The first human vs robot off season event - Long Island

[Sperkowsky]

Hello all,

So after reading the human vs robot thread I got to thinking. I talked to other members on my team and we decided it would be a good idea to host an off season frc event in long island NY with a game changing twist.

One alliance is Robots and the other is Humans.

We have a few rules in mind to level the playing feild like humans being forced to do coop with a 40 point penalty if they dont do and no reward for doing it. Humans are also not allowed to grab the cans off the step (for safety reasons). And other things but please give us some ideas.

Teams would consist of
the normal drive team plus every team would submit their own Humanoid. The HDs will be required to wear hard hats labeled with their team #.

Ok so you have an idea of what it is like but we need your help.

1.We have never hosted an off season event what are some important logistics to keep in mind.

2.is it ok if the pits are slightly separate from the field meaning they would have to go through 2 doors to get from pits to the field.

3. How many volunteers

4. are any of you guys interested

and biggest of all estimated cost to run

I would really like to hear what LI/NYC teams want. None of us now how this ill go as it has never happened. If any other teams want to help email

For NYC teams - Public tranportation (LIRR) is about 1 mile from the school. Its not too bad of a walk (20 minutes or so) there is a public bus but its not great and only comes every hour or so.

For teams who cant attend dont worry there will be a full hd stream setup with gopros, shoulder rigs, and a couple of high powered capture cards.

anyway we need your help but we will make this happen and we are excited.

[Louis_]

I would LOVE to do this if it wasn't so far away :(

[Whippet]

I would LOVE to do this if it wasn't so far away :(

... ditto.

[Shrub]

Can the humans wear moon shoes/high heels? I feel like they should be able to.

[Sperkowsky]

Can the humans wear moon shoes/high heels? I feel like they should be able to.

This is something we argued on. We ended with no.

One of the robots advantages is them being able to use their height. We assume people will make the tallest people on their teams humanoids so it shouldnt be an issue.

The other thing we argued on speaking of this is having fabricated peices to help like little can pullers, or small arms. We again agreed no because it would then not be a full human vs robot event.

Besides high heels seem like a bad idea when you are running around stacking bins

[MrTechCenter]

1.Where you're getting the field from, who your key volunteers are going to be, how are you going to fund it, secure facilities, are you going to feed people, get word out to teams, etc.

2.That's typical for an offseason competition and even at some regionals, we've had to walk across an entire school campus before, it's not that big a deal.

3. Once you hit your key volunteers (refs, FTA, scorekeepers, emcee/game announcers, pit admin) and enough people for field reset the rest just depends on how big the event is going to be and how you plan on running things.

4. I would be if I didn't live on the opposite coast.

You can put on an offseason for pretty cheap.

I've been one of the leads on the planning committee for our offseason event for the two years we've held it. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

[Sperkowsky]

1.Where you're getting the field from, who your key volunteers are going to be, how are you going to fund it, secure facilities, are you going to feed people, get word out to teams, etc.

2.That's typical for an offseason competition and even at some regionals, we've had to walk across an entire school campus before, it's not that big a deal.

3. Once you hit your key volunteers (refs, FTA, scorekeepers, emcee/game announcers, pit admin) and enough people for field reset the rest just depends on how big the event is going to be and how you plan on running things.

4. I would be if I didn't live on the opposite coast.

You can put on an offseason for pretty cheap.

I've been one of the leads on the planning committee for our offseason event for the two years we've held it. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

Thanks for the response.

We think the field will most likely come from Andymark as it seems like the easiest way to go. for volunteers we will mostly have parent help. for things like refs, fta, and other roles you have to be trained for we will have to get in contact with those people in our area. I know there are people quite close that are trained we just need to get them involved.

Thats good we werent sure. The HHH competition has everything in one gym. Its still well run but a little tight. The nice thing about our school layout is that both cafeterias and both gyms are all in a row. We would most likely have the small cafe as the meal area. The large cafe as the pits. The gym for the event, and the small gym for a practice field plus volunteer space.

we will be measuring the areas to figure out how many teams we can fit pit wise in our large cafe. We are going to start with 7 by 7 pits so teams still have enough room to work on their robots. The gym can fit plenty of people and with small enough pits are cafe can also fit a lot but we have to limit it so we dont get overwhelmed.

We will most likely ask you some questions later about your experience. Ive been talking to my friend from gymnastics who is on 3624 and we will probably get in contact with their whole team later on as they have been doing it for quite a few years.

thanks again :)

[Shrub]

This is something we argued on. We ended with no.

One of the robots advantages is them being able to use their height. We assume people will make the tallest people on their teams humanoids so it shouldnt be an issue.

The other thing we argued on speaking of this is having fabricated peices to help like little can pullers, or small arms. We again agreed no because it would then not be a full human vs robot event.

Besides high heels seem like a bad idea when you are running around stacking bins

That does make sense. Although running in heels isn't too bad.

Best of luck with your event, though! If its able to happen I'd love to see video.

[RomeroFRC5012]

Why does everything fun have to be so far away?

[Rosiebotboss]

How large is your budget? Who's your sponsor?

From AM website-a field is a minimum of $5000 including an FTA (look it up) with zero game pieces.

Full A/V is another $5-7,000 with webcasting.

Is the venue going to charge you rent? Do you have to hire security? (Many schools require police / EMTs to be on site)

How are you going to power the pits? If you have to rent a generator, that's another $1200. (Including Union Electricians fees to run the cable.)

That is just some of the details you need to consider.

[planetbrilliant]

I would totally try to attend with my team if it wasn't so far, good luck! Please post video of this when it happens!

[Basel A]

This sounds fun and all, but it sounds more like it would be a fun component of a regular offseason competition, in the same way that an offseason would have mentor matches.

[mastachyra]

After autonomous, if there are still cans on the step, would it still be unsafe for humans to grab them? I don't think you should assume the cans will be gone in auto.

Also, would humans teams get to play against other human teams?

[Sperkowsky]

How large is your budget? Who's your sponsor?

From AM website-a field is a minimum of $5000 including an FTA (look it up) with zero game pieces.

Full A/V is another $5-7,000 with webcasting.

Is the venue going to charge you rent? Do you have to hire security? (Many schools require police / EMTs to be on site)

How are you going to power the pits? If you have to rent a generator, that's another $1200. (Including Union Electricians fees to run the cable.)

That is just some of the details you need to consider.
If we need to bring in our sponsors we will but you seem to be overestimating the price quite a bit. It's only going to cost around 2k- 3k to get the full Andy mark package. For av we don't have to worry much as we already have all the equipment on hand at school. For web casting I'm going to personally bring my own equipment. It won't cost too much at all. Our school most likely will provide security guards for us along with one of our mentors being a trained nurse.

[Sperkowsky]

This sounds fun and all, but it sounds more like it would be a fun component of a regular offseason competition, in the same way that an offseason would have mentor matches.
Well since there is already an off season quite close we wanted to put a crazy twist on it for the whole time. In latter years this will not be possible as alliances are not seperate so we want to do it big while we can.

[Sperkowsky]

After autonomous, if there are still cans on the step, would it still be unsafe for humans to grab them? I don't think you should assume the cans will be gone in auto.

Also, would humans teams get to play against other human teams?
Good point. Being there's only 2 or 3 teams I know of in our area there will be bins on the step. Also I don't know about human to human matches we haven't considered that.

[Lil' Lavery]

This sounds fun and all, but it sounds more like it would be a fun component of a regular offseason competition, in the same way that an offseason would have mentor matches.

This.

Make these an exhibition match during part of a normal off-season. Don't make the whole off-season humans vs. robots.

[Sperkowsky]

This.

Make these an exhibition match during part of a normal off-season. Don't make the whole off-season humans vs. robots.
We want it primarily humans vs robots but we understand that this is a novelty. We think Elims will be robot vs human and quals, semis, and finals will be robot vs robot along with a second final of the top 3 seeded humans.

[Jarren Harkema]

Not to be a downer, but has anyone tried this yet? If it is fairly easy to get humans to clear the field in 2:15 then why host an event where you know the humans win? Humans have their own set of eyes for seeing behind stacks easier, they can step over noodles, and if they are tall, cap 6-tote stacks no problem. Humans can easily flip upside down totes, pull totes off the step, and reorient totes coming out of the chute.

[Koko Ed]

You may also want to consider requiring the human player to wear helmets in case a robot accidentally reaches over and come in contact with a human who is busy gathering totes near the step. Better safe than sorry.

[lethc]

After autonomous, if there are still cans on the step, would it still be unsafe for humans to grab them? I don't think you should assume the cans will be gone in auto.

Also, would humans teams get to play against other human teams?

Humans can't grab the cans in auto, but they can in teleop as long as they're the only ones touching. Add a penalty for the human team if they contact a can at the same time as a robot

[Deneb]

After autonomous, if there are still cans on the step, would it still be unsafe for humans to grab them? I don't think you should assume the cans will be gone in auto.

Also, would humans teams get to play against other human teams?

I feel it would be safe enough for humans to grab cans as long as a robot is not in the process of grabbing or aligning to grab cans. I also think it would lose excitement for two human teams to compete against each other. I feel like if the red side was strictly humans and blue was strictly robots, each team would alternate through the competition to 50% human and 50% robots. In eliminations, it would probably be best to do each match twice where both alliances compete against the other alliance's robots and vice versa. This could consume time, but would be nice to keep it balanced.

It'll be interesting to see co-op human stacking. Sounds like last year a little bit.

[SJaladi]

Not to be a downer, but has anyone tried this yet? If it is fairly easy to get humans to clear the field in 2:15 then why host an event where you know the humans win? Humans have their own set of eyes for seeing behind stacks easier, they can step over noodles, and if they are tall, cap 6-tote stacks no problem. Humans can easily flip upside down totes, pull totes off the step, and reorient totes coming out of the chute.

^This.

I'm almost positive that if you try this with any three reasonably coordinated humans, they would be able to score every tote on the field and behind the driver station in 2:15 as well as capping off 3 of the stacks with noodled RCs. The only place where a robot will probably beat a human is in can grabbing in auton.

[GreyingJay]

^This.

I'm almost positive that if you try this with any three reasonably coordinated humans, they would be able to score every tote on the field and behind the driver station in 2:15 as well as capping off 3 of the stacks with noodled RCs. The only place where a robot will probably beat a human is in can grabbing in auton.

This was discussed in the other thread about robots vs humans - if the robots grab those cans, then they can theoretically put up 7 42-point stacks for 294 points (plus autonomous and coop).

Humans could put up three 42-point stacks but would have to stack 84 more totes (14 more stacks) to equal this. I think you would actually run out of space on the scoring platform.

[Sperkowsky]

You may also want to consider requiring the human player to wear helmets in case a robot accidentally reaches over and come in contact with a human who is busy gathering totes near the step. Better safe than sorry.

thats already something we have down. Not for that reason but falling stacks

[Sperkowsky]

^This.

I'm almost positive that if you try this with any three reasonably coordinated humans, they would be able to score every tote on the field and behind the driver station in 2:15 as well as capping off 3 of the stacks with noodled RCs. The only place where a robot will probably beat a human is in can grabbing in auton.

Humans cant hold 6 bins with recycling bin on top and walk with them.

Humans might win every time but its still a fun challenge

[SJaladi]

Humans cant hold 6 bins with recycling bin on top and walk with them.

Humans might win every time but its still a fun challenge

Humans can stack 6 totes with a recycling bin on top and slide it on to the step. Even faster would be one human slides stacks of 6 and another puts bins on top.

I'm sure the event would be fun, I personally would love to try playing a human match, but I'm just saying test it out before finalizing the event so that any issues can be addressed. That'll make for a much smoother event.

[WillNess]

offseason would have mentor matches.

Which offseason event is this?

[MikeE]

Which offseason event is this?

BattleCry (http://www.wpi.edu/news/Events/BattleCry/) at WPI for one, although maybe not this year

[Metonym]

For teams who cant attend dont worry there will be a full hd stream setup with gopros, shoulder rigs, and a couple of high powered capture cards.

Are you putting the GoPros on the shoulder rigs? Cause that might turn out worse than Orlando 2014... /s

I'm sure you aren't. But you can't forget that go pros don't do well indoors and most cameras won't be able to steam without use sort of connection and that connection can't interfere with the field. Are you using HDMI? That won't give you as much length as a superior connection like SDI (not the star wars program :p).

[Sperkowsky]

Are you putting the GoPros on the shoulder rigs? Cause that might turn out worse than Orlando 2014...
No no. I'll rig up my d7000 with a 35mm lens and follow focus to the rig and have the lead match videographer use it If there's one thing I can promise it is good video

[Sperkowsky]

Humans can stack 6 totes with a recycling bin on top and slide it on to the step. Even faster would be one human slides stacks of 6 and another puts bins on top.

I'm sure the event would be fun, I personally would love to try playing a human match, but I'm just saying test it out before finalizing the event so that any issues can be addressed. That'll make for a much smoother event.
Thanks for the advice after some testing today we concluded in the higher level matches with better teams it will be close. Other then that the human wins. That's why we opted for Elims to be human matches and have the rest robot to robot so there is still a competitive aspect.

[BHS_STopping]

I'm just excited to see the battle for the center cans...

[Mr V]

For the field and game pieces I'd start by checking with the districts that are near you. I'm not sure if NE or MAR would be willing to do so but the PNW district fields are rented out for off-season events. Last season that is what was used by Chezy Champs and the demo event at the Salt Lake City Comicon, in addition to the two in district off-season events. We included the use of game pieces when the field is rented. For the in-district events a rental truck with a liftgate is used to transport the field. Before the PNW District came into existence it cost around $10,000 for the round trip shipping for the field and FMS.

[Dr. Shocker]

That's why we opted for Elims to be human matches and have the rest robot to robot so there is still a competitive aspect.

Does this mean that you could draft Human teams and Robot teams separately? Or will each team play an even number of matches in all elims matches so that their average score can factor in their performance as humans?

I definitely think it is a good idea to save it for the end though so that you don't have everyone get physically exhausted while potentially working with dangerous robots.

[Sperkowsky]

Does this mean that you could draft Human teams and Robot teams separately? Or will each team play an even number of matches in all elims matches so that their average score can factor in their performance as humans?

I definitely think it is a good idea to save it for the end though so that you don't have everyone get physically exhausted while potentially working with dangerous robots.
I meant it opposite sorry. Qualms wills be robot vs human. And then people just draft robots for elims. But the 2 top seeded human players will draft human players for their team and there will be a finals round of human vs human.

That's where we are development wise. Over the weekend we are going to choose a name branding start typing rules schedule the whole nine yards.

[dag0620]

To add on to what Mr. V said.

I would highly look into either getting your field from a nearby district if possible. Both MAR and NE loan their fields, however I'm not sure if either loan them outside of the district.

With that said, your very lucky enough that FIRST HQ is relatively close. I would get a field from them over AndyMark, because your shipping expenses would be much much cheaper.

[Sperkowsky]

To add on to what Mr. V said.

I would highly look into either getting your field from a nearby district if possible. Both MAR and NE loan their fields, however I'm not sure if either loan them outside of the district.

With that said, your very lucky enough that FIRST HQ is relatively close. I would get a field from them over AndyMark, because your shipping expenses would be much much cheaper.
We will look into it. We would need a carpet but I heard half hollow hills brought this year's carpet home so we shall see if we can rent it from them or give me then free entry.

[Matt_Boehm_329]

Can humans be over 6 ft 6? and how will they be disabled for violations xD

[Eric Scheuing]

Just keep your head down, and you'll be fine :P

[Sperkowsky]

Can humans be over 6 ft 6? and how will they be disabled for violations xD
I haven't met too many 6 week old humans who are over 6ft 6.

[Tinmint1]

The tin mints would be interested in this since wvrox isn't happening this year

[Sperkowsky]

Update 2:

So we have decided on a name

The Cyborgames


Right now we are in the process of figuring out the cheapest way to secure a field.

Andymark has been ruled out since it will cost over 3k in travel expenses. At this point it down to first hq or Mar. Both will be similarly priced depending on whether the Thundercolts (or other surrouding team with this years carpet) will lend us their carpet.

We will be meeting with the school board to figure out a date and whether we can have access to all facilities.

The game rule book is also being worked on.

Team 1796 offered to help host the event which will be a great help!

Right now our biggest issue is finding volunteers who are qualified for positions like FTA's, Refs, and scorers.

With some rough estimates it seems we can accomadate about 35-40 teams with 7 by 7 pits.

theres still a lot to work out but it should be fun!

Heres the first rev of the Logo!

(http://i.imgur.com/UHfCzoM.png)

Thank you

[Alan Anderson]

With some rough estimates it seems we can accomadate about 35-40 teams with 7 by 7 pits.

Have you ever tried to do anything in a 7x7 pit? That's half the space teams are used to.

[cmrnpizzo14]

If this happens I'll make the trip down for it! I would love to show my stuff, I think I could take most of the robots!

[Sperkowsky]

Have you ever tried to do anything in a 7x7 pit? That's half the space teams are used to.
This was the first year my team said they ever had the pleasure of 10x10 pits at sbpli. At nyc some pits were 8x8.

At the off season event we attend (hhh) we had 6 by 6 pits. All real work can be done in our shop which is a short walk away so if a team really needs to work on their bot it should be ok.

[Sperkowsky]

Hi all!

Update #3

http://i.imgur.com/OyJIZMv.png
Final Logo! - Imgur made the gear purple for some reason dont worry its blue.

I personally got a lot of work done on the google doc. Here is the link to it
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vQbUyaa4lAHnS45J0YMP1vCSDu521LWzrXTD-JpRHjs/edit?usp=sharing

I allowed commenting but please dont abuse the power otherwise I will have to remove it.

We planned on a proposal on monday but we realize we need more information. We are going to make more accurate measurements of the facilites along with sketching up layouts.

We also have to figure out power as we dont know whether we will blow something running 30 pits in a single room.

We have to find qualified volunteers so if anyone is in the area please PM me!

We havent gotten responses to any of our emails to mar, or hhh. We are going to wait till we have all of our options weighed before we decide on where to get the field.

We also had the idea to take out noodles entirely. They are confusing and annoying.

Pros
Fun to throw noodles at humans
fun to throw noodles in general
can give human players something to do if they arent a feeder station bot
look cool flying through the air

cons
will be extra cost for us
make field reset harder
an get tangled in wheels
will make driving harder


I want to hear your votes on that!

Thats it for today more updates soon!

Thank you - Sam

[Mr V]

For transporting the field I suggest having a Mentor do it. Shipping is expensive and you can rent a 26' truck with a liftgate in our area for about $100 per day, plus the fuel.

[Sperkowsky]

For transporting the field I suggest having a Mentor do it. Shipping is expensive and you can rent a 26' truck with a liftgate in our area for about $100 per day, plus the fuel.
I put that in the doc for the option from first hq. Do you need a truck license though.

[nighterfighter]

I put that in the doc for the option from first hq. Do you need a truck license though.

No, just a regular driver's license.

http://www.uhaul.com/Trucks/26ft-Moving-Truck-Rental/JH/

[KyleH]

I would LOVE to do this if it wasn't so far away :(

I agree 100%. This sound awesome!

[Mark McLeod]

Do you have an idea of when you'd hold this event?

There are two other Fall off-season's on Long Island, one in late September (533 Lindenhurst) and the other in mid-November (3624-Half Hollow Hills).

We have all the key volunteers on Long Island, we'll just need the date to see who is able to make it. Your team leader can email me to get those started and I can get him the key volunteer contact info.

[Sperkowsky]

Do you have an idea of when you'd hold this event?

There are two other Fall off-season's on Long Island, one in late September (533 Lindenhurst) and the other in mid-November (3624-Half Hollow Hills).

We have all the key volunteers on Long Island, we'll just need the date to see who is able to make it. Your team leader can email me to get those started and I can get him the key volunteer contact info.

Sometime in october. we wont have an exact date untill we meet with the school board but that should be very soon. Thanks

[Alex2614]

We ran the first ever FRC event in our state as an off-season, and we did a 26-hour endurance event, so we learned a thing or two about "non-traditional event" logistics.

First thing, as your first event, I would restrict it to 24 teams. This is the minimum you need for a competition, and it keeps your numbers low so you can work out the "bumps in the road" at first.

Second, I would go to some other off-seasons, have your students and mentors volunteer, and have them pay attention to the small details that make these events run smoothly. Ask them about how they handle registration, volunteer coordination, etc. The little things are what can make or break an event. Things like having printed schedules for every team (the FMS system can do that for you), having a centrally-located screen to display real-time ranking information (FMS video output), who is running the A/V (FTA can usually help with the FIRST side of the A/V system), floor markings for robot and human directional travel, signs for where things are, concessions, etc. Keep an eye out on all of those things and have your students and mentors write stuff down. This (http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/How%20to%20Host%20an%20Off-Season%20FRC%20Event%20%28May%202011%20Edition%202 %29.pdf) is a document provided by the guys that run IRI. There is a lot of helpful information there. There is also the list of volunteer positions for an official event (http://www.usfirst.org/community/volunteers/frc-volunteer-event-positions) and FIRST's web-page about hosting off-season events. (http://www3.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/invitational-tournament-criteria-and-considerations)

I'm not sure about the accuracy on all of those pages, though, because we got our field from AndyMark, which included things that FIRST says are not included. I'm guessing you can get a field from either FIRST or AndyMark? Because ours came with carpet, game pieces, etc. We also got an FTA staff from AndyMark.

[Sperkowsky]

We ran the first ever FRC event in our state as an off-season, and we did a 26-hour endurance event, so we learned a thing or two about "non-traditional event" logistics.

First thing, as your first event, I would restrict it to 24 teams. This is the minimum you need for a competition, and it keeps your numbers low so you can work out the "bumps in the road" at first.

Second, I would go to some other off-seasons, have your students and mentors volunteer, and have them pay attention to the small details that make these events run smoothly. Ask them about how they handle registration, volunteer coordination, etc. The little things are what can make or break an event. Things like having printed schedules for every team (the FMS system can do that for you), having a centrally-located screen to display real-time ranking information (FMS video output), who is running the A/V (FTA can usually help with the FIRST side of the A/V system), floor markings for robot and human directional travel, signs for where things are, concessions, etc. Keep an eye out on all of those things and have your students and mentors write stuff down. This (http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/How%20to%20Host%20an%20Off-Season%20FRC%20Event%20%28May%202011%20Edition%202 %29.pdf) is a document provided by the guys that run IRI. There is a lot of helpful information there. There is also the list of volunteer positions for an official event (http://www.usfirst.org/community/volunteers/frc-volunteer-event-positions) and FIRST's web-page about hosting off-season events. (http://www3.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/invitational-tournament-criteria-and-considerations)

I'm not sure about the accuracy on all of those pages, though, because we got our field from AndyMark, which included things that FIRST says are not included. I'm guessing you can get a field from either FIRST or AndyMark? Because ours came with carpet, game pieces, etc. We also got an FTA staff from AndyMark.

Thanks a lot. Yea I wish we could use andymark as we wouldnt have to buy game pieces, carpet, tape ect but its 661 miles away costing us 3k for transportation alone.

[Mr V]

Thanks a lot. Yea I wish we could use andymark as we wouldnt have to buy game pieces, carpet, tape ect but its 661 miles away costing us 3k for transportation alone.

Contact the people running the NE and MAR districts. They should have a ton of game pieces if they are anything like us. FIRST shipped the PNW district ~800 totes, ~800 noodles and ~30 Recycling containers. We had one tote that was damaged and we have 400 noodles that are still shrink wrapped on the pallet they came on in addition to the ones that survived DCMP. While we gave away a lot of the carpet we always keep 2 sets just for off season events and then get rid of that just before the new season starts.

[Sperkowsky]

Contact the people running the NE and MAR districts. They should have a ton of game pieces if they are anything like us. FIRST shipped the PNW district ~800 totes, ~800 noodles and ~30 Recycling containers. We had one tote that was damaged and we have 400 noodles that are still shrink wrapped on the pallet they came on in addition to the ones that survived DCMP. While we gave away a lot of the carpet we always keep 2 sets just for off season events and then get rid of that just before the new season starts.
Neither have replied. We will keep trying. The good thing is if we do end up having to buy a set of 100 totes it won't go to waste as we will probably use quite a few as long term storage.