Use of Timeouts

[MrJohnston]

Alas... in the finals in our district event, the two strongest robots on our alliance had some mechanical issues. We attempted to use a timeout four minutes before our match was supposed to begin, but were told, "It would only give you one minute beyond the scheduled starting time because it is only a five minute time out." So, we asked if we could wait three minutes to use it and were told, "No, that would be an intentional delay of game."

My question: What good, then, is a five minute time out if it does not actually give you more time to do what you have to do?

[Steven Smith]

Section 5.5.6 of the game manual explains this with a high level of detail as well as a graphic.

Short version is that you have a 2 minute window after the field reset signal to submit your coupon that will generate a 6 minute timeout (is it 5 for districts?) from when you submit it. It doesn't get tacked onto the end of "normal field reset time" for an additional 6 minutes.

The benefit is still there, but it isn't as substantial as one may like.

[Fields]

Why not just make it a two minute time out regardless of when it is submitted then. Saying it is 5 minutes feels a bit misleading to me.

[Bryan Herbst]

Why not just make it a two minute time out regardless of when it is submitted then. Saying it is 5 minutes feels a bit misleading to me.

There are multiple types of timeouts- FIELD TIMEOUTS and TIMEOUTS (from an ALLIANCE).

Regardless of which type of timeout is called, the timeout is 6 minutes long.

An alliance can call a TIMEOUT. If there is no FIELD TIMEOUT happening at the time, then it is a 6 minute timeout. If a FIELD TIMEOUT is currently in progress, then you have up to two minutes to submit a TIMEOUT, which gives you 6 minutes from when you submit the timeout coupon. This means that a break in gameplay can be up to 8 minutes long depending on how the timeouts are called.

If we went with your proposal of making it a two minute timeout proposal, then an alliance calling an (ALLIANCE) TIMEOUT would only get 2 minutes instead of 6 if there is no FIELD TIMEOUT happening at the time.

Furthermore, since the clock for a TIMEOUT called by an alliance starts when you submit your coupon (see T17), it isn't a guaranteed extra 2 minutes. If you submit your coupon 1 minute into a FIELD TIMEOUT, then the total break will be 7 minutes.

[MrJohnston]

So, effectively, an alliance timeout will never buy us more than 2 extra minutes to repair damage... I did misread the rule.

[Brandon Ha]

While this rule did negate the effective length of the repair period that is afforded for alliances in elimination rounds, it does prevent scenarios akin to Silicon Valley Regional from 2014 with refs allowed for an additional two minutes to sort out any faulties of communications between the two groups.

[Knufire]

Only if there is a FIELD TIMEOUT. FIELD TIMEOUTs are typically called when an alliance would need to play back to back matches, such as the finals. If there is no scheduled FIELD TIMEOUT, a TIMEOUT called by an alliance would give them six minutes before the match starts.

[Steven Smith]

It is generally more than just an additional 2 minutes. The time the field reset is issued (after the head ref indicates scores are tallied and people can enter the field) to the start of the next match is variable, but this year should be in the 2-4 minute range, versus ~8 minutes if you submitted a timeout request at the end of the allowable window.

The FIELD TIMEOUT is not the "normal turn around time" between matches. It is called if there is a field issue that needs to be resolved, or if teams would have to play back to back matches in < 5-6 minutes (can't find the reference), such as during a finals match.

I'm not 100% sure of the rationale behind the rule, but I see at least one advantage of doing it this way. If you just tacked on 6 minutes to the end of the "field reset", from the second you notify the field staff to the second they are complete with their reset, they are knowingly providing a team an advantage. This isn't to say it WOULD occur, but doing it this way removes any suspicion of a slower than average field reset to benefit a team that has called a time-out. As to why it won't stack with a FIELD TIMEOUT, I could just guess that it is a value argument over affording a team an extra 6 minutes, versus having potentially ~13-15 minutes of dead time between finals matches, which is tough on a crowd.

It sounds like in your situation, you were already in a FIELD TIMEOUT situation from a finals level match turn-around, and either the district rules are for a 5 minute timeout, or the referee incorrectly thought it was a 5 minute timeout versus a 6 minute. Your best best would have been to use it at the end of the 2 minute field reset window for a net gain of 2 minutes versus losing it altogether. In many other situations it would be worth between 4 to 6 minutes to your team.

[Chris is me]

So, effectively, an alliance timeout will never buy us more than 2 extra minutes to repair damage... I did misread the rule.

In the finals, yes. In the semi or quarterfinals, since there isn't a FIELD TIMEOUT, it buys you a lot more.

[MrJohnston]

There was no field time out.

[BigJ]

There was no field time out.
If you were between finals matches, there was a FIELD TIMEOUT. If it was before the first finals match and none of the finals teams were in the previous match, there may not have been one, in which case you have to use your TIMEOUT within 2 minutes of the field reset signal of the last semifinal.

[dodar]

There was no field time out.

In between back to back matches, is there not supposed to be a 5 minute break? Did you guys not have that?

[rich2202]

In the finals, yes. In the semi or quarterfinals, since there isn't a FIELD TIMEOUT, it buys you a lot more.

Between SF2 and SF3, Q3 plays back to back, so there is an automatic field timeout.
Similarly, between SF4 and SF5, Q4 plays back to back, so there is another automatic field timeout.

[Siri]

Between SF2 and SF3, Q3 plays back to back, so there is an automatic field timeout.
Similarly, between SF4 and SF5, Q4 plays back to back, so there is another automatic field timeout.This year. These rules are much older than the 2014 game and will almost certainly outlive it significantly.

Field timeouts occur between all back-to-backs matches (for one or both alliances). Alliance timeouts do not cascade, which enables the coupon to create the same situation for each alliance regardless of when it is used during the elim/playoff tournament (7:59 minutes if you call it at the 1:59 mark after the preceding field reset).

[BigJ]

This may vary by region, volunteer crew, or competition, but are FIELD TIMEOUTS displayed on the screen or alliance wall timers? Or a count from the field reset signal? Do head refs start a stopwatch after each field reset signal in elims?

It would be to an alliance's benefit to wait until 1:59, much like coaches and players in other sports can watch clocks and call timeouts at specific/final points. Heck, sometimes you see people standing right in front of refs for a while, but making the "T" at the last second!

[Bryan Herbst]

This may vary by region, volunteer crew, or competition, but are FIELD TIMEOUTS displayed on the screen or alliance wall timers?

All timeouts appear on the timers on the alliance walls.

Whether or not they appear on the big screen is up to the specific event, though at Lake Superior we started putting up the timer about halfway through eliminations. It looks like a normal match screen for the most part.

The ref panels should also display the timer during a timeout, but I don't recall seeing that. I might have just missed it though.

Do head refs start a stopwatch after each field reset signal in elims? As of this year, the head ref panel will automatically start a timer after the end of a match that lets the head ref know how long the teams have to call in backups or use their timeout coupons.

Once the head ref receives a timeout coupon, he will instruct the scorekeeper at the FMS to initiate a timeout. Once the scorekeeper hits the button, the timeout starts.

It would be to an alliance's benefit to wait until 1:59, much like coaches and players in other sports can watch clocks and call timeouts at specific/final points. Heck, sometimes you see people standing right in front of refs for a while, but making the "T" at the last second! This is something I see a lot. Teams will have their alliance captain standing with the head ref, coupon in hand, waiting until the last second to place it in the ref's hand. The refs I know are just fine with this arrangement.

[Siri]

The new timer is a separate screen on the head ref panel. In elims, it counts time from last field reset (i.e. labeled timeout and backup coupon windows), field timeouts, and alliance timeouts when called. It's quite nice, actually. Prior to this year, all of my head refs at least would gladly share their stopwatch face with an alliance captain waiting for 1:59. It's basically SOP to call it at the buzzer, and I haven't heard of anyone trying to make this difficult for teams.

[Kris Verdeyen]

I thought of this after the Dallas finals -

In the past, there have been many instances of alliances using their timeouts to let their opponents repair their robot. This is still allowed, but the use of "cascading" time outs, or time outs one right after the other, are expressly forbidden.

Now, because the rules this year:
1. Require two wins in the finals to crown a champion (no tiebreakers).
2. Have a minimum score of zero

It's possible that two finals alliances could agree to just sit out a match, and should something happen (autonomous didn't get shut off, a human player not fully in the loop), intentionally cause penalties to force a 0-0 match (or matches) until all robots are at full strength.

This obviously does require a modicum of trust between the teams involved, but at most events, that's not too hard to come by.

It's possible that this would anger the refs: they are a proud creature who don't appreciate when their own weapon is used against them. But neither alliance is delaying a match, and you can't force teams to field broken (or even working) robots.

[Chris is me]

I thought of this after the Dallas finals -

In the past, there have been many instances of alliances using their timeouts to let their opponents repair their robot. This is still allowed, but the use of "cascading" time outs, or time outs one right after the other, are expressly forbidden.

Now, because the rules this year:
1. Require two wins in the finals to crown a champion (no tiebreakers).
2. Have a minimum score of zero

It's possible that two finals alliances could agree to just sit out a match, and should something happen (autonomous didn't get shut off, a human player not fully in the loop), intentionally cause penalties to force a 0-0 match (or matches) until all robots are at full strength.

This obviously does require a modicum of trust between the teams involved, but at most events, that's not too hard to come by.

It's possible that this would anger the refs: they are a proud creature who don't appreciate when their own weapon is used against them. But neither alliance is delaying a match, and you can't force teams to field broken (or even working) robots.

Not that it makes this less valid, but none of this is new. Cascading timeouts have been prohibited for the better part of a decade now, and a perfect 0-0 tie would force a replay in any year other than this one.