View Full Version : Future First Championship News
I think it's pretty obvious that the same people behind the concept of this year's FR_ game are behind this "championship" idea.
marshall
09-04-2015, 14:21
I'm not sure how I feel about all of this at the moment. As a mentor, I have a lot of concerns and I haven't spoken to my students about it yet, which will help me make up my mind. Their input is by far the most valuable.
I did kind of figure that FIRST was going to have to split the big event in two after going through some of the nonsense last year and this year with hotel booking in St Louis. It's just too large for a single city at this point.
I'm just not sure that FIRST have fully thought through this plan but beyond that, it seems like they have left too many questions unanswered at this point. I think what we all want is a state of the union address from Kamen and Co that explains the thought process and the long term plan for FIRST and in particular, for FRC.
There is a lot at play here. From students and safety in a severely poverty stricken city, to an entire generation of FRC students who are becoming mentors, to a non-defensive game this year, to not being able to see some great friends we've met over the years at these events for a while... It's a lot to take in. I also suspect some of the frustration is because of the timing of this announcement.
I'll reserve final judgement and letter writing until after this season is over and the dust has settled but... It's hard for me to buy into the Olympic comparisons they are making when they are talking about having two sets of winners. You can't make everyone a winner... I think it takes away from the inspiration. That being said, two events was going to happen at some point.
Wow 7 pages in barely 3 hours. Oops 17 pages. Post 254. Suddenly I am feeling something strange. :)
Sorry I have not read all of them. So sorry if this is a me too.
First (a). I am amazed that they kept this a secret. Also a little input to the people it effects would have been be nice.
First (b) I am not looking as forward to a 600 team worlds as years past. It is going to be a logistical nightmare. Especial for the one responsible for transport the pits. Other have expressed concerned about QF matches with 64 team in the dome. So something had to give.
First (C) This it the last year for the undisputed worlds FRC champion!!! So bring your A game
First (D) I numbered this post to be consistent with the new world order.
I am aware that Mr. Bossi is the lead on the communique. However, Frank seems to be the man taking the measure of the First community and responding to its concerns....
Frank is the director of FRC, not the greater FIRST community which includes FLL and FTC.
This makes much more sense. Given that Champs is insanely large with 3 programs what would be your (or the Poofs') vision for FRC's future?
I only ask this specifically from the Poofs because (most) every post I've read from a Poofs mentor that has been proactive has produced insanely good ideas (some of which we don't realize how good until much later). The Poofs also produce incredible results when you put energy and focus into an effort. I think it's a fair statement that many teams already ask themselves "What Would the Poofs Do?" for many strategic and design decisions, so what would the Poofs do here?
I was just thinking the same thing -- if 254 were to "redo" FRC, what would they change?
Moving to a more broad question, what would happen if there was an FRC Advisory committee comprised of WFA winners from teams that helped direct the future of FRC? They wouldn't necessarily be on the GDC or anything, just helping to direct the future of FRC as would be best for the teams. Thoughts?
Sunshine
09-04-2015, 14:22
I agree. ;)
Thanks though, to Sunshine and to both of you for catching it before I even saw the post...
EDIT: And to Munchskull and to whoever else may end up replying.
My deep apologies Rachel. Again, your wisdom is greater than this old man's.
"There's plenty of room on the top for everyone" ... it's not a top if everyone is there.
I spent all morning being too angry/disappointed/stunned to be able to even post.
Still probably can't sum it up better than Jared did, so I will largely echo his comments.
It's amazing how fast FIRST was able to burn two years worth of goodwill fostered by Frank's openness and approachability, in one fell swoop. I fear we will look back and mark today as the day FRC began it's death throes.
FIRST has shown their true colors. They don't really care about the team experience. They don't even understand what the team experience is. If they cared, or understood what was important, they would have sought feedback before they decided to throw out the entire plan for expansion that they rolled out to us on their country-wide tour in the offseason 2-3 years ago.
Instead they chose a plan that will give them the most registration dollars, is just as inconvenient for teams on the west and east coasts as it was before, and will severely limit the opportunities for inspiration when students are not exposed to teams from other geographic locations.
We are paying FIRST large amounts of money. We are the customer. FIRST seemed like they were listening to our concerns (to some extent), but until there exists an alternative for us to take our dollars to, they know we are their hostages. The only way we can get the change we want is to take our dollars elsewhere, either to another competition program, or to boycott FRC and not compete.
As Jared has, I have dedicated 15 years of my life to this program...I don't think I can justify continuing to do that come 2017, if this change comes to fruition.
First (C) This it the last year for the undisputed worlds FRC champion!!! So bring your A game
In the video, FIRST specifies that we'll still have a single Championship event next year. 2017 is the first year with two "Championship" events.
LeelandS
09-04-2015, 14:24
So I've sat here and read every post on the 16 pages of content in this thread. And it has made me very depressed. Not because of the decision by FIRST. But because of the response by the community. I've seen a lot of downward spiral on Chief in the last few years, so I don't know why I'm surprised anymore.
There are very few people in the CD community who I look to for inspiring words and knowledge on subjects. And here now I see that most of them are saying they are going to leave unless FIRST changes their decision. True, that is their right. If they don't like it, they are obviously not obligated to continue to stay. But these people were my role models. Not any more.
I've never had the luxury of being on a team with the competitiveness or finances to attend worlds every year. \So if the structure changes, what do I know about it? I love FIRST and I will always continue to be a part of it, as long as I am able.
I guess the most disappointing part to me about this whole thread is most of us have spent the last several years since Frank stepped into his position showering social media with phrases like "Good Guy Frank!" or "Frank for President!". A relatively overwhelming positive response. He has shown us consistently that he cares about what we have to say; he shows us that he reads what people post on CD and most often will respond to it in his blog. Frank cares. Frank tries to give us everything we need to have a positive experience. It looks to me like everyone has disregarded this fact and just hopped onto an angry mob mindset. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe Frank will be addressing the concerns of the community in the future.
Yes, it's an interesting change. Yes, I respect it devalues the experience of a world championship event. Yes, I understand that a lot of people are upset they won't get to see friends at world.
Weird, it's almost like we are part of a program that allows us to have an active off-season period that can be just as exciting and enriching as the official season. People have already echoed that IRI will be the "true world championship." That has been said for years now. There are events all over the country where teams come from all over the world to compete. Not just IRI. Chezy champs, Rah Cha Cha Ruckus, Battlycry, MARC. And others. There are options.
Andrew Schreiber
09-04-2015, 14:24
I'm going to leave a few things here that basically encompass just part of the feelings I'm having:
Philadelphia to St. Louis: 2 hr, 25 min
Philadelphia to Houston: 3 hr, 30 min
Philadelphia to Detroit: 1 hr, 35 min
Detroit is a winner, right? No. Is everyone overlooking the fact that Detroit is the most dangerous city in America? Its clear that the people making these decisions have never once in their life chaperoned 50 high school students through a large metropolitan environment.
"Violent crime rate: 2,137 per 100,000 residents
The Motor City tops the list of America's Most Dangerous Cities for the fourth straight year thanks to a stubborn problem mostly with gang-related violence. Violent crimes fell 10% last year but are still running five times the national average."
http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mlj45jggj/1-detroit/
Isn't STL #2 or #3 on that list (I recall seeing Detroit, Flint, STL in the top spots but can't recall the order)
Truth, I haven't really been following it. I've walked alone, at night, in all three of them. There are sections that I certainly wouldn't walk alone at night (or with a team at night) but there are also sections I'd feel completely safe in.
Disclaimer - I'm a Michigan native, I grew up 45 minutes from Detroit and went to college in Flint.
The location choices are lnteresting. not sure it's going to save my team any money. Both Houston and Detriot are out of the question in terms of driving distance from SC. I miss having the championship in my backyard.
We drove to Atlanta pretty much every year. The drive is not as bad as you might think.
WillRobinson
09-04-2015, 14:29
"There's plenty of room on the top for everyone" ... it's not a top if everyone is there.
Great comment! Recommended as quote.
orangemoore
09-04-2015, 14:29
Wow 7 pages in barely 3 hours. Sorry I have not read all of them. So sorry if this is a me too.
First (a). I am amazed that they kept this a secret. Also a little input to the people it effects would have been be nice.
First (b) I am not looking as forward to a 600 team worlds as years past. It is going to be a logistical nightmare. Especial for the one responsible for transport the pits. Other have expressed concerned about QF matches with 64 team in the dome. So something had to give.
First (C) This it the last year for the undisputed worlds FRC champion!!! So bring your A game
First (D) I numbered this post to be consistent with the new world order.
Next year is the last year.
Carolyn_Grace
09-04-2015, 14:32
We drove to Atlanta pretty much every year. The drive is not as bad as you might think.
I have fond memories of that drive. Get a coach bus. Put overload mentors in a van and drive down. Take turns at the wheel. Put a couple chaperones on the coach, or college mentors who need to do homework. Schedule stops at exits with multiple fast food restaurants. Watch bad movies (ahem, Red Green Show) and sing songs. It's like a 10 hours summer camp with your best buds.
Plus, the ride back is great: sleep. sleep. sleep. recover.
Jared Russell
09-04-2015, 14:33
This makes much more sense. Given that Champs is insanely large with 3 programs what would be your (or the Poofs') vision for FRC's future?
I only ask this specifically from the Poofs because (most) every post I've read from a Poofs mentor that has been proactive has produced insanely good ideas (some of which we don't realize how good until much later). The Poofs also produce incredible results when you put energy and focus into an effort. I think it's a fair statement that many teams already ask themselves "What Would the Poofs Do?" for many strategic and design decisions, so what would the Poofs do here?
I can only speak for myself, but I thought FIRST was on a really good trajectory with their Districts->Super Regional->World Championship concept. I think it's possible to implement that in a way that provides realistic (but difficult) goals to most teams, reduces team costs, keeps it to the same number of days of missed work/school and travel, and maintains a really high competitive bar at the Championship.
The Championship itself would need to become more spectator friendly in order for many of the benefits of co-locating the world's best to continue to hold, and it would be awesome for it to become the sort of event where teams send students to be inspired, learn from, and be entertained by some really awesome robots and teams. That's a stepping stone to it becoming an event where even non-FRC participants will show up or tune in in significant numbers.
nuclearnerd
09-04-2015, 14:36
The Motor City tops the list of America's Most Dangerous Cities for the fourth straight year thanks to a stubborn problem mostly with gang-related violence. Violent crimes fell 10% last year but are still running five times the national average."
http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mlj45jggj/1-detroit/
You know that that article has St. Louis as 2nd most dangerous right? We manage to chaperone thousands of kids through that city, and I haven't heard of any violent crime injuring FIRSTers yet (I hope I'm not mistaken).
Brandon_L
09-04-2015, 14:37
I can only speak for myself, but I thought FIRST was on a really good trajectory with their Districts->Super Regional->World Championship concept. I think there's a way to implement that in a way that provides realistic (but difficult) goals to most teams, reduces team costs, keeps it to the same number of days of missed work/school and travel, and maintains a really high competitive bar at the Championship.
The Championship itself would need to become more spectator friendly in order for many of the benefits of co-locating the world's best to continue to hold, and it would be awesome for it to become the sort of event where teams send students to be inspired, learn from, and be entertained by some really awesome robots and teams.
This might be a good point to start some constructive discussion.
I'm also a fan of the district->district CMP->super regional->CMP concept. The only true concern I have with it is the amount teams will most likely have to spend in just registration costs for 4 tiers of events assuming they go all the way. If any one of those tiers (or more if FIRST wants to be nice) were free for teams it could work. Perhaps district CMP? 5k/year for the entire district model sounds fair. Meanwhile less populated areas still in regionals would pay the same amount with one less tier, dropping DCMP and just having a single regional with winners moving on to the super regional.
I have fond memories of that drive.
Same here. As an adult busses sound lame but man as a kid an 10+ hour drive with your friends is amazing. (Especially with awful movies like Vertical Limit which we watched at least 5 times).
The locations aren't bad, I disagree with the concept of two separate championships. It's like stopping at the final four and never crowning a true winner. That's what frustrates me. Hopefully FIRST reads these and sees that there is an issue with this decision and reevaluates things. That's one thing that I respect Frank for. He always takes the time to reevaluate things and make changes, even if it isn't exactally what he wants to do he listens and makes educated decisions, I hope he does that this time too.
Steven Smith
09-04-2015, 14:39
So I've sat here and read every post on the 16 pages of content in this thread. And it has made me very depressed. Not because of the decision by FIRST. But because of the response by the community. I've seen a lot of downward spiral on Chief in the last few years, so I don't know why I'm surprised anymore.
<snip>
People are hurt... it's a big change, and it is scary. Deep down, I'm guessing many of us know that there will be a compromise, a longer term plan, appropriate discussions that get us closer to where we want to be. However in the near term, having the "World Champs" experience we know and love dramatically changed by literally splitting the community into two events... sucks?
And I don't see it to be any more contradictory to be vocal and frustrated at this announcement despite heaping praise onto FIRST/Frank in the last couple years... than to claim that people you have looked to as role models for years are no longer your role models because they are venting their frustration.
Frankly, this just caught a huge number of us by surprise today... and people are reacting. It doesn't mean people are immature, it doesn't mean they "value championship titles over students", or any other over-simplification. The details we were provided were not sufficient to ensure the championship experience we have today will either be maintained, or there is a path to it... so a number of folks are venting their frustration.
I wonder if an important question we need to ask ourselves is, "Is FRC a sport?"
If FRC is indeed a sport, then we can look at other sporting events, and how they work -- be it NFL, NBA, NCAA, etc. They all have a clear winner, multiple games, etc. They work where each "team" could be considered an alliance, and the alliances stick together the entire season, and sometimes players (teams) are traded between teams (alliances) during the offseason.
If FRC isn't a sport, then we can look at other non-sport events, and how they work -- be it Science Fairs, Trade shows, etc. They all just have people come out and show of/demo their creations and rarely have overall "winners."
Both methods inspire people, and both methods attract different audiences. Which "track" does FRC want to follow?
Munchskull
09-04-2015, 14:43
People are hurt... it's a big change, and it is scary. Deep down, I'm guessing many of us know that there will be a compromise, a longer term plan, appropriate discussions that get us closer to where we want to be. However in the near term, having the "World Champs" experience we know and love dramatically changed by literally splitting the community into two events... sucks?
And I don't see it to be any more contradictory to be vocal and frustrated at this announcement despite heaping praise onto FIRST/Frank in the last couple years... than to claim that people you have looked to as role models for years are no longer your role models because they are venting their frustration.
Frankly, this just caught a huge number of us by surprise today... and people are reacting. It doesn't make mean people are immature, it doesn't mean they "value championship titles over students", or any other over-simplification. The details we were provided were not sufficient to ensure the championship experience we have today will either be maintained, or there is a path to it... so a number of folks are venting their frustration.
Exactly. I just wish that FIRST would consult team.
Munchskull
09-04-2015, 14:44
I wonder if an important question we need to ask ourselves is, "Is FRC a sport?"
If FRC is indeed a sport, then we can look at other sporting events, and how they work -- be it NFL, NBA, NCAA, etc. They all have a clear winner, multiple games, etc. They work where each "team" could be considered an alliance, and the alliances stick together the entire season, and sometimes players (teams) are traded between teams (alliances) during the offseason.
If FRC isn't a sport, then we can look at other non-sport events, and how they work -- be it Science Fairs, Trade shows, etc. They all just have people come out and show of/demo their creations and rarely have overall "winners."
Both methods inspire people, and both methods attract different audiences. Which "track" does FRC want to follow?
Should the community get a say?
MrTechCenter
09-04-2015, 14:44
This might be a good point to start some constructive discussion.
I'm also a fan of the district->district CMP->super regional->CMP concept. The only true concern I have with it is the amount teams will most likely have to spend in just registration costs for 4 tiers of events assuming they go all the way. If any one of those tiers (or more if FIRST wants to be nice) were free for teams it could work. Perhaps district CMP? 5k/year for the entire district model sounds fair. Meanwhile less populated areas still in regionals would pay the same amount with one less tier, dropping DCMP and just having a single regional with winners moving on to the super regional.
I think that the cost of the two district events everyone gets with their registration fee can be driven down significantly. Most district events are held at high schools (some at college campuses) anyway. Having hosted an offseason competition the last two years, it's not that expensive to put on a competition for 30-40 teams. Where does that $5,000 that teams pay even go for district models? I imagine that after everyone has paid their $5,000 and any expenses have been paid for, there's probably still quite a bit a money left. It would be great if that extra money goes towards helping teams that are financially struggling or something of that sort, but something tells me that's not the case...
If somebody who's heavily involved in their district system could weigh-in on what the finances look like, it would be much appreciated.
Jared Russell
09-04-2015, 14:45
This might be a good point to start some constructive discussion.
I'm also a fan of the district->district CMP->super regional->CMP concept. The only true concern I have with it is the amount teams will most likely have to spend in just registration costs for 4 tiers of events assuming they go all the way. If any one of those tiers (or more if FIRST wants to be nice) were free for teams it could work. Perhaps district CMP? 5k/year for the entire district model sounds fair. Meanwhile less populated areas still in regionals would pay the same amount with one less tier, dropping DCMP and just having a single regional with winners moving on to the super regional.
I think three tiers is about as many as people can tolerate, which means District CMP needs to change into a Super Regional, or District CMP needs to qualify fewer teams for the World Championship. At some point, it's okay to have branching tiers of competition so that too many people aren't one and done (Champions League vs. Europa League in European soccer is probably a better comparison than NCAA vs. NIT).
I wonder if an important question we need to ask ourselves is, "Is FRC a sport?"
If FRC is indeed a sport, then we can look at other sporting events, and how they work -- be it NFL, NBA, NCAA, etc. They all have a clear winner, multiple games, etc. They work where each "team" could be considered an alliance, and the alliances stick together the entire season, and sometimes players (teams) are traded between teams (alliances) during the offseason.
If FRC isn't a sport, then we can look at other non-sport events, and how they work -- be it Science Fairs, Trade shows, etc. They all just have people come out and show of/demo their creations and rarely have overall "winners."
Both methods inspire people, and both methods attract different audiences. Which "track" does FRC want to follow?
Today, we are proud to announce that FIRST is about to change the game again, for the better! Beginning in 2017, we are expanding the FIRST Championship by bringing our Sport for the Mind™ to two FIRST Championship host cities.
Seems like First wants to be perceived as a sport for the mind...
I wonder if an important question we need to ask ourselves is, "Is FRC a sport?"
If FRC is indeed a sport, then we can look at other sporting events, and how they work -- be it NFL, NBA, NCAA, etc. They all have a clear winner, multiple games, etc. They work where each "team" could be considered an alliance, and the alliances stick together the entire season, and sometimes players (teams) are traded between teams (alliances) during the offseason.
If FRC isn't a sport, then we can look at other non-sport events, and how they work -- be it Science Fairs, Trade shows, etc. They all just have people come out and show of/demo their creations and rarely have overall "winners."
Both methods inspire people, and both methods attract different audiences. Which "track" does FRC want to follow?
Given that FIRST refers to its programs as "The ultimate Sport for the Mind™" I think it's pretty clear how they (used to) consider what their programs are.
PayneTrain
09-04-2015, 14:47
I can only speak for myself, but I thought FIRST was on a really good trajectory with their Districts->Super Regional->World Championship concept. I think there's a way to implement that in a way that provides realistic (but difficult) goals to most teams, reduces team costs, keeps it to the same number of days of missed work/school and travel, and maintains a really high competitive bar at the Championship.
The Championship itself would need to become more spectator friendly in order for many of the benefits of co-locating the world's best to continue to hold, and it would be awesome for it to become the sort of event where teams send students to be inspired, learn from, and be entertained by some really awesome robots and teams.
I envisioned the death of World Championships as we know it to come by the end of this decade (and Im not sure there is anyone who is remotely aware and active in FRC/FIRST who thinks otherwise.
I saw an ideal endgame would be to take the idea of World Championships and turn it into something like a super-IRI. A weekend in July has a 150 team event with two fields. Take the 16 super regional winners, the 4 HoF Finalists, the top 25-30 points earners over the season from each zone, and the final 10-30 spots that would be determined as some kind of wild card: a mixture of HoF teams that didn't make the points cut, the top rookies in the world, top points earners at every super regional that didn't make the cut (like a most-improved).
It's largely an exhibition, just like World Championships of any high school sport. It should be run by FRC, but you can call the award something like The Director's Cup. You can adjust the game rules to improve play at a high level, you disregard bag time, and you don't pay a registration fee to go.
You get 2 months to prepare for a truly magnificent spectator driven version of FRC. It's the All-Star game, the midsummer classic of robotics, and it's globally televised by Fox Sports 1 or NBC Sports or ESPN. They sponsor the telecast to remove the registration fees. They get two months to go out and interview and shoot b-roll of top competitors for segments. You get two fields so play doesn't have long lulls. You put the competition on a Friday and Saturday in the summer to avoid people losing vacation days or school time. You get to keep FIRST's idea of providing a championship type experience at what I think would better be known as "Zone Championships" and the idea of World Championships carries on in the FRC Grand Prix. People from all over the FRC world can come to watch and learn from the best teams. At the end, you crown the Chairman's Award Winner and the 3 Winner's of the President's Cup.
Why does the championship have to be so enormous? Even at 400 teams, it’s big enough to tax any city’s infrastructure, and there are only a handful of venues that are big enough to host it. It is not possible or necessary for everybody to attend the world championship.
Anupam Goli
09-04-2015, 14:48
In 2009, I casually wandered to the Championship event in downtown Atlanta, not knowing what to expect. My team had qualified with an engineering inspiration award, and I was excited. What I experienced at the championships was inspiring. Being able to see robots from around the world, ask questions and learn from teams like 1114 and 254 is not something you can do elsewhere, and seeing these machines live inspires you to improve.
Fast forward to today, my students are thrilled to win their first regional, and the other mentors on the team are thrilled to compete at the world championship for the first time since 2015. The goal for the last three years has been to make it to the eliminations at championships, but we needed to win a regional to make it first.The students are so excited that they'll be able to play with the big boys like 254, 118, 1114, etc. They watch all of these streams and are looking forward to seeing them up close.
Having two region-locked championships will not be inspiring to them. They want to see the best of the world, all in one place. They don't want to play in a watered down championship featuring half of the good teams, and the other half being teams who aren't championship event-caliber. Why put in the effort to win a regional when you're just going to go to a diluted "half championship"?
ASmith1675
09-04-2015, 14:48
The locations selected do see odd if the goal was to ease travel concerns. Flying to Houston or Detroit is probably a bit easier than to St Louis, but its definitely not any easier to drive to either of those locations from the coast.
Participating with teams that haven't moved to districts yet, its been a bit sad to see fewer and fewer teams from outside the state come to regional competitions. We used to see a good number of teams from Michigan at the Wisconsin and Midwest regionals, and now with Indiana in districts we no longer see friends from that state either. This is an understandable result of the district system, and I had hoped that we might begin to see inter-district play as the standard to allow some of those truly inspiring teams to spread their message beyond their state borders.
I am concerned that this change to the Championship event will further limit the cross-pollination of teams that many rarely get the chance to see in person. It seems like they want to create an east and west super-district. While I can see the logic in getting as many team as possible to experience the championship event, how would it feel if you couldn't see your favorite robot in person because of geography. West coast teams would likely never see 1114, and those on the east would never see 254. Sad for all involved.
I suppose its a good problem to have overall that the program has grown to this point. I just hope there is a better solution than to directly divide the country as it seems has been proposed.
Brandon_L
09-04-2015, 14:51
I think that the cost of the two district events everyone gets with their registration fee can be driven down significantly. Most district events are held at high schools (some at college campuses) anyway. Having hosted an offseason competition the last two years, it's not that expensive to put on a competition for 30-40 teams. Where does that $5,000 that teams pay even go for district models? I imagine that after everyone has paid their $5,000 and any expenses have been paid for, there's probably still quite a bit a money left. It would be great if that extra money goes towards helping teams that are financially struggling or something of that sort, but something tells me that's not the case...
If somebody who's heavily involved in their district system could weigh-in on what the finances look like, it would be much appreciated.
The 5k for the initial district registration also includes your kit don't forget, plus the two events. That's why I didn't touch the initial 5k. I believe a fair way to do it would be 5k initially with a free DCMP as Michigan was intended to be.
Jarad also has valid points, how many tiers are too many?
Citrus Dad
09-04-2015, 14:52
I will make a set of more neutral observations. I haven't come to a conclusion one way or another about this change.
I think that FIRST is facing an almost existential decision in the face of its success. The expansion of the FRC championship and moving FTC and FLL out of the Dome are a first step in that process. I expect that FIRST is asking what happens as participation rises and the championship expands. Last year, FIRST already noted that the number of teams qualifying would surpass 600 in short order. They probably believe that more than 600 is simply too large for any one venue. On the other hand, they want teams to have the same probability/opportunity to qualify for a "championship." To accomplish that goal, they decided to split the championship rather than squeeze the qualification criteria. I'm currently agnostic on whether that's the best option but I also understand the importance of maintaining the same incentives for a growing pool of teams. (Interesting work on that economics right now related to growing income equality.)
Not sure if this perspective helps, but maybe we can start a discussion about what should be the goals of FIRST and FRC, and what options are available to meet those. The district/super regional/champs was one, but that tends to narrow the final qualifying pool.
On a side note, I'm not sure shifting from St. Louis to Houston and Detroit really effectively changes many teams travel time. The impact is surely confined entirely to the middle of the U.S. and has no effects on teams on the coasts. Moving to San Jose and Virginia would have been a more distinct shift with real effects.
MrTechCenter
09-04-2015, 14:53
The 5k for the initial district registration also includes your kit don't forget, plus the two events. That's why I didn't touch the initial 5k. I believe a fair way to do it would be 5k initially with a free DCMP as Michigan was intended to be.
Jarad also has valid points, how many tiers are too many?
True, I forgot about that. But isn't most of the stuff in the kit donated anyway?
PayneTrain
09-04-2015, 14:54
I will make a set of more neutral observations. I haven't come to a conclusion one way or another about this change.
I think that FIRST is facing an almost existential decision in the face of its success. The expansion of the FRC championship and moving FTC and FLL out of the Dome are a first step in that process. I expect that FIRST is asking what happens as participation rises and the championship expands. Last year, FIRST already noted that the number of teams qualifying would surpass 600 in short order. They probably believe that more than 600 is simply too large for any one venue. On the other hand, they want teams to have the same probability/opportunity to qualify for a "championship." To accomplish that goal, they decided to split the championship rather than squeeze the qualification criteria. I'm currently agnostic on whether that's the best option but I also understand the importance of maintaining the same incentives for a growing pool of teams. (Interesting work on that economics right now related to growing income equality.)
Not sure if this perspective helps, but maybe we can start a discussion about what should be the goals of FIRST and FRC, and what options are available to meet those. The district/super regional/champs was one, but that tends to narrow the final qualifying pool.
On a side note, I'm not sure shifting from St. Louis to Houston and Detroit really effectively changes many teams travel time. The impact is surely confined entirely to the middle of the U.S. and has no effects on teams on the coasts. Moving to San Jose and Virginia would have been a more distinct shift with real effects.
I am willing to hold another FRC Championship in my culdesac. No guarantees but we can probably fit more teams than Waterloo.
Well, IRI will become the true Championship.
Is this some kind of record for the fastest thread growth on Chief Delphi? Posted at 10:19 a.m. and already 20 pages of comments.
George Nishimura
09-04-2015, 14:59
I wonder if an important question we need to ask ourselves is, "Is FRC a sport?"
Both methods inspire people, and both methods attract different audiences. Which "track" does FRC want to follow?
Here's one "answer", from the announcement post itself:
we are expanding the FIRST Championship by bringing our Sport for the Mind™ to two FIRST Championship host cities.
But isn't most of the stuff in the kit donated anyway?
FIRST does have to purchase some of the required components. I don't think a company like CTRE could afford to donate 2500+ PDP's, VRM's and PCM's.
and has no effects on teams on the coasts.
I think a 200+ mile increase in travel is an effect.
Spokane to Houston: 2,118 miles
Spokane to Detroit: 2,071 miles
Spokane to St. Louis: 1,805 miles
I thought i heard something about cost saving?
I envisioned the death of World Championships as we know it to come by the end of this decade (and Im not sure there is anyone who is remotely aware and active in FRC/FIRST who thinks otherwise.
I saw an ideal endgame would be to take the idea of World Championships and turn it into something like a super-IRI. A weekend in July has a 150 team event with two fields. Take the 16 super regional winners, the 4 HoF Finalists, the top 25-30 points earners over the season from each zone, and the final 10-30 spots that would be determined as some kind of wild card: a mixture of HoF teams that didn't make the points cut, the top rookies in the world, top points earners at every super regional that didn't make the cut (like a most-improved).
It's largely an exhibition, just like World Championships of any high school sport. It should be run by FRC, but you can call the award something like The Director's Cup. You can adjust the game rules to improve play at a high level, you disregard bag time, and you don't pay a registration fee to go.
You get 2 months to prepare for a truly magnificent spectator driven version of FRC. It's the All-Star game, the midsummer classic of robotics, and it's globally televised by Fox Sports 1 or NBC Sports or ESPN. They sponsor the telecast to remove the registration fees. They get two months to go out and interview and shoot b-roll of top competitors for segments. You get two fields so play doesn't have long lulls. You put the competition on a Friday and Saturday in the summer to avoid people losing vacation days or school time. You get to keep FIRST's idea of providing a championship type experience at what I think would better be known as "Zone Championships" and the idea of World Championships carries on in the FRC Grand Prix. People from all over the FRC world can come to watch and learn from the best teams. At the end, you crown the Chairman's Award Winner and the 3 Winner's of the President's Cup.
This. 100 times this. The two things in play here (crowning the ultimate champion, hosting a huge FIRST celebration with the best teams there) do not necissarily have to be the same thing.
For a long time, every single team in FIRST got to have the championship experience every year. Later, every single team got to have it every two years, then every four years. For most of FIRST's history, this was a prominently stated objective of the way championship registration worked: for every student to get to experience an FRC world championship at least once. But more recently, this objective got further and further away from reality, and in the past few years, teams (district regions aside) have basically had to win an event/Chairman's/EI/Rookie All Star to get there. And for the most part, I think teams have been okay with this. It was a gradual progression, not an abrupt shift to the way they are now. And it makes sense for championships to be relatively exclusive -- just getting there is a pretty lofty goal, which teams work incredibly hard towards.
The dual championship model seems to be an attempt to bring things back to the way they were, and make the model where every few years, any team can simply sign up and have the championship experience, sustainable again. And while I think it's great for more students to have this experience, it can't come at the expense of having the championship be a championship, where the best of the best go head to head. Without that, you can't learn if you truly achieved the goals you set at the start of the year.
I would be perfectly okay with, and in fact enthusiastically support, a series of massive events designed to provide the championship scale experience, alongside a FIRST-sanctioned, relatively small (IRI size would be fine), championship event, so that teams still can get the experience of seeing the Michael Jordans, Tom Bradys, and Clayton Kershaw's of FIRST playing to determine championships, and inspiring them to get to the biggest stage in FIRST someday.
s_forbes
09-04-2015, 15:02
I like how I only ever have to read the first post in a thread to know what the consensus on CD is. Saves me quite a bit of time.
I am willing to hold another FRC Championship in my culdesac. No guarantees but we can probably fit more teams than Waterloo.
I'll volunteer my uncles' farm.
Brandon_L
09-04-2015, 15:11
I think three tiers is about as many as people can tolerate, which means District CMP needs to change into a Super Regional, or District CMP needs to qualify fewer teams for the World Championship. At some point, it's okay to have branching tiers of competition so that too many people aren't one and done (Champions League vs. Europa League in European soccer is probably a better comparison than NCAA vs. NIT).
Do you feel that combining MAR, NE, and the soon to be VA district into one mega district with its own DCMP would be the answer to cut out a tier? Maybe top x ranked teams from each current district area move on to a Northeast Mega District? From the perspective of strictly competition, sure it could work, but I'm a fan of how districts are currently set up. It gives some lesser/mediocre teams an obtainable goal (reaching DCMP).
George Nishimura
09-04-2015, 15:11
The following is a transcribed extract (divided in two) from about 5:12 in the video. I think the video does a better job than the post in communicating FIRST's reasoning.
..we don't have all the details yet. We've got this big picture vision of how Championship is going to evolve and sort of where we'll be at which weekend and in which year. We're very excited about it but we got a lot of details that we have to work out across all of our programs...
My reading is that the only thing that FIRST have done is book venues for the four years (2017-2020), which they were forced to do (current St Louis deal expires).
The difficulty was having to book venues that would work in 2020, considering the current model was not sustainable (there is probably not one venue fairly located, big enough and affordable for FIRST in 5 years time based on current growth trends).
So they solved the logistical problem first, and now they have two very large venues, on two separate weekends, which they have to package in to a utilitarian (greatest good for the greatest number) solution. Their emphasis is on "the greatest number" part, with side benefits of reduced average travel costs and probably increased sponsor presence.
... and we know that those details are important. In fact we want to engage members in the FIRST community to help us come up with the best solution and to think about what might be the best approach to some of these things...
This is the most frustrating part: why now, when there is probably very little wiggle room to work with?
Finally, the biggest question for me is where does this put the district system? I thought the plan was to get all districts by 2017, thereby circumventing this problem?
arizonafoxx
09-04-2015, 15:12
If anyone ends up making a T-Shirt protesting this decision please PM me. I will buy a shirt and wear it proudly at Champs.
I envisioned the death of World Championships as we know it to come by the end of this decade (and Im not sure there is anyone who is remotely aware and active in FRC/FIRST who thinks otherwise.
I saw an ideal endgame would be to take the idea of World Championships and turn it into something like a super-IRI. A weekend in July has a 150 team event with two fields. Take the 16 super regional winners, the 4 HoF Finalists, the top 25-30 points earners over the season from each zone, and the final 10-30 spots that would be determined as some kind of wild card: a mixture of HoF teams that didn't make the points cut, the top rookies in the world, top points earners at every super regional that didn't make the cut (like a most-improved).
It's largely an exhibition, just like World Championships of any high school sport. It should be run by FRC, but you can call the award something like The Director's Cup. You can adjust the game rules to improve play at a high level, you disregard bag time, and you don't pay a registration fee to go.
You get 2 months to prepare for a truly magnificent spectator driven version of FRC. It's the All-Star game, the midsummer classic of robotics, and it's globally televised by Fox Sports 1 or NBC Sports or ESPN. They sponsor the telecast to remove the registration fees. They get two months to go out and interview and shoot b-roll of top competitors for segments. You get two fields so play doesn't have long lulls. You put the competition on a Friday and Saturday in the summer to avoid people losing vacation days or school time. You get to keep FIRST's idea of providing a championship type experience at what I think would better be known as "Zone Championships" and the idea of World Championships carries on in the FRC Grand Prix. People from all over the FRC world can come to watch and learn from the best teams. At the end, you crown the Chairman's Award Winner and the 3 Winner's of the President's Cup.
This sounds like a fantastic way to accomplish the goals of both sides. Making it a small event (sub 100 teams total) makes it extraordinarily prestigious. I know a lot of teams (my team included) seem to begin to expect they will make it to champs every year. Having it be a huge deal for anyone to make it to champs would be a lot of fun. Sure you have your 1114's and 254's that always qualify, but you cut down on a lot of teams that land in that middle tier, and it becomes a massive goal to make it to championships.
On top of that, it also suits the popularization of it better with a short event that a major network can broadcast, instead of 2 separate 4 day events.
I would be thrilled to see FIRST take this route instead of the chosen path.
waialua359
09-04-2015, 15:14
As a VEX and FRC programs participating school, I do hope that we are still able to do both as 2014 was very disappointing to having to split our programs apart.
I have just one suggestion Frank.
Is it possible to have a team qualify for both World Championships for winning multiple events?
Just a thought.....
I have just one suggestion Frank.
Is it possible to have a team qualify for both World Championships?
IF, the team earns 2 spots during the season, where we can elect, NOT to give out a wild card, but instead use it to compete at both championships back to back weekends?
Just a thought.....
You will only be able to attend one Championship and which one that will be will be geographically assigned.
Do you feel that combining MAR, NE, and the soon to be VA district into one mega district with its own DCMP would be the answer to cut out a tier? Maybe top x ranked teams from each current district area move on to a Northeast Mega District? From the perspective of strictly competition, sure it could work, but I'm a fan of how districts are currently set up. It gives some lesser/mediocre teams an obtainable goal (reaching DCMP).
Ironically, multiple district championships might be the best answer here. Keep districts+points the same as they are. Play the NE/MAR/VA district championships. Chairman's/EI/RAS/Winning alliances from each qualify for Worlds, plus the top point earners with teams from all three regions mixed together. This would keep the travel costs to a minimum, by not introducing more than one tier which requires the high travel costs of championships.
pwnageNick
09-04-2015, 15:19
IF, the team earns 2 spots during the season, where we can elect, NOT to give out a wild card, but instead use it to compete at both championships back to back weekends?
Just a thought.....
I think that would probably come off a bit selfish.. to deny a team a wild card slot to champs so you can go to both..
Just called FIRST and was on hold a LONG time. Person I finally spoke to:
-Had never been to a single competition, let alone champs.
-Kept telling me this was great because it would be so much less expensive to get to champs for everyone (um...no).
-Had never heard of 254 or 1114, did not even know they were teams that I was referring to.
-Had no idea what VEX was.
-Sounded like they were frazzled from all the calls.
scooty199
09-04-2015, 15:20
This really is a bad way to get to the Districts -> Regional -> Worlds format.
Maybe I'm too much of a College Basketball fan, but I thought of this concept that I believed FIRST to be moving towards.
The Districts are like the conferences and what not.
The Super Regionals are the like the NCAA tournament regions. You have four of them.
A certain number of teams move on to what would be the deciding World Championship.
MattRain
09-04-2015, 15:21
The location choices are lnteresting. not sure it's going to save my team any money. Both Houston and Detriot are out of the question in terms of driving distance from SC. I miss having the championship in my backyard.
Now you know how the west coast feels. We haven't had a good location yet. Houston is still a 17 hour drive from Phoenix.
Just called FIRST and was on hold a LONG time. Person I finally spoke to:
-Had never been to a single competition, let alone champs.
-Kept telling me this was great because it would be so much less expensive to get to champs for everyone (um...no).
-Had never heard of 254 or 1114, did not even know they were teams that I was referring to.
-Had no idea what VEX was.
-Sounded like they were frazzled from all the calls.
Hilarious, yet sadly not surprising.
Bob Steele
09-04-2015, 15:24
This might be a good point to start some constructive discussion.
I'm also a fan of the district->district CMP->super regional->CMP concept. The only true concern I have with it is the amount teams will most likely have to spend in just registration costs for 4 tiers of events assuming they go all the way. If any one of those tiers (or more if FIRST wants to be nice) were free for teams it could work. Perhaps district CMP? 5k/year for the entire district model sounds fair. Meanwhile less populated areas still in regionals would pay the same amount with one less tier, dropping DCMP and just having a single regional with winners moving on to the super regional.
This is a great point... particularly for Districts..... Another level of qualification for District teams after playing in 3 events? and paying as if you had been in 2 regionals... Why not have Super Regionals for non-District teams and use the District CMPs as the "Super Regionals" for the teams in Districts? This would mean that all teams would go through a set of qualifiers to get to CMP. Right now... it is $5000 to enter and $4000 to play at District CMP...just like attending 2 regionals.
For Super Regionals... if a team qualified at a regional to go to Super Reqional they could go for the same cost.... 2 regionals would cost more..of course.
Just called FIRST and was on hold a LONG time. Person I finally spoke to:
-Had never been to a single competition, let alone champs.
-Kept telling me this was great because it would be so much less expensive to get to champs for everyone (um...no).
-Had never heard of 254 or 1114, did not even know they were teams that I was referring to.
-Had no idea what VEX was.
-Sounded like they were frazzled from all the calls.
Sounds perfect.
waialua359
09-04-2015, 15:25
You will only be able to attend one Championship and which one that will be will be geographically assigned.
I understand and read that.
One of the best things about FIRST is giving our students from a very tiny rural community, a chance to compete, collaborate and converse with the many great teams around the world.
Being assigned to 1 of the 2 events, would further limit our chances to do that, much the same way Districts have already prevented programs from competing at those events.
I feel very fortunate to have been able to compete at different areas across the US prior to these specific areas going to Districts.
Connor Mulkey
09-04-2015, 15:26
Is this the part where we elect Jared or Cory the FRC players union president, and then go into a lockout? The NFL, NBA, and MLB can do it. So if FIRST is truly a sport, why can't we?
I have a plan to show FIRST how upset we are: Let's just not go to champs this year. No one show up. You know what? No one just ever go again until we get this issue resolved!! :D
and then go into a lockout?
Employers (the leagues) lockout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockout_(industry)) employees (the players). Employees go on strike (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action).
Navid Shafa
09-04-2015, 15:28
Is this the part where we elect Jared or Cory the FRC players union president, and then go into a lockout? The NFL, NBA, and MLB can do it. So if FIRST is truly a sport, why can't we?
Nominations seconded.
waialua359
09-04-2015, 15:28
I think that would probably come off a bit selfish.. to deny a team a wild card slot to champs so you can go to both..
I see your point.
But I was looking at it from the perspective that Champs would increase 2 fold?
600 to 1200 teams? That's about 1/2 of the current FIRST participation numbers.
AdamHeard
09-04-2015, 15:29
Employers (the leagues) lockout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockout_(industry)) employees (the players). Employees go on strike (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action).
We're not employees, we are customers. We all give FIRST a giant pile of money each year.
Nominations seconded.
All in favor, say "Aye".
Is this the part where we elect Jared or Cory the FRC players union president, and then go into a lockout? The NFL, NBA, and MLB can do it. So if FIRST is truly a sport, why can't we?
ill be the only one on my team striking, the rest may not even know about this till next year... :rolleyes:
I have a plan to show FIRST how upset we are: Let's just not go to champs this year. No one show up. You know what? No one just ever go again until we get this issue resolved!! :D
Better plan: The two finalist alliances on Einstein delete all code from their robots (replacing it with a placeholder delay function). All matches would end in a tie and be replayed until a winner is declared. Since no robots would ever move, there will never be a winner of one match, let alone two different winners of two matches. FIRST will have little choice but to declare co-champion alliances, which is apparently what they want to do in two years anyway. (Please don't let it come to this.)
Brandon_L
09-04-2015, 15:32
We're not employees, we are customers. We all give FIRST a giant pile of money each year.
Roughly 3k teams * 5k entry fee, not including the 6k rookie fee (is that still a thing? not sure) = $15,000,000
15 million per year, and rising
Where does it all go?
Nobody knows
How can we, the FRC community, best fulfill the goals of FIRST and FRC? Having fewer events with the best of the best, or more events where we have a mix of great and mediocre teams?
If we want to have people get excited about FIRST, and have people "tune in" (whether in person at an event, or online, etc.), do we want all the matches to be exciting (best of the best, even if there are fewer total teams) or do we want to have a ton of teams (and thus some not so great matches/"shows")?
Does having two champs, and twice the number of teams, lower the level of competition and excitement? Does that actually detract from the goal of exciting more people? Or does more events (more teams, but a lower level of competition) cause a greater impact and excite more people?
Personally, I feel that having a smaller world champs where the matches are all more exciting, and you can focus more on each team during the event would be more effective and exciting.
cricket66
09-04-2015, 15:34
From: http://www.usfirst.org/aboutus/2017-first-championship-announcement
Maybe it's time for the US to have 2 Presidents and split the country into 2 halves.
This makes as much sense as having 2 half robot championships.
International teams have to decide north or south competition.
Lets cut down on domestic travel and have 4 competitions E, W, N & S. This will reduce school travel costs.
This has not been thought through very well.
JeffersonMartin
09-04-2015, 15:34
We're not employees, we are customers. We all give FIRST a giant pile of money each year.
$15,246,023 to be exact.
pastelpony
09-04-2015, 15:34
Roughly 3k teams * 5k entry fee, not including the 6k rookie fee (is that still a thing? not sure) = $15,000,000
Where does it all go?
Nobody knows
That's not including DCMP/CMP registration fees either.
efoote868
09-04-2015, 15:35
This has not been thought through very well.
Not to play devil's advocate, but you don't know that. We're just not seeing the opposing viewpoint in this thread.
Roughly 3k teams * 5k entry fee, not including the 6k rookie fee (is that still a thing? not sure) = $15,000,000
15 million per year, and rising
Where does it all go?
Nobody knows
http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/uploadedFiles/Who/Annual_Report-Financials/FIRST_FY2014_%20Audited_Financials.pdf
PayneTrain
09-04-2015, 15:36
Better plan: The two finalist alliances on Einstein delete all code from their robots (replacing it with a placeholder delay function). All matches would end in a tie and be replayed until a winner is declared. Since no robots would ever move, there will never be a winner of one match, let alone two different winners of two matches. (Please don't let it come to this.)
dae 2soon http://s1.ibtimes.com/sites/www.ibtimes.com/files/styles/v2_article_large/public/2011/11/03/184658-samsung-galaxy-nexus.jpg?itok=QfMs5Q96
If primary and secondary contacts of teams are organizing, that could be fun. I should talk to the secondary contact of 422. Wait, that's me... I'm in.
Brandon_L
09-04-2015, 15:36
That's not including DCMP/CMP registration fees either.
Or 2nd regionals, and in rare cases 3rd, ect.
Better plan: The two finalist alliances on Einstein delete all code from their robots (replacing it with a placeholder delay function). All matches would end in a tie and be replayed until a winner is declared. Since no robots would ever move, there will never be a winner of one match, let alone two different winners of two matches. FIRST will have little choice but to declare co-champion alliances, which is apparently what they want to do in two years anyway. (Please don't let it come to this.)
Sadly, there would still only be 3 matches. After all of the tie breakers in a match comes the "random" selector so FMS would just arbitrarily pick a winner. Who wants to see how random their random function actually is?
(I am absolutely not advocating for this. I think we, the community, need to find a way to resolve these issues without interfering with the students learning.)
Better plan: The two finalist alliances on Einstein delete all code from their robots (replacing it with a placeholder delay function). All matches would end in a tie and be replayed until a winner is declared. Since no robots would ever move, there will never be a winner of one match, let alone two different winners of two matches. FIRST will have little choice but to declare co-champion alliances, which is apparently what they want to do in two years anyway. (Please don't let it come to this.)Actually, it would be a perfect preview of the new system: two "winning" alliances who never get to interact with each other.
Though I'm not personally as appalled as the thread standard (but I get it), I found myself wondering what this would've actually looked like. With all the talk of who you will and won't be able to play with, here's the last two year's worth of Division Winners and Finalists by which Half-World Championship they would've been at. ...Sort of. It's a rush job off TBA that relies on my geography skills. There are quite a few borderline teams--I gave PNW to Houston and was pretty random about our friends in Missouri-ish areas.
Travis Hoffman
09-04-2015, 15:38
You know that that article has St. Louis as 2nd most dangerous right? We manage to chaperone thousands of kids through that city, and I haven't heard of any violent crime injuring FIRSTers yet (I hope I'm not mistaken).
Atlanta is #6. :rolleyes:
http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/uploadedFiles/Who/Annual_Report-Financials/FIRST_FY2014_%20Audited_Financials.pdf
Expenses
FIRST Robotics Competition ("FRC") 36,203,436
Wow, I'm informed...
Sadly, there would still only be 3 matches. After all of the tie breakers in a match comes the "random" selector so FMS would just arbitrarily pick a winner. Who wants to see how random their random function actually is?
There are no tie breaker rules awarding additional MATCH points during Final MATCHES. If after two (2) MATCHES the ALLIANCES each have a win, a third MATCH will be played. Additional matches will be played if needed.
No tiebreakers this year. In previous years, a match tied after tiebreakers was considered a 'true' tie and replayed.
(I am absolutely not advocating for this. I think we, the community, need to find a way to resolve these issues without interfering with the students learning.)
This. I will be very disappointed if the Einstein matches are anything but the best matches of the FRC season.
Though I'm not personally as appalled as the thread standard (but I get it), I found myself wondering what this would've actually looked like. With all the talk of who you will and won't be able to play with, here's the last two year's worth of Division Winners and Finalists by which Half-World Championship they would've been at. ...Sort of. It's a rush job off TBA that relies on my geography skills. There are quite a few borderline teams--I gave PNW to Houston and was pretty random about our friends in Missouri-ish areas.
It won't be strictly geography. There will be an attempt to balance attendance numbers at both events.
pastelpony
09-04-2015, 15:45
I can honestly see this model taking the same route the Roman Empire did when it was partitioned into two empires; one decent entity split into two for the sake of "ease" with both resulting entities eventually severely declining into nothingness (though Byzantine took much longer to completely dissolve).
pwnageNick
09-04-2015, 15:45
https://i.imgur.com/od6BSvl.png
It won't be strictly geography. There will be an attempt to balance both events.
Where do you see that?
It says an attempt will be made to balance the number of teams at each event. That has nothing to do with competitive balance.
Anupam Goli
09-04-2015, 15:46
https://i.imgur.com/od6BSvl.png
I would watch this.
George Nishimura
09-04-2015, 15:46
International teams have to decide north or south competition.
I think international teams would be assigned geographically as well, or used to balance the numbers.
This has not been thought through very well.
It's almost certainly the opposite. A calculated decision that prioritises the number of teams over the sporting and cultural significance of the event.
Please, no FRC Super Regionals.
Three Championship level events in one month is too many. It's too much of the following:
Adult helper vacation days
registration fees
trip payments by families
general exhaustion
3 Tiers is good:
Districts --> District Champs --> Worlds
Where do you see that?
It says an attempt will be made to balance the number of teams at each event. That has nothing to do with competitive balance.
His post had most teams going Detroit. Obviously, that won't be the case. (Post edited for clarity)
jman4747
09-04-2015, 15:49
Atlanta is #6. :rolleyes:
Hay now... I mean come on? How about that airport though right? #6 is better than #1-2! ;)
3 Tiers is good:
Districts --> District Champs --> Worlds
My thoughts as well. As more areas move to the district system, many of the issues this change is trying to address will likely be less of a problem.
His post had most teams going Detroit. Obviously, that won't be the case.
That post shows the winners and finalists of each division, and what region they would likely be assigned, had there been 2 venues in 2014 and 2013. There may well not be an even distribution of the winning teams from last year at the two venues -- but there would be an even distribution across the entirety of both championship events.
What the post shows, is that the strongest teams last year would have all been at Detroit, and thus the Detroit event would have been a stronger event than the Houston event.
His post had most teams going Detroit. Obviously, that won't be the case. (Post edited for clarity)
But you can only balance it with fringe cases. You can't split half the Michigan teams between Houston and Detroit. You'd have to pick teams that are on the border of right between the two locations. You are going to see a competitive difference between the two events, at least until more locales get districts to help them improve that way.
Andrew Lawrence
09-04-2015, 15:55
While we're talking venues, the new Levi's Stadium in Santa Clara is awefuly nice...
smistthegreat
09-04-2015, 15:56
But you can only balance it with fringe cases. You can't split half the Michigan teams between Houston and Detroit. You'd have to pick teams that are on the border of right between the two locations. You are going to see a competitive difference between the two events, at least until more locales get districts to help them improve that way.
I, for one, welcome our new Ontario CMP "North" overlords.
Thad House
09-04-2015, 15:57
That post shows the winners and finalists of each division, and what region they would likely be assigned, had there been 2 venues in 2014 and 2013. There may well not be an even distribution of the winning teams from last year at the two venues -- but there would be an even distribution across the entirety of both championship events.
What the post shows, is that the strongest teams last year would have all been at Detroit, and thus the Detroit event would have been a stronger event than the Houston event.
And I could tell you that would basically always be the case. Detroit would get Ontario and Michigan, plus many strong teams from NE and MAR, and many more.
Houston would get California and Texas as their strong teams, plus a good amount of teams from the south, and most likely the PNW.
Sorry if this hurts anyone, but Ontario and Michigan are stronger then California and Texas, at least in the tier right below the elite. Maybe when California and Texas go to districts this will change, because they do bring up the middle, but for now Detroit would probably have greater depth.
While we're talking venues, the new Levi's Stadium in Santa Clara is awefuly nice...
The roof it has is so nice you can't even see it, hear it, feel it or even be protected from the weather by it...
From the perspective of a mentor for a team that has attended Champs once in our seven year history( back when I was a student):
Yes, the FRC World champs are a wonderfully inspiring thing for teams who attend - It is incredible to be able to play with 2056 in one match and try to stop 67's full court shooter in the next. Yes, it would be wonderful if more teams could attend, and yes, it is terribly expensive for teams on the coasts to travel to champs as-is.
However, splitting Champs into two drives FRC away from it's 'varsity sport for the mind' model and risks losing much of what drives at least my team.
My team's students are - and always have been- driven to be the very best.
Teenagers are competitive people. They don't want just want to play- they want to win. The drive to win is what pushes my team and my students to keep learning and improving, year after year after year.We find the best - teams like 254 or 1114 - and try as hard as we can to emulate them.
That's something you don't see in Science Olympiad or Debate team or any other "academic sport". It's unique to FIRST.
The reason that finals in St. Louis have the energy that they do is that, after all our weeks of work, we're finally going to see who the best of the best are.
Splitting champs will probably not impact anything quantifiable. The scores at the top across events might be similar. To a volunteer that visits Houston and Detroit, the events might even seem the same.
However, the opportunity to find out who's robot really is the best in the world and recognize them as champions will be gone and will take one of the most important intangibles that drives teams to succeed with it.
I don't speak for my team this just my opinion. Having Muscular Dystrophy and not being able to play sports, Frc gave me a way to compete, the whole sport for the mind thing. When I got go to atlanta as the driver in 2010 competing (well playing)along side the best of best was such a rush. But when I watched the finals (still can't believe 469 lost) That Inspired me to help my team build the best robots they can. Prior to 2011 if we didn't qualify at 1 regional we would get on the waitlist for champs. In 2011 my first year as a mentor we went to 2 regionals for the first time and won 10,000 lakes with 525 and 3642 at championships we got picked for the first time ever but got beat in the quarterfinals. The fact that to go championships we had to earn our way in gave the team drive, 2010 was the last time we didn't make eliminations.
The ideals that are held by myself and by many of the longtime FRC mentors and volunteers whom I consider friends and colleagues are bigger than FIRST, and we will find (or make) another vehicle for them if we are forced to.
My thoughts exactly, Jared, thank you for putting them so eloquently. I've been a FIRST fanatic (both as student and mentor) for 7 years now, and I suddenly have no interest in returning for the 2017 season.
I suspect that the full, complete extent of this story has yet to be revealed. ;)
-dave
.
:rolleyes:
Navid Shafa
09-04-2015, 16:04
I just got off the phone from lodging my first formal complaint. I was recommended to send an email as well, I will be doing so shortly as I wait for FedEx to come pick up our crate...
But you can only balance it with fringe cases. You can't split half the Michigan teams between Houston and Detroit. You'd have to pick teams that are on the border of right between the two locations. You are going to see a competitive difference between the two events, at least until more locales get districts to help them improve that way.
The events may not be equally competitive, but at least teams will have an equal shot at winning a half-championship numbers-wise!
To balance event numbers, FIRST may have to send teams to the Championship that's further away from them. (Houston is actually a few hundred miles farther than Detroit from St. Louis, but I suspect that due to the large concentration of teams in the Midwest and Northeast, Missouri teams will be sent to Houston to avoid overloading the Detroit Championship.) So much for reducing travel costs.
Eugene Fang
09-04-2015, 16:05
The roof it has is so nice you can't even see it, hear it, feel it or even be protected from the weather by it...
No worries. It won't rain in California.
It won't be strictly geography. There will be an attempt to balance both events.By attendance, not by strength. Unless HQ intends to put FiM, Ontario, NE FIRST and/or MAR in Houston, this list doesn't change much. I put the Capitol Region and Illinois in Detroit (Missouri in Houston), but that would only move a handful.
EDIT: Yes, what everyone else said. Jeez, you guys are moving quickly. Also, that's "her post" [my post].
Yipyapper
09-04-2015, 16:08
Man, at least FIRST had the courtesy of waiting until I was done as a member of a team to ruin everything.
efoote868
09-04-2015, 16:11
Man, at least FIRST had the courtesy of waiting until I was done as a member of a team to ruin everything.
We know there are lots of questions for us to answer. We will be working hard on many details in the months to come, and as that process takes place, we’ll share additional information, so please stay tuned.
The sky is not falling. The details are not settled. We don't have all the facts. Take a deep breath, it'll be OK.
The sky is not falling. The details are not settled. We don't have all the facts. Take a deep breath, it'll be OK.
One interpretation of that second quote is that "the details" amount to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
I suspect that the full, complete extent of this story has yet to be revealed. ;)
-dave
.
:rolleyes:Are you talking about the "what", the "why", the "how", or all of the above?
The sky is not falling. The details are not settle. We don't have all the facts. Take a deep breathe, it'll be OK.Considering they've announced specific venues and dates, I'd say all the details people are upset about are probably settled. I'm in full agreement with the other statements, depending on what your definition of "OK" is. <Glances up at the sky.>
Also, Aye to that Jared/Cory for union president motion.
efoote868
09-04-2015, 16:15
One interpretation of that second quote is that "the details" amount to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
We know that FIRST through Frank has been very receptive to feedback, so I'm betting they will figure out how to incorporate this thread and positive ideas on how to make it better.
We know that FIRST through Frank has been very receptive to feedback, so I'm betting they will figure out how to incorporate this thread and positive ideas on how to make it better.
There isnt any middle room between both sides here. Everyone on here has been vastly against 2 separate championships. FIRST has already gotten venues and dates, which means these events are in stone and going to happen. There is no incorporation.
JohnSchneider
09-04-2015, 16:18
We know that FIRST through Frank has been very receptive to feedback, so I'm betting they will figure out how to incorporate this thread and positive ideas on how to make it better.
Well obviously they haven't.
There isnt any middle room between both sides here. Everyone on here has been vastly against 2 separate championships. FIRST has already gotten venues and dates, which means these events are in stone and going to happen. There is no incorporation.
When you refuse to look for solutions, all you will find are problems.
We know that FIRST through Frank has been very receptive to feedback, so I'm betting they will figure out how to incorporate this thread and positive ideas on how to make it better.
The contracts have already been signed. If FIRST wanted to hear feedback, it would have been more helpful to have asked before the final decision was made.
efoote868
09-04-2015, 16:21
There isnt any middle room between both sides here. Everyone on here has been vastly against 2 separate championships. FIRST gas already gotten venues and dates, which means these events are in stone and going to happen. There is no incorporation.
The distribution of teams across events hasn't been announced. What I've read on this thread is that we're afraid of the Championship competition becoming less competitive through splitting of powerhouse teams.
What if it doesn't have to be that way?
What if the 2nd/3rd pick on each winning alliance, the wait-listed qualifiers and other teams are invited to one championship, and the alliance captains and 1st picks are invited to the other championship?
That seems to maintain the competitiveness while simultaneously including more teams.
When you refuse to look for solutions, all you will find are problems.
Well when FIRST gives up before trying...
The distribution of teams across events hasn't been announced. What I've read on this thread is that we're afraid of the Championship competition becoming less competitive through splitting of powerhouse teams.
What if it doesn't have to be that way?
What if the 3rd pick on each alliance, the wait-listed qualifiers and other teams are invited to one championship, and the alliance captains and 1st picks are invited to the other championship?
That seems to maintain the competitiveness while simultaneously including more teams.
"One of the important things about FIRST and maybe what separates us from other sports is that we're an inclusive organization we're about not about picking a winner at the expense of others but celebrating everybody's accomplishments and success."
I suppose you can dream that it will end up that way, but the quote from Don Bossi suggests otherwise...
The distribution of teams across events hasn't been announced. What I've read on this thread is that we're afraid of the Championship competition becoming less competitive through splitting of powerhouse teams.
What if it doesn't have to be that way?
What if the 2nd/3rd pick on each winning alliance, the wait-listed qualifiers and other teams are invited to one championship, and the alliance captains and 1st picks are invited to the other championship?
That seems to maintain the competitiveness while simultaneously including more teams.
Yeah, all the starters from the AFC/NFC champion teams go to SuperBowl A; whereas, all the benchwarmers from both teams goes to SuperBowl B. But the outcomes of both will decide who's the best.
What if it doesn't have to be that way?
What if the 3rd pick on each alliance, the wait-listed qualifiers and other teams are invited to one championship, and the alliance captains and 1st picks are invited to the other championship?
That seems to maintain the competitiveness while simultaneously including more teams.
FIRST has already made it clear that teams will be assigned based on geography:
Based on geographic location, teams from all four programs will be assigned to attend one of the events.
Each Championship will serve a still-to-be-defined geographic region in an effort to minimize travel distance and travel cost, while balancing team attendance at both events.
This is probably preferable over sending the 3rd picks from Michigan to the Houston Champtionship.
efoote868
09-04-2015, 16:26
Yeah, all the starters from the AFC/NFC champion teams go to SuperBowl A; whereas, all the benchwarmers from both teams goes to SuperBowl B. But the outcomes of both will decide who's the best.
Think NCAA vs. NIT
audietron
09-04-2015, 16:26
This year's game was the start of something different and in many peoples opinion, "aweful". I think the system of average qualification points is simply taking away from the excitement and competition. This is another level of everyone is a winner. Essentially this is saturating the competition with large amounts of qualifying teams and making it less inspiring and motivating to go to worlds. Several people have pointed out that teams that have been to worlds through winning an award or winning a regional makes them work that much harder next year to do better. After seeing the Poofs at worlds in 2013, it became a passion to go to worlds again and be able to make it farther yet. With more ability to make it to Einstein or simply get picked at worlds, just reduces the inspiration. Not being able to see half of the qualified teams that you may never see in person are now not around to be inspiring.
For some teams this is OK but for what seems to be the majority this is unacceptable.
ASmith1675
09-04-2015, 16:28
The distribution of teams across events hasn't been announced. What I've read on this thread is that we're afraid of the Championship competition becoming less competitive through splitting of powerhouse teams.
What if it doesn't have to be that way?
What if the 2nd/3rd pick on each winning alliance, the wait-listed qualifiers and other teams are invited to one championship, and the alliance captains and 1st picks are invited to the other championship?
That seems to maintain the competitiveness while simultaneously including more teams.
I would fear this as much or more than the alternative. This ends up separating teams that are most likely to be inspired, from those most likely be inspiring.
Not having a true champion is a problem, but not the biggest. I don't think teams would be nearly as excited about attending the "2nd level" competition. They would also not have nearly the opportunity to learn from the powerhouses (both outreach and engineering) of the world.
Think NCAA vs. NIT
Yeah, but the NCAA doesnt claim the NIT winner to be the best.
And also look at how many teams decline non-NCAA invites.
The distribution of teams across events hasn't been announced. What I've read on this thread is that we're afraid of the Championship competition becoming less competitive through splitting of powerhouse teams.
What if it doesn't have to be that way?
What if the 2nd/3rd pick on each winning alliance, the wait-listed qualifiers and other teams are invited to one championship, and the alliance captains and 1st picks are invited to the other championship?
That seems to maintain the competitiveness while simultaneously including more teams.
That only solves ½ the issue most people on here are discussing. What you propose effectively creates the NCAA tournament and the NIT tournament. Those going to the NCAA-FRC tournament will be greatly inspired and excited about what they see. Those going to the NIT-FRC tournament will almost certainly be less-excited, and they won't get the full "championship experience" because they won't get to see the best of the best teams compete.
The problems most of us seem to be having with this announcement are:
a) FIRST didn't ask teams what they feel may be the best course of action and instead effectively divided the community into North/South
b) Championships is no longer championships, which invokes the questions like "who really wins?" "Do we have enough volunteers?" "Is Championships really Championships anymore?" and dozens more
c) The general direction FIRST seems to now be heading is not what most of us envisioned FIRST should be heading in. FIRST is not always incredibly open with what their goals are and what their methods of achieving their goals are, and that has become a frustration for many over the past years.
(These are my opinions and may not directly reflect the thoughts of all others on this thread, but I tried my best to summarize.)
efoote868
09-04-2015, 16:29
FIRST has already made it clear that teams will be assigned based on geography:
Right, but assigning all 1st place teams to the premier event will not get to 400 teams, so the supplemental teams can be assigned based on geography.
Point is that details are not set in stone, and I trust Frank to do right by us.
Alex2614
09-04-2015, 16:29
This year's game was the start of something different and in many peoples opinion, "aweful". I think the system of average qualification points is simply taking away from the excitement and competition. This is another level of everyone is a winner. Essentially this is saturating the competition with large amounts of qualifying teams and making it less inspiring and motivating to go to worlds. Several people have pointed out that teams that have been to worlds through winning an award or winning a regional makes them work that much harder next year to do better. After seeing the Poofs at worlds in 2013, it became a passion to go to worlds again and be able to make it farther yet. With more ability to make it to Einstein or simply get picked at worlds, just reduces the inspiration. Not being able to see half of the qualified teams that you may never see in person are now not around to be inspiring.
For some teams this is OK but for what seems to be the majority this is unacceptable.
I've often wondered over the years if the current competition and championship model can be sustained. Most other high school sports don't really have such a championship model.
My solution: Everyone is in districts. Restrict access to champs to the "traditional" 6 teams (maybe even top 10 or 15). Build up district/region championships as a big important "championship" event. Maybe even expand the districts to beyond the geographic extent that they have now. Have a 200-300 team world championship. Move it to Atlanta or Indianapolis. Problem solved.
Rangel(kf7fdb)
09-04-2015, 16:33
Since the venues are already booked, what if we had FRC in one venue and FLL/FTC in the other. As I understand, FLL and FTC already don't have enough teams at champs. I know here in Arizona, we are only able to send a team to championships bi yearly for FLL(Not sure if this has changed). If FTC and FLL had their own venue, they could have more teams that go to their championship event so that it isn't so much of a problem. FLL and FTC have more representation and FRC keeps its world championships. What does everyone else think about this?
efoote868
09-04-2015, 16:35
they won't get the full "championship experience" because they won't get to see the best of the best teams compete.
Nothing prevents teams or individuals from showing up to the championship event as spectators.
edit: I hope you all realize I mean FIRST rules - championship is free and open to the public.
jman4747
09-04-2015, 16:36
Since the venues are already booked, what if we had FRC in one venue and FLL/FTC in the other. As I understand, FLL and FTC already don't have enough teams at champs. I know here in Arizona, we are only able to send a team to championships bi yearly(Not sure if this has changed). If FTC and FLL had their own venue, they could have more teams that go to their championship event so that it isn't so much of a problem. FLL and FTC have more representation and FRC keeps its world championships. What does everyone else think about this?
This I feel would be better to an extent. I think it should be combined with having districts everywhere as well.
Matt_Boehm_329
09-04-2015, 16:38
Nothing prevents teams or individuals from showing up to the championship event as spectators.
Except money, vacation time, and convincing a school district to allow a team to go to just watch
connor.worley
09-04-2015, 16:38
Nothing prevents teams or individuals from showing up to the championship event as spectators.
Except, you know, cost.
FIRST has already made it clear that teams will be assigned based on geography:
This is probably preferable over sending the 3rd picks from Michigan to the Houston Champtionship.
Now I am waiting to see how the 2017 Championship assignments will work in our favor monetarily. Will the trailer get dragged to Houston (1939 miles) or Detroit (1963 miles) vs. St. Louis (1626 miles)? Already counting the money Tators will save with this change...
Seems like a coin flip is in our future...
While we're talking venues, the new Levi's Stadium in Santa Clara is awefuly nice...
Do I get a free pair of pants?
"We are excited about the prospect of two Championship events, but understand it comes with its share of challenges and concerns from our Community. We value your feedback, and it will be helpful to us as we delve into the planning process in the coming months and years. Stay tuned for updates, and please continue to share your constructive thoughts with us as we move forward. Thank you!"
FIRST just posted this as a comment to the video on their FaceBook page...
Nothing prevents teams or individuals from showing up to the championship event as spectators.
Totally in agreement there in respect to the idea. The event is free and open to anyone to attend.
Sadly, for most teams getting to the venue is expensive, especially those coming from outside the US, or even the East/West Coasts. I don't doubt that some teams currently do attend champs even though they don't qualify, but I highly doubt that those paying to travel to the "weak" champs event will then turn around and travel back out to the "strong" champs event.
It's a great idea, and in theory it works well, but in reality there is a cost to going to championships, even if you aren't competing.*
*unless you live in St. Louis, or the immediately surrounding area
Landonh12
09-04-2015, 16:40
Since the venues are already booked, what if we had FRC in one venue and FLL/FTC in the other. As I understand, FLL and FTC already don't have enough teams at champs. I know here in Arizona, we are only able to send a team to championships bi yearly for FLL(Not sure if this has changed). If FTC and FLL had their own venue, they could have more teams that go to their championship event so that it isn't so much of a problem. FLL and FTC have more representation and FRC keeps its world championships. What does everyone else think about this?
This is what I was imagining when I first heard about this. I assumed that since FIRST was spreading to more venues in St. Louis (Union Station), this was a way to seperate FRC/FTC/FLL Championships.
No worries. It won't rain in California.
I think we need it though
Nothing prevents teams or individuals from showing up to the championship event as spectators.
I have traveled to championships both as a participant (in 2011) and as a spectator (in 2014). Personally, I found the experience to be quite different and I am very happy to be coming as a participant again this year.
Matt_Boehm_329
09-04-2015, 16:44
I do have a question about how this will effect international teams. It would seem easier to sell attending THE World Championship than attending A Championship event to sponsors and administrators.
Nate Laverdure
09-04-2015, 16:45
Nothing prevents teams or individuals from showing up to the championship event as spectators.
edit: I hope you all realize I mean FIRST rules - championship is free and open to the public.
As an aside: CMP isn't all that welcoming to the uninitiated spectator. Per a recent email blast, all attendees at the 2015 Championship (students, mentors, spectators, etc.) will be required to register in order to gain access to "activities."
Attendee Registration: FIRST is requiring that all Championship attendees (students, mentors, spectators, etc.) register for the Championship event. Attendee registration grants participants access to activities and event transportation. We encourage you to register your team members in advance to save time when you arrive on-site at the Championship. You can complete attendee registration here: http://registration.experientevent.com/showrob152/DefaultTeams.aspx
Alex2614
09-04-2015, 16:46
Every region gets districts... place some flex regionals in low population areas If needed. Progress teams to Champs from district championships. Low level teams get the "champ experience" at the district champs. High level teams still get to compete for a world title. Everyone wins.
Yes! I don't understand why that is so hard for many to understand! Why can't we build up our current regionals/region championships as a true championship experience instead of inviting everyone to huge world events? I would be perfectly happy if my team was in districts and we only advanced as far as our district/region championship, especially if it was built up as a huge "experience" event.
I do have a question about how this will effect international teams. It would seem easier to sell attending THE World Championship than attending A Championship event to sponsors and administrators.
This concern is certainly not limited to international teams.
Kevin Sevcik
09-04-2015, 16:49
Hilarious, yet sadly not surprising.Seriously? Have we actually stooped to harrassing some poor phone staffers at HQ and laughing about it? You guys do realize that FIRST has more programs than just FRC, right? And that not everyone at HQ is an ex-FIRSTer? I realize that in your bubble, 254 and 1114 are world famous and everyone should know them, but that's simply not true. I guarantee you I can find veteran FRC teams that have never heard of either of those teams. You know why? Cause they've never been to Champs. EDIT: As noted by JVN, it's unfair of me to imply Cory et. al. are assuming everyone should know about 254 and 1114. I retract that implication.
Okay, I haven't had time to read every post in this thread, because I work and I can't spend all afternoon keeping track of this, so forgive me if I'm not up to the minute on the debate. You can all mark me down as in favor of the change. Here's some comments:
Can we please try to be adults about this? Calling HQ enmasse and harrassing staffers there seems childish. Especially on Thursday of district champs. Especially when people are trying to work out actual problems for getting to the 2015 Champs. HQ isn't going to change this policy over a single day of CD exploding. You may as well settle in for a long fight if you want to fight this. Meanwhile, stop causing problems for normal teams.
No one is suggesting giving out awards in the KoP or trophies for participating in Champs. Suggesting FRC is moving to that is childish, stop. If you really think having two best in the world alliances instead of one is equivalent to participation trophies, I invite you to congratulate the Champs Finalists on their participation trophies.
Really, complaining about two world champions not being champions is unpersuasive to me in general. MLB has the NL and AL Championships and then proceeds to a World Series that only involves US teams + the occasional Canadian team. Not-actually-world-championships are a time honored tradition in sports. If you think this will confuse the general public, you may need to get out more.
It's laughable to declare that Champs was already deciding the top 3 teams in the world currently anyways, due to divisions. Einstein typically doesn't even have the top 4 alliances on it thanks to some divisions being packed.
We already have multiple EI winners at Champs. I'm finding it difficult to believe that WFA winners and Chairman's winners are going to feel cheated because someone else is recognized for extreme excellence in the same year. Petulantly whining that now you're not the absolute best at spreading the message seems out of character.
Champs is already pretty darned elite. About 33% of teams at Lone Star have EVER been to Champs before this year. I suspect this is fairly representative. You want to complain about not seeing all your favorite inspiring teams at Houston Champs? What about the 66% of FRC teams that haven't EVER seen these teams?
OTOH, Champs is already watered down. Waitlist teams, 2nd picks. 2nd pick wildcards. Are we really pretending that Champs is the absolute best of the best? Super Regionals may have gotten it closer, but you'd still have 2nd picks riding tailcoats in.
Really though, it all comes down to the teams for me. I see a ton of people in here declaring how inspiring Champs is, how great it is to see all these elite teams. And 66% of Lone Star teams have ever had that experience. I suspect Frank and those behind this decision might be a little more concerned about inspiring that 66% than the top 5% of teams splitting hairs over who's the #1 all-time greatest ever in the world this year.
Steven Smith
09-04-2015, 16:51
This whole discussion and the problems it raises does put in perspective all my concerns with how Texas is going to be ready for the district model by 2017.
I know it is pure fantasy, but OK FIRST... we call your bluff. We'll put in the time to be ready for districts by 2017 like you asked... use the Houston venue for Texas state champs, and we can all go to worlds in Detroit ;) Deal?
Mike Martus
09-04-2015, 16:52
All I can think of is WOW! I never expected this.
I am waiting for someone to create a Yes or No poll (unless I missed it)?
Since the venues are already booked, what if we had FRC in one venue and FLL/FTC in the other. As I understand, FLL and FTC already don't have enough teams at champs. I know here in Arizona, we are only able to send a team to championships bi yearly for FLL(Not sure if this has changed). If FTC and FLL had their own venue, they could have more teams that go to their championship event so that it isn't so much of a problem. FLL and FTC have more representation and FRC keeps its world championships. What does everyone else think about this?I don't mind it, but realize that FIRST probably would've had to plan for this contingency in the negotiations. Getting the Worlds bid is a significant competition for cities (remember when STL won), and it's likely that FIRST's negotiations included verbiage that would make this difficult (even if they didn't mention FRC directly, which I'd imagine they did). This isn't a shot at FLL or FTC, I just wouldn't count on them being interchangeable.
MechEng83
09-04-2015, 16:54
Just called FIRST and was on hold a LONG time. Person I finally spoke to:
-Had never been to a single competition, let alone champs.
-Kept telling me this was great because it would be so much less expensive to get to champs for everyone (um...no).
-Had never heard of 254 or 1114, did not even know they were teams that I was referring to.
-Had no idea what VEX was.
-Sounded like they were frazzled from all the calls.
I don't have time to read through the 100 posts since this went up, but I'd give FIRST a pass on this one. They employ some local folks who aren't necessarily robot fanatics to answer calls and take care of administrative duties. These aren't decision makers or people who have the means to attend events around the world.
216Robochick288
09-04-2015, 16:54
Since the venues are already booked, what if we had FRC in one venue and FLL/FTC in the other. As I understand, FLL and FTC already don't have enough teams at champs. I know here in Arizona, we are only able to send a team to championships bi yearly for FLL(Not sure if this has changed). If FTC and FLL had their own venue, they could have more teams that go to their championship event so that it isn't so much of a problem. FLL and FTC have more representation and FRC keeps its world championships. What does everyone else think about this?
On paper I like this Idea, but just like having 2 championship competitions it has issues. I know several teams that have FLL, FTC, and FRC teams going to worlds. If you split the parties, suddenly the teams have to deal with the overlapping mentors. It could end up being a real pain for teams, maybe even going down to telling highschoolers that they cant go due to lack of chaperones because you dont want to crush the excitement of LL kids that got to go to one location while you were assigned to the other, or crushing some poor LL kid's excitement saying "Sorry FRC is a bigger investment".
FIRST has certainly found themselves in a weird situation. I certainly hope that more things get fleshed out. I am feeling skeptical of the idea, and Im saddened by the saturation of "Everyone is a winner" in competitions as of late. I hope we arent traveling down that path. While yes, the competition is about inspiring, inspiring others isn't what most highschool students are in the program for.
FIRST, I love you dearly. You are the reason that I am alive right now. I know its hard to run such a giant program, but please hear out our concerns. I was skeptical about "woodie math" back with rankings in Breakaway, I dont like the removal of the win/loss, but I dont feel like splitting our family into areas is harsh.
It hurts bad enough in Michigan when I cant see teams from other states or countries (I was lucky enough my team traveled to Canada anyhow), but not being able to see half the competitive field- as well as my friends from there- hurts. I have worked with several teams via Skype, and I look forward to seeing them all at worlds... if they dont get put into another competition. I feel like this change will limit the amount of collaboration there will be with teams that are far away.
I also hate to boast about the state, because there are lots of other places that pump out good teams, but Michigan is crazy as far as team skill goes. It would be a right shame to see teams from Michigan, Canada, MAR and whatnot seperated from Teams over in Cali and Texas. You cant ignore the fact that you are separating some of the most insane competition we have ever seen.
Ill give you the benifit of the doubt. I need more information until I am willing to pass my ultimate judgement on this, but as someone whos only been around since 2009 (I suddenly realise this is longer ago than I was thinking it was) I am NOT a fan of what is on the table right now. I will continue to support FIRST through changing times. I know that FIRST is a huge competition and is paving the way for competitions like it in the future. There has to be a first time for everything, and you cant expect everything to be perfect, but I feel like there may be better options than what have been put out.
Im curious to see if we can get FIRST to explain its reasons behind 2 World competitions as apposed to super-regionals or anything else like that.
Anupam Goli
09-04-2015, 16:55
Really though, it all comes down to the teams for me. I see a ton of people in here declaring how inspiring Champs is, how great it is to see all these elite teams. And 66% of Lone Star teams have ever had that experience. I suspect Frank and those behind this decision might be a little more concerned about inspiring that 66% than the top 5% of teams splitting hairs over who's the #1 all-time greatest ever in the world this year.
Excuse me sir, you've seemed to dropped this microphone of yours. Do you want it back? ;)
I think everyone's frustration is really at how we were all somewhat blindsided by this announcement. We knew that championships was evolving, but a change from 600 teams to "2 championships, multiple cities, region locked" is just a large step. There was no announcement of potential changes, no feedback or ideas bounced from the community. Had there even been a rumor of 2 championship events earlier, I'm sure we wouldn't be this upset at the moment. It reminds me of the backlash against microsoft when the Xbox One was first announced...
Electronica1
09-04-2015, 16:57
Any ideas of why they chose now to announce this? The timing seems a tad bit odd.
Seriously? Have we actually stooped to harrassing some poor phone staffers at HQ and laughing about it? You guys do realize that FIRST has more programs than just FRC, right? And that not everyone at HQ is an ex-FIRSTer? I realize that in your bubble, 254 and 1114 are world famous and everyone should know them, but that's simply not true. I guarantee you I can find veteran FRC teams that have never heard of either of those teams. You know why? Cause they've never been to Champs.
Okay, I haven't had time to read every post in this thread, because I work and I can't spend all afternoon keeping track of this, so forgive me if I'm not up to the minute on the debate. You can all mark me down as in favor of the change. Here's some comments:
Can we please try to be adults about this? Calling HQ enmasse and harrassing staffers there seems childish. Especially on Thursday of district champs. Especially when people are trying to work out actual problems for getting to the 2015 Champs. HQ isn't going to change this policy over a single day of CD exploding. You may as well settle in for a long fight if you want to fight this. Meanwhile, stop causing problems for normal teams.
No one is suggesting giving out awards in the KoP or trophies for participating in Champs. Suggesting FRC is moving to that is childish, stop. If you really think having two best in the world alliances instead of one is equivalent to participation trophies, I invite you to congratulate the Champs Finalists on their participation trophies.
Really, complaining about two world champions not being champions is unpersuasive to me in general. MLB has the NL and AL Championships and then proceeds to a World Series that only involves US teams + the occasional Canadian team. Not-actually-world-championships are a time honored tradition in sports. If you think this will confuse the general public, you may need to get out more.
It's laughable to declare that Champs was already deciding the top 3 teams in the world currently anyways, due to divisions. Einstein typically doesn't even have the top 4 alliances on it thanks to some divisions being packed.
We already have multiple EI winners at Champs. I'm finding it difficult to believe that WFA winners and Chairman's winners are going to feel cheated because someone else is recognized for extreme excellence in the same year. Petulantly whining that now you're not the absolute best at spreading the message seems out of character.
Champs is already pretty darned elite. About 33% of teams at Lone Star have EVER been to Champs before this year. I suspect this is fairly representative. You want to complain about not seeing all your favorite inspiring teams at Houston Champs? What about the 66% of FRC teams that haven't EVER seen these teams?
OTOH, Champs is already watered down. Waitlist teams, 2nd picks. 2nd pick wildcards. Are we really pretending that Champs is the absolute best of the best? Super Regionals may have gotten it closer, but you'd still have 2nd picks riding tailcoats in.
Really though, it all comes down to the teams for me. I see a ton of people in here declaring how inspiring Champs is, how great it is to see all these elite teams. And 66% of Lone Star teams have ever had that experience. I suspect Frank and those behind this decision might be a little more concerned about inspiring that 66% than the top 5% of teams splitting hairs over who's the #1 all-time greatest ever in the world this year.
It appears that lobbying for change, publicly expressing your opinion, and talking with others about change makes you a child. In fact, just go along with whatever happens, because there's no point in trying to change anything -- let it all happen as it is.
With all the hate against having 2 Championships, I wonder if FIRST will actually consider taking this back.
In my opinion, the answer should be this: Remove regional competitions, transfer everyone over to the District system. This way we could have district championship events (set up to be smaller versions of the current cmp) with the top teams still earning a spot at the World Championship. This would make the champs experience far more obtainable for a lot more teams without removing the prestige of the World championship top tier stage.
Ian Curtis
09-04-2015, 16:57
Really though, it all comes down to the teams for me. I see a ton of people in here declaring how inspiring Champs is, how great it is to see all these elite teams. And 66% of Lone Star teams have ever had that experience. I suspect Frank and those behind this decision might be a little more concerned about inspiring that 66% than the top 5% of teams splitting hairs over who's the #1 all-time greatest ever in the world this year.
The other thing we ought to remember is that attending the Championship is insanely expensive. Even if FIRST made registration free, it would be insanely expensive and many teams would never be able to raise that kind of money to spend on airplane tickets and hotels, when they could better spend that money running a sustainable competitive robotics team. We can serve this 66% at a significantly lower cost with District Championships or their equivalent. You can get 90% of the inspiration for 20% of the cost.
We look forward to this new dual championship framework.
I will work with COPUS and see what they think us sponsoring a team.
2015 Demo Robot 4K (Middle School - 7th grade)
2016 Demo Robot 4K (Middle School - 8th grade)
2017 Houston - Rookie Year
2018 Houston - 18K Budget
2019 Houston - 14K Budget
2020 Houston - 10K Budget
Cheers,
Xi Taqua Robato.
Kevin Sevcik
09-04-2015, 17:01
Right, but assigning all 1st place teams to the premier event will not get to 400 teams, so the supplemental teams can be assigned based on geography.
Point is that details are not set in stone, and I trust Frank to do right by us.No. No, no, no, no. First, congrats on disincentivizing 1st seeds picking 2nd seeds. 2nd seed sure would think twice about accepting if winning meant they'd only go to the Loser's Championship. Second, yes, you really would be creating a Loser's Championship. Your whole purpose is to create a "real" Champs with all the "good" teams, and, well, that other Champs with all those other teams. Two geographically segregated Champs may or may not be a good idea, but I'm pretty sure a "premier" Champs and "that other" Champs is a terrible one for the health of the community.
Dunngeon
09-04-2015, 17:01
I'd like to bring up two points,
The first,
Having more tiers of events isn't a good solution, in my opnion it's going to
Add Cost
Relegate poorer teams to lower tiers of competition, see 2550 (forced to decline DCMP in 2014, and likely worlds this year, despite being in the top 50 single event OPR this year)
More travel time
More School missed (We want FRC students in college right?)
Likely more mentor/student/volunteer burnout
I know personally, our team would fold if another level was added, and we have a larger budget than a lot of teams
The second is,
As a graduating senior, I'm starting to look towards my future involvement with FRC. After the 2013 and 2014 games, I was pretty excited to be able to mentor in the future. 2015 has been a letdown year compared to the previous, but it honestly hasn't been as bad as I was expecting. In fact, I've enjoyed it quite a bit more than I thought I would. I was excited to finally be able to give back to a program that has done so much for me, but then this announcement came. I know I'm no where near the time investment of many members of Chiefdelphi, but this proposed change makes me question even wanting to give time to this program. FRC's attraction IS the competition. The drive to be the best team and provide the best experience for students is what propels nearly every team I've encountered forward.
To take away that competition at the highest level is akin to castrating a bull, all of the bravado but with none of the fire.
Here's to hoping we're all very wrong indeed...
smurfgirl
09-04-2015, 17:02
With all the hate against having 2 Championships, I wonder if FIRST will actually consider taking this back.
In my opinion, the answer should be this: Remove regional competitions, transfer everyone over to the District system. This way we could have district championship events (set up to be smaller versions of the current cmp) with the top teams still earning a spot at the World Championship. This would make the champs experience far more obtainable for a lot more teams without removing the prestige of the World championship top tier stage.
I think with the venues already booked, they are locked in.
I agree with you though that moving everyone to districts and district championships feeding into one Championship would have been better in terms of travel distance, cost, and overall experience/competition/inspiration factors.
I'd like to bring up two points,
The first,
Having more tiers of events isn't a good solution, it's going to
Add Cost
More travel time
More School missed (We want FRC students in college right?)
Likely more mentor/student/volunteer burnout
I know personally, our team would fold if another level was added.
The second is,
As a graduating senior, I'm starting to look towards my future involvement with FRC. After the 2013 and 2014 games, I was pretty excited to be able to mentor in the future. 2015 has been a letdown year compared to the previous, but it honestly hasn't been as bad as I was expecting. In fact, I've enjoyed it quite a bit more than I thought I would. I was excited to finally be able to give back to a program that has done so much for me, but then this announcement came. I know I'm no where near the time investment of many members of Chiefdelphi, but this proposed change makes me question even wanting to give time to this program. FRC's attraction IS the competition. The drive to be the best team and provide the best experience for students is what propels nearly every team I've encountered forward.
To take away that competition at the highest level is akin to castrating a bull, all of the bravado but with none of the fire...
You're in a dsitrict, you wouldnt see another level. Non-district regions would have another level added; District Championship ~ Super-Regionals.
bscharles
09-04-2015, 17:04
Seriously? Have we actually stooped to harrassing some poor phone staffers at HQ and laughing about it? You guys do realize that FIRST has more programs than just FRC, right? And that not everyone at HQ is an ex-FIRSTer? I realize that in your bubble, 254 and 1114 are world famous and everyone should know them, but that's simply not true. I guarantee you I can find veteran FRC teams that have never heard of either of those teams. You know why? Cause they've never been to Champs.
Okay, I haven't had time to read every post in this thread, because I work and I can't spend all afternoon keeping track of this, so forgive me if I'm not up to the minute on the debate. You can all mark me down as in favor of the change. Here's some comments:
Can we please try to be adults about this? Calling HQ enmasse and harrassing staffers there seems childish. Especially on Thursday of district champs. Especially when people are trying to work out actual problems for getting to the 2015 Champs. HQ isn't going to change this policy over a single day of CD exploding. You may as well settle in for a long fight if you want to fight this. Meanwhile, stop causing problems for normal teams.
No one is suggesting giving out awards in the KoP or trophies for participating in Champs. Suggesting FRC is moving to that is childish, stop. If you really think having two best in the world alliances instead of one is equivalent to participation trophies, I invite you to congratulate the Champs Finalists on their participation trophies.
Really, complaining about two world champions not being champions is unpersuasive to me in general. MLB has the NL and AL Championships and then proceeds to a World Series that only involves US teams + the occasional Canadian team. Not-actually-world-championships are a time honored tradition in sports. If you think this will confuse the general public, you may need to get out more.
It's laughable to declare that Champs was already deciding the top 3 teams in the world currently anyways, due to divisions. Einstein typically doesn't even have the top 4 alliances on it thanks to some divisions being packed.
We already have multiple EI winners at Champs. I'm finding it difficult to believe that WFA winners and Chairman's winners are going to feel cheated because someone else is recognized for extreme excellence in the same year. Petulantly whining that now you're not the absolute best at spreading the message seems out of character.
Champs is already pretty darned elite. About 33% of teams at Lone Star have EVER been to Champs before this year. I suspect this is fairly representative. You want to complain about not seeing all your favorite inspiring teams at Houston Champs? What about the 66% of FRC teams that haven't EVER seen these teams?
OTOH, Champs is already watered down. Waitlist teams, 2nd picks. 2nd pick wildcards. Are we really pretending that Champs is the absolute best of the best? Super Regionals may have gotten it closer, but you'd still have 2nd picks riding tailcoats in.
Really though, it all comes down to the teams for me. I see a ton of people in here declaring how inspiring Champs is, how great it is to see all these elite teams. And 66% of Lone Star teams have ever had that experience. I suspect Frank and those behind this decision might be a little more concerned about inspiring that 66% than the top 5% of teams splitting hairs over who's the #1 all-time greatest ever in the world this year.
I think you summed it up pretty well Kevin. My initial reaction was that two championships would dilute the feeling, but after seeing various reactions and thinking about this change more, I think it is overall a positive change for FIRST. When I look back at my time as a student in FRC, having the ability to go to championships on the waitlist was inspiring in so many ways, not only because of the atmosphere, but also being part of the competition. And it was fun to play with some of the best teams in the world, but in no way did it have to be with all of them. I understand where people are coming from in saying that it may further dilute the top tier competition, and I agree to an extend.
However, I think this change is a step in the right direction to get more students involved while maintaining a high level and respectable program
Seriously? Have we actually stooped to harrassing some poor phone staffers at HQ and laughing about it? You guys do realize that FIRST has more programs than just FRC, right? And that not everyone at HQ is an ex-FIRSTer? I realize that in your bubble, 254 and 1114 are world famous and everyone should know them, but that's simply not true. I guarantee you I can find veteran FRC teams that have never heard of either of those teams. You know why? Cause they've never been to Champs.
While I actually agree with most of your points, I get frustrated when people assume that just because I'm from 148 I don't understand "programatic issues" which apply to all teams, including teams not like my own. I assume Cory shares this frustration, and perhaps you shouldn't "put that on him" without talking to him.
To imply any knowledge of where Cory's head is at, to imply he has blind spots about aspects of the program implies a level of familiarity with his thinking that is probably inappropriate.
"You don't know him, why are you acting like you do?"
Quick question, hypothetical scenario:
We just won the 2017 week 1 regional event, and get to go to championships.
What venue are we going to?
If you say, "oh, you're closer to Detroit, you'll be there!" but then they have too many teams that live close to Detroit going, would we not be moved to Houston?
So, can we reserve hotels yet, or do we need to wait to book hotels, flights, food, etc. until a week out, when everything is far more expensive?
Not trying to be negative, just ask a real question.
Kevin Sevcik
09-04-2015, 17:12
The other thing we ought to remember is that attending the Championship is insanely expensive. Even if FIRST made registration free, it would be insanely expensive and many teams would never be able to raise that kind of money to spend on airplane tickets and hotels, when they could better spend that money running a sustainable competitive robotics team. We can serve this 66% at a significantly lower cost with District Championships or their equivalent. You can get 90% of the inspiration for 20% of the cost.District Champs are cheaper for teams to attend, but they're tied to the district system. You're not going if you're not good enough, so there's teams that might want/need the inspiration/workshops/etc. of Champs that won't get it cause now you can't waitlist into DCMP or CMP.
Also, I think you have your percentage or noun wrong. You can get 80%-90% of the competition of Champs at MSC, but I'm much less sure about the inspiration. I was only at MSC for a brief bit, but I'm pretty sure it's lacking in spectacle and grandeur compared to Champs. Some students are going to be more inspired by beign part of the big show celebrating this engineering competition than seeing the competition played at the highest level.
waialua359
09-04-2015, 17:15
The other thing we ought to remember is that attending the Championship is insanely expensive. Even if FIRST made registration free, it would be insanely expensive and many teams would never be able to raise that kind of money to spend on airplane tickets and hotels, when they could better spend that money running a sustainable competitive robotics team. We can serve this 66% at a significantly lower cost with District Championships or their equivalent. You can get 90% of the inspiration for 20% of the cost.
It will never happen, but I'd love to be wrong on this.
I think it remains to be seen just how "different" the costs will be for teams in the next several years with all of these major changes. I just hope we can afford those changes.
Really though, it all comes down to the teams for me. I see a ton of people in here declaring how inspiring Champs is, how great it is to see all these elite teams. And 66% of Lone Star teams have ever had that experience. I suspect Frank and those behind this decision might be a little more concerned about inspiring that 66% than the top 5% of teams splitting hairs over who's the #1 all-time greatest ever in the world this year.
And this system fixes it how? More waitlist slots? If you want to help the 66% of team at lone star, you need to push for districts in Texas as you don't get out of Lone Star without 118, 624, or the visiting super team's help. State championships gives lower level team something to aim at that doesn't involve having to beat the super Texas teams or be cheesecaked by them.
Dunngeon
09-04-2015, 17:16
You're in a dsitrict, you wouldnt see another level. Non-district regions would have another level added; District Championship ~ Super-Regionals.
Yes, I am. Teams in districts have the luxury of competing in 3 events for the price of 2. My point about my team paying 4 registrations was directed towards the split CMP or DCMP -> Super Regional that some were suggesting earlier in the thread. I agree that DCMP should equal a Super Regional.
Walter Deitzler
09-04-2015, 17:19
My thoughts on this whole situation, as someone who has attended the last 5 world championships and has learned something at all of them. Sorry in advance for any grammatical errors, writing is not my strong suit..
As an excited 8th grader starting FIRST 5 years ago, I would never have though that I would feel relieved to be leaving the program, but now, as a senior, I am disappointed by what FIRST is doing to the program. I have attended the FIRST championship every year since 2010 and each and every year has been helpful in either inspiring me, or making me better at FRC/engineering in general. This is a look at each year I have gone, how it influenced me, and why we need a 1 championship system (based on my experiences that year).
In 2010, The year before I started, my dad and I took a road trip from St. Louis to visit my cousin's team (future Hall of Fame 1538) in Atlanta to watch them compete. I was in complete awe of many of the teams there. I got to meet 1986's guitar hero robot, 1538 showed their 10 wheel drive train to me, and let me run the controls (while it was off the ground, of course). I had premier seating for the finals, not too high up, and pretty close to the center. After coming home from this, I was an inspired little 7th grader, paving the way for my years to come. I was not sure who exactly the "big teams" were at the time, but I did not have to. With everyone being in that stadium, a simple walk around the pits showed me the best robots in the WORLD, not just from the area. I did not have to know who was the best to see some pretty sick robots. With a dual championships, a person who is knowledgeable can Google their favorite robots, but a spectator who has no idea is missing out on (and will not Google the great teams they are missing) will surely not have quite the same inspiring experience as if they attended a championship with every powerhouse team.
8th grade year I joined the local high school team (the love of my life, team 3397) as soon as I turned 15. This happened to be the year that we won St. Louis regional and went to participate in World Championships. We had a blast on the Galileo division, even being able to compete in the qualification match against 254 and 111 (ever wondered what being inspired by being destroyed feels like? Here is a video of the match. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn5iOvLN7AI) We are the robot with the awkward PVC arm) Now, in a duel system, there is no way we would have gotten to participate with these two teams. 111 would most likely have gone to Detroit, and 254 down to Houston. Those two teams and that match were my first eye openers to what real robotics teams could accomplish. The more these top level teams are split up, the less experiences like this one will happen, and, looking back as a senior, these experiences NEED to happen. We lose that match horribly, but just being against those teams was huge for us.
2012, my 9th grade year, I took time off of school to visit world championships, because, while my team had not made it, I live 10 minutes form the dome and could not miss the opportunity to go on down. This was a year of learning. I spent hours in the pits, taking photos and notes of pretty much every robot there. Here (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.231146690320872.38183.100002766279755&type=1&l=b4587a044d) is the album for anyone interested. All of the team's I met there? All of the information I learned helped my team move vastly foreward. While in the previous years we had only used PVC and woods, mentors and students from all over talked to me about gaining sponsorships and working with metal. I talked to teams from Michigan about sheet metal and teams from California about welding box tubing. Every region has their thing, and bringing all the regions together at 1 championship lets everyone see what the other regions are doing, past the 360p regional streams and low quality "teaser" pictures. If you are a team in the south, the only way you will get a close look at the robots from the north will be through those streams and photos. Trust me, a good, up close look is always 10x better and much, much more informative.
Alright, onto 2013, this year is a big one. Again, my tam did not make it, so I went on my own. It was my first year attending Karthik's Seminar at championships. I learned a lot from that, it was great, and will be something that only the northern teams will get to see live (although, I will be honest, you can get the same experience by watching the stream, unless you have questions, then you are out of luck.) The real great thing that year? Well, I got to hang out with team #610 that whole weekend. Starting Thursday, I was sitting with 1114 (I had no friends attending, so I just sat with them because there was an open spot). Their team started coming in though, so I started to move away, not wanting to have to split them up at my behalf. Well, Edwin from 610 saw me leave and offered me a spot with them. Soon I met the rest of their team, made really good friends with one of their seniors, Adam Scott, and he let me sit with him the rest of the competition. Yes, that includes when they beat 118/1114 and when they were winning Einstein. I can assume you all can imagine why this was inspiring, so I will skip over that. A single world championship is important due to the fact that it allows you to meet people from cultures all over the world. Every culture that makes it to worlds? You have the chance to interact and learn about each of those cultures. At a dual championship system, the north will not get the chance to learn about those from, say, Mexico and Brazil, while the south will not get to learn about Canada and, say, the Europeans. It is wonderful to get to interact with so many people in so many places, and having less of those to interact with definitely diminishes the experience.
Finally, 2014, the most recent year I attending. I do not have much to say here, just that sponsors love the whole world aspect of championships. I was giving the engineers from my father's company a tour of different teams and robot at championships. At the end of the day, they were talking about only two of the 10 teams that I showed them. These two teams? 1114 and 254. They did not even care about anyone else, just these guys, who, at a dual championships, would not even be attending the same event. The sponsors who go are constantly impressed by teams from all over the globe at champions, not just the teams form the local region. If we want these sponsors to keep being impressed, we need to keep everyone in the same location so that the people doing the funding can see the best robots from all over the world, not just from one region.
TL;DR: Dual championships is a bad idea because it inspires less, has less opportunity for lower tier teams to actually compete against the "best of the best", prevents a good deal of cultural interaction, and will not allow sponsors to see the best of the world, even though that is what they like to see.
Thanks for reading.
rhinobot
09-04-2015, 17:20
Here's my $0.02
It would have been cool of FIRST to ask what we thought before taking drastic measures like this....and I tried to see this the way FIRST is, but I cant, this is ridiculous.
FIRST has been going downhill, ever since they stopped allowing Grade 12's to compete for Dean's List and removed robot contact (This game has grown on me however, the can race is super fun to watch. Not hating on Recycle Rush). Now they want to take the Competition out of FIRST Robotics Competition.
A quote my old team always used to use was "Winning isn't everything, wanting to win is". You cant strive to be the best if you know you never can be, no matter how hard you try.
The goal is to inspire the kids and help promote STEM in them. You cant do that by taking away the drive. If you don't teach the kids to want to do better in robotics (and then life) then how are they ever going to succeed? Everyone can't be the best, life's not like that. They can however, try as hard as they possibly can, then go home happy with everything they have accomplished that season...and strive to be better next season. When they work super hard and finally make it to champs, they will know what success feels like.
Its been said before but the competition is what brings people to FIRST. I personally do not like what FIRST is becoming. Don't get me wrong, change is great....but the cons of this change greatly outweigh the pros. However I would love to be proven wrong. At the end of the day, if the kids are inspired and want to do better (win or lose) then its a good day, I just don't want them to lose the spark.
My views do not in any way represent my team. They are uniquely my own.
Jared Russell
09-04-2015, 17:20
I suspect that the full, complete extent of this story has yet to be revealed. ;)
That's good. Unless it's bad. :)
The timing seems odd to tell teams a partial story right at the point in the season when we are most burnt out. Canburglar prototypes make good pitchforks and torches in a pinch.
Kevin Sevcik
09-04-2015, 17:22
While I actually agree with most of your points, I get frustrated when people assume that just because I'm from 148 I don't understand "programatic issues" which apply to all teams, including teams not like my own. I assume Cory shares this frustration, and perhaps you shouldn't "put that on him" without talking to him.
To imply any knowledge of where Cory's head is at, to imply he has blind spots about aspects of the program implies a level of familiarity with his thinking that is probably inappropriate.
"You don't know him, why are you acting like you do?"Noted, and chastened. I retract the implication that Cory et. al. have said blind spots, assume everyone must know about 254, etc. I'll edit the post to reflect that better.
I'm leaving my frustration at harrassing HQ staffers, however. And I'm curious what Cory finds "sadly unsurprising" about an HQ staffer never having been to a competition or never having heard of 254 or 1114.
jman4747
09-04-2015, 17:24
While I actually agree with most of your points, I get frustrated when people assume that just because I'm from 148 I don't understand "programatic issues" which apply to all teams, including teams not like my own. I assume Cory shares this frustration, and perhaps you shouldn't "put that on him" without talking to him.
To imply any knowledge of where Cory's head is at, to imply he has blind spots about aspects of the program implies a level of familiarity with his thinking that is probably inappropriate.
"You don't know him, why are you acting like you do?"
Sorry if I'm out of turn but I think what Keven was saying in the quoted text was that it may not be fair to the staffer to hold it against them if they are unfamiliar with a certain team. Even if said team preforms well and is well known to many other participants. I don't think it was denouncing anyone.
I might as well break my "I will always lurk on CD and never post.
I'm not sure how I really feel about, mostly because I'm only a sophomore so I don't have a lot of experience. I went to worlds last year, that was definitely one of the greatest times in my life. Going into this year I was really unhappy with the game. Starting from Aerial Assist and going to Recycle Rush was very depressing. Last year my team focused on defense, so to see a game with no defense was disheartening.
Along with this, I've had issues in my life as to whether I continue to pursue my role on my robotics team. As the drive team coach and the head of the electrical team I'd feel bad if I just left. But as this year progresses I just see more and more things I don't like coming from FIRST. I really hope the community can change what is going on, or else I'm not sure if I really want to keep doing this.
Jared Russell
09-04-2015, 17:30
I think criticizing whomever answers the phone at FIRST HQ is a little ridiculous. Come on now. The implication that there is a divide between FIRST HQ and the teams might be valid, but we're jumping the shark.
I will never hold it against anyone to not know who a particular team is. My ego is not that large.
Kevin Sevcik
09-04-2015, 17:37
It appears that lobbying for change, publicly expressing your opinion, and talking with others about change makes you a child. In fact, just go along with whatever happens, because there's no point in trying to change anything -- let it all happen as it is.I said two things were childish. The second was suggesting this means FRC is going to start handing out Champs participation trophies in the KoP or for simply showing up at Champs. That's ridiculous, will never happen, and suggesting it is a cheap rhetorical trick, not a serious argument against 2 Champs. It's childish.
The first was calling HQ mere hours after a major policy shift that won't have an effect till 2017 and demanding some random phone staffer explain the reasoning behind said policy. While teams are trying to manage 2015 Champs registrations and bookings. As I noted, nothing's going to change from people exploding at HQ today. All calling today would do is muck things up for teams trying to handle 2015 Champs. If you want to lobby for change, be smarter about it and organize. Don't take your knee-jerk reaction and start harassing random people that can't do anything about it. That's childish.
efoote868
09-04-2015, 17:40
No. No, no, no, no. First, congrats on disincentivizing 1st seeds picking 2nd seeds. 2nd seed sure would think twice about accepting if winning meant they'd only go to the Loser's Championship.
Not sure if post was unclear, but meant the 2nd and 3rd picks as in 17th-32nd picks of the serpentine drafts - you know, the teams that "ride the coat-tails" of the 1st and 2nd seed.
Second, yes, you really would be creating a Loser's Championship. Your whole purpose is to create a "real" Champs with all the "good" teams, and, well, that other Champs with all those other teams. Two geographically segregated Champs may or may not be a good idea, but I'm pretty sure a "premier" Champs and "that other" Champs is a terrible one for the health of the community.
There would still be a competition, and while in this scenario the winning alliance in the non-premier event wouldn't be able to claim to be the World Champions, winning an event that big would still be an impressive feat.
Andrew Lawrence
09-04-2015, 17:40
I'm leaving my frustration at harrassing HQ staffers, however. And I'm curious what Cory finds "sadly unsurprising" about an HQ staffer never having been to a competition or never having heard of 254 or 1114.
I would never expect someone answering phones at FIRST HQ to know everything about FIRST and FRC - that's just an unrealistic expectation - but it would make me feel better if they were involved in and at the least bit knowledgeable of the programs that they work in. I wouldn't want a perspective new team to call in with questions and have the people answering the phones unable to help them. What does it say about an organization when its representatives aren't even aware of the main happenings within their area of work? How could FIRST tell us to look up to these example teams when their own faculty are unaware of the amazing contributions these teams have provided to their organization? How do they not know 254 when Barrage is literally sitting at FIRST HQ?
George Nishimura
09-04-2015, 17:41
Would people really see a "Division II tournament" as Loser's Championship? There's no respect for being among the top ~25% best teams in the world?
I would think having a greater opportunity to be a big influence and win is motivating enough, let alone being able to meet and play with a lot of new robots for the first time. And since when were only the top 10% the only inspiring teams?
Honestly, in terms of competition achievement, I'd take a deep run in to play-offs of any championship over qualifications, regardless of the tournament. I think either would be inspiring and fuel for the following years.
For reference, in my head I'm ranking teams based on a district-like points basis.
I'm curious about one thing. Many have (rightly) lambasted FIRST for, among other things, devaluing the championship experience.
But whenever I, or a few other people, try to argue that districts are devaluing the regional experience, the argument is largely ignored. Why is that? Are they not as similar as I think, is it because the benefits of districts are more obvious, is it because most frequent posters here always go to championships...?
According to FIRST, "2 is better than 1". I suppose quantity is better than quality then...
Noted, and chastened. I retract the implication that Cory et. al. have said blind spots, assume everyone must know about 254, etc. I'll edit the post to reflect that better.
I'm leaving my frustration at harrassing HQ staffers, however. And I'm curious what Cory finds "sadly unsurprising" about an HQ staffer never having been to a competition or never having heard of 254 or 1114.
I assumed he spoke with someone in team support who is familiar with the program. In retrospect that could clearly be a false assumption.
In general I was expressing frustration that there is a huge disconnect between HQ and what the "team experience" is. Obviously we have seen good steps taken to address that by Frank, but then they go and do something like release this without having sought out any team feedback, at which point they (very predictably) get nearly unanimously negative feedback. There surely was a better way to do this.
If it turns out we don't know the whole story (as Dave hinted to earlier in the thread) then it was silly for FIRST to not tell the whole story at the right time, in order to avoid all the outrage in the first place.
robochick1319
09-04-2015, 17:45
I wonder if a lot of the anger or frustration stems from there not seeming to be any consultation with actual FRC teams. We receive surveys after every single week of regionals because (theoretically) FIRST cares about our experience. I always found that reassuring.
But having 2 Championships dropped on us seemingly out of the blue is pretty shocking. Did no one see this coming? Was there some sort of secret poll or whispers going on last year?
When things change in FIRST, there's usually a few people who at least know the thinking behind the HQ decisions.
ForLeTheory
09-04-2015, 17:45
From: http://www.usfirst.org/aboutus/2017-first-championship-announcement
I like the concept, but it disappointing that not every team can compete againist each other.
JohnSchneider
09-04-2015, 17:45
Would people really see a "Division II tournament" as Loser's Championship? There's no respect for being among the top ~25% best teams in the world?
I would think having a greater opportunity to be a big influence and win is motivating enough, let alone being able to meet and play with a lot of new robots for the first time. And since when were only the top 10% the only inspiring teams?
Honestly, in terms of competition achievement, I'd take a deep run in to play-offs of any championship over qualifications, regardless of the tournament. I think either would be inspiring and fuel for the following years.
For reference, in my head I'm ranking teams based on a district-like points basis.
Not a "Losers championship" but definitely in a different league. And there's nothing wrong with that. Gives more team the experience without sacrificing compete time teams experience.
connor.worley
09-04-2015, 17:46
I'm curious about one thing. Many have (rightly) lambasted FIRST for, among other things, devaluing the championship experience.
But whenever I, or a few other people, try to argue that districts are devaluing the regional experience, the argument is largely ignored. Why is that? Are they not as similar as I think, is it because the benefits of districts are more obvious, is it because most frequent posters here always go to championships...?
You don't have to earn your way into a regional/district event.
216Robochick288
09-04-2015, 17:46
I might as well break my "I will always lurk on CD and never post.
First, welcome to the insanity, Im sad that this is where your first post is. Go check out the thread for quotes or the "addicted to FIRST" one :P
Along with this, I've had issues in my life as to whether I continue to pursue my role on my robotics team. As the drive team coach and the head of the electrical team I'd feel bad if I just left. But as this year progresses I just see more and more things I don't like coming from FIRST. I really hope the community can change what is going on, or else I'm not sure if I really want to keep doing this.
Dont give up on FIRST. Its a good program, and its heart is in the right place, even if they are going about it in a way that upsets people. The program overall and the people in it wont change based on a change to Worlds. Its an evolving program, and the first of its kind and of this scale. There are things that need to be figured out, and this is on the list of things.
jman4747
09-04-2015, 17:47
Would people really see a "Division II tournament" as Loser's Championship? There's no respect for being among the top ~25% best teams in the world?
I would think having a greater opportunity to be a big influence and win is motivating enough, let alone being able to meet and play with a lot of new robots for the first time. And since when were only the top 10% the only inspiring teams?
Honestly, in terms of competition achievement, I'd take a deep run in to play-offs of any championship over qualifications, regardless of the tournament. I think either would be inspiring and fuel for the following years.
For reference, in my head I'm ranking teams based on a district-like points basis.
Not sure if post was unclear, but meant the 2nd and 3rd picks as in 17th-32nd picks of the serpentine drafts - you know, the teams that "ride the coat-tails" of the 1st and 2nd seed.
There would still be a competition, and while in this scenario the winning alliance in the non-premier event wouldn't be able to claim to be the World Champions, winning an event that big would still be an impressive feat.
This: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1468699&postcount=95
Pick order is not everything. Go look up 2014 Peachtree elims.
Tom Line
09-04-2015, 17:47
I wonder if first would be amenable to helping the winning team from one event travel to the other each year to crown a true world champ.
I wonder if first would be amenable to helping the winning team from one event travel to the other each year to crown a true world champ.
No amount of financial support will help if students and mentors can't get time off from school/work to attend on 2~3 days notice.
Tom Line
09-04-2015, 17:51
No amount of financial support will help if students and mentors can't get time off from school/work to attend on 2~3 days notice.
True. Time does pose a problem. But we'd be talking about flying in Friday night, getting first boys running and competing Saturday, then flying home. I bet most could free up a weekend.
I did speak with team support, to someone who said they had worked there for a few years (not a volunteer). It was not that they did not know specific teams, it was that they had no idea when I was referring to their numbers that I was talking about teams. That is a giant disconnect.
pwnageNick
09-04-2015, 17:56
True. Time does pose a problem. But we'd be talking about flying in Friday night, getting first boys running and competing Saturday, then flying home. I bet most could free up a weekend.
...After some already took off 2, 3, 4 weekends for the competitions leading up to that. Also most bosses wouldn't be ecstatic about someone coming in on monday and saying they would need to be off again on Thursday or Friday to go to another World Championship. Even if you told them ahead of time it may be a possibility, you're just adding on another week that you would have to be off.
Also factor in that teams who pla at the second event have a strategic advantage of knowing who they would inevitably play in the finals if they made it that far.
George Nishimura
09-04-2015, 17:57
This: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1468699&postcount=95
Seed is not everything. Go look up 2014 Peachtree elims.
I don't know if this was in response to my comment, but District points are not based purely on seed.
Also, I don't want to give the impression that the idea of tiering Championship (to Div I and Div II) is a fully-fleshed out idea, I just wanted to contest the argument that it would be harmful culturally, disrespected, and not inspiring.
In my Grade 9 (Freshman) year, I attended the World Championships in 2013 as a kid who really didn’t know what he was getting into, who wasn’t really interested in engineering or computers outside of video games. When I got there, I then understood the sheer size of the FIRST Program, and how many people it’s reached.
During my time off from scouting, I walked around team’s pits, trying to visit the teams from places that I’ve never been to (shoutout to 27, 111, 118) . I’ve traveled around the States before as a tourist, but I never once imagined that in almost every place that I’ve been to, there are a ton of FIRST teams that I never saw. That really opened my eyes to how FIRST has spread. I visited the sponsor area, where I saw rows upon rows of opportunities and awesome exhibitions, all using the same skills and thought process applied in FIRST.
Two years later, my passion for FIRST has led me to love being at competition and talking to teams, and fortunately, my job at competitions lets me do just that. I love talking and learning about the robots and teams that have come from far away.
From experience, I’ve learned that the teams from the South approach the game in a much different way than we in the North do, and I think that if Championships was split into two region-locked areas, I wouldn’t get that same experience of learning their way of thinking, as well as losing the experience of sharing our method of approach.
And from a purely selfish standpoint, the Californian robots are all really cool and I'd be losing the chance to see them in real life.
From FIRST on Facebook:
We are excited about the prospect of two Championship events, but understand it comes with its share of challenges and concerns from our Community. We value your feedback, and it will be helpful to us as we delve into the planning process in the coming months and years. Stay tuned for updates, and please continue to share your constructive thoughts with us as we move forward. Thank you!
Kevin Sevcik
09-04-2015, 18:05
Not a "Losers championship" but definitely in a different league. And there's nothing wrong with that. Gives more team the experience without sacrificing compete time teams experience.I understand that your whole point is to segregate all the ultra-competitive teams into one of the Champs. While this theoretically solves the problem of defining the "true" world champ, it seems to exacerbate most other problems people have. Namely, it cuts off half of the champs population from ALL the elite teams while maintaining all the logistical issues of two Champs. And since you've decided the premier event is the one that really counts for world champs, how is everyone at the other event supposed to feel?
I mean honestly. If you absolutely have to crown the best team of the year for some reason, let's just all agree that IRI is the definitive world championship. I'm pretty sure most people think that already anyways.
I understand that your whole point is to segregate all the ultra-competitive teams into one of the Champs. While this theoretically solves the problem of defining the "true" world champ, it seems to exacerbate most other problems people have. Namely, it cuts off half of the champs population from ALL the elite teams while maintaining all the logistical issues of two Champs. And since you've decided the premier event is the one that really counts for world champs, how is everyone at the other event supposed to feel?
I mean honestly. If you absolutely have to crown the best team of the year for some reason, let's just all agree that IRI is the definitive world championship. I'm pretty sure most people think that already anyways.
Thats like saying the pro-bowl decides which NFL division is the best. No, the World Championship/Superbowl does.
efoote868
09-04-2015, 18:09
Namely, it cuts off half of the champs population from ALL the elite teams while maintaining all the logistical issues of two Champs. And since you've decided the premier event is the one that really counts for world champs, how is everyone at the other event supposed to feel?
Excited that they get to compete in another FIRST sponsored event, that they would not have been able to otherwise due to limited space at the championship event.
jman4747
09-04-2015, 18:10
I don't know if this was in response to my comment, but District points are not based purely on seed.
Also, I don't want to give the impression that the idea of tiering Championship (to Div I and Div II) is a fully-fleshed out idea, I just wanted to contest the argument that it would be harmful culturally, disrespected, and not inspiring.
I just want to point out that in a scenario where champs tickets depended on what order you were added to your alliance you could send perfectly good teams who may be better all around than those who picked them to the wrong place.
I realize I said seed instead of pick order. Basically the alliance captain may not be more "high level" than the first or second pick and ranking on that metric is somewhat unreliable.
Theloudbatista
09-04-2015, 18:10
Thats like saying the pro-bowl decides which NFL division is the best. No, the World Championship/Superbowl does.
Thank you I have been looking for a way to explain this. I have been saying that it's like having the world cup stop with the top four teams and just calling them all winners
First, welcome to the insanity, Im sad that this is where your first post is. Go check out the thread for quotes or the "addicted to FIRST" one :P
Dont give up on FIRST. Its a good program, and its heart is in the right place, even if they are going about it in a way that upsets people. The program overall and the people in it wont change based on a change to Worlds. Its an evolving program, and the first of its kind and of this scale. There are things that need to be figured out, and this is on the list of things.
It's not my first rodeo in a forums, but I can assure you this is one of the more strange forums I've gone to. Anyway, yeah I'm not giving up on the program, I'm more upset. Not to mention I have to decide between a job and robotics. While I want to do robotics a lot more, there's also a lot of issues in my team. It's a really tough position, I want to stick it out but it's tough.
Thanks for the support though! :D
Greg Needel
09-04-2015, 18:13
I would encourage everyone to take a couple of deep breaths here. The announcement caught us all off guard and the implications of it are shocking at first glace. I personally had the same gut reaction as many of you and still have many of those feelings. That being said, these changes wont come about until the 2017 season.
There are some things that I am sure FIRST can't change at this point (locations and dates), but they admitted that lots of other details are still being worked out. Lets not jump to any conclusions as I am sure more to this development will be announced in the near future, and with enough constructive feedback FIRST may re-consider some specific details or at least explain the reasoning behind some of the decisions.
Personally I am going to focus on the upcoming championship (two weeks away! :D ) and wait for more information. The world is not all doom and gloom, and on our worst days we still get to play with robots, even if there are 8 champions instead of 4.
Excited that they get to compete in another FIRST sponsored event, that they would not have been able to otherwise due to limited space at the championship event.
Congratulations Oakland Raiders on a wonderful regular season, you now get to compete in the 2nd NFL playoffs with the NFL-Europe teams.
I doubt anyone associated with them or their fans would be as excited.
Ian Curtis
09-04-2015, 18:17
District Champs are cheaper for teams to attend, but they're tied to the district system. You're not going if you're not good enough, so there's teams that might want/need the inspiration/workshops/etc. of Champs that won't get it cause now you can't waitlist into DCMP or CMP.
Also, I think you have your percentage or noun wrong. You can get 80%-90% of the competition of Champs at MSC, but I'm much less sure about the inspiration. I was only at MSC for a brief bit, but I'm pretty sure it's lacking in spectacle and grandeur compared to Champs. Some students are going to be more inspired by beign part of the big show celebrating this engineering competition than seeing the competition played at the highest level.
I have seen it work wonders on our students, mentors, and parents over the last two years. :)
If you're not good enough, I don't think the Championship or the DCMP is very inspiring either. It's no fun to get blown out of the water every match. In my experience, people on the team start complaining about how the schedule is rigged, or how everyone else has "cheated" in some way. Your mileage may vary.
Jared Russell
09-04-2015, 18:17
Congratulations Oakland Raiders on a wonderful regular season, you now get to compete in the 2nd NFL playoffs with the NFL-Europe teams.
I doubt anyone associated with them or their fans would be as excited.
This is quite literally how the Europa League works in European soccer. Finish in one of the top 4 spots in your division? You go to the Champions League (top level cup competition). The next two spots? Europa League. Both competitions are taken fairly seriously, and at the end there is a match between the champions of the two (The European Super Cup).
Not saying that it is necessarily the right thing to do for FRC, but there is precedent.
brandon.cottrell
09-04-2015, 18:21
So the 2016 champions, are they going to be the last "World" Champions, sorta in the same way that 217, 469 and 440 were the last Detroit Regional Champions? What's the labeling on this?
Also this reminds me of my comments on the thread for when they made most of the awards division level. How do we explain to our school that we were the "Houston Championship Tesla Division Imagery Award Winners". Really rolls off the tongue. Also now it's not 3 other teams that also won the division level award, and now it's not even 7 other teams that won the award. It's 15. Still prestigious, but less valuable. : /
Orthofort
09-04-2015, 18:25
I've watched the drama unfold today and have been afraid to post since my opinion doesn't seem to lie with the majority, but here goes:
I understand the extreme disappointment that comes from the lack of a singular winning alliance, or a singular winning CCA, and I won't fight that point in particular.
However I do think we need to take a step back and view FIRST as a whole, or even just FRC as a whole. The portion of obsessed people that frequent CD only represents a small part of the people involved with the program. There are many, many people who dedicate their lives come build season, but only to their team, they don't necessarily follow FRC as a whole and keep up with all the top teams. Many of these people probably couldn't even name last year's winners.
I know many of the people on my team in particular only have even heard of 254 or 1114 if I've showed them videos, raved about their robots to them, etc. They simply aren't in our region, and they only see FRC at the competitions we go to, they don't spend nights on CD or watch other streams, but their just as dedicated to FRC and our team as anyone else is.
These people form a vast majority of the population of FIRST, heck I'd bet the majority of people in FIRST haven't even heard of CD. These people in general would be incredibly excited at this news. I know that once people on my team found out the news today they were ecstatic, because to be honest, they don't care whether champs crowns a single victor, they just love the extra opportunities to compete with a higher level of play.
Now this isn't to discredit the people on those teams like 254 and 1114, who reasonably are angry at this. I know if I were on one of those elite teams, my reaction probably would have been very different. And a significant part of the FRC-obsessed piece of me is extremely disappointed that this was FIRST's solution to the problem.
In no way was this the best solution to the problem in my opinion, I think expanding the 3-tiered system of districts -> regionals -> champs would have been the best solution, and I personally am frustrated with their secrecy before dumping this out of nowhere.
However, we have to understand that this does appeal to the larger majority of FIRST that isn't necessarily represented here on CD.
Not saying that it is necessarily the right thing to do for FRC, but there is precedent.
Several orgs do it that way. It's great.
Competitive Cheerleading (which I have coached for 14 years now) does the same thing, with NCA/UCA/The Cheerleading Worlds. Place at the top of those and you get invited to The Champions League. Top 15 teams are filmed and then it is shown at AMC Theaters across the country.
Cheerleading also holds an invitational championships at many levels, place well at the invitational and you get a bid to the full championships the next week. The invitational has the same rules/venue/experience, it is just a different level of competition. It allows those who just missed champs for whatever reason a chance to work their way up to the top.
This will not bode well for the future of FIRST if the information we have is close to complete. As of right now, it looks like the Championshplit will be the status quo for the years listed.
By taking the championship, one of the most inspiring things in FIRST, and cutting it in half, they have cut the inspiration in half, then removed sizable fractions from both, since so much inspiration comes from competing against the best. Did they not only remove the C from FR_, but also shrink the I from FiRST?
A number of teams, some of the best teams, go into the build season with the goal: "Win the World Championship". A number of people (myself included) go into the season with this goal. This change creates not only an existential crisis for FIRST HQ, but also for a number of teams (many of whom have spoken today), and these people. I took the year off from FIRST to focus on my studies and the rest of my life, in hopes of returning and achieving greater success with a new team, but with the Championship gone, I may not return at all.
George Nishimura
09-04-2015, 18:27
I understand that your whole point is to segregate all the ultra-competitive teams into one of the Champs. While this theoretically solves the problem of defining the "true" world champ, it seems to exacerbate most other problems people have.
The idea prioritizes the prestige and competitiveness of each event over travel costs. It definitely has its flaws, but it appeals to people like me who are motivated by the competitive side of FRC.
Namely, it cuts off half of the champs population from ALL the elite teams
In the same way championship(s) cuts off 75% of all teams from the "elite" teams. If separation was undesirable, two championships was not the right idea. There is always some sort of cut-off.
while maintaining all the logistical issues of two Champs.
The original source of the suggestion (I believe) was made after accepting that two championship events is unavoidable, as the venues are booked in advance.
And since you've decided the premier event is the one that really counts for world champs, how is everyone at the other event supposed to feel?
Excited to meet and play with other amazing robots, and proud of their achievement to make it to a championship?
let's just all agree that IRI is the definitive world championship. I'm pretty sure most people think that already anyways.
If that's not facetious, it's unfortunately quite an insular view. IRI is an off-season tournament in the middle of July, with very little prestige outside of a cluster within the FRC community. People on CD are usually clued in, but I'd bet many, if not most teams, have never heard of IRI, nor regard it as "world championship". Let alone sponsors, or administrators and parents who may have to fund another trip, or disrupt summer vacations, in order to allow students to attend.
The concept of having divisions is not new: for example, it exists in the sport I play (Ultimate Frisbee*) where we have Div I Nationals (top 16) and Div II Nationals (17-32).
We only made it to Div II this year: are we disappointed? Yes. Will we take Div II seriously? Absolutely, we want to win it**
*UK university
**disclaimer - I'm actually going to St. Louis instead of going to Nationals.
I am particularly concerned about all the comments (not even just comments on this thread, comments on Facebook or personal conversations) about students only being inspired IF they get to attend Champs, and that being the reason that having 2 Champs where more teams get to attend is a good thing.
I was personally inspired by FRC my freshman year in late 2012, watching an off-season competition. I also attended Champs the following year in St. Louis to play Ultimate Ascent. I also attended Champs last year to play Areal Assist, and my team and I set a world record. This year, we did not qualify. I will not be attending Champs this season. But I can sure as hell tell you that not qualifying, having our season end so early, $@#$@#$@#$@#, has it set a fire underneath me to qualify next year. I wanted to see robots like 254, 1114, I wanted to compete. Kids will be inspired weather or not they go to Champs, they will have something to work towards if there is a Championships.
However, diving Champs into two events, hoping to give more kids the ability to attend? I want to know that I have earned my spot at Champs, and I want to compete with some of the best teams in the world and learn from them. I want to have something to work for. Imagine a Championships where you don't get to see your favorite robots win or lose, or imagine a year where 1114 wins Detroit and 254 wins Houston...imagine how incomplete that competition would be.
Please, if you agree with anything that I'm saying or that others have said, do something! Email, call FIRST. They have listened to us before, very recently in fact, because of our complaints and concerns (cheesecaking). Lets give FIRST the benefit of the doubt and give them our concerns, hopefully they'll listen.
efoote868
09-04-2015, 18:39
Congratulations Oakland Raiders on a wonderful regular season, you now get to compete in the 2nd NFL playoffs with the NFL-Europe teams.
I doubt anyone associated with them or their fans would be as excited.
If you have a pessimistic view about it, sure. But if all you wanted was for your team/students to extend the season and compete officially one more time it would be wonderful.
If you have a pessimistic view about it, sure. But if all you wanted was for your team/students to extend the season and compete officially one more time it would be wonderful.
I understand that. So then lets compare "extended season." Teams can have seniors compete one last time at post-season events. Example comparison: Panther Prowl vs 2015 World Championship. Which would you think would be the more inspiring event?
Its not a pessimistic view, its a realistic one.
evand4567
09-04-2015, 18:44
http://i.imgur.com/kLIeBjz.jpg
efoote868
09-04-2015, 18:55
I understand that. So then lets compare "extended season." Teams can have seniors compete one last time at post-season events. Example comparison: Panther Prowl vs 2015 World Championship. Which would you think would be the more inspiring event?
Its not a pessimistic view, its a realistic one.
Off season events by definition are not official FIRST events; which means there is no chance at an official award and that teams do not approach them in the same way. Even at the most highly esteemed IRI, quite a few teams will not compete with their regular season drive team (even if they haven't graduated, they like to identify potential new drivers), which means that as good as that event is, it is not as competitive as it could be.
Steve Howland
09-04-2015, 19:01
Phew! This is a long thread.
The main grievances, from what I can tell, are:
Teams were not given a fair opportunity to provide input
This removes the opportunity to see the best teams, teams from around the world, and friends in the FIRST community all in one place
There are multiple champions, so none of them is the “real” champion
The idea of attending a Championship event is cheapened because there are two of them
FIRST tells you which event you’re going to, and it is based on geography
Travel costs and distances are not significantly lower for many teams (and increase for some)
Team quality at the championship events may be lower
Volunteer burn-out for those who try to attend both
Possible issues with sponsors/exhibitors who now have to attend 2 championships or select one
What are the positives?
Thousands more students at all age levels get to attend
Travel distances and costs are indeed lower for many teams
Economic benefit to the cities of Detroit and Houston
FIRST will become more prominent in these cities
More award winners at the highest level
And what don’t we know yet?
Will another Championship be added in the near future? (California? Virginia?)
Will a “super-championship” be added at a higher level?
Are there other things FIRST has planned but cannot yet announce?
If you think the negatives outweigh the positives, you have options.
Email, call, tweet, comment, or facebook post to FIRST. An email address was provided: customerservice@usfirst.org. Politely explain your concerns. They won’t be answered immediately, but they have asked for your input so you may as well provide it. Maybe it’s not too late to change things. Or maybe with time and some more information, the community will start to sway more towards agreeing with, or at least understanding the decision.
Go with it. Vent and discuss on CD, but understand that the conversation here will not be read by many people and is unlikely to change things.
Boycott Championships. Have your lead mentor write a letter explaining to FIRST that beginning in 2017 you will not attend a championship event if you qualify, because you want to preserve the integrity and culture of the single World Championships.
(Please note that I am not advocating for any particular option)
faust1706
09-04-2015, 19:08
This is quite literally how the Europa League works in European soccer. Finish in one of the top 4 spots in your division? You go to the Champions League (top level cup competition). The next two spots? Europa League. Both competitions are taken fairly seriously, and at the end there is a match between the champions of the two (The European Super Cup).
Not saying that it is necessarily the right thing to do for FRC, but there is precedent.
The champions league is the biggest thing to win right under the Euro and the World cup itself.
Qualifications are a bit more strict than that for the champions league as well. 3 teams from spain, 3 from germany, 3 from england, 2 from italy, 2 from france, 2 from portugual, and 1 from various other countries.
I think the best route would be to have one championship be for regional winners, and the other for chairmans, EI, rookie, etc.
MrRoboSteve
09-04-2015, 19:09
Another positive:
Access to a larger pool of event volunteers
Off season events by definition are not official FIRST events; which means there is no chance at an official award and that teams do not approach them in the same way. Even at the most highly esteemed IRI, quite a few teams will not compete with their regular season drive team (even if they haven't graduated, they like to identify potential new drivers), which means that as good as that event is, it is not as competitive as it could be.
Oh so you think teams are playing just for the stuff that says FIRST on them. Then you sir, have missed the boat entirely.
Chief Hedgehog
09-04-2015, 19:12
Detroit. In April. Awesome.
Do you think we could bring along our local Sheriff's Department as escorts from our hotel to the events?
ehochstein
09-04-2015, 19:20
Detroit. In April. Awesome.
d local Shermy do you think we could bring along our local Sheriff's Department as escorts from our hotel to the events?
As Carolyn mentioned earlier in the thread;
While I'd rather it be another location ;) instead of putting out scare statistics, I'd like to publicly ask the FIRST Detroiters what they think of this development? What does Detroit have to offer teams from around the world and out of state? I'm sure they have a unique perspective.
Before we make any assumptions, I would like to hear from a Detroit resident as well. Most of the Michigan FIRSTers are currently at MSC, I'm sure, so it may be a day or two.
orangelight
09-04-2015, 19:21
Detroit. In April. Awesome.
d local Shermy do you think we could bring along our local Sheriff's Department as escorts from our hotel to the events?
It's not that bad.
efoote868
09-04-2015, 19:21
Oh so you think teams are playing just for the stuff that says FIRST on them. Then you sir, have missed the boat entirely.
In 2005, I drove my team's robot at IRI for one match. It was an amazing experience, I'm glad it happened but it was not in the best interest of my team for that competition. I was terrible, we lost the match. It was an opportunity that my team could NOT afford to give me at a regional or a championship event because the stakes are much higher and the cost per match that much more.
If everyone on my team that wanted a turn was allowed one, I can only imagine there are other teams that do similarly at off season events.
I don't think my team missed the boat entirely that year, I think they got it right.
In 2005, I drove my team's robot at IRI for one match. It was an amazing experience, I'm glad it happened but it was not in the best interest of my team for that competition. I was terrible, we lost the match. It was an opportunity that my team could NOT afford to give me at a regional or a championship event because the stakes are much higher and the cost per match that much more.
If everyone on my team that wanted a turn was allowed one, I can only imagine there are other teams that do similarly at off season events.
I don't think my team missed the boat entirely that year, I think they got it right.
No you misunderstood my post. You think that just calling a 2nd event a "FIRST Championship" will make teams want to win it more; I believe it will not. Teams fight tooth and nail to win the current World Championship, not because it's FIRST's, but because of the prestige it holds amongst the community.
popnbrown
09-04-2015, 19:30
It sounds like a big grievance is the fact that the competitive nature of FRC is removed.
Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I was never initially attracted to FRC because of its competitive nature, nor do I try to attract students to my FIRST team because of its competitive nature.
My team has arguably a terrible robot this year, by competition standards. This however has no bearing on whether my team was a success or not, and while it does have some bearing in certain students' minds, I choose to actively not let it.
The reason I am attracted to FIRST is because of the ideal that inspiration can be attained without winning. The reason I am attracted to FIRST is not that they want to become a sport, but that they want to add an addendum to the meaning of sport.
I realize not everyone feels this way, and yes it potentially will isolate some people. But I implore everyone to truly consider what the core underlying value of this program is.
I ultimately side with some of the folks here that feel that we all need to finish venting and re-group in a few weeks. If you choose to leave FIRST or not, remember that we are ultimately here trying to inspire students from all different backgrounds that not only STEM is a great opportunity, but that a little inspiration (in whatever form) can go a long way.
I want to say some of us on our team are absolute "Chezy" fanboys and forever will want to strive to be at their level whether we play with them, see them, or not
efoote868
09-04-2015, 19:34
No you misunderstood my post. You think that just calling a 2nd event a "FIRST Championship" will make teams want to win it more; I believe it will not. Teams fight tooth and nail to win the current World Championship, not because it's FIRST's, but because of the prestige it holds amongst the community.
I think the size of the event will make it prestigious even if the top 10% of the teams are not there; I don't see anyone able to organize a 400+ team event in the off-season.
I think the size of the event will make it prestigious even if the top 10% of the teams are not there; I don't see anyone able to organize a 400+ team event in the off-season.
....no, thats not how it works.
mman1506
09-04-2015, 19:39
I think it's concerning that FIRST would release Recycle Rush, probably the least accessible game for low/middle tier teams in the last couple of years and then talk about how inclusive they are.
My team has arguably a terrible robot this year, by competition standards. This however has no bearing on whether my team was a success or not, and while it does have some bearing in certain students' minds, I choose to actively not let it.[/SIZE]
Your students care about achieving victory, but since you don't care, you conclude that it doesn't matter for your team? Is the program for you, or for your students?
Most people who say "winning doesn't matter" have not won enough to have a balanced opinion on the issue.
Personally I don't think that the District > DCMP > Super Regional > CMP is a sustainable proposition. CMP would become a competition of the "rich and retired". Yes district events reduce the cost for some teams while greatly increasing it for others. Depending on where you live in relation to the district events or previous regionals and whether they are Fri-Sat or Sat-Sun events it means that your time away from work or school can stay the same or possibly go up. Traveling to DCMP can cost similar to going to a second Regional but less than half of the teams currently do so.
I think the longer term solution is a District > Regional CMP > World CMP path. My proposal would be that we still define and run the individual districts as they do now however instead of advancing the top team to a DCMP they advance to the RCMP and from there teams advance to WCMP. The cost to the teams that advance to the RCMP can go up or down vs the DCMP depending on where they live of course but overall it is more sustainable economically and from a volunteer and time away aspect. More teams get to experience a Championship event and there is still one WCMP event.
Because I do agree that experiencing a CMP type event is very beneficial I'd propose that in each district there are a number of reserved lottery spots to move on to the RCMP. If you advance on merit you aren't eligible for a lottery spot for say 3-4 years and if you advance on that lottery slot again you aren't eligible for another in say another 3-4 years. I'd propose that a RCMP would include the FLL and FTC programs like CMP currently does and have say 200 FRC teams at each of the 3-5 RCMPs. You would get more teams to a CMP experience and they wouldn't only be the ones that could afford the entry fees, travel costs and time off on a regular basis like I fear that a D > DCMP > SR > CMP system would. I'm not sure where I stand on giving lottery slots away at the RCMP to go to CMP.
MrRoboSteve
09-04-2015, 19:47
This thread on city-data (yes, they refer to themselves on the board as CD) discusses perceptions around safety in Detroit, with input from those who live there: http://www.city-data.com/forum/detroit/2313467-detroit-safety-5.html
This site contains a pretty exhaustive list of things to do in Detroit: http://www.visitdetroit.com/things-to-do-in-detroit
ehochstein
09-04-2015, 19:48
Your students care about achieving victory, but since you don't care, you conclude that it doesn't matter for your team? Is the program for you, or for your students?
Most people who say "winning doesn't matter" have not won enough to have a balanced opinion on the issue.
http://www3.usfirst.org/aboutus/vision
Where does it say "win"?
In my humble opinion, we all win if our students are inspired to be science and technology leaders by mentoring these students in programs that celebrate the learning of these skills.
You don't have to win to gain inspiration.
indubitably
09-04-2015, 19:49
Your students care about achieving victory, but since you don't care, you conclude that it doesn't matter for your team? Is the program for you, or for your students?
Most people who say "winning doesn't matter" have not won enough to have a balanced opinion on the issue.
I'm pretty sure he was just trying to say that he focuses on his team's successes (which are abundant) as opposed to their failures. 5125 won a regional last year and attended the FIRST Championship. Certainly competitive success is a goal for the team but they are not only defined by it.
You don't have to win to gain inspiration.
Corollary: Victory produces more inspiration.
Of course students can be inspired if they don't win anything. If they do win, they'll become more motivated, more willing to learn, and more confident. My personal experience, at least.
Ian Curtis
09-04-2015, 19:56
http://www3.usfirst.org/aboutus/vision
Where does it say "win"?
Our mission is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders, by engaging them in exciting mentor-based programs that build science, engineering and technology skills, that inspire innovation, and that foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication, and leadership.
How do you have leadership without winning?
orangemoore
09-04-2015, 19:59
Your students care about achieving victory, but since you don't care, you conclude that it doesn't matter for your team? Is the program for you, or for your students?
Most people who say "winning doesn't matter" have not won enough to have a balanced opinion on the issue.
How do you know his students care about victory?
I grew up about 40 minutes outside of Detroit. I can say for a fact that riverwalk area of downtown (including Cobo Hall, Hart Plaza, and the Reniessiance Center is extremely safe. I've specifically worked with charitable organizations to provide food and other necessities to the homeless people in this area. These are the people that are too docile and/or weak to actually survive in the homeless shelters, which are much rougher areas. Any reasonably sized group would be safe near the river, even at night.
ehochstein
09-04-2015, 20:01
Corollary: Victory produces more inspiration.
Of course students can be inspired if they don't win anything. If they do win, they'll become more motivated, more willing to learn, and more confident. My personal experience, at least.
As a student who went to Championships in 2009, I was inspired by winning the 10,000 Lakes Regional but I was more inspired by attending FIRST Championships. We only won 1 match while at FIRST Championships but it is an experience I'll never forget and it is the reason I am still here today.
FIRST Championships is inspiring and the more students, mentors, parents and volunteers I can get there to experience it, the better.
With the champs placed in this way teams from Michigan and Ontario especially will see the same teams at the regional and worlds.
Look at my teams situation. We are about 15 minutes away from team 4039, 25 minutes away from 1114, 45 minutes away from 3683, 865, 1241, and 2852 and no lie I can see the 2056 shop from outside my window as I type this.
So if my team will ever get the opportunity to go to worlds it will feel almost like the Waterloo or Windsor regional. We would not have the chance to meet teams from the south. It would just be the same teams that we have been seeing for the last 5 or so weeks.
So just like everyone else in this thread I will have to put in my negative vote. If there is any way to not have the dual champs happen I would love to see that
bscharles
09-04-2015, 20:02
How do you have leadership without winning?
I definitely don't think "winning" in the sense of being the best team at an event is necessary for leadership. There are hundreds of teams out their, mine included, that produced many outstanding student leaders, without so much as winning a single award at a competition, not to mention winning the event. But they were passionate about their team, their peers, and the FIRST program, which is what made them outstanding leaders.
Andrew Lawrence
09-04-2015, 20:08
You don't need to win to inspire students in the same way that you don't need recycling containers to score high in a match in 2015.
Could it be done without? Sure, but it makes accomplishing the goal a helluva lot easier, and is arguably more effective.
How do you know his students care about victory?
He said it in his post.
As a student who went to Championships in 2009, I was inspired by winning the 10,000 Lakes Regional but I was more inspired by attending FIRST Championships. We only won 1 match while at FIRST Championships but it is an experience I'll never forget and it is the reason I am still here today.
FIRST Championships is inspiring and the more students, mentors, parents and volunteers I can get there to experience it, the better.
As a student who went to Championships in 2012, I was inspired by attending.
As a student who went to Championships in 2013 and in 2014, I was inspired by attending but I was more inspired by winning my team's division and walking onto Einstein. I was inspired by knowing that my and my team's efforts culminated in robots that were among the best in the world, and that I could compete against the best in the world. Now FIRST wants to throw away half those teams, and make victory half-hollow.
My team's loss in the finals of 2014 was bitter to me. But it would have been bitterer still if we had won, only to know that an alliance superior to ours was elsewhere, separated from doing battle with us by a bureaucracy grown fat, greedy, and myopic from decades of holding a monopoly on high-level robotics competition.
Winning, the experience of winning, isn't crucial. If it was, the only teams who would have any ground to be disappointed in the changes would be the actual winners of the north and south championship events
Winning, the objective, the thing you can point to and say "See that? We want to do that. What can we do to make our program better, to improve our chances at that?" is what has grown FIRST from 28 teams in a high school gym to where it is today. As a result, every team which uses it to drive them forward has a right to be upset. It's a proven motivator, and we should do our best to preserve it as a part of our program.
Ian Curtis
09-04-2015, 20:21
I definitely don't think "winning" in the sense of being the best team at an event is necessary for leadership. There are hundreds of teams out their, mine included, that produced many outstanding student leaders, without so much as winning a single award at a competition, not to mention winning the event. But they were passionate about their team, their peers, and the FIRST program, which is what made them outstanding leaders.
I agree you don't have to win an award or an event, or even get picked for eliminations. But, I think you do have to care about winning and you've got pick up some wins along the way (sometimes those wins are simply "We scored a point!"), which was the original poster's point.
Kevin Sevcik
09-04-2015, 20:23
If winning creates more inspiration, isn't that an argument for the 2 WCMP model? Twice the winners is twice the inspiration.
If winning creates more inspiration, isn't that an argument for the 2 WCMP model? Twice the winners is twice the inspiration.
In that case, let's take it to the logical extreme, and declare everyone a winner on Kickoff day. That would work, right?
No. Two championships cheapens the experience. As has been said many, many times already in this thread.
Kevin Sevcik
09-04-2015, 20:30
I agree you don't have to win an award or an event, or even get picked for eliminations. But, I think you do have to care about winning and you've got pick up some wins along the way (sometimes those wins are simply "We scored a point!"), which was the original poster's point.I'm pretty sure leadership just requires a goal to lead towards. For some that may be winning in various forms. For others that might be the whole learning, inspiring, engineering thing. Karthik's Game Strategy presentation points out you have to have a goal to work towards and he pretty clearly notes that it doesn't have to be winning. It could be "designing a cool robot" or "having the best autonomous". Winning competitions is an obvious choice, but it's not the only one.
Unless you're defining winning as "achieving your goals". In which case I agree that winning is necessary for effective leadership. That's probably not the definition we're talking about here, though.
In that case, let's take it to the logical extreme, and declare everyone a winner on Kickoff day. That would work, right?
No. Two championships cheapens the experience.
This is basically forced mediocrity.
My team was upset after we were selected in the second round and getting bounced in QF's after being in SF's the week prior (as third wheel) against a deeper talent pool.... knowing we were highly sought after by nearly all of the strongest alliances in the third round as certain picks. I had to explain to them why we did not want to be a third wheel as our ticket to the worlds we take where we are picked second round and its on us to win if we are able..they all understood, not sure how I explain the two championship model as not everyone can be a winner...hard work and innovation should count....entry should be earned and should be difficult. Rather sit as a second versus in as a third when your stats say you are a truly a second otherwise. I as a mentor knew going in we needed to win one of the regionals we registered for, we didn't and that's 100% on us to do better next year or gain entry with one of the two remaining non-competitive methods or as a long shot wildcard...it should be hard. With failure comes significant improvement.
This is making 1000's of kids third wheels...by design and its too easy. Its good enough championship x2...in 2017. The world does not operate that way. Where's the life lesson for the kids? Its tough out there and FIRST should reflect that challenge every chance they get rather than seeking "profit" and "mediocrity" that teaches nothing good, in an organization promoting non-profit and STEM.
Kevin Sevcik
09-04-2015, 20:31
In that case, let's take it to the logical extreme, and declare everyone a winner on Kickoff day. That would work, right?
No. Two championships cheapens the experience. As has been said many, many times already in this thread.I understand that two championships cheapens the experience for you. I would like to note that this is not a universal truth, as has also been said many times in this thread.
the_godfaubel
09-04-2015, 20:32
The negative part about this change to me, and likely many others, is the fact that the experience just won't be the same. Someone brought up that they would pretty much be seeing many of the same teams that they have been competing with for the prior two months. Where is the fun in that?
The exciting part about Championships, for me, was getting to collaborate and talk with teams from around the country and the world. With this change, you lose a lot of that. Being a college student and beginning my engineering journey, I now enjoy talking with teams about why they came to the design choices they made and how it could be used elsewhere to benefit society. I know for a fact that I was looking forward to seeing some teams at the Championships this year to ask about these very things. Under the new plan, I would not be to talk with some of the teams that I have on my list to talk to because of the "geographical boundaries" that would occur.
I really don't know why FIRST has decided to split the Championships, especially after the excitement of last year. Maybe they got too caught up in the Recognition part of FIRST and forgot that the teams were already doing a great job of spreading knowledge of STEM around the world.
MarkMyWords
09-04-2015, 20:32
This is now the longest non-game thread on Chief Delphi.
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