Competition volume

[microbuns]

FIRST is very focused on safety - that's great. However at every regional we've attended, we couldn't help but notice that while we'd get in trouble for very minor stuff, we were being exposed for >8 hours to dangerous amounts of volume. At our latest competition (which was by no means the loudest one we've been at - just the most recent) we measured the volume to be around 100dB. According to our government (and this can vary place to place) the maximum allowed exposure to 100dB under their most lenient scenarios is 2 hours.

Now personally - I can live with the volume. However there are older mentors who just can't handle it. Sure, suggesting earplugs is okay, and it works for them, but unless you can get every kid to wear them, then you still have a safety risk. And if you managed to get everyone at the competition to wear them... Why didn't you just turn down the volume?

[Koko Ed]

I took my niece to her very first FIRST competition last weekend. She enjoyed it very much but hung out with pit admin because it was too loud on the field side. I spend the whole weekend in front of the speakers so I get it worse than anyone at the events but I blast music all the time so I guess I don't notice it.

[GeeTwo]

I don't think Bayou was nearly that loud, unless you were right by the speakers. In the stands, you could carry on a conversation with only a slightly raised voice, and in the pits, the sounds of voices and machinery (no grinders, and not a lot of drilling or cutting!) were louder than the sound system. The only sound volume issue I had was when using a cell phone in the stands.

Actually, I did have trouble hearing the pit announcements, they were a bit too LOW, at least for my ears.

[AlexC]

We just competed at the Buckeye Regional and it was VERY loud. Easily the loudest event I've been at. To talk to our alliance partners in queue we had to leave the queue line and go around a corner to hear each other.

[Jalerre]

Your regional was over 100dB? Which one? I know at Palmetto every year the MC tries to beat a volume record by getting the crowd to scream as loud as they can with the music blaring. It averages around 95dB when when purposefully trying to be loud.

[KPSch]

I was at Buckeye this weekend too. On Friday it was WAY too loud. A few on our team measured the sound over 100db. Even our students thought it was too loud. There must have been some complaints because the music was at a much more reasonable volume on Saturday.

[vhcook]

I've gotten to the point where if I am planning to be in the stands for more than a minute or two, I wear hearing protection. Downloaded a dB meter app on my phone at Arkansas, and the levels were always over 85 dB and frequently up to 100 (which appeared to be the saturation point on my phone's microphone, since it never registered over 101, but pegged there for quite some time). Kansas City was a little better, but still over 85 dB at all times when the music was on.

It's just a smartphone app, not a properly calibrated meter, but I could feel the absence of the sound when I left the arena at both events.

[JDGallagher]

In the front row center stands, the Virginia regional was consistently around 100 dB, and physically painful to hear during loud points in songs. Thank you to the teams that were giving out hearing protection in the pit.

[Pretzel]

The Colorado regional was loud to the point of causing pain for the drivers on the field. Even to just talk to my co-driver, who stands no more than two feet from me, I had to yell nearly as loud as I could to be heard. In the middle alliance station, or number two, it was impossible to verbally communicate with the human player at the tote chute without sending a coach over to talk directly to them.

[IronicDeadBird]

The Colorado regional was loud to the point of causing pain for the drivers on the field. Even to just talk to my co-driver, who stands no more than two feet from me, I had to yell nearly as loud as I could to be heard. In the middle alliance station, or number two, it wad impossible to verbally communicate with the human player at the tote chute without sending a coach over to talk directly to them.

Uhhhh.... Welp, now I feel bad sorry for the ruckus.

-From that one guy on 1339 who jammed out to Call Me Maybe

[artdutra04]

The absurd sound levels are definitely one of those "non glamorous" genuine safety concerns that I wish FIRST would address with guidelines and enforcement for maximum sound levels.

For the past few years I always wear earplugs in the stands because the volume is just too high. It might seem cool once or twice in high school, but a decade of regionals starts to take a toll.

The only difference setting the volume level at 11 gets you instead of 7 is permanent bodily harm.

[JamesBrown]

In the front row center stands, the Virginia regional was consistently around 100 dB, and physically painful to hear during loud points in songs. Thank you to the teams that were giving out hearing protection in the pit.

I think the worst area was the Queuing for the next match up. I am not particularly sensitive to loud noises, but found the Next match queuing area, particularly on the blue side to be painful during some songs. I cannot imagine what it was like for the volunteers who were there all day. There is absolutely no way the volume level on the front half of the field (towards the stands) met OSHA standards.

[Lil' Lavery]

I've been too far too many regionals and loud concerts for sound to typically bother me. The lone exception was the Chestnut Hill district this year. The sound levels were ridiculously high, and the speakers pointed right at the queue line and driver's stations. It would borderline impossible to communicate with anyone, and my ears were often physically hurting. I made multiple complaints to field staff at the venue and again in the post-event surveys. I hope that particular individual DJ is not allowed back.


That being said, my voice would prefer if I didn't have to converse over the music constantly at just about any event.

[ayeckley]

my ears were often physically hurting.

That means that you have now incurred a small but irreversible amount of hearing loss. FIRST goes to a lot of effort to ensure safety at events, but really drops the ball on this issue. Not referring to you Sean, but unfortunately some folks think that ringing ears is a point of pride. I used to think so too, but as much as I enjoyed that Rush concert at the Richfield Coliseum back in '85 it was probably too loud. The thing that I don't understand is that nowadays rock concerts are very careful about not exceeding SPLs, but yet other events staffed by essentially the same type of production professionals aren't.

Buckeye was the first time I've had to put on my hearing protection at an FRC event in several years. Did not like.

[JamesCH95]

At Hartford this weekend the DJ/AV guy had the sound for buzzers/bells cranked to an insane level. I politely asked him to turn it down and he did. The rest of the weekend was much more pleasant than Friday night.

Has anyone else ever tried politely asking for the volume to be turned down?

[SuspectedApollo]

My team was at Buckeye this past weekend as well, and one of our advisers in the second level of stands measured the volume over 110 dB. In the queue we never measured, but it was way to loud to talk strategy with our alliance without shouting everything.

[frcparent]

It should be mandatory that all team members wear hearing protection. I drove semi and used it all the time. I was in no danger of not hearing a siren if I could not hear over the truck.

[jvriezen]

I would address it via the following ways:

1) Ask the sound guy/gal to turn it down. (or get a message passed to sound person via a volunteer if you don't have access.)

2) Contact the event coordinator and/or Safety folks at event, to report the issue.

3) If the problem still is not resolved, tell event coordinator (have Pit Admin contact them) you'd like to open an 'injury report' (or whatever they are called) due to the high sound levels-- this forces the concern to be documented (and probably resolved quickly.)

Come to think of it, the end game buzzer at Northern Lights was quite obnoxiously loud in the queuing area, where I was working as inspector making sure bots were ready to go. I should have taken one or more of the above steps. I'll be the lookout for the same at 10K Lakes this weekend.

[Koko Ed]

I remember hearing a story of a parent at an event calling the police because the sound was too loud. That's a little bit much.

[Lil' Lavery]

At Hartford this weekend the DJ/AV guy had the sound for buzzers/bells cranked to an insane level. I politely asked him to turn it down and he did. The rest of the weekend was much more pleasant than Friday night.

Has anyone else ever tried politely asking for the volume to be turned down?

I tried at Chestnut Hill. The DJ nodded towards me, but no perceptible change occurred. Members of the event staff also spoke to him, with little to no success.

[Nemo]

Last year the sound at North Star was loud enough to hurt my ears in the stands. I brought that concern to a safety advisor, and she brought it to other volunteers. It got better after that, which was awesome.

This is something that could be addressed from the top. FIRST can direct event organizers to follow certain volume rules, then event coordinators make sure the sound people know those limits.

I'm sure some of the people who run the sound at these events are used to other events where lots of the people actually want 100 decibels or more. It might not occur to those people to moderate their volume unless somebody directs them to do so.

I fully agree that this is an important issue given that we spend 3 long days at a typical regional event.

[dougwilliams]

I'm curious what everyone on here is using to measure sound level? I'm going out an a limb and assume mobile phone apps. As someone who has spent a good deal of time designing and measuring sound levels on cell phones, I would caution that these are devices are not intended for any sort of measurement accuracy, and probably have little correlation to on actual absolute value.

That said, clearly there are people at each events that are uncomfortable; I've experienced some piercing high frequencies at the events as well, and agree that the venues and sound folks should be more cognizant of sound levels through the venue.

[JamesCH95]

I tried at Chestnut Hill. The DJ nodded towards me, but no perceptible change occurred. Members of the event staff also spoke to him, with little to no success.

It makes no sense to not do what your customers are asking for. Time to pursue the steps outlined by jvriezen.

[jvriezen]

I'm wondering if part of the problem is that the show folks make the (reasonable) assumption that they only need to test sound levels on the fields, in the stands and maybe at the driver stations, not realizing that there are students and volunteers routinely at the outskirts of the field area for queuing and other things.

Hence, they put their speakers out there and blast the folks in the queuing areas, having not tested those areas to be within decibel limits. It would be better if speakers were elevated over the ear level of those working the event, rather than set on the floor as they often are.

[MikeE]

I'm curious what everyone on here is using to measure sound level? I'm going out an a limb and assume mobile phone apps. As someone who has spent a good deal of time designing and measuring sound levels on cell phones, I would caution that these are devices are not intended for any sort of measurement accuracy, and probably have little correlation to on actual absolute value.


Quoted for truth.
I also have experience measuring audio capture characteristics of cellphones and can confirm wide variations often within a single device model.

I'm usually at field side during an event and always use hearing protection once matches are underway.

[Fields]

I'm actually a little concerned now. Being my rookie year with FRC, I had invited my family to stop by and see what the team had accomplish. But having two kids under 5, I'm not so sure now. :(

[jvriezen]

It makes no sense to not do what your customers are asking for. Time to pursue the steps outlined by jvriezen.

To argue the other side for a moment, just because ONE person thinks it is too loud, doesn't mean it always should be turned down as someone may be hyper-sensitive and it makes more sense to use earplugs for those few. My thoughts apply to legitimate complaints about volume level, which can be objectively measured with the sound tech's meter (or something better than a cell phone app!) at the locations where people need to hang out.

Also, I hope the standard pre-event preparation includes informing the show crew all the places where participants (students/volunteers) will be located and the need for sound levels to be acceptable. In some cases, teams will be in queuing for a long time if there are field problems and/or a match needs to be replayed -- while the DJ is playing audience participation tunes.

[IronicDeadBird]

I'm actually a little concerned now. Being my rookie year with FRC, I had invited my family to stop by and see what the team had accomplish. But having two kids under 5, I'm not so sure now. :(

At the Denver Regional there are definitely hot spots or areas where the crowd is rowdy and causes a ruckus. That being said the inverse is also true there were areas where you could watch the match where it was not as bad.
I will dare to say it and I know some people hate hearing this so come at me CD!
I would be behind the idea that there is reserved seating for people with needs that would fall under this and other category. These seats would provide a decent view of matches without the insane noise levels. Roughly speaking I would save this area for people with smaller children, guests (I don't want to bring a principal into a mosh pit), people with disabilities, and the billion or so wild tripods that seem to grow out of the ground to film the competition.

[jvriezen]

I'm actually a little concerned now. Being my rookie year with FRC, I had invited my family to stop by and see what the team had accomplish. But having two kids under 5, I'm not so sure now. :(

Check things out on Friday, and have them come on Saturday with or without ear protection as needed. And welcome to FIRST -- this weekend should be one of the best highlights of your FIRST season, regardless of how well you do on the field!

My inclination (without real hard evidence) is that the 10K Lakes Regioinal isn't as noisy as North Star, since the pits are segregated from the field. Since it is right across the street, running at the same time, they can visit pits and watch matches there as well-- though obviously they'll also want to see your team's pit and some of your matches!

[Conor Ryan]

I see 3 sides to this story:

1) Regional/District Directors want to make sure people can hear the event commentary. If you have noise concerns at events, these are the people you need to track down. They got the power to fix it for good.

2) Due to the nature of the venues we have, speaker set up is frequently the last concern for an event committee. Usually they end up where the fit, generally in sub-par locations where volume is turned up to compensate for poor placement. Generally speakers are aimed for the audience seating, because people are everywhere at FRC events its a unique audio engineering challenge, and usually the sound guys don't have the ability to add more speakers, which would be the ideal solution.

3) Frequently the volume at the source of the speakers is way too loud and people are standing next to it all day. Queuers are the most frequent victims in my opinion. HQ has given minimal guidance to keep the sound at a safe level.

[Koko Ed]

3) Frequently the volume at the source of the speakers is way too loud and people are standing next to it all day. Queuers are the most frequent victims in my opinion. HQ has given minimal guidance to keep the sound at a safe level.
Meh. They're only queuers. :rolleyes:

[Jon Stratis]

I'm actually a little concerned now. Being my rookie year with FRC, I had invited my family to stop by and see what the team had accomplish. But having two kids under 5, I'm not so sure now. :(

If you have a problem with sound levels at North Star, find any key volunteer (like myself!) And we'll see what we can do to get it fixed. Even though I run out to the field and back all the time, the speakers are pointed such that I don't get the full blast in the areas I'm in... The people sitting at the desk behind the field don't know that it's too loud unless they're told!

[Pretzel]

One thing that I should mention is that many of the events are probably louder than they need to be without knowing it due to the speaker and DJ placement. If the person with control over the volume is behind the speakers, he/she may be tuning it to how he/she likes it from his/her position. It could start the day fine, but it may get louder gradually as the crowd gets louder and the DJ turns up the volume to compensate so he/she can still hear it about as well as he/she did in the morning.

Either way, just telling people to put on hearing protection is a less than optimal solution. I tried it in semifinals match 4 at the Colorado regional and was unable to hear my coach or co-driver accurately, especially if I was saying something at the same time (since your own voice feels amplified when you wear earplugs or earmuffs). Communication becomes hampered and that could lead to other safety concerns, especially if drivers pulling robot carts can't hear instructions from field crew members because of the earplugs.

[GreyingJay]

I'm actually a little concerned now. Being my rookie year with FRC, I had invited my family to stop by and see what the team had accomplish. But having two kids under 5, I'm not so sure now. :(

I think it's very much dependent on the location. I had no troubles with sound levels at Toronto Central (held at the old Maple Leaf Gardens) and at North Bay (held at one of the basketball courts at Nipissing University). Hockey games are way louder. Though the crowd noise got pretty intense at the finals in North Bay!

[Koko Ed]

I think it's very much dependent on the location. I had no troubles with sound levels at Toronto Central (held at the old Maple Leaf Gardens) and at North Bay (held at one of the basketball courts at Nipissing University). Hockey games are way louder. Though the crowd noise got pretty intense at the finals in North Bay!

Actually I thought GTCR was the loudest event I went to this year.

[Gregor]

I think it's very much dependent on the location. I had no troubles with sound levels at Toronto Central (held at the old Maple Leaf Gardens) and at North Bay (held at one of the basketball courts at Nipissing University). Hockey games are way louder. Though the crowd noise got pretty intense at the finals in North Bay!

GTRC certainly had some sound issues with the bass reverberating through the entire arena, so much so that we had to stop talking for moments at a time while waiting for it to end, and that was just the pits, it was worse in queue.

[GreyingJay]

GTRC certainly had some sound issues with the bass reverberating through the entire arena, so much so that we had to stop talking for moments at a time while waiting for it to end, and that was just the pits, it was worse in queue.

Now that you mention it yes I do remember a LOT of bass at times.

But I don't remember having any problem with conversation in the stands, and you could even go up to the floor level above the stands for a relatively quite place to work or chat.

As an "older fella" (well, I'm 36 :rolleyes: ) I am sensitive to really loud music and sounds, I will not attend many live concerts for this reason, but nothing at GTRC made my ears ring or hurt or caused major discomfort, at least not to the level that other people are describing at some other regionals.

[sanddrag]

I appreciate this thread. If only it were named "Petition to lower sound levels at events." ;)

Sound levels at events are a definite safety concern that we must not ignore as an organization.

At Ventura this year, the sound was perfect. At Long Beach this year, as it has been in years past, the sound was dangerously loud. I had sustained muffled hearing for a considerable duration after, and I didn't spend all that long in the arena. At a few points, I had to leave the arena. The MC mic consistently peaks out on the higher tones on the Long Beach speakers, because he yells into the mic. It needs to be toned down a bit at that particular event. Everyone will still be just as excited. Everyone will still be able to hear it.

[Sunshine]

C.O.R.E. 2062 has offered earplugs to anyone visiting our pit. We have attempted to contact FIRST offering to put up earplug dispensers at championship. Haven't heard back, but in all honesty I'm not sure if the students knew how to exactly contact the correct person.

At the very least, stop by our pit to get earplugs and check the db readings we take throughout the day.

[XaulZan11]

The loudest I've experienced were at the Championship. It seems that if you sit at the wrong seats in the stands, the speakers are blasting directly at you. I'm really curious to see how attempt to deal with the extra fields on the dome. I hope they don't just turn up the volumn more because people can hear the other fields.

[Metonym]

FIRST definitely sees this issue and is looking at what could fix it, but it is really up to the Regional's EM and VC to keep the volume at a reasonable level. PNW recieves many complaints about the sounds, ranging from what is being played to how loud it is. During week 2, the TD and I spent a bit of time finding the optimal loudness of the speakers from the closest and furthest points in the stands. We measured 80-85 dBa, based on the size of the venue, to be the optimal level. We then tested what would happen if we lowered the volume to like 70. In short, don't do it. It kills the atmosphere of the event. Even songs like YMCA could only revive the crowd for so long.

[Whippet]

I would like to thank the sound crew at Hub City this year for keeping it at a reasonable level. It wasn't hard to discuss strategy in the queue, and talking to volunteers was fully possible as well. In addition, this was the first time I have ever been able to hear the robot over the music through the alliance wall, and that helped us diagnose an issue with our drivetrain during a match. The crowd seemed as though they weren't fazed by the volume being lower than previous years.

[Clayton Summerall]

Bayou had some baddddddd bass, it was way to much.

[cbale2000]

At the Great Lakes Bay Region District this year, several teams from an area of the stands complained about high sound levels due to a speaker that was positioned directly behind them on the second floor walkway. We (the A/V crew at the event) could only turn the volume down slightly, as lowering it further would create issues for spectators in other areas of the gym.

We couldn't relocate the speaker because of limited cable length, and since the speakers were daisy chained, removing it would cut off every speaker past it in the chain too. Eventually we alleviated the issue by rotating the speaker about 90 degrees (pointing it down the 2nd floor walkway rather than out over the edge of it), but it served as a good reminder to us for future events to always have someone checking where and how the guy that drops off the sound equipment places and hooks things up.

[themccannman]

I'm glad someone finally brought this up, it's ****ing ridiculous and dangerous, I'm seriously pissed off that anyone seems to think that that level of volume is acceptable, let alone for 9 hours a day at an event that is 3 days long. This is completely absurd, I'm definitely taking this up with whoever is managing the sound board at SVR because I can almost guarantee they will (like always) being playing music at a dangerous volume and I'd like to not go deaf before I graduate from college. My ears should be physically in pain when I go down to the queuing area. smh

[T.Ricky]

I'm actually a little concerned now. Being my rookie year with FRC, I had invited my family to stop by and see what the team had accomplish. But having two kids under 5, I'm not so sure now. :(

I definitely recommend bringing some kind of hearing protection for kids. That way you're covered if you need it.

I've been bringing my ~18 month old daughter to competitions these past two seasons. We have her wear noise attenuating ear muffs (luckily she puts up with them and keeps them on).

[CoClimber]

I brought this up in another thread but will repeat here because I think it is important. Let me start by saying that I already have hearing loss - I can't hear anything over 8KHz - and it makes life difficult. At St Louis after the final match I could wear ear plugs and not be able to have a conversation, or not wear them and be in pain. My problem with St Louis was that the team was far up in the stands and the noise levels were tolerable but when the DJ played certain music, the bass was extremely loud. It was painful With the earplugs. We got our team out of there before the final awards rather than expose them to dangerous levels. I was very angry that we were subjected to this. I've been to many rock concerts and I have never experienced this level of bass before. Everything was getting distorted due to the ears getting overloaded.

If FIRST cares about safety, if they care about setting good examples, they will fix this.

[arc25565]

I was our teams drive coach at the Greater Toronto Central regional and at the end of day 2 I Had almost lost my voice from yelling so loud so the drivers could hear me over the music.

[Jaci]

The championships in St Louis were a bit of an issue for me. The event was amazing, but the volume was a bit too loud.

I have an audio-processing issue on my left side, and even so the event volume was so loud during opening and closing ceremonies I could feel myself start to get ill. On the field itself, the volume wasn't too bad as the speakers were facing out, but I still strained my voice trying to communicate with the other teams in the alliance. This loss of voice seemed to be a common problem across a lot of our drive team, and even a few pit crew, members from both of our teams.

Something else to note is the bassline of the massive speakers inside the dome. When music was playing, particularly bass-heavy music, the speakers would cause a sort of 'thumping' in peoples chests. For students, mentors or guests with heart problems this may be a concern to keep mindful of.