Negotiating for Alliance Selections During the Championship

[GuyM142]

Hey everyone,
As you know alliance selection is scheduled to Saturday morning.
We were wondering how teams will be able to talk with each other about the selections if the matches end by 6:30 and the pits close by 7:00.
Last year teams had time to do that during the last qualification matches of the third day, but I think It'll be hard to do that on Saturday's morning.

Do you think that teams will start negotiating during the second day?
How would you look at this issue from an alliance captain perspective and as a picked team perspective?

Thank you.

[T^2]

All the powerhouse teams will be having powerhouses dinners with each other in the powerhouse restaurants, probably.

[hardcopi]

Those kind of conversations will go throughout the day on Friday. I am guessing we will have a data meeting after Thursday to go over that days events and teams to watch, then a more comprehensive one on Friday.

[Kevin Leonard]

All the powerhouse teams will be having powerhouses dinners with each other in the powerhouse restaurants, probably.

All the Powerhouse teams with their Powerhouse robots will be eating their Powerhouse dinners in their Powerhouse restaurants while discussing their Powerhouse lives with their Powerhouse families.
Afterward they might take some Powerhouse showers in their Powerhouse towering towers.

Am I the only one that hates the term "Powerhouse Team"? It implies there's something fundamentally different about them than the rest of FRC teams. It also promotes hero worship. I'm personally not a fan, but that's just me.

In terms of the actual dynamics of Friday night strategy, it's going to be very different. Many alliances will form Friday night, and teams will have to accurately predict Alliance selections if they're not one of the top couple teams.
I'm personally very excited for this new dynamic. It's going to be fun :D

[Abhishek R]

All the powerhouse teams will be having powerhouses dinners with each other in the powerhouse restaurants, probably.

Let me know what kind of cuisine these "powerhouse" teams like so our team can get in on the latest alliance selection news.

[BrendanB]

Let me know what kind of cuisine these "powerhouse" teams like so our team can get in on the latest alliance selection news.

Corndogs and cheesecake.

[FrankJ]

Am I the only one that hates the term "Powerhouse Team"? It implies there's something fundamentally different about them than the rest of FRC teams. It also promotes hero worship. I'm personally not a fan, but that's just me.

They are some teams that operate on a different level than everybody else. What else would you call them? I am not whining but they also have different resources. They have characteristics to be admired, I wouldn't go so far to promote hero worship.

[Carolyn_Grace]

What Makes a Powerhouse thread here: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84608&highlight=powerhouse

[notmattlythgoe]

They are some teams that operate on a different level than everybody else. What else would you call them? I am not whining but they also have different resources. They have characteristics to be admired, I wouldn't go so far to promote hero worship.

I agree this shouldn't always be seen as a whiny statement. This statement doesn't mean that the team has more money or a better facility or better machining sponsors. Sometimes it just means that they have an experienced group of people that excel at analyzing a game and are able to help their students understand how to best play it.

[evanperryg]

All the Powerhouse teams with their Powerhouse robots will be eating their Powerhouse dinners in their Powerhouse restaurants while discussing their Powerhouse lives with their Powerhouse families.
Afterward they might take some Powerhouse showers in their Powerhouse towering towers.


sounds like you're a little powerhouse sour... :D

In all seriousness though, team-worship in FRC can ruin a strong team by encouraging them to pick based on a hype train. That isn't to say a team with a reputation can't deserve that reputation, but picks based on hype aren't always the best. Pick based on your analysis of each team, and make decisions based on your understanding of their robot, your robot, and how your robots would function in the context of all the other robots. Successful alliances aren't formed based on hype.

More on-topic, though, I'd expect teams to be talking to each other most of friday afternoon. It's actually a really good time for it, too- it's before the scouting meetings, and offers a few matches to watch your potential partners more closely.

[Richard Wallace]

Corndogs and cheesecake.
I wish they'd serve those in the volunteer lounge. Better yet, bring platters full out to the field.

[Chinmay]

Corndogs and cheesecake.


this really needs to go on the spotlight

[Citrus Dad]

Am I the only one that hates the term "Powerhouse Team"? It implies there's something fundamentally different about them than the rest of FRC teams. It also promotes hero worship. I'm personally not a fan, but that's just me. :D

You're right that it distorts perceptions of teams and those teams don't always judge other teams accurately. Look at how we were judged on Curie in 2013. And I think Citrus Circuits illustrates, at least in part, how a team can do better with more focus. Until this year we used shipping containers and a shared classroom for our workshop, yet facilities did not limit really us in the end. Now we're getting better resources and that will make our efforts more productive. We've had some lucky opportunities, but we haven't let them pass us by (let's start with our qualifying schedule in 2013.) The most important task we have is sharing with other teams and programs so they can get better too.

In no way am I defending the tag, but only telling one story of how a team, now program, has become more successful. :]

And as for hero worship, too much is not good, but Dean did want to emulate the sporting culture to promote STEM--to make heroes of engineers and scientists. And we're getting some of that now. It's the nature of sports. Think of Babe Ruth! Interestingly the most visible mentors are not the standard white males, and that probably helps bring a wider diversity into the STEM fields.

[Bob Steele]

http://www.fitday.com/fitness-articles/nutrition/the-8-powerhouse-foods-you-should-be-eating.html#b

[Citrus Dad]

http://www.fitday.com/fitness-articles/nutrition/the-8-powerhouse-foods-you-should-be-eating.html#b

I only see healthy crap here that you would expect from a team from namby pamby Seattle.. Where's the corndogs and cheesecake! And pizza, lots and lots of pizza!:ahh:

(PS, I grew up in Seattle...)

[Woolly]

I only see healthy crap here that you would expect from a team from namby pamby Seattle.. Where's the corndogs and cheesecake! And pizza, lots and lots of pizza!:ahh:

(PS, I grew up in Seattle...)

Avocado though... Guacamole on a corndog? It's so crazy it just might work.

[Mr. Tatorscout]

http://www.fitday.com/fitness-articles/nutrition/the-8-powerhouse-foods-you-should-be-eating.html#b

Bob, I think the Tators learned their lesson in Spokane about eating beans the night before working together in a 10x10 pit all day:ahh: ! Junk food for us, now!

[barn34]

Bacon. Something tells me there'd be bacon involved.

[notmattlythgoe]

Bacon. Something tells me there'd be bacon involved.

I'll give you bacon if you pick us.

[dodar]

Bacon. Something tells me there'd be bacon involved.

But you arent in Galileo. :p

[Ben Martin]

Do you think that teams will start negotiating during the second day?
How would you look at this issue from an alliance captain perspective and as a picked team perspective?

We do this at regionals/districts every now and then, if there a clear delineation of who robots #1 and #2 are from the rest of the pack.

The timing for alliance selection is a huge bonus for the #1 team (if they're good enough that they don't scorch the earth) to get with their #1 pick in the evening to make a joint pick list, if they have a good idea of who it is already.

[barn34]

I'll give you bacon if you pick us.

Now that's how you start a negotiation! ;) I wonder how confusing alliance selections would be if we did pick you guys. I mean, Archimedes and Tesla are sharing fields, I think. So, logistically it could work... Lol.

[notmattlythgoe]

Now that's how you start a negotiation! ;) I wonder how confusing alliance selections would be if we did pick you guys. I mean, Archimedes and Tesla are sharing fields, I think. So, logistically it could work... Lol.

How much more confusing would it be if we snuck a team member into the alliance selections so we could accept?

[dellagd]

Do you think that teams will start negotiating during the second day?
How would you look at this issue from an alliance captain perspective and as a picked team perspective?

I don't know about the word 'negotiating', but teams have always talked to each other as the competitions progresses. Naturally you can't make a pick list together after a single match has gone by, but inter-team communication regarding alliances has been pervasive as long as I've been coaching (a few years). Those conversations have actually been my favorite part of competitions, and the relationships that form as a result. So yes, I do think teams will start discussing potential plans on the second day. Sure, more time would be nice, but going up to talk to another team between matches doesn't take that long.


We do this at regionals/districts every now and then, if there a clear delineation of who robots #1 and #2 are from the rest of the pack.

Yep. Being able to get a jump on scouting decisions for alliance selection is great. If you know who you are going to be with (which is possible even if you're not the #1 alliance), going to sit with that team's scouts and making a very informed decision about the 3rd robot is far better than doing it alone or leaving your alliance captain to do it by his/herself on the field.

Why hide your intentions for first selections as an alliance captain or the top pick until its official? I personally don't subscribe to any reason that teams shouldn't be straightforward and forthcoming about alliance selection. There's no reason to delay realistic discussions, and if you know things will be a certain way, just get started as soon as you can.

[Lil' Lavery]

I wish they'd serve those in the volunteer lounge. Better yet, bring platters full out to the field.

MAR Champs had cheesecake in the volunteer lounge, judge's room, and mentor lounge. :cool:

[XaulZan11]

Why hide your intentions as an alliance captain or a top pick until its official?

The advantage of being the #1 seed is that you can talk to your 1st pick about your 3rd and 4th picks. If you make it clear who you intend to pick, the #2 seed (and potentially more seeds) then also have that same advantage.

[dellagd]

The advantage of being the #1 seed is that you can talk to your 1st pick about your 3rd and 4th picks. If you make it clear who you intend to pick, the #2 seed (and potentially more seeds) then also have that same advantage.

I was referring to intentions as far as making the first pick, I guess I should have been more clear. There are of course many advantages to keeping your scouting information secret for later selections.

As far as keeping 1st selection secrets so that your opposing alliances can't make any assumptions for their 2nd robot, I guess I just don't like withholding that much information. I totally get the tactic, but to me it just feels a little too restrictive. Really, such a situation wouldn't give a very big advantage to another alliance anyway, as if all the teams did good scouting, the top picks would most likely fall the same way regardless of if a slightly lower alliance was privy to what robots would be selected in the first round before them. Teams should try to plan for all situations that may arise in alliance selections and how to best deal with them.

In that position, I'd rather keep open relationships with fellow teams than try to use every power I have to make sure they don't possibly get a slight advantage on us.

[Citrus Dad]

On a more serious note, we game out all of the possible scenarios the night before the last day. I think we had 6 scenarios in 2013 on Friday night and we had a draft list for each one (several overlapped). We even accounted for being rejected. Most events aren't so complex, but it does take time and commitment. Don't think that you can develop a draft list in 10 minutes (or on the arena floor as we've all seen teams do.) Teams behind the No. 1 seed will be in much the same spot as we've been over the past and to be honest we won't do anything much differently than we've done before no matter where we are after qualifying.

Also for teams further down the list, understand that a high alliance captain cannot make any draft commitments to lower seed teams--you may be gone or you might not fit with the other team that they end up selecting. Just be aware of what a high seeded team may be looking for in particular and try to highlight that in a match. Even ask them before a certain match if you should demonstrate a certain task.

[themccannman]

http://www.fitday.com/fitness-articles/nutrition/the-8-powerhouse-foods-you-should-be-eating.html#b

I don't see limes or cheese puffs on here, this is highly problematic.

[PVCpirate]

Why hide your intentions for first selections as an alliance captain or the top pick until its official? I personally don't subscribe to any reason that teams shouldn't be straightforward and forthcoming about alliance selection. There's no reason to delay realistic discussions, and if you know things will be a certain way, just get started as soon as you can.

I think if you're the one seed and you're gonna pick the #2 seed or the obvious best robot, sure go ahead and tell everyone because they would be expecting it anyway. But if I'm at championship and my team has qualified first, and we've had discussions as a team and are planning on digging a bit deeper into the field, I'm going to keep that a bit closer to my vest. If everyone thinks we're going to pick #2, and we come out and pick #10, it's chaos, and that works in our favor. That's just how I would do it, but I think many teams lean more in this direction than towards showing all their cards.

[NoahTappen]

What Makes a Powerhouse thread here: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84608&highlight=powerhouse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85EYyu_GuqM This might help show what it takes to ignite a 'Powerhouse'