Most in-demand robot type?

[NHoffmann]

Which robot type do you think will be the most-demanded come time for Championships? OR in other words, which would be the highest on your pick list?

RC Step grabber/capper, RC capper only, landfill-loading stacker, human player-loading stacker, RC Capper and stacker, or all-around?

[EricLeifermann]

I voted for landfill stacker though I would want them to have the ability to also grab RCs off the step in auto.

[Kevin Leonard]

I think this set of robot roles is a little too restrictive.

[Ken Best]

Being that most robots are HUGE compared to previous years, consumed field area also makes a major factor. In MAR, 223's robot reaches out 9' ( from the front, then another 42" to the rear. Three of the same style robots on the field may simply not work. I think that 3 different style robots may simply be a field requirement.

[GeeTwo]

I agree that the "style" of robot will be a major consideration for many alliance selections; a good alliance must complement each other. An alliance of three robots that each do well at every part of this game would be smoked by three specialists that do different things extremely well. An optimum trio would be something like:

A "chuter" that does a tote stack in auto and scores five stacks of six totes from the cute on the front scoring platform in teleop.
An RC specialist - pulls two off the step and into the auto zone. In teleop, gets seven RCs littered at the HP station, and scored atop stacks of 6 totes.
A landfill miner with RC grabber. It just gets two RCs off the step into the auto zone in autonomous. In teleop, it moves the stack of yellow totes to the step then efficiently moves totes from the landfill and step to the back scoring platform.

And, of course, if one of these teams had an HP who could get the three remaining pieces of litter across the field, that would be another 12 point bonus.

[NHoffmann]

I think this set of robot roles is a little too restrictive.

Noted. If I ever do another one of these at some point after this week's competition, I'll expand the set. Until then, if you could put the type of robot that would be highest on your pick list in the comments, that would be awesome.

[Koko Ed]

1114.
There will be no other robot like it and everybody wants it on their alliance.

[NHoffmann]

1114.
There will be no other robot like it and everybody wants it on their alliance.

Haha, I think that may be considered all-around. Just way better than most other all-arounds.

[Abhishek R]

It really doesn't matter whether your alliance composition is optimal or not if you can grab the cans off the step before the other alliance so long as your alliance can make 4 or 5 stacks to win. What a broken game mechanic.

And on the topic of "all around" vs "specialists" - by CMP, the best "all arounds" will be able to make 3 stacks by themselves, they can then pick another team like them. What happens if your dedicated can robot has trouble in a match? Your tote robot? Minor point, but at least the well rounded alliance has insurance.

[Nemo]

Here's what I think about Worlds alliances:

1) One robot doing 3 tote auto stack (plus 3 bin set if they can do it) with the other two robots racing to pull two cans each during auto

2) All three robots can collect and stack totes effectively, with at least one being a landfill specialist and at least one being a human loading specialist

3) Either all of the robots are capable of capping their own stacks, or one of the stacking robots is capable of quickly picking up bins and capping one other teams' stacks.

[Boltman]

The answer will vary by the robot you have. Obviously you pick what you yourself cannot do yet or a well as another partner.

[Nathan Streeter]

Here's what I think about Worlds alliances:

1) One robot doing 3 tote auto stack (plus 3 bin set if they can do it) with the other two robots racing to pull two cans each during auto

2) All three robots can collect and stack totes effectively, with at least one being a landfill specialist and at least one being a human loading specialist

3) Either all of the robots are capable of capping their own stacks, or one of the stacking robots is capable of quickly picking up bins and capping one other teams' stacks.

This.

[NHoffmann]

The answer will vary by the robot you have. Obviously you pick what you yourself cannot do yet or a well as another partner.

Yep. I made this poll to gauge where some teams were strong, and what other teams could do to maximize their chances of working well with a majority of other teams and being selected eventually.

[Nemo]

I suppose I could also see this as a viable alternate Worlds alliance strategy:

One robot races for two green cans, and the other two robots race for one can each, then all three robots make capped stacks.

The alliance leaves the yellow totes behind the alliance wall, opening up a bit of field room while forfeiting those 20 points in favor of winning or tying the green can race more reliably.

Edit: To answer the original question, I think the most in demand robot will be a landfill stacker that also grabs two recycle cans in auto. Essentially I agree with exactly what Eric said above.

[NHoffmann]

I suppose I could also see this as a viable alternate Worlds alliance strategy:

One robot races for two green cans, and the other two robots race for one can each, then all three robots make capped stacks.

The alliance leaves the yellow totes behind the alliance wall, opening up a bit of field room while forfeiting those 20 points in favor of winning or tying the green can race more reliably.

Edit: To answer the original question, I think the most in demand robot will be a landfill stacker that also grabs two recycle cans in auto. Essentially I agree with exactly what Eric said above.

That definitely seems like a viable strategy. We may have to change our bot to pick up from the landfill... Right now, we can only pick up well from the human player, and cap if necessary.

[IronicDeadBird]

Going with the robots body type being small. Been noticing a lot of robots with giant footprints out on the field stepping on some toes. Definitely going to say efficient at 3 stacks. I want to go out there and put a prediction down for noodle pickup mechanisms are going to become more popular as we go along and liter clean up might actually become a role on a team comp.

[barn34]

I voted for landfill stacker though I would want them to have the ability to also grab RCs off the step in auto.

You called, Eric? ;)

Unfortunately, we won't be able to make Wisconsin this year because of CIR also being week 4. Alas, looks like we'll just have to hook up in St. Louis this year. Best of luck, guys! We'll be rooting for you!

[EricLeifermann]

You called, Eric? ;)

Unfortunately, we won't be able to make Wisconsin this year because of CIR also being week 4. Alas, looks like we'll just have to hook up in St. Louis this year. Best of luck, guys! We'll be rooting for you!

Definitely wish we could play together this year. Maybe at champs, should we qualify.

Awesome job down in AR.

[CJ_Elliott]

Haha, I think that may be considered all-around. Just way better than most other all-arounds.
But guys.... 1114 can't do coop.

[Hallry]

But guys.... 1114 can't do coop.

They don't need to.

[The other Gabe]

I think that my team's type of robot (can burglar that works from landfill) is the most wanted, but I suppose that being ranked 17th and not being picked at the PNW district might say otherwise

[Andrew Lawrence]

From my experiences watching matches, my ideal alliance would look something like this:

- 1 robot with a ramp that runs a 3 tote auto and grabs a bin in the process, loads from ramp at a human player station, and makes 6 tall stacks with bins and litter on them by itself

- 1 robot with a fast 2 recycling container auto whose sole job after auto is to make full 6 stacks of totes using the landfill and the other human player station once the landfill is empty

- 1 robot with a fast 2 recycling container auto whose sole job after auto is to fill the 4 recycling containers gained from auto with litter and cap the stacks made by the robot that only stacks totes

I see this as the most effective way to utilize all three robots on an alliance without getting in the way of each other and accomplishing the most scoring objectives in the least amount of time. Ideally the ramp robot makes three full stacks and uses the three recycling containers in the staging area to cap them, the tote-stacking-only robot makes four full stacks, and the capping-bot uses the four recycling containers from the step (filled with noodles) to cap those four stacks made by the tote-stacking-only bot. 314 points.

What I like about this style of play is that you don't need an alliance of elite level robots to accomplish this. Most of the mid to top tier ramp bots should be able to get 3 capped stacks by champs. Most teams will be able to get fast center recycling container grabbers (maybe not the fastest, but fast will work for *most* teams). A robot dedicated just to stacking totes should be able to easily empty the landfill and then some (We mostly do this during our last two qualification matches at Ventura, and I would say that at that time we were performing at a completely reachable level to most teams attending championships), and most capping robots should be able to cap four stacks. This kind of strategy is completely viable for many alliances who push for it, and it doesn't even require any pro-level science.

[EricH]

I'd go 1114, 148, and any really fast canburglar that can fold up in a nice quiet corner (especially if it has a built-in ramp so they can feed out of the OTHER player station), OR flip the upside-down totes if it's got a clear-ish shot. Gotta keep 1114 busy somehow...

That is all.

[ThePancakeMan]

Throughout the competitions I have attended so far it seems most robots are able to efficiently make stacks of totes very fast. The issue comes when the robot needs to place the stack or add a can to their stack. Being able to have the utility of capping a 6 stacks for an alliance member as well as being able to get 2 of the cans of the step will surely make you a viable pick for finals.

[stuart2054]

It certainly depends on what compliments you need. We do a 28 point solo auto (when we can get the 3 bin) we almost always get the 20 point stack but sometimes miss the 3rd bin. We also use a ramp and stack at a human station and can do a couple of 6 point stacks reliably. Having said that we would be looking for another good human player stacker and landfill/canburgular auto machine or canburgular bin capper specialist.

[EricLeifermann]

What I'll be looking for at championships from 2826's perspective, seeing as we have the most consistent 28 point auto(27.6 avg auto score this past weekend).

1st round: 2 canburgler landfill specialist, who can make 3-4 stacks of 6 with the cans they stole with litter in said cans
2nd round: 2 canburgler who can manipulate cans and get litter in them and either set them down for others to stack or place on 6 tote stacks
3rd round: Robot that can potentially supplement any of the 3 robots should something happen and they need to be called in.

That would put the alliance score at 304(28+42*4+36*3) should everything go to plan. Potential for more should more stacks be created without cans and we start noodeling our RC's we stack with.

[evanperryg]

But guys.... 1114 can't do coop.
Many of the top-tier teams this year would rather complete another stack than waste the time driving to the step, dropping off the totes, and returning to their preferred loading location. The only way I think high-tier teams will be directly participating in co-op is by putting the stack together and passing it to an alliance partner to score.

[carpedav000]

Where does everyone stand with robots that can't stack very much, but can very effectively cap stacks?

[ThePancakeMan]

If they can cap a stack of six I see them as being valuable picks for an alliance. A bot that can quickly stack totes pared with a bot that just has to wait and cap off the stack seems to be a good alliance in my eyes. Bots that are good at getting tote stacks (from what I have seen) waste a ton of their time chasing cans around the field. If instead both bots can just focus on their own task they have the ability to complete 36/42 point stacks alot faster.

[Harman341]

The number 1 and 2 seeds at worlds will probably be able to make 3 stacks of 6,
but at least 2. It takes 7 RC's and 5 capped 6 stacks to win basically every match. 4 would win you the majority especially with a 28 point auto. The 1 seed really just needs to pick a robot that can make 2 capped stacks, or maybe even 1, The most important part is the 7 RC's. Competitions really haven't been that deep this year. So worlds will be the first time all 3 robots on the field will be able to make capped stacks 4+ high. The demand on stacking may not be that great.

That all just means RC grabber = desirable

Capping robots depend on the alliance. As an alliance captain I wouldn't be looking for a tote stacking container capping robot combo. However, if I saw a great RC grabber attached to a capper, a tote stacker would be a great 3rd pick, or vice versa.

[Clayton Summerall]

118-1114-4587

[carpedav000]

If they can cap a stack of six I see them as being valuable picks for an alliance. A bot that can quickly stack totes pared with a bot that just has to wait and cap off the stack seems to be a good alliance in my eyes. Bots that are good at getting tote stacks (from what I have seen) waste a ton of their time chasing cans around the field. If instead both bots can just focus on their own task they have the ability to complete 36/42 point stacks alot faster.

Well, it takes us a while to cap 6-stacks. But we can cap 5-stacks as fast as you can (pun intended) make 'em!

[The other Gabe]

Where does everyone stand with robots that can't stack very much, but can very effectively cap stacks?

Useful in the right situations: VERY useful in the right situations.

unfortunately those correct situations are hard to find (1987's conveyor bot is a great example of a good one)

[Kpchem]

I think that my team's type of robot (can burglar that works from landfill) is the most wanted, but I suppose that being ranked 17th and not being picked at the PNW district might say otherwise

For what it's worth, I was shocked that you guys were not picked. And I'm looking forward to seeing what you can do in St. Louis.

I agree with you though, I think a landfill stacker that has a consistent RC grabber will be the most sought after bot at Worlds. From what I have seen a lot of the top tier stackers are best from the feeder station, and therefore after they pair up they will need a third bot to mine the landfill after snagging a recycling container or two.

[rahulbekal]

According to the rules the higher seed in eliminations may wait for the other alliance to place their robots before placing theirs. This would allow for example a alliance captain who does 3 or 4 capped stacks to have the first pick robot of its alliance to go against the second pick robot on the opposing alliance assuming that robots were picked upon speed of can burglar. Then the second pick would go against the opposing alliances first pick. If both alliances do in fact pick by speed of can burglar then wouldn't the alliancea be even on cans?

[Kevin Leonard]

According to the rules the higher seed in eliminations may wait for the other alliance to place their robots before placing theirs. This would allow for example a alliance captain who does 3 or 4 capped stacks to have the first pick robot of its alliance to go against the second pick robot on the opposing alliance assuming that robots were picked upon speed of can burglar. Then the second pick would go against the opposing alliances first pick. If both alliances do in fact pick by speed of can burglar then wouldn't the alliancea be even on cans?

By the "higher seed in eliminations", you mean the higher numbered seed. But even that isn't accurate. Whichever Alliance on the field is the blue Alliance gets precedence over the red Alliance. That means whichever Alliance entered that round of advancement as the underdog gets to place their robots second. Teams going into finals are actually incentivised to score the minimum point threshold to advance so they can choose their Canburglar position going into finals.

[MamaSpoldi]

By the "higher seed in eliminations", you mean the higher numbered seed. But even that isn't accurate. Whichever Alliance on the field is the blue Alliance gets precedence over the red Alliance. That means whichever Alliance entered that round of advancement as the underdog gets to place their robots second. Teams going into finals are actually incentivised to score the minimum point threshold to advance so they can choose their Canburglar position going into finals.

Actually, according to the manual the red and blue sides of the field are based on the alliance seed rather than the qualifying rank/average from the previous playoff level.

5.4.4 Playoff MATCH Format
...
The higher seeded ALLIANCE will always be assigned to the Red side of the FIELD.
...

But I was surprised to see that the lower ranked alliance gets to place their robot last so I double checked that too. I guess I was mis-remembering that rule.

If order placement of ROBOTS matters to either or both ALLIANCES, the ALLIANCE must notify the Head REFEREE during setup for that
MATCH. Upon notification, the Head REFEREE will require ALLIANCES to alternate placement of their ROBOTS, starting with the Red
ALLIANCE.

[rahulbekal]

Actually, according to the manual the red and blue sides of the field are based on the alliance seed rather than the qualifying rank/average from the previous playoff level.

Alliances are reseeded after each playoff level. And overall with alternating robots placed on the field wouldn't the end result in a trade of cans, unless a second pick can beat a first pick.

[Kevin Leonard]

Alliances are reseeded after each playoff level. And overall with alternating robots placed on the field wouldn't the end result in a trade of cans, unless a second pick can beat a first pick.

Or the Alliance with the better Canburglar plays to the minimum advancement point threshold going into finals and ends up able to place their better Canburglar against the opponents better Canburglar and possibly gets all four.

Recycle Rush is one wacky game.

[MamaSpoldi]

Alliances are reseeded after each playoff level. And overall with alternating robots placed on the field wouldn't the end result in a trade of cans, unless a second pick can beat a first pick.

Where does it say that? I don't see it in the rules.

[pntbll1313]

Where does it say that? I don't see it in the rules.

It is shown in Figure 5-2 of the game manual, although it's not exactly clear. The 8 original alliances are listed as A1, A2... A8. After quarter finals they are advanced in order of average. The highest average score of the quarter finals becomes Q1, followed by Q2, Q3, Q4, which essentially reseeds everyone. The same thing is repeated for finals where they are seeded as S1, and S2.

Section 5.4.4 shows how the rounds will be played and calls out the alliances by their new seed numbers as teams advance.

[RoboAlum]

So what about a landfill bot that is only able to get one RC in auto but has the capability to clear out the left side landfill by making stacks of 2 along the left scoring platform and able to get the totes off the step, would that be a 3rd pick bot. I mean cause I know every great team has the ability to either get 1 or 2 RCs in auto. I mean it does cut the rate another team has to do from 6 to only 4 with an RC.

[Abhishek R]

Where does it say that? I don't see it in the rules.

Reseeding definitely happens. We went into the finals at Dallas as the red alliance, despite playing against the number one alliance as part of the number two alliance.

[MamaSpoldi]

Thanks for the clarifications. I hadn't noticed that at the events where we competed.

[CR1305Mascotte]

our robot can grab cans off of the step and score them up to 5 tote stacks high and we attended the GTR east, Waterloo, and the North Bay regionals and at every single one we were either picked or in picking position:) :rolleyes:

[MaGiC_PiKaChU]

our robot can grab cans off of the step and score them up to 5 tote stacks high and we attended the GTR east, Waterloo, and the North Bay regionals and at every single one we were either picked or in picking position:) :rolleyes:

if you attend champs, you will have to find a pure stacking bot for your alliance. All the top teams will be doing everything by themselves, and i don't think they will need an extra capper because most top teams will stack a few 6-stacks each (although your can burgling abilities might come in handy.)

This said, if you get matched with a pure stacking bot in 1st or 2nd pick, you will have to score higher using stacks of 5 totes, against 6-high stacks :ahh:

[SoccerTaco]

As has been discussed over and over, Einstein could be decided in the first second of the match if one side gets the majority of the cans from the step.

But let's assume each alliance pulls 2 cans from the step - then what strategy becomes important? What abilities are needed by alliance members?

For the 5 cans an alliance does have, they will clearly need to milk every point possible out of them - so 6 totes high and noodled for each of those 5 stacks is mandatory. But that is only 30 totes.

So the ability to clear the feeder totes and the landfill totes becomes important. Do the step totes then become decisive? Is that a second arms race that the top teams are planning for? Or maybe noodle throwers? Or litter pushers (to get thrown noodles to the landfill)? Auton? What becomes the important factors for an alliance?

[K-Dawg157]

In the competitions our team went to, and I can definitely see this carrying over into champs, Can burglaring and a stacked tote set in autonomous were the biggest factors.

So, if it came down to each side having the same amount of recycling cans, I think it would come down to the autonomous, and which side has a tote stacked set.

[g_sawchuk]

Depends on the captain. Any kind of robot can be a captain when it gets to champs if they do their job well. It just depends what suits them. Like 1114 would want:
-Capper/bin grabber
-HP stacker

Really comes down to the captain.

[M1KRONAUT]

Feeder-loading stackers won pretty much everything, so I'd say they'd be pretty in-demand.

[Abhishek R]

In the competitions our team went to, and I can definitely see this carrying over into champs, Can burglaring and a stacked tote set in autonomous were the biggest factors.

So, if it came down to each side having the same amount of recycling cans, I think it would come down to the autonomous, and which side has a tote stacked set.

I would be surprised if the Einstein alliances didn't have a tote stack in autonomous, or at least the ability; forgoing it altogether is another story.

[KrazyCarl92]

Imagine a robot that grabs two containers off the step every single time in autonomous faster than any other team in the world (or division), then does nothing else the rest of the match.

A number one seeded team at world champs is likely putting up 2-4 full stacks on their own every single match. I would guess that a team capable of putting up 2 full stacks could potentially be around as a 24th selection, and the 25th selection will be just about as effective.

There is a tremendous incentive for the number 1 seed to select the "grabs containers-does nothing" robot because they can probably still put up 5 or 6 full stacks as an alliance even with a "do nothing in teleop" robot because they can put up 2-4 stacks and the other alliance partner can put up 2 stacks. And with 4 team alliances, they can sub in the really fast auto RC grabber when they need them and sub the team out when they can safely get the cans otherwise and could use a "contribute something in teleop" robot with a slightly slower (but still sufficiently fast to win the race) step grabber.

Now consider that any team with the resources to be the fastest team in the world at grabbing RC's from the step in auto is likely to also be able to do something during teleop to contribute to the alliance. Now change your "grabs containers-does nothing robot" to a "grabs containers-holds their own" robot, and you can see the scales are tipped even more in their favor.

Now the assumptions about the abilities of the "200th best team" at the world championship and there being an auto RC grabber which beats all other RC grabbers in the division cut and dry are probably inaccurate to certain degrees. But I still cannot see how this singular trait would not overwhelm all other considerations for alliance selection criteria given that there are two more members of the alliance that could be effective robots.

[carpedav000]

On the topic of canburglars, would anyone be kind enough to tell me the minimum width of a 2-can arm going for the holes in the top?

[Bryce Paputa]

On the topic of canburglars, would anyone be kind enough to tell me the minimum width of a 2-can arm going for the holes in the top?

The centers of the holes are sixty eight inches apart.

[carpedav000]

The centers of the holes are sixty eight inches apart.

Thank you for the information, good sir.

[apache8080]

I believe the most in demand robot type is a robot that can do the following:
-grab two cans off the bridge in under a second
-lift cans to the top of the human player station and get noodles
-pickup cans from either orientation
-place cans in either orientation

A robot like this is the perfect fit with a top alliance like 1114 and 2056 or 254 and 118. The strategy that would work with these robots is 118 and this robot, team XXXX, will grab the 4 cans off the bridge while 254 would do the 3 tote stack in autonomous. In teleop 118 and 254 would take there first can and begin making their stacks while team XXXX takes the other cans, puts noodles in them, and then places the noodle filled cans in the location that both 118 and 254 would like them to place them and in the right orientation of course.