View Full Version : 2015 Champs Discussion
Ginger Power
06-04-2015, 22:52
Since the other thread I started was blown up by discussion about strategies, thoughts, question etc. involving the 2015 Championship I figured I'd start a thread for that specific purpose. Hopefully a mod can move that great discussion to this thread.
EricAnderson191
06-04-2015, 23:19
Since my questions make more sense here, I copied them over:
What do you think the expansion to 8 divisions does to the alliance choosing process.
Also, if I was in charge of division placement I would work hard to keep the powerhouse teams spread out to avoid say 254 and 1114 having a chance to work together.
Are division placements random?
Eric
PVCpirate
06-04-2015, 23:31
I'm not sure how the divisions are done exactly. I'm remembering random with weighting based on team age, so each division has about the same number of rookies, second year teams, etc, but I'm not totally sure. I'm reasonably sure they don't do things like "these are the 5 best robots, let's make sure they're in different divisions" though.
George A.
06-04-2015, 23:34
Since my questions make more sense here, I copied them over:
What do you think the expansion to 8 divisions does to the alliance choosing process.
Also, if I was in charge of division placement I would work hard to keep the powerhouse teams spread out to avoid say 254 and 1114 having a chance to work together.
Are division placements random?
Eric
I think with 8 divisions there will be a lot more parity than in years past. Plus this game has a theoretical limit to it (x amount of totes and however man RCs and alliance can grab).
Also if you look if two "powerhouses" from any division pair up with a halfway effective can burglar then it's anyone's game. For instance who is to say that if 1114 and 2056 pair up (insert third robot here) they have any better of a chance to win compared to 254 and 148 (with their third robot). Basically it'll come down to a solid third robot and who drives the most perfect matches
Christopher149
06-04-2015, 23:38
According to the FRC Blog (I don't have the post handy), at least 2014 CMP had divisions sorted out by spreading the rookies out evenly, and then assigning teams in order that they qualified.
tindleroot
06-04-2015, 23:43
According to the FRC Blog (I don't have the post handy), at least 2014 CMP had divisions sorted out by spreading the rookies out evenly, and then assigning teams in order that they qualified.
I believe it was the order that teams registered, but that is nearly the same thing. However, last year's Curie division was loaded with big-name teams, including 5 of the 7 three-event winners (there are way more than 7 this year, though).
BBray_T1296
07-04-2015, 01:29
It is all about the cans. Whoever gets the cans wins.
It doesn't matter if 254, 1114 and 148 end up on an alliance if they lose the can battles it makes almost no difference whether they stack every other tote in the Dome.
In the PNW District Champs, it all came down to who got the cans from the middle step in auto. 1983 was seeded 3rd and we chose 2930 because they had a wicked fast can grabber (I like to call it a sniper) and we also chose 955 because they were a stacker too. In the semifinals and finals it was the CAN WARS!!!!!! The more cans the better. The team that can stack high and has a can theft auto (autonomous can grabber) will most likely be in Einstein.
Not too much to discuss, really. Einstein will be decided in the first 150 milliseconds, perhaps sooner. If you get 3 of the step cans, it's impossible to lose.
Michael Corsetto
07-04-2015, 01:56
Not too much to discuss, really. Einstein will be decided in the first 150 milliseconds, perhaps sooner. If you get 3 of the step cans, it's impossible to lose.
Truth.
themccannman
07-04-2015, 04:26
Since my questions make more sense here, I copied them over:
What do you think the expansion to 8 divisions does to the alliance choosing process.
Also, if I was in charge of division placement I would work hard to keep the powerhouse teams spread out to avoid say 254 and 1114 having a chance to work together.
Are division placements random?
Eric
Division placement is done roughly by sign-up order. Also if you're really so determined to keep any good teams from pairing up how exactly do you plan to place ~30 teams in 8 divisions without any of those teams being together? I don't know if you've ever been to CMP before but nearly every division has at least 4 alliances that would fall under your qualification of "unfair power alliance". It's not really unfair when every alliance is strong. Alliance choosing process will be exactly the same, perhaps fewer strong alliances since there will be a lower concentration of the higher scoring teams in each division but otherwise the same.
Not too much to discuss, really. Einstein will be decided in the first 150 milliseconds, perhaps sooner. If you get 3 of the step cans, it's impossible to lose.
/thread
Noudvanbrunscho
07-04-2015, 04:37
Isn't it likely that both alliances will get 2 containers from the step in AUTO? I haven't seen a 4 can grabber which is fast enough. And then it comes down to litter points or some extra tote stacks..?
John Retkowski
07-04-2015, 07:21
Isn't it likely that both alliances will get 2 containers from the step in AUTO? I haven't seen a 4 can grabber which is fast enough. And then it comes down to litter points or some extra tote stacks..?
If I were in the top eight at champs the only robots on my pick list would be canburglers (maybe they can do other stuff too.) I would want to make sure ALL of the cans were on my side of the field to have the best chance at winning. Also it's very possible that an alliance captain will already be able to get two cans so they could then pick one canburgler and one stacker.
If I were in the top eight at champs the only robots on my pick list would be canburglers (maybe they can do other stuff too.) I would want to make sure ALL of the cans were on my side of the field to have the best chance at winning. Also it's very possible that an alliance captain will already be able to get two cans so they could then pick one canburgler and one stacker.
The difficulty with this is that if all that you have is canburglers and no stackers, then you don't have anything to put all of your recycling containers on and they'll be worth absolutely zero. You really need a well-balanced alliance.
Steven Donow
07-04-2015, 08:33
From the A-Z guide: (http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/uploadedFiles/Robotics_Programs/FRC/Game_and_Season__Info/2015/2015_FRC_CMP_A-Z.pdf)
Drive Team Badges: Each team will receive four (4) badges in its registration packet. Wear the
badge on the front of your shirt near the left shoulder, so referees, judges, and queuers can see it.
These badges allow the wearers access to the playing field and designate:
One (1) Coach (this badge has a dot on it. The Coach cannot score points or drive the robot.)
Two (2) Drivers
One (1) Feeder
Different badges for human players?
From the A-Z guide: (http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/uploadedFiles/Robotics_Programs/FRC/Game_and_Season__Info/2015/2015_FRC_CMP_A-Z.pdf)
Different badges for human players?
I think the "Feeder" is the Human Player, as my interpretation is that it's named that way because they "feed" totes through the chute, among other things.
From the A-Z guide: (http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/uploadedFiles/Robotics_Programs/FRC/Game_and_Season__Info/2015/2015_FRC_CMP_A-Z.pdf)
Different badges for human players?
It doesn't mention that the badges are different, and as I've seen at regionals this year they haven't been. I'd be really surprised if this changed.
John Retkowski
08-04-2015, 08:39
The difficulty with this is that if all that you have is canburglers and no stackers, then you don't have anything to put all of your recycling containers on and they'll be worth absolutely zero. You really need a well-balanced alliance.
I couldn't agree more. I meant that it depends on what the alliance captain can do. For instance if the alliance captain can steal two cans off the step, they would probably be best picking another canburgler as their first pick and a stacker as a second. If the alliance captain is good at stacking however, it would be better to pick two canburglers. The situation gets more complex when you add in the factor that at championship, the level of play is probably high enough that at least one if not both canburglers are also going to be decent landfill bots/ stackers in general.
As said before, as long as your alliance gets all four cans off the step, you odds of winning increase exponentially, regardless of if you use all of those cans or not.
I'm not sure how the divisions are done exactly. I'm remembering random with weighting based on team age, so each division has about the same number of rookies, second year teams, etc, but I'm not totally sure. I'm reasonably sure they don't do things like "these are the 5 best robots, let's make sure they're in different divisions" though.
its random to a certain degree, but even that can lad to unbalanced alliances im thinking of specifically 2012 archimedes division where you had 67, 2056, 1114 on the same division among other greats.
Alex2614
08-04-2015, 13:48
its random to a certain degree, but even that can lad to unbalanced alliances im thinking of specifically 2012 archimedes division where you had 67, 2056, 1114 on the same division among other greats.
HAHA, we were on Archimedes 2012. It was... interesting. It seems we always get put in the toughest division, except for last year. We somehow managed to avoid Curie :D
HAHA, we were on Archimedes 2012. It was... interesting. It seems we always get put in the toughest division, except for last year. We somehow managed to avoid Curie :D
We were in Archimedes in 2012 AND Curie last year. It's definitely harder to get picked in a tough division, but it makes for a really awesome match schedule!
Not too much to discuss, really. Einstein will be decided in the first 150 milliseconds, perhaps sooner. If you get 3 of the step cans, it's impossible to lose.
Though you must score all of them to guarantee your win.
Alex2614
08-04-2015, 15:08
We were in Archimedes in 2012 AND Curie last year. It's definitely harder to get picked in a tough division, but it makes for a really awesome match schedule!
I wouldn't really call our schedule from Archimedes all that awesome, but yeah :p
Anupam Goli
08-04-2015, 15:09
Though you must score all of them to guarantee your win.
At regional competitions, this may have been tough to do. However, I think most alliances formed at championships will be able to score 5 or more cans.
Kevin Leonard
08-04-2015, 15:11
Though you must score all of them to guarantee your win.
Realistically, if you steal 3 cans, all you need to do to win 90% of matches would be 5 stacks. Your opponents are limited to 4 capped stacks, so unless they have some serious firepower, they're done.
tindleroot
08-04-2015, 15:45
At regional competitions, this may have been tough to do. However, I think most alliances formed at championships will be able to score 5 or more cans.
There is still a luck factor involved, though. The #1 seed at IN State Champs was approaching a 200 match score in their second quarterfinals match when (in the last 5 seconds!) one of their alliance members accidentally knocked over two stacks of 6, topped and noodled and everything. Luckily for the alliance, they scored enough points that match to make it on to semifinals by a slim margin, and they got over that mistake and went on to win the whole thing.
Teams should be aware that mistakes/problems can happen even when you least expect them, and you should never take anything for granted, especially in matches as close as Einstein will be.
Jonathan Norris
08-04-2015, 15:53
I've been thinking about the new eliminations format for the last couple days, the need to schedule more time for Division and Einstein eliminations has become pretty obvious (maybe we will end on time this year!), but I am worried that alliance selection on Saturday morning gives a massive advantage to the top couple seeds.
As most of you know the top couple seeded alliances are usually formed before teams line up for alliance selection, it hasn't really been an issue in the past because alliance selection usually occurs directly after the last qualification match. But at champs this year the last matches are Friday afternoon and alliance selection doesn't occur until Saturday Morning, giving the top couple seeds a massive advantage as they can form alliances Friday afternoon and start strategizing their match and picking strategy. Its usually difficult to figure alliances past the top 3-4 seeds, thus the lower seeded alliances are going to be at a major strategic disadvantage going into alliance selection.
The only possible solution I can see is a split alliance selection, where the first round of alliance selection is done at the end of the day on Friday, and the other two rounds are done on Saturday morning (mainly to make sure teams don't pack up and leave on Friday??...).
Alex2614
08-04-2015, 16:21
Realistically, if you steal 3 cans, all you need to do to win 90% of matches would be 5 stacks. Your opponents are limited to 4 capped stacks, so unless they have some serious firepower, they're done.
Are you talking qualifications or playoffs? In qualifications, it won't hurt your so-called "opponents" all that much, but will help you tremendously. In playoffs it is a different story.
Kevin Leonard
08-04-2015, 16:26
Are you talking qualifications or playoffs? In qualifications, it won't hurt your so-called "opponents" all that much, but will help you tremendously. In playoffs it is a different story.
Finals. If you have 3 cans, and you make 5 full stacks, it's almost impossible to lose.
Citrus Dad
08-04-2015, 17:04
Though you must score all of them to guarantee your win.
No, do the Can Math. You don't need to score all of them to win a match in Finals. And even in Semis, it's a huge advantage.
Citrus Dad
08-04-2015, 17:05
Are you talking qualifications or playoffs? In qualifications, it won't hurt your so-called "opponents" all that much, but will help you tremendously. In playoffs it is a different story.
Few will bring out their canburglars for quals, but there also will be few matches over 200.
EricAnderson191
08-04-2015, 18:33
Division placement is done roughly by sign-up order. Also if you're really so determined to keep any good teams from pairing up how exactly do you plan to place ~30 teams in 8 divisions without any of those teams being together? I don't know if you've ever been to CMP before but nearly every division has at least 4 alliances that would fall under your qualification of "unfair power alliance". It's not really unfair when every alliance is strong. Alliance choosing process will be exactly the same, perhaps fewer strong alliances since there will be a lower concentration of the higher scoring teams in each division but otherwise the same.
/thread
I was wondering if FIRST Tries to construct divisions the way the NCAA constructs the basketball brackets. It appears this is not the case but it would be something for FIRST to consider.
After all, imagine the threads on CD if this actually happened!
Eric
themccannman
08-04-2015, 19:01
Realistically, if you steal 3 cans, all you need to do to win 90% of matches would be 5 stacks. Your opponents are limited to 4 capped stacks, so unless they have some serious firepower, they're done.
They have to make up an additional 42 points if you only make 5 stacks (21 totes on the platform). If you steal all 7 cans and put up 5, or steal 3 and put up 6, that's an 84 point difference, which is basically impossible.
seanthompson
09-04-2015, 00:03
Burglaring all 4 cans in finals is abolutely a chokehold, but not so much in quarters or semis, depending upon the stacking abilities of your burglaring robots. Of course, top tier teams will most likely have both the best stackers and best can grabbers. The real strategy/drama will occur when a team can grab 2 (or maybe all 4?!?) cans faster than anyone, but can't stack really at all. No sure if many or any robots like that exist though.
themccannman
09-04-2015, 18:39
Burglaring all 4 cans in finals is abolutely a chokehold, but not so much in quarters or semis, depending upon the stacking abilities of your burglaring robots. Of course, top tier teams will most likely have both the best stackers and best can grabbers. The real strategy/drama will occur when a team can grab 2 (or maybe all 4?!?) cans faster than anyone, but can't stack really at all. No sure if many or any robots like that exist though.
Their robots would have to be atrocious at stacking to not make 5 stacks between all 3 of them. I seriously doubt we will see an alliance like this at champs. Also grabbing the center cans actually does almost guarantee you a spot into the finals unless you do the absolute minimum possible, and two other alliances are playing out of their mind (both putting up 7 stacks in their matches that aren't against you).
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