Double Decker in Duluth

[bobjones227]

Double Decker, week one, rushing to you! WHO'S READY TO RECYCLE!!!!!
If anyone has any questions about the city or venue, feel free to ask.

In addition, robot roll call? ::rtm::

[ehochstein]

I'll be volunteering! Excited to see all of the teams.

We're looking into bringing the 'Snow Problem robot up as well.

[Ginger Power]

Also volunteering! Can't wait!

[bobjones227]

Sorry for the mistake everyone, it is actually named the Double DECCer, not Decker.

[WaterClaw]

For all attending, please fill out the following survey. Your input is greatly appreciated!

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1q38QzMFUfAVDp_Ejzn0181zwLLYFF53QspyUL24zKf8/viewform?c=0&w=1

[waialua359]

The best part about this event was competing for the Double Decker trophy between the 2 regional championship alliances at the very end.:)

[MrRoboSteve]

I'll be volunteering at NL this year. 3081 won't be there -- they're going to Wisconsin and 10K Lakes.

[Christopher149]

I might be coming for half tourism, half espionage about how the game is actually played to take to our week 2 district event.

[alicen]

Got excited because there's a Duluth in GA too :(

[Doug Frisk]

I might be coming for half tourism, half espionage about how the game is actually played to take to our week 2 district event.

You can do that even better if you volunteer! I happen to know they're still looking for (or were yesterday) an inspector and a couple of Safety Advisors. Gives you a good excuse to go and visit every single pit. If you've already cleared YPP I expect if you ask you shall receive.

[Christopher149]

You can do that even better if you volunteer! I happen to know they're still looking for (or were yesterday) an inspector and a couple of Safety Advisors. Gives you a good excuse to go and visit every single pit. If you've already cleared YPP I expect if you ask you shall receive.

Well, I'm only planning to come for Saturday (no need for lodging, then), especially since I might start work that week. Maybe sometime in the future it could work out since I wouldn't be involved with the team that particular weekend. (and I'm cleared of YPP as alt. contact)

[snoman]

You can do that even better if you volunteer! I happen to know they're still looking for (or were yesterday) an inspector and a couple of Safety Advisors. Gives you a good excuse to go and visit every single pit. If you've already cleared YPP I expect if you ask you shall receive.

is there a link to register??

[cadandcookies]

is there a link to register??

Volunteering is as always through VIMS.

[ehochstein]

Volunteering is as always through VIMS.

Sometimes VIMS can be a little hard to find... especially the first time when going through the FIRST website.

You can log into VIMS here:
https://my.usfirst.org/FIRSTPortal/Login/VIMS_Login.aspx

If anyone has any questions about volunteering in Minnesota, or about the roles you can volunteer for, shoot me an email at (my username)@usfirst.org. I'll get you connected with the right people!

[Doug Frisk]

is there a link to register??

Lake Superior:
https://my.usfirst.org/FIRSTPortal/Login/VIMS_Login.aspx?eventid=13407

Northern Lights:
https://my.usfirst.org/FIRSTPortal/Login/VIMS_Login.aspx?eventid=13387

Event Coordinator:
lfshimizu (at) gmail (dot) com

Today is the last day to get your data in VIMS for a some of the key positions or they won't have time to finish the YPP before the event, so get hopping! :)

[Jon Stratis]

Definitely looking forward to Minnesota's first chance to tackle a week 1 event! Perhaps most exciting, for me, is that we're going to have 5 LRI's under one roof that weekend. I don't know of any other regional or district event that has that much experience volunteering to help teams!

[cadandcookies]

Definitely looking forward to Minnesota's first chance to tackle a week 1 event! Perhaps most exciting, for me, is that we're going to have 5 LRI's under one roof that weekend. I don't know of any other regional or district event that has that much experience volunteering to help teams!

That's very exciting! Does this mean we're getting close to having the critical mass for Districts? :P

[Doug Frisk]

That's very exciting! Does this mean we're getting close to having the critical mass for Districts? :P

I hope not. I despise the districts concept from a volunteer perspective. I'd rather see a fifth regional (Fargo/Moorhead or Rochester) than a dozen district events. I can do three weekends during competition season, but if the area goes to districts the expectation will be twice that and I can't commit to that.

[Ginger Power]

I hope not. I despise the districts concept from a volunteer perspective. I'd rather see a fifth regional (Fargo/Moorhead or Rochester) than a dozen district events. I can do three weekends during competition season, but if the area goes to districts the expectation will be twice that and I can't commit to that.

St. Cloud? I know there aren't very many teams near the Fargo Moorehead area (something I'm making an effort to change) and there are already 2 regionals in the southern MN area (Minneapolis, close enough). There is no close regional for teams located right in the middle of Minneapolis and Duluth!

[ehochstein]

I hope not. I despise the districts concept from a volunteer perspective. I'd rather see a fifth regional (Fargo/Moorhead or Rochester) than a dozen district events. I can do three weekends during competition season, but if the area goes to districts the expectation will be twice that and I can't commit to that.

I agree, the number of volunteers would need to grow. I'm extremely happy that 2512 hosted an off-season event this year as off-seasons are a great way to grow your key-volunteer base.

That being said, if Minnesota were to magically switch to districts this year, I would be curious to see if the cost would be worth the benefit. I did a quick (in retrospect, maybe not so quick) analysis using last year's numbers below

If we assume that district events have 40 teams at them, and that there are 186 teams in Minnesota, we would need 9.3 events in order to allow all teams to have two plays. That means we would need to round that number up to 10 events total (not including state championships) spaced out over 6 weeks. That would give us 400 spots for teams to compete at and there would be 28 spots left over.

If each event has a 12 qualification matches, that is 880 matches total (not including eliminations). Last year, there were 392 non-elimination matches played in Minnesota. If you take a registration fee of $5000 and divide it by the number of matches, you get a cost of $500/match for the regional system and $208.33/match for the district system.

If you were to run the district system in a FIRST Tech Challenge-type style where you have a host team that provides non-key volunteer support and a location to host the district event, I calculate you would need around 35 volunteers for each event, not including the host team volunteers. That is a total of 350 individual volunteer positions that need to be trained for and filled. If run with the assumption at all of our trained volunteers, volunteer twice in a season, that is 175 trained volunteers needed total (this number does not include state).

This is of course all hypothetically speaking and doesn't really take into account that you would need to host a couple of 2 event weekends. Nor does it take into account that we would need an official MN non-profit to run all of these events.

In the end, I think that districts in MN would be a HUGE benefit to all teams but there are a few hurdles we need to leap through before we can get there.

[Doug Frisk]

If each event has a 12 qualification matches, that is 880 matches total (not including eliminations). Last year, there were 392 non-elimination matches played in Minnesota. If you take a registration fee of $5000 and divide it by the number of matches, you get a cost of $500/match for the regional system and $208.33/match for the district system.


You forgot the 250 to 300 Thursday practice matches that were played last year in the four Minnesota regionals. There are no practice matches at district events.

[Christopher149]

You forgot the 250 to 300 Thursday practice matches that were played last year in the four Minnesota regionals. There are no practice matches at district events.

There certainly are practice matches at district events, at least here in Michigan. They aren't scheduled for specific teams, but rather it's a "show up and get on the field".

[ehochstein]

You forgot the 250 to 300 Thursday practice matches that were played last year in the four Minnesota regionals.

True, but I also did not mention that district teams receive additional un-bag time in compensation for that. In addition, most of the time the practice matches are empty and there really is no accurate way of measuring how many teams took advantage of that time on the field.

[Jon Stratis]

If you were to run the district system in a FIRST Tech Challenge-type style where you have a host team that provides non-key volunteer support and a location to host the district event, I calculate you would need around 35 volunteers for each event, not including the host team volunteers. That is a total of 350 individual volunteer positions that need to be trained for and filled. If run with the assumption at all of our trained volunteers, volunteer twice in a season, that is 175 trained volunteers needed total (this number does not include state).


Evan, your numbers are a little low. Every event requires a minimum of 10 inspectors, 15 judges, 5 or more refs, scoring, queueing... I believe we at the state tournament last year (30 teams, 1 day event) we needed over 100 volunteers to make it happen. Even if we get 50 volubteers from every "host team", we won't have enough. And as it stands, those "host team" volunteers would be inexperienced, and having that many learning on the job would lead to poor experiences for teams.

As things stand today, a disproportionate percentage of our volunteers come from the twin cities. While that would make doing a bunch of district events around here easy, going out to Fargo or La Crescent or St. Cloud or Rochester would be extremely difficult. How many volubteers are we going to require to go out for a weekend just to put on those events, especially when their teams aren't there competing?

If we really want to go to districts, and I've heard teams say they do, then we need every team to step up and give us more volunteers. Using LRI's as an example, we have 2 in the cities and one in La Crescent. A couple more prospective ones from the cities, but that's it. Despite looking, I haven't Been able to find someone appropriate from the Duluth or Fargo or St. Cloud areas. We just don't have people from those areas volunteering as inspectors very much. You would think with two regionals in Duluth we could get some local key volunteers, but most of the ones I can think of are from the cities or other areas.

So a word to all MN teams: we have almost 200 teams in the state right now, yet we get volunteers from maybe 10% oft hose teams. Give us volunteers now and we might be able to get on a path towards districts. Without Training up a bunch and having them well diversified across the state we'll never get there. This is the problem those of us attempting to recruit volunteers know we have, but when we come to the teams we just get "sorry, we don't have anyone that can do it this year" emails. You can't ask for something without helping to make it happen.

[ehochstein]

Evan, your numbers are a little low.

You're right! In my fast math, I forgot to add judges (although I remembered Judge Advisors and Judge Assistants). I updated and typed up my estimates below, do you see any other inaccuracies I could fix? Thanks!

Event Coordinator 1
Volunteer Coordinator 1
Hospitality Coordinator 1
Judge Advisor 1
FTA 1
FTAA 1
Scorekeeper 1
CSA 1
LRI 1
Field Supervisor 1
Head Referee 1
Referees 5
A/V Technical Coordinator 1
Field Supervisor Assistant 1
Field Reset 8
MC 1
Game Announcer 1
Lead Queuer 1
Queuing 4
Pit Admin 2
Spare Parts 1
Inspectors 10
Volunteer Room 2
Food Setup 3
Welcome Table/Registration 2
Photography & Social Media 2
VIP Area 2
Safety Glasses Lead 1
Safety Glasses Attendant 5
Judge Assistants 2
Judges 15

Total 80

[bachster]

You can't ask for something without helping to make it happen.

Word.

[Jon Stratis]

You're right! In my fast math, I forgot to add judges (although I remembered Judge Advisors and Judge Assistants). I updated and typed up my estimates below, do you see any other inaccuracies I could fix? Thanks!

Event Coordinator 1
Volunteer Coordinator 1
Hospitality Coordinator 1
Judge Advisor 1
FTA 1
FTAA 1
Scorekeeper 1
CSA 1
LRI 1
Field Supervisor 1
Head Referee 1
Referees 5
A/V Technical Coordinator 1
Field Supervisor Assistant 1
Field Reset 8
MC 1
Game Announcer 1
Lead Queuer 1
Queuing 4
Pit Admin 2
Spare Parts 1
Inspectors 10
Volunteer Room 2
Food Setup 3
Welcome Table/Registration 2
Photography & Social Media 2
VIP Area 2
Safety Glasses Lead 1
Safety Glasses Attendant 5
Judge Assistants 2
Judges 15

Total 80

You would have to ask Laurie, she's definitely the most knowledgeable person in the entire state when it comes to fully staffing an event. I do know, however, that one wicketkeeper is probably not enough (you want at least two sets of eyes on it to ensure there aren't mistakes), and having only 1 CSA is going to make it very rough for teams who need help. I've seen a single CSA spend an entire afternoon with just one team who was having some odd control system issues (and I was there working with them half that time too)... Without other CSA's we either would have had to abandon that team to help others or leave others waiting indefinitely.

Most of those positions need some level of experience as well. We can't just throw people into them with no on-site Training from someone experienced.

[ehochstein]

You would have to ask Laurie, she's definitely the most knowledgeable person in the entire state when it comes to fully staffing an event. I do know, however, that one wicketkeeper is probably not enough (you want at least two sets of eyes on it to ensure there aren't mistakes), and having only 1 CSA is going to make it very rough for teams who need help. I've seen a single CSA spend an entire afternoon with just one team who was having some odd control system issues (and I was there working with them half that time too)... Without other CSA's we either would have had to abandon that team to help others or leave others waiting indefinitely.

Most of those positions need some level of experience as well. We can't just throw people into them with no on-site Training from someone experienced.

Thanks for looking at them! Once the season is over, I'll certainly want to take a second look at them.

With the amount of requests for programming support I've received from MN teams this year, I certainly don't disagree with you when it comes to more than 1 CSA...

[SteveB2977]

Team 2977 - Sir Lancer Bots will be at Lake Superior (the Superior regional) once again, along with four other teams from the Seven Rivers Robotics Coalition - all Wisconsin teams.

In addition we are bringing an LRI, Game Announcer, Referee, safety glasses crew, and possibly additional volunteers. Doing everything we can to give back and to build the volunteer base in the Seven Rivers (La Crescent / La Crosse) region.

[adammiller3122]

Double Decker, week one, rushing to you! WHO'S READY TO RECYCLE!!!!!
If anyone has any questions about the city or venue, feel free to ask.

In addition, robot roll call? ::rtm::

Team 3122 here! Lake Superior Regional

Also, we will be doing the live webcast of the competition. You can find more information on http://newulmrobotics.com/webcast and also by following the twitter page @MNDU_Webcast.

[Bluejackets]

Bluejacket Robotics will be there.... Rookie team from Cambridge Isanti High School. #5464

[Shrub]

3883 will be in attendance as always, and for the first time since our rookie year, on the other side of the regional. We'll also be with all the other teams in our school district (sans Woodbury, sadly), which I find especially cool.

[Caleb Sykes]

The best part about this event was competing for the Double Decker trophy between the 2 regional championship alliances at the very end.:)

Will 359 be back anytime soon to defend their title?

If 2052, 4011, 2175, or 2502 wins the double DECCer match this year, can we call them the double Double DECCer champions? If 4011 and 2052 win together or 2175 and 2502 win together, would that pair then be the double Double DECCer double champions? :ahh:

[Bruce Newendorp]

The Swartdogs are looking forward to heading north to Duluth again. We hope the weather is nice like it was last time we were there in 2013. I recall eating lunch outside next to our bus. Many of our mentors will be there filling volunteer roles as well.

[Shrub]

Hello! It's time to probably revive an old thread, seeing as NL never got their own. This was my first time volunteering, and it was a total blast. Being field reset is really fun but also kind of difficult. Also worth it! I'd highly reccomend volunteering, even if you're just a little curious about it. #NoRegrets

Also, very loud shoutout to all the winning teams! There were so many and they were all so great. Every award counts, no matter how small! :D

[Rypsnort]

Who won the bouble decker. Lake Superior or Northern Lights what teams

[Ichlieberoboter]

It was a blast! Winning the judges award was awesome!

[nfhammes]

Who won the bouble decker. Lake Superior or Northern Lights what teams

3130, 525, and 4215!

[Caleb Sykes]

Who won the bouble decker. Lake Superior or Northern Lights what teams

Northern Lights won.
Northern Lights alliance: 3130, 525, 4215
Lake Superior alliance: 2526, 4818, 93

Final score: ~60 to ~110 in favor of Northern Lights.

[Doug Frisk]

Northern Lights won.
Northern Lights alliance: 3130, 525, 4215
Lake Superior alliance: 2526, 4818, 93

Final score: ~60 to ~110 in favor of Northern Lights.

And that was a low scoring match for 3130, 525 and 4215. They were a force to be reckoned with.

To steal a line from "A Knight's Tale" the only way to beat them is with a stick, while they sleep.

[Caleb Sykes]

And that was a low scoring match for 3130, 525 and 4215. They were a force to be reckoned with.

To steal a line from "A Knight's Tale" the only way to beat them is with a stick, while they sleep.

It was also a VERY low scoring match for the Lake Superior Alliance. 110 was pretty average for them, so they easily could have beaten Northern Lights. I agree that the Northern Lights alliance was probably better, but they weren't scoring the 150+ points I had been hearing about in this match.

[dodar]

I remember catching a few practice matches on Thursday and seeing 3130. And the ease at which they grabbed totes from the landfill made me really believe they were the best robot there. Good on them for going out and winning.

[Tom Ore]

It was also a VERY low scoring match for the Lake Superior Alliance. 110 was pretty average for them, so they easily could have beaten Northern Lights. I agree that the Northern Lights alliance was probably better, but they weren't scoring the 150+ points I had been hearing about in this match.

I suspect that neither alliance had the energy to give it their best effort. It was very late in the day and it was just an exhibition match after all. At that point we all just wanted to go home.

[LDiDomenico]

First off I would like to congratulate the winning alliance of 3130 The ERRORs, 525 The Swartdogs, and 4215 The Tritons. Your alliance was amazing and I believe you guys put up some of the highest scores of week one events. You all will go on to do great things at champs. I would also like to thank team 5172 The Gators and 4786 Nicolet F.E.A.R. for being great alliance partners. You guys definitely deserved to go to champs. Also congrats to team 2500 Herobotics for winning Engineering Inspiration and 5464 The Blue Jackets for winning Rookie All-Star. To 5464, I hope you enjoy your first time going to champs. It is truly an inspiring experience. I had a great time during my last Northern Lights Regional as a student and would like to thank all of the great volunteers at the event and all of the field crew for doing there best to get the FMS up and running.

[Amy33Amy33]

We were in the third place alliance at Northern Lights :D It was so much fun, thanks guys for the great time! (Our robot 2846 was the one that grabbed and stacked 2 totes horizontally.)

We noticed a few discrepancies between the five columns at the bottom and the total final score when scouting. Are those supposed to add up every time?

Also scouting. We did scout at Northern Lights. There are teams that have much more accurate scouting data but it's better than using the force :D We posted part of it on our website here (http://www.firebears.org/?p=876)

[Tom Ore]

We noticed a few discrepancies between the five columns at the bottom and the total final score when scouting. Are those supposed to add up every time?


I noticed this also - it's always off by some multiple of 6. (Our score average was low by 24 points for example.) I'm sure there is some reason - I don't know what it is.

[Doug Frisk]

First off I would like to congratulate the winning alliance of 3130 The ERRORs, 525 The Swartdogs, and 4215 The Tritons. Your alliance was amazing and I believe you guys put up some of the highest scores of week one events. You all will go on to do great things at champs. I would also like to thank team 5172 The Gators and 4786 Nicolet F.E.A.R. for being great alliance partners. You guys definitely deserved to go to champs. Also congrats to team 2500 Herobotics for winning Engineering Inspiration and 5464 The Blue Jackets for winning Rookie All-Star. To 5464, I hope you enjoy your first time going to champs. It is truly an inspiring experience. I had a great time during my last Northern Lights Regional as a student and would like to thank all of the great volunteers at the event and all of the field crew for doing there best to get the FMS up and running.

OK, since you're going to be Mr. Modest Minnesotan, let me add congratulations to 2512 on winning Team Spirit, Woodie Flowers, Dean's List, Chairman's and making it to the finals.

Oh, and you averaged 17.8 auton points per qualification match, which may be the high for the weekend as 624 and 987 in Texas "only" managed 14.4 and 14.0 auton points per qualification match. I still think you deserve an engineering award for that too.

[Bryan Herbst]

I noticed this also - it's always off by some multiple of 6. (Our score average was low by 24 points for example.) I'm sure there is some reason - I don't know what it is.

Do either of you have pictures of these discrepancies or remember which match(es) they occurred in?

[rich2202]

We noticed a few discrepancies between the five columns at the bottom and the total final score when scouting. Are those supposed to add up every time?


It might be:

For teams that played, or will play, 7 matches, the 3rd match does not count towards the average (only 6 matches are averaged). Seems like the column totals are for all 7 matches.

Also, foul points would affect the average, but may not be in the columns.

[Doug Frisk]

It might be:

For teams that played, or will play, 7 matches, the 3rd match does not count towards the average (only 6 matches are averaged). Seems like the column totals are for all 7 matches.

Also, foul points would affect the average, but may not be in the columns.

At Northern lights, there were 60 teams and no surrogate matches were played. The same would have been true on Lake Superior with 63 teams. Each team played 9 qualification matches and all of them should have counted towards averages.

The FRC stats page at http://frc-events.usfirst.org/2015/MNDU/rankings is not up to date. But you will notice that there is no column for fouls, and with each foul being 6 points that would explain the "off by six" issues.

[Bruce Newendorp]

Our match videos including the Double DECCer match are posted on YouTube.

http://youtu.be/Fala_TBWcpM