Arranging Houston vs St. Louis

[Nemo]

From Frank's FRC Blog:
I’m personally very interested in hearing your ideas about how we may be able to arrange for final matches between the winners of FIRST Championship Houston and FIRST Championship St. Louis.

What are your suggestions?

Here's mine. I'm definitely borrowing from ideas I've seen floated here in the past.


Fly 16 teams someplace to arrive by Friday night
Invite the 4 winners from each city, plus top 2 bots from each finalist alliance, plus captains from semifinalist alliances (or some such system)
Play 16 or so qualifier matches Saturday morning
Alliance selections before lunch
Semis and Finals in the afternoon to find a winning alliance.


This would be small enough that FIRST could get a small venue and send the lucky qualifying teams for free. Bring the best camera crew and announcers and produce it like a professional sporting event.

16 matches is enough to give every team 12 partners, and you could even balance the schedule such that you get more partners from your opposite city's championship to mix it up.

The point would be to bring a really great set of robots together to have it out for a Championship that can be reasonably completed in a single day. It would be able to produce some super alliances that are nearly impossible to create with a normal serpentine draft.

Something like this has a small enough number of teams that you could more easily hype it up for a broader audience to understand. It would make a really cool TV special that you could easily condense down to an hour or two of screen time. I can picture some team introductions and bio and game explanations and history to start the program (previous match footage and stories mixed in), then qualifiers with commentary to provide context for the matches. The alliance selection would have some great drama and intrigue, so the commentary would need to explain that and drum it up. Then you have your two rounds of playoffs to determine a true World Champion Alliance. Maybe do best of five in the finals.

All of this is doable. When you're only talking about 16 teams and focusing it as a live web event to be turned into a TV special later, it's possible to come up with the funding to get that limited number of teams there. And the level of prestige at such an exclusive event is going to alleviate some of the burnout associated with holding the extra event beyond the regular championships. I doubt the invited teams would complain.

[EricH]

As a conditional item...

The winners from the earlier event go to the later event. Once a winner is crowned for the second event, the first event winners join them on the field. Handshakes ensue, followed by best-three-of-five. (Such great teams, must see more of them.)

The conditions?
--The earlier winners have to travel one week later. If any one of them can't do so, the plan falls apart. That means this is probably a non-starter.
--Vary which event is the "earlier" event. This might be tricky, but necessary to prevent one being viewed as "easier" or what-not.
--There can only be two championship events for this--beyond that, it gets tricky.

[MikLast]

An idea to fix the class missed, do it on Saturday/Sunday? Teams on the west coast are still well screwed for travel, but it could help for the more central teams. May not be the best idea, but waiting until June, July and on when people have graduated and may not be around in the summer is not really great either.

[Kevin Sevcik]

--The earlier winners have to travel one week later. If any one of them can't do so, the plan falls apart. That means this is probably a non-starter.This is definitely risky, but given that the match doesn't have to happen until Saturday, you've got good odds that the teams could make it. The winning robots/tools/etc. can ship in crates on the trucks transporting the fields etc. anyways. That just leaves the problem of getting team members there. Booking flights that tight is painful, but almost certainly doable, since flying in Friday night means you're not fighting the hundreds of other teams for flights. Flying in just for Saturday also means little or no extra missed school.

[waialua359]

As a conditional item...

The winners from the earlier event go to the later event. Once a winner is crowned for the second event, the first event winners join them on the field. Handshakes ensue, followed by best-three-of-five. (Such great teams, must see more of them.)

The conditions?
--The earlier winners have to travel one week later. If any one of them can't do so, the plan falls apart. That means this is probably a non-starter.
--Vary which event is the "earlier" event. This might be tricky, but necessary to prevent one being viewed as "easier" or what-not.
--There can only be two championship events for this--beyond that, it gets tricky.
This could've been so much easier if the back to back championship events were in the same city. Couldnt FIRST have found a city that offered them 2 weeks instead of 1 week 2 venues, back to back? Save on the resources needed to put on an event as well.

[tStano]

My idea for a location is Denver. Denver is a huge airport hub, and you can fly from almost anywhere cheaply. Its also relatively geographically central so no one has to fly for too long. If its not central enough, Minneapolis might be a decent idea, its also a huge hub. Kansas city is slightly more central but slightly less of a hub. With a central location, it could possibly be a 1 day event.

[tStano]

Sorry for the double post, but this is really unrelated.


As a competing but similar idea, which isn't as robust, but much simpler to understand to a TV audience. Since divisions are a thing anyway, you don't get "the best robots" competing against each other in the current model, and no one has complained very loudly about that. I understand one 'championship' may be weaker than the other, but I think if you allow teams to swap, teams will make relatively even competition. People will try to go where its easier, while other people want to go see the better robots, and i think you'll end up with something close to balanced.


Play out the semifinal rounds at each 'championship' and take the finals rounds to this 3rd location. Immediately after the last semifinal match, the winning robots and necessary tools are bagged and shipped(on FIRST's dime) to a one day, televised "true world championship" which would be done on a third weekend in a different smaller arena that is a huge airport hub.

There would be just 4 alliances to make it to this final level. The teams(a skeleton crew, maybe just drive team and elims pit crew) would be flown out for a single saturday, on FIRST's(or hopefully the broadcast sponsors') dime. You could of course bring the whole team, but it would cost you, and they wouldn't be allowed on the field except for pictures at the end (as is usually the case for elims pit crew). This whole event would take less than 3 hours, and could be easily televised, with interviews with drivers and whatever.

Highest seeded north plays lower seeded south, Lower seeded north plays Higher seeded south, winners of those play each other. This final championship is one day, so shouldn't be TOO taxing on everyone. Its free, and awesome, and you would assume anyone would go. Because FIRST has the robots in their control, you could hold this at any time, the next weekend, or even the summer, and the season is essentially frozen in time. Don't allow any witholding allowance for superchamps. Allow minimal time to work on robots so they are in a very close state to how they were at the end of their championship.

It also could be an intimate place to roll out a red carpet and really schmooze some sponsors, as well as bring FIRST more into the public eye.

Most of the positives of this apply to the other idea as well. The benefits that this version has is that its less time, so less school missed, and easier to televise and explain. The downfall is that because of championship biases, you're not guaranteed to get the best possible alliances.

[Caleb Sykes]

This could've been so much easier if the back to back championship events were in the same city. Couldnt FIRST have found a city that offered them 2 weeks instead of 1 week 2 venues, back to back? Save on the resources needed to put on an event as well.

One of FIRST's stated reasons for the dual championships is to decrease travel costs for teams. Having back-to-back weeks at the same venue does not achieve this goal.

[pandamonium]

Do 2017 Houston vs St. Louis @ 2018 Kickoff...

[PAR_WIG1350]

Do 2017 Houston vs St. Louis @ 2018 Kickoff...

Then those teams would need different robots for the offseason competitions, which may or may not be problematic depending on resources.

[Peter Johnson]

Hold a special dedicated best-of-3 matchup at IRI between the two champion alliances. This would be separate from the main IRI competition, which of course the champion teams could participate in as well. Maybe with FIRST sponsoring the entry fee for the teams concerned. Still extra travel, but at least it's during summer rather than during the school year.

Of course, any plan would be very challenging for a non-North American team to participate in. We haven't had an Australian or Israeli team be on a championship-winning alliance yet (as far as I'm aware), but it's good to consider all possibilities.

[waialua359]

One of FIRST's stated reasons for the dual championships is to decrease travel costs for teams. Having back-to-back weeks at the same venue does not achieve this goal.
While I do understand the general concept of having the dual championships at different locations with the intent to decrease cost, it remains to seen on whether having it St. Louis/Houston and Detroit/Houston will actually do that. There are others that believe an East Coast/West Coast venue might have been better, or perhaps they chose Detroit due to the sheer no. of teams in Michigan, Ontario, Minnesota, etc.
Securing a venue also depends on what the host city has to offer in terms of its facilities, hotels, etc. in addition to how much it would cost. This will certainly factor into possibly less than ideal locations to address those needs.

If I wanted to see the best of the best from each of the 2 Championships, I could do just that by booking my trip a few days earlier or stay a week later paying for 1 R/T ticket. Or maybe, by having it at one venue for two weeks, you only need to transport 1 set of fields (and stuff) and have it stay put for back to back weekends, thus lowering the cost to FIRST which gets passed down to us as lower registration fees.

[cadandcookies]

There are others that believe an East Coast/West Coast venue might have been better, or perhaps they chose Detroit due to the sheer no. of teams in Michigan, Ontario, Minnesota, etc.

Just want to clarify, Detroit is a few hours further from the Twin Cities than St. Louis is, so it certainly isn't for Minnesota's benefit. I could definitely see the benefit for Michigan, Ontario, and more North-eastern teams.

[Squillo]

My idea for a location is Denver. Denver is a huge airport hub, and you can fly from almost anywhere cheaply. Its also relatively geographically central so no one has to fly for too long.

Love it!!! :D (JK - My son is in college in Denver...)

[Sunshine]

As a conditional item...

The winners from the earlier event go to the later event. Once a winner is crowned for the second event, the first event winners join them on the field. Handshakes ensue, followed by best-three-of-five. (Such great teams, must see more of them.)

The conditions?
--The earlier winners have to travel one week later. If any one of them can't do so, the plan falls apart. That means this is probably a non-starter.
--Vary which event is the "earlier" event. This might be tricky, but necessary to prevent one being viewed as "easier" or what-not.
--There can only be two championship events for this--beyond that, it gets tricky.

In most years, the advantage would go to second week teams. The first group sits idle watching a tournament with little practice time while winners of second event are wired.

[efoote868]

Have the prize of winning the Championship event be an all expenses paid trip to FIRST HQ some amount of time later (maybe a month or two?) for some number of people (6-12)... Winning alliances play each other best 3 out of 5 with a broadcast deal by whoever. Other teams or people are allowed in by invitation only, small event.


Makes scheduling travel easier, keeps costs near zero for teams, crowns a champion.

[Jacob Paikoff]

Three letters: IRI

The best teams are already there, what better way to start the event then having Houston champ vs St. Louis champ.

[who716]

i think they should keep the same alliance partners that they played with at their championship, and just go head to head on a single day event best outta five finals matches

[MrRoboSteve]

If the location was Minnesota, there are several venue options. The one that is most interesting for me is the rotunda (http://www.donwongphoto.com/moaeastrotunda/content/120105_060_large.html) at Mall of America. The Rotunda can support large events with several thousand spectators. It would be an excellent location for a live broadcast.

MSP airport has direct flights to about 175 locations (http://nsflight.com/Data/MSP.html).

Teams could take the Green Line train 4 stops (about 10 minutes) from inside the airport to the station in the mall, and stay in one of the two hotels in the mall (850 rooms).

MN FRC volunteers are used to running big events (we have two double regionals)

[Michael Corsetto]

Championship Winning Alliances play head to head to determine who the actual "World Champions" are.

Loser burns their Championship Blue Banners, since they are clearly no longer the best alliance in the World, aka the "winner" of the "World Championship"

I'd much rather have a finalist award, than a Blue Banner after I lost this "final" set of matches. We got the finalist award last year, and we are so proud to have gotten so far.

Like Siri said, this is a fringe issue, and FIRST is not likely to do anything like this anyway. They've made their priorities clear, and this "demo match" is not in line with those priorities.

-Mike

[sanddrag]

I have not read the 500+ posts on the dual championship complaint thread but thr proposal presented here seems like a bad idea. I look at it from a different perspective. You spend 10,000 man-hours, $50,000+ to be the best of the best in FIRST, you play your hearts out against 400 other teams and WIN the "World Championship" (one of them anyhow) , and that's still not enough? Now you have to give up MORE time, more money, to go play at a tiny short event where after having won the "World Championship" now you're going risk losing, and let a different team be declared the real World Champion? No thanks. When is enough enough?

And for the other 2500 teams in FIRST, we're paying registration fees which in part pay for yet another event we will never attend, just so we can see who the four "real" champions are, instead of just accepting and being happy with the eight that have already been determined?

Bring on the state championships. Especially in California. But this national play until you drop dead style that this program has taken on is just too much.

[carpedav000]

Or, we could invite a bunch of the top teams to Indiana to compete in a robotics invitational ;)

[Seth Mallory]

As long as FIRST has no touching games like this year then it is just high score wins. In that case the highest score from one of the 2 championships would be the champ. All FIRST would have to do is make sure there are no common game pieces in the finals like the center cans. This maybe one of the reasons for this years game format.

Having another play off for crowning the champ is hard on students. Some students need time in school to get the grades for the FIRST scholarships.

[Scott Kozutsky]

As long as FIRST has no touching games like this year then it is just high score wins.

Given the general opinion on this years "no defence" game I don't think that will happen. Defence and strategy were what made 2012, 2013, and especially 2014 such an amazing games to watch, the best alliances weren't just the alliance that had the 3 robots that could solo the most points.

[Hoover]

Two won't work unless there are two divisions. One way out of this is have the top N teams from each national qualify for a world series. So a smaller venue that can hold 50 to 100 teams or so would work. This fits into the current way of things.