[FTC]: Anderson Powerpole Question

[FRC Team CC]

Chief Delphi,

We had a question regarding the Anderson Powerpole Connectors (used to replace the unreliable Tamiya connectors). After following the instructions provided in the FTC Wiring Guide, we found that the connectors came apart really easily, and could just be pulled apart without any effort.

Is this supposed to happen? If not, how can we solve the problem?

Thanks,
Charging Champions

[Foster]

When you say "come apart" do you mean that the pins pull out of the shell? That's an indication that you haven't pushed the pins into the shell far enough.

If you mean that the two ends that mate come apart it means the pins are not in the shell the right way. There is a curve to them that applies the mating surface pressure.

What size are you using?

[FRC Team CC]

We mean that the two ends that are supposed to connect to each other (e.g. the battery end and the charger end) do not click and can be pulled apart very easily.

Here is the link to the Powerpoles that we are using:

http://www.amazon.com/Anderson-Powerpole-Connectors-20-pair/dp/B00GPRIC8Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1430071619&sr=8-1&keywords=Anderson+Powerpole

How can we solve this problem? Is there some pin or clamping device that holds the two ends together?

Thanks,
Charging Champions

[Chinske4296]

They come with two pronged inserts to hold the plugs together... The slide in and as long as those stay in there is no way that the plugs can come undone.

[Chinske4296]

18920

Here's an image of what I am talking about.

[cadandcookies]

One of the other ways you can minimize disconnections is by securing your wiring using zip ties-- if you immobilize the wire on both sides of the connection, I've never seen the small powerpole connectors disconnect. If you're using them as a battery connection and securely fastening your battery (which you should be), you shouldn't encounter any significant issues. Treat your electronics nicely and they will treat you nicely back!

[FRC Team CC]

Thanks to all for responding.

Chinske4296: We didn't receive those parts with our Anderson PowerPole kit. Can we buy them separately online?

Thanks,
Charging Champions

[JimInNJ]

No, they aren't in the kit. Powerwerx stocks them. www.powerwerx.com

[FRC Team CC]

Thanks for posting.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Team CC, what you describe is unusual for these connectors. We have used them for years on our FRC robots without resorting to the locking devices shown above or the other type manufactured by Anderson. Typically the friction alone holds them very tight. It really sounds like the contacts are not fully inserted in the shell. The metal of the contact should almost come out the front of the shell and there should be an audible 'click' when they are inserted properly. Does any part of the metal contact show at the back of the plastic shell?

[Andrew Schuetze]

Team CC, what you describe is unusual for these connectors. We have used them for years on our FRC robots without resorting to the locking devices shown above or the other type manufactured by Anderson. Typically the friction alone holds them very tight. It really sounds like the contacts are not fully inserted in the shell. The metal of the contact should almost come out the front of the shell and there should be an audible 'click' when they are inserted properly. Does any part of the metal contact show at the back of the plastic shell?

I agree with what Al is saying. Can you post some pictures of you power poles as you have built them?

[FRC Team CC]

Sorry for the late response. Here some pictures of one of the Anderson PowerPoles we built, taken from various angles:

[wgardner]

You need to have the wires with the contacts in the connector for them to snap together. Without the wires with the contacts, they will slip in and out.

Check out the 4th picture down on this link (http://www.powerwerx.com/assembly.asp) showing the cutaway view of a connector. The metal bump shown at the end of the connector snaps over the other metal bump on the mating connector. That's what holds them together. Without those, they will slip in and out freely.

[FRC Team CC]

Our problem is that the two connectors are not snapping together (the wire clicks into the connector without a problem).

One way to prevent the connectors from coming apart is to use the pronged inserts, as Chinske4296 was saying. Are the two connectors supposed to click together easily, or do we have to use the inserts mentioned above?

Thanks,
Charging Champions

[wgardner]

Can you show pictures of your connectors with the wires in them? Again, without the wires, they won't click together at all. They will only click together and be hard to pull apart once the wires are in place.

Some teams will push the wires with the pins into the connectors but not enough for the metalic crimped part to fully snap over the metal spring in the connector. If this snap hasn't happened, then the springs won't hold the two mated connectors together.

[GeeTwo]

If you look into the connector from the end opposite the wire, the only metal you should be able to see is the contact (curved piece of metal crimped onto the wire). If you can still see part of the flat spring which is visible in an empty housing, you haven't pushed the contact in far enough.

Also, as far as dovetailing multiple pieces together - with two contacts, the connection is pretty solid even without roll pins or glue. As the cluster gets larger, external forces can create more torque and pull the connectors apart. We have found that as long as the connector is reasonably close to square (e.g. 3x4, not 2x6), a single thin tie wrap around the groove meant for the roll pins is a fair way to keep the connector together, yet allow it to be taken apart later if you need to swap out a motor or other component.

[Foster]

When you say "come apart" do you mean that the pins pull out of the shell? That's an indication that you haven't pushed the pins into the shell far enough.

If you mean that the two ends that mate come apart it means the pins are not in the shell the right way. There is a curve to them that applies the mating surface pressure.

What size are you using?

I posted this on the 25th, no answer, can you make the connection up and try.

Also no sure on something as simple as Power Poles can drag this long on CD...

[Al Skierkiewicz]

FTC,
The connector pairs should mate with significant friction to hold them together, provided you do not have tension on the wires that will pull them apart. It is possible that you have bent contacts (as shown in the Powerwerx link above.) If the contacts are bent, (or are not free to move within the housing), the contacts will not mate properly. This occurs for two significant reasons. The first is using an improper crimper. This causes the terminal to be bent and will result in a lot of force needed during contact insertion. The second results from soldering the terminal which may result in excess solder causing the same type of misalignment as with improper crimping. While many crimpers will state they can crimp these contacts, only those specifically designed for APP contacts actually do the job.

[FRC Team CC]

Here are the pictures of the Anderson Powerpoles:

It looks like they are inserted correctly. When they are snapped onto another connector, we can hear the click, but they still come apart pretty easily.

[wgardner]

I don't see anything glaringly wrong with your pictures (though the way you're connecting red and black to each other is non-standard). And you're putting the wires in both ends, then connecting both ends, and hearing the click? If that's what you're doing, I don't know what else could be wrong. Are there any local teams you could work with in person?

I've attached a few (poor) photos of some of the powerpoles on one of our robots for comparison.

[FRC Team CC]

Wgardner: Thanks for all of your help.

The Powerpole stay together, but are very loosely connected and can be pulled apart with minimal effort. Looks like we might have to use the forks to keep them together.

Thanks,
Charging Champions

[GeeTwo]

Wgardner: Thanks for all of your help.

The Powerpole stay together, but are very loosely connected and can be pulled apart with minimal effort. Looks like we might have to use the forks to keep them together.

Thanks,
Charging Champions

If they don't stay together without additional help, they may not be making good electrical contact, either. Here is a document from the ham radio community (http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Public%20Service/TrainingModules/Technical/Anderson%20powerpole.pdf) that has a bit more detail, including the standard configuration of red-black pairs. The standard mnemonic is "Red Right Tongue Top". With the wires toward you, and the dovetail "tongues" on top, red will be on your right. The pictures shown in the ham doc and in the post by wgardner above are taken from the contact side, so red is on the left when the tongues are on top.

[Foster]

+1

K3FXS here and I've used the above PDF on building my cables. They stick together and they stay together. I'm not sure what you are doing that makes them easy to pull apart. I've had radios suspended by the power pole and they have not fallen.

[FRC Team CC]

Thanks for all of your help. We will post on this thread when we are able to fix the issue.

Thanks,
Charging Champions

[RecycledElectro]

Our problem is that the two connectors are not snapping together (the wire clicks into the connector without a problem)

Do You mean that the red and black connectors on one end slide apart easily, or that a pair of red and black slide apart easily from another pair of one red and one black connectors?

Andrew

[Greg Needel]

On a similar topic, anyone know why they used the standard Tamaya connector on the new core power module? Has anyone said if it will be allowed to change that to anderson also.

It seems silly not to have Anderson connectors there, when they are integral to the rest of the system.


http://modernroboticsinc.com/content/images/thumbs/0000006_core-power-distribution-module_300.png

[orangemoore]

On a similar topic, anyone know why they used the standard Tamaya connector on the new core power module? Has anyone said if it will be allowed to change that to anderson also.

It seems silly not to have Anderson connectors there, when they are integral to the rest of the system.


http://modernroboticsinc.com/content/images/thumbs/0000006_core-power-distribution-module_300.png

I think they kept it as a Tamaya connector because it is the standard for a Tetrix battery.

I know for a fact you are a allowed to convert them at least for last year. It is either in the old manuals or hidden on the FTC forum.

Edit: Check the Game Manual Part 1 Rule 10.c/g

[PHFTC]

This was discussed over on the FTC forums http://ftcforum.usfirst.org/showthread.php?4181-Android-system-module-specifications-are-online&p=13534#post13534

and an earlier thread I guess. Completely agree, that's weak point we could be done with!!!!!!!!! Think of how many dissapointments that connector has caused - I bet and order of magnitude more than Samantha.


On a similar topic, anyone know why they used the standard Tamaya connector on the new core power module? Has anyone said if it will be allowed to change that to anderson also.

It seems silly not to have Anderson connectors there, when they are integral to the rest of the system.


http://modernroboticsinc.com/content/images/thumbs/0000006_core-power-distribution-module_300.png

[skatefriday]

On a similar topic, anyone know why they used the standard Tamaya connector on the new core power module? Has anyone said if it will be allowed to change that to anderson also.

It seems silly not to have Anderson connectors there, when they are integral to the rest of the system.


http://modernroboticsinc.com/content/images/thumbs/0000006_core-power-distribution-module_300.png

It was a cost thing from a manufacturing perspective.

At worlds they had official FTC volunteers in the pits that would swap out
Tamiya connectors for you. FIRST knows and acknowledges
these are problematic. You'll be able to swap in powerpoles
and it's very easy to do.

[timytamy]

It was a cost thing from a manufacturing perspective.

So it's cheaper to buy and tool for 6x APP + 1x Tamaya than 7x APP???

[RecycledElectro]

Their logic on the different connector for the battery may have been that nobody would ever need to plug the battery into any place other than where the battery goes, and that many modules had been smoked by plugging in a recharged battery into the wrong place. Keeping 2 connectors actually simplifies things for the person plugging in a fresh battery.

It also prevents teams who have old parts from having to rewire their batteries or make adapters.

The need for interoperability with legacy systems always seems to mess things up. There is an old story that relates the size of the Space Shuttle all the way back to the width of a horse's rear-end in ancient Rome. Snopes talks about it here: http://www.snopes.com/history/american/gauge.asp

FIRST has to balance many teams in many different situations. Things that help me with a rookie team drive my best friend nuts with his long-established team. (He still opposes allowing EV3s into competitions.)

Andrew

If anyone can not get PowerPoles to work, look for any car with Amateur Radio / Radio Operator license plates. (Search Google for what they look like in Your state.) The driver will almost certainly help You with PowerPoles, or refer You to someone who can. We HAMs have been using PowerPoles for many years. We almost always want to help, especially if electricity is involved.

Or, search for Amateur Radio clubs in Your area.

[MattRain]

Their logic on the different connector for the battery may have been that nobody would ever need to plug the battery into any place other than where the battery goes, and that many modules had been smoked by plugging in a recharged battery into the wrong place. Keeping 2 connectors actually simplifies things for the person plugging in a fresh battery.


Talking with the FTC reps at Worlds, the reason that they stayed with the Tamaya connecter was cost. It wasn't really in issue of putting a connector on the Power Box, but having to change out the batteries as well. Along with that, it would allow teams to use the old batteries from past years, without having to change the connection. Over half the teams out there still use the tamaya connector. In Arizona for example, only 6 out of the 60+ teams from the 14-15 season, had their batteries changed to the PowerPoles. (2 of them are my teams, 1 of them was a team we helped out using all of our older parts and our batteries..(haha, running three teams on 10 batteries was interesting.))

Of course its something that every team should do, but some teams can't afford it. Hopefully that is not such a problem this year though, as most of the new control system uses the Power Poles.

My teams are looking at setting up a station at every event in Arizona to switch everyone over / test batteries. (Like you would see at worlds)

About the batteries being plugged in wrong. According to the reps that I talked to at Worlds, even if you plug a battery into the motor ports (etc), there is a "fail safe" (Don't know the actual term) that will stop the flow of electricity into the box. (Granted, I'm not about to try it out when my teams get their boxes.)

[Foster]

If anyone can not get PowerPoles to work, look for any car with Amateur Radio / Radio Operator license plates. (Search Google for what they look like in Your state.) The driver will almost certainly help You with PowerPoles, or refer You to someone who can. We HAMs have been using PowerPoles for many years. We almost always want to help, especially if electricity is involved.

Or, search for Amateur Radio clubs in Your area.

Green Nissan Cube with the K3FXS plates. I don't carry the connectors and crimp tool all the time, but happy to help. They are in my shop no more than an hour away.

I tried in the start of this thread to help, asked about how they put them together bud didn't get an answer. So I went off to work on other problems.