Future First Championship News

[MysterE]

From: http://www.usfirst.org/aboutus/2017-first-championship-announcement

We are writing today with some truly exciting news!

More than 25 years ago, FIRST® became a game changer in the STEM world.

Over the years, we’ve built an incredible culture with our K-12 FIRST Progression of Programs that celebrates kids’ accomplishments through high-quality, inspiring, life-changing experiences, the culmination of which is our FIRST Championship.

Today, we are proud to announce that FIRST is about to change the game again, for the better! Beginning in 2017, we are expanding the FIRST Championship by bringing our Sport for the Mind™ to two FIRST Championship host cities.

Why are we so excited about this expansion? We all know how transformative the FIRST experience can be. We want more kids to feel the passion and power that comes with being a part of FIRST Championship events.

In addition, by hosting Championships in multiple cities, we seek to reduce the travel distances and associated travel expenses for a significant number of our teams.

We continue to witness substantial growth of interest in our mission, our programs, and our annual Championship. Far beyond what we can currently accommodate, a growing number of young people are eager to participate and compete in our iconic, international celebration; yet due to space limitations, and sometimes travel costs, only a small fraction of teams can participate in the FIRST Championship.

Therefore, in 2017, FIRST will host two Championship events on subsequent weekends, still celebrating our full Progression of Programs at each – one event in Houston at the George R. Brown Convention Center, the Toyota Center (home of the Houston Rockets) and Minute Maid Park (home of the Houston Astros) April 19-22, 2017, followed by a second event the following weekend (April 26-29, 2017) in St. Louis.

Beginning in 2018, our dual Championship will be celebrated in Houston, as described above, April 18-21, 2018 and on the second weekend in Detroit at the Cobo Center and Ford

Field (home of the Detroit Lions), April 25-28, 2018. This alignment will continue for 2019 and 2020.

FIRST is the oldest and largest student robotics program in the world, and now we can deliver the FIRST Championship experience to thousands more young people worldwide! This expansion increases the capacity of the FIRST Championship by more than 100 percent compared to 2014, allowing us to better align Championship capacity with on-going team growth. With two locations, many more teams will be able to access a Championship event without air travel.

We know there are lots of questions for us to answer. We will be working hard on many details in the months to come, and as that process takes place, we’ll share additional information, so please stay tuned.

As previously announced, between now and 2017, we will continue to hold an expanded, Olympic-style Championship throughout downtown St. Louis, and we look forward to seeing many of you there.

We cannot thank the city of St. Louis, the Volunteers, the Mayor, and the Governor of the state of Missouri enough for all that they have done for our organization since 2011. We look forward to hosting wonderful Championship events in this city for the next three years, and we know that the city and all of its FIRST participants will remain an important part of the FIRST family in the future.

Thank you for the critical role you play at FIRST. Thank you for helping us open the door to the next chapter in which FIRST can reach more students and change more lives around the world.

[BBray_T1296]

Video announcement (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXyaWwjwFto) from Don Bossi

[Wetzel]

2 Woodie Flowers Award winners!

[AdamHeard]

Why stop here? Cancel all regionals, cancel all districts, let's have 12 (or more) World Championships!

Better yet, skip the event, and crown every team a world champion!

[PayneTrain]

Some people would say this is different.

That is one word for it.

[bscharles]

This just feels weird. It's not really "the" world championship anymore. If a team wins, can they say the were "the" world champions? Or are they just "the world champions among the teams in the regions close to them"?

[JohnSchneider]

Splitting FRC into 2 events does more damage to its integrity as a sport than anything else possibly could. This absolutely cannot be the case if they want people to take it seriously.

[JohnFogarty]

The location choices are lnteresting. not sure it's going to save my team any money. Both Houston and Detriot are out of the question in terms of driving distance from SC. I miss having the championship in my backyard.

[Michael Corsetto]

"Presenting your 2017 Half-World Champions" doesn't have quite the same ring to it...

[smistthegreat]

If FIRST wants more FRC teams to experience a "Championship" event, expand the district system. Let the bulk of teams get their "Championship" experience at the district championship level. Keep one central location for a world championship. I really don't like this.

[Thad House]

This makes no sense. The biggest groups of teams are spread from minnesota to NE, and then on the West Coast. Why put an event in Texas, which is much further away. If you are going to add a second champs, put it west of the rockies somewhere. That way you actually save teams money. Or just keep 1 championship event...

[cgmv123]

http://www.usfirst.org/aboutus/2017-first-championship-announcement

Future FIRST Championship Q&A

Where and when will the FIRST Championship be held in the coming years?

2015: St. Louis, MO: April 22-25, 2015

2016: St. Louis, MO: April 27-30, 2016

2017: Houston, TX: April 19-22, 2017
St. Louis, MO: April 26-29, 2017
2018: Houston, TX: April 18-21, 2018
Detroit, MI: April 25-28, 2018
2019: Houston, TX: April 17-20, 2019
Detroit, MI: April 24-27, 2019
2020: Houston, TX: April 15-18, 2020
Detroit, MI: April 29- May 2, 2020

Why is FIRST holding multiple Championships?

FIRST knows how transformative the FIRST Championship experience can be for students (and for Coaches, Mentors, Volunteers, Sponsors, etc.) and we want more kids to feel the passion and power that comes with being a part of a FIRST Championship.

By expanding to multiple cities for Championship, our goal is to grow capacity and enable more young people, across all of our full Progression of Programs, to experience the thrill of the FIRST Championship.

In addition, by hosting the Championship events in two separate cities, we seek to reduce the travel distances and associated travel expenses for a significant number of teams.

Which Championship will my team attend? Can we go to both?

While FIRST appreciates teams’ enthusiasm for attending either or both Championship celebrations, our goal is to enable as many teams and students as possible to experience a FIRST Championship. Based on geographic location, teams from all four programs will be assigned to attend one of the events.

Each Championship will serve a still-to-be-defined geographic region in an effort to minimize travel distance and travel cost, while balancing team attendance at both events.

Will there now be two sets of Championship Awards and recognition?

Our most prestigious honors, such as the FIRST Robotics Competition Chairman’s Award; FIRST Tech Challenge Inspire Award; FIRST LEGO League Champion’s Award, the Dean’s List Award and other top honors, will be replicated and celebrated at each event - while the FIRST LEGO League Global Innovation Award and the FIRST Future Innovator Award (for FRC and FTC) will be given outside of the events. Finalists for these two awards will be announced at both events.

I support multiple teams across various FIRST Programs. Will they all be going to the same Championship?

In addition to qualification based on performance or ranking, FIRST will determine what teams attend which event based on geographical location of the team and by balancing team capacity at both events. Hence, it is highly likely that the geography for FTC teams at a given Championship will align with the geographies for FLL and FRC teams at the same event. However, we are still in the process of determining those geographic alignments for each Championship.

For the FIRST Tech Challenge (FTC) Program, how will the new Championship model impact the four FTC Super Regionals?

FIRST is working out all of the details and options associated with the continued high growth of the FTC program. We will review capacity at both the Super Regionals and the Championship level before making a final decision. FTC expects accelerated growth in the coming years with the recently announced Android™ based, Qualcomm powered communications and control platform. The new system will be demonstrated at the FIRST Championship in St. Louis, April 22-25, 2015

What activities will be happening in each of the venues in each of the Championship host cities?

In 2015 and 2016, FIRST will host an expanded Olympic-style Championship throughout downtown St. Louis. In 2017, the St. Louis Championship will be similarly sized to the 2014 Championship held there

For the Houston Championship, Opening Ceremonies will be held in the Toyota Center, home of the Houston Rockets. Competition matches for all programs will be held in the George R. Brown Convention Center, followed by Closing Ceremonies in Minute Maid Park, home of the Houston Astros, which has a retractable roof.

For the Detroit Championship, Opening and Closing Ceremonies will be held in Ford Field, an enclosed domed stadium, which is home to the Detroit Lions. Competition matches for all programs will be held in Cobo Center.

Each city has been chosen with our visitors in mind and each location – St. Louis, Houston, and Detroit has many opportunities for outdoor and recreational activities, as well as arts and cultural experiences, and simply sightseeing. We invite you to watch for detailed descriptions on the FIRST website as the dates come closer.

In the meantime, take a look at the tourist attractions as detailed on each of these visitor websites:
http://explorestlouis.com/visit-explore/discover/25-things-to-do-in-st-louis/
http://www.visitdetroit.com/
http://www.visithoustontexas.com/things-to-do/

We realize this is only a small subset of the questions you might have. As we move forward, we welcome your questions and suggestions, and will keep you informed as more details become available. Please send your questions to customerservice@usfirst.org.

[Joe G.]

As we try to improve the quality of our team, we spend a lot of time looking at the teams who have built effective programs, and what makes them tick. And a common trend, perhaps above all others, is a relentless pursuit of being the best in the world. It builds dominant, inspiring robots, and it builds quality experiences for students.

Not exactly thrilled that the motivation that drives the programs which move FIRST forward has been taken down a couple notches.

Whatever happened to that "super regional" model which was floating around for a while? I imagined that these events would rise to a prestige and experience quality level near that of the championship, while maintaining a central goal to work towards?

[JohnFogarty]

I'm confused why they aren't implementing super regional events like FTC does. 2 WC events is going to be harmful to the overall quality of this program.

[Wetzel]

Who is going to be the first team to be a true World Champion in the 2 championship era by winning both?

[Pauline Tasci]

I think this take's a lot away from what Champs is all about. Your competing with the best of the best in the entire world in one place. You get to meet with thousands of people who love FIRST the same way you do, you get to meet your friends from different coasts and trade shirts, you have the ability to be the WORLD champions, and get to see those robots that have been winning all their events. Splitting it into 2 different champs would eliminate all of that.
There would be no world champions, you would never meet your favorite team on the other side of the world, the competition would go down severely.
This just does not seem like a good idea and I would LOVE to hear the discussion when they decided this was a good idea.

Because right now I believe the cons are out weighing the pros.

[Breakaway3937]

I do not like this one bit. With the incorporation of the districts, that should be used to reduce the number of teams that qualify for Worlds while giving teams an additional exciting event. This idea is going to kill the excitement and climax of the "World Championships". I really hope that FIRST reconsiders the structure of this or adds one more event for the Champions of the two events to compete against one another. I have been a huge supporter of FIRST and what they have done for students around the world. While the impact on the students will not be changed, the competitive environment will definitely be altered and greatly tarnished.

[gafftron]

Who is going to be the first team to be a true World Champion in the 2 championship era by winning both?

FIRST actually dictates which Championship you go to and you're only allowed to go to one.

I feel like this is a step backwards for the program. More teams should be going into the district model with district championships so teams get the experience that way with the best of the best moving on to the singular world championship. Just my two cents...

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Really sad news. I get that we are trying to reach more students, but this seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[smistthegreat]

"While FIRST appreciates teams’ enthusiasm for attending either or both Championship celebrations, our goal is to enable as many teams and students as possible to experience a FIRST Championship. Based on geographic location, teams from all four programs will be assigned to attend one of the events."

Does this mean that my team, being closer to Detroit, will no longer get an opportunity to compete with every single team that's geographically closer to Houston? I think this is a terrible idea. Part of the draw of CMP is it being a gathering of friends and competitors from around the country and the world.

These new events aren't world championships. They're glorified "super-regionals."

[BBray_T1296]

This poses some interesting questions. Will one championship event be "better" to attend than the other? If one of the main points is to reduce travel costs, it is an easy statement that any teams from Texas who qualify for Worlds will go to the Houston CMP, while anyone from Canada or FiM will probably find themselves in Detroit. I feel like this could produce an OPR discrepency. Perhaps this could be leveled by the divvying of teams such as MAR and West Coast teams whose costs may be similar between both events.

Also, will there be a "grand champion" matchup where the Houston champion and STL/Detroit champion alliances face off for an ultimate crown?

I feel like this division sets a precedent for future-proofing the whole competition organization. Sudden increase in teams in Europe? Put a CMP there. Number of teams on the West Coast quadruple? Put a CMP there. It is possible that this introduces another tier of competition where, like all the districts feed their district champs, those district champs feed poly-district champs, which ultimately feed another, higher WCMP level.

[Mackenzie W]

If they're going that far north, does this mean Toronto might actually get the Championships at some point? I really have no clue what to say about this, other than that this means IRI and similar offseason events will be determining actual world champions now.

[JVN]

"Presenting your 2017 Half-World Champions" doesn't have quite the same ring to it...

"One of the important things about FIRST and maybe what separates us from other sports is that we're an inclusive organization we're about not about picking a winner at the expense of others but celebrating everybody's accomplishments and success."

[lynca]

I'm certain FIRST will be listening to teams and their ideas on how to define the new championship structure.

Keep the feedback constructive and let's help grow the program to new heights.

[smurfgirl]

In addition, by hosting Championships in multiple cities, we seek to reduce the travel distances and associated travel expenses for a significant number of our teams.

I don't see how hosting two Championships in the middle of the country reduces travel distances or costs for the huge population of teams along the two coasts.

I'm not sure I really understand the motivation behind this decision.

[JohnSchneider]

It says in the release that teams are region locked. How is geographically restricting teams fostering exchange of ideas between teams from different states or even countries.

Now when my students want to go study and look at an 1114 or 254 robot they may never get the chance? Ridiculous.

[lucas.alvarez96]

Our most prestigious honors, such as the FIRST Robotics Competition Chairman’s Award; FIRST Tech Challenge Inspire Award; FIRST LEGO League Champion’s Award, the Dean’s List Award and other top honors, will be replicated and celebrated at each event

So does that mean that two teams will be inducted yearly into the HoF? Will there also be 6 winners, and like others have said before, 2 "half-world champs"? Considering the expansion of FIRST and its exponential growth, evidenced by the creation of even more teams every year, it seems to be a good move, but are the awards and winners being picked fairly and correctly?

...maybe there'll be an Einstein regional... :ahh: :ahh:

[pwnageNick]

This is also almost guaranteed to conflict the VEX World Championship nearly every year from now on unless VEX bends over backwards to not conflict, which they already went out of their way to do this year with only one FIRST Championship event.

[JeffersonMartin]

This move makes absolutely no sense to me. Splitting the teams up into two events will, in my opinion, do the opposite of inspire people. And don't even get me started on crowning two world champions.

[Travis Hoffman]

"IRI - Where True Champions are Crowned"

[JohnFogarty]

I don't see how hosting two Championships in the middle of the country reduces travel distances or costs for the huge population of teams along the two coasts.

I'm not sure I really understand the motivation behind this decision.

This

[MechEng83]

Will we only ever get to see hall of fame teams from our half-world now?

On the plus side, this could make IRI the "true" championship.

[efoote868]

Who is going to be the first team to be a true World Champion in the 2 championship era by winning both?

Winner of IRI of course. :p

[PayneTrain]

What I will say is that FIRST recognized there is a problem with Championships. It's an event every team should go to at least once because just being there is a transformative experience, and by the time we move to this format, probably around 1/6 of teams would have had a chance to go to champs at the FRC level.

That's ignoring the fact that the other programs have no room at all to invite teams to compete in such a great environment. I am not convinced this was the best solution that could be executed, but we as a program need to keep trying new things together and figuring out what works and what doesn't together.

[cadandcookies]

Well, this will be interesting.

[dodar]

FIRST, April Fool's Day was 8 days ago. This isn't funny.

I'm sorry, but this is honestly the dumbest idea FIRST has ever put forth; yes, even more so than Lunacy.

[mklinker]

"One of the important things about FIRST and maybe what separates us from other sports is that we're an inclusive organization we're about not about picking a winner at the expense of others but celebrating everybody's accomplishments and success."

Amen.....Is it really about the championship or is it more about the experience?

Having just agonized over declining a wait list position for 2015 this excites me very much to know that I have a better shot of having my team attend championships in the future!

[Eugene Fang]

"Two championships reduces travel costs for teams."

So they put one north and one south instead of east/west? Go figure.

[cgmv123]

Most of my thoughts have been expressed by others, but it's interesting how FIRST didn't even see how this year's Championship with its new model went before announcing this change.

FIRST, April Fool's Day was 8 days ago. This isn't funny.

Yup.

[Thad House]

FIRST, April Fool's Day was 8 days ago. This isn't funny.

I'm sorry, but this is honestly the dumbest idea FIRST has ever put forth; yes, even more so than Recycle Rush.

FTFY

[Tom Bottiglieri]

So....

Inaugural Vex Pro Competition in 2017?!?

[dodar]

Amen.....Is it really about the championship or is it more about the experience?

Having just agonized over declining a wait list position for 2015 this excites me very much to know that I have a better shot of having my team attend championships in the future!

How would you feel if you went to "a" championship that didnt have 254, 1114, 148, 987, 118, 624? I would feel cheated on the experience.

[AdamHeard]

So....

Inaugural Vex Pro Competition in 2017?!?

We're in.

[Sparky3D]

So....

Inaugural Vex Pro Competition in 2017?!?

I'm listening... :D

[James1902]

My favorite part of the Championship event is the chance to see robots and teams from around the world. This move, to my eye, seems to dilute and degrade the Championship experience instead of opening it up to more teams. I'm not sure that splitting the FIRST community in two is a good idea.

And ditto all the mentions of two world champion alliances, it was difficult enough trying to explain splitting a title three ways.

[Boltman]

Can we say money grab? Its like the NFL expanding playoffs...lets have over half the teams make it and make more money.
Its sickening. People in FRC should respond to this complete farce.

[Steven Donow]

From a, 'response to the growth of FIRST programs' this change makes sense.

But from the FRC perspective, it makes absolutely no sense.

But it's such a tricky issue with the areas that have absolutely no easy way to switch to districts in the time being.

We'll see how this plays out, but I'd assume everything's already set and booked...not the best way to go about this...FIRST should have proposed the idea of splitting Championship geographically (ie. when they announced expanded 2015 champs or continued STL champs), wait for the reaction, then proceed from there. If they announced the venues, then clearly they're at a phase where legally, this can't be changed.

Unless they (and please, please, please let this be the end solution) split championship by program. Don't make FRC (FIRST's premier program) suffer it's own growth due to other FIRST programs growing.

I don't view the awards change as 'giving every team a championship', but I'm not a fan of the huge amount of awards that will be given out, ie. two CCAs.

Also, as much as we're negative about it here on the FRC-side, I'm curious to see what FTC/FLL people think about it, because their opinions do matter; it's a FIRST-focused change

[dodar]

FIRST Championship 2020 Motto: You get a championship, you get a championship, you get a championship!

Maybe FIRST is trying to slowly announce Oprah is taking over for Dean.

[Drakxii]

Wow... what a terrible plan. Why not just go the FTC route with super regional then champs? Also while I get the point of Detroit with all of the teams in MI and Quebec, but Houston? Really? Not a west coast city like LA or SD or Seattle?

Edit "Constructive Feedback":

Why not have 3 super regionals at Detroit, LA and Orlando with ~240 teams each. Then using district like point system send ~120 teams to a real world champs in Houston.

[KeeganP]

I wasn't at Champs last year, but I was in 2011 -- and i do remember it being very crowded. And this year, there are even more teams. I think that making a change is good. That said, I'm not sure this is the right way to do it.

The district system is great because it allows you to go to "regionals," and then a (district) championship. I like this system because it gives teams an opportunity to compete multiple times, and then attend a championship event, which could qualify them for the FRC World Championship.

What I don't like about this new layout, is that FIRST is now moving into an even more district-like system, but without the championship part. We now have the winners of district championships (and regionals) competing at two "Super Regionals" that have no ending championship. You instead end up with a set of winners from different sides of the globe, and don't know if 1114 or 254 (just an example) really is better than the other in a given year.

What FIRST should do, if they plan to follow through with this new format, is move these regional championships slightly sooner, and have a true world championship event afterward, even if it means fewer teams. I know I, and my team, are inspired by seeing the greatest robots each year competing, even if it is from home. The world champs could be smaller, but with all the presentation sessions streamed online. I feel that FIRST could embrace technology and really make the championships even better for all teams. Just because your team isn't competing at champs doesn't mean you can't learn a lot from watching it all -- and we're at a point today where we can use technology to bring all the action back home to teams very easily.

(Sorry this got so long...)

[Wetzel]

Can we say money grab? Its like the NFL expanding playoffs...lets have over half the teams make it and make more money.
Its sickening. People in FRC should respond to this farce.

If you can explain how hosting two events with more teams will make more money, I'm interested.

[notmattlythgoe]

I umm...I just...I don't get it...

[Boltman]

If you can explain how hosting two events with more teams will make more money, I'm interested.

$5000 a pop x 2 + the hotel kickbacks...completely a money grab. Still puts coast teams one high expense status. One of the so-called championship events is going to be the ugly step-child but yet the fees are the same..where do international teams go? The best one.

[AdamHeard]

I'm really surprised the FIRST apologists aren't out in force on this one.

Or are even they disillusioned by this?

[Cory]

If you can explain how hosting two events with more teams will make more money, I'm interested.

Pretty simple... I'm sure FIRST profited from Champs last year, at 400 teams. Run a second version of Champs and you're profiting a second time.

[MrRoboSteve]

Some things to think about.

1. An event can get too big for any one city to support, hotel-wise.

2. Recruiting enough volunteers for our style of event in one city can be an issue. I know I've been hit up several times to sign up to volunteer at champs.

3. Having >1 champs is consistent with FIRST's mission around reach

4. This could be a first step toward a multi-tier playoff model leading back to a single championship in the future.

5. There's nothing about this that can't be changed back to a single event in 2021. At that point, though, you'll have teams used to 1000ish slots for Champs and complaints that it reduces access.

6. Having 2 events does increase the number of teams within driving distance, particularly the DET event. The west coast would not be a logical second location, if you are using driving distance as your metric. If the model is successful, I'd expect a championship in California to follow. Houston is a curious choice for the second location if you use transportation costs as a metric; I'm wondering whether there were facility availability reasons for that, as 2017 not very far away in the world of venue scheduling.

7. I could see 1,000 spots for champs in 2017 (600 in STL and 400 in DET)

8. I'm glad that they're willing to try something new, even if in the end it turns out to be less successful than expected.

[ehochstein]

This change benefits FLL and FTC more than FRC. In my opinion, this will be a good change because it will allow for more FLL and FTC teams to attend. The number of FRC teams able to attend FIRST Championships is outrageous compared to the number of FLL and FTC teams combined.

[PayneTrain]

I'm really surprised the FIRST apologists aren't out in force on this one.

Or are even they disillusioned by this?

They may be at events since you know, they made this announcement on day 1 of three of the five biggest non-CMP events on the FRC Calendar.

[Munchskull]

I was waiting for a late April Fools...

This is just not right.

[MrRoboSteve]

$5000 a pop x 2 + the hotel kickbacks...completely a money grab. Still puts coast teams one high expense status.

Can you cite a source for your "hotel kickbacks" statement in regard to the FIRST Champs? I'm curious who is receiving the kickbacks and how much.

[DCA Fan]

You want to burn out key volunteers? This is how you burn out key volunteers.

I don't get the whole "geographic convenience" thing - sounds more like an excuse than an actual fact - my costs, coming from California, certainly won't be going down any. Frankly, if they were shooting for geography, they should've gone east-west.

While I'm excited that more teams will be able to participate, I thought that was what the 8 divisions was for. Did we outgrow that model before it even had a chance to show itself?

[Steven Donow]

I'm really surprised the FIRST apologists aren't out in force on this one.

Or are even they disillusioned by this?

I would argue that I'm fairly often a FIRST-apologist (I enjoyed Aerial Assist from the beginning and don't absolutely hate Recycle Rush...and yes, Schreiber constantly reminds me of the fact), and even I think this is absolutely idiotic.

Also St. Louis/Houston are both much warmer than Detroit =(

[BigJ]

Well, I can only hope that we qualify for the last real world championship (for now)...

[dodar]

They may be at events since you know, they made this announcement on day 1 of three of the five biggest non-CMP events on the FRC Calendar.

Its odd how and when they announced it. Kind of seems to have been tried to slide under the radar of the FIRST community.

[mman1506]

By time we've booked a coach bus, hotel room and insurance the cost difference between going to St.Louis and Detroit isn't huge. Rather than spending resources on creating a 2nd champs FIRST should put those resources into lowering the cost of competing with programs like districts. Would teams really rather go to one event and "half champs" than 2 events, a intermediate champs and full champs?

[bigbeezy]

One of the best parts of Champs this year is that I get to see and compete with my old team. See friends, old mentors, teams I used to compete against. Beginning in 2017, that can't happen...

And why Detroit? Michigan already has a State Championship.

Those that were in Houston in 2003, everything I had heard was it was awful. I wasn't there. Has the area changed much in the past 12 years?

[ehochstein]

Pretty simple... I'm sure FIRST profited from Champs last year, at 400 teams. Run a second version of Champs and you're profiting a second time.

Because a non-profit, profits? Any money that goes into FIRST only benefits FIRST teams and makes the program better. I don't see any issue with FIRST getting more money, they are very transparent in what it is used for.

[mlantry]

So....

Inaugural Vex Pro Competition in 2017?!?

Take my money VEX

[Boltman]

Because a non-profit, profits? Any money that goes into FIRST only benefits FIRST teams and makes the program better. I don't see any issue with FIRST getting more money, they are very transparent in what it is used for.

So you see no issue with providing two diluted events as long as FIRST makes more money??

Its ridiculous the amount of money the average first team needs to raise to go to more than one event including a new diluted championship. Regardless of what the non-profit does with it. There's common sense.

Lower costs if they go this route...yet we all know that will not happen. Someone gets that money sure isn't FRC teams.

[cgmv123]

they are very transparent in what it is used for.

They could be way better about disclosing expenses.

[AlecMataloni]

I hate this.

I hate this so much.

Never have I ever questioned my involvement in this program more than I have now. Taking the community and slicing it in half may have benefits, but they are absolutely outweighed by the negatives. I don't even know where to begin.

I hope this nonsense is short lived. Otherwise, I'll be finding a different program to invest my time in.

[zachrobo1]

Out of the things I have seen in this thread, most people are opposed to this change because of the competition aspect. People like competition, and they want to crown a champion.

That's great, but does that line up with FIRST's vision? I don't think so. If you need a reminder, FIRST's vision is:

"To transform our culture by creating a world where science and technology are celebrated and where young people dream of becoming science and technology leaders."

If that means making it more accessible to more students by making two championships, so be it. From what I've seen, FIRST really isn't very concerned with the drawbacks that this system has in regards to competition. They feel like Champs is a totally unique experience, and the more kids that go experience it, the better they fulfil their mission.

[lynca]

Those that were in Houston in 2003, everything I had heard was it was awful. I wasn't there. Has the area changed much in the past 12 years?

2003 was Reliant Stadium & the astrodome.
2017 will be GRB , Minute Maid & Toyota Center

The hate and anger needs to slow down in this thread. Think constructive not destructive criticism.

[jlmcmchl]

By time we've booked a coach bus, hotel room and insurance the cost difference between going to St.Louis and Detroit isn't huge. Rather than spending resources on creating a 2nd champs FIRST should put those resources into lowering the cost of competing with programs like districts. Would teams really rather go to one event and "half champs" than 3 events and full champs?

There was a blog post before the beginning of the year that released their plan to introduce a wholesome district system by 2017; where every team would participate in the system.

[JohnSchneider]

Some things to think about.

1. An event can get too big for any one city to support, hotel-wise.

2. Recruiting enough volunteers for our style of event in one city can be an issue. I know I've been hit up several times to sign up to volunteer at champs.

3. Having >1 champs is consistent with FIRST's mission around reach

4. This could be a first step toward a multi-tier playoff model leading back to a single championship in the future.

5. There's nothing about this that can't be changed back to a single event in 2021. At that point, though, you'll have teams used to 1000ish slots for Champs and complaints that it reduces access.

6. Having 2 events does increase the number of teams within driving distance, particularly the DET event. The west coast would not be a logical second location, if you are using driving distance as your metric. If the model is successful, I'd expect a championship in California to follow. Houston is a curious choice for the second location if you use transportation costs as a metric; I'm wondering whether there were facility availability reasons for that, as 2017 not very far away in the world of venue scheduling.

7. I could see 1,000 spots for champs in 2017 (600 in STL and 400 in DET)

8. I'm glad that they're willing to try something new, even if in the end it turns out to be less successful than expected.

Then decrease the number of people going to "championship" by adding an intermediary competition. More teams get to experience "moving on against tougher competition" without causing the integrity of the sport to suffer.

[vhcook]

Well, I guess I now understand how the Georgia teams felt when Championships left Atlanta. I'm going to miss being able to go every year as a volunteer and spectator. When I do go it's going to be a lot more expensive and require more vacation days, and I'm going to have to pick which half of the world I want to see playing, since there's no way I can afford the vacation time or the travel costs of going to both.

I really dislike the idea of my team being cut off from half the teams in the world with whatever the geographic border ends up being. We're about equidistant from Detroit and Houston, so I can't guess which way we'll get assigned. There are so many amazing team combinations that will never be possible at a regular-season event again -- for example, the Texas and FIM powerhouses will never see each other before off-season events. I understand that Championships has turned into a city-melter in terms of event logistics/hotel space/etc, and I am somewhat sympathetic to wanting to get more teams to championships, particularly for FTC/FLL; however, I think this is going to reduce the quality of the FRC event substantially.

Initial reaction: :(

[Wetzel]

Pretty simple... I'm sure FIRST profited from Champs last year, at 400 teams. Run a second version of Champs and you're profiting a second time.

I was under the impression that they didn't, but I'm running from anecdotes and conversations rather than hard data.

[Eugene Fang]

Taking the community and slicing it in half may have benefits, but they are absolutely outweighed by the negatives. I don't even know where to begin.

This. I don't always attend champs, but when I do, I look forward to catching up with familiar faces from across the country. With this change, I would have to choose seeing one half over the other each year.

[Hallry]

I would much rather have gone the Super Regional --> World Championship route...

http://i.imgur.com/oSNK90t.png

[jwfoss]

So basically... FRC now stands for FIRST Robotics Convention

[Munchskull]

Can we start a petition against this?

[BigJ]

Out of the things I have seen in this thread, most people are opposed to this change because of the competition aspect. People like competition, and they want to crown a champion.

That's great, but does that line up with FIRST's vision? I don't think so. If you need a reminder, FIRST's vision is:

"To transform our culture by creating a world where science and technology are celebrated and where young people dream of becoming science and technology leaders."

If that means making it more accessible to more students by making two championships, so be it. From what I've seen, FIRST really isn't very concerned with the drawbacks that this system has in regards to competition. They feel like Champs is a totally unique experience, and the more kids that go experience it, the better they fulfil their mission.

I get what you're saying but FRC is supposed to be the competitive level of FIRST.

I guess teams should be looking forward to more Recycle Rush type games if this attitude is what the GDC and FIRST staff have in mind for FRC now.

[dodar]

Can we start a petition against this?

Thats what this thread is.

[WillRobinson]

Was this video previously released on April 1st?

[JVN]

So....

Inaugural Vex Pro Competition in 2017?!?

VEX Robotics and Innovation First International, Inc. are proud supporters and Crown Suppliers of FIRST.

We remain committed to supporting the FIRST Robotics Competition and FRC Teams everywhere.

[Hallry]

Can we start a petition against this?

Thats what this thread is.

Has there been a single positive post about this change yet in this thread?

[dodar]

Has there been a single positive post about this change yet in this thread?

Ive seen all negative, some neutral, but not a single positive post; and thats counting as this is the 88th post.

[Carl C]

I really wish that FIRST would have asked for feedback before signing the contracts.

At this point, it is probably too late for anything to change.

[Kpchem]

I would much rather have gone the Super Regional --> World Championship route...

http://i.imgur.com/oSNK90t.png

I'd completely forgotten about this! I remember seeing this when it was first released and I loved the concept, even if the regions seemed to be too large in some places.

What happened to this, and has it ever been discussed that this wasn't the plan (until now)?

[pastelpony]

This is a real step backward. This means that teams from NE and such will be unable to physically contact those in the West and make it virtually impossible to crown a real champion.

[who716]

I dont like this at all:
1. being in CT we can't even afford to go to st. louis, so yes detroit is slightly closer to us, but is it close enough to really make a difference in cost. probably not.

2. if we do go to championship in detroit, chances are ill never be able to see 148, 118, possibly even 254 at an event.

3. championship is best out of the best. would basketball have an east coast championship playoff and a separate westcoast playoff. declaring two champions.... absolutely not then the questions is going to arise who is truly the best robot in the WORLD the west coast team or the east coast team. from a fan's perspective who has no knowledge of first what are they going to think of this?

2012 the last year we went to championship was one of the best event of my life, not because of the location, but because we were able to walk around see teams from all over the world, and how their teams differ from ours. And the fact we were able to be nationally ranked among the top team in the world.

finally they are concerned about getting more teams to go, but do all the teams deserve to go. Yes it would be great for the students to gain the experience but would the championship then be the best of the best, do all 32 nfl teams make it to the playoffs no.

so im not sure how i feel about this seems like a 2nd mistake.

[PayneTrain]

People asking why we don't add an intermediary level of comeptition between R/SCMP and WCMP must not be raising money for their team's registration fees.

I could see a Super Regional/World Championship setup working if World Champs goes down to a 150 team event in the summer, like a super IRI, and FIRST works out a deal with a sponsor (or broadcaster?) to eliminate registration fees. Take all 16 Super Regional Winners, all 4 Championship Chairman's Award Finalists, the top 120 teams not in these categories, and the last 10 go to something like top 10 rookies or HoF teams.

[James1902]

The hate and anger needs to slow down in this thread. Think constructive not destructive criticism.

I suppose that's fair. It just feels like this MASSIVE CHANGE to a thing we all love dearly has been dropped on our heads like an anvil and a few of us needed to vent.

Trying to be constructive: I feel that a better move that would achieve the stated goals of this change (more access to better events, bigger FIRST events in more cities, etc.) would be to add intermediary levels between regionals and the championships (many people mentioned district champs as that level). This gives more people more access to quality events but still keeps the prestige and inspiration of a Championship.

[smistthegreat]

I would much rather have gone the Super Regional --> World Championship route...

http://i.imgur.com/oSNK90t.png

So this plan was published in 2011. What has changed since then to make FIRST drastically alter the competition structure?

[CalTran]

FIRST is 80% of why I even have friends around the country and internationally, and now if I want to see them I'd have to set aside 2 weekends plus whatever else I'm mentoring and volunteering for? Good grief.
On top of this, you only become the best of the half of whatever first deems you the best of. I don't like the split, I don't like the doubling down on awards, and I don't like how much of a hassle this will be.

At what point do they announce which championship you get to go to? A lot of teams, mine included, set aside plans in the fall on where we would stay, how much it'll cost, and how we're going to get to the Championships. Now that we potentially have to create 2 separate plans, one possibly costing more, would be such a pain.

At the very least, since one "Championship" is a week ahead of the other, what're the chances they could bring the winning alliance from that one to the one after for a crowning match?

[Justin Montois]

I can't describe how disappointing this announcement is.

Based on the geographic assignments outlined in the FAQ section, basically I won't be at a World Championship with the incredible teams on the West Coast and Midwest / Mountain Region ever again.

FIRST claims they are doing this to give more kids "the Championship experience." What is the Championship experience exactly?

For me, it's seeing the best robots and learning from those teams from all over the World. That's it.

Now I won't see half of the best teams and instead will see more average teams. I'm sorry but that ruins the Championship event for me.

2 Different sets of World Champions that never play each other? Multiple Chairman's Award? I agree with Adam. Lets just call every event a World Championship and be done with it.

In other news, everyone leaves with one of these!
http://i.imgur.com/lFfFRHc.png

So....

Inaugural Vex Pro Competition in 2017?!?

Yuuuuuppppppppppppppppppppppp

[Akash Rastogi]

I'm not just upset, I'm disappointed. Things were looking so good for a while. Frank was my hero because it sounded like he was on the same page as us. Why did this change happen out of nowhere?

So disappointed. There is no energy like the energy at World Champs.

[jman4747]

Noooooo! :eek: Atlanta mayor/GA governor why? Fingers crossed for 2019 :(

[Pauline Tasci]

I love how all of us came together and are trashing how bad this decision actually is.
Hopefully, FIRST realizes the same.

[scooty199]

This is also almost guaranteed to conflict the VEX World Championship nearly every year from now on unless VEX bends over backwards to not conflict, which they already went out of their way to do this year with only one FIRST Championship event.

Exactly. And because I mentor teams in both programs, I can't feasibly take off two weeks of work for these events. Having to pick one or the other isn't fun.

[zachrobo1]

I get what you're saying but FRC is supposed to be the competitive level of FIRST.

I guess teams should be looking forward to more Recycle Rush type games if this attitude is what the GDC and FIRST staff have in mind for FRC now.

Who says this model wouldn't be competitive? By no means do I think its the best choice moving forward, but on here it certainly feels like people are mostly concerned with the fact that there wouldn't be a definite winner for the entire competition.

Yes, it will suck that their won't be an absolute champion, but inside these events, the competition still exists.

[The_ShamWOW88]

I'm really surprised the FIRST apologists aren't out in force on this one.

Or are even they disillusioned by this?

I'm not an apologist by any stretch but I typically give FIRST the benefit of the doubt in most of their changes. I wasn't a fan of the change away from the W-L-T format but I gave it a chance.

This....this...however....this doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever (and everything I feel is my opinion and only mine, not of my team, etc. and so forth).

Maybe they can explain better how they think this helps teams who can't afford to go to Worlds as it sits now? My team was awarded a wild-card spot this year and we weren't going to make it based off of merit so it would have been nice to go again (haven't been since 2004, none of our students have ever been). But guess what, we couldn't come up with the funding or time last minute to find it.

How does adding a second Worlds change this? If they wanted to make a different, why didn't they put one closer to the East Coast and one closer to the West. Granted, the logistics to host one probably lowers the number of areas willing to do so but having two both in the CST zone doesn't help the problem.

All I see that it does is dilute the meaning behind winning a World Championship, Woodie Flowers award, or Chairman's Award, etc. I'm trying real hard to stay empowered and motivated to continue inspiring my students which is a HUGE part of FIRST but I don't know how many times I have to say it, its FRC (FIRST Robotics COMPETITION). They might as well change it to FRE (FIRST Robotics Event), at least that would be a more apt description.

[JesseK]

I seriously doubt the people making the argument for some kind of Champs logistical change get on ChiefDelphi at all. I'm talking about TIMS contacts who give the FRC Teams email an earful (eyeful?) about cost/etc. I hear stories directly from local teams trying to solve the problem of getting to champs, and I know for a fact I've never seen their team # on CD. I'm sure they're emailing FIRST directly trying to get info, resources, tips, etc.

As-is FRC Champs is a logistical nightmare. Let's say the DC region went to districts, and district champs were this coming weekend. How are the district champs winners getting to St. Louis? Certainly not flying at $600 per ticket (that doesn't get us there until 3pm...). Everyone's on a bus for 15 hours at that point.

If that makes me an apologist in some eyes, well ok then. To me, the only thing we can do is take what we see/experience and make a logical, thought-out argument for/against something like this or for other similar changes.

It seems like splitting up Champs is a logical next step for FIRST in general. Personally I think it makes more sense to split up Champs by program rather than geographic location, but that's my FRC-centric 0.02.

If we go with a sports metaphor, this announcement is more like AFC/NFC Champs, and IRI is the Super Bowl. Now if only we could get ESPN covering IFI ( :: ducks and covers (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118094&highlight=ESPN) :: ). Though I will really miss seeing the West Coast and MI powerhouses at the same event :(. Given that vacation is already scarce, I doubt I could attend both events as a volunteer at one of them and a team at the other.

[cgmv123]

People asking why we don't add an intermediary level of comeptition between R/SCMP and WCMP must not be raising money for their team's registration fees.

MSC was supposed to be free for teams. FIRST HQ made FiM charge second event fees. If the funding is there, there's no reason FIRST couldn't make that intermediary level free (or at least just a minimal registration fee).

[Botwoon]

lol west coast

[Eugene Fang]

There is no energy like the energy at World Champs.

But now there is twice the energy! Or half...

[Munchskull]

still waiting for April fools.

[scooty199]

So....

Inaugural Vex Pro Competition in 2017?!?


I'm down.

[dodar]

I seriously doubt the people making the argument for some kind of Champs logistical change get on ChiefDelphi at all. I'm talking about TIMS contacts who give the FRC Teams email an earful (eyeful?) about cost/etc. I hear stories directly from local teams trying to solve the problem of getting to champs, and I know for a fact I've never seen their team # on CD. I'm sure they're emailing FIRST directly trying to get info, resources, tips, etc.

As-is FRC Champs is a logistical nightmare. Let's say the DC region went to districts, and district champs were this coming weekend. How are the district champs winners getting to St. Louis? Certainly not flying at $600 per ticket (that doesn't get us there until 3pm...). Everyone's on a bus for 15 hours at that point.

Splitting up Champs is a logical next step for FIRST in general. Personally I think it makes more sense to split up Champs by program rather than geographic location, but that's my FRC-centric 0.02.

If we go with a sports metaphor, this announcement is more like AFC/NFC Champs, and IFI is the Super Bowl. Now if only we could get ESPN covering IFI ( :: ducks and covers (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118094&highlight=ESPN) :: ). Though I will really miss seeing the West Coast and MI powerhouses at the same event :(. Given that vacation is already scarce, I doubt I could attend both events as a volunteer at one of them and a team at the other.

Actually the NFL metaphor would be like having 2 Superbowls, one for the AFC and one for the NFC and calling both winning teams World Champions.

[Wetzel]

Ive seen all negative, some neutral, but not a single positive post; and thats counting as this is the 88th post.

I intended this as a positive.
2 Woodie Flowers Award winners!

[Boltman]

FIRST is 80% of why I even have friends around the country and internationally, and now if I want to see them I'd have to set aside 2 weekends plus whatever else I'm mentoring and volunteering for? Good grief.
On top of this, you only become the best of the half of whatever first deems you the best of. I don't like the split, I don't like the doubling down on awards, and I don't like how much of a hassle this will be.

At what point do they announce which championship you get to go to? A lot of teams, mine included, set aside plans in the fall on where we would stay, how much it'll cost, and how we're going to get to the Championships. Now that we potentially have to create 2 separate plans, one possibly costing more, would be such a pain.

At the very least, since one "Championship" is a week ahead of the other, what're the chances they could bring the winning alliance from that one to the one after for a crowning match?

Would not be fair would it?... two different preferred pools what if one even is super easy in comparison...that winning alliance would have been weeded out. Its all about pairings and when you only half half or so of a pool all champions are suspect....even more so than the usual preferred qualification pool seeding to get well know teams an edge.

Just look at top bot alliance qualification partners and you will see this in action...cream rises to top by "random" design. Less known teams always have a harder road in quals due to this qual alliance pairing in action. You don't notice it until you do.

[PayneTrain]

MSC was supposed to be free for teams. FIRST HQ made FiM charge second event fees. If the funding is there, there's no reason FIRST couldn't make that intermediary level free (or at least just a minimal registration fee).

I feel like I also addressed the issue in the post.

One level of competition would have to not have a registration fee, obviously.

[MikLast]

lol west coast
^^

[Jared Russell]

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the goal of becoming the World Champion.

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the thought that at the World Championship, we can look at the world's best robots up close, ask those teams any questions we want, and make friends from all across the world.

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the idea that on Saturday of the World Championship, we will see the "final act" of that year's game. The immovable object vs. the unstoppable force (60 vs. 71 in 2002). The most dominating robot ever built (1114 in 2008) against the field of challengers. The gamebreaker (469 in 2010) against the brilliant minds who were trying to figure out how to beat it. The ultimate 3-ball autonomous vs. the ultimate goalie robot.

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the goal of changing the culture by making FRC into an actual sport...the kind that non-participants will want to watch and follow (though for the first few years I admittedly didn't quite see it the same way I do now). Every year I cringe a little bit at that year's "twist" - FIRST has gotten Co-Opertition wrong more often than it has gotten it right - but there have always been moments where I think "wow, if every match was like that, this would be on ESPN".

I understand that growing FRC creates challenges that will necessitate change, but there are certainly other ways to do this than to shoot ourselves in the foot and eliminate one of the most universal elements of competition: A champion decided by a final title match(es).

It is clear with this decision that FIRST as an organization doesn't have quite the same set of goals that I do.

The ideals that are held by myself and by many of the longtime FRC mentors and volunteers whom I consider friends and colleagues are bigger than FIRST, and we will find (or make) another vehicle for them if we are forced to.

[Munchskull]

So it is official, 2015 is the worst year in FIRST.

Also:
1: Will Chief Delphi cater to VEX Pro Challenge teams?
2: When can I sign my team up?
3: Can my team carry our FRC number over?

[jlmcmchl]

I'd completely forgotten about this! I remember seeing this when it was first released and I loved the concept, even if the regions seemed to be too large in some places.

What happened to this, and has it ever been discussed that this wasn't the plan (until now)?

On the Contrary, this seems to be a step towards Super Regionals; FIRST is introducing the North and South Super Regional as Championships for now. There's just not enough teams that would get a berth from super regionals to justify a championship smaller than both of them.

Once FRC has expanded to justify the addition of the East and West Super Regionals, they will add those, and reinstate a true championship.

Change hurts, and I my own concerns about the system for the time being, but I'm excited for the path they are taking towards a more scalable system.

[nuggetsyl]

First is acting like the true monopoly they are. They clearly don't care what we think or this would have been talked about before acting.

[MikLast]

So it is official, 2015 is the worst year in FIRST.


i wouldn't say that, 2017 looks pretty poor too.

[AdamHeard]

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the goal of becoming the World Champion.

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the thought that at the World Championship, we can look at the world's best robots up close, ask those teams any questions we want, and make friends from all across the world.

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the idea that on Saturday of the World Championship, we will see the "final act" of that year's game. The unstoppable object vs. the immovable force (60 vs. 71 in 2002). The most dominating robot ever built (1114 in 2008) against the field of challengers. The gamebreaker (469 in 2010) against the brilliant minds who were trying to figure out how to beat it. The ultimate 3-ball autonomous vs. the ultimate goalie robot.

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the goal of changing the culture by making FRC into an actual sport...the kind that non-participants will want to watch and follow (though for the first few years I admittedly didn't quite see it the same way I do now). Every year I cringe a little bit at that year's "twist" - FIRST has gotten Co-Opertition wrong more often than it has gotten it right - but there have always been moments where I think "wow, if every match was like that, this would be on ESPN".

I understand that growing FRC creates challenges that will necessitate change, but there are certainly other ways to do this than to shoot ourselves in the foot and eliminate one of the most universal elements of competition: A champion decided by a final title match(es).

It is clear with this decision that FIRST as an organization doesn't have quite the same set of goals that I do.

The ideals that are held by myself and by many of the longtime FRC mentors and volunteers whom I consider friends and colleagues are bigger than FIRST, and we will find (or make) another vehicle for them if we are forced to.

I was too disheartened to write a post this long, and instead resorted to my usual snarky comments.

I'm glad you did, I agree with every word and it describes how I feel exactly.

[JohnFogarty]

First Robotics Convention or Expo seems more accurate now.

[JohnSchneider]

On the Contrary, this seems to be a step towards Super Regionals; FIRST is introducing the North and South Super Regional as Championships for now. There's just not enough teams that would get a berth from super regionals to justify a championship smaller than both of them.

Once FRC has expanded to justify the addition of the East and West Super Regionals, they will add those, and reinstate a true championship.

Change hurts, and I my own concerns about the system for the time being, but I'm excited for the path they are taking towards a more scalable system.

Where are you getting your info? Inside guy?

Because in my opinion it would have made more sense to actually start the super-regional structure instead... and have the framework in place for future growth always under 1 championship. Not multiple championships....

[pastelpony]

First Robotics Convention or Expo seems more accurate now.

Maybe bringing a robot will be optional in a few years.

[AdamHeard]

Maybe bringing a robot will be optional in a few years.

In terms of qual match performance, it will be pretty much optional by 2017.

Even now there will be teams at the World Championships essentially unable to score points (as there are every year).

[Boltman]

Maybe bringing a robot will be optional in a few years.

Certainly could happen...

Ontario Soccer Association: Our Kids Play Soccer Without The Soccer Ball
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/ontario-soccer-association-our-kids-play-soccer-without-the-soccer-ball/

"By removing the ball, it’s absolutely impossible to say ‘this team won’ and ‘this team lost’ or ‘this child is better at soccer than that child.'”

[Drakxii]

On the Contrary, this seems to be a step towards Super Regionals; FIRST is introducing the North and South Super Regional as Championships for now. There's just not enough teams that would get a berth from super regionals to justify a championship smaller than both of them.

Once FRC has expanded to justify the addition of the East and West Super Regionals, they will add those, and reinstate a true championship.

Change hurts, and I my own concerns about the system for the time being, but I'm excited for the path they are taking towards a more scalable system.

I feel that FIRST could make a super regional system with 600 teams without much a problem...

[Navid Shafa]

The ideals that are held by myself and by many of the longtime FRC mentors and volunteers whom I consider friends and colleagues are bigger than FIRST, and we will find (or make) another vehicle for them if we are forced to.

Jared's post hits home. A perspective that's formed from his experience on two HOF teams.

Before making decisions this big, I would hope that FIRST would have polled some of the community. Whether it be HOF teams, mentors, volunteers, etc. If they had, I doubt they would have received much support, if any for this change.

I really did think this was a prank when people where describing the news to me this morning...

[dodar]

On the Contrary, this seems to be a step towards Super Regionals; FIRST is introducing the North and South Super Regional as Championships for now. There's just not enough teams that would get a berth from super regionals to justify a championship smaller than both of them.

Once FRC has expanded to justify the addition of the East and West Super Regionals, they will add those, and reinstate a true championship.

Change hurts, and I my own concerns about the system for the time being, but I'm excited for the path they are taking towards a more scalable system.

Cutting before measuring is always a bad thing.

Putting multiple championships may be viable way, way down the road. But you need the lower tier infrastructure first. And, as of now, they seem to be skipping all that.

[George1902]

FIRST, we need to have a quick chat about English.

You cannot have two "World Championships" because we only live on one World. What you have done is remove the concept of world champions.

To call it anything else is at best failing at English, and at worst lying and misrepresenting yourself.


Keeping this up since this was my honest gut reaction. I was corrected by Evan below.

[JohnFogarty]

In terms of qual match performance, it will be pretty much optional by 2017.

Even now there will be teams at the World Championships essentially unable to score points (as there are every year).

considering some of the second picks that did nothing at elims stage and still won regionals this year. This problem definitely exists already and will only get worse.

[Kpchem]

...

The ideals that are held by myself and by many of the longtime FRC mentors and volunteers whom I consider friends and colleagues are bigger than FIRST, and we will find (or make) another vehicle for them if we are forced to.

As others have said, thank you for putting into words what I have been thinking since I read the news. I still find it hard to believe, and while I am almost positive this isn't the case, I hope this is a joke.

[Michael Blake]

IF they _really_ go through with this... I think some name changing is in order...

The FIRST National Semi-Finals

-and-

The IRI WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP


--Michael Blake

[nuclearnerd]

Ive seen all negative, some neutral, but not a single positive post; and thats counting as this is the 88th post.

I'm pro, on the condition that the change lets FIRST reduce the price of admission. We need to get the cost of running a successful team (a bot, one or two regionals, and a trip to champs) under 20 k$ if we're going to prevent half of all FRC teams from folding (which is what is happening currently). It's an existential problem for FIRST.

Selfishly, Detroit is going to be much easier for Ontario teams to get to. We could rely on private transport instead of renting a bus.

[ehochstein]

FIRST, we need to have a quick chat about English.

You cannot have two "World Championships" because we only live on one World. What you have done is remove the concept of world champions.

To call it anything else is at best failing at English, and at worst lying and misrepresenting yourself.

Where does FIRST say "World Champions"?

[scooty199]

I seriously doubt the people making the argument for some kind of Champs logistical change get on ChiefDelphi at all. I'm talking about TIMS contacts who give the FRC Teams email an earful (eyeful?) about cost/etc. I hear stories directly from local teams trying to solve the problem of getting to champs, and I know for a fact I've never seen their team # on CD. I'm sure they're emailing FIRST directly trying to get info, resources, tips, etc.

As-is FRC Champs is a logistical nightmare. Let's say the DC region went to districts, and district champs were this coming weekend. How are the district champs winners getting to St. Louis? Certainly not flying at $600 per ticket (that doesn't get us there until 3pm...). Everyone's on a bus for 15 hours at that point.

If that makes me an apologist in some eyes, well ok then. To me, the only thing we can do is take what we see/experience and make a logical, thought-out argument for/against something like this or for other similar changes.

It seems like splitting up Champs is a logical next step for FIRST in general. Personally I think it makes more sense to split up Champs by program rather than geographic location, but that's my FRC-centric 0.02.

If we go with a sports metaphor, this announcement is more like AFC/NFC Champs, and IFI is the Super Bowl. Now if only we could get ESPN covering IFI ( :: ducks and covers (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118094&highlight=ESPN) :: ). Though I will really miss seeing the West Coast and MI powerhouses at the same event :(. Given that vacation is already scarce, I doubt I could attend both events as a volunteer at one of them and a team at the other.

I agree with you on splitting it up by program.

Have a location for FRC specifically, and one for FTC/FLL. The only downside I believe would be the schools/localities that have multiple programs across different levels. That split would be awful.

I think this split will devolve into a NCAA Tournament/NIT sort of comparison with a team split soon.

[Thad House]

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the goal of becoming the World Champion.

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the thought that at the World Championship, we can look at the world's best robots up close, ask those teams any questions we want, and make friends from all across the world.

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the idea that on Saturday of the World Championship, we will see the "final act" of that year's game. The immovable object vs. the unstoppable force (60 vs. 71 in 2002). The most dominating robot ever built (1114 in 2008) against the field of challengers. The gamebreaker (469 in 2010) against the brilliant minds who were trying to figure out how to beat it. The ultimate 3-ball autonomous vs. the ultimate goalie robot.

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the goal of changing the culture by making FRC into an actual sport...the kind that non-participants will want to watch and follow (though for the first few years I admittedly didn't quite see it the same way I do now). Every year I cringe a little bit at that year's "twist" - FIRST has gotten Co-Opertition wrong more often than it has gotten it right - but there have always been moments where I think "wow, if every match was like that, this would be on ESPN".

I understand that growing FRC creates challenges that will necessitate change, but there are certainly other ways to do this than to shoot ourselves in the foot and eliminate one of the most universal elements of competition: A champion decided by a final title match(es).

It is clear with this decision that FIRST as an organization doesn't have quite the same set of goals that I do.

The ideals that are held by myself and by many of the longtime FRC mentors and volunteers whom I consider friends and colleagues are bigger than FIRST, and we will find (or make) another vehicle for them if we are forced to.

This will only be my 6th year in FRC, but this post really hits home for me.

I come from a region that has never even reached Einstein, and its one of the major goals many mentors from the PNW share. Being able to go to worlds, view all the INCREDIBLE robots, and see Einstein finals usually being the best matches played in FRC inspires us to push even harder. Only getting to see half the teams, and having to Einsteins is going to make the finals be basically the semi finals. The best of the best now will not happen in regular competition, which to me is basically unacceptable. Seeing the best of the best is what inspires me and my students to work harder each year to hit that goal.

[Munchskull]

First is acting like the true monopoly they are. They clearly don't care what we think or this would have been talked about before acting.

FIRST used to stand for something. Some thing great. It had meaning to everyone involved in it.

I was eight when I had my first exposure to FRC during the game Overdrive. It amazed me. I could not wait till I was old enough to join a team. Last year we made it to worlds, I was blown away by all the teams. We were honor to play with 1114 and 16. My team sat in the stands watching Einstein, blown away by seeming the greatest teams play to decide the world champion. It was like gods playing chess. One wrong move and you are done. I still have tingles down my spine thinking about it.

This years game was a little bit of a let down, I felt bad for the senors that are graduating this year. Leaving on such a boring game. But now I fear for my senor year. When Championships splits, it becomes nothing. The one thing that has been the same, ever since FRC was played on corn, is there was a world champion alliance. Now it means almost nothing.

[Wetzel]

I've minimal interest in becoming a world champion in St Louis, or where ever FIRST moves. I'm motivated by my DC Public School students going to college, and even more proud when they get accepted to MIT and Caltech. I'm delighted to meet alumni who graduated 10 years ago return to visit with a PhD and a check to support the current youth. I'm energized by a team that gels at a competition and gets excited when the robot they built in their classroom does what they built it to do. I'm encouraged that a team with 5 students, 2 whom had never used a screwdriver before, not only graduated from a high school where fewer than 50% graduate in four years, but 4 of them graduated from college in four years. I'm impressed when a shy student can come out of their shell and impress the school chancellor with their passion.


Yeah having a unified World Champion would be great, but it's not about the robot.

[mwmac]

I was eagerly awaiting the release of division assignments for 2015 when this news broke. Now I am waiting to see how the 2017 Championship assignments will work in our favor monetarily. Will the trailer get dragged to Houston (1939 miles) or Detroit (1963 miles) vs. St. Louis (1626 miles)? Already counting the money Tators will save with this change...:rolleyes:

BTW, can't wait to see the design for the FRC World Championship Participant Trophy that will be coming in the KOP for 2017.

Very surprised that First HQ did not try to gauge public sentiment to such a sweeping change....

[Boltman]

Where does FIRST say "World Champions"?

Today, we are proud to announce that FIRST is about to change the game again, for the better! Beginning in 2017, we are expanding the FIRST Championship by bringing our Sport for the Mind™ to two FIRST Championship host cities.

In sport, a championship is a competition in which the aim is to decide which individual or team is the champion.

Two champions and championships? That's nuts.

[Madison]

For the sake of informing the discussion, the circles on this map represent a 750 mile radius drawn from each of the three cities. It's pretty clear that these areas encompass a majority of current FRC teams.

I chose 750 miles because that's the furthest I've ever driven without wanting to die. It's about a 12 hour drive.

http://imgur.com/6MoevnA

[JohnSchneider]

BTW, can't wait to see the design for the FRC World Championship Participant Trophy that will be coming in the KOP for 2017.


My favorite post in this thread so far

[The_ShamWOW88]

Where does FIRST say "World Champions"?

When you win a "World Championship" you are generally considered the World Champions....right?

[ScottM]

Maybe bringing a robot will be optional in a few years.

First Lego League has felt like that...

[dodar]

For the sake of informing the discussion, the circles on this map represent a 750 mile radius drawn from each of the three cities. It's pretty clear that these areas encompass a majority of current FRC teams.

I chose 750 miles because that's the furthest I've ever driven without wanting to die. It's about a 12 hour drive.

http://imgur.com/6MoevnA

Kinda sad we arent even in those circles. lol

[jlmcmchl]

I feel that FIRST could make a super regional system with 600 teams without much a problem...

The post specifically said that they would be expanding champs to be over 100% larger than 2014 by 2017.

So, for the previous version of champs to exist, they would at minimum be required to being 200 teams from each super regional, at most 50% of each. Assuming 4 divisions, that would leave you with 96 teams in eliminations with 3 alliance members each. If you're assuming a champs model with 300 teams, you would need to send 3/8 of each super regional, 150 teams. 35% of those teams would have never seen eliminations. In Michigan this year, for every three teams in playoffs, there will be one more team sent to worlds (Note: Not all teams in playoffs make it to worlds, but most do).

It's also a large increase in cost; that's an additional 2 rather expensive venues to add to the bill in reservation, years before using them.

[Boltman]

Kinda sad we arent even in those circles. lol

East coast bias strikes

[jgalbraith]

Those that were in Houston in 2003, everything I had heard was it was awful. I wasn't there. Has the area changed much in the past 12 years?

Actually, they've initiated significant changes that will be in place by 2017.

The LoneStar Regional attendees had to deal with navigating through and around active construction sites to get from parking to the event.

Superbowl LI is going to be in Houston that year so everything should be in place by the end of 2016.

The Hilton Americas already connects to the GRB via a skybridge and has 1200 rooms. They're adding the Marriott Marquis which will connect via skybridge on the other end of the GRB. It has an additional 1000 rooms. There are six smaller hotels going up in the nearby vicinity that will add an additional 1200 rooms to the area.

Websites:
General Overview of the New Convention District (http://www.houstonconventionctr.com/HomePage/PressRoom/TheNewHoustonConventionDistrict.aspx)

Image Gallery of Architect Renditions of Finished State (http://www.houstonconventionctr.com/HomePage/PressRoom/ImageGallery.aspx)

Details on New Hotels (http://www.houstonconventionctr.com/HomePage/PressRoom/NewHotels.aspx)

[dodar]

East coast bias strikes

We're in Florida.

[MrRoboSteve]

18804

There you go.

Houston == South Super Regional
Detroit == North Super Regional

Once you have a big enough volunteer base, FRC champs returns.

I'm open to hearing from the naysayers on the thread about alternate approaches to implementing super regionals, that directly address constraints on event volunteer growth, the fuel that FIRST events run on.

I think this is exactly the right time to be announcing this. They want it out there prior to Champs so that they can get feedback and talk to the rationale behind the change. If they were really trying to hide the ball, this would come out at 8am on April 26, or they'd announce it at Kickoff.

[George1902]

Where does FIRST say "World Champions"?
They do not. Thank you. I have added to my post above.

[ehochstein]

I think this is exactly the right time to be announcing this. They want it out there prior to Champs so that they can get feedback and talk to the rationale behind the change. If they were really trying to hide the ball, this would come out at 8am on April 26, or they'd announce it at Kickoff.

Exactly, this will allow for FIRST to come up with responses to our questions and concerns. They will hopefully be able to address them two weeks from now during the FIRST Opening and Closing Ceremonies.

What are our constructive criticisms? How would we fix the system by 2017?

[MikLast]

Spokane to Houston: 2,118 miles
Spokane to Detroit: 2,071 miles

Spokane to St. Louis: 1,805 miles

I thought i heard something about cost saving?

[Taylor]

APRIL FOOLS!!!

[Drakxii]

The post specifically said that they would be expanding champs to be over 100% larger than 2014 by 2017.

So, for the previous version of champs to exist, they would at minimum be required to being 200 teams from each super regional, at most 50% of each. Assuming 4 divisions, that would leave you with 96 teams in eliminations with 3 alliance members each. If you're assuming a champs model with 300 teams, you would need to send 3/8 of each super regional, 150 teams. 35% of those teams would have never seen eliminations. In Michigan this year, for every three teams in playoffs, there will be one more team sent to worlds (Note: Not all teams in playoffs make it to worlds, but most do).

It's also a large increase in cost; that's an additional 2 rather expensive venues to add to the bill in reservation, years before using them.

But why have worlds that big? Why not just start the super regional system small with ~200 teams per super regional, and then have like 30 per super regional make worlds. Money is already an issue, no need to make the worlds large just to be large.

[orangemoore]

I not happy to see this change. For FRC it doesn't make sense, you take the C out of FRC.

[indubitably]

They can salvage the competitive integrity if they find a way to have the two winning alliances play each other.

[AdamHeard]

They can salvage the competitive integrity if they find a way to have the two winning alliances play each other.

You could play this year's game over Skype if you find a way to emulate the can race.

[dodar]

They can salvage the competitive integrity if they find a way to have the two winning alliances play each other.

More costs, more student time used, more mentor time used.

[JohnSchneider]

VEX has had a working championship system for years. With multiple tiers of play, and more teams across the globe, they found a way to organize a competition where everyone feels they got a fair chance, they inspire more people, and they don't sacrifice the competitive aspect.

Is it a grudge, or pride that keeps FIRST from emulating this system?

[JohnFogarty]

For the sake of informing the discussion, the circles on this map represent a 750 mile radius drawn from each of the three cities. It's pretty clear that these areas encompass a majority of current FRC teams.

I chose 750 miles because that's the furthest I've ever driven without wanting to die. It's about a 12 hour drive.

http://imgur.com/6MoevnA

Those circles are just plain wrong. The 750 mile radius doesn't extend past the midland region of south Carolina. You have them extending beyond the coast. There are teams in Georgia and South Carolina that won't be in those circles either.

Can someone find a sport in the world that has multiple world championships? First likes to call themselves the sport for the mind. Looks like they've got an identity crisis they need to solve.

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

Note this post is reflected on my thoughts and not my teams:
I joined 842 when we had already won the biggest award in FRC. I thought we were one of the greatest competitors in the world knowing this but come competition season, I soon realized that it wasn't the same case for our robots. Yes we work very hard to help our community and grow STEM but I guess I never really liked the fact that our robots were pretty under performing in comparison to the best in the world. Seeing awesome teams like 469 and 25 inspired me do everything I can to help make our robots more competitive. After all, 25 comes from a similar type of school as us and 469 I don't know the details of but their robot mechanisms seemed like something anyone could design and build if they really wanted to. So I started learning cad and studying the best teams from all around the world. I poured countless hours into these different designs and strategies, all for the hope that our team can finally make it to Einstein field and compete on it. It wasn't just me that seemed to have this drive either. Our entire team seemed to be more heavily geared at not just making robots that work or would hold their own, but to make robots that could score effectively. Mechanisms designed to try and be the best in the world. We are still quite a ways away but it's still the driving factor to be the best in the world. Splitting the world championships in half would be devastating to my morale at least because it makes the goal unachievable. A team is not "world" champions if they only competed with half of the teams in world. Like others have said, you might as well call every event a world championship if that's the case. I don't see why degrading what I believe is one of the best events in the world just to give every team half the championship experience is a good thing. I really hope this change is revoked because it would seriously lessen my intent to stay in FIRST. They are not the only robotics competition around that's intended to inspire kids. But I'd like them to be the best nevertheless.

[Katie_UPS]

BEGIN PEDANTIC NOTE
... other than that this means IFI and similar offseason events will be determining actual world champions now.


If we go with a sports metaphor, this announcement is more like AFC/NFC Champs, and IFI is the Super Bowl.

Just to clarify: IFI is a company that is a FIRST sponsor. IRI is an offseason competition in Indiana. The r and f are close on the keyboard and the acronyms are very similar but they are very different things.

END PEDANTIC NOTE


fully aware most arent reading, just posting

[The other Gabe]

I'm just surprised that they couldnt put FLL & FTC at one event, FRC at the other.

I'd also like to see a "super finals" where the winners of the two Championships face off to crown the true world champ.

seeing my question addressed and having that second thing happen would make me OK with this

[JohnSchneider]

What are our constructive criticisms? How would we fix the system by 2017?

Every region gets districts... place some flex regionals in low population areas If needed. Progress teams to Champs from district championships. Low level teams get the "champ experience" at the district champs. High level teams still get to compete for a world title. Everyone wins.

[SteveB2977]

I've minimal interest in becoming a world champion in St Louis, or where ever FIRST moves. I'm motivated by my DC Public School students going to college, and even more proud when they get accepted to MIT and Caltech. I'm delighted to meet alumni who graduated 10 years ago return to visit with a PhD and a check to support the current youth. I'm energized by a team that gels at a competition and gets excited when the robot they built in their classroom does what they built it to do. I'm encouraged that a team with 5 students, 2 whom had never used a screwdriver before, not only graduated from a high school where fewer than 50% graduate in four years, but 4 of them graduated from college in four years. I'm impressed when a shy student can come out of their shell and impress the school chancellor with their passion.


Yeah having a unified World Champion would be great, but it's not about the robot.

Kudos!

It's about so much more than the robot.

[Kevin Leonard]

As a competitor, I'm very much against this decision.

I was drawn to FRC by the competition. In my freshman year of high school, my technology teacher showed the class some video of Team 20 competing in Breakaway. I saw Team 20's robot achieve a nail-biting win in the match I watched. It was awesome to me- students built a robot to compete with others- and not like Battlebots, where the only goal is destruction- but as respectful competitors in a sport-like environment.

I joined the team that fall and never looked back- not because I was all that interested in every part of the robot, but because FIRST is the best competition I've ever competed in.

I've been a part of competitive wrestling, swimming, diving, ultimate, and baseball, but FIRST is the best I've ever done- because anyone can win, all they have to do is be the smarter competitor, not have any inherent physical advantage. There's no name-calling in FIRST, there's little arrogance and no sabotage. FIRST showed me how to compete the right way in everything I do, not just robotics.

I'm now in college studying mechanical engineering at the Rochester Institute of Technology because of my FIRST experience. I wouldn't be here if FIRST wasn't a real competition. If FIRST goes through with this change, I see dozens of otherwise competitive, incredibly gifted students passing on the FIRST Robotics "Competition" because it's not a competition anymore at the highest levels.

You can't have two World Champions.


The ideals that are held by myself and by many of the longtime FRC mentors and volunteers whom I consider friends and colleagues are bigger than FIRST, and we will find (or make) another vehicle for them if we are forced to.

I hope if FIRST continues to pursue this solution, some other competition with full-size robots springs from the ashes FIRST leaves behind and gives students everywhere the competition they deserve.

[Madison]

Those circles are just plain wrong. The 750 mile radius doesn't extend past the midland region of south Carolina. You have them extending beyond the coast. There are teams in Georgia and South Carolina that won't be in those circles either.

Can someone find a sport in the world that has multiple world championships? First likes to call themselves the sport for the mind. Looks like they've got an identity crisis they need to solve.

I'm not sure I understand -- Detroit to Charleston, SC is 681 mi. as the crow flies. The circles absolutely should extend out beyond the coast if their radius is 750 mi.

[Hallry]

A quote from Don Bossi in the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXyaWwjwFto&feature=youtu.be&t=239):

One of he important things about FIRST and maybe what separates us from other sports is that we're an inclusive organization. We're about not picking a winner at the expense of others but celebrating everyone's accomplishments and success.

Well, then FIRST is not a sport.

[JesseK]

It is clear with this decision that FIRST as an organization doesn't have quite the same set of goals that I do.

The ideals that are held by myself and by many of the longtime FRC mentors and volunteers whom I consider friends and colleagues are bigger than FIRST, and we will find (or make) another vehicle for them if we are forced to.

This is a bit of a volatile hyperbolic statement which doesn't state anything fundamentally new in the STEM education world, don't you think? The rest of your post hits home, IMO. This last statement is just a distraction to me.

Many FRC teams are part of larger programs that utilize multiple 'vehicles' already (have you seen recent Chairman's videos?). FIRST programs are great general programs and use a great set of ideals to achieve FIRST's goals, but the programs themselves do not address every STEM education-related need this country already has.

[KeeganP]

What are our constructive criticisms? How would we fix the system by 2017?

Setup a system with progressively bigger "zones" or "regions" with events. Create 4 "Sections" (N/S/E/W?) each with several districts in it. You compete at district events, go to district champs, go to section/region champs, and then go to world champs. Live stream all world champs events for teams that don't qualify, and keep the cost at $0 to attend workshops/watch matches if you aren't actively competing.

A 600 team champs event is great, but I feel it may be too big -- especially when a good portion of the teams going to champs this year "qualified" though the waitlist, instead of through winning (or being a finalist, etc.).

[Connor Mulkey]

The politically correct gloves are coming off for this one. I'm sorry, but this is the stupidest idea I have ever heard. This doesn't even deserve constructive criticism, as some have suggested. You're only seeing destructive criticism because there is absolutely nothing defensible about this decision. It has no merits, and I can't help but feel betrayed by having this decision sprung upon me.

When I go to compete at a World Championship, I expect it to be a WORLD (representing all regions) CHAMPIONSHIP (one alliance winning it all by beating the best). I want to compete against ALL of the best teams. Who cares about winning one of these championships when you didn't have to beat 1114, 254, 2056, 67, 987, 118, 33, 469, and the rest of the top tier teams to earn the title? You may have beaten some of them, but you'll never know if your alliance was actually the best. It's extremely disappointing for there not to be only one alliance at the end of the year that can say they rose above all the others.

Anyone in the FIRST organization that thinks this is a good idea clearly does not understand this program or share the same goals as many of the teams that participate in it, and they should not be allowed to hold their position any longer. Making a decision like this is the quickest way to ruin this program, and I don't want to see that happen. This is a time for brutal honesty because they have to understand that this is not acceptable.

Don't be delusional. This is a competition. As a student, I competed to win, and my team's success on a world stage is what inspired me. There's nothing I hate more than calling everyone winners and handing out participation trophies. (Maybe that's their current plan for 2020 and beyond.) To be as blunt as I can be, there are simply not enough highly qualified robots to justify having two world events. There aren't enough championship-caliber teams right now to even justify having 600 teams at the current championship.

I understand this program is growing and must be expanded in order to keep up with that growth. But this is not how you do it. I hope you realize this after seeing how disgusted people are with this decision.

[arizonafoxx]

Add me to the list of people that don't like this idea. Why North and South? I could maybe see East and West but not North and South. It is the same cost for our team to travel to Huston or Detroit or St Louis. So we are not saving any money.

IRI Time to step up your event. You will need to become bigger and better so you can host the true World Champions and see who comes out winner. Who's ready for a multiple field IRI?

[JohnFogarty]

I'm not sure I understand -- Detroit to Charleston, SC is 681 mi. as the crow flies. The circles absolutely should extend out beyond the coast if their radius is 750 mi.

12 h 55 min (823.3 mi) via I-77 N

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=charleston+to+detroit+drive

[ehochstein]

Well, then FIRST is not a sport.

A sport is defined as, "an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment."

So, physical exertion aside, are you not entertained?

[George1902]

18804

There you go.

Houston == South Super Regional
Detroit == North Super Regional

Once you have a big enough volunteer base, FRC champs returns.
I sincerely hope you are right. I also hope we hear from FIRST soon about these expansion plans.

This feels like a step backwards, but it might be a step back in order to take many steps forwards.

Here's hoping.

[Mackenzie W]

BEGIN PEDANTIC NOTE




Just to clarify: IFI is a company that is a FIRST sponsor. IRI is an offseason competition in Indiana. The r and f are close on the keyboard and the acronyms are very similar but they are very different things.

END PEDANTIC NOTE


fully aware most arent reading, just posting

Thanks for correcting me, my apologies to IFI :p Edited.

[dodar]

I sincerely hope you are right. I also hope we hear from FIRST soon about these expansion plans.

This feels like a step backwards, but it might be a step back in order to take many steps forwards.

Here's hoping.

You dont go from owning a Corvette to owning a Pinto so that you can eventually own a Ferrari.

[tmpoles]

A water game would've been a better idea than this

Imho, one of the best aspects of FIRST is getting to go to one final event with the best teams from the world, from Australia to Israel. If they do this, the diversity of teams that anyone would get to play with is seriously limited. Worlds should be the best of the best, if you need to make more districts to get the best together than do that (they're not highly popular, but effective). Separation is not the answer. You just can't have two Einsteins

[Loose Screw]

I'm very surprised they didn't follow FTC and create 4 super regionals. Usually FTC is testing grounds for FRC.

I personally don't like the way worlds is set up this year. Sure, with 600 teams there you can see the best from the entire world, but you can only compete with 1/8th of them. The alliances that move on to Einstein will be based on luck of who gets paired in the same division. Imagine if 1114 and 254 get paired in the same division, and the other power house teams get separated into the other 7 divisions. You could almost determine who will win worlds this year by which teams get paired in the same division.

If I were to change the way FRC is structured, I would create 4 super regionals, then 1 world championship with only 1 division. I would also try to change an element of the game to make it more competitive, then allow teams to keep their robots unbagged (or allow significant unbag time) so they can properly adjust to this change. Basically FIRST-run IRI.

If FIRST wants to keep the competition part of FRC, they should never remove defense completely again. I still think 2011 MSC Finals were some of the most exciting matches I've seen. The #1 alliance was defeated by the #8 alliance based on strategy alone. Einstein that year was disappointing compared to MSC.


TL;DR

Create 4 super-regionals so many teams get the "worlds" experience.

Reduce the total number of teams that compete at worlds so there's one division of the best teams of the world.

Keep defense in FRC. Strategy is more exciting than a showcase. If I wanted a showcase, I would watch reveal videos.

[George1902]

You dont go from owning a Corvette to owning a Pinto so that you can eventually own a Ferrari.
But you might sell your house and rent a few years until you can buy a better house.

[Madison]

12 h 55 min (823.3 mi) via I-77 N

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=charleston+to+detroit+drive

Right -- all distances on that map are "as the crow flies." No time this morning to figure out how to map all places that are 12 hours by driving from a single point on the map, although that might be a fun exercise to try someday.

[Knufire]

After seeing Warren Central High School (where the Indiana State Championship was held), the buiding could definitely hold a two field event. It's only 15 minute away from Lawrence North High School, the current IRI venue. In case they want to expand...

[MrTechCenter]

I was right. I said FIRST would go back to Houston and they laughed at me...but I was right...

But in all seriousness, this really doesn't make sense. I would totally get it if FIRST split up FRC, FTC, and FLL and had FTC/FLL at a separate World Championship just for the sake of space, but why split all of the programs?

Also, it seems pretty strange to me that they're using different venues for everything in Houston. It's probably because of conflicts with the NBA and MLB seasons which makes sense but that's a lot of juggling.

And it also seems backwards to have the pits at Ford Field in Detroit and the matches in the Cobo center. Should be the other way around.

[EricLeifermann]

This might be one of the worst decisions FIRST has ever made. They were doing so good too, actually listening to what teams wanted. This definitely wasn't what people have been asking for. Districts >super regionals > world championship . That's the route we should be taking l. Not this.

[dodar]

But you might sell your house and rent a few years until you can buy a better house.

So you renovate your house and before the workers are even gone and you havent even seen how the renovations look yet, you are already putting the house on the market?

[pwnageNick]

Many FRC teams are part of larger programs that utilize multiple 'vehicles' already (have you seen recent Chairman's videos?). FIRST programs are great general programs and use a great set of ideals to achieve FIRST's goals, but the programs themselves do not address every STEM education-related need this country already has.

Considering Jared is part of 254 who has won the World Chairman's Award recently and has one of the most prestigious VEX programs in the world, I'm pretty sure he's aware of what you said.

EDIT: also a part of 341 when they won CCA.

[saikiranra]

One of the supposed sentiments behind this change is to reduce over all costs for teams who have to travel far to get to champs, but this hardly makes it better for teams on the West Coast. The PNW district and California need to travel farther (or the same distance), which doesn't improve the situation for us. Not to mention, this changes almost nothing for a lot of the non-American subcontinent teams.

Another sentiment of this change is to make FRC more inclusive. It seems like a more cost-effective and inclusive solution to change most areas to districts, where teams who don't usually make it to Champs can attend district champs.

This decision shows the large disconnect between HQ and the actual teams. Hopefully something constructive can come out of this.

[Bob Steele]

This just in....

FIFA, having heard about the new FIRST Robotics plan, have announced that for the next World Cup they will have 2 World Champions. This will allow more countries to compete and give everyone a more complete experience.

Upon winning, each Champion will be rewarded a half trophy and be allowed to put half of a star on their country's jersey.

NCAA also thinking of stopping the Basketball Tournament at the Sweet Sixteen and crowning 16 National Champions.

More to come....

[Woolly]

This will only be my 6th year in FRC, but this post really hits home for me.

I come from a region that has never even reached Einstein, and its one of the major goals many mentors from the PNW share. Being able to go to worlds, view all the INCREDIBLE robots, and see Einstein finals usually being the best matches played in FRC inspires us to push even harder. Only getting to see half the teams, and having to Einsteins is going to make the finals be basically the semi finals. The best of the best now will not happen in regular competition, which to me is basically unacceptable. Seeing the best of the best is what inspires me and my students to work harder each year to hit that goal.

This is year 4 for me, but PNW's goals sound oh so much like MO's goals right now. There's a lot of teams around here absolutely clawing for any chance to allow a World Champions trophy to stay in Missouri after it's presented in St. Louis.

If the motivation is to inspire more people, I'm firmly of the opinion that lowering the bar with 2 championships is the wrong way to go about it. On the contrary, it would be more inspiring if more robots were able to effectively play the game at district and regional levels, and it might help with potential sponsors' perception of FIRST and FIRST teams. IMO this is why instead of lowering the bar, FIRST as an organization and we as a community should renew our focus on making sure that everyone in FIRST knows about the extensive intellectual resources available to them (CD, Simbotics.org, team358.org for labview, old robot footage, etc.).

While some find emulating other teams to be uninspiring or even taboo, the idea is to use team X's design/process/corn dog dispenser once and then being engineers, scientists, mathematicians, programmers, etc. find ways to improve upon it, and then report your findings back to the community.

While I know this post is long and a bit non-sequitur, it's my opinion (read: Not team 1806 or any of it's sponsors' opinions) that dividing the championship in 2, and having the "everyone gets a medal" mentality is harmful to the end goals of FIRST. However, maybe that's just because I fail to accept that such a high number of teams are completely incapable of building a robot that can put up more than say 20 points a match by themselves, with the caveat being that would have to be made aware of all the resources they have, and also be able to meet a reasonable time commitment.

[JimCash]

I am VERY disappointed. I am grateful that my team gets to go to World's this year before this terrible plan goes in to effect. IRI will now be the true "World Championships".... If you want to have a "World Experience", go to the FIRST double championship. If you want to compete for world title, save your money and go to IRI.

[JABot67]

Two points:

First of all, I think that a major gripe a lot of people have about having two championships is that there would be two world championship winning alliances. I think this could be resolved by having the winning alliance from Houston hurry on up to STL or DET the next week to battle it out in an actual final series. This could address a lot of people's concerns about having more than one winning alliance. Most of the Houston crowd, however, would have to watch the finals from home.

Second of all, I'd just like to echo the sentiment that there is a difference between being at THE World Championship, and being at one of the two world championships. At THE World Championship, you know that you are really getting the big picture. All the qualifying powerhouse teams and VIPs and FIRST-supporting celebrities and CEOs and politicians are there with you. When you hear Dean talk between matches on Einstein, you know that competition season is coming to a close for everyone.

It's going to be hard for me. I can't wait for the time when someone starts to talk about 2017 Einstein and I have to interject and ask "Which one?".

Also, I imagine that the STL/DET teams are going to watch HOU Einstein and know what strategies to employ. Seems weird that one championship will have an effect on the strategy of another championship.

http://www.thebluealliance.com/event/2017cmp1
http://www.thebluealliance.com/event/2017cmp2

^ Can't wait for these events to happen! ^

[AquaMorph]

This is how I see this announcement

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYmHYQPaHaw

[Abhishek R]

As a competitor, I'm very much against this decision.

I was drawn to FRC by the competition. In my freshman year of high school, my technology teacher showed the class some video of Team 20 competing in Breakaway. I saw Team 20's robot achieve a nail-biting win in the match I watched. It was awesome to me- students built a robot to compete with others- and not like Battlebots, where the only goal is destruction- but as respectful competitors in a sport-like environment.

I joined the team that fall and never looked back- not because I was all that interested in every part of the robot, but because FIRST is the best competition I've ever competed in.

I've been a part of competitive wrestling, swimming, diving, ultimate, and baseball, but FIRST is the best I've ever done- because anyone can win, all they have to do is be the smarter competitor, not have any inherent physical advantage. There's no name-calling in FIRST, there's little arrogance and no sabotage. FIRST showed me how to compete the right way in everything I do, not just robotics.

I'm now in college studying mechanical engineering at the Rochester Institute of Technology because of my FIRST experience. I wouldn't be here if FIRST wasn't a real competition. If FIRST goes through with this change, I see dozens of otherwise competitive, incredibly gifted students passing on the FIRST Robotics "Competition" because it's not a competition anymore at the highest levels.

You can't have two World Champions.



I hope if FIRST continues to pursue this solution, some other competition with full-size robots springs from the ashes FIRST leaves behind and gives students everywhere the competition they deserve.

I have exactly the same feelings, word for word. Competition is what drew me to FIRST the most, and this just doesn't feel right.

[ijonny5]

So....

Inaugural Vex Pro Competition in 2017?!?

Best idea I've heard yet.

[Steven Donow]

Two points:

First of all, I think that a major gripe a lot of people have about having two championships is that there would be two world championship winning alliances. I think this could be resolved by having the winning alliance from Houston hurry on up to STL or DET the next week to battle it out in an actual final series. This could address a lot of people's concerns about having more than one winning alliance. Most of the Houston crowd, however, would have to watch the finals from home.


Okay, on Monday, April 24th, 2017 I'll tell my future boss after I win the 2017 Houston Champs that I need to take an additional 2-3 days off and spend $1000+ on a last second trip to STL/DET

[JohnSchneider]

Solution: regional winners and their wildcards go to Detroit. Everyone else to Houston, with double qualifiers going to Detroit. Treat Detroit as the world championship and Houston as an exhibition championship.

More people to championships. Actually increases the competition level at the main event. Think NCAA vs NIT.

[Larry Lewis]

I don't know all the details of the venue selection process that FIRST goes through but it would have been good if they asked the FIRST teams where they would like to have the two Championships.
They could have provided a list of potential host cities for both Championships and allowed teams to provide their input on where the event should be held.
I understand that FIRST may not be able to accommodate the first choice for all the teams due to cost or event logistics, but at least then they could get a feel for what the teams would want and the teams would be able to provide some say in where to have the events.

I wish that FIRST would allow for teams to be able to select what Championship event they can attend if the team qualifies. For some teams the events are both going to necessitate air travel. If you are already getting on a plane it may not matter as much what city you land in.

[Bongle]

More costs, more student time used, more mentor time used.

If they're having two large events, they could probably afford to compensate the team for shipping and transit costs.

As I read the announcement and saw they were 2 weeks apart, I was sure the "true world champion" logistics were going to be at the bottom as it made perfect sense.

Here's how I think they could fix this:
1) Crown winner of CMP1, give winning alliance enough money ($10-$15k) to pay for flights/shipment/time to get to CMP2. Bag all winning robots _immediately_ so that they play in the same mechanical state as they were in after their last match. FIRST could probably handle shipping of the winning robots themselves to the 2nd CMP venue.
2) Play CMP2 normally, crown their winner.
3) Immediately following the CMP2 einstein matches, a final showdown between CMP1 and CMP2 winners to crown world champ.

It wouldn't solve the "not getting to see the other best robots in the world in the flesh" problem, but it solves the "no true world champ" problem fairly.

Benefits of my proposed arrangement:
1) Crown a true world champ
2) Minimal cost increase: The CMP1 alliance (coaches/mentors/drivers) would only _need_ to be flown in for the Saturday of CMP2 so that they could compete in the final Einstein matches. They might not even need hotels.
3) Fair playoff between the two winning alliances. Since the CMP1 alliance would've been bagged in whatever state they won in, both alliances would be a similar level of bedragglement.
4) Since the CMP1 winners would be known, FIRST could talk up the upcoming showdown, and CMP2 competitors would know what they're up against. Similarly, the CMP1 team would have the time to strategize and optimize their game plan.

[Rachel Lim]

I am really, really sad by this announcement. I don't even know how to start explaining the feeling that in my senior year, we won't be competing at champs but "half champs." For me, a huge part of FRC is seeing powerhouse teams on the field and saying "someday, we want to be them." How can we see how much we can improve and how far we have to go if we never see these top teams? This is my second year with FRC; we'll be in this new system during my last year on the team. I'm so glad I've known FIRST before this change, and I feel so bad for all the rookies that year who will never experience that level of competition, that level of excitement, and that level of inspiration.

I know what the arguments for this are, besides the geographic and cost benefits (if they exist...). Bringing more teams to champs is inspiring for them, and pushes them to do better. FIRST is not just about the robot. It's more than just about winning. I don't get how this helps those points at all.

Seeing the best of the best is inspiring and pushes us all do do better. It pushes us to build a better robot, to want to win, and in that process we learn more than we ever would if we accepted "good enough" as our goal.

Giving out more medals doesn't make everyone a winner, it just takes away from the teams that truly are. I understand that more teams in elims, more teams on Einstein, and more teams that win is a great experience. But I really hope that if my team ever gets this chance, we get it though our hard work and success on the field, not because more teams need to be picked and we just "good enough." Lowering the level of competition makes average acceptable, and makes aiming for more harder to push for.


Please, FIRST, don't do this. Give us back champs. Give us back the experience of seeing all the amazing teams in the world, the feeling of watching those top teams play and saying "someday we want to do that." Give us back the best method of inspiration we have.

[dodar]

If they're having two large events, they could probably afford to compensate the team for shipping and transit costs.

As I read the announcement and saw they were 2 weeks apart, I was sure the "true world champion" logistics were going to be at the bottom as it made perfect sense.

Here's how I think they could fix this:
1) Crown winner of CMP1, give winning alliance enough money ($10-$15k) to pay for flights/shipment/time to get to CMP2. Bag all winning robots _immediately_ so that they play in the same mechanical state as they were in after their last match. FIRST could probably handle shipping of the winning robots themselves to the 2nd CMP venue.
2) Play CMP2 normally, crown their winner.
3) Immediately following the CMP2 einstein matches, a final showdown between CMP1 and CMP2 winners to crown world champ.

It wouldn't solve the "not getting to see the other best robots in the world in the flesh" problem, but it solves the "no true world champ" problem fairly.

Money wouldnt be the biggest problem. Its time. Time off for students and time off for mentors. Which, for mentors, also means lost income.

[Jacob Bendicksen]

Solution: regional winners and their wildcards go to Detroit. Everyone else to Houston, with double qualifiers going to Detroit. Treat Detroit as the world championship and Houston as an exhibition championship.

More people to championships. Actually increases the competition level at the main event. Think NCAA vs NIT.

I'm not a huge fan of this idea. My team has qualified via Chairman's for the past three years, and while we're not usually competitive in St. Louis with the robot, that doesn't mean that we don't want to play with the best robots in the world. If the idea is to keep Chairman's as the most prestigious award in FRC, separating the Chairman's winners out seems like the wrong approach.

[JABot67]

Okay, on Monday, April 24th, 2017 I'll tell my future boss after I win the 2017 Houston Champs that I need to take an additional 2-3 days off and spend $1000+ on a last second trip to STL/DET

Yes it seems quite unfeasible. People have talked about it in this thread and dismissed it as well (I suck at reading through threads before posting. :() It would be very hard to get it to work, even if it was just a Saturday trip and paid for by FRC. Logistics just for the teams would be crazy.

There's always IRI!!

[JohnSchneider]

I'm not a huge fan of this idea. My team has qualified via Chairman's for the past three years, and while we're not usually competitive in St. Louis with the robot, that doesn't mean that we don't want to play with the best robots in the world. If the idea is to keep Chairman's as the most prestigious award in FRC, separating the Chairman's winners out seems like the wrong approach.

Didn't Include chairman's because otherwise the second chairman's award lost a lot of its integrity. Send chairman's to Detroit though. Doesn't matter. The split needs to be made by some Performance metric. Not by geography if you want to save the integrity of the awards

[Drakxii]

Wonder if any of the great teams would just skip a half champs to play at IRI.

[Bongle]

Money wouldnt be the biggest problem. Its time. Time off for students and time off for mentors. Which, for mentors, also means lost income.

CMP1 team could be flown out of their hometowns on Friday evening, and returned by Sunday. No school or work time missed. They only _need_ to be present for the 3 matches on Saturday afternoon. In a really tight situation, you could probably make it a one-day trip (in by early afternoon on Saturday, gone the moment the matches end).

[dodar]

I would honestly love a full disclosure by FIRST to see the list of "positives" they found that told them to go ahead with this.

[Brandon_L]

Before we all jump the gun, a good guy frank blog is probably in order. If the end goal is this (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=18804), is it worth a few awkward transition years?

[StAxis]

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the goal of becoming the World Champion.

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the thought that at the World Championship, we can look at the world's best robots up close, ask those teams any questions we want, and make friends from all across the world.

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the idea that on Saturday of the World Championship, we will see the "final act" of that year's game. The immovable object vs. the unstoppable force (60 vs. 71 in 2002). The most dominating robot ever built (1114 in 2008) against the field of challengers. The gamebreaker (469 in 2010) against the brilliant minds who were trying to figure out how to beat it. The ultimate 3-ball autonomous vs. the ultimate goalie robot.

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the goal of changing the culture by making FRC into an actual sport...the kind that non-participants will want to watch and follow (though for the first few years I admittedly didn't quite see it the same way I do now). Every year I cringe a little bit at that year's "twist" - FIRST has gotten Co-Opertition wrong more often than it has gotten it right - but there have always been moments where I think "wow, if every match was like that, this would be on ESPN".

I understand that growing FRC creates challenges that will necessitate change, but there are certainly other ways to do this than to shoot ourselves in the foot and eliminate one of the most universal elements of competition: A champion decided by a final title match(es).

It is clear with this decision that FIRST as an organization doesn't have quite the same set of goals that I do.

The ideals that are held by myself and by many of the longtime FRC mentors and volunteers whom I consider friends and colleagues are bigger than FIRST, and we will find (or make) another vehicle for them if we are forced to.

Jared, you said everything I've wanted to say and better than I could ever say it. I thought that our goals were in line with those of FIRST, clearly they are not. I will be there to help find or make the vehicle we need to get there if need be.

[Joe G.]

Two points:

First of all, I think that a major gripe a lot of people have about having two championships is that there would be two world championship winning alliances. I think this could be resolved by having the winning alliance from Houston hurry on up to STL or DET the next week to battle it out in an actual final series. This could address a lot of people's concerns about having more than one winning alliance. Most of the Houston crowd, however, would have to watch the finals from home.


The difficulty with this would be ensuring that every winner from the first event can make it to the second. Currently, it's not a big deal if this happens from regional --> champs, because alliances are broken up and every team starts with a clean slate. If you're just going to take the winning alliance, you'd have to ensure that all members are able to attend, or else it wouldn't really be a true championship matchup. And the alternative, putting the winners in the mix with all the other teams, would obviously make the first event completely second class.

Perhaps a better model would be what VEX does with their "US Open" championship event. This event takes place a few weeks before the official championship, and invitations are given to teams who almost, but didn't quite, qualify for the world championship. The event is near championship scale in its own right, and gives teams that experience, but it doesn't suggest itself to be of equal standing to the World Championship. I believe that in the past, but not anymore, teams which performed well at the US Open could accept reserved slots at the World Championship a few weeks later, if the financial/travel burden was worth it for them.

It's important for us to propose reasonable alternatives to FIRST alongside our concerns, if we hope to inspire change. Clearly, FIRST perceives the access level of the championship experience to be a problem, and the current model to be unsustainable. I think that they've made a huge mistake in their solution, and we should work to figure out an alternative in the two years before the changes go into effect.

[MrTechCenter]

You think that if they talk about this plan at St. Louis this year during opening/closing ceremonies that they would get a resounding "Boo!" from the audience? I know it's not GP, but I think FIRST needs to start listening to teams.

[dodar]

You think that if they talk about this plan at St. Louis this year during opening/closing ceremonies that they would get a resounding "Boo!" from the audience? I know it's not GP, but I think FIRST needs to start listening to teams.

I dont think we should "boo" but I'd say not a single clap would be better; just be completely silent.

[AdamHeard]

You think that if they talk about this plan at St. Louis this year during opening/closing ceremonies that they would get a resounding "Boo!" from the audience? I know it's not GP, but I think FIRST needs to start listening to teams.

You can say anything to the crowd and they will cheer though.

You could announce we're doubling the price of champs, in order to make it MORE AWSOME! and the crowd would cheer.

[Sunshine]

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the goal of becoming the World Champion.

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the thought that at the World Championship, we can look at the world's best robots up close, ask those teams any questions we want, and make friends from all across the world.

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the idea that on Saturday of the World Championship, we will see the "final act" of that year's game. The immovable object vs. the unstoppable force (60 vs. 71 in 2002). The most dominating robot ever built (1114 in 2008) against the field of challengers. The gamebreaker (469 in 2010) against the brilliant minds who were trying to figure out how to beat it. The ultimate 3-ball autonomous vs. the ultimate goalie robot.

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the goal of changing the culture by making FRC into an actual sport...the kind that non-participants will want to watch and follow (though for the first few years I admittedly didn't quite see it the same way I do now). Every year I cringe a little bit at that year's "twist" - FIRST has gotten Co-Opertition wrong more often than it has gotten it right - but there have always been moments where I think "wow, if every match was like that, this would be on ESPN".

I understand that growing FRC creates challenges that will necessitate change, but there are certainly other ways to do this than to shoot ourselves in the foot and eliminate one of the most universal elements of competition: A champion decided by a final title match(es).

It is clear with this decision that FIRST as an organization doesn't have quite the same set of goals that I do.

The ideals that are held by myself and by many of the longtime FRC mentors and volunteers whom I consider friends and colleagues are bigger than FIRST, and we will find (or make) another vehicle for them if we are forced to.

My feelings exactly. Eloquently stated. Remember folks, you are the customer and you speak with your pocketbooks. Just another attempt of instilling "no robot left behind" mentality. (Sarcasm warning!) Give everyone an award, give everyone the title of world champion........... The more you dilute the more meaningless it all becomes.

[Carl C]

You can say anything to the crowd and they will cheer though.

Cheer and probably throw some paper airplanes.

[MrTechCenter]

I dont think we should "boo" but I'd say not a single clap would be better; just be completely silent.

That's probably a better idea.

[mwmac]

Cheer and probably throw some paper airplanes.

Quite appropriate given this "lead balloon" announcement.

[Botsup]

I have read all 13+ pages of posts and not a single one is saying "great idea", not even one is mildly positive, most being very negative. I would venture to proclaim the FIRST community is united (a hard thing to do) in viewing this as a bad idea.

SO>>>>

We can write more posts on Delphi, or we can take action! After all, this is OUR
organization. If there are no end users of the program, there is no FIRST. I for one am calling FIRST headquarters today, along with sending them an email, and an old fashioned snail mail letter explaining my displeasure and the reasons for it.

PLEASE JOIN ME! We do NOT have to just grumble and accept this!

[scooty199]

Solution: regional winners and their wildcards go to Detroit. Everyone else to Houston, with double qualifiers going to Detroit. Treat Detroit as the world championship and Houston as an exhibition championship.

More people to championships. Actually increases the competition level at the main event. Think NCAA vs NIT.

Was thinking the NCAA and NIT thing.

Actually crazy outlandish solution.

Let's come up with conferences (districts) for the different areas for FIRST.

Winning Alliance at DCMPs get automatic bids, as do chairman's and EI.

Make a bunch of these conferences, have a good set of teams, and then the rest fill in by rankings or at large bids.

[wireties]

The hate and anger needs to slow down in this thread.

The word "hate" and all the "isms" words get thrown around way too much these days. "Hate" is a very strong word. All I see in this thread is disgust and disappointment and a little hope here and there - entirely appropriate. And this is just a game and/or philanthropy. Keep it coming, let FIRST know what you think!

That being said, not sure what I think yet...

[MrTechCenter]

Was thinking the NCAA and NIT thing.

Actually crazy outlandish solution.

Let's come up with conferences (districts) for the different areas for FIRST.

Winning Alliance at DCMPs get automatic bids, as do chairman's and EI.

Make a bunch of these conferences, have a good set of teams, and then the rest fill in by rankings or at large bids.

I'm pretty sure that's been the idea for years....

[Munchskull]

The ideals that are held by myself and by many of the longtime FRC mentors and volunteers whom I consider friends and colleagues are bigger than FIRST, and we will find (or make) another vehicle for them if we are forced to.

This quote above seems to encompas the feelings almost all of us have.

In little over two weeks 600 teams we be in one place. Every one of these teams can have an impact. What if teams that are against two "worlds" some how prominently posting their pits some sort of message showing that they are actively against this new system?

this maybe me just being all heated up right now but it's an idea.

[lynca]

Perhaps a better model would be what VEX does with their "US Open" championship event. This event takes place a few weeks before the official championship, and invitations are given to teams who almost, but didn't quite, qualify for the world championship. The event is near championship scale in its own right, and gives teams that experience, but it doesn't suggest itself to be of equal standing to the World Championship. I believe that in the past, but not anymore, teams which performed well at the US Open could accept reserved slots at the World Championship a few weeks later, if the financial/travel burden was worth it for them.


This has worked well for RECF for the past few years.
I know many teams that travel to the US Open and VEX worlds ! Even the VEX summer games was a neat idea.

Essentially IRI has become one of these types of events for FIRST.

If your team wins FRC Champs or IRI, then you have won a major championship.

[Wetzel]

I have read all 13+ pages of posts and not a single one is saying "great idea", not even one is mildly positive, most being very negative. I would venture to proclaim the FIRST community is united (a hard thing to do) in viewing this as a bad idea.

SO>>>>

We can write more posts on Delphi, or we can take action! After all, this is OUR
organization. If there are no end users of the program, there is no FIRST. I for one am calling FIRST headquarters today, along with sending them an email, and an old fashioned snail mail letter explaining my displeasure and the reasons for it.

PLEASE JOIN ME! We do NOT have to just grumble and accept this!

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1468253&postcount=111

[Sam Slade]

I know I'm late to the party here so I haven't had a chance to read all of the posts yet but this came to my mind almost immediately after reading the announcement.

By limiting which Championship event teams can go to based on geographic regions, you are pretty much guaranteeing (at least through 2020) that there will be two main groups of "powerhouse" teams that will never get to compete against one another. With a Championship event in Detroit, you will see Michigan powerhouse teams like 67 and 33 with Canada powerhouse teams like 1114 and 2056. In Houston, you will have teams from Texas like 118 and 148 with, more than likely, west coast teams like 254 and 978 (Las Vegas isn't exactly the coast but you get my point). These teams are almost always the best of the best and seeing them compete against one another is one of (IMO) the best parts of the World Championship event. By forcing them to compete in separate World Championship events, matches between these teams is something we may never see except in the off season (IRI).

Another issue I have is placing one of these Championship events in an area where the district structure is already present. This year 64 teams from Michigan are qualifying for the Championship event to be spread over 8 divisions. Michigan teams have been competing against each other all year. At the Championship event, they will be spread out and get to compete against the best teams from around the world. With a Detroit championship and only 4 divisions, are they going to decrease now the number of teams in Michigan (a growing district) that qualify for the Championship event? If they don't, then the Detroit championship will be saturated with Michigan teams, diminishing the "World Championship" feel. And instead of playing the best teams from around the world, now they are playing the best teams from the Midwest and Canada.

I agree that the World Championship event is growing and it is a great thing. I have no problem with two championship events but I would propose a few changes.

1. Don't limit teams to championship events based on their geographic region.
2. Hold both events in the same weekend.
3. Take the top 4 alliances from each championship event and have them compete at a 1 day event the following week in a third location.

This gives you 8 alliances of the best robots in the world to compete in one final tournament. Invite the Chairman's award finalists, etc. to the event and make it a big deal. No qualification matches, just the best of the best competing for the crown. This gives you your World Champions, your Chairman's Award winner, etc.

It wouldn't have to have the huge pit areas like a normal championship event. You could but it in a basketball arena and make a huge deal out of it. Give the best of the best a stage to play on and the marketing and FIRST's exposure would take care of itself.

[Bob Steele]

I think we were well on our way to having teams compete for more championships by moving to Districts. At PNW last weekend and last year we had a great time and the competition was really fun. We got to crown champions and had GREAT robots there. It was exciting and we now have our District Champions. Each District can do this... and then send along a great set of robots to St. Louis.

If we stay the course and get everyone on the District bandwagon, this can happen for every team. MANY more teams get to go to District Championships and compete.

Trying to say that EVERYONE needs to be able to compete for CMP is ridiculous we simply can't host an event for everyone. These District CMP events are exciting and very much like competing in a division at St. Louis. The competition is very similar. to Divisional play at CMP.

If we want everyone to be able to experience CMP once why not give everyone a "golden ticket" that would be redeemable in any year that the team desires.... they could go to CMP and get the experience. It would give their team a boost. Some teams would use it early some later when the team needs it but it would be a chance for that team to utilize it as they see fit. I think that the 2nd or 3rd year is the critical time for teams and that may be the time to use their ticket.

Not a perfect solution of course but let's stay the course and get more areas on the District Bandwagon.


OK..caveat.... our team was on the winning alliance in our District CMP the last two years.... but I don't think that makes this argument any less powerful.

Other District teams should weigh in on this... I think you will find it supported by most.... District CMP costs less.... travel is easier....

the only downside is not being able to play against teams from other parts of the world. but perhaps interdistrict play might help in that regard when it starts happening on a larger basis.

I know this is not a perfect idea.... some teams will always have issues..so I apologize to them already.

[MattRain]

As much as I hate the Super Regional Set up that FTC has, I feel like it would have been a better idea than this.

Reasons I don't like the Super Regionals FTC has:
-Extra costs (registration, travel, hotels, food)
- Top teams from different states that get a bad pairing of qualification matches, which don't make it to world then. (Some can relate to this I think)
- Time off work/school. (This hurts after burning through paid time off when you factor in qualifiers, regionals, super regionals, Worlds)

Even with the reasons listed above, I feel it would be a better option than going with two different events. Phoenix AZ to St Louis is 1457 miles, compared to Phoenix AZ to Houston which is 1172 miles, not much less...

You lose the true feel of a WORLD championship. I would like to compete with everyone around the world, not just the South portion of the US/World....

I've been to 4 (5 this year) World Championships. My best year still has to be my first year as a freshman. Smaller, and more family feeling. It just doesn't feel right anymore. FRC decided to go up to 600 teams this year, to allow more teams to come to the WORLD championship, yet the FTC community is still only 128 of the best teams.

FTC has 3799 Active teams, only 128 go to the World Championships, 288 go to Super Regionals...

FRC has 3245 Active teams, 600 go the World Championships, No Super Regionals....

Why FIRST?? In short, have FRC go to a Super Regional Setup like FTC, as much as I hate it. It seems like the lesser of two evils... I want to know the real World Champion.

[Sunshine]

Seeing the best of the best is inspiring and pushes us all do do better. It pushes us to build a better robot, to want to win, and in that process we learn more than we ever would if we accepted "good enough" as our goal. Giving out more medals doesn't make everyone a winner, it just takes away from the teams that truly are. I understand that more teams in elims, more teams on Einstein, and more teams that win is a great experience. But I really hope that if my team ever gets this chance, we get it though our hard work and success on the field, not because more teams need to be picked and we just "good enough." Lowering the level of competition makes average acceptable, and makes aiming for more harder to push for. Please, FIRST, don't do this. Give us back champs. Give us back the experience of seeing all the amazing teams in the world, the feeling of watching those top teams play and saying "someday we want to do that." Give us back the best method of inspiration we have.

Always amazed when high school students speak greater wisdom than the adults in charge. Great job young woman!

[Rachel Lim]

I have read all 13+ pages of posts and not a single one is saying "great idea", not even one is mildly positive, most being very negative. I would venture to proclaim the FIRST community is united (a hard thing to do) in viewing this as a bad idea.


The issue is that CD normally has a pretty united set of views and opinions, and are the ones who are inspired by success, seeing those better than us succeed, and pushing ourselves to be better and to succeed. It means in general, I've seen CD like more mentor involvement, be more in support of cheesecaking, and like alliance selections from the top 8, and other topics more than what I've seen from other students and mentors, especially those not on CD.

I completely agree with you and I don't like this at all. But there are views not represented here held by many, perhaps even a (silent) majority. I'm willing to bet that some teams will be thrilled to get a chance to be at champs even if it's only half of it, even if personally I'd rather my team not be able to attend because we didn't do well enough instead of getting a spot because there are more spots and the bar was lowered. I'd guarantee you that many, many people will not agree with my view though.

[Jared Russell]

This is a bit of a volatile hyperbolic statement which doesn't state anything fundamentally new in the STEM education world, don't you think?

I was referencing the culture change aspect of FRC (robotics as a sport that appeals to non-participants, exciting finals matches on ESPN brought about by an incredibly high level of competition, building big and fast robots that make you say "wow!", etc.).

I don't think it is hyperbole to say that large decisions like this make me (and the majority of mentors with whom I have already spoken or who have posted about this) question FIRST's long term vision for this currently-unique-to-FRC idea, and open to the thought that FRC may at some point in the future no longer be the best fit for that idea.

[Andrew Lawrence]

Always amazed when high school students speak greater wisdom than the adults in charge. Great job young man!

Pretty sure Rachel isn't a dude...

[AdamHeard]

Always amazed when high school students speak greater wisdom than the adults in charge. Great job young man!

Young woman you mean.

[aryker]

I have read all 13+ pages of posts and not a single one is saying "great idea", not even one is mildly positive, most being very negative. I would venture to proclaim the FIRST community is united (a hard thing to do) in viewing this as a bad idea.

SO>>>>

We can write more posts on Delphi, or we can take action! After all, this is OUR
organization. If there are no end users of the program, there is no FIRST. I for one am calling FIRST headquarters today, along with sending them an email, and an old fashioned snail mail letter explaining my displeasure and the reasons for it.

PLEASE JOIN ME! We do NOT have to just grumble and accept this!

(emphasis mine)

THIS! FIRST needs to learn that they can't just make these kinds of decisions without consulting the community! Let them know what you think!

[Munchskull]

Always amazed when high school students speak greater wisdom than the adults in charge. Great job young man!

The posters name is Rachel, I think it is a girl.

[Rachel Lim]

Pretty sure Rachel isn't a dude...

Young woman you mean.

I agree. ;)

Thanks though, to Sunshine and to both of you for catching it before I even saw the post...
EDIT: And to Munchskull and to whoever else may end up replying.

[OAXACA]

I see both good and bad things with this.

1. I think it's great of FIRST to take into account all those teams who qualify for Worlds, but the expense is just to high to get STL. This year, we qualify for worlds, but the expense is huge. By having a venue in Houston, that makes things alot easier for teams in the neighbouring states.

2. I do see the argument that there should have been a venue on the west coast, the team count is higher on the 2 coasts.

3. One huge issue I have is that there will be duplicate awards passed out at both events. I understand that FIRST really isn't about winning and such. But by doing this, it kind of takes away from the award it self. Soon, every team you see at regionals will most likely end up at Worlds. Which might also put teams into the whole mentality, "We don't have to try so hard. There are going to be 1000+ Spots for championships, we're bound to get one".

4. I really hope that the winning teams at both championships can compete together for the true title of "World Champions".

I really do appreciate FIRST for trying to address the growth needs and I think it's swell that they're trying to come up with solutions for problems, But this wasn't the best solution for any problem.

There is my bit on it.

[Munchskull]

I am still at the point that I am hoping I will wake up to a bad dream.

[George Nishimura]

As great as Frank's blog is, FIRST seems like an unnecessary opaque organisation. How was this decision made: who did they talk to, what were the options and what are the priorities?

I would love to know more about how FIRST makes decisions: from GDC to Big picture strategy.

There seems to be a large amount of passionate negative reaction, and a fantastic opportunity in three weeks to manifest that constructively. I think (and not as any form of team representative) the idea of a visual protest (a poster at each pit or a petition) is a great idea.

From FIRST's perspective, I can understand if they want a cultural shift away from sports, or a sports-oriented culture. But as others have said, that side of FRC attracts a lot of people (including myself) to the program, so it would be great (and respectful to the community) to admit that up front if that was indeed the case. Especially as it's a tagline they are promoting in the announcement: Sport for the Mind™

[MissDaisyGirl]

I'm going to leave a few things here that basically encompass just part of the feelings I'm having:

Philadelphia to St. Louis: 2 hr, 25 min
Philadelphia to Houston: 3 hr, 30 min
Philadelphia to Detroit: 1 hr, 35 min

Detroit is a winner, right? No. Is everyone overlooking the fact that Detroit is the most dangerous city in America? Its clear that the people making these decisions have never once in their life chaperoned 50 high school students through a large metropolitan environment.

"Violent crime rate: 2,137 per 100,000 residents
The Motor City tops the list of America's Most Dangerous Cities for the fourth straight year thanks to a stubborn problem mostly with gang-related violence. Violent crimes fell 10% last year but are still running five times the national average."
http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mlj45jggj/1-detroit/

[jman4747]

Well I guess tell them you don't like it if you're going to champs. That stay silent during the announcement thing is going to be awkward though.

I don't feel as strongly as many do (I wouldn't quit FRC) but it's worse than the alternative in my opinion. And honestly I was more upset about the location than the model initially.:rolleyes:

[staplemonx]

My Email to FIRST , limited to 255 characters.

Please do not follow through on your plan to change to multiple top level championships for FRC.

Instead, please maintain a single world championship and instead turn your non world championship venues into super districts.

It will be hard to motivate kids after next year since they will no longer be working towards being the best, instead they will be trying to hit some quasi defined goal of being highly ranked in the country.

Calling them next

[nrgy_blast]

This is fantastic news! The students I've seen seem to be questioning the 'everyone is a winner' mentality lately, and this is the perfect opportunity to reinflate the theme for at least a generation (4 years) to come! When the next group of students catches on, we can do as another poster suggested and just stop the event with 'super regionals'. In all, I think we can perpetuate this for another 6-8 years before everyone gives up on FIRST all together!

[Carolyn_Grace]

I'm going to leave a few things here that basically encompass just part of the feelings I'm having:

Philadelphia to St. Louis: 2 hr, 25 min
Philadelphia to Houston: 3 hr, 30 min
Philadelphia to Detroit: 1 hr, 35 min

Detroit is a winner, right? No. Is everyone overlooking the fact that Detroit is the most dangerous city in America? Its clear that the people making these decisions have never once in their life chaperoned 50 high school students through a large metropolitan environment.

"Violent crime rate: 2,137 per 100,000 residents
The Motor City tops the list of America's Most Dangerous Cities for the fourth straight year thanks to a stubborn problem mostly with gang-related violence. Violent crimes fell 10% last year but are still running five times the national average."
http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mlj45jggj/1-detroit/

While I'd rather it be another location ;) instead of putting out scare statistics, I'd like to publicly ask the FIRST Detroiters what they think of this development? What does Detroit have to offer teams from around the world and out of state? I'm sure they have a unique perspective.

[mwmac]

I'm going to leave a few things here that basically encompass just part of the feelings I'm having:

Philadelphia to St. Louis: 2 hr, 25 min
Philadelphia to Houston: 3 hr, 30 min
Philadelphia to Detroit: 1 hr, 35 min

Detroit is a winner, right? No. Is everyone overlooking the fact that Detroit is the most dangerous city in America? Its clear that the people making these decisions have never once in their life chaperoned 50 high school students through a large metropolitan environment.

"Violent crime rate: 2,137 per 100,000 residents
The Motor City tops the list of America's Most Dangerous Cities for the fourth straight year thanks to a stubborn problem mostly with gang-related violence. Violent crimes fell 10% last year but are still running five times the national average."
http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mlj45jggj/1-detroit/

:rolleyes: But you are missing the obvious attractions: "Each city has been chosen with our visitors in mind and each location – St. Louis, Houston, and Detroit has many opportunities for outdoor and recreational activities, as well as arts and cultural experiences, and simply sightseeing."

Your point is well-stated and I can only surmise that facilities outweighed student safety in the calculus.

Still waiting for FIRST HQ to chime in...come on Frank, we know you are out there...

[Brandon_L]

This is fantastic news! The students I've seen seem to be questioning the 'everyone is a winner' mentality lately, and this is the perfect opportunity to reinflate the theme for at least a generation (4 years) to come! When the next group of students catches on, we can do as another poster suggested and just stop the event with 'super regionals'. In all, I think we can perpetuate this for another 6-8 years before everyone gives up on FIRST all together!

This years game has been jokingly referred to as Sr. Jr. FLL, but with this change, it seems like that's exactly where FIRST wants to move FRC.

[MikLast]

This is fantastic news! The students I've seen seem to be questioning the 'everyone is a winner' mentality lately, and this is the perfect opportunity to reinflate the theme for at least a generation (4 years) to come! When the next group of students catches on, we can do as another poster suggested and just stop the event with 'super regionals'. In all, I think we can perpetuate this for another 6-8 years before everyone gives up on FIRST all together!

i cant tell if this is sarcasm or something meant to be positive...

[MissDaisyGirl]

While I'd rather it be another location ;) instead of putting out scare statistics, I'd like to publicly ask the FIRST Detroiters what they think of this development? What does Detroit have to offer teams from around the world and out of state? I'm sure they have a unique perspective.

You are right to put it out to the group and I would not hesitate to visit Detroit on my own in an instant. I'm just pointing out that surely safety has to be a concern. Towards the end there in Atlanta I had a few altercations of my own with our team walking the streets mid-evening. I wouldn't want any recurrence of those types of situations.

[cgmv123]

Still waiting for FIRST HQ to chime in...come on Frank, we know you are out there...

Not sure exactly who wrote this, but this is the post on the official FRC Blog.

We’ve got big news! Hear from FIRST President Don Bossi (http://www.usfirst.org/aboutus/2017-first-championship-announcement) about how we plan to deliver the FIRST Championship experience to thousands more young people worldwide – starting in 2017.

That's it.

[mwmac]

Not sure exactly who wrote this, but this is the post on the official FRC Blog.

I am aware that Mr. Bossi is the lead on the communique. However, Frank seems to be the man taking the measure of the FRC community and responding to its concerns....

[JesseK]

I was referencing the culture change aspect of FRC (robotics as a sport that appeals to non-participants, exciting finals matches on ESPN brought about by an incredibly high level of competition, building big and fast robots that make you say "wow!", etc.).

I don't think it is hyperbole to say that large decisions like this make me (and the majority of mentors with whom I have already spoken or who have posted about this) question FIRST's long term vision for this currently-unique-to-FRC idea, and open to the thought that FRC may at some point in the future no longer be the best fit for that idea.

This makes much more sense. Given that Champs is insanely large with 3 programs what would be your (or the Poofs') vision for FRC's future?

I only ask this specifically from the Poofs because (most) every post I've read from a Poofs mentor that has been proactive has produced insanely good ideas (some of which we don't realize how good until much later). The Poofs also produce incredible results when you put energy and focus into an effort. I think it's a fair statement that many teams already ask themselves "What Would the Poofs Do?" for many strategic and design decisions, so what would the Poofs do here?

[cgmv123]

I am aware that Mr. Bossi is the lead on the communique. However, Frank seems to be the man taking the measure of the First community and responding to its concerns....

That was Frank's blog. Given how short and non-informative the post is, I'm not sure it was written by Frank.