View Full Version : [FRC Blog] When is a Game Hint not a Game Hint?
When is a Game Hint not a Game Hint?
Blog Date:
Friday, October 2, 2015 - 17:46
There are probably a few good answers to this question, including:
1. When it’s not preceded by words equivalent to “This is a game hint”
2. When it’s a video teaser for the season
Answer number one I think many of you are familiar with, as we’ve said something along those lines several times in this blog.
Answer number two is probably new to you.
We’re trying something very new for the 2016 season, something many folks at FIRST HQ are excited about. Game hints have a long history in FRC and are enjoyed by many. However, while they can be fun, it would be hard to argue that they ‘make FIRST loud’ by reaching outside the tent to people that are not already familiar with FIRST and FRC.
We are currently having a video teaser produced for the 2016 FRC season. The teaser is almost, but not quite, like a trailer you might see for a new movie or game being released. Like the folks that make game trailers, we’re keeping in mind people outside the tent, folks that don’t already know a new game is coming out and already plan on ‘lining up at midnight on release day’ to buy it.*
Folks inside the tent have not been forgotten, though! While the details of the game will still be secret until Kickoff on January 9th, you will be able to learn much about the upcoming season by watching the teaser. It is season-specific, and not something we will be able to use again after the 2016 season is over. Folks interested in hints will likely find plenty. Hints, and more than hints.
The teaser will be ready in a couple weeks. Look for details on how it will be released soon, and start thinking about what an epic teaser release party would look like.
Frank
*Been there. On the sidewalk outside the GameStop in Epping, NH. OK, with my sons, because they wanted to. That’s my story.
This could be interesting...
jkelleyrtp
02-10-2015, 18:18
It is season-specific, and not something we will be able to use again after the 2016 season is over.
Whoa I'm already excited for the 2016 season but now I'm afraid these CD people are going to figure out the game before Jan 9. As much as I want to see game hint, I sure hope it's not too revealing.
Oh I can see how they could create a video that would you would never think it was a FRC game. Matter of fact there are lots of video's lasting 2-3 minutes out there today with robots moving around. Lots of you have seen them and you are still going "Wait, stacking totes, is that a game?!?" :rolleyes:
Looking forward to seeing the "trailer", just hope that I don't see any trailers in it. (aka Lunacy)
lriddick
02-10-2015, 18:55
"""TENT""
TNET T-net tennis net, volleyball, water polo. yep its a water game. yes i had to go there
EDesbiens
02-10-2015, 18:58
It could have a link with the fact that it is the last year with only one CMP...
Oh wow were getting a video hint this years that is filled with many hint so excited to see the video in a few weeks :ahh:
The correct answer is:
ALWAYS
Even the official game hints are (heretofore) actually hints for the game titles, which doesn't really tell you much about the game. Looking at the last eight:
2015 Recycle Rush: Rushing is the worst thing to do, and most teams score more by littering than recycling.
2014 Aerial Assist: robots didn't fly, and assists as scored in the game were a completely different thing than they were in the sports the clues were based on.
2013 Ultimate Ascent: It used Frisbees, but wasn't much like Ultimate. Well, we did ascend as an endgame bonus, so about 1/4 of a hint.
2012 Rebound Rumble: I don't recall seeing any rebounds; balls were usually picked up after they had become stationary. Not much of a rumble either; probably the least defensive interaction between 2001 Diabolical Dynamics and 2015 Recycle Rush.
2011 Logomotion: Sorry, those logos didn't move, just the individual elements.
2010 Breakaway: I don't get this name at all. It would have made more sense as a way to describe the endgame of Logomotion.
2009 Lunacy: Had nothing to to with the moon, though it did call the sanity of the GDC into question.
2008 First Overdrive: But you drove under the overpass. Though it was the one game where pure speed was a winning strategy.
I'm taking my time with this one to try to convince myself to not obsess over the game hint (again) this year. To paraphrase The Animals:
Oh, mentors, tell your children, not to do what I have done: spend December in CD misery, in the thread of Game Hint One.
Justin Montois
02-10-2015, 20:39
This is going to be very.........interesting.
I would be curious to see if anyone with some time on their hands to make a trailer using any prior years game that wouldn't give away 90% of the game.
I feel like this is going to create a situation regarding teams prototyping based on this trailer, especially seeing as though it will be "ready"(Released?) in just a couple weeks.
Over 2 months before kickoff seems like a lot.
Caleb Sykes
02-10-2015, 21:00
This should be awesome. I'm looking forward to it.
I would be curious to see if anyone with some time on their hands to make a trailer using any prior years game that wouldn't give away 90% of the game.
What do you mean? The game reveal videos don't give away 90% of the game; probably more like to 30-50%. Just looking at Recycle Rush, the game reveal video gave no clues about problems and activities that were crucial to many teams' success or failure:
How much litter got in the way of driving and scoring (and occasionally got caught inside a lift or other mechanism).
Tetherbots, whether active stackers or passive ramps (or butlers or nets).
Pre-capping stacks, or even scoring pre-built stacks.
Can Burglaring, much less can battles
Noodling cans over the wall.
How small, cluttered, and messy the field would be.
And things people thought about or were explicitly shown in the video, but were not useful strategies:
Robots throwing things across the step
Vortex cannons
Noodle Nets
Really tall stacks (more than 6 totes)
Noodle cones
Robots manipulating noodles
PayneTrain
02-10-2015, 21:06
No one's talking about the big story = the vanilla version of the game was developed before November.
I honestly don't see any way this turns out well. If they reveal very little of the game, it's just more fodder for the game hint-crazed crowd (which I once found interesting, but not in the past 4 or 5 years). If they reveal some of the game, it gets into a "longer build season" situation, because if I think I know what the game piece, I'm going to start working on how to manipulate it. And you probably will too.
If a picture is worth a thousand words, and a video is at least 24 pictures per second,
CD is going to explode into a 2,000 page thread come December.
RufflesRidge
02-10-2015, 21:38
I would be curious to see if anyone with some time on their hands to make a trailer using any prior years game that wouldn't give away 90% of the game.
Someone did it way back in 2009: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2PVBqi9dyE
No one's talking about the big story = the vanilla version of the game was developed before November.
I seriously expect that this is the case most years. Some of the more credible rumors indicate that games are at least rough-planned three or four years in advance. They just keep it under wraps until the last minute. Sometimes, the small size of the "need to know" group shows, as with the noodle agreement last year.
And as far as useless game hints are concerned, the 2009 video cited above gave no useful clues at all about the game or game pieces until the final still, when the empty cells and super cells were shown (without any sense of scale).
pandamonium
03-10-2015, 05:19
Releasing a video in October lends even more credibility to the football theory. FIRST wants to create hype about the football game through out the football season. We still will not know what type of football game piece is used or how big the scoring target is.
notmattlythgoe
03-10-2015, 05:33
Releasing a video in October lends even more credibility to the football theory. FIRST wants to create hype about the football game through out the football season. We still will not know what type of football game piece is used or how big the scoring target is.
If by rumors you mean FIRST literally saying that they develop the games 3 years in advance then yes that is true.
If by rumors you mean FIRST literally saying that they develop the games 3 years in advance then yes that is true.
I have only been able to find this mention of the GDC trying to design future games for more than one season in advance. http://www.usfirst.org/aboutus/nljun11/frchighlights
I believe it may be more of a goal than a reality...
I have only been able to find this mention of the GDC trying to design future games for more than one season in advance. http://www.usfirst.org/aboutus/nljun11/frchighlights
I believe it may be more of a goal than a reality...
A more recent reference: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-frank-answers-fridays-11112013
PayneTrain
03-10-2015, 12:43
I seriously expect that this is the case most years. Some of the more credible rumors indicate that games are at least rough-planned three or four years in advance. They just keep it under wraps until the last minute. Sometimes, the small size of the "need to know" group shows, as with the noodle agreement last year.
And as far as useless game hints are concerned, the 2009 video cited above gave no useful clues at all about the game or game pieces until the final still, when the empty cells and super cells were shown (without any sense of scale).
I'm keenly aware that this is almost always the case.
AdamHeard
03-10-2015, 15:01
Releasing a video in October lends even more credibility to the football theory. FIRST wants to create hype about the football game through out the football season. We still will not know what type of football game piece is used or how big the scoring target is.
What football theory? FIRST has never hinted at footballs.
Michael Hill
03-10-2015, 15:41
What football theory? FIRST has never hinted at footballs.
I don't think you "get" FRC hint theory. lol
FIRST doesn't have to ever hint at anything for us to generate theories (e.g., water game).
Justin Montois
03-10-2015, 16:18
What do you mean?
I mean I think theres a chance there will be enough shown for teams to spend the next 2 months prototyping at least some aspect of the game.based on their best interpretation of the video.
I do agree that the 2009 video is a great example of what I hope this teaser is. I'm just afraid they might give away too much.
EDesbiens
03-10-2015, 16:24
I mean I think theres a chance there will be enough shown for teams to spend the next 2 months prototyping at least some aspect of the game.based on their best interpretation of the video.
I do agree that the 2009 video is a great example of what I hope this teaser is. I'm just afraid they might give away too much.
I don't think they'll give away too much... They know what to do and how to do it... The previous hints were nicely done...
Doesn't ANYBODY remember the 2007 game hint? It showed a SCORED GAME PIECE.
And nobody got the hint fully right.
Think about that for a minute.
EDesbiens
03-10-2015, 17:45
Doesn't ANYBODY remember the 2007 game hint? It showed a SCORED GAME PIECE.
And nobody got the hint fully right.
Think about that for a minute.
It's the first time I see this hint and I love it :)
I do agree that the 2009 video is a great example of what I hope this teaser is. I'm just afraid they might give away too much.
Mind linking the hint? im having trouble finding the actual hints, just guesses on when they would come out.
While trying to find what the hint was, i found this gem:
What about a game with pool noodles. You would have to gather them from an overhead storage area or off the floor and put them through holes in the player stations. I saw a similar idea on a FIRST chatroom somewhere and refined it (if you can call it that). What do you think?
Christopher149
03-10-2015, 19:32
Mind linking the hint? im having trouble finding the actual hints, just guesses on when they would come out.
Post 14 (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1498512&postcount=14) of this very thread. Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2PVBqi9dyE).
MooreteP
03-10-2015, 19:33
There are probably a few good answers to this question, including:
1. When it’s not preceded by words equivalent to “This is a game hint”
2. When it’s a video teaser for the season.
"This is a game hint" precedes the whole blog post. Uh-oh.
Now I'm focussed on "Game Stop".
Could this be like Diabolical Dynamics from 2001 where you could stop the game early to receive Bonus points?
Game History (http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/uploadedFiles/Who/FIRST_History/FRC_Game_Summaries_Photos.pdf)
The alliance multiplies its score by a factor of up to three by ending the match before the two minute time limit.
T'was a great way to make the match schedule.
Post 14 (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1498512&postcount=14) of this very thread. Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2PVBqi9dyE).
my bad for missing that, thank you.
Justin Montois
05-10-2015, 22:29
It's also worth mentioning that this year will be the 25 Year Anniversary for FRC, so I think that is playing a role here as well.
What football theory? FIRST has never hinted at footballs.
I don't think you "get" FRC hint theory. lol
FIRST doesn't have to ever hint at anything for us to generate theories (e.g., water game).
--
I have opinions and they're right because reasons!!!
I am very excited about this trailer for the new season. It is a cool way to get students intrested in the program by showing them a glimpse of what the next year may look like. In addition for outreach and sponsors this will be awesome to show others what our next season may look like. Makes for easier explanations as well. Thanks FIRST for this new change!
The_ShamWOW88
06-10-2015, 16:32
It's also worth mentioning that this year will be the 25 Year Anniversary for FRC, so I think that is playing a role here as well.
Quarter century mark, quarterbacks throw footballs.....football game conf....I kid, I kid...
However, I do think this video will be interesting to see. I'm of the belief that the video itself won't show much more than FIRST promotional clips and hype to get those "outside the tent" interested in this whole robot thing....with a little , tiny, bone of a hint thrown at us wolves.....
EDesbiens
06-10-2015, 16:44
with a little , tiny, bone of a hint thrown at us wolves.....
It's exactly the image of all FIRST participants when we discover the hint... :)
Chris is me
06-10-2015, 18:10
Doesn't ANYBODY remember the 2007 game hint? It showed a SCORED GAME PIECE.
And nobody got the hint fully right.
Think about that for a minute.
Not true - someone figured out the hint the same day it was posted. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=543915&postcount=116) The image is gone, but Greg managed to correctly predict the game piece and the method of scoring fairly quickly.
Pedantic points about old game hints aside, I think this announcement is pretty big. Obviously, something is different enough about this game that we need to know about it two months in advance. That's unprecedented in FRC. In the era of ample COTS parts and a relatively stable set of rules, the main reason I can see FRC wanting to tell teams in advance is to avoid having them stocking up on parts they would need any other year, but not this year. Or possibly to prepare to drive and play on a drastically different field surface. To me this advance notice, combined with the several comments about how this is a game specific hint, implies that the hint will reveal that the game will be drastically different from anything in years' past.
...the main reason I can see FRC wanting to tell teams in advance is to avoid having them stocking up on parts they would need any other year, but not this year. Or possibly to prepare to drive and play on a drastically different field surface. To me this advance notice, combined with the several comments about how this is a game specific hint, implies that the hint will reveal that the game will be drastically different from anything in years' past.
Possible, but I would have thought that after the general disapproval of Recycle Rush (which I don't share) the GDC would go for something more traditional. I guess anything is possible, we'll just have to wait and see.
Caleb Sykes
06-10-2015, 19:32
It's also worth mentioning that this year will be the 25 Year Anniversary for FRC, so I think that is playing a role here as well.
I bet that it's going to be some kind of football game, and they tie the 25th anniversary of FRC to Super Bowl 50.
My predicted game name: "Halftime!"
Doug Frisk
06-10-2015, 19:44
I bet that it's going to be some kind of football game, and they tie the 25th anniversary of FRC to Super Bowl 50.
My predicted game name: "Halftime!"
Makes sense, but is it going to be an aerial game or a ground game? Could it be an asymmetric game where one alliance is on offense and the other on defense?
I bet that it's going to be some kind of football game, and they tie the 25th anniversary of FRC to Super Bowl 50.
My predicted game name: "Halftime!"
Then each match would be 1.25 minutes long?:yikes: It autonomous is going to be half the match. (I'm kidding, BTW)
On a (slightly) more serious note, perhaps the GDC thinks that it'll take more than six weeks to figure out how to manipulate the gamepiece. For example: one of those rubber ducks that Frank posted a video of. :rolleyes:
~Daler
tindleroot
06-10-2015, 20:01
My predicted game name: "Halftime!"
Get ready for robots that play instruments and march in time.
It's also worth mentioning that this year will be the 25 Year Anniversary for FRC, so I think that is playing a role here as well.
Other interesting 2016 Anniversaries:
100th Anniversary of Einstein's Theory of Relativity
20th Anniversary of Dolly the Sheep being cloned
Other interesting 2016 Anniversaries:
100th Anniversary of Einstein's Theory of Relativity
20th Anniversary of Dolly the Sheep being cloned
"Introducing the 2016 FIRST Robotics Competition and this year's game, 'Halftime is Relative!'";)
EDesbiens
06-10-2015, 20:20
"Introducing the 2016 FIRST Robotics Competition and this year's game, 'Halftime is Relative!'";)
Introducing "We clone the Relative Halftime!"
Introducing "We clone the Relative Halftime!"
Lol. That'd be something... :P
EDesbiens
06-10-2015, 20:29
Lol. That'd be something... :P
Each alliance need to reproduce an object in less then 2 min while playing music and altering the fabric of time and space... A pretty simple game in my opinion :yikes:
mastachyra
06-10-2015, 21:03
Not true - someone figured out the hint the same day it was posted. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=543915&postcount=116) The image is gone, but Greg managed to correctly predict the game piece and the method of scoring fairly quickly.
Pedantic points about old game hints aside, I think this announcement is pretty big. Obviously, something is different enough about this game that we need to know about it two months in advance. That's unprecedented in FRC. In the era of ample COTS parts and a relatively stable set of rules, the main reason I can see FRC wanting to tell teams in advance is to avoid having them stocking up on parts they would need any other year, but not this year. Or possibly to prepare to drive and play on a drastically different field surface. To me this advance notice, combined with the several comments about how this is a game specific hint, implies that the hint will reveal that the game will be drastically different from anything in years' past.
Maybe the field shape is different. This might need to be revealed for off-season competition planning. A triangular or circular field might not fit in some high school gyms.
In any case, I am very interested to see this thing.
Maybe the field shape is different. This might need to be revealed for off-season competition planning. A triangular or circular field might not fit in some high school gyms.
In any case, I am very interested to see this thing.
That would be quite interesting. I hope the field isn't the shape of the FRC logo. :P
A triangular field with three alliances would be interesting...
~Daler
EDesbiens
06-10-2015, 21:06
That would be quite interesting. I hope the field isn't the shape of the FRC logo. :P
A triangular field with three alliances would be interesting...
~Daler
I'd rather do an hexagonal field than a triangle one for three alliances...
Zebra_Fact_Man
06-10-2015, 21:09
Makes sense, but is it going to be an aerial game or a ground game? Could it be an asymmetric game where one alliance is on offense and the other on defense?
Think 2006: autonomous starts with all 6 robots kicking/shooting field goals on their end.
Alliance with most field goals made goes on offense first. Offense-Defense alternates.
New game piece that no FRC team has ever worked with. Format is 10 years old, so all students and most mentors will be new to it.
Doug Frisk
06-10-2015, 21:14
Maybe the field shape is different. This might need to be revealed for off-season competition planning. A triangular or circular field might not fit in some high school gyms.
In any case, I am very interested to see this thing.
At some point I can see FIRST changing the dimensions of the field, but given the number of fields in private hands any change that make their investment worthless wouldn't be well received.
So from that standpoint I would think that triangles and circles are very unlikely.
I'd rather do an hexagonal field than a triangle one for three alliances...
You are right; a hexagon would make more sense. Personally, I'd like the field shape to stay the same as it is now.
~Daler
'inside the tent' makes me think of mergers & acquisitions. Maybe a new model for alliances?
'inside the tent' makes me think of mergers & acquisitions. Maybe a new model for alliances?
Maybe (like the step, truss, pyramids, bridges, etc ) 'the tent' will be a part of the field?
~Daler
Get ready for robots that play instruments and march in time.
Over 1/2 of the team is in band? Check.
We got this game.
Ginger Bread
06-10-2015, 22:54
Maybe (like the step, truss, pyramids, bridges, etc ) 'the tent' will be a part of the field?
~Daler
Maybe the tent could be a new version of the tunnels on the field from breakaway?
Maybe the tent could be a new version of the tunnels on the field from breakaway?
Uh oh. For some reason, I don't like tunnels on the field. :P
~Daler
I have only been able to find this mention of the GDC trying to design future games for more than one season in advance.
I believe it may be more of a goal than a reality...
I cant remember the source, but I remember watching a video of Frank discussing how they called in a bunch of FIRST veterans to discuss ideas for the 2015 game pretty shortly after 2014 concluded. I don't think they operate that far in the future, but I do believe they got ahead one year, so now they have a "backup" on standby in case of crippling issues.
Regardless, I see no indication of massive changes to the game this year. Frank has been pretty forthright so far, even just straight up telling us that bumpers will be back (http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-frank-answers-friday-pool-noodles). Frank speaks pretty simply in this post telling us that they want to do it for promotional reasons, so I see no reason not to just trust him.
However, I sincerely hope they don't give away things such as game pieces in this trailer. Once you know the game piece, you can pretty effectively begin prototyping for manipulating it. Personally, I can't do a two-month-long "Week 1" starting in late October, so yeah, please be careful about it. With very little definitive info, the season pretty much starts early.
I bet that it's going to be some kind of football game, and they tie the 25th anniversary of FRC to Super Bowl 50.
My predicted game name: "Halftime!"
Which means another Black Eyed Peas concert sine they did a Superbowl halftime show.
Rangel(kf7fdb)
07-10-2015, 14:43
Doesn't ANYBODY remember the 2007 game hint? It showed a SCORED GAME PIECE.
And nobody got the hint fully right.
Think about that for a minute.
I think I sort of got this last year's right :rolleyes: (This was also before the leak)
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1416176&postcount=149
In all honesty though, I don't think anyone could get the significant details of the game right with just the hints. Well except maybe for 2007.
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