View Full Version : Windows 10
FlamingSpork
03-05-2015, 18:53
This year, my team (3003) used the Windows 10 Technical Preview for our main driving/programming laptop. We (happily) had few issues, other than some networking glitches.
Are any other teams using/planning on using Windows 10?
I know that many teams probably won't upgrade because Windows 7 is very stable and there is no reason to upgrade.
Our programming mentor had issues with windows 8 on his surface, i bet he will go to 10 when it comes out. Our school seems to want to get chromeboxes for everything, but our building (the engineering/FFA part is split off from the rest of the school) still has really nice laptops, and those are probably going to keep windows 7, though we may ask to put a few to 10 just to keep them updated.
pastelpony
03-05-2015, 19:02
If it wipes all of our software, no. I don't feel like re installing LabVIEW again.
JohnSmooth42
03-05-2015, 19:05
Anything that isn't Vista or 8 is something I would use. My god setting up the DS before a match with 8 is annoying.
Staying with Windows 7, I absolutely hate 8.
MrRoboSteve
03-05-2015, 22:59
We pave our machines each year so that we have a known baseline (meaning we do a full reinstall each year), and will use either 8.1 or 10 based on whether 10 is supported.
jojoguy10
03-05-2015, 23:12
We used Windows 8.1 this year with few problems. I like the "latest and greatest" (as the programming mentor). We'll probably switch to 10 when it comes out.
Munchskull
03-05-2015, 23:47
I don't know about the rest of my team but my personal cad computer (aka my gaming tower) will be upgraded. Hope solidworks sit works soild.*
* pun %997 intended.
Ichlieberoboter
04-05-2015, 01:33
We used 7 this year. I would have preferred 8, actually, but we used those ghastly little laptops you can get for 40 points that make you want to punch someone. We have a rather small budget.
By ghastly little laptops, do you mean the Clamshells?
Our programmers all have their own laptops (minus the two clamshells we have now), and some are W8. I think our DS laptop is 7 though.
Since Microsoft isn't selling Windows 7 anymore... The copies of 7 in the pipeline will eventually dry up. We use 8.1 on our competition DS & 7 on the practice bot DS. Didn't see any differences other then the 8.1 user interface being slight annoying.
We will wait for at least one service pack release before we move to next version. With Microsoft, the leading edge has been the bleeding edge.
Windows 7 support will not go for few more years, by then MS will have some stable version.
protoserge
04-05-2015, 13:48
I would not plan on using Windows 7 past its supported timeframe. Windows 10 will be a free upgrade for the first year, so I'd highly recommend taking that route.
SolidWorks will work fine on Windows 10 - Dassault Systems would be hard pressed to make software that did not work on their customer's computers. Since SolidWorks sponsors FIRST, you will be given a license to the software that will work on it.
Anything that isn't Vista or 8 is something I would use. My god setting up the DS before a match with 8 is annoying.
I'm curious what issues you had that make you say this?
This is a tad off topic, but please bear with me ;)
I think it would be time for NI to make a Linux version of the driver station.
All the other development tools for Java and C++ already work in Linux, and are easier to set up and even smoother to use. I was able to download and install Java 8 JDK using apt-get in about 5 minutes and Eclipse was really just a large download and unzip. I preferred using Ubuntu for Java programming this year because it gave me no issues rapidly changing networks. It's also much easier to connect to the robot network as well as the internet at the same time.
Linux has very robust networking capabilities, so that would mean less connection drops on the field.
Linux is very fast. My laptop takes up to 20 seconds to wake up from sleep in Windows; It takes 1-3 seconds in Ubuntu, to get to the lock screen.
Some of the most common distributions like Ubuntu are really easy to use and have most of the nitty-gritty Linux maintenance tasks automated.
The biggest plus: Linux is free it works on most typical laptops. It'll give a good performance on many lower-end laptops and be usable.
I'd be up to making a driver station version which is completely cross platform myself if I had the RoboRIO protocol. It doesn't seem like much of a challenge. Instead, it's the motivation which is lacking.
protoserge
05-05-2015, 08:47
This is a tad off topic, but please bear with me ;)
I think it would be time for NI to make a Linux version of the driver station.
All the other development tools for Java and C++ already work in Linux, and are easier to set up and even smoother to use. I was able to download and install Java 8 JDK using apt-get in about 5 minutes and Eclipse was really just a large download and unzip. I preferred using Ubuntu for Java programming this year because it gave me no issues rapidly changing networks. It's also much easier to connect to the robot network as well as the internet at the same time.
Linux has very robust networking capabilities, so that would mean less connection drops on the field.
Linux is very fast. My laptop takes up to 20 seconds to wake up from sleep in Windows; It takes 1-3 seconds in Ubuntu, to get to the lock screen.
Some of the most common distributions like Ubuntu are really easy to use and have most of the nitty-gritty Linux maintenance tasks automated.
The biggest plus: Linux is free it works on most typical laptops. It'll give a good performance on many lower-end laptops and be usable.
I'd be up to making a driver station version which is completely cross platform myself if I had the RoboRIO protocol. It doesn't seem like much of a challenge. Instead, it's the motivation which is lacking.
It would not make sense for NI to have to run support for additional operating systems. Focusing on one basic common operating software (Windows) helps reduce software issues by eliminating the need to spread resources and cross-compile. This (FRC) isn't a commercial product and doesn't have the same requirements or an income stream that would lend itself to such a large cost increase. Adding one full time engineer to develop and maintain a separate branch of the driver station could cost NI $150-250k depending on what the fully-burdened cost of that employee is.
Windows as an operating system isn't really a factor in connection issues on the field. Most connection issues are caused by robot electrical issues and improperly configured driver stations. On a properly configured laptop, Windows can boot in seconds as well (it can boot to the desktop in 20 seconds from being off).
The cost of the operating system also isn't really a factor in the overall scheme of things.
Ben Wolsieffer
05-05-2015, 09:16
It would not make sense for NI to have to run support for additional operating systems. Focusing on one basic common operating software (Windows) helps reduce software issues by eliminating the need to spread resources and cross-compile. This (FRC) isn't a commercial product and doesn't have the same requirements or an income stream that would lend itself to such a large cost increase. Adding one full time engineer to develop and maintain a separate branch of the driver station could cost NI $150-250k depending on what the fully-burdened cost of that employee is.
I think the only way it would work effectively is if the driver station could only run on Linux. It would be a huge pain for the FTAs to add another large variable (operating system) into the debugging process, not to mention the cost of maintaining the separate build, like you mentioned.
On another note, though, it doesn't seem like it would be very hard for NI to make the driver station work on Linux, because (I'm pretty sure, I haven't had much experience with it) LabView can be compiled for Linux without many/any changes.
FlamingSpork
05-05-2015, 10:32
The cost of the operating system also isn't really a factor in the overall scheme of things.
The reason we used the Technical Preview was because we couldn't easily obtain Windows 7 without paying Microsoft.
Linux has very robust networking capabilities, so that would mean less connection drops on the field.
We actually had some issues with networking on our (Windows 10) driver laptop.
MrRoboSteve
05-05-2015, 10:40
Robotics teams shouldn't be paying for Windows licenses.
http://www.microsoft.com/about/corporatecitizenship/en-us/nonprofits/software-donations/
Alan Anderson
05-05-2015, 11:59
Windows as an operating system isn't really a factor in connection issues on the field. Most connection issues are caused by robot electrical issues and improperly configured driver stations.
On the other hand, my experience is that Windows is the single biggest factor in problems switching from on-field networking to in-pit networking. There are probably things that the Driver Station can do to make it work better, but they would basically be workarounds for inconsistent and undesired Windows behavior.
On another note, though, it doesn't seem like it would be very hard for NI to make the driver station work on Linux, because (I'm pretty sure, I haven't had much experience with it) LabView can be compiled for Linux without many/any changes.
I think it's the specifics of the USB drivers that would make a Linux version of the Driver Station harder to implement than one might assume.
feverittm
05-05-2015, 14:41
Robotics teams shouldn't be paying for Windows licenses.
http://www.microsoft.com/about/corporatecitizenship/en-us/nonprofits/software-donations/
However, if you look at the eligibility for this program. Schools as specifically NOT included (they have different terms under their Volume pricing information for schools).
Doug Frisk
05-05-2015, 15:45
The reason we used the Technical Preview was because we couldn't easily obtain Windows 7 without paying Microsoft.
You're going to have to pay for that Windows 10 license eventually as well.
An OEM system builder license with full media is pretty cheap, almost certainly much cheaper than any hardware you're putting it on. http://smile.amazon.com/Windows-8-1-System-Builder-64-Bit/dp/B00F3ZN2W0/
If that's too expensive, I'd suggest you use the provided classmate.
protoserge
05-05-2015, 16:30
However, if you look at the eligibility for this program. Schools as specifically NOT included (they have different terms under their Volume pricing information for schools).
This doesn't exclude all FRC teams. Many operate with 501(c)(3) status independent of a school system.
MrRoboSteve
05-05-2015, 17:20
Alternatives:
Many robotics teams have 501c3 nonprofit booster clubs. That org can receive the free software. It is exactly the same approach that Autodesk and Dassault use to provide their software to teams. There are many other benefits of having a 501c3, aside from free software. More info at http://thinktank.wpi.edu/article/105
Alternately, you could buy licenses under the school's enterprise agreement for much cheaper than the retail price.
Many schools have programs that provide inexpensive licenses to employees/students.
Finally, if you know someone who works for Microsoft, if you politely ask they might buy you licenses from the company store and donate them.
DareDad, there are many paths for consumers to upgrade to free win10. http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/about has details.
FlamingSpork
05-05-2015, 17:24
We went with the Technical Preview because we needed Windows quickly and couldn't wait for the school IT department. If we had circumvented them and used the school's volume license, they would detect it and torture us.
We were using other laptops before we obtained this one, but we kept running out of RAM when compiling.
How much RAM is optimal for programming in Java for FRC in Windows 10 Tech Preview? I might put it on my old netbook which I don't use anymore! However, that laptop's too slow for even smooth Ubuntu performance. The book has 2 GiB of RAM so I don't know if that'll work. It's the bottom of the line for Windows.
You're going to have to pay for that Windows 10 license eventually as well.
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/about
FlamingSpork
06-05-2015, 10:33
How much RAM is optimal for programming in Java for FRC in Windows 10 Tech Preview?
I really don't know, as our team uses C++. Sorry!
However, that laptop's too slow for even smooth Ubuntu performance. The book has 2 GiB of RAM so I don't know if that'll work. It's the bottom of the line for Windows.
Our laptop was (allegedly) preloaded with Windows 7. Microsoft thinks that Windows 8 and 10 have similar system requirements, so you might be better off with a light-weight Linux distro.
MrRoboSteve
06-05-2015, 13:12
2G should be adequate on Windows for a robot program in C++ or Java. I'd spend $50 on a SSD if you don't have one, as it makes a big difference on build times.
This year, my team (3003) used the Windows 10 Technical Preview for our main driving/programming laptop. We (happily) had few issues, other than some networking glitches.
Are any other teams using/planning on using Windows 10?
I know that many teams probably won't upgrade because Windows 7 is very stable and there is no reason to upgrade.
[Developer for Windows 10 here]
Windows 7 is obviously the most stable windows version out there as of now, and works fine for us. As a developer, we have actually been able to eliminate more bugs than in the past versions of windows at this stage, so it should be stable. We're aiming to release in early August, so there will be another 5 months of updates we can release before kickoff so we might be able to reliably use Windows 10 in the next season. Hope that helps.
Personally I've found that Windows 8.1 takes up massive amounts of memory (I have 8gb) such that SolidWorks will throw a "low memory" error after a few hours of running, even if nothing else is open. It might just be my computer, but I'm probably going to try Windows 10 later to see if it helps.
Personally I've found that Windows 8.1 takes up massive amounts of memory (I have 8gb) such that SolidWorks will throw a "low memory" error after a few hours of running, even if nothing else is open. It might just be my computer, but I'm probably going to try Windows 10 later to see if it helps.
Before you throw the white flag, I'd make sure it's a problem that needs such big change. When it gives that kind of error, use the Windows 'Resource Monitor' to find out what is using the most memory - just go to the 'Memory' tab and click on total read / write to see what's using the most memory. There could be a background program eating it that you don't notice. If that's the case, use 'Task Manager' to end the process to free up that memory.
An OEM system builder license with full media is pretty cheap, almost certainly much cheaper than any hardware you're putting it on. http://smile.amazon.com/Windows-8-1-System-Builder-64-Bit/dp/B00F3ZN2W0/
Word of warning, buying an OEM version of windows 8/8.1 will give you a non-genuine copy of windows, as you are not using it for resale. Anything windows 7 or earlier is okay.
http://www.howtogeek.com/197232/microsoft-is-misleading-consumers-with-windows-8.1-system-builder-licensing/
FlamingSpork
25-05-2015, 15:33
Personally I've found that Windows 8.1 takes up massive amounts of memory (I have 8gb) such that SolidWorks will throw a "low memory" error after a few hours of running, even if nothing else is open. It might just be my computer, but I'm probably going to try Windows 10 later to see if it helps.
I really can't say whether 10 is better than 8.1 with memory because coding/compiling and driving doesn't use all that much RAM.
If Windows 10 doesn't have good memory handling, I would recommend Linux, which works quite well on low-RAM systems. (My main Linux computer has only 2GB of RAM.)
Personally I've found that Windows 8.1 takes up massive amounts of memory (I have 8gb) such that SolidWorks will throw a "low memory" error after a few hours of running, even if nothing else is open. It might just be my computer, but I'm probably going to try Windows 10 later to see if it helps.
Did you check to see how much RAM is actually being used? SolidWorks may give you a low memory error because it's running out of GDI objects, which isn't actually a problem. I get the error all the time on my laptop with windows 8.1 and 6 gb of RAM, but I've never had solidworks close or crash, even after the critical system resource error shows up multiple times. It seems that an update to solidworks caused these warning to show up a bunch on many computers for some reason.
mman1506
25-05-2015, 20:23
Did you check to see how much RAM is actually being used? SolidWorks may give you a low memory error because it's running out of GDI objects, which isn't actually a problem. I get the error all the time on my laptop with windows 8.1 and 6 gb of RAM, but I've never had solidworks close or crash, even after the critical system resource error shows up multiple times. It seems that an update to solidworks caused these warning to show up a bunch on many computers for some reason.
I have 24gb of ram and I get those errors at 40% allocation.
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