View Full Version : 900's Championship Cheesecaking Chronicles
marshall
26-04-2015, 15:21
Can we stop calling it "cheesecake" yet? I've never been one for euphemisms. I prefer to call things what they are. In this case, it should be called the collaborative effort of multiple teams to build one of the craziest contraptions I think I have ever seen in my 11 years of FRC experience. Granted, that's a mouthful so maybe "cheesecake" is easier to say.
I'm very proud of my team. My students are amazing and our other mentors are a dream team so let me start by describing the robot that my team constructed over build season. It was an impressive feat of engineering. It had a swerve drivetrain (yeah, first time we've ever done that and we did it during build season). It had an onboard Nvidia Jetson board that was processing video footage in realtime using cascade classifiers to detect the recycling bins (which don't have retroreflective tape).
Mechanically we built an arm that could extend over 7 feet and grab a recycling bin from the step. It could do it autonomously and then slam it into the ground before doing it a second time. It wasn't fast but it was awesome. Oh, did I mention that along the way we had to redesign adapter plates to drive the arm using two AndyMark 4-Stage GEMs? We tried it with a single 5 stage but we corkscrewed a 1/2" steel shaft. We also destroyed some AndyMark raw boxes. We dealt with alignment issues and taught our students about overhung loads at not one but two regionals and even at the championship.
We also used carbon fiber tubing to reduce the weight of the arm so we could actually get a bin from the step without tipping over (at least all the way). We had originally built a claw that was made from balsa wood and carbon fiber layups that our students did in our own lab. That claw didn't work mechanically though so we ended up having to redesign it and rebuild it for our second regional using aluminum tubing that was bent by hand because we couldn't easily get access to a bender.
And let me tell you, that second regional was a doozy. We were a "sleeper pick" by the number one alliance. They picked us because we complemented their alliance and we helped them boost their scores high enough to come out above the others' average. We helped them go on to win the event. We couldn't have done it without them and they couldn't have done it without us. We worked collaboratively.
It was an amazing robot but I'm not proud of the robot. I'm proud of what my team did to build it and make it work. This all brings me to what happened on the Curie field between my team and three of the other best teams we've ever had the pleasure of working with.
Much has been said about it already. Some people seem to think that 1114 or 148 pressured a poor helpless 900 and 1923 into doing whatever they said... HAH! As if. Have you even met my team? We built a 7 foot lever arm supported by two 1/2" steel shafts with 1/8" keys trying to drive a dynamic 20 pound load... we're not just stubborn, we're insane. No, no one pressured us into anything.
It all happened because we were hungry to win. We knew getting those cans off the step was the key to winning. Over build season we built a robot to do it after all. We built that robot for regionals and we knew it wasn't enough for championships but we had to get there first. We knew what it would take to win. We had seen 1114 working on a really complicated mechanism in their pit and we decided maybe they were on to something. While our drive team was playing matches and keeping "Go Big" (that's the robot's name by the way, the practice robot is named "Go Home") working on Friday the pit crew and scouts were hard at work trying to find out what it would take to mount those mechanisms onto our drive base.
It turned out what it would take was a new drive base. Swerve is heavy and hard to program. It's a great drivetrain but it wasn't needed for what we were going to do. If this was going to work, it was going to take some out of the box thinking. So we did what we do... We bought more stuff from AndyMark (thank you to all of the AM crew, you are all amazing). We bought an AM14U2 kit (KOP chassis) and a pneumatic kit. Our pit crew went about assembling a new drive base and getting a crash course in pneumatics. We left the pits on Friday night with a plan and a new drive base. The electronics from the old robot were stripped once we were done with our last match.
We left and then did what teams do in St Louis. We went to the arch and had dinner. Then we went back to the hotel. Another mentor on the team stayed a little later and got some contact info for another mentor on 1114. We had gone back to the hotel with the plan to put the KOP drive base into CAD and then stuff the electronics in. It was a miracle they all fit. Then, we found out something else from our Canadian friends. The drive base we had assembled needed to be even smaller.
So we made it smaller and stuffed the electronics in tighter. We then sent the CAD files over to 1114. Yeah, that's right, two teams working collaboratively in CAD the night before alliance selections to build a robot from parts at the arena. It was an impressive feat. It wasn't over though. It needed to go from CAD to robot the next day. It also wasn't a sure thing. Someone else could have chosen us for alliance selections just to mess this plan up... if anyone even knew what we were doing.
The next morning we took the robot apart and then set to work rebuilding it all. We have a time lapse video of it coming together. Zebracorns and Simbotics mentors and students working shoulder to shoulder. Our pit became a tangled mess of components, tools, robot parts, and human beings. I'm sure it was a spectacle for all of those around us.
The integration testing was a challenge. 1114's programmer had code written for this whacky contraption but we kept running into issues with our Talon SRXs in PWM mode. It was likely a bunch of loose cables but we solved it by just adding more of them onto the robot. We ended up with 10 of them on there instead of the 7 we had planned.
The device, dubbed "Crossbow" by 1114 was a masterpiece of engineering. It used electric solenoids as firing pins to launch harpoons sprung by surgical tubing at the recycling bins. These harpoons then retracted along with the 4 stands that were spread out from the robot. The stands came together in a tangled mess of wires, pneumatic tubing, nylon line, and aluminum. It was spectacular. And there were safety stops build into every aspect of this thing. There were pins built into it for transport, along with multiple lines in case of failure, which wasn't likely, the lines were dynamic and designed to withstand far more force than those harpoons could ever put on them.
At this point, it was about 2:00 in the afternoon and we had missed all of the inspectors packing up on the Curie field but Ed, being the amazing LRI he is, had us covered. Did I mention that while we were doing all of this, the rest of the alliance was out winning the Curie field? We missed the handshake with the opposing alliance in the finals because we were packing up the robot and bringing it to the field inspection station.
The inspection process reminded me of inspections from when I was a student. It was a frenzy of duct tape, filing, and zip ties. The inspectors were fantastic. They were helpful, courteous, and kept a good sense of humor throughout the process. It was intense but a lot of fun. We had to trim about 6 pounds of weight from the robot. We dropped the steel weights on each of the stands and then went on to cut out some wire and surgical tubing. Did I mention the bill of materials? According to the inspector, it was one step above a napkin. I told him we were going to give it to him on a napkin but we decided typing it in Notepad was a little better. I can't thank the inspectors enough, they were great to work with even though they didn't cut us any slack.
Once we were through with inspection we went about practicing the setup and teardown of this contraption. It was a complicated monstrosity. Four pods plus the robot. We had it down though. It could be setup quickly and transported onto the field. If you saw us on the side of Einstein, that's what we were doing.
Was it an elaborate ploy? A threat of mutually assured destruction in a literal arms race? Maybe. Maybe not. We were ready to deploy it and it had been tested. I don't know if it would have worked on the field and I don't care. The experience of working alongside 1114, 148, and 1923 to build something so insanely complicated so quickly was astonishing. We now have some incredible stories to tell and we're going home with another banner. We were on the number three alliance in the world and for that, I'm ecstatic.
We took a robot built collaboratively over the course of a day all the way to Einstein. That's the stuff of legends in FRC. The students and mentors of 900, 1923, 148, and 1114 aren't going to forget this experience. We worked well together and created something amazing. We fought hard and did what we had to do to win. In the end, we didn't make it as far as we were hoping to, but we were ready to go all the way. The hunger was there.
To our alliance partners, thank you. Everyone on 900 is awestruck by what we did together. The students and mentors of 148, 1923, and 1114 are an inspiration. It was a pleasure working with you.
I'll leave you with something I've been pondering. I really want to know why it takes 3 days to build a robot. Our alliance can do it in 7 hours and we can take it to Einstein. ;)
Kevin Leonard
26-04-2015, 15:27
You guys are an incredible team and this is one of the coolest and most inspiring stories I've ever heard.
Did you end up with the harpoons, or does 1114 have them?
Great to hear the story behind your "cheese caking".
Do you guys still have the robot that was built during the build season, or is it in pieces now? I feel like it's still sad to just let go of a project that you have worked on for so long.
jaustinpage
26-04-2015, 15:46
We have one of the harpoons, and we have kept "go big" intact.
Ichlieberoboter
26-04-2015, 15:47
That's really cool. I saw that video you guys posted of it on Instagram and was awestruck. And as a side note, I think this is the longest Chief Delphi post I've ever seen.
We held on to one of the harpoons, and we're definitely going to be messing around with that stuff in the offseason.
Our original robot is still mostly mechanically intact, though we had to strip out the electronics for the midgetbot. It'll come back together easily enough.
Cheesecake is a euphemism?
As far as I recall (and looking back confirms), cheesecaking was allowed, and even encouraged (if formally in violation of the rules) until the answer to Q416 came out o/a 16 March. It became explicitly legal (and apparently still encouraged) on 17 March. Why would an encouraged activity need a euphemism?
wesbass23
26-04-2015, 16:12
http://i.imgur.com/BJctWLc.jpg
Wow, this is amazing.
Not only were you all EXTREMELY GP with your alliance members, but you collaborated and worked extremely hard on the bot. I can tell that this idea and design were extremely smart, especially on such a short notice. It was a risk, and quite frankly, I think it was worth it.
I feel inspired.
http://i.imgur.com/BJctWLc.jpg
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1458711#post1458711
Did you have a team member in the alliance station during the elimination rounds while you worked on altering your robot?
marshall
26-04-2015, 18:51
Did you have a team member in the alliance station during the elimination rounds while you worked on altering your robot?
Are you asking if we had another member of our team helping with the bins? If so then no. The others had it well in hand.
Marshall, your post is amazing in its entiret. You have covered all of the points of interests that I personally enjoy. I should have looked it before I came to my own conclusions about your teams experience with the crazy insane transformation of your robot.
I know the LRI for the Curie division, I have heard many wild and intriguing tales about the testing and inspection of your transformed bot. Congratulations to your team and the highly respected alliance that y'all were apart of, best wishes to you all.
Only one question for your team though. Once y'all saw the scores of the robonaut's alliance along with the dominant highroller's alliance did your alliance think it a wise decision to continue using the harpoons?
Can we stop calling it "cheesecake" yet? I've never been one for euphemisms. I prefer to call things what they are. In this case, it should be called the collaborative effort of multiple teams to build one of the craziest contraptions I think I have ever seen in my 11 years of FRC experience. Granted, that's a mouthful so maybe "cheesecake" is easier to say.
I'm very proud of my team. My students are amazing and our other mentors are a dream team so let me start by describing the robot that my team constructed over build season. It was an impressive feat of engineering. It had a swerve drivetrain (yeah, first time we've ever done that and we did it during build season). It had an onboard Nvidia Jetson board that was processing video footage in realtime using cascade classifiers to detect the recycling bins (which don't have retroreflective tape).
Mechanically we built an arm that could extend over 7 feet and grab a recycling bin from the step. It could do it autonomously and then slam it into the ground before doing it a second time. It wasn't fast but it was awesome. Oh, did I mention that along the way we had to redesign adapter plates to drive the arm using two AndyMark 4-Stage GEMs? We tried it with a single 5 stage but we corkscrewed a 1/2" steel shaft. We also destroyed some AndyMark raw boxes. We dealt with alignment issues and taught our students about overhung loads at not one but two regionals and even at the championship.
We also used carbon fiber tubing to reduce the weight of the arm so we could actually get a bin from the step without tipping over (at least all the way). We had originally built a claw that was made from balsa wood and carbon fiber layups that our students did in our own lab. That claw didn't work mechanically though so we ended up having to redesign it and rebuild it for our second regional using aluminum tubing that was bent by hand because we couldn't easily get access to a bender.
And let me tell you, that second regional was a doozy. We were a "sleeper pick" by the number one alliance. They picked us because we complemented their alliance and we helped them boost their scores high enough to come out above the others' average. We helped them go on to win the event. We couldn't have done it without them and they couldn't have done it without us. We worked collaboratively.
It was an amazing robot but I'm not proud of the robot. I'm proud of what my team did to build it and make it work. This all brings me to what happened on the Curie field between my team and three of the other best teams we've ever had the pleasure of working with.
Much has been said about it already. Some people seem to think that 1114 or 148 pressured a poor helpless 900 and 1923 into doing whatever they said... HAH! As if. Have you even met my team? We built a 7 foot lever arm supported by two 1/2" steel shafts with 1/8" keys trying to drive a dynamic 20 pound load... we're not just stubborn, we're insane. No, no one pressured us into anything.
It all happened because we were hungry to win. We knew getting those cans off the step was the key to winning. Over build season we built a robot to do it after all. We built that robot for regionals and we knew it wasn't enough for championships but we had to get there first. We knew what it would take to win. We had seen 1114 working on a really complicated mechanism in their pit and we decided maybe they were on to something. While our drive team was playing matches and keeping "Go Big" (that's the robot's name by the way, the practice robot is named "Go Home") working on Friday the pit crew and scouts were hard at work trying to find out what it would take to mount those mechanisms onto our drive base.
It turned out what it would take was a new drive base. Swerve is heavy and hard to program. It's a great drivetrain but it wasn't needed for what we were going to do. If this was going to work, it was going to take some out of the box thinking. So we did what we do... We bought more stuff from AndyMark (thank you to all of the AM crew, you are all amazing). We bought an AM14U2 kit (KOP chassis) and a pneumatic kit. Our pit crew went about assembling a new drive base and getting a crash course in pneumatics. We left the pits on Friday night with a plan and a new drive base. The electronics from the old robot were stripped once we were done with our last match.
We left and then did what teams do in St Louis. We went to the arch and had dinner. Then we went back to the hotel. Another mentor on the team stayed a little later and got some contact info for another mentor on 1114. We had gone back to the hotel with the plan to put the KOP drive base into CAD and then stuff the electronics in. It was a miracle they all fit. Then, we found out something else from our Canadian friends. The drive base we had assembled needed to be even smaller.
So we made it smaller and stuffed the electronics in tighter. We then sent the CAD files over to 1114. Yeah, that's right, two teams working collaboratively in CAD the night before alliance selections to build a robot from parts at the arena. It was an impressive feat. It wasn't over though. It needed to go from CAD to robot the next day. It also wasn't a sure thing. Someone else could have chosen us for alliance selections just to mess this plan up... if anyone even knew what we were doing.
The next morning we took the robot apart and then set to work rebuilding it all. We have a time lapse video of it coming together. Zebracorns and Simbotics mentors and students working shoulder to shoulder. Our pit became a tangled mess of components, tools, robot parts, and human beings. I'm sure it was a spectacle for all of those around us.
The integration testing was a challenge. 1114's programmer had code written for this whacky contraption but we kept running into issues with our Talon SRXs in PWM mode. It was likely a bunch of loose cables but we solved it by just adding more of them onto the robot. We ended up with 10 of them on there instead of the 7 we had planned.
The device, dubbed "Crossbow" by 1114 was a masterpiece of engineering. It used electric solenoids as firing pins to launch harpoons sprung by surgical tubing at the recycling bins. These harpoons then retracted along with the 4 stands that were spread out from the robot. The stands came together in a tangled mess of wires, pneumatic tubing, nylon line, and aluminum. It was spectacular. And there were safety stops build into every aspect of this thing. There were pins built into it for transport, along with multiple lines in case of failure, which wasn't likely, the lines were dynamic and designed to withstand far more force than those harpoons could ever put on them.
At this point, it was about 2:00 in the afternoon and we had missed all of the inspectors packing up on the Curie field but Ed, being the amazing LRI he is, had us covered. Did I mention that while we were doing all of this, the rest of the alliance was out winning the Curie field? We missed the handshake with the opposing alliance in the finals because we were packing up the robot and bringing it to the field inspection station.
The inspection process reminded me of inspections from when I was a student. It was a frenzy of duct tape, filing, and zip ties. The inspectors were fantastic. They were helpful, courteous, and kept a good sense of humor throughout the process. It was intense but a lot of fun. We had to trim about 6 pounds of weight from the robot. We dropped the steel weights on each of the stands and then went on to cut out some wire and surgical tubing. Did I mention the bill of materials? According to the inspector, it was one step above a napkin. I told him we were going to give it to him on a napkin but we decided typing it in Notepad was a little better. I can't thank the inspectors enough, they were great to work with even though they didn't cut us any slack.
Once we were through with inspection we went about practicing the setup and teardown of this contraption. It was a complicated monstrosity. Four pods plus the robot. We had it down though. It could be setup quickly and transported onto the field. If you saw us on the side of Einstein, that's what we were doing.
Was it an elaborate ploy? A threat of mutually assured destruction in a literal arms race? Maybe. Maybe not. We were ready to deploy it and it had been tested. I don't know if it would have worked on the field and I don't care. The experience of working alongside 1114, 148, and 1923 to build something so insanely complicated so quickly was astonishing. We now have some incredible stories to tell and we're going home with another banner. We were on the number three alliance in the world and for that, I'm ecstatic.
We took a robot built collaboratively over the course of a day all the way to Einstein. That's the stuff of legends in FRC. The students and mentors of 900, 1923, 148, and 1114 aren't going to forget this experience. We worked well together and created something amazing. We fought hard and did what we had to do to win. In the end, we didn't make it as far as we were hoping to, but we were ready to go all the way. The hunger was there.
To our alliance partners, thank you. Everyone on 900 is awestruck by what we did together. The students and mentors of 148, 1923, and 1114 are an inspiration. It was a pleasure working with you.
I'll leave you with something I've been pondering. I really want to know why it takes 3 days to build a robot. Our alliance can do it in 7 hours and we can take it to Einstein. ;)
Well now that thats cleared up, amazing story. We (team 1225) were speculating what you guys were doing down at Einstein when setting Crossbow up. We pretty much speculated the whole time, watching through binoculars, having a couple members get close up looks. We pretty much knew that it had something to do with the recycling bins, but we weren't sure of how it worked, how many of them it got, etc. Until on the bus ride home in the middle of the night I found a short video clip of your harpoon firing. Anyways, good job to you and your alliance for getting to semifinals in Einstein.
Such a great story - you make this particular alumnus quite proud! How would you prevent this setup from getting in the way of accessing the landfill?
Let us know when you have some video of the machine posted.
Finally a video!
I am sorry for the wait. I had the video ready, but wasn't able to post until I got back to NC.
I hope this thread and video clears up any confusion about the spirit with which this awesome collaborative effort was accomplished. We were not forced to do anything and in fact willingly did what was necessary to benefit our friends on team 1114, 148, and 1923.
Personally I experienced the most collaboration and hard work come together between teams in those 7 hours than I ever have in FRC. What an amazing experience.
Anyway, here's what everyone has been waiting for. I'm sure there will be some better footage out by 1114 soon.
https://youtu.be/-uyr-WSKnbQ
What Team 900 accomplished this weekend was nothing short of amazing. Their determination and tenacity in integrating our "Frog and Lily" setup into their newly built kitbot was at levels I've never seen before. They were constantly in our pit early in the event to ask us questions about what we were working on and how they could get it on their robot. I've never seen a team so focused on in event modifications. It was honour to be on the same alliance as a team with a culture that matches ours so closely.
PayneTrain
27-04-2015, 01:37
I just want to say that 900 is a dope team and we wish we could have pants that are half as magical. This is the kind of work 422 wishes we could have the chance to do; we have mad respect to your whole team and we'll see you around.
Munchskull
27-04-2015, 01:49
I think that this is the craziest, most insane, wild, and awe inspiring act of in competitions build I have ever seen and I dare say will see in a while. Wish I could have been at championships to see it in person.
Justin Montois
27-04-2015, 09:59
Very cool. Just sad we didn't get to see it on the field.
I'm going to pause for a second and put on my United Therapeutics voice.
United Therapeutics is proud to sponsor Team 900. Your story is the one I've been telling all morning as I see everyone in the office. The one I'm going to tell in my meetings at new employee orientations to teach them what FIRST is all about. The one I've already told to our CEO (and she LOVED it.)
Zebracorns are the team that did everything in their power to be the best alliance partner for the teams that believed in them. You guys worked your tails off, and it totally paid off.
I've been saying all along how defining and inspiring it was to work on 1923's cheesecake with the Robowranglers - but dang. Ours was easy compared to you. You put in the long haul, and I'm so happy not only to see it work, but to see how gracefully your team is handling the backlash from the uninformed.
So proud to represent a sponsor of both the Zebracorns and The MidKnight Inventors. #teamUnither forever.
Marshal, Austin and the rest of the Zebracorns,
Thanks so much for the post and explaining to the community the effort your team put into your original robot as well as the insanity you went through at Championships to build a second legal competition robot. My team competed with you in Palmetto and North Carolina and we know the struggles you went through with your robot and have a good idea of how many design iterations you went through at those events to get that awesome grabber working that way you wanted. Though we certainly would have preferred to come out on top in the NC Finals, we have no complaints to coming in second to three teams with such class and respect for FIRST's core values.
My team was disappointed to not be selected to play on the Newton stage at Championships this year. After a quick check we saw that the Zebracorns were the only one of eight NC teams continuing to play. We made sure that each of those teams knew that you were one the #1 Curie alliance and were collaborating on an awesome 'secret' project. ALL the NC teams were ready to cheer on the Zebracorns when you got to the field. We just wish you had the chance to put all your hard work into action on Einstein.
Great job. Thanks for sharing the behind the scenes story. (You know I was going to ask the next time we met!)
Tom Line
27-04-2015, 11:38
Marshal, this was a great read. I enjoyed it as much as I do any of the build blogs. After watching you guys get this working in the pits, I was very disappointed they didn't get a chance to run it on field.
Jon Stratis
27-04-2015, 11:51
As one of the inspectors responsible for the final inspection of this contraption, I can say with certainty that all teams were fully involved with the inspection portion - there was no indication at all that any team was getting pushed around or told to stand in the corner while the big boys worked - it looked like a true, collaborative effort.
As far as the inspection went... It was a long inspection. There were a few things to fix - a couple of lbs of weight, some pneumatic plumbing issues, and a software version issue come to mind - but the teams eagerly complied and got to work getting everything fixed. The bill of materials did look hastily put together, but the entire thing was! In ordinary circumstances (ie initial inspection at an event), I would have made the team go back and spend a little time beefing it up to be more like what everyone expects. In this situation though, while they did need to have a BOM it wouldn't be fair to delay them and keep them off Einstein because it wasn't professional looking enough.
I attached a pic of the inspection process, sent to me by Jake Fischer, who I happened to run into Saturday evening after ceremonies were over. You can see, we didn't take inspection of this lightly - not with 4 LRI's participating and looking at it!
You can see, we didn't take inspection of this lightly - not with 4 LRI's participating and looking at it!
I want to take this opportunity to thank all the inspectors we worked with over the weekend. On Wednesday we approached Ed Sparks, the Curie LRI, to show him what we had been working on. We wanted to get the inspectors involved in this process as early as possible, so we could get feedback on them to make sure this "Frog and Lily" setup met all robot and safety rules. Later Ed got Al involved, and both were extremely professional and helpful. On Saturday, Frank Merrick came by our pit to give us the final approval on the concept, especially in regards to safety. Once we picked 900 and started integrating into their robot, we had an army of division LRIs who worked with us on the inspection process. Overall I blown away by their level of excellence and focus on the job. I want to thank all of them for creating a "team first" atmosphere. This is what FRC is all about. In the past I've been very vocal about my frustration with processes that are not team friendly, but these folks were the exact opposite of that.
marshall
27-04-2015, 12:13
I want to take this opportunity to thank all the inspectors we worked with over the weekend. On Wednesday we approached Ed Sparks, the Curie LRI, to show him what we had been working on. We wanted to get the inspectors involved in this process as early as possible, so we could get feedback on them to make sure this "Frog and Lily" setup met all robot and safety rules. Later Ed got Al involved, and both were extremely professional and helpful. On Saturday, Frank Merrick came by our pit to give us the final approval on the concept, especially in regards to safety. Once we picked 900 and started integrating into their robot, we had an army of division LRIs who worked with us on the inspection process. Overall I blown away by their level of excellence and focus on the job. I want to thank all of them for creating a "team first" atmosphere. This is what FRC is all about. In the past I've been very vocal about my frustration with processes that are not team friendly, but these folks were the exact opposite of that.
I can only reiterate exactly what Karthik has said. It was simultaneously one of the toughest and easily the best inspections that I've ever been through. You were all the epitome of gracious professionalism.
At one point, one of you pointed to "1114" written in sharpie on one of the aluminum poles and asked if it was a model number. At the time the joke went over my head but I was thinking back on that on the bus ride home and just cracked up.
And don't worry, next time the mentor who wrote up the BOM in Notepad will have Excel installed. He has been properly admonished for not having a locally installed spreadsheet app. Man cannot survive on Google Docs alone. ;)
Seriously, thank you to all of the inspectors. You were all amazing. Also, a massive thank you to the lady from NI who happened to have the updated driver station software on a flash drive. You are amazing!
I have known 900/Zebracorns since they were founded when I mentored a different rookie team 'across town'. From the very beginning, they have understood FIRST's core values and have always been willing to work with other teams and help out any way they can.
As Lead Robot Inspector for the NC Regional, I see their team members throughout the pits during our event helping other teams resolve problems and helping them become as competitive as possible. They do this whether their own robot is doing well or having issues. 900 is a team you want at your event.
It is GREAT to see them have the chance to work with some of the best teams in FIRST. The experience will only make them stronger and I am sure they in turn will make North Carolina stronger in the FIRST competitions.
Dominick Ferone
27-04-2015, 12:42
It had an onboard Nvidia Jetson board that was processing video footage in realtime using cascade classifiers to detect the recycling bins (which don't have retroreflective tape).
I'm really interested to hear more about this... and how it worked.
I'm really interested to hear more about this... and how it worked.
Dominick,
We have our students working on a white paper. We'll be sure to have them post it when they're done!
marshall
27-04-2015, 12:50
I'm really interested to hear more about this... and how it worked.
We are going to get a white paper out as soon as we can. Here is a link to the PDF version of the presentation we had up on our screens in the pits for Curie: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7SC9BMzdll7RVdra2pTMjBoT1k&authuser=0
You can get the missing video over here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1ZSzxw84So
And one of it in action here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqHk50xX1_A
We were fortunate that Nvidia took an interest and we're hoping to follow up with them as well. We're tired of the same old vision targets and dead reckoning autonomous routines. We've been striving for the last few years to bring computer vision into our designs and this year we saw a huge payoff. I'm hoping it continues to improve and our new contacts over at Nvidia are going to help improve even further.
Dominick Ferone
27-04-2015, 12:54
Dominick,
We have our students working on a white paper. We'll be sure to have them post it when they're done!
Sweet because this may be something I have our programmers do just as an off season challenge.
To add to Jon's comments, the inspection took a while but was fun and intense. All teams were involved and were very appreciative of the inspectors even when we pointed out issues. The teams clearly worked closely together and the final robot was quite impressive. This will be one of those inspections I will never forget not only because of the robot and the situation, but because of the students we got to interface with and how gracious they were in such a tense situation.
Joe Johnson
27-04-2015, 13:29
I saw these at the Championships just off to the right of the Einstein fields, I was HOPING to see these in action and was completely deflated when they didn't get on the field.
But perhaps not for the reason most of you are thinking.
I wanted this to happen because I think that this would have be the moment that 1114 and Karthik had finally put a stake into the heart of Cheesecaking - The moment those harpoons had won a World Championship, I would have sung like the Coroner in the Wizard of Oz:
As Coroner I must aver, I thoroughly examined her, and she's not only merely dead, she's really most sincerely dead. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0032138/quotes)
Team 900, no disrespect, but I believe your story is a horror show, start to finish.
If the Harpoons had taken the field and carried the day on Einstein, Pandora's box would have been opened so far and wide that everyone would see the problems that Cheesecaking pose: From that day forth, for the lower 90% of teams, the World Championships would become an exercise in whether and when to sell their souls to the devil.
Our team built a robot, we love our robot, but as soon as it becomes clear that we have no chance of making it to Einstein, it's time to figure out how we can toss that robot in the dumpster and build a platter to hold cheesecake (largely) conceived of, designed & built by a team that still has a chance to get to the Big Show.
It is my sincere hope that FIRST can figure out a way to prevent this in the future.
Joe J.
Al Skierkiewicz
27-04-2015, 13:43
Everyone,
Thank you for the nod to the inspection staff. We are happy to be of help, you really challenged us. This device/assembly/(add your own words) was a challenge to evaluate for legality under the robot rules and to believe it to be safe for the teams and any human close by. I am happy to report that everyone we were involved with, acted with the utmost GP in assisting us with the process. It was obvious that the design team had thought and planned for everything I thought might be an issue. While scary in looks and operation, it contained significant safety features and system backups should anything fail during deployment or operation. I would like to restate for the team involved that you acted with all the decorum expected of a Hall of Fame team and I am proud to have been involved in your endeavor.
Attached is a picture of the device in the transport configuration behind the Einstein fields. Yes it fit!
marshall
27-04-2015, 13:49
It is my sincere hope that FIRST can figure out a way to prevent this in the future.
Joe J.
I'm going to take your comment with the spirit in which I think you meant it and not as an insult. Saying "no disrespect" and then "horror show" in the same sentence does not come off as respectful. I don't think you meant it that way and I think I know what you meant.
I personally feel like the fix for this is better game design. I don't feel like you can stop teams doing what we did without seriously hurting something truly wonderful about collaborate at-event designs and re-designs. We used COTS items and KOP components to do what we did. The few custom components were well under the 30 pound limit. I would not want to remove the ability of any team to redesign their robot at an event.
I don't know that you can make it illegal but you can remove the incentive for anyone to do it. I think that is the best method forward.
I'm glad we are all talking about this though. It should be talked about.
I was a bit disappointed when I saw the harpoons field-side without them being ever deployed, but I imagine it was great fun and a real learning process to create an entirely new robot from scratch in only a matter of hours. I'll bet it was quite inspirational for all who were involved, both on the "donor" team (1114), the "recipient" team (900), and the other teams on the alliance (148 and 1923). You could even say the fact that some think it was a horror show is merely a form of recognition of their achievements in such a short time schedule.
While I understand that teams and individuals (me included) get attached to their specific robots, I fail to see the downsides of allowing teams to help others improve their robots. My team sends out members of our electrical, mechanical, and software sub-teams to help out anyone who asks on Thursday and Friday at regional events, and has even gone so far as to assist in building a robot on Thursday with a team that ended up on the winning alliance come Saturday! I personally would have loved to have experienced what the members of all four of those teams went through to design, build, inspect, and tweak a design like that in a matter of hours. I find the idea of collaborating with some of the greatest well-known minds in FRC (and even those who aren't well known!) to create an elegant solution to a problem immensely inspiring. Cheesecaking also helps people who enjoy the competition aspect more than the inspiration by creating a more competitive environment. If teams weren't allowed to make changes after the six weeks, except to replace broken parts, the whole year would go on looking like week one events.
Cheesecaking is something that, to me at least, is a great example of people working together to accomplish a difficult task in as little time as possible. That's what you will be expected to do in the workforce, even if it means taking cues from your competitors. Rebuilding is a part of the iterative design process and should not be feared to the extent that it is for some.
On the topic of the harpoons themselves, I can't wait to read the paper on them! I stopped by 1114's pits on Friday during lunch to see if I could take a look at their robot and was surprised instead by the four harpoons in the process of being assembled. I'm looking forward to hopefully seeing them successfully deployed at IRI this July, so I might be able to see them in action!
ThePancakeMan
27-04-2015, 14:01
What Team 900 accomplished this weekend was nothing short of amazing. Their determination and tenacity in integrating our "Frog and Lily" setup into their newly built kitbot was at levels I've never seen before. They were constantly in our pit early in the event to ask us questions about what we were working on and how they could get it on their robot. I've never seen a team so focused on in event modifications. It was honour to be on the same alliance as a team with a culture that matches ours so closely.
The amount of work put into the in-event modifications was nothing short of amazing. I felt I really needed to say how AMAZED I am by the speed at which teams were able to produce new pieces and modifications. An unbelievable feat to witness. Truly remarkable!
Samwaldo
27-04-2015, 14:22
My opinion: I support "cheesecaking" (still not the biggest fan of the term). BUT there is a difference between improving or adding a feature to a robot, versus builing a whole new robot.
At multiple events, can grabbers or ramps were added that made a world of a difference for teams. I support this, especially if the team learned from the experience.
in 900's case, (from what I can tell) a whole entire new AM14U2 chassis and superstructure was created. The only main thing from the original robot was electronics, from what i have read. This in my eyes is a whole new robot (especially since it was even said that 900's original robot was mechanically intact). I appreciate that all rules were followed to the dot, and especially love how each team dealt with it proffesionally, and I can tell everyone (even 1114) learned from the experieince, but my hopes are that in the future a rule is created that prevents "cheesecaking" to this degree.
Overall im happy (and not upset) that 900 did what they did, and learned so much in such a short time (probably a seasons worth of knowledge), but hope that a rule is created that prevents alterations/improvements to the point of creating a 2nd/new robot.
Side Note: Cudos to 900, for the crazy idea of approaching 1114 about being there "cheesecake platter". The amount of effort you guys put forth such as CADing a new drivetrain overnight, is beyond inspirational. 1114 could of tried to find a team themselves but 900 put fate into their own hands and made sure they were the chosen team. INSPIRATIONAL, BRILLIANT, AND SMART! 900 has shown that they arent afraid to go with a crazy, out of the box idea (another example: 2014 - shooting the ball almost full court)
MrJohnston
27-04-2015, 14:38
My team's pit was directly next to 900's and across the aisle from 1114, so we watched this process the entire weekend. First, simple observations - I'll attempt to avoid opinions:
* It was clear that 1114 had designed the harpoons before arriving. They had a crew that began working on them almost immediately (Wed.?) in St. Louis. It's hard for me to know the precise start time as they spent time working on both their robot and the (at the time) unidentifiable cheesecake.
* It was also clear that the harpoons, by design, were more than a little cheesecake. They would have to replace most, if not all of a robot.
* Team 900 did start formally working with 1114 Friday afternoon/evening.
* Though, until Friday, it was clearly the work of 1114, once the Zebracorns were involved, their students were actively involved in the construction process - there were typically more of them around the bot working than 1114.
* Before eliminations started, team 900's entire bot (sans electronics?) were put into their crate. They did, in fact, build an entirely new robot.
* The new robot was clearly very small and only meant to make it legally defined as a robot. It was not going to be picking up and moving the harpoons anywhere. It also had no other ability than to perform the autonomous routine.
* The students on 900 seemed fine with the arrangement.
216Robochick288
27-04-2015, 14:40
While I understand that teams and individuals (me included) get attached to their specific robots, I fail to see the downsides of allowing teams to help others improve their robots.
At what point does improving a robot become a new one all together? I have no issues with improving a robot, but when you pour your heart and soul into a robot that you call your own, then 95% of it gets replaced by someone else is it really you improving your bot?
I have great love and respect for the teams involved, it just makes me sad to see whole robots thrown aside.
Jon Stratis
27-04-2015, 14:52
At what point does improving a robot become a new one all together? I have no issues with improving a robot, but when you pour your heart and soul into a robot that you call your own, then 95% of it gets replaced by someone else is it really you improving your bot?
I have great love and respect for the teams involved, it just makes me sad to see whole robots thrown aside.
This is a great question, and one I've mused over with many people. So far, I've found it impossible to come up with a rule wording that can draw the line clearly at a certain amount of cheesecaking- how do you allow an assembled gearbox without allowing an entire arm? How do you allow and arm without allowing an entire robot? A vague rule could be created that would require on-site interpretation for each presented solution, but I don't see how we can make it a plain black and white difference.
I also think it's important in this thread to be clear on one thing: any dislike of the rule that allows cheesecaking should not extend to these teams or this situation. They played the game according to the rules given and to the best of their abilities - if this rule hadn't been present, then I highly doubt we would have seen this take place :). One of the great things about FRC is seeing teams push the limits and boundaries in a gracious manor, and forcing the rest of us to rethink our basic conceptions of how to approach the game challenge. They definitely accomplished that here!
marshall
27-04-2015, 14:55
At what point does improving a robot become a new one all together? I have no issues with improving a robot, but when you pour your heart and soul into a robot that you call your own, then 95% of it gets replaced by someone else is it really you improving your bot?
I have great love and respect for the teams involved, it just makes me sad to see whole robots thrown aside.
It's just some metal and electronics. Yeah, work went into it but the point is to inspire and build students, not just robots. Does a robot make the team or does the team make the robot? The determination and drive of a team is what gets you to Einstein, not just a robot.
Our team looks at engineering challenges as just that, engineering challenges. The goal is to win the challenge and come out on top. Sometimes that involves going back to the drawing board. Our strategists predicted a machine like the one we built with 1114 would be required to help win the event and I'm glad we got to build it. It wasn't going to win a regional but it very well could have decided Einstein.
MrJohnston
27-04-2015, 14:56
Now, my opinions...
* I do not believe the teams did anything against the rules. (Okay, I was wondering whether or not the harpoons would be considered "safe," but figured that was something the inspectors and/or referees could decide.)
* I got the idea that the harpoons may not have been fully ready for competition... The last time I saw them fired (during the Curie finals), they grabbed two bins, but knocked the other two over to the other side.
* I am not a fan of this level of cheese-caking. The harpoons were clearly a device that very few teams were able to construct and, were we to compete against them, we would have felt like we were competing against an alliance of 148-1114-1114. That just does not seem right to me. Moreover, if a team is going to be competing on the championship fields, should it not have to use its own robot?
* Are we really at a point that the key to being asked onto the #1 alliance is to toss the competition bot you've played with all seasons, bring a KoP kit and ask an elite team to cheesecake you? This just strikes me as bad - and quite un-inspirational - especially to teams who were far stronger than 900 this weekend and had to watch the elimination rounds.
* It also begs the question, with all the emphasis and prestige of winning, does 900 now get to claim they reached Einstein? I suppose. It just seems strange to say so as the team finished in 75th place out of 76 teams and didn't enter into a single playoff match.
* I don't really blame the game-design for this. Designing a game that has never before existed or been played is difficult. It is nearly impossible for a group to foresee all the possible ways teams will interpret and/or play the game before it is actually played. It's not like they can look at last year's games and see what this year would be like. No, this is largely a question of culture. What do we as a community consider "acceptable?" How do we define "sportsmanship" and "gracious professionalism"? These are questions FIRST will have to tackle and we'll likely get some sort of rule clarification from it. Of course, none of that will do any good unless the FIRST community can come to some sort of consensus about whether this sort of activity is acceptable.
* It also begs the question, with all the emphasis and prestige of winning, does 900 now get to claim they reached Einstein? I suppose. It just seems strange to say so as the team finished in 75th place out of 76 teams and didn't enter into a single playoff match.
I didn't check (was a little busy Saturday) but I'm willing to guess there are other alliances who had not yet played their 4th bot when reaching Einstein.
Of course they 'get' to claim they reached Einstein. They put in more work in one day than I think I've ever seen in my now 15+ years as a FIRST observer.
They were on our alliance. Even if just for that one day, we're a family. We win and lose as a unit.
marshall
27-04-2015, 15:09
They were on our alliance. Even if just for that one day, we're a family. We win and lose as a unit.
Indeed.
Kevin Leonard
27-04-2015, 15:09
First of all, 900 is one of my favorite team in FRC. We had a qualification match with them in Archimedes 2014, and they were fantastic to work with. We tried some crazy ideas in our practice match with them before it that most teams wouldn't have been willing to try (full-court catching strategy. It would have been sick if it worked.
900 consistently thinks outside the box and has an overwhelming desire to win at the highest levels, which I admire about them so much.
From what I've heard from everyone involved, it was an incredibly inspiring experience for students on that whole Alliance, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it from that perspective.
I can understand why an opponent might be upset at this, but I don't blame any of the teams involved, I do blame the game design.
Everyone knew from then beginning of the season that finals on Einstein was going to be decided by can races- that was an obvious game flaw, and we knew how an arms race would end- we saw it happen in 2011, where teams with more resources were able to create faster minibots and won a world championship because of it.
Congrats to Team 900 on doing what it takes to reach the Einstein semifinals, as well as their alliance partners and supporters.
I'll be using 900 as an example of doing what it takes to win for anyone who will listen for the next year or so, until they reach Einstein again.
Bold prediction: 900 reaches Einstein again in 2016. Calling it right now.
Good luck, and I hope to compete with you next year.
marshall
27-04-2015, 15:16
Bold prediction: 900 reaches Einstein again in 2016. Calling it right now.
You are a brave man. I hope it comes true but only time will tell. I can tell you that next year will be just like this year. My students, fellow mentors, and myself will be working towards the same goal we had this year.
MrJohnston
27-04-2015, 15:39
I didn't check (was a little busy Saturday)
They were on our alliance. Even if just for that one day, we're a family. We win and lose as a unit.
They certainly were on the alliance and, yes, I do hold the belief that you win and lose as an alliance. However, should that not not also include playing as an alliance? Yes, had the harpoons been deployed, 900 would have played a role. (Whether or not that really would have been team 900 is a different question.) I also struggle with your team's role in eliminations. You burgled cans (with 148's cheesecake, yes?) and then rolled into a corner - when you were in matches. You spent most (?) half (?) off the field while 1114 and 148 did everything.
There was nothing illegal about this. I just could not imagine picking a "partner" and telling them that it's better for the alliance to play short-handed than to put them on the field. Even with partners that more frequently cost alliances points than gain points, we find ways to involve them in the game.
* It also begs the question, with all the emphasis and prestige of winning, does 900 now get to claim they reached Einstein? I suppose. It just seems strange to say so as the team finished in 75th place out of 76 teams and didn't enter into a single playoff match.
They absolutely reached Einstein. To me it seems strange that anyone would even question that.
They certainly were on the alliance and, yes, I do hold the belief that you win and lose as an alliance. However, should that not not also include playing as an alliance? Yes, had the harpoons been deployed, 900 would have played a role. (Whether or not that really would have been team 900 is a different question.) I also struggle with your team's role in eliminations. You burgled cans (with 148's cheesecake, yes?) and then rolled into a corner - when you were in matches. You spent most (?) half (?) off the field while 1114 and 148 did everything.
There was nothing illegal about this. I just could not imagine picking a "partner" and telling them that it's better for the alliance to play short-handed than to put them on the field. Even with partners that more frequently cost alliances points than gain points, we find ways to involve them in the game.
I struggle with you level of disrespect. You can try all you want to insult our alliance partners and take away from their accomplishments, but it's not going to work.
marshall
27-04-2015, 15:47
They absolutely reached Einstein. To me it seems strange that anyone would even question that.
Something about sticks, stones, and blue banners...
Abhishek R
27-04-2015, 15:47
Excuse me if I missed it somewhere, but why weren't the harpoons ever deployed? It seems to me like SF6 on Einstein would be the last ditch match as Newton and Curie were both fighting for that second spot.
Since you guys have one harpoon left, do you guys happen to have the CAD files for it? If so would you guys be willing to share them at all? They would be pretty interesting to look at. Anywise, thanks.
I also struggle with your team's role in eliminations. You burgled cans (with 148's cheesecake, yes?) and then rolled into a corner - when you were in matches. You spent most (?) half (?) off the field while 1114 and 148 did everything.
There was nothing illegal about this. I just could not imagine picking a "partner" and telling them that it's better for the alliance to play short-handed than to put them on the field. Even with partners that more frequently cost alliances points than gain points, we find ways to involve them in the game.
We didn't play in the Curie QFs because we were still getting through inspection. Please see our own writeup about our experience here (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136952) and others' responses in the Cheesecake Runaway thread. This (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1476743&postcount=45) will help explain our role in the match a little better, perhaps.
Sorry you struggled with it. My kids loved every moment of it.
They wore their medals to school today with pride, and your issue with it is not my problem.
MrJohnston
27-04-2015, 15:59
I struggle with you level of disrespect. You can try all you want to insult our alliance partners and take away from their accomplishments, but it's not going to work.
I do not disrespect your alliance partners at all. I simply struggle with the chosen game strategy.
BrendanB
27-04-2015, 16:00
* It also begs the question, with all the emphasis and prestige of winning, does 900 now get to claim they reached Einstein? I suppose. It just seems strange to say so as the team finished in 75th place out of 76 teams and didn't enter into a single playoff match.
As someone who was the 4th member of a championship alliance last year, never played in a single match, and made it to Einstein its an opinion that we found out is pretty common in FRC. It is an unfortunate result of the four member alliance structure that some robots just might not play and still receive a banner or medal.
Most people choose not to say it in a public forum so I actually commend you for saying it in public.
I do not disrespect your alliance partners at all. I simply struggle with the chosen game strategy.
Claiming that we don't deserve to say we're an Einstein team is pretty disrespectful.
Yes, "we".
148, 1114, 1923, 900.
MrJohnston
27-04-2015, 16:00
Sorry you struggled with it. My kids loved every moment of it.
They wore their medals to school today with pride, and your issue with it is not my problem.
I'm glad your kids enjoyed it and took pride in it. I'm just saying that it is a game strategy that I could not have supported.
MrJohnston
27-04-2015, 16:04
Claiming that we don't deserve to say we're an Einstein team is pretty disrespectful.
Yes, "we".
148, 1114, 1923, 900.
I didn't say that. I simply said I struggled with your role.
I do not disrespect your alliance partners at all. I simply struggle with the chosen game strategy.
No, your statement precisely disrespected them, whether it was your intent or not. Frankly I'm tired of seeing both 1923 and 900 have to deal with these slights. There are students on these teams who read these forums and now see people questioning the validity of their position on an alliance. It's both rude and unfair.
MrJohnston
27-04-2015, 16:07
No, your statement precisely disrespected them, whether it was your intent or not. Frankly I'm tired of seeing both 1923 and 900 have to deal with these slights. There are students on these teams who read these forums and now see people questioning the validity of their position on an alliance. It's both rude and unfair.
Very well. I apologize for being/showing/expressing disrespect. It was certainly neither intended nor thought.
Is it okay to disagree or struggle with a chosen game strategy on personal principle?
Is it okay to disagree or struggle with a chosen game strategy on personal principle?
Absolutely. But claiming a team doesn't deserve what they have because they didn't use your preferred strategy is what wasn't okay.
Appreciate you clarifying your intent.
jaustinpage
27-04-2015, 16:19
Since you guys have one harpoon left, do you guys happen to have the CAD files for it? If so would you guys be willing to share them at all? They would be pretty interesting to look at. Anywise, thanks.
That is a 1114 question, it would be presumptuous of me to post something like that. (Although, in years past, 1114 has posted cad here: http://www.simbotics.org/resources/cad)
MrJohnston
27-04-2015, 16:24
I would like to thank you, Karthik, for your lovely and quite gracious personal message.
I know our team will never have as many blue banners as your team nor will we ever build robots as glorious as yours. That does not, however, mean that you have any special authority or some monopoly on integrity.
The question as to whether or not you should have to three robots on a three-team alliance is a good one for discussion. I get it: you think that it's okay to sit the third robot on the sidelines if it helps your team to win. I don't. We disagree. Deal with it.
I do not have any disrespect for your alliance partners and I'm sorry if it came out that way.
I think it is amazing what you guys were able to do in just 7 hours. it shows the level of dedication your team and your alliance partners have, I applaud you all for putting in so much hard work. Everyone who worked hard deserves to be recognised for their amount of hard work and passion they put into the robot in 7 hours.
I applaud team 900, team 1923, team 1114 and team 148. You guys all worked hard and you all deserved to be on Einstein.
Those who can, how about we all step back for a sec on the jabbing back and forth?
It’s only been two days, everyone needs some time to decompress and of course talk. Let’s just try to limit the crossfire here, and respect everyone’s need to vent; the past week has been intense for all of us. Let’s try not to drag that out.
Please don’t fight!
I would like to thank you, Karthik, for your lovely and quite gracious personal message.
I know our team will never have as many blue banners as your team nor will we ever build robots as glorious as yours. That does not, however, mean that you have any special authority or some monopoly on integrity.
The question as to whether or not you should have to three robots on a three-team alliance is a good one for discussion. I get it: you think that it's okay to sit the third robot on the sidelines if it helps your team to win. I don't. We disagree. Deal with it.
I do not have any disrespect for your alliance partners and I'm sorry if it came out that way.
I'm confused. That portion of the discussion was over. What purpose does this post serve if not disrespect?
Dragging one of the most dedicated FIRST mentors on this planet through the mud because you're frustrated about a red dot is absolutely unneccessary. I know Karthik personally - I'd venture to say better than probably anyone on this forum - and I cannot imagine a universe in which he would act in a manner that warrants such a rude public response.
Those who can, how about we all step back for a sec on the jabbing back and forth?
It’s only been two days, everyone needs some time to decompress and of course talk. Let’s just try to limit the crossfire here, and respect everyone’s need to vent; the past week has been intense for all of us. Let’s try not to drag that out.
Please don’t fight!
You're absolutely right. As a contributor to the negativity here, I apologize. This thread should be to discuss Team 900's journey at the Championship. Sorry that I derailed the topic. I'm going to do what I should have done long ago, which is to ignore the negativity and celebrate the positivity. Thanks for the reminder.
Sam Slade
27-04-2015, 16:35
First off, I want to preference my post by congratulating ALL 4 of the championship winners. It was a great strategy and well within the rules. I have no issues with the strategy.
I understand and support finding ways for any team to contribute more to an alliance. At the Southfield District in Michigan this year, a team took a cardboard trash bin from the event and taped it to their robot for the elimination matches. During the match, they loaded their alliance's remaining noodles in it and drove to the landfill to score points. No one cried "Foul" there, nor should they have. Teams then expanded to sharing can burglars and ramps, again with no one crying "Foul" (that I can remember anyways).
The strategy that this alliance came up with was brilliant. It sounds like it was an amazing experience for all involved. They didn't break any rules, no one was bullied into doing anything, they simply came up with a strategy to try to win.
I am, however, a little concerned with what "cheesecaking" may become. Are we going to continue down this path to the point at which a team simply builds three robots and slaps their partners' numbers on them for the match?Again, I am not accusing anyone of doing anything wrong. I am simply wondering what the future holds.
Again congratulations to ALL 4 of the championship winners. To insinuate that a team does not deserve the championship win as part of the alliance just because they didn't play in a match is absurd. Does a backup quarterback "not deserve" a ring when their team wins a Superbowl? Everyone has their role to fill. That's what makes you a team/alliance.
You're absolutely right. As a contributor to the negativity here, I apologize. This thread should be to discuss Team 900's journey at the Championship. Sorry that I derailed the topic.
Same. It's done.
900, you rock. We love y'all. Sorry this junk ended up in a thread about your amazing story.
smurfgirl
27-04-2015, 16:37
To insinuate that a team does not deserve the championship win as part of the alliance just because they didn't play in a match is absurd. Does a backup quarterback "not deserve" a ring when their team wins a Superbowl? Everyone has their role to fill. That's what makes you a team/alliance.
I think that's a great way to look at it.
marshall
27-04-2015, 16:48
Same. It's done.
900, you rock. We love y'all. Sorry this junk ended up in a thread about your amazing story.
Awww... We love y'all too.
MrJohnston
27-04-2015, 16:57
I made my point and went too far... and worded things less delicately than I should have. For that I apologize. I will consider getting so sleep before posting more.
cadandcookies
27-04-2015, 17:06
I'll leave you with something I've been pondering. I really want to know why it takes 3 days to build a robot. Our alliance can do it in 7 hours and we can take it to Einstein. ;)
I'm up for a seven hour robot build :P Not sure how well that would go over with the rest of the 'Snow Problem team though.
Thank you for the incredible read. Your story truly is the stuff of FRC legend. Hopefully we'll see you on Einstein again in coming years!
Al Skierkiewicz
27-04-2015, 17:06
I would like to say a few things here to answer items that have come up in the last page.
In the past, if a team broke down, the alliance was forced to accept the next team in the list as a partner. If another robot broke, the next robot in line was brought up. With the current structure, an alliance now gets to chose their relief which allows them to plan strategy a little better. If more than one robot breaks, the alliance must play with what ever is left of the alliance. It is a tradeoff that most teams gladly accept. Personally, I saw the chance with the old method that more than three or four teams could share in the hardware. Please note, it is the alliance that shares regardless of how many teams actually play. The unplayed alliance team still is (should) be included in alliance decisions, successes and failures.
Team 900 and 1114 (and all teams on Einstein) played the game as designed, using the rules as any great strategist should. Have you not listened to the various strategy (cough Karthik cough) seminars? It does not matter really whether you like the rules or not, those that win, play with the rules they are given.
The robot built/rebuilt by Team 900 contained parts of their robot that was initially inspected at the 2015 Championship and was found to be legal to compete under the Robot and Tournament rules.
Inspectors were assigned to stay with the team while they worked in the pit and as the picture(s) show above, many additional inspectors were present to assist inspection behind the Einstein pits. The alliance was very cooperative in getting through this process.
The four assemblies collectively weighed around 80 pounds so the control platform had to be modified to make weight. I believe when accurately totaled, the time period was likely longer than the seven hours stated. I was brought in to check progress and review the design somewhere in the middle of the process, likely around 3:00 PM on Friday.
While the design looks scary, imposing and possibly dangerous, I can assure it was not. The team had done considerable design work to provide safety, backup systems and limits to travel. The strings visible in the video are more for travel limit than for retrieval. The only concern for me occurs during loading the darts. I had a long discussion with the pit crew and drive team on this subject. We were able to come to an acceptable method that would protect all participants and minimize any accidents. The alliance also fully understood the risks should contact be made with anything on the opposite side of the field or outside of the field boundary.
No one should question the decisions teams make to give what they think is anything less than a spectacular experience to their students. In looking back I can only hope that my involvement gave something positive to the students (and mentors) I worked with. I felt we were a team working towards a common goal. Please let me know if there was anything I could have done better. I expect that all of the inspectors, Ed Sparks, Chuck Dickerson, Ken Platteschore, Jon Stratis, and Matt Mitag (working from the picture earlier) and any of the inspectors back in the pits feel the same way.
While I am more conservative than most, I still want to see it fire in competition. IRI???
That is a 1114 question, it would be presumptuous of me to post something like that. (Although, in years past, 1114 has posted cad here: http://www.simbotics.org/resources/cad)
A bit surprised you guys feel that way. If you don't want to post it, thats a different story, but this design and implementation was a very collaborative effort by your own standards. You shouldn't think it presumptuous of you to post something like that in my opinion because by working so hard on it, it is equally yours.
Does it belong to you as much as them? I can't speak for 1114 but I would be interested to see if they feel the same way I do.
Regardless, if you/your team do not want to post, thats an okay decision, I just think you should be making it on your own behalf, not on behalf of another team.
I am, however, a little concerned with what "cheesecaking" may become. Are we going to continue down this path to the point at which a team simply builds three robots and slaps their partners' numbers on them for the match?Again, I am not accusing anyone of doing anything wrong. I am simply wondering what the future holds.
I can't speak for others, but personally I feel that a lot of the "cheasecaking" had to do with the game this year. We knew on day 1 of build season that the matches would (99% of the time) be decided within the first few seconds by who could grab the cans first.
That being said, we also knew that there was absolutely no way that "can burgler" without the ability to then place the cans on stacks would have let us win the regionals we attend. We made the choice to build the robot we would need to (hopefully) succeed at regionals.
That robot was definitely not up to the task at Championships. Not only was it mechanically flakey (we had to replace the output shafts of the motors nearly every match which involved removing the entire arm. Just ask AndyMark how much we abused their products this year!), but we knew it wasn't fast enough.
Even before knowing which field we were going to be on, we had discussed leaving the arm at home and building something new to put on the robot for Championships. It was eventually decided that we should keep the arm, we wanted to see the autonomous with vision we had worked so hard on.
Overall, I think that there are two main benefits that came out of this.
First, our students were inspired, they got to work with some other teams very closely to accomplish a very very impressive engineering feat.
Second, we got to meet and work with 1114, 148 and 1923. We hope that we will have a lasting relationship with them for years to come. As we continue to grow as a team, having these contacts we can ask for advice and as a guide for how we can help improve our team will be invaluable. I can't wait to see them at worlds next year! Also, meeting Libby was awesome! We are super proud to be part of Team Unither and we hope to grow those bonds and be able to work more closely with them in the future!
Sorry for the long ramble-y post :)
marshall
27-04-2015, 17:09
I would like to say a few things here to answer items that have come up in the last page.
In the past, if a team broke down, the alliance was forced to accept the next team in the list as a partner. If another robot broke, the next robot in line was brought up. With the current structure, an alliance now gets to chose their relief which allows them to plan strategy a little better. If more than one robot breaks, the alliance must play with what ever is left of the alliance. It is a tradeoff that most teams gladly accept. Personally, I saw the chance with the old method that more than three or four teams could share in the hardware. Please note, it is the alliance that shares regardless of how many teams actually play. The unplayed alliance team still is (should) be included in alliance decisions, successes and failures.
Team 900 and 1114 (and all teams on Einstein) played the game as designed, using the rules as any great strategist should. Have you not listened to the various strategy (cough Karthik cough) seminars? It does not matter really whether you like the rules or not, those that win, play with the rules they are given.
The robot built/rebuilt by Team 900 contained parts of their robot that was initially inspected at the 2015 Championship and was found to be legal to compete under the Robot and Tournament rules.
Inspectors were assigned to stay with the team while they worked in the pit and as the picture(s) show above, many additional inspectors were present to assist inspection behind the Einstein pits. The alliance was very cooperative in getting through this process.
The four assemblies collectively weighed around 80 pounds so the control platform had to be modified to make weight. I believe when accurately totaled, the time period was likely longer than the seven hours stated. I was brought in to check progress and review the design somewhere in the middle of the process, likely around 3:00 PM on Friday.
While the design looks scary, imposing and possibly dangerous, I can assure it was not. The team had done considerable design work to provide safety, backup systems and limits to travel. The strings visible in the video are more for travel limit than for retrieval. The only concern for me occurs during loading the darts. I had a long discussion with the pit crew and drive team on this subject. We were able to come to an acceptable method that would protect all participants and minimize any accidents. The alliance also fully understood the risks should contact be made with anything on the opposite side of the field or outside of the field boundary.
No one should question the decisions teams make to give what they think is anything less than a spectacular experience to their students. In looking back I can only hope that my involvement gave something positive to the students (and mentors) I worked with. I felt we were a team working towards a common goal. Please let me know if there was anything I could have done better. I expect that all of the inspectors, Ed Sparks, Chuck Dickerson, Chris Paulik, Jon Stratis, Matt Mitag and Jeff Pahl feel the same way.
While I am more conservative than most, I still want to see it fire in competition.
Al, you're amazing. I'm not sure if I had the opportunity to shake your hand but I can tell you that the inspectors working with my students behind the curtain (literal curtain behind the Einstein fields) made a huge impression on them. Thank you!
marshall
27-04-2015, 17:11
A bit surprised you guys feel that way. If you don't want to post it, thats a different story, but this design and implementation was a very collaborative effort by your own standards. You shouldn't think it presumptuous of you to post something like that in my opinion because by working so hard on it, it is equally yours.
Does it belong to you as much as them? I can't speak for 1114 but I would be interested to see if they feel the same way I do.
Regardless, if you/your team do not want to post, thats an okay decision, I just think you should be making it on your own behalf, not on behalf of another team.
Knowing my colleague as I do, he was simply saying that we just need to confer with our awesome alliance partners before we post anything. It is a shared setup after all.
Ryan Dognaux
27-04-2015, 17:12
I simply struggle with the chosen game strategy.
Then fault the GDC and FIRST for allowing it, not the teams operating within the rules.
Haters gonna hate, Cheesers gonna cake.
I love the harpoons. Hopefully we will see them in action at IRI :)
Al Skierkiewicz
27-04-2015, 17:19
Marshall, it is all I can ask of them. I shook a lot of hands last week, chances are pretty good, yours were one of them.
Knowing my colleague as I do, he was simply saying that we just need to confer with our awesome alliance partners before we post anything. It is a shared setup after all.
Agreed, it is a shared setup, and you should discuss with 1114. Make sure not to completely defer to them, as I think your colleague may have implied in his post. It is not presumptuous of him to own that work. He worked hard on it, and it is as much your as theirs.
George Nishimura
27-04-2015, 17:21
I admit that I really wanted to see the harpoons in action on the field, fully working. I think it's an amazing idea.
From an engineering perspective, I think it's impressive if a team came out from a six week build season with it, let alone a 7ish hour time period. Well done to all that contributed, I remember walking past it in the pits and being amazed!
From an educational perspective, I think it must be incredibly inspiring to work closely alongside teams such as 1114 and 148.
However, from a sporting/competition perspective, I think it's a dangerous precedent that should be discouraged in some way.
Then fault the GDC and FIRST for allowing it, not the teams operating within the rules.
They tried to ban it. It just happens to be an incredibly difficult thing to outlaw and had to leave it as a loophole.
steelerborn
27-04-2015, 17:31
Just would like to say that I think that all 4 members of an alliance (no matter the amount of play time) get to share in the winnings.
I have a lot of respect 148 (one of my favorite teams), 1114, 1923, and 900. Karthik and Libby are both great mentors that do so much for their team and the FIRST community.
Watching that last semi-final match was insane I was on the edge of my seat. I think MrJohnston also made some points that I feel are correct. Recycle Rush at its core was a game of consistency. I am personally not a fan of telling robots to sit and just wait for the end of the game (especially since this year there was no defense, or endgame. Finding a job was more challenging).
Just food for thought if 1923 had put up 1 tote in teleop, in each SF match, you would have a different set of world champions right now. That is just one tote a match, I would trust almost any team this year with that task. Even if they spent the whole match doing just that 1 tote. It still is a contribution that would have made a huge difference. And after watching 1923 this year I am sure they could have done this easily.
In the end it was just a poor strategy decision, but from reading all of the posts from 900, 1923, and 1114 it sounds like the kids had a blast being there, learning from some great teams, and were able to make some great memories which is what FIRST is all about. Great job all around :)
ice.berg
27-04-2015, 17:44
Team 900 and 1114 (and all teams on Einstein) played the game as designed, using the rules as any great strategist should. Have you not listened to the various strategy (cough Karthik cough) seminars? It does not matter really whether you like the rules or not, those that win, play with the rules they are given.
This snippet caught my attention.
First, our team are HUGE supporters of Karthik's strategy seminars. We base much of our strategy department on them. EVERY team can learn something from them.
Second, if teams don't play the rules they are given I think they are doing themselves a big disservice. This is the fun in FIRST to me. FIRST is about pushing the boundaries of engineering. Many times the teams who are successful are the ones playing in unconventional ways.
Every single team has the same rules to follow.
Last Thing:
Only speaking for myself and not our alliance but I really really wanted to see 900 play on Einstein. Not sure if we would have beaten them in the can war or not but I just wanted to see those harpoons. Crazy Idea that I thought was totally awesome. Big props to that whole alliance.
Agreed, it is a shared setup, and you should discuss with 1114. Make sure not to completely defer to them, as I think your colleague may have implied in his post. It is not presumptuous of him to own that work. He worked hard on it, and it is as much your as theirs.
Clearly you have never met anyone on our team :). We are some of the most stubborn people I've ever met. Makes for some fascinating team dynamics! The statement was definitely to respect 1114's interest in the project as well.
Just food for thought if 1923 had put up 1 tote in teleop, in each SF match, you would have a different set of world champions right now. That is just one tote a match, I would trust almost any team this year with that task. Even if they spent the whole match doing just that 1 tote. It still is a contribution that would have made a huge difference. And after watching 1923 this year I am sure they could have done this easily.
In the end it was just a poor strategy decision, but from reading all of the posts from 900, 1923, and 1114 it sounds like the kids had a blast being there, learning from some great teams, and were able to make some great memories which is what FIRST is all about. Great job all around :)
I disagree with this. As 1923 has already said, they were less reliable loading their robot without their ramp (which they couldn't have and can burgle). Since 148 got nearly all of the bins stacked from the HP station, it is definitely possible that the totes falling sideways out of the feeder station trying to feed them to 1923 would have actually decreased the number available to 148 and would have meant less points for the alliance. With the close quarters and not being able to see, there was also a higher risk of knocking over stacks. As has been previously said by the teams, the alliances discussed the possibility of having 1923 stack and decided as a group that it was a higher risk than they were willing to take. I have the utmost respect for 1923 for being able to make that decision and put the needs of the alliance above their desire to stack themselves
steelerborn
27-04-2015, 18:27
I disagree with this. As 1923 has already said, they were less reliable loading their robot without their ramp (which they couldn't have and can burgle). Since 148 got nearly all of the bins stacked from the HP station, it is definitely possible that the totes falling sideways out of the feeder station trying to feed them to 1923 would have actually decreased the number available to 148 and would have meant less points for the alliance. With the close quarters and not being able to see, there was also a higher risk of knocking over stacks. As has been previously said by the teams, the alliances discussed the possibility of having 1923 stack and decided as a group that it was a higher risk than they were willing to take. I have the utmost respect for 1923 for being able to make that decision and put the needs of the alliance above their desire to stack themselves
I never said that the strategy was not decided as a group. I am sure 900, 1923, 1114, and 148 all had long discussions about the strategy together especially with 900 getting up and running with the cheesecake. All the teams I know have great drivers, students, and mentors :)
I was saying that no stack needed to be made, even if they just dropped in one tote (from the other feeder station, opposite of Robin) and pushed it up onto the scoring platform (even if it was sideways). That would have been all they needed in the match. I think 148 would have been okay with having just one tote less. It was hard to tell but did they ever drain the human stations by themselves? And I know that it is easy to see what could have happened once the event is done and over with. But I was just showing how such a small strategical decision could have a big outcome.
It was hard to tell but did they ever drain the human stations by themselves? And I know that it is easy to see what could have happened once the event is done and over with. But I was just showing how such a small strategical decision could have a big outcome.
I believe they were constantly within a few totes of the human stations being cleared by themselves. And the likelihood that a single tote would land sideways/upside down was not negligible.
steelerborn
27-04-2015, 18:34
If the tote fell sideways it still would have been fine just push it right up onto the scoring platform. Spend the whole match making sure that at least one tote was scored. That is all I was saying.
Understood! It was a risk vs reward decision.
It could also be said that if 148's auto had worked in just one more SF match it wouldn't have been nearly so close :)
steelerborn
27-04-2015, 18:40
Yup that is also very true as well :)
Little things can make a big difference.
howdosheeplamp
27-04-2015, 19:05
After all this argument, I am certain there is something we can all agree on.
From the 21-seconds-left noodling of one of 118's stacks to them pushing a piece of litter into the landfill during the last moments of the match, to each and every noodle human players missed or scored, the semifinals, especially semifinal 6, was one of the most stressful, hand-wringing, and emotionally charged moments of my entire high school experience.
As a student at the end of my senior year, I can't believe I was part of such an amazing event. I have only gratitude towards all the teams at the event, and I am certain there are hundreds, if not thousands, of other inspired students much like myself. And isn't that the point of this all?
Sincerely, to all the teams that challenged me, inspired me, and brought me to tears of joy at the end of it all,
Thank you.
Citrus Dad
27-04-2015, 19:22
Seeing the video of the 1114/900 mechanism was quite interesting. We had developed a "counter-counter-cheesecake" to this counter-cheesecake that may have left a mess in both landfills. In the end, we might have left 118 off the field and used 1671 to stack from HP station while 5012 and 900 had can wars.
"counter-counter-cheesecake"
Darn it.... now I can't stop imagining an entire counter full of cheesecake.
marshall
27-04-2015, 19:32
Seeing the video of the 1114/900 mechanism was quite interesting. We had developed a "counter-counter-cheesecake" to this counter-cheesecake that may have left a mess in both landfills. In the end, we might have left 118 off the field and used 1671 to stack from HP station while 5012 and 900 had can wars.
I really want to hear about the strategy you guys had developed with 5012. I have only heard bits and pieces. I hope someone is working on a write up. Y'all were an amazing alliance!
steelerborn
27-04-2015, 19:35
I wish 1671 was given some cheesecake, would have been nice to celebrate with some desert lol.
howdosheeplamp
27-04-2015, 19:43
I really want to hear about the strategy you guys had developed with 5012. I have only heard bits and pieces. I hope someone is working on a write up. Y'all were an amazing alliance!
Immediately after 5012 was picked, 118 got to work putting their cheesecake on the back of the robot (dubbed "Bane"). They finished their cheesecake sometime during division semis, if I remember correctly.
Meanwhile, 1678 was building and testing a separate cheesecake. This was originally designed to be mounted on top of a robot drive base, but a wooden frame was used as a substitute since 5012 was being cheesecaked at the same time. After the 118-1678-1671-5012 alliance won their division, we started planning the counter-counter-cheesecake against 1114's harpoons. This ultimately led to the wooden frame being the final mounting spot for the cheesecake, and after cutting some weight off of both 5012 and the second cheesecake, the whole assembly (5012+118's "Bane"+1678's tethered cheesecake) was under 120 lbs. It was good to go by Einstein semis, if I recall correctly.
RoboChair
27-04-2015, 20:41
Immediately after 5012 was picked, 118 got to work putting their cheesecake on the back of the robot (dubbed "Bane"). They finished their cheesecake sometime during division semis, if I remember correctly.
Meanwhile, 1678 was building and testing a separate cheesecake. This was originally designed to be mounted on top of a robot drive base, but a wooden frame was used as a substitute since 5012 was being cheesecaked at the same time. After the 118-1678-1671-5012 alliance won their division, we started planning the counter-counter-cheesecake against 1114's harpoons. This ultimately led to the wooden frame being the final mounting spot for the cheesecake, and after cutting some weight off of both 5012 and the second cheesecake, the whole assembly (5012+118's "Bane"+1678's tethered cheesecake) was under 120 lbs. It was good to go by Einstein semis, if I recall correctly.
It was ready just after Newton Finals. Preparation of our cheesecake was setting up the mechanism on a stand-in kitbot frame, a wood base on Friday. Saturday morning the plan changed to make it able to tether to 3rd bot with our robot parked OVER it. The mechanism was tested with 5 wraps in the pits while being weighed down with 2 cinder-blocks and 2 sandbags and grabbed the cans in 158 ms AFTER BUCKING NEARLY A FOOT off the ground and shrugging the blocks off. So if our robot could hold it down even better on the field there would be less wasted energy propelling it even faster! Then after auto we would drive off of Tether-Cake and stack some totes while leaving those 2 cans to be tied up the whole match.
marshall
27-04-2015, 21:05
It was ready just after Newton Finals. Preparation of our cheesecake was setting up the mechanism on a stand-in kitbot frame, a wood base on Friday. Saturday morning the plan changed to make it able to tether to 3rd bot with our robot parked OVER it. The mechanism was tested with 5 wraps in the pits while being weighed down with 2 cinder-blocks and 2 sandbags and grabbed the cans in 158 ms AFTER BUCKING NEARLY A FOOT off the ground and shrugging the blocks off. So if our robot could hold it down even better on the field there would be less wasted energy propelling it even faster! Then after auto we would drive off of Tether-Cake and stack some totes while leaving those 2 cans to be tied up the whole match.
I love it. Mutually assured destruction. The level of strategy at play is just impressive considering this game.
Joe Johnson
27-04-2015, 22:10
A lot has been said. Sorry for not participating in this thread during the day as it progressed. What follows is a long post. Sorry in advance. Skip to the RANT Section if you just want to see an old man yell, "get off my lawn"
I'm going to take your comment with the spirit in which I think you meant it and not as an insult. Saying "no disrespect" and then "horror show" in the same sentence does not come off as respectful. I don't think you meant it that way and I think I know what you meant.
<snip>
I said horror show, I meant it.
I don't say anything about your kids or your team. In fact, while watching Einstein, I leaned over to my son and said, "As much as I think cheesecaking is bad for FIRST, those kids are going to have a story to tell that will be recounted at ever class reunion they have for the next 70 years."
That said, the story and it's implications ARE fantastically scary more on that below.
<snip> So far, I've found it impossible to come up with a rule wording that can draw the line clearly at a certain amount of cheesecaking
<snip>
I don't see how we can make it a plain black and white difference.
<snip>
<snip>
They tried to ban it. It just happens to be an incredibly difficult thing to outlaw and had to leave it as a loophole.
We don't have to make it as black and white as most people seem to think. FIRST is a great community. Given the nature of the community, I think it can be handled quite simply with a statement of principle and a rule:
STATEMENT (put in a blue box in the rules if you like):
We expect Alliance Captains to pick teams for the robot that a drafted team HAS, not for the robot Alliance Members can turn it into. Small improvements, code changes, tweaks and turns are par for the course as are discovering that a subsystem designed for one function can be used for another (e.g. can you use that arm to block frisbees? why yeah, I guess I can!). However, adding entire new subsystems and functionality after the draft is not in the spirit of FIRST (especially if such additions require removing other subsystems and functionality in order to meet limits such as weight, size, cost, etc.)
RULE (named for Karthik perhaps?):
Teams must be re-inspected after their last Qualification Match. This inspection is expected to be the last re-inspection that a robot will have for a given tournament. Changes that would typically require a re-inspection will not be allowed without a prior permission from the lead inspector of a competition. Requests for such exemptions should be rare. Actual exemptions should be rarer still and will require very special circumstances to be allowed.
<snip>
Of course they 'get' to claim they reached Einstein. They put in more work in one day than I think I've ever seen in my now 15+ years as a FIRST observer.
<snip[/B]
No serious FIRSTer should ever suggest that they didn't get to Einstein. This is settled law as far as I am concerned and even those who think having a 4th robot on an alliance is not a particularly good idea. Team 900 is now and forever will be a full member of the great alliance that came out of Curie and came within a 5 points (that's < 3 uncanned totes!) of making it to the Finals on Einstein.
That said, I don't know where you have been looking for 15+ years, Libby K, but there are a lot of folks in the FIRST community who might dispute statements revolving around amounts of work done in a day. They worked hard, I am sure. Good on them. Had they done no work at all in St. Louis, my views on the matter would be the same. How much work they did or didn't do have nothing to do with what is good for FIRST in the long term.
Now for the rant:
I think that FIRST holds a lot of the blame here.
Three years ago they allowed all manner of things to be strapped to robots as blockers for full court disk shooters. Last year, the game design almost forced this because it required two good robots (a.k.a. the #1 seed and the first draft pick) to not be able to win unless the last team drafted (a.k.a. the 24th best team at a tourney) did at least SOMETHING that qualified as an "assist". These two years got the cheesecake snowball rolling.
But THIS year, this year was something special. FIRST made a game where two good robots could effectively get max points if and only if they won a battle that was over in a literal blink of an eye... ...during Auton. FIRST designed a game where a half a second into the match, not only didn't the best alliances need a third robot, often having a 24th robot around was a liability - having them do something, anything, only cost them points -- it never helped them. Add to this that Alliances get a 4th robot at the World Championships (not FIRST's best idea imho) and you have a recipe for the Harpoon Bot. It was going to happen.
I think this is bad for FIRST. Not illegal. Not immoral. Just not want we want more of. FIRST should take steps to make it clear that this is not something it supports both in terms of rules and expectations.
Dr. Joe J.
This is truly amazing. I've always been a fan of how 900 build their robots, and how they take the same challenge we do, and yet approach it with a radically different design approach. Last year, we faced 900 in the elims at NC, and only barely lost to their ingenious (yet annoying at the time -- kidding, you know we love you) strategy. This year, we somehow managed to snag them as the second round pick on the #1 alliance at NC and together won a regional. Their determination to fix a but midway through the Semis was amazing, and without them we could not have won the regional.
Seeing such an amazing turn of events on Saturday at Champs this year was incredible. Building a robot from scratch in only 7 hours is truly inspirational, and just from looking at the pits from afar it was clear that the students on 900 and 1114 combined are some of the most dedicated. I'm in awe of what was accomplished in such a short amount of time, and look forward to seeing the robot in action in the future (THOR and SCRIW tethered to Go Big?? Please??). I've long been a fan of 1114 and 900, and this incredible combination of teams to create a unique solution to a hard problem is amazing. I congratulate you on what you did, and can't wait to work with 900 again in the coming years as NC goes district for 2016.
----
Now, as a completely separate topic, I personally do not like that this year's game lent itself to this kind of tactic -- designing a robot from scratch in only a day just for Einstein. It's an amazing feat, but not one I feel FIRST should be going for. This is no fault of 900 or 1114 or any other team who "cheesecaked" another robot, merely a fault of a game where doing something like this could give your alliance such a leg up. We may well have done the same thing had we been in 900's shoes, but I'm not sure this is exactly what FIRST wants to promote in the coming years through their game design.
PayneTrain
27-04-2015, 22:18
Now for the rant:
I think that FIRST holds a lot of the blame here.
Three years ago they allowed all manner of things to be strapped to robots as blockers for full court disk shooters. Last year, the game design almost forced this because it required two good robots (a.k.a. the #1 seed and the first draft pick) to not be able to win unless the last team drafted (a.k.a. the 24th best team at a tourney) did at least SOMETHING that qualified as an "assist". These two years got the cheesecake snowball rolling.
But THIS year, this year was something special. FIRST made a game where two good robots could effectively get max points if and only if they won a battle that was over in a literal blink of an eye... ...during Auton. FIRST designed a game where a half a second into the match, not only didn't the best alliances need a third robot, often having a 24th robot around was a liability - having them do something, anything, only cost them points -- it never helped them. Add to this that Alliances get a 4th robot at the World Championships (not FIRST's best idea imho) and you have a recipe for the Harpoon Bot. It was going to happen.
I think this is bad for FIRST. Not illegal. Not immoral. Just not want we want more of. FIRST should take steps to make it clear that this is not something it supports both in terms of rules and expectations.
Dr. Joe J.
FIRST gave us a game where they put all of the carrots of the game design into this kind of strategy, while the sticks preventing it would not have met the goals of FIRST as an organization. Anyone who decries the hard work of teams to succeed to the best of their total abilities (not just robot power, but people/willpower) are insane. If you didn't like how alliances came to be and how the robots were adjusted, the onus is not the teams' to bear. I think lessons were learned by the GDC on this front. I've made a couple points on how the game design encouraged this before, and I'll probably add to it and summarize it later this week. That seems pretty agreeable.
marshall
27-04-2015, 22:37
I think that FIRST holds a lot of the blame here.
Three years ago they allowed all manner of things to be strapped to robots as blockers for full court disk shooters. Last year, the game design almost forced this because it required two good robots (a.k.a. the #1 seed and the first draft pick) to not be able to win unless the last team drafted (a.k.a. the 24th best team at a tourney) did at least SOMETHING that qualified as an "assist". These two years got the cheesecake snowball rolling.
But THIS year, this year was something special. FIRST made a game where two good robots could effectively get max points if and only if they won a battle that was over in a literal blink of an eye... ...during Auton. FIRST designed a game where a half a second into the match, not only didn't the best alliances need a third robot, often having a 24th robot around was a liability - having them do something, anything, only cost them points -- it never helped them. Add to this that Alliances get a 4th robot at the World Championships (not FIRST's best idea imho) and you have a recipe for the Harpoon Bot. It was going to happen.
I think this is bad for FIRST. Not illegal. Not immoral. Just not want we want more of. FIRST should take steps to make it clear that this is not something it supports both in terms of rules and expectations.
Dr. Joe J.
I think you and I agree with one another after all. I didn't think you meant anything bad earlier. It just came off one way to me, you know? It's all good though. I see your side more clearly now. At any rate, I think you're absolutely right about the game design. Games that can be won/lost in less than a second aren't nearly as fun as the ones that take the full time to play out.
And thank you for the kind words about my students. They definitely have a story to tell.
marshall
27-04-2015, 22:40
This is truly amazing. I've always been a fan of how 900 build their robots, and how they take the same challenge we do, and yet approach it with a radically different design approach. Last year, we faced 900 in the elims at NC, and only barely lost to their ingenious (yet annoying at the time -- kidding, you know we love you) strategy. This year, we somehow managed to snag them as the second round pick on the #1 alliance at NC and together won a regional. Their determination to fix a but midway through the Semis was amazing, and without them we could not have won the regional.
Seeing such an amazing turn of events on Saturday at Champs this year was incredible. Building a robot from scratch in only 7 hours is truly inspirational, and just from looking at the pits from afar it was clear that the students on 900 and 1114 combined are some of the most dedicated. I'm in awe of what was accomplished in such a short amount of time, and look forward to seeing the robot in action in the future (THOR and SCRIW tethered to Go Big?? Please??). I've long been a fan of 1114 and 900, and this incredible combination of teams to create a unique solution to a hard problem is amazing. I congratulate you on what you did, and can't wait to work with 900 again in the coming years as NC goes district for 2016.
----
Now, as a completely separate topic, I personally do not like that this year's game lent itself to this kind of tactic -- designing a robot from scratch in only a day just for Einstein. It's an amazing feat, but not one I feel FIRST should be going for. This is no fault of 900 or 1114 or any other team who "cheesecaked" another robot, merely a fault of a game where doing something like this could give your alliance such a leg up. We may well have done the same thing had we been in 900's shoes, but I'm not sure this is exactly what FIRST wants to promote in the coming years through their game design.
Awww... you guys are the great ones. We wouldn't have even been in St Louis if you hadn't thought to do something unconventional with your pick in NC. We were thrilled to be part of an alliance with you and The Gorillas. Both of you are amazing teams. We hope our oddball strategies are starting to get noticed. You can build unique designs and have them succeed.
blazingbronco18
27-04-2015, 22:43
It was ready just after Newton Finals. Preparation of our cheesecake was setting up the mechanism on a stand-in kitbot frame, a wood base on Friday. Saturday morning the plan changed to make it able to tether to 3rd bot with our robot parked OVER it. The mechanism was tested with 5 wraps in the pits while being weighed down with 2 cinder-blocks and 2 sandbags and grabbed the cans in 158 ms AFTER BUCKING NEARLY A FOOT off the ground and shrugging the blocks off. So if our robot could hold it down even better on the field there would be less wasted energy propelling it even faster! Then after auto we would drive off of Tether-Cake and stack some totes while leaving those 2 cans to be tied up the whole match.
Video?
blackbrandt
27-04-2015, 22:48
We don't have to make it as black and white as most people seem to think. FIRST is a great community. Given the nature of the community, I think it can be handled quite simply with a statement of principle and a rule:
STATEMENT (put in a blue box in the rules if you like):
[Note, this post is my opinion and not the opinion of 900-Zebracorns]
That is funny. I think that it is cool that FIRST has nothing in the rules preventing this. I thought that it presented a more unique challenge.
Harshizzle
28-04-2015, 07:07
First of all, congratulations! It was great to see a North Carolina team get recognition on the big stage, and hopefully is a sign of greater things to come from our region.
900 (and 1519) was a common name heard in our strategy sessions week 1, as we noticed the tendency for unconventional robots to win North Carolina. Your full court launcher from 2014 is what fueled us to go with our crazy conveyor belt design. You guys didn't dissapoint, and watching your sleek design swerve around was great.
Now as for the cheescaking, that was inspirational stuff. I was keeping my team updated throughout your whole journey (just ask Chase, he's still in our Facebook group), and we were cheering you on every single step. So no, it wasn't 900's robot that got them picked. It was their guts, determination, boldness, and tenacity that made them a part of that alliance. And I'm okay with that. This isn't just a robotics competition, it's a human one as well, and 900 did what they had to do to make it work.
Having done a robot rebuild in one day (http://www.roboeagles.org/bag-day-the-end-of-an-era/#more-1088) due to weight problems, we know somewhat how driven you have to be to do it. Its pretty cool.
In the future, I'd like a robot with the ability to manipulate game pieces to be more valuable that a light chassis, but this alliance was just playing the cards they were dealt. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
notmattlythgoe
28-04-2015, 08:26
So I have a question about a hypothetical situation.
Using the situation that had happened with 900 asking 1114 to help cheesecake them. If the #2 alliance had picked 900 with their 2nd pick, what would the reaction be?
So I have a question about a hypothetical situation.
Using the situation that had happened with 900 asking 1114 to help cheesecake them. If the #2 alliance had picked 900 with their 2nd pick, what would the reaction be?
I would have commended their bravery. That kind of move takes a lot of guts.
notmattlythgoe
28-04-2015, 08:36
I would have commended their bravery. That kind of move takes a lot of guts.
What would the reaction be if the #1 alliance (hypothetical here not saying anyone would do this) then took their cheesecake back?
What would the reaction be if the #1 alliance (hypothetical here not saying anyone would do this) then took their cheesecake back?
I don't know if we'd let them at that point..... They would be our greatest threat, after all. ;) (joking, maybe).
Honestly, I think the number one alliance would have just let everything happen as things were, because it would have probably been too much effort for alliance number 2 to get the cheesecake working, as that they didn't know it as intimately as 1114.
Now, if the number two alliance brought in their own cheesecake material for us, then things would get interesting!
What would the reaction be if the #1 alliance (hypothetical here not saying anyone would do this) then took their cheesecake back?
At the time of alliance picks, the "cheese cake" wasn't on the bot. We were just finishing up the drive train at the time.
We knew going into this that it there were absolutely no guarantees. We had discussed what would happen if someone else chose us (I believe the final conclusion was that we would accept and ask if they wanted just the drive train or us to reassemble our original bot).
marshall
28-04-2015, 08:50
I would have commended their bravery. That kind of move takes a lot of guts.
Ohh, but would you have given them a cookie too?
Joe Johnson
28-04-2015, 08:54
So I have a question about a hypothetical situation.
Using the situation that had happened with 900 asking 1114 to help cheesecake them. If the #2 alliance had picked 900 with their 2nd pick, what would the reaction be?
THIS IS AN AWESOME QUESTION!
I was going to ask something very similar sometime today when I got few minutes to spare.
Let's suppose 148 had prepared a Harpoon2.0 Bot prior to Championships and that 1114 was incompatible with 148 for some reason and let's suppose further that 900 had approached 148 rather than 1114. Recall that 148 was the #1 seed and 1114 was #2 (behind 148 by a grand total of 7 points -- had they simply tossed two more noodles over the step at some point during 10 qualification matches, their positions would have flipped).
In this situation you have to ask, What Would Karthik Do?
I think we all know this answer: He would advocate for drafting 900 as their second pick just to prevent 148 from getting access to Harpoon2.0 Bot.
What would 900 do then? If they accept, 148 almost certainly would not have allowed Harpoon2.0 Bot to exist at all (recall key bits of kit were designed and built by folks not on Team 900). If they refuse, then their season is over. It is tough ethical choice.
Either way, this really puts the lie to argument that many cheesecaking advocates make: that it is all done in the spirit of Gracious Professionalism. I think one of the features of the draft is that all teams are available for all drafters (with the exception of those who decide they would prefer to captain their own alliance) but in this case, 900 was really only available for one team, no other drafters allowed.
I don't like it. No sir. I don't like it one bit.
Dr. Joe J.
P.S. It has come to my attention that a lot of folks are giving Libby K and others who have said supportive things about Team 900 a hard time over the past few days.
I myself called Libby out for an innocent hyperbole she made about the amount of work Team 900 did. I was wrong to do so. This was a cheap shot and I should have been a better man. I publicly apologize and wish that I could take it back. Libby, I am sorry.
As to you other trolls... ...you need to look in the mirror a bit as well. If there is not space on CD for someone as awesome as Libby to express her thoughts then CD has fallen mightily. We are better than that. JJ
akoscielski3
28-04-2015, 08:55
What would the reaction be if the #1 alliance (hypothetical here not saying anyone would do this) then took their cheesecake back?
We did not start installing the Frog and Lily pad until after we picked them. They already made their new drive train at this point though. We both knew this was a possibility and were prepared if this did happen.
I haven't really said anthing in this thread, but I really have to say thank you to the Inspectors. They were nothing but Graciously professional towards our team (pre-alliance selections) and towards our alliance. They acted as a true FRC Inspection crew should, working with a team to become legal and to meet all of the FRC rules.
I also need to say thank you to Team 900, 148 and 1923. You guys were amazing to work with. It might be the most amazing part of my FRC career.
Also, Congrats to 118, 1678, 1671, and 5012. You guys put everything you had out on the field in SF6, and it was a crazy match. Props to your human player that noodled that can from 118's stack. At first I thought it was during the 20 second end game period, and that there should have been a penalty. However, after reviewing the video 1676 posted yesterday I could tell that we were wrong, and that it was just a perfectly timed noodling. The noodle that put you guys into the finals, an ultimately World Champions.
notmattlythgoe
28-04-2015, 09:09
We did not start installing the Frog and Lily pad until after we picked them. They already made their new drive train at this point though. We both knew this was a possibility and were prepared if this did happen.
But the intent was there from the time 900 approached 1114 correct? I don't know what was said between the teams so I could be wrong.
Again, I want to put out there that I am not insinuating that any team would have done any of the hypotheticals I'm stating. Just starting a discussion to see what people's thoughts on it would have been.
But the intent was there from the time 900 approached 1114 correct? I don't know what was said between the teams so I could be wrong.
Again, I want to put out there that I am not insinuating that any team would have done any of the hypotheticals I'm stating. Just starting a discussion to see what people's thoughts on it would have been.
As I said a little bit earlier, the mechanism was still 1114 and hadn't been handed to us. We knew it was a very long shot and so many things could go wrong. At NO point in time did 1114 make us any promises.
Had some other alliance chosen us, that alliance would have been offered two choices, a drive train which they could strap things on, or reassembling our original robot.
Regardless of what team chose us, we would have done our absolute best to do our most for that alliance. Part of the reason we didn't start disassembling our first robot until AFTER our last qualifying match was we didn't believe it would be fair to the teams we were competing with.
All of that said, I'm not sure 1114 would have been able to find another robot small and light enough to pull off adding the "crossbow". 1114 will have to answer to what their plans were if someone else chose us first.
Ohh, but would you have given them a cookie too?
Of course!
(For those who don't know, I gave 148 a giant cookie after they selected us.)
Kevin Sevcik
28-04-2015, 10:28
Either way, this really puts the lie to argument that many cheesecaking advocates make: that it is all done in the spirit of Gracious Professionalism. I think one of the features of the draft is that all teams are available for all drafters (with the exception of those who decide they would prefer to captain their own alliance) but in this case, 900 was really only available for one team, no other drafters allowed.I think this really is the key point. This level of cheesecaking breaks the whole concept of the draft, since you're not really drafting a robot, you're only drafting a slot to insert the second robot you've built yourself. If this becomes common and accepted, it's not even going to be possible to draft "900" out from under "1114", because "901" and "902" will be lined up with their own kitbots ready for the cheesecake. It's going to happen, because if you're down in the rankings and unlikely to get picked, there's almost no downside to tearing out your electronics halfway through Friday and wiring them onto a cheesecake platter. You still have your original robot that definitely wasn't getting picked, but suddenly you could be drafted by #1 or #2 so they can bolt their second robot on top of you.
I just don't think a game mechanic that encourages teams to teardown to a mini kitbot and wait for someone to pick them and hand them a better robot (some assembly required) is a good game mechanic.
When I learned about the 4 harpoons Friday evening, my instinctual reaction was "we've over-indulged on cheesecake". On the surface it just seems like we may as well get rid of the bags, tags and deadlines - just make build season 4 months (1/3 of our life) long. For teams who regularly attend Champs, that is what FRC has turned into and it doesn't look to change any time soon. The features and tuning race which takes energy to keep up with really escalated this year.
A bit later, I then thought "haters gonna hate", because I got 'it'. Finally, why the Simbots have no problem picking a team who has limited capabilities overall and may even be ranked dead last at an event - it's an oxymoron of selfishness and selflessness was hard for me to understand at first.
Making those 4 structures, tuning them and getting them perfect in 3 days so as to stay within withholding was a monumental task that shows the focus, dedication and selflessness that the Simbots have. With those harpoons, they could guarantee the choke hold strategy if they made it to Finals. They could also single-handedly take a team who has had a rough week and make their day. Rather than becoming an 'expected' middle-of-the-pack Champs experience, a team can take the story of the road to Einstein back to their school/community and propel their program forward. That is what a great team can do for the rest of FRC over time. It's something only the elite few can do. It is something to aspire to.
Regardless of what team chose us, we would have done our absolute best to do our most for that alliance. Part of the reason we didn't start disassembling our first robot until AFTER our last qualifying match was we didn't believe it would be fair to the teams we were competing with.
I agree with you wholeheartedly here. Thursday night, and Friday noon-ish we were discretely approached by the Poofs about frame geometry, coding, available ports, etc. They were obviously looking for a compatible cheesecake partner. On Friday we started getting good with our own strategy, meaning we had two options: continue down our current path, or sandbag in order to attempt to be available for the Poofs. Sandbagging was tempting - 'they're perfect' was overheard by me and another mentor. Yet it would have been major disrespect to to rest of my build team and our Friday partners for us to not play our absolute best with the robot we had.
Such is the life of a specialist on the serpentine draft system.
Ed Sparks
28-04-2015, 10:32
I just want to say that what FRC-900 did was completely amazing and I mean that in the best possible way (my intent). It made me rack my brain, consult the rules, ask a bunch of questions, talk to the various alliance members, consume a bunch of inspector time, etc. I've never been as busy after the alliance pairings as I was on Curie this year ...... and I thought it was great. I want to say that everyone on FRC-900 that I interacted with was the model of gracious & professional. You guys had every right to get a bit frustrated with all of the pressure of pulling this off in the amount of time that you had and having a swarm of inspectors buzzing over your head. Congratulations to you for an amazing effort and especially for not becoming unglued under the pressure.
I hope I have the honor of working your division in the future.
marshall
28-04-2015, 10:36
I just want to say that what FRC-900 did was completely amazing and I mean that in the best possible way (my intent). It made me rack my brain, consult the rules, ask a bunch of questions, talk to the various alliance members, consume a bunch of inspector time, etc. I've never been as busy after the alliance pairings as I was on Curie this year ...... and I thought it was great. I want to say that everyone on FRC-900 that I interacted with was the model of gracious & professional. You guys had every right to get a bit frustrated with all of the pressure of pulling this off in the amount of time that you had and having a swarm of inspectors buzzing over your head. Congratulations to you for an amazing effort and especially for not becoming unglued under the pressure.
I hope I have the honor of working your division in the future.
Ed, believe me when I say that the honor was ours. Thank you for being an amazing person and working with us. It was an absolute pleasure.
Kevin Sevcik
28-04-2015, 10:51
A bit later, I then thought "haters gonna hate", because I got 'it'. Finally, why the Simbots have no problem picking a team who has limited capabilities overall and may even be ranked dead last at an event - it's an oxymoron of selfishness and selflessness was hard for me to understand at first.You know 1114 can totally do that just with their good scouting and picking a dark horse for their 2nd or (now) 3rd pick. I know cause they did that at GLR in 2007. (Their dark horse let them down for embarrassing reasons, but still.) I'm pretty sure getting picked by 1114 or any #1-8 division alliance is going to make a team's day. I'm also pretty sure that having a specialist robot that's working well passed over for a poorly working robot that can be more easily cheesecaked stings a bit. So I'm pretty sure cheesecaking is zero sum at best for overall inspiration.
ryan2640
28-04-2015, 11:53
As I read through this entire thread and all the responses/comments within it, I must conclude in my opinion, in which this story is truly incredible. With myself being apart of team 2640, which is based only an hour or so away from 900, I have gotten the chance to collaborate with the Zebracorns before competition, and playing against them during the Quarterfinals at NC in 2014, and recently fighting it out in the Finals at the 2015 North Carolina Regional as well.
This story is truly significant by itself, but even more important for what is being introduced to FIRST in 2017. I'm sure as every FIRST participant knows by now, that there will be two Championships starting in 2017. For most teams, the most important part of Championship (next to winning ;) ) is the experience of getting to be around hundreds of teams and getting the opportunity to strategize and collaborate with teams from different countries, and different coasts.
With the new Championship setup approaching in 2017, these types of stories could be restricted, due to the designated locations for teams who qualify for championship. For example, just depending on what Championship 1114 gets placed in, 900 may not have the chance to collaborate with them again, and as we all are becoming aware of now, their collaboration this past week was a true beauty of engineering and teamwork.
I am extremely glad that a team so close to home (900) was able to experience the chance to play/collaborate/strategize with hundreds of different teams and was able to partner up with 148, 1114, 1923, in which they made a great run at Championship.
I applaud 900 and their teammates for the accomplishments they achieved. We look forward to seeing/collaborating with 900 in future events during the season and throughout the offseason!
nstephenh
28-04-2015, 16:19
Sweet because this may be something I have our programmers do just as an off season challenge.
I know I'm dragging up an old post, but if you want to know more about our code for this year, we just started up a thread about all our code. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1477930)
I can comment a bit about how things went from a programming side of things. On Thursday, one of our mentors who had been observing 1114 hands me a sheet of paper detailing about how their mechanism worked. At this point we were thinking that we were simply going to remove the superstructure from our robot, and mount whatever crazy contraption they had on our ~50 pound drive train. We quickly looked at the labview examples for doing pneumatics and solenoids, and began redoing our project, removing code for our arm and instead changing it to work with 4 "PWM" Solenoids, 4 Pneumatic solenoids, and 4 winches. Unfortunatly our details weren't exaclty right the first time around, but as our team began working more and more with 1114, we learned more about the design, and eventually learned that we needed to set up 4 solenoids controlled by a singlespike, 4 pneumatic solenoids, and 5 winches. By this time we were only halfway through, and then we learned that our swerve drive was just two heavy, and that 1114 had some java code ready to go for the tank drive KOP that we were buying. We decided that they had probably already tested their code and new more about it, so we ended it at that.
New problems arose the next day when we had to set up a driver station. As a LabVIEW team, I had never seen the Java Dashboard, and it took a lot for 1114 to explain to me what it was. I thougth they were talking about the default one for at least a half hour (sorry). Eventually we copied it out of the tools folder from one of their laptops and dropped it into (hopefully the correct place) onto one of ours. We had no idea if it was going to work though, so we eventually just used one of 1114's laptops. Apparently there was some problem with the version used in inspection, but I have no idea, as I went back to the stands to watch some matches.
I'm sad that we never got to see the robot on the field, but it was fun watching all the matches from down near the field. The experience of working with 1114 and all the rest was amazing, and I know what part of Canada to go to now if I ever want to leave the US. And thankfully I didn't have to do any more programming under pressure on the field (I was the guy at NC regional pushing code at the last second for Team 900, if you were there). Thank you so much 1114, 148, and 1923!
Everyone,
Thank you for the nod to the inspection staff. We are happy to be of help, you really challenged us. This device/assembly/(add your own words) was a challenge to evaluate for legality under the robot rules and to believe it to be safe for the teams and any human close by. I am happy to report that everyone we were involved with, acted with the utmost GP in assisting us with the process. It was obvious that the design team had thought and planned for everything I thought might be an issue. While scary in looks and operation, it contained significant safety features and system backups should anything fail during deployment or operation. I would like to restate for the team involved that you acted with all the decorum expected of a Hall of Fame team and I am proud to have been involved in your endeavor.
Attached is a picture of the device in the transport configuration behind the Einstein fields. Yes it fit!
__________________________
Al, now can you please post a side by side pic of the Robot that Team 900 originally brought to ST Louis to compete with? (I am sincerely interested in asking about exactly what happened to the ORIGINAL ROBOT that Team 900 brought to the competition). Did they leave with 2 ROBOTS in their crate or just 1 ROBOT? ....Was it (their original upon arrival crated ROBOT), completely disassembled firstly (and the existing robot parts used to build the later NEW ROBOT), before building another from the ground up robot in 7 hrs.? (It looks in their video like a brand new kitbot chassis was used).
If not, then how is it possible that they did not exceed the (rules controlled), posted 1 ROBOT weight limits and Total BOM Cost limits? (IE: THE ROBOT must not weigh more than, or cost more than the listed rules limits).
Were the 2 combined/separate ROBOTS more than 125 lbs. or $4,000.00 in total costs? Inquiring minds just wish to know.
Looking forward to reading that Team 900 whitepaper, and learning more about the safety decision(s) & inspection(s) thought process used to deem legal that particular set of mechanisms, not that I actually thought others were any safer really (as is, THE FASTER & FASTER the can burglaring COMPETITION PROCESS became in my mind, AND IN REAL PRACTICE, a CONSTANTLY more unsafe set of circumstances for the involved parties at the direct sidelines of the field every match existed Re: Everyone nearby AS THE COMPETITETION HEATED UP was more than seriously at risk, though we were rather lucky a few times on Hopper field during the playoffs of our Division it could have had other more extreme & dangerous safety results...
(Extremely nervous head ref's and others were the resultant factor)...They knew the dangers involved, and they were quite high. (A Hockey Goalie type mask w/ a hard hat and a Bomb Squad type padded suit for each, rather than just safety glasses was more advisable railside for Ref's, Scorers, FTA's and all others, including all others looking on closely as the only ones truly safe were drivers directly behind the glass, and those sitting in the nosebleed sections of the upper levels of the arena).
Some of the very fastest hooks for grabbing cans BECAME LOOSE shattered/jagged (and non-tethered, very sharp projectiles launched far and wide and often recovered later far away from the field of play & missing heads along the way).
I personally did not see how it got to where it did (I later handed that shattered pc. personally back to our head ref and actually understood then why he was so danged nervous)...Personally, I was too busy setting that scoring switch down gently & quickly on the floor, and heading for cover behind & under the corner of the FTA table myself...Glad I did now, given where it was finally recovered, as I was definitely standing in the direct line of the projected flight path. (The "it" I speak of, weighed about 2~3 pounds, spiked and dangerously shattered jagged 1/2" sched. 40 pvc, a Team 987 type can burglaring cheesecake hook element, that worked famously....and also failed quite dangerously too, all at the same time...time after time).
The game design brought that element of high cheesecaking (and it was only allowed after a rules change, and a Q&A mind changing failure in my opinion).....Frank's ORIGINAL Q&A ANSWER, should never have been changed in my personal opinion as it elevated the dangers involved in the game to alliance wide dangers, from occasional single robot dangers to the participants, officials, and the spectators. (Am personally just glad noone was injured yet...I also know the dangers are not quite yet over either, as other events are to follow soon enough).
Just a personal (up close), opinion is all. The 2015 Shelf Can Wars (and the ensuing high stacking, were fun to watch, but if allowed to continue...and it will soon enough, then a robotwars type fully enclosed arena of play (along w/ a netted top should also be necessary at high levels of competition since you cannot win the war, without battling and winning the highly contested "shelf can wars in 2015 FIRST FRC Recycle rush").
Cheesecaking in 2015 snatches the best, and ramps up the competition for all. ALL PUNS INTENDED.
_________________
Addition:
Al's partial quote:
The robot built/rebuilt by Team 900 contained parts of their robot that was initially inspected at the 2015 Championship and was found to be legal to compete under the Robot and Tournament rules.
Thank you for the explaination AL (sry it was there later in the thread & before my posting, but I was quoting so had not read that far as of yet)...Now can we please see the side by side PICS? (Inquiring minds just want to see the 2 very different ROBOTS side by side!)
Hmmm, seems to me NASCAR has it more right than we do sometimes, just a thought. When you go to the backup car, YOU GO TO THE REAR OF THE FIELD. While you can do so, there are penalties to suffer, but, you can still compete. You still are required to "Run what you Brung" so to speak. While the 2015 FIRST version of Cheesecake can be and was no doubt highly inspiring for a few teams affected, I imagine it was highly mortifying for many mid-stream teams overlooked during the picks. It happened at Regionals, just as much as during the Champs.
While I'm sure there is a huge market for shirts that say
What Would Karthik Do?
I'd like to say that FRC is "The varsity Sport for the Mind (TM)" Lots of people think the "mind" part is over after build, but teams have proven year after year after year the "mind" part isn't over until the buzzer sounds at the last minute.
There was a post earlier this year about how the top teams would have a special advantage at the Saturday alliance selection. This was one of those cases where two top teams used their brains (and CAD) and lots of elbow grease to make things happen on Saturday.
It also re-enforces the reminder that you may think your top roboteers have wrenches in hands, but the roboteers on scouting and alliance planning are keys to the second 6 weeks of the season.
Good story Team 900!
THIS IS AN AWESOME QUESTION!
I was going to ask something very similar sometime today when I got few minutes to spare.
Let's suppose 148 had prepared a Harpoon2.0 Bot prior to Championships and that 1114 was incompatible with 148 for some reason and let's suppose further that 900 had approached 148 rather than 1114. Recall that 148 was the #1 seed and 1114 was #2 (behind 148 by a grand total of 7 points -- had they simply tossed two more noodles over the step at some point during 10 qualification matches, their positions would have flipped).
In this situation you have to ask, What Would Karthik Do?
I think we all know this answer: He would advocate for drafting 900 as their second pick just to prevent 148 from getting access to Harpoon2.0 Bot.
What would 900 do then? If they accept, 148 almost certainly would not have allowed Harpoon2.0 Bot to exist at all (recall key bits of kit were designed and built by folks not on Team 900). If they refuse, then their season is over. It is tough ethical choice.
Either way, this really puts the lie to argument that many cheesecaking advocates make: that it is all done in the spirit of Gracious Professionalism. I think one of the features of the draft is that all teams are available for all drafters (with the exception of those who decide they would prefer to captain their own alliance) but in this case, 900 was really only available for one team, no other drafters allowed.
I don't like it. No sir. I don't like it one bit.
Dr. Joe J.
P.S. It has come to my attention that a lot of folks are giving Libby K and others who have said supportive things about Team 900 a hard time over the past few days.
I myself called Libby out for an innocent hyperbole she made about the amount of work Team 900 did. I was wrong to do so. This was a cheap shot and I should have been a better man. I publicly apologize and wish that I could take it back. Libby, I am sorry.
As to you other trolls... ...you need to look in the mirror a bit as well. If there is not space on CD for someone as awesome as Libby to express her thoughts then CD has fallen mightily. We are better than that. JJ
_________________
Our team was faced w/ the same possibillities earlier in the season at the Las Vegas Regional...I am not a part of the process of Alliance picking on our team and actually was working for FIRST NV at the time (so had no team input), but had a discussion in total hindsight after the event was completed, so the opinion expressed was just my opinion of what I would have suggested, if I were involved in the picking process, for future team reference only.
The situation:
Team 148 and Team 987 were of course on a mission to both prove a point concerning the Dallas Decision. And of course on a mission to capture another title and set of blue banners like any great 2 teams should. They 148 and 987 were seeded #1 & #2...Our team was seeded #3. They started cheesecaking the #41 seeded team early on, and it was duly noted by one of our newer drive team members, and he didn't like the situation personally very much...It was explained to him that it was well within the rules of the game as a game strategic legal method. (In a "Hate the game, not the players!" type of way).
Asked what I would have suggested they do (as far as hindsight, after #1 seeded 148, picked #2 seeded 987), I responded that I would have certainly picked the same as they did on their first choice, then on second choice w/ only moments to go, picked their fully cheesecaked #2 pick. Thereby leaving them to make the tough choice of risking asking for their sweet cheesecake back (which I don't think would happen by either highly respected team), and thereby give them little time to cheesecake another...(though I know they would have), along w/ much fewer legal materials actually onsight to actually do so (though I'm sure they still would have had plenty of materials avail. to do so also), and much less of that even more valuable time avail. to complete the new cheesecaking mission. (Hey, what's good for the Goose, is Great for the Gander! And that Gander LOVES CHEESECAKE TOO!)
I'm glad they didn't do so, and actually picked another team (as all 6 of the eventual Regional Alliance members qualified eventually for Champs by either major awards earned, or by just playing in the finals of the playoffs of that Regional)...But, as a game strategist and very highly competitive by nature...I'll use every fully legal tactic and that rulebook, to win the game...And...You should too! IF DEEMED LEGAL like eventually this year).
But it wasn't how the season actually started off (I had earlier pointed that out once it was done when I thought by the posted rules it wasn't legal to do so in Week #1, and the Q&A original answer verified that, then minds were changed by the eventual uproar, and the Q&A answer was rethought)...That is the real dilemma, and the OP's actual original question elsewhere & pointing to this thread...Should it be legal?
I would have LEGALLY stolen & eaten their sweet cheesecake...And then smiled big, & told them their extremely hard work baking it, was very highly appreciated, and it tastes Soo Darned GOOD TOO! Thank You's, With Smiles All Around.
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I was just hoping someone was actually selling slices of cheesecake at champs this year...I would have gladly purchased more than a few slices myself.
One thing I'd still like to know though, is in the very same Division (Hopper)...I saw most tethered ramps had their Team # license plates fully and proudly displayed...and others...well, they had no license plates at all...And in the Division Playoffs no less.
When I pointed out 1 that had ZERO TEAM NUMBER DISPLAYED...A ref responded...You will have to discuss that w/ the inspectors I guess (who were located in a different building BTW)... That is definitely BIG TIME WRONG in my opinion. It is either legal on the field of play, or IT ISN'T. (The rules are Black writing on White Paper or background)....No grey (gray), appears in the rulebook to me. And it should not to you. (Though there are Blue Boxes).
akoscielski3
28-04-2015, 19:33
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SNIP
SNIP
It would be appreciated if you could take your opinions to the thread about people opinions on this topic (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136919&highlight=Cheesecake). This thread was made by 900 to show people what they made with their alliance partners at Championships this year.
Thank you
Citrus Dad
28-04-2015, 20:05
If you search the posts by many 1678 mentors, you'll find that we complained about this year's game design consistently. We didn't like any of the implications of this year's game (including the bonus of taking the 3rd robot off the field to score the 4 point movement in auto.) We were upfront about our particular strategy and were among the first to come out with it at CVR. There were no surprises from us at Champs. (And then ironically, we never used a cheesecaked robot in the eliminations.)
But I am a big fan of last year's game, at least in concept (and you can find my posts on that as well). It forced the better teams to work with the newer or struggling teams to achieve an ALLIANCE goal, not just the goal of a single team. I've suggested tweaks to last year's overall game approach that could make it a model for teams to pass knowledge among themselves. Right now the incentive is to work alone in secret, not cooperatively, until we get to competitions. We can make FRC more cooperative which would reduce the incentive to cheesecake.
We've added items to our alliance mates in each of the last 3 years. In 2013, we had an FCS at CVR that had to face cheesecaked pool noodle blockers. We developed a successful counter strategy that we used again at Champs. Without the ability to add those blockers, the games would have been decided by FCS machines as soon as they got to the HP station. Thank God for cheesecake to make it competitive.
In 2014, we worked with teams to improve their ability to pass. This often meant removing their shooting mechanism. Again the teams could become much more involved given that there was a single game piece. We also made several rookie teams competitive at Champs by helping them build intakes with our extra parts that they used in all of their matches other than the ones they played with us.
When we select teams, we have two pick lists for two different roles on our alliances. In 2014 in particular, we could not have 2 shooters or 2 midfielders, even if they were the first and second best at their roles. We had to focus on what roles fit our alliance. I know that means that we are passing over some worthy robots that are particularly good at their targeted tasks, but those tasks don't fit into our alliance structure. You can't ask us to rethink our alliance strategy to fit your robot's characteristics unless it's going to improve our expectations about our alliance's performance.
The GDC can make some big changes that encourage inter-team development, which I won't repeat here. We can make all of us better with just a few thoughtful changes.
___They started cheesecaking the #41 seeded team early on, and it was duly noted by one of our newer drive team members, and he didn't like the situation personally very much...It was explained to him that it was well within the rules of the game as a game strategic legal method. (In a "Hate the game, not the players!" type of way).
Actually, this isn't true. We didn't start working with 5012 until after alliance selection. All 7 other alliances had the chance to choose them. They were great, and should have been picked much earlier. :)
Chris Fultz
28-04-2015, 20:48
The GDC can make some big changes that encourage inter-team development, which I won't repeat here. We can make all of us better with just a few thoughtful changes.
Just a thought, but maybe the "all three robots" in the zone for the auto points was to encourage teams to help other teams write a basic auto code to move into that zone?
Just a thought, but maybe the "all three robots" in the zone for the auto points was to encourage teams to help other teams write a basic auto code to move into that zone?
If so, they clearly didn't playtest their game at all, because 4 points per match is not worth any programmer's time to spend on other teams' robots.
Kevin Leonard
28-04-2015, 21:07
If so, they clearly didn't playtest their game at all, because 4 points per match is not worth any programmer's time to spend on other teams' robots.
But if all three teams also push a tote, then its 4 for the robot set and 8 for the tote set.
12 points/match for writing autonomous modes that drive straight forward for all your partners could be huge, especially at earlier events.
marshall
28-04-2015, 21:12
But if all three teams also push a tote, then its 4 for the robot set and 8 for the tote set.
12 points/match for writing autonomous modes that drive straight forward for all your partners could be huge, especially at earlier events.
We tried REALLY hard to convince teams of this in Palmetto. Zero takers as I recall... maybe one or two but mostly teams didn't want to drive forward for some easy points. We didn't force easy code on them... we did ask though.
But if all three teams also push a tote, then its 4 for the robot set and 8 for the tote set.
12 points/match for writing autonomous modes that drive straight forward for all your partners could be huge, especially at earlier events.
But that involves assuring the complete cooperation of your alliance, which is always next to impossible. Much more efficient to just do everything yourself, especially in qualification matches, when you have little time to liaise with your partners.
Jon Stratis
28-04-2015, 22:15
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Al, now can you please post a side by side pic of the Robot that Team 900 originally brought to ST Louis to compete with? (I am sincerely interested in asking about exactly what happened to the ORIGINAL ROBOT that Team 900 brought to the competition). Did they leave with 2 ROBOTS in their crate or just 1 ROBOT? ....Was it (their original upon arrival crated ROBOT), completely disassembled firstly (and the existing robot parts used to build the later NEW ROBOT), before building another from the ground up robot in 7 hrs.? (It looks in their video like a brand new kitbot chassis was used).
If not, then how is it possible that they did not exceed the (rules controlled), posted 1 ROBOT weight limits and Total BOM Cost limits? (IE: THE ROBOT must not weigh more than, or cost more than the listed rules limits).
Were the 2 combined/separate ROBOTS more than 125 lbs. or $4,000.00 in total costs? Inquiring minds just wish to know.
I'm not Al, but I was part of the group that inspected them immediately prior to Einstein, so I think I can shed some light on these questions.
First, there is no rule against building mechanisms or combining mechanisms while at a competition - and a robot is, after all, just a collection of mechanisms.
Q&A 429 states:
Q. We are seeking clarification for R4. If a robot has two interchangeable mechanisms such that only one of them can be on the robot at a time. Would that robot be able to be counted under two weights for two different configurations, One weight for mechanism A and one weight for mechanism B? Or would both mechanisms need to be included together in the final robot weight?
A. If you're intent is to go through Inspection once, everything must be included, and thus under the weight limit (per R4). Alternatively, you can pass Inspection with the first element, but if you want to switch it out for the second element, you must be reinspected with only that second element and compete with that element (per T10). If you want to go back to the first element, you must be reinspected with the first element again.
Per this Q&A, their reinspection only included the elements present on the "harpoon bot" - any elements previously on their robot that were left in their pit were not included for weight purposes.
As for cost,
R9 The total cost of all items on the ROBOT shall not exceed $4000 USD. All costs are to be determined as explained in Section
4.4: Budget Constraints. Exceptions are as follows:
Given the wording (emphasis above mine), I think we can take the cost aspect and treat it the same as the weight - elements not included in the robot inspection were not included in the BOM.
I can't speak to the total cost of everything - I never saw the original BOM, just the final BOM before Einstein. For weight, however, the final robot was just about 120lbs - there was no way that plus whatever they had previously was under 120.
Watching that last semi-final match was insane I was on the edge of my seat. I think MrJohnston also made some points that I feel are correct. Recycle Rush at its core was a game of consistency. I am personally not a fan of telling robots to sit and just wait for the end of the game (especially since this year there was no defense, or endgame. Finding a job was more challenging).
This was my first year getting to know FRC and seeing what it was all about so my understanding of past years may be a bit foggy. I've talked with countless teams at several events this year and have heard stories from all sides. I can understand where you're coming from with a distaste for teams being told to sit on the sideline. I remember one team in particular I worked with struggled early on. It was heartbreaking to see how down the team was about being told to stay out of the way during qualification rounds. It was also very gratifying to see the difference in their faces as we fixed issues they were having and had them climbing the charts and being a larger part of their team's success.
But, that's apples to oranges. None of the teams in this thread feel pushed aside. In fact, it's strange to me to suggest a can burglar staying out of the way the rest of the match isn't an integral part of the team. The consensus agrees the most important part of this year's strategy was the can race. If we agree this is true, the most important part of a team's success is the robot grabbing the cans. Even if they're idle the rest of the match, they play the most important role on the team. How is this fundamentally different than a robot with the sole purpose to go disrupt the other team's strong robot? The amount of time being active doesn't change the importance of a robot nor that team's role in decision making. Why are we acting as if it does?
I think we're losing something in all of this debate. FRC isn't about robots. You can gather the purpose behind FIRST from Dean's promos. It's about inspiring the next generation to find a higher purpose than idolizing shooting a ball through a net. Too many of us forget there's more to being an engineer than putting together an amazing machine. The soft skills some of these kids are showing are just as incredible as the machines they put together. Are we really preparing them for the real world if we penalize using soft skills to collaborate? We're quick to credit 1114 for designing half the robot. We're slow to recognize 900 for putting together a base that could accept that robot and stepping out of an engineer's comfort zone to work with peers. We're ignoring the team was able to successfully network with their peers, their competition, and staff to come together towards a common goal. Isn't developing those skills a key component to what FIRST is about?
One of the teams I worked with this past weekend was a second pick at their regional. If you look at the three teams, it's not difficult to see which robots were handling the event. Their robot wasn't a strong robot at the competition. But, that's not all there is to the event. They worked with their alliance to develop a strategy that won. At worlds, they weren't frustrated about that experience. They were proud of their banner and one of the more solid teams I worked with. When obstacles came into their path, they were telling their mentor how they were going to move forward. They maintained relationships with the teams from their regional and used these relationships to help get through their current obstacle. With this, they spread their network to include other teams all while showing poise that left me in awe. Their networking skills helped them be selected to elimination rounds at worlds. They're leaving multiple events with new friends and new resources they can use to build their knowledge and excitement. Isn't that at the core of what FIRST is all about?
Reading back to the ramps thread....
______________________________________
Al Skierkiewicz
Broadcast Eng/Chief Robot Inspector
AKA: Big Al WFFA 2005
FRC #0111 (WildStang)
Team Role: Engineer Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Wheeling, IL
Posts: 10,327
Re: Ramps
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I guess this is really an issue that revolves around the one rule that is absent this season and that is the sizing rule. In an indirect way, it also involves what we inspect as ROBOT. This season, there is no size restriction other than Transport Configuration. We have to inspect everything but it must fit inside the Transport Configuration at some point. (Which by the way is the configuration that all robots must be in when moving from pit to field and back.) If your robot is an unlimited size, it still needs to be one and only one, ROBOT. Teams that choose to have a separate part of the robot that is either passive or active, must still show that there is only one robot (See R1 below) on the field for each team. While others are trying to point to a specific rule, we must consider that the manual is something that needs to be taken as a whole. Some sections speak to robot size, some to position, some to starting position but overall everyone of them speak about THE ROBOT. As a small sample...
R1 A Team must submit their ROBOT for Inspection. The ROBOT must be built by the FRC Team to perform specific tasks when competing in RECYCLE RUSH. The ROBOT must include all of the basic systems required to be an active participant in the game – power, communications, control, and movement. The ROBOT implementation must obviously follow a design approach intended to play RECYCLE RUSH (e.g. a box of unassembled parts placed on the FIELD, or a ROBOT designed to play a different game does not satisfy this definition).
or
R3 The ROBOT must satisfy the following size constraints:
A. during a MATCH, the ROBOT height may not exceed 78 in.
B. the ROBOT must be able to be arranged into a TRANSPORT CONFIGURATION with dimensions which do not exceed 28
in. wide, 42 in. long, and 78 in. tall.
Please note that these use the singular rather than "a" showing a clear intention that each team build and use just one robot. I believe that tethers, whether containing power or simply passive ropes, satisfies the one robot of unlimited size.
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Good Luck All. Learn something new, everyday!
Al
WB9UVJ
www.wildstang.org
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I don't have issues or an issue with what happened in the end (as I knew when the GDC re-evaluated that Q&A answer and made the rules changes they did that is was bound to happen that many would end up competing w/ much that were not what they actually originally designed and built during build season, but what others actually designed later, but am still attempting to understand how we go from building THE ROBOT (and ENTERING ONLY 1 ROBOT in competition)...to competing with a completely different robot on Einstein Field in less than 3 days and still be in compliance w/ said rules as listed above and not violate either the weight or max. cost issues. (Unless THE ROBOT entered was completely disassembled into the COTS condition pre-assembly...It was still a robot (and the new ROBOT is also a robot), albeit maybe not a working robot at the time. Whatever mass is left assembled, should have counted toward total weight in my opinion is all).
Theoretically then, each match could be (if reinspected between every match of course), played with a completely different robot by each team...Soon, the pit spaces will need to each be enlarged to accomodate a whole hardware store of COTS parts & raw materials each.
And Each Team, will also need a place to park their personal machine shop trailer next to their pit also. We'll look like NASCAR soon enough!
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BTW...Congrat's to ALL the participants of a great Championships...Especially to the WINNERS / FINALISTS! And all the Award winners too.
Citrus Dad
29-04-2015, 02:25
Just a thought, but maybe the "all three robots" in the zone for the auto points was to encourage teams to help other teams write a basic auto code to move into that zone?
If the GDC wants to encourage such cooperation, they need to make the incentive strong enough. Getting 3 teams to cooperate for the same number of points that a single human player can score with one noodle is not a strong incentive. The incentives in the 2014 game were more in line with what's needed. But most importantly, the message from the GDC that the game will require interrobot actions needs to come in September so the teams can work together PRIOR to build season.
kellyerin91
29-04-2015, 09:48
Seriously, thank you to all of the inspectors. You were all amazing. Also, a massive thank you to the lady from NI who happened to have the updated driver station software on a flash drive. You are amazing!
I'm the lady from NI! I was so glad to be able to help your team out. Pro-tip: All of the CSA's (orange hats) have flash drives with the software on them. And if they don't, spare parts sometimes has them as well!
marshall
29-04-2015, 13:29
I'm the lady from NI! I was so glad to be able to help your team out. Pro-tip: All of the CSA's (orange hats) have flash drives with the software on them. And if they don't, spare parts sometimes has them as well!
Thank you again! 900 has had a busy year with NI and everyone there has been great to work with. I hope we can keep up the collaboration and can help with future beta testing if we ever need to.
OccamzRazor
29-04-2015, 14:38
I personally thought this was a brilliant albeit risky strategy based on the situation. I really liked how jokingly one of the students on 1114 told me it was a T-Shirt cannon they were building in that pit despite how obvious it was that they were building a high speed can burglar with tools going at warp speed :)
I am happy to see North Carolina teams compete on Einstein since it is such a rare occurrence. I have never seen such a crazy tactic in 13 years of FRC. NC sent a record 9 teams to Championships this year so I am ecstatic that one of them was team 900! This is a classic example of thinking outside of the box and using real engineering tools to complete a challenge like many of us practicing engineers on this forum find every day at work. Just like 900, you come up with a solution nobody knew existed or that nobody would dare try. Crazy ideas really do make the best solutions.
Thanks to team 900, our own team 3506 YETI had an amazing season because they shared a strategy with us that worked again and again.
Congratulations to ALL of the division winners 148, 1114, 1923, and 900!
-Robbie
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