to give it a chance than I was at kickoff. If it works, we'll see more of these (*cough FLL*) style games. If it doesn't, we won't.

The only aspect of this game I see that is similar to FLL is that the Uber-teams are likely to develop "Monster-bots" that span large parts of the field to score much more rapidly than a robot that must drive back and forth. These are great fun to watch if you appreciate mechanical ingenuity. I feel they are probably more likely to appeal to spectators outside of the FRC community compared to the appreciation and reverence that teams like 16, 67, 254 and 1114 get within FRC community since knowledge of the subtleties of the game in not required to appreciate them.

[Brandon_L]

1. FIRST re-structured the manual, it is organized very differently from previous manuals and might be a template for future manuals


One of the first comments I made on kickoff day after the game was released was something along the lines of "Wow, the manual actually makes sense if you read it in order now". I've always hated how the past manuals were set up.

+1 I hope this sticks around.

[g_sawchuk]

I wouldn't be surprised to see them separated again, but I think they would be interacting more, and not just with coopertition.

[Koko Ed]

I was happy to see this post. It means that people are working through the 5 stages of an FRC season and are almost through to the last step

Denial - Oh no, not a game without a defense! How can it be a robot competition if there isn't defense. All sports have defense! We are no longer a sport.

Anger - I've been a <mentor, roboteer, parent, fan> for X <months, years, decades> and RecycleRush has completely ruined my entire robotics experience.

Bargaining - Please GDC can't we have these minor rule changes.

Depression - "A new Age of FRC?" How can this be, I want my old FRC back.

So soon (once teams get moving robots) there will be acceptance

Acceptance will come next year when everybody PMS (pre emptive snipes) the new game and misses the previous year's game.