What robots will seed highest?

[pandamonium]

Just curious what robot styles the community thinks will be seed highest in qualification rounds.

[asid61]

This game is so broken that I'm placing very little stock in forklifts.
No size restrictions means that something really, really broken will happen. I'm just waiting for the Poof's reveal.

[Spoam]

Honestly extremely doubt anything game breaking will happen with size restrictions. I bet poofs will show up with a standard horseshoe-like stack robot; they're not known to overcomplicate things. That being said their robot will do everything, but they'll do it with the most mechanically simple/elegant design they can conceive.

[EricLeifermann]

Honestly extremely doubt anything game breaking will happen with size restrictions. I bet poofs will show up with a standard horseshoe stack robot, they're not known to overcomplicate things.

The beauty of 254 is that their complexity is hidden by the cleanliness of their robots. 254 is not going to just stack totes, they will do more than that.

This game is going to be won by the team that can do as much as possible without the aids of their alliance partners. The team that can stack totes and place bins on top the fastest is going to win. The trade off these teams are going to have to think about is whether to take the time to put a noodle in the bin or use that time to make another stack...

[PVCpirate]

The best stacking robot will seed the highest at an event. I don't know exactly what that robot will be able to do yet, but they'll be able to make some kind of stack, maybe with a bin, maybe with a noodle, totally solo. The bot will build higher and/or faster than any other at the event. I think we'll see at least one robot that has the ability to build a max height stack with a bin and noodle by itself, though they may not do it in a match.

[dodar]

Honestly, this year wont really be about picking the next highest seed; even though this will be the case at most regionals. Hidden gems will be scattered throughout the rankings. And those bots will be huge keys to winning regionals/districts and divisions.

[Tommy F.]

I'd say that in order to seed highest you will have to adapt to do whatever you need to do for their alliance.

The game during qualifications isn't about out-scoring your opponents anymore, it's about putting up the highest amount of points you can, consistently.

So it probably doesn't matter what you do, as long as you can score consistently and know you're not going to be sitting in a match doing nothing.

[XaulZan11]

Hidden gems will be scattered throughout the rankings. And those bots will be huge keys to winning regionals/districts and divisions.

Isn't this the case every year?

[dodar]

Isn't this the case every year?

To an extent, yes. But since this year you have multiple game pieces, specialized robots could be more prevalent this year and they might not be able to rank high because they need the good teammates to be fully capable.

In most years, the "hidden gems" were robots that were really good at what the high rank could do but just had a bad run during quals.

[Jacob Bendicksen]

Isn't this the case every year?

Yes, but I think it'll be more so this year. Some robots won't be ranked well because they had alliances that didn't work well together in quals, but with the right alliance members, they'll be able to rack up huge amounts of points.

Successful playoff alliances will have three complementary robots, not three robots that all do the same thing. If one robot can do everything, but isn't a world-class do-it-all bot, it'll do well in quals, since it can carry alliances. However, once it reaches the playoffs, it'll run into specialist alliances that don't have overlap, just three robots that complement each other, and those specialist alliances will be the ones to reach the finals.

EDIT: ninja'd by dodar, I agree with what he said.

[Jay O'Donnell]

I don't think its about what you do, but how well you do it.

[artdutra04]

I strongly disagree with "Crazy Robot That Does Everything".

This year more than any other, a jack of all trades is master of none.

[Thromgord]

I don't think its about what you do, but how well you do it.

Agreed. That being said, I think that the highest-scoring robots will be those who can:

>consistently, quickly stack totes (perhaps with a recycle bin on top),

>have a design that is relatively simple and works well with other robots,

>have reasonably good autonomous capability, and

>have good drivers with plenty of experience.

But then again, that's pretty much my thoughts for any year. I don't think that teams should strive for a robot that can do everything, unless they are positive that they can do everything very well. Otherwise, it is best to concentrate on stacking totes and recycle bins, or perhaps putting a noodle on top of a stack.

I predict that one of the easiest ways to be chosen by an alliance at finals is to have a robot that is very good at putting noodles on top of recycle bins. There don't seem to be too many teams capable of doing this, and it would be reasonably simple to do. The point bonus would likely be attractive enough for alliances to pick a team that puts noodles on top of bins, but only if they had the system perfected.

Just my $0.02.

[Dunngeon]

I predict that one of the easiest ways to be chosen by an alliance at finals is to have a robot that is very good at putting noodles on top of recycle bins. There don't seem to be too many teams capable of doing this, and it would be reasonably simple to do. The point bonus would likely be attractive enough for alliances to pick a team that puts noodles on top of bins, but only if they had the system perfected.

Just my $0.02.

Given how easy it is to human load the noodles is the solo noodle robot really going to be necessary? I'd imagine a bin robot that could drive to the human player station would fill the noodle role as well.

[Mike Marandola]

I strongly disagree with "Crazy Robot That Does Everything".

This year more than any other, a jack of all trades is master of none.

I took "Crazy Robot That Does Everything" to mean a robot with a three tote auto and can quickly stack both totes and bins in teleop. I know scoring litter would be everything but I don't see that happening much.

[IronicDeadBird]

I strongly disagree with "Crazy Robot That Does Everything".

This year more than any other, a jack of all trades is master of none.

I'd disagree. Looking at the periodic table of stacks the utility scales as you go up.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=17742&d=1420418954

If you look at the requirement to score six points in game.
It is
1 tote and 1 bin
or
3 totes

Lets set that as the baseline for a scoring role. Lets scale it up to 12 points
1 tote 1 bin 1 noodle
or
2 totes 1 bin
or
6 totes

That is either one of the craziest coincidences in game design I have ever seen or intentional.
My bets are on intentional.
This could be the GDC balancing out strategy and not punishing teams for following one standard design path for this years game. It implies that they wanted a manipulation heavy robot (that is capable of controlling a tote bin and noodle quickly and effectively) to be just as valued as a stack heavy robot (that is capable of racking up 6 totes as quickly and efficiently as the bin and noodle).
BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE
The 2 tote 1 bin is a sort of middle ground for both ends of the spectrum. It requires basic stacking ability and basic manipulation of bins and provides the same 12 points. Last year the two opposite ends of the scoring spectrum were (imo) a scoring bot vs a goalie bot. While technically the rules were set out to keep both roles balanced. Everyone quickly found out that there were so many areas where you could just work around a goalie bot the rules were almost written against them (the fouls for extensions, the limited area, giving up an assist in favor of defense). This year though the GDC does not punish a team for choosing a specific build path.
Shout out to that!
That is good game design....

[MrJohnston]

The robot that has the highest seed in district and regional competitions will be the one that:
* Can make individually make three stacks of 4-6 totes + a recycling bin during teleop.
* Has some sort of scoring ability in autonomous or can assist with coopertition.

However, in order to win in elimination rounds, an alliance must not only have the ability listed above, but must also be able to consistently get (and stack!) at least two of the recycling bins from the center.

As for the "Jack of all Trades..." As a general rule, we approach the game like this: Do one thing very, very well. Do a second thing well. Anything more than that is gravy. For the most part, there is neither time in build season not enough weight allowed to to do everything well, so choices have to be made. Doing everything "so-so" is not a viable strategy for winning anything.

[EdWard3637]

If you assume that the robot that stacks 3 in autonomous will then score it on the step, that's a 60 point robot at the start of the match with the capability of making stacks of 3 totes.

If you want to talk about highest seed this robot dominates. Important to note that it's scoring abilities drop by 40 points in playoffs.

[dodar]

If you assume that the robot that stacks 3 in autonomous will then score it on the step, that's a 60 point robot at the start of the match with the capability of making stacks of 3 totes.

If you want to talk about highest seed this robot dominates. Important to note that it's scoring abilities drop by 40 points in playoffs.

It wont drop off till the finals. Co-op is still there in the Quarters and Semis.

[Caleb Sykes]

It wont drop off till the finals. Co-op is still there in the Quarters and Semis.

Not really though.

*COOPERTITION SETS and COOPERTITION STACKS will not receive points during the Playoff MATCHES.

[dodar]

Not really though.

From the Manual:

In Quarter-Finals and Semi-Finals Matches of the Playoff Tournament, each alliance earns match points as described in Section 5.3.3 Qualification Average.

That means the quarters and the semis are governed just as Qualification matches are.

[mmaunu]

From the Manual:

In Quarter-Finals and Semi-Finals Matches of the Playoff Tournament, each alliance earns match points as described in Section 5.3.3 Qualification Average.

That means the quarters and the semis are governed just as Qualification matches are.

Throughout the manual, "match points" are used to determine your qualification average. In Quarters and Semis, you do not win or lose a match; you simply earn match points and these contribute to your qualification average as they did in quals (with the exception that your average gets reset to 0 at the beginning of Quarters and Semis). This does not say that you can earn match points with coopertition sets/stacks during Quarters and Semis, merely that match points determine whether or not you move on to the next level. The rule about coopertition sets/stacks is pretty clear that you can't earn those points during the playoff matches.

[xXhunter47Xx]

I think a robot that can adapt to any situation with a drive team that can effectively perform in any situation will allow a high seed. If you can only do one specific thing I believe you'll drop down very quickly because there will be matches where alliance partners cannot carry you because they lack the skill/mechanisms to do so.

With a "jack of all trades" robot, if you can show that you can do everything very well, you have the ability to compliment any robot on the field.

[Wayne TenBrink]

Besides being good at more than one aspect of the game, the top seeds will have reliable robots that don't waste match time sitting dead due to poor electrical connections, mechanical failure, or programming issues. In early competitions, the high seeds will be the teams that finished their robot early enough to work the bugs out of their robot and give their drivers some practice.

I may be unimaginative, but I expect to see a lot of robots that look a lot like a forklift. I don't expect to see so many that work all that well.

[Nathan Streeter]

I'd say that in order to seed highest you will have to adapt to do whatever you need to do for their alliance.

The game during qualifications isn't about out-scoring your opponents anymore, it's about putting up the highest amount of points you can, consistently.

So it probably doesn't matter what you do, as long as you can score consistently and know you're not going to be sitting in a match doing nothing.

I don't think its about what you do, but how well you do it.

If you assume that the robot that stacks 3 in autonomous will then score it on the step, that's a 60 point robot at the start of the match with the capability of making stacks of 3 totes.

If you want to talk about highest seed this robot dominates. Important to note that it's scoring abilities drop by 40 points in playoffs.

Besides being good at more than one aspect of the game, the top seeds will have reliable robots that don't waste match time sitting dead due to poor electrical connections, mechanical failure, or programming issues. In early competitions, the high seeds will be the teams that finished their robot early enough to work the bugs out of their robot and give their drivers some practice.

I may be unimaginative, but I expect to see a lot of robots that look a lot like a forklift. I don't expect to see so many that work all that well.

I very much agree with these... it's most important for team's to get 'done' with something early, smooth it out, and practice with it. Pretty nearly any strategy (except only stacking totes with no ability to put an RC on top) that is implemented well can bring a team to captain an alliance.

The teams that have the top 10 or so QA's in FRC each weekend will be the ones that can stack 3 yellow totes in auto (or at least finish them quickly in teleop), put them on the step to enable the 40pt co-op, then proceed to make 2-4 stacks of 3-5 totes underneath RCs. These teams will probably have a QA of around 80-120 in the early weeks and 100-160 in the later weeks as they (and their partners) generally improve. Other teams will do well as long as they have practiced and keep the robot working smoothly.

Elims will be won by these same teams, so long as they assemble an alliance of complementary partners, make sure they don't run out of RCs, and can avoid robot failures in the finals.

[ttedrow]

"Jack of all trades, master of none" dose not mean a successful robot can't be flexible. Creating stacks with RC on top is the key to high scoring a Alliance. If your team can do this and place them on the scoring or coop platform, your team will be in control of its own destiny.

[hexane]

IMO, most "crazy robots that do everything" will not seed high because they will be less reliable. There will be the few that will excel at everything consistently, but I think betting on "jack of all trade" designs will come at a cost for most teams.