Warped yellow totes

[Andrew Dahlby]

We ordered a yellow tote for AndyMark. The underside lip is warped. Has anyone else noticed this?

[MrForbes]

I noticed that our yellow tote is warped, compared to our gray tote and last year's black tote.

[dellagd]

We've experienced the same issue on our gray totes. The warping was so bad that one of our prototypes that used flexible clips couldn't fit into the gap.

[Mike Marandola]

Our grey tote is like this. I am not sure about the yellow.

[PowerfulKitty]

We noticed that all 3 of the totes (all were gray) that we ordered from andymark had this issue. The totes that we got in out KoP were fine.

[GeeTwo]

We had this issue with one of our old totes. Our KOP totes and the rest of our old ones worked fine with our "hand". We don't have our lift working yet (just got the parts in), so we haven't looked that closely at the ones we bought to practice clearing the landfill and work on an auto TOTE STACK; I'll have to check them out at tomorrow's session. I wonder if a heat gun and a pry bar could get them back into shape -- at least on our old one, there's not much to lose, is there?

[Mike Marandola]

I wonder if a heat gun and a pry bar could get them back into shape -- at least on our old one, there's not much to lose, is there?

These inconsistencies might be a problem if a team's tote grabber relies on the side lips. It could work great on the team's flawless totes but might run into trouble if there are warped totes at an event.

[XaulZan11]

This is unacceptable. You would think that with all the time and money that goes into FIRST that they would get game piece that has no variation and functions brand new without need of heat guns or pry bars. For all the talk about wanting to become like the major sports, you'd never see this from the pros.

EDIT: I guess some people missed the sarcasm..

[Foster]

So I'm guessing that your robot-builder-cave does not have TV or Internet, you've missed an entire week of "Inflategate" in the NFL :rolleyes:

[MrBasse]

This is unacceptable. You would think that with all the time and money that goes into FIRST that they would get game piece that has no variation and functions brand new without need of heat guns or pry bars. For all the talk about wanting to become like the major sports, you'd never see this from the pros.

Inflategate? Deflategate? Whatever it is, the NFL and NBA both inflate to a "feeling" and MLB has a person that rubs each ball with a special mixture of dirt pregame. Not every pro sport ball is the same. Hockey and golf are the few that win in the consistency department.

I don't know how this wouldn't be expected though. If you were around for 2012, think about the difference in stiffness of foam balls. Or 2013 after one team got their shooter on a frisbee it was never the same again. Build tolerance into your design so this isn't an issue and it won't be an issue.

[IndySam]

This is unacceptable. You would think that with all the time and money that goes into FIRST that they would get game piece that has no variation and functions brand new without need of heat guns or pry bars. For all the talk about wanting to become like the major sports, you'd never see this from the pros.

I completely disagree, variations in game pieces has been part of the engineering challenge many times.

[tr6scott]

I think Game Piece variation is part of the design challenge...

[Gdeaver]

Also look at the bottom. Some are flat, some are convex, concave, and a combo. This affects the velocity leaving the chute and the bounce on impact. Loading from the human player station needs to deal with this.

[Tungrus]

We ordered a yellow tote for AndyMark. The underside lip is warped. Has anyone else noticed this?

No wonder yellow totes are expensive than gray ones!

Game piece and field variation are part and parcel of every sport, unless every event carries calibrated and reliable measuring apparatus.

[Joe Derrick]

We are going to be bringing our pressure gauge to make sure the totes are inflated to between 12.5 -13.5 psi climatic conditions not withstanding. #deflategate

[RonnieS]

I haven't seen a tote that we got bad enough where our finger prototype couldn't get into the little lip...maybe some of you guys got the worst of the worst?
-Ronnie

[pfreivald]

Game piece variation is something you absolutely must design for, and that's been true for as long as I've been doing FIRST (and presumably about a decade longer!)

[GeeTwo]

I haven't seen a tote that we got bad enough where our finger prototype couldn't get into the little lip...maybe some of you guys got the worst of the worst?
-Ronnie
Our design (until now) has 10-32 bolts sticking up from a piece of c-channel, mounted in individual springs. We really need about 1/4" of clearance for this to work. When we just had one old warped tote (probably one we inherited from a defunct team), we assumed it had been left out in the Louisiana sun for too long. If they're shipping this way, and in at least one case the whole set was like this, it raises the possibility that all the totes at regional might be like this. I suspect we're back to the drawing board.

THANKS CD!

[orangemoore]

The one thing I was concerned about this year was the lip/handle everyone was attracted. The first problem I saw was by the time we see competition in week 6 totes on the field will be warped. The handles could be bent out or worse. The only real constant is the general shape of the tote and recycling bin.

[GeeTwo]

What's the narrowest gap anyone has seen? We have about 5/32" at the narrowest point on ours.

[MrForbes]

We have a 1/8" thick "grabber". I guess we'll see how it does...

[Bryan Herbst]

The one thing I was concerned about this year was the lip/handle everyone was attracted. The first problem I saw was by the time we see competition in week 6 totes on the field will be warped. The handles could be bent out or worse. The only real constant is the general shape of the tote and recycling bin.

Keep in mind that FIRST always ships extra game pieces to regionals. Each regional should get some new game pieces so they can take out any particularly bad ones. If your team feels as though a game piece on the playing field has been damaged enough by previous use that it warrants being replaced, let the field supervisor know.

Be aware that this doesn't apply to variation from the manufacturing process- unless a tote is significantly malformed due to an obvious manufacturing error, it probably wont be replaced.

[JamesCH95]

Interesting observation. I will check ours tonight and see what it looks like!

Keep in mind that FIRST always ships extra game pieces to regionals. Each regional should get some new game pieces so they can take out any particularly bad ones. If your team feels as though a game piece on the playing field has been damaged enough by previous use that it warrants being replaced, let the field supervisor know.

Be aware that this doesn't apply to variation from the manufacturing process- unless a tote is significantly malformed due to an obvious manufacturing error, it probably wont be replaced.

In a few games I have pointed out game pieces that were damaged (not horribly, but still damaged) or obviously out of spec (this happened all the time in 2011). My mentioning these observations has never resulted in a game piece being changed out.

[MrForbes]

I wonder when we'll get the word that some of the game pieces are going to be a different model, because they ran out of the right ones and can't get them any longer? :p

[Gregor]

Interesting observation. I will check ours tonight and see what it looks like!



In a few games I have pointed out game pieces that were damaged (not horribly, but still damaged) or obviously out of spec (this happened all the time in 2011). My mentioning these observations has never resulted in a game piece being changed out.

Then the field supervisor at your events needs to step up their game. Whenever a team has brought me a suspect game piece (as a ref or field reset) I've verified that it is in fact out of spec, then I've brought it up to the field supervisor to approve a replacement.

[Nathan Streeter]

Interesting observation. I will check ours tonight and see what it looks like!

In a few games I have pointed out game pieces that were damaged (not horribly, but still damaged) or obviously out of spec (this happened all the time in 2011). My mentioning these observations has never resulted in a game piece being changed out.

Then the field supervisor at your events needs to step up their game. Whenever a team has brought me a suspect game piece (as a ref or field reset) I've verified that it is in fact out of spec, then I've brought it up to the field supervisor to approve a replacement.

Without a real spec, I can see totes rarely being removed unless they are *very* severely damaged (i.e., lip bent outwards completely at ~75+deg, hole punched in side, massive dent)... really it'll just boil down to how sympathetic your ref/field supervisor is and what they have for spares.

As a sidenote, can I just say how fantastic it is that this is a game piece which teams will actually have a real use for at the end of the year! That said, 2014 balls and 2013 discs were actually fairly useful at the end of the year... a vast improvement over 2009 'moon rocks' anyway.

[nixiebunny]

I also saw that warping in the lip area on the tote that we got last year's KOP in. We plan to make the hook extra-narrow and tapered to accommodate it.

It's very good that we got to experience totes with warped lips now, rather than assume that none of them would be warped.

[Jarren Harkema]

As far as I can tell, the warping is cause by the way they are shipped. When we got our 3 yellows and 1 grey, they were nested, with the yellow lids opened and strapped to the sides. The only thing I can think of is that the hinge points were pressing on the lips due to the tightness of the straps. Neither kit tote had this issue. So far we haven't had to much issue with our lip picker.

[MrRoboSteve]

I asked. (https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/274/what-criteria-will-be-used-by-the-field-supervisor-to-determine-that-a-tote-or-recycling-container-should-be-permanently-removed-from-play-example-1-totes-have-features-flanges-handles-below-the)


Q. What criteria will be used by the field supervisor to determine that a tote or recycling container should be permanently removed from play? Example 1: totes have features (flanges, handles) below the lid on the container base. If those features are cracked or missing, will a tote be considered playable? Example 2: the handle on a recycling container is cracked completely through, but still attached to the container. Is it playable?

A. Section 2.3 describes major feature damage as cause for a TOTE or RECYCLING CONTAINER to be rendered unsuitable for gameplay. Handles are considered a major feature, and if gone or severely damaged, will render a game element unsuitable for gameplay. "TOTES will be removed from play if, in the judgment of the Head Referee, the TOTE is unsuitable for gameplay. Examples include but are not limited to: lids broken off, large cracks that weaken rigidity, and large holes" and "RECYCLING CONTAINERS will be removed from play if, in the judgment of the Head Referee, the RECYCLING CONTAINER is unsuitable for gameplay. Examples include but are not limited to: lids broken off, large cracks that weaken rigidity, and large holes." We can't answer your question precisely, because it depends on the exact condition of the TOTE or RECYCLING CONTAINER and the judgement of the Head Referee. In general, if a feature has minor cracks or damage, the element itself will still be considered eligible for gameplay.


My personal reading on this:

1. don't rely on the shape of the features on the long edge of the tote, particularly the presence or absence of vertical flanges.
2. The supply of totes at the competition won't be unlimited, so "suitability" will ultimately resolve to "play the best ones we have". Those participating in later weeks of the competition can pay attention to week 1 and adjust accordingly.

[dgilbueno]

I'm pretty sure if all the game pieces were the exact same for every competition it would make the competition considerably easier, which I don't think is what they are trying to do. :rolleyes:

[Michael Corsetto]

#totegate