Petition to end things that confuse the public

[sanddrag]

Well, it's been just over two years to the day since my wildly popular and hotly contested Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115563). Two years later, I can say it definitely has had a effect for the better, and I'm proud to have been the initiator of a national effort to improve the perception of our program by the general public.

This year, I began thinking about other things that perhaps are turning people away from wanting to be involved in this wonderful program we run. While attending events this year, I realized what some of these things are. We are a goofy bunch of folks, who have built a culture around celebration of what we do, in some strange ways that are not at all related to what we do. You all know what I'm referring to when I talk about the pauses between the finals matches at regional events. It's the dances, to the same goofy songs every year.

And believe me, I have seen the pure and genuine joy and excitement on my student's faces when they're out there doing their thing, but to the unfamiliar observer, it is difficult to relate these goofy activities with a highly technical robotics competition. It's confusing, and hard to "get." I've been to other robotics competitions outside of the FIRST league, and they just don't have the same energy and appeal. But, I'm not convinced it's these silly songs and dances that make FIRST events what they are.

Why can't regionals run finals the way championship does, with awards between matches, instead of these goofy songs? Did we debate this before and I missed it?

And I strongly considered putting a question mark at the end of this thread title, because I'm not sure if it's something I feel as strongly about as I did the thing with yelling "robot" and I may get completely shut out disagreed with on this one. But let's get the dialog started nonetheless. I feel like this thread will result in much more debate, and much less clear of an answer than the previous one, but I'm curious what the rest of the community's opinion is.

And as a standard disclaimer, if this thread were to years from now result in any drastic culture shift in FIRST, I sincerely hope it's for the better.

Debate away!

[Boltman]

Personally I liked the breaks to perfect the #cheescaking procedure.... so silly songs sure....

http://i.imgur.com/mEhBoOv.jpg

[dcarr]

Thanks for introducing a much-needed dose of common sense with "Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT" - I too have heard it less and less often as the years have gone by, and I think it has had a continuing positive impact as the practice is no longer being "passed on" to new teams who might have otherwise picked up the practice without knowing any of the context behind it. Also, now is as good a time as any to say, congratulations on the WFFA!


And believe me, I have seen the pure and genuine joy and excitement on my student's faces when they're out there doing their thing, but to the unfamiliar observer, it is difficult to relate these goofy activities with a highly technical robotics competition. It's confusing, and hard to "get." I've been to other robotics competitions outside of the FIRST league, and they just don't have the same energy and appeal. But, I'm not convinced it's these silly songs and dances that make FIRST events what they are.

Have you encountered people who are confused or turned off by the intermissions that happen between elimination matches? I think things like this are a part of what makes FIRST culture unique. I'm not sure there would be much of a net positive if some of these fun traditions were removed or reduced.

[artdutra04]

While I'm not generally one who enjoys hearing the same six dance songs every few hours at events, I don't believe they necessarily are a negative part of the competition experience.

They have parallels to things at existing sporting events. Take baseball for example. Between every inning at baseball games, there are all kinds of weird shenanigans that entertain the crowd while the teams switch sides.

[MooreteP]

This year, I began thinking about other things that perhaps are turning people away from wanting to be involved in this wonderful program we run. While attending events this year, I realized what some of these things are. We are a goofy bunch of folks, who have built a culture around celebration of what we do, in some strange ways that are not at all related to what we do. You all know what I'm referring to when I talk about the pauses between the finals matches at regional events. It's the dances, to the same goofy songs every year.

It's like a Grateful Dead (or Phish) concert with Robots.

You walk in to the arena, the action on the stage is inscrutable, the audience is wearing colorful clothing and dancing a lot, people are responding to the action in unison and you're not sure why, and everybody is really nice to each other, GP.

This year, I began thinking about other things that perhaps are turning people away from wanting to be involved in this wonderful program we run. While attending events this year, I realized what some of these things are. We are a goofy bunch of folks, who have built a culture around celebration of what we do, in some strange ways that are not at all related to what we do. You all know what I'm referring to when I talk about the pauses between the finals matches at regional events. It's the dances, to the same goofy songs every year.

In the end, I think it is about the students celebrating their hard work and that is a priority.

I am a little tired of the same songs too, etc.... but it works, and it is a collective activity, so, I dance with them.

I am also GA and we have had discussions in our conference calls about activities during the timeouts that have to occur this year for Robot "cooldown" in the SF's and Finals. We are trying to "mix it up" with activities that keep the audience attentive.
Your suggestion about doing awards between the matches is a good one, but awards require a cleared field for teams to walk down and be recognized. Probably won't happen until the CMP.

So, IMHO, no petition needed here. The petition about the shouting of "Robot!" had it's desired effect. This concern is more complex.

[Koko Ed]

I'm down with banning the Chicken Dance (and take the Macerena with you when you go)!

[Sperkowsky]

To start I don't think the robot shouting petition hit long Island because it seemed as bad as ever.

But more related I do agree on some of your points.

1.reserve non team seats in the front. So say have the team seats higher up allowing for the general public to get close to the action and not go all the way to the nose bleeds because they don't want to sit inside a team.

2.do crowd activites. Anything from small quiz games about Frc or even showing small videos the community has been made will make a difference.

3. Play the game animation constantly. New people need to know what they are watching and being the announcer called them barrels consistently even though in the manual it says containers it really annoyed me.

4.end the blue Alliance red Alliance chant. Everyone not part of Frc I have brought also thought it was the most annoying thing and made no sense. Just please stop it. If the people want to shout their Alliance fine but when it's done 50 times every match It makes me want to get on the mic and scream purple Alliance.

That's all I have now

[ToddF]

I think the biggest improvement regionals could make would be displaying informative graphics on the big screen between matches. There should never be a time when an audience member should need to ask, "What's going on?"

Suggestion: There should be ever present graphics between matches with the following info:
-Time since last match ended, previous match number, teams that played, outcome of the match.
-Upcoming match number, teams that are playing and their current ranks
-Some sort of graphic showing the phases between matches, with the current phase highlighted (scoring, robot removal, robot placement, connecting to field, ready for match) If a timeout is called, display the number of the team that called it, and a countdown clock. If there is an administrative timeout between finals matches, put up that graphic and countdown clock. If it's lunchtime, put up a graphic with a countdown clock until matches resume.

Having this info displayed would also make watching online streaming matches much easier to follow.

So, my solution to ending public confusion is simply to provide the information the public (and everyone else) wants to know: What's happening right now? What just happened? What's going to happen next? When will the next thing happen?

[Loose Screw]

1.reserve non team seats in the front. So say have the team seats higher up allowing for the general public to get close to the action and not go all the way to the nose bleeds because they don't want to sit inside a team.

2.do crowd activites. Anything from small quiz games about Frc or even showing small videos the community has been made will make a difference.

These two ideas are very promising. At some events (using Michigan states at EMU as an example), teams rush into the stands to reserve seats for their team. That leads to some safety concerns as teams run in a mob after the gates open. Reserving these seats also leads to hurt feelings between teams if a large team claims a large spot with very few people.

By saving those priority seats to the general public only, it stops teams from rushing in and saving seats. Who would want to run in and up stairs to save nosebleed seats?

Your second point has great potential. The Master of Ceremonies could do a "FIRST History" quiz about past teams and challenges. For example, "Which two teams joined together and 'rose from the ashes' after their two schools merged?". This would still involve students to participate and learn about FIRST history.

An idea to help newcomers to the game could be to hold scoring quizzes between matches. Even if they have no idea what the points are, teams there will and they'll learn which elements are worth more. For example, a question could be: "Which is worth more points, a 6 tote stack or a 3 tote stack with a recycling container?" Teams will answer the 3 tote + RC, and the MoC could explain in detail why.

[Libby K]

I think the biggest improvement regionals could make would be displaying informative graphics on the big screen between matches. There should never be a time when an audience member should need to ask, "What's going on?"

Suggestion: There should be ever present graphics between matches with the following info:
-Time since last match ended, previous match number, teams that played, outcome of the match.
-Upcoming match number, teams that are playing and their current ranks
-Some sort of graphic showing the phases between matches, with the current phase highlighted (scoring, robot removal, robot placement, connecting to field, ready for match) If a timeout is called, display the number of the team that called it, and a countdown clock. If there is an administrative timeout between finals matches, put up that graphic and countdown clock. If it's lunchtime, put up a graphic with a countdown clock until matches resume.

Having this info displayed would also make watching online streaming matches much easier to follow.

So, my solution to ending public confusion is simply to provide the information the public (and everyone else) wants to know: What's happening right now? What just happened? What's going to happen next? When will the next thing happen?

I really like this - you can still play a dance song, do FRC trivia, or have some other thing happening while this graphic is up, if you so choose - but it would certainly eliminate the "Is this a time out? Cooldown break? Just hanging out? Is it over?"

I'm fully aware of the reasons we might have a break, and I'll still miss the announcement of "Team XYZ has called their 6-minute time out, so the clock will start over..." or whatever happens to have been done - so it's confusing to team members as well as first-time spectators. The seconds-counting-down on the overlay score bar isn't quite enough for this purpose.

[angelah]

We get a lot of outside visitors to events for our team. No one has ever seemed put off by the dancing. In fact, one of our sponsors comes back time and again because she loves the "energy" of the events, and she has specifically mentioned the dancing as a positive.

The biggest issue we have had was with teams being rude about "saved seats" (no such thing.) I think teams need to do a better job of informing parents, because they are the biggest culprits. We watched a near-war behind us at Woodhaven when a whole team came back late from lunch and expected their three rows of bleachers, saved by a few jackets, to have remained untouched. At Michigan districts, seating is almost always a problem. People get territorial, and guests have been snapped at or talked about loudly for taking a "saved seat." It's rude.

I think the announcers are the key to keeping the crowd informed. A quick word can explain why there is a delay or why something is happening. I also think playing the game animation multiple times a day is very smart, especially on Saturdays when visitors are more common.

[Tungrus]

Please do not take away fun from FIRST.... team members sitting on bleacher for hours get a break to stretch and relax. If anyone cannot take goofy song and dance, probably should be visiting pits, where pit crews are sweating. Promoting FIRST and educating masses about it, setup a informational/educational booth showing videos and lectures outside the arena. There is no reason to punish one to please other.

This comment is based on FIM district and not sure how other events and if they are putting off people from attending.

[JesseK]

If anyone cannot take goofy song and dance, probably should be visiting pits, where pit crews are sweating.

During finals, most of the pits are either gone or are in the process of being torn down. Some teams are gone completely.

I like the info graphics idea. I also wonder what it takes to do what FIRST did at the Champs last year - they had still photos & silent video of the multi-day competition at some point during Einstein. If wouldn't need to be a grand production - even a PowerPoint or a Prezi (http://prezi.com/) would be great.

[Tungrus]

During finals, most of the pits are either gone or are in the process of being torn down. Some teams are gone completely.

I like the info graphics idea. I also wonder what it takes to do what FIRST did at the Champs last year - they had still photos & silent video of the multi-day competition at some point during Einstein. If wouldn't need to be a grand production - even a PowerPoint or a Prezi (http://prezi.com/) would be great.

I have absolutely no issue with showing information on screen. Those who are curious can just look up and see what's going on. The goofy music and dance is not just for students, we see volunteers, parents and small kids having a blast. In Michigan we love our volunteers. they do amazing job queuing up robots.

[GreyingJay]

I have no problem with the "silly" things that happen at events. I think it's great that people are dancing and having fun. As someone who is, um, "coordination challenged" it takes a LOT of coercing for me to get up and look foolish by trying to dance, especially in front of large audiences. The only places I have ever felt comfortable doing that are at the summer camp I volunteer with... and FRC events. That speaks of how comfortable I feel in an audience full of friends. FRC folks are a friendly bunch.

I like the ideas for "how to explain to the audience what is going on" but ultimately I don't think it is any more confusing than any other spectator sport. I don't really follow hockey that closely and I still sometimes ask "what was that for? why did they do that?" when watching a game.

Any audience member that doesn't know what is going on can ask "what's going on?" and someone nearby will happily explain. Someone sitting near me was asking exactly that at North Bay and I explained to them what the game was about.

[Lil' Lavery]

Coming into this thread I expected it to be about confounding rules, complicated scoring, inconsistent real-time scoring, or possibly even mentor involvement levels. Those are thing that actually tend to confuse the public, in my experience. But dancing and excitement?

I know more spectators and VIPs who are thrilled with the dancing than are turned off by it. In fact, while it's not what draws many to the event, I don't think I've encountered any visitors that were openly upset or confused by the dancing. I see judges or other guest speakers engage in the dancing or encourage it, which seems to suggest to me that outside observers might actually, you know, enjoy it.

[Kevin Sevcik]

I think the biggest improvement regionals could make would be displaying informative graphics on the big screen between matches. There should never be a time when an audience member should need to ask, "What's going on?"

Suggestion: There should be ever present graphics between matches with the following info:
-Time since last match ended, previous match number, teams that played, outcome of the match.
-Upcoming match number, teams that are playing and their current ranks
-Some sort of graphic showing the phases between matches, with the current phase highlighted (scoring, robot removal, robot placement, connecting to field, ready for match) If a timeout is called, display the number of the team that called it, and a countdown clock. If there is an administrative timeout between finals matches, put up that graphic and countdown clock. If it's lunchtime, put up a graphic with a countdown clock until matches resume.

Having this info displayed would also make watching online streaming matches much easier to follow.

So, my solution to ending public confusion is simply to provide the information the public (and everyone else) wants to know: What's happening right now? What just happened? What's going to happen next? When will the next thing happen?This would definitely be helpful, but you're going to have to figure out how to integrate it with the standard sponsor roll. I'm pretty sure the sponsor roll is a mandatory element.

For match info, etc. you could probably use the real time scoring overlay area for the display, and just keep it up all the time. The sponsor roll would get squeezed a bit into the match video area. This would actually probably help the venues that apparently don't have chroma keyed overlay equipment and have to manually adjust the overlay area when switching between the match, results, and sponsor roll.

I don't think you'll get your wish on displaying field reset stages, beyond a simple Scoring Match/Field Reset/Match Ready cycle. Anything more granular than the green indicator lights already on the field is going to require someone updating the exact stage field reset is in, and everyone's busy enough as it is.

[efoote868]

Coming into this thread I expected it to be about confounding rules, complicated scoring, inconsistent real-time scoring, or possibly even mentor involvement levels. Those are thing that actually tend to confuse the public, in my experience. But dancing and excitement?

If the game takes more than 10 seconds to explain, the general public is going to have a hard time with it.

[Sperkowsky]

If the game takes more than 10 seconds to explain, the general public is going to have a hard time with it.

its true and the argument with say football or basketball is slightly invalid. I mean think about they all share a common apsect of scoring defense, and rules. Even people who dont understand whats really going on understands it to an extent. With frc they can be completely in the dark.

Some games make sense to other people just watching like ariel assist and rebound rumble but most like recycle rush really confuse people.

[GreyingJay]

Some games make sense to other people just watching like ariel assist and rebound rumble but most like recycle rush really confuse people.

I think people can quickly figure out the general gist of it. "They're trying to stack the grey boxes as high as they can, and put the green containers on top."

The questions I heard most were about the nuances. Coopertition was the biggest one. Questions about why/what/how autonomous works. And finally, "what's with all the pool noodles being thrown around?" :D

[BlueLipstick]

2.do crowd activites. Anything from small quiz games about Frc or even showing small videos the community has been made will make a difference.

3. Play the game animation constantly. New people need to know what they are watching and being the announcer called them barrels consistently even though in the manual it says containers it really annoyed me.

4.end the blue Alliance red Alliance chant. Everyone not part of Frc I have brought also thought it was the most annoying thing and made no sense. Just please stop it. If the people want to shout their Alliance fine but when it's done 50 times every match It makes me want to get on the mic and scream purple Alliance.

The game/quiz idea is great, and I've seen teams do it as an activity and it's very effective. But the personalization of it is usually what makes it fun (a selfie contest that involves getting shots with different teams and mascots is a lot of fun). However it might lose some of its fun if it's turned into what they do before movies in the theater, with generic quizzes playing on the scoreboard.
I don't know about your competitions, but ours plays the animation a lot. And seeing it repeated over and over again would be super annoying. Maybe if someone created a short cut that people could go to on their phone to see the game animation and other important links. I don't know, but putting it on repeat to fill the silence seems like overkill.
If we end the blue alliance, red alliance chant, someone will make a new one that will become the adopted chant. That particular one's nice because everyone knows it, so three different teams could be cheering simultaneously and it becomes a group effort. In all honesty, I'd like to see an end to the super long, confusing chants that no one can ever tell what's being said because it just seems like extra noise. Yes, the repetition should stop because hearing it over and over again is awful. This could be solved by someone making generic cheers that everyone could adopt, and more of them so that if someone wants to chant they have a myriad of things already available, and wouldn't always default to red alliance.
But overall, I don't think the dances and songs have to stop. Sports games do them, and that's basically what we're emulating. Reiterating my previous point, more variety in the songs, dances, and games might make them more bearable for people who aren't into them and more enthusing for people who are.

[GreyingJay]

One thing I saw at GTR Central and North Bay was they would play videos made by teams. For example, Team 4001 made a music video "It's all about the totes" that got played presumably at every regional they showed up at.

We also saw safety videos and videos from other teams (including FRC Rhapsody). I thought this was neat, and inspiring. So if you want to help shake things up, encourage your team to make a video!

[Christopher149]

New people need to know what they are watching and being the announcer called them barrels consistently even though in the manual it says containers it really annoyed me.

Between both teams and announcers, it can get very confusing when people refer to the game pieces variously as totes, containers, RCs, litter, noodles, crates, bins, barrels, garbage cans, yellow totes, coop totes, "cooperation" totes, cans, et cetera. Can we get some consistency (especially from the announcers)?

Edit: Regarding chanting "red/blue alliance", it's very similar to chanting "Let's go Huskies [or insert other team name here]".

[scca229]

One thing I saw at GTR Central and North Bay was they would play videos made by teams. For example, Team 4001 made a music video "It's all about the totes" that got played presumably at every regional they showed up at.

We also saw safety videos and videos from other teams (including FRC Rhapsody). I thought this was neat, and inspiring. So if you want to help shake things up, encourage your team to make a video!

Both of these were also played in Las Vegas during Playoffs field timeouts. I know I enjoyed them.

[Sperkowsky]

Between both teams and announcers, it can get very confusing when people refer to the game pieces variously as totes, containers, RCs, litter, noodles, crates, bins, barrels, garbage cans, yellow totes, coop totes, "cooperation" totes, cans, et cetera. Can we get some consistency (especially from the announcers)?

Edit: Regarding chanting "red/blue alliance", it's very similar to chanting "Let's go Huskies [or insert other team name here]".
I usually go by the manual

Litter
Yellow totes
Grey totes
Recycling containers

Step
Scoring platform
Tote chute
Auto zone
Landfill


Those are the manuals words and what I think the words announcers should use.

[Joseph1825]

One way to confuse the public less is to simplify the scoring rules when explaining them. "Each grey tote stacked is worth 2 points, and if there is a recycling container on top that triples the score of that stack, and if there is a pool noodle in the container then it is worth 6 more points." That explains the game well enough for an observer. and occasionally say "If they can stack four yellow totes on the center step that is worth 40 points for both teams."

[serenagh]

I know more spectators and VIPs who are thrilled with the dancing than are turned off by it. In fact, while it's not what draws many to the event, I don't think I've encountered any visitors that were openly upset or confused by the dancing. I see judges or other guest speakers engage in the dancing or encourage it, which seems to suggest to me that outside observers might actually, you know, enjoy it.

I got the chance to walk a seventh grader who had heard of FIRST but hadn't experienced it first hand through the semi-finals and finals at the Sacramento Regional. Seeing the joy on his face when he saw what robotics was like for the first time was amazing. He loved the dancing and the craziness (as well as the pool noodle range)- it's a window into an important part of the experience for other teams, and a great reminder that FIRST is more than an engineering competition. The pits were closing and people were packing out, but there were still things to check out. This is a cool way to show outsiders an element of the "fun" side of things, and to keep it light.

[wilsonmw04]

Yes, no more dancing. Robots is serious business :rolleyes:

[Koko Ed]

Yes, no more dancing. Robots is serious business :rolleyes:
To the people in the pits (who are usually the most vocal CD users) it is to the general FIRST public they're there for fun so to be honest this thread is really us being a bunch of grumpy killjoys (me included. I can go hide if they start playing the Chicken Dance). Let the people who tend the robots do their thing and let the people who are there to enjoy the show, enjoy the show including the part that doesn't involve robots.

[Jeffrafa]

2.do crowd activites. Anything from small quiz games about Frc or even showing small videos the community has been made will make a difference.


One cool crowd activity they did at the Wilsonville District in 2014 was a single-elimination rock-paper-scissors tournament. I think it was to fill a field timeout (so the MC could plan it ahead a bit), but basically he got everyone to stand up, and you would play someone near you, and sit down if you lost. Eventually it ended with the top 4 playing off in the middle of the field.

Not related to FRC or the teams, but it was a fun break and nice alternative to 2 more dance songs.

[Addison4300]

I think the biggest improvement regionals could make would be displaying informative graphics on the big screen between matches. There should never be a time when an audience member should need to ask, "What's going on?"

Suggestion: There should be ever present graphics between matches with the following info:
-Time since last match ended, previous match number, teams that played, outcome of the match.
-Upcoming match number, teams that are playing and their current ranks
-Some sort of graphic showing the phases between matches, with the current phase highlighted (scoring, robot removal, robot placement, connecting to field, ready for match) If a timeout is called, display the number of the team that called it, and a countdown clock. If there is an administrative timeout between finals matches, put up that graphic and countdown clock. If it's lunchtime, put up a graphic with a countdown clock until matches resume.

Having this info displayed would also make watching online streaming matches much easier to follow.

So, my solution to ending public confusion is simply to provide the information the public (and everyone else) wants to know: What's happening right now? What just happened? What's going to happen next? When will the next thing happen?

I really like the idea of this. I think an improvement in the pit would be having more calls for match cueing. At Hub City, our alliance partner almost missed the match due to "last call for match ___" not ever being said. Same goes with Dallas. The Pit Admin called "Cueing for match ___" once and never followed up until the next match is being cued.

[The other Gabe]

the games themselves are quite confusing, but we can't really get rid of those

[The other Gabe]

I'm down with banning the Chicken Dance (and take the Macerena with you when you go)!

noooo not the Macerena :'(

On a different note; these competitions are not done for the bystanders, but for those who spent an inordinate amount of their time building a robot and want to have fun at these events. and let me tell you, after 2 hours straight of sitting, scouting matches, a dance break is more than welcome (especially at districts- those darned bleachers hurt!). Part of the atmosphere of FIRST is having fun at events, being serious only when needed and having fun the rest of the time. and awards cannot necessarily be given in between matches; if not given at the end of the event, some teams' improvements/cool stuff they do cannot be seen until near the end.

I could also go off on a tangent about how much I dislike your petition to end the shouting of robot, because that was another thing I liked about the atmosphere of FRC competitions, but that's for another place

[Basel A]

As someone who probably hasn't danced at an FRC competition since 2009 (my freshman year of HS), I think it's obvious the effect it has on the energy level of the students and the competition. As odd as it is to have so much dancing at a robotics competition, removing it I believe would be detrimental to the impact that FRC has.

[GreyingJay]

Yes, I liked the fact that showing up at an FRC event felt like going to any other sporting event like a hockey tournament, complete with silly music, sound effects, cheering, the wave, and so on.

Anything that makes STEM seem like a fun party time is a good thing, I think.

My local university used to broadcast courses on a cable TV channel. One that I would periodically tune into was some civil engineering course where the project was to build a bridge out of popsicle sticks. The prof would then load-test each bridge design to see how much weight it could handle before catastrophic failure. It was fun to watch - sort of - the guy was your typical dry stuffy prof and there was obviously mostly silence as he did the work in front of a quiet classroom. Your average jr high or high schooler would have got bored and switched the channel pretty quick.

Compare that with the energy levels at an FRC regional.

[Sperkowsky]

I think this thread went off bad. The op was never saying to ban dancing just to mix it up a bit.

[RoboMom]

3 years we got rid of our VIP program for the Chesapeake Regional and created a visitor program that allows visitors (including VIPs) to pick what they want to see and how much time they want to spend. We have menus, trained student and adult ambassadors, and have branded this "FIRST Stop". Stops can include sitting with an ambassador field side for a few matches, following an inspector, getting a tour of the NASA machine shop, visiting FLL/FTC/Jr.FLL, doing a round with a safety advisor, sitting with a team, talking with volunteers. It personalizes the visits, gives the "behind the scenes" look and the visitors leave understanding a lot more about the culture of FIRST (including all the dancing). It has been very well received.

A FRC event can be a confusing place for the uninitiated.

[BethMo]

I think the single thing that would make matches less confusing for the public is for the announcers to use team names instead of numbers. (And of course for the names to be displayed as prominently and visibly as the numbers currently are.) Team numbers just aren't memorable for most people (with a few exceptions like 2468).

[Billfred]

I think the single thing that would make matches less confusing for the public is for the announcers to use team names instead of numbers. (And of course for the names to be displayed as prominently and visibly as the numbers currently are.) Team numbers just aren't memorable for most people (with a few exceptions like 2468).As a game announcer, I'd dispute that some teams made their numbers all that prominent! :rolleyes: It's actually in our training to pair the number with what will help the crowd keep up with the action...but part of that social contract is that teams have to give us something to work with! I'd love it if every team had a sick color scheme (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/38796) or was loud about their sponsors (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/14969) or just had a neat gimmick (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/31240). Instead, (and I link to one of my past robots because I've been guilty too), we ship plain robots (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/30520). (We did fancy that one up in the pits, to our credit.) It's something to work on for a lot of teams.

With the dancing, I see why FIRST generally does it that way: it keeps the energy level high versus starting and stopping as awards tend to be. Championship is different--more speakers force the hand, plus awards in the past--but Championship also has 100% of HQ's focus, planning, and manpower to pull it off. The rest of us are amateurs. ;)

I do like using the scoring display for more timeout detail than the field timer can display. Alliance timeout vs. field timeout, perhaps a backup team countdown, things like that. I know most events I attend have kids dancing on screen during a timeout, so it's not like it's running over a sponsor roll every time--but if so, just block out a safe area and plan accordingly. Easy!

[sanddrag]

I like that this thread has not taken a turn toward overly opinionated viewpoints, and has not focused only on the dancing. Really, we're answering the question of "Who exactly is Joe Public and what does he think of our program?"

I like some of the suggestions brought forth so far.

I like Koko Ed's suggestions. I could do without the Macarena and the Chicken Dance song. These are the two that really make me feel like "What is this and where is the robotics competition?" when I walk in the doors.

[GeeTwo]

Up front, let me admit that I read only OP, not all of the ones in between.

It's simply in the nature of people that anything we do together, that we consider important, will quickly become full of tradition. The Navy's full of it, the Army's full of it, the Church is full of it, and the Moose Lodge is full of it. Most of these traditions are confusing to the outside community. When we identify a tradition that is detrimental to the community, it is certainly a mark of the community's vibrancy that it can discard tradition in pursuit of its higher goals. Cutting the calls of "robot" to only those situations necessary to clear a crowded corridor was perfectly sensible.

Line dancing, on the other hand, is something we do together. As the song Dancing in the Moonlight so eloquently declares:
Everybody here is out of sight - they don't bark and they don't bite. .... You can't dance and stay uptight.. I think it's absolutely marvelous to see hundreds of kids wearing dozens of uniforms all moving together. I can't wait until my first trip to championships where it will be thousands of kids wearing hundreds of uniforms. And OBTW - a good fraction of the people watching also know these same line dances, and are probably making the same moves in their hindbrains if not their feet. The real message that these traditions send is that yes, these kids are real kids, and many of them like to bust a move just as much as anyone else.

[April_robo]

I personally love the silly dance songs. After sitting there for most of the day scouting it's nice to have a dance break. Also for the people who don't understand the game and what is going on, most will just turn to the person next to them, who is wearing a team uniform most likely, and ask.

I was recently volunteering at the FiM Livonia district event and a UL safety advisor was sitting in the chair beside me next to the field. He politely leaned over and asked me what was going on. So I gave him a brief description of what was going on and why it was happening. Also he had his young daughter with him and when a dance song was being played the volunteers would dance on or near the field and we tried to get her engaged in the dancing too. Although she was shy she looked like she enjoyed watching us dance and have fun.

[Chief Hedgehog]

There have been a great number of ideas thus far for the FRC events. I am a person that has had a long history of competing in and coaching sports such as Football, Soccer, and Wrestling. So when I attended my first regional in 2013 I was taken aback by what I experienced. Where was the seriousness in all of this celebration? These kids just worked their arses off for 6 weeks to prepare for competition - why the joy before the final outcome?

Then it hit me - Why the joy and celebration? Because these kids have worked their arses off for 6 straight weeks forgoing lazy Saturdays in exchange for aluminum shavings and JB Weld. They have struggled, been frustrated, fought, finagled, redesigned, failed, failed, and failed again before they found a sliver of success. They have been with each other for too long... they have been with their mentors too long.

And now they compete. Whether it means the robot moves, or climbs a rung, or blocks a shot, or throws an exercise ball that clears the FTA tables - these kids did what most kids never do. Fail - time and time again. They fail in front of their peers - their teammates, and then try again. So when their robot is ready to compete - a robot that represents the collective goal of 4, 10, 20, or 34 kids - yes there is a reason to celebrate like idiots!

My first season as a FRC coach I had a student that was the most introverted of kids I have ever taught. So when he was in our Darth Maul mascot dancing the Macarena - his mom reached over and asked: "Is that really my boy? Is Zach really out there dancing in front of everyone?" She had tears streaming down her cheeks.

Yes, we do allow this in FRC. It is not for the spectators. It is for the students.

[MooreteP]

There have been a great number of ideas thus far for the FRC events. I am a person that has had a long history of competing in and coaching sports such as Football, Soccer, and Wrestling. So when I attended my first regional in 2013 I was taken aback by what I experienced. Where was the seriousness in all of this celebration? These kids just worked their arses off for 6 weeks to prepare for competition - why the joy before the final outcome?

Then it hit me - Why the joy and celebration? Because these kids have worked their arses off for 6 straight weeks forgoing lazy Saturdays in exchange for aluminum shavings and JB Weld. They have struggled, been frustrated, fought, finagled, redesigned, failed, failed, and failed again before they found a sliver of success. They have been with each other for too long... they have been with their mentors too long.

And now they compete. Whether it means the robot moves, or climbs a rung, or blocks a shot, or throws an exercise ball that clears the FTA tables - these kids did what most kids never do. Fail - time and time again. They fail in front of their peers - their teammates, and then try again. So when their robot is ready to compete - a robot that represents the collective goal of 4, 10, 20, or 34 kids - yes there is a reason to celebrate like idiots!

My first season as a FRC coach I had a student that was the most introverted of kids I have ever taught. So when he was in our Darth Maul mascot dancing the Macarena - his mom reached over and asked: "Is that really my boy? Is Zach really out there dancing in front of everyone?" She had tears streaming down her cheeks.

Yes, we do allow this in FRC. It is not for the spectators. It is for the students.
^This^

[asid61]

-snip-
Yes, we do allow this in FRC. It is not for the spectators. It is for the students.

I totally agree with you that students deserve the celebration. It's great for them to do that, and I hope that the dancing tradition continues (although too often I find myself in the pits when the dancing is going on...). More songs would be nice though; I despise hearing the Cupid Shuffle over and over again.
But FIRST's mission is for both spectators and students, not one or the other. To have more students inspired there must be more spectators inspired.

[wilsonmw04]

Yes, we do allow this in FRC. It is not for the spectators. It is for the students.

Exactly. You deserve a cookie :-)

[Steven Donow]

It's interesting to see what confuses people...my roommates stopped by the Northeastern District this weekend and I spent probably 20 minutes afterwards trying to explain alliance selection to them...("Wait, so you're picking to use another robot in the finals? Why wouldn't you use your own robot?") The game made perfect sense to them, aside from litter ("doesn't having a human player defeat the purpose of it being a robotics competition?")

Then there's my grandma who thought last year's game made the most sense out of every game she's seen (2007 onwards)

Then there's my dad who texted me after a match in Rhode Island, "Why did your ranking go down when you won the match?"

The public is just generally confusing themselves....

[MooreteP]

Exactly. You deserve a cookie :-)

No, Cheesecake!

[Gregor]

Between both teams and announcers, it can get very confusing when people refer to the game pieces variously as totes, containers, RCs, litter, noodles, crates, bins, barrels, garbage cans, yellow totes, coop totes, "cooperation" totes, cans, et cetera. Can we get some consistency (especially from the announcers)?

Edit: Regarding chanting "red/blue alliance", it's very similar to chanting "Let's go Huskies [or insert other team name here]".

My favourite is "1310 going for the coopertition stack in autonomous!"

[BlueLipstick]

It's interesting to see what confuses people...my roommates stopped by the Northeastern District this weekend and I spent probably 20 minutes afterwards trying to explain alliance selection to them...("Wait, so you're picking to use another robot in the finals? Why wouldn't you use your own robot?") The game made perfect sense to them, aside from litter ("doesn't having a human player defeat the purpose of it being a robotics competition?")

This^ Of all the 'confusing' things to work on, the dances seem like the most comprehensible to the public, because it resembles other sporting events.

[JamesCH95]

The premise of this whole thread is silly in my opinion.

Main-stream professional sports have all sorts of traditions that seem weird to outsiders: the Red Wings' lucky octopus, playoff beards, vuvuzelas, shouting "ole ole ole", the Red Socks playing "sweet caroline", dumping gatorade on the coach, endzone/goal dances, drinking milk after the Indy 500... the list goes on and on.

It's all weird. It shows that no one is taking what they're doing TOO seriously, and I think it is good that we do kinda weird things at robotics events. It helps everyone get into the spirit of the event and feel more like a unified group.

Having said that, I'd be okay if "cotton-eyed joe" was never played again.

[Bertman]

with the exception of some specific songs, there are certainly parts that I can personally do without, but buy and large it ain't broke and if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Explaining things to new folk will be a universal constant.

We could definetly say goodbye to Y M C A and I would not mourn it's loss

[matthewdenny]

The one thing that hurts the spectator value in my opinion is match turn around. 2 minutes of action and 7 minutes of field reset can make it hard to get into it for spectators. The entire event is basically 3 hours of excitement that takes a day and a half. I have no idea how to change this (or if we should even try), but if by magic you could watch the whole thing in 3 hours strait it would make for a more spectator friendly environment.

[MooreteP]

The one thing that hurts the spectator value in my opinion is match turn around. 2 minutes of action and 7 minutes of field reset can make it hard to get into it for spectators. The entire event is basically 3 hours of excitement that takes a day and a half. I have no idea how to change this (or if we should even try), but if by magic you could watch the whole thing in 3 hours strait it would make for a more spectator friendly environment.

Kinda like baseball?
I don't know if you have ever watched a video of only matches, one after the other, non-stop. It gets a little tiresome.
Sometimes, the space between the movements is as important as the song itself.

[AJCaliciuri]

Growing up with FIRST, the thing I always loved an looked forward to most was the dancing. It's so quintessentially FIRST for me at this point, I can't imagine a Regional without it. I think it adds to the excitement and energy of the competition and can also be a great display of sportsmanship with members of teams on both alliances dancing together and having fun.

I agree, to outsiders, it may be a bit confusing during the Playoffs to have random dance breaks, but there aren't many alternatives. Most of the Regionals in Canada this year showed the "FRC Rhapsody" and "All about Them Totes" music videos, which filled a few timeouts.

I like the idea of some more audience interaction with facts, quizzes and playing the animation a few times.

However, I don't think its a good idea to hold awards during those 6-minute timeouts. Logistically, it's just too much. With the judges and MC having to be on the field while game elements are still in place, with robots on the field, and with entire teams having to come down to collect, it's just way too much and would probably cause more delays than time it would save.

To address this:

Between both teams and announcers, it can get very confusing when people refer to the game pieces variously as totes, containers, RCs, litter, noodles, crates, bins, barrels, garbage cans, yellow totes, coop totes, "cooperation" totes, cans, et cetera. Can we get some consistency (especially from the announcers?

I was a rookie Game Announcer this year at the North Bay Regional, and I get it. I admit that I interchanged a lot of terms while I was calling matches, and the other veteran Game Announcer admitted that he did too.

Before this season, I always called Totes Orbis Bins, which unfortunately caused some confusion during Matches.

I can tell you that I definitely did not use the wrong terms on purpose. I know what terms the FRC Manual uses, but in the heat of the moment, I was less concerned with using the wrong term and more concerned with keeping up with the action on the field.

I can't speak for anyone else, but that would be my answer to your question.

[sanddrag]

After starting this thread, I've realized a few things:


The goofy songs are highly valued by many in our program
We don't have a clear and consistent focus on anything that confuses the public
Rather than changing our program for the sake of the public's understanding, we need to work harder to educate the public about what we do


Those points said, I think I've gained all I was looking to get from this discussion. I'm fine with letting this thread fall into oblivion. Now, let's get back to our cleanup work on those handful of events where yelling "Robot!" is still a thing. ;)

[MooreteP]

The dancing at the PNCMP is epic.