FRC Blog - Something New - Team 'Standards'

[P.J.]

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-something-new-team-standards

I didn't see a link to the newest forum post yet. Interesting concept. It seems that the medieval theme is going to carry over into gameplay.

(I'm not fancy and don't know how to quote the body of the blog post like Hallry does so I apologize)

[Justin Montois]

No game elements above the driver stations this year.

Not sure how I feel about the Standards. Definitely different.

[EDesbiens]

Just. Awesome.

I love the idea, the fact that every team's standard will be different, the fact that we can start it in the preseason, the fact that we get patches to add to our standard... It's just awesome...

[TDav540]

No game elements above the driver stations this year.

Not sure how I feel about the Standards. Definitely different.

Sounds like a pretty awesome idea! I'm definitely looking forward to it, but it does limit the opportunities for goals in a projectile shooting game

[Knufire]

No game elements above the driver stations this year.


This. Definitely not a shooting game (or at least a traditional one with goals above the driver station). If scoring is against the driver station wall, it seems like it'll be narrower (2012 esque).

[Cory]

Ah yes, the next step forward in making FRC more professional and attractive to television and outsiders.

[GeeTwo]

Great idea! I've posted a comment asking for two history patches, as they want two-sided flags. Also, if you want some history on this style of flag, don't look for a standard, look for a Gonfalon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonfalon).

[AdamHeard]

Ah yes, the next step forward in making FRC more professional and attractive to television and outsiders.

I'm baffled by this step sideways/backwards.

[James1902]

I'm baffled by this step sideways/backwards.

I'm not sure it's a step backwards. It adds visual representation of achievement or experience with the game, and I think it will add a cool look to the field. This could provide an understandable shorthand for people who haven't watched all season to appreciate the relative "power level" of the teams on the field.

College football does something similar by adding helmet stickers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmet_sticker) for players who reach certain achievements throughout their playing career.

I don't mind FIRST going all in on a theme as long as it helps people understand action on the field, as opposed to FLL style themes that have little to no effect during their matches.

I think this is a much better execution of a game theme than the teaser trailer.

[AdamHeard]

I'm not sure how it's a step backwards. It adds visual representation of achievement or experience with the game, and it keeps in the theme of the game. This could provide an understandable shorthand for people who haven't watched all season to appreciate the relative "power level" of the teams on the field.

College football does something similar by adding helmet stickers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmet_sticker) for players who reach certain achievements throughout their playing career.

I don't mind FIRST going all in on a theme as long as it helps people understand action on the field, as opposed to FLL style themes that have little to no affect during their matches.

I think this is a much better execution of a game theme than the teaser trailer.

I can't see how such themes help get normal people involved.

[Abhishek R]

Obviously if it's a bunch of streamers just floating above driver stations it will appear childish or like some kind of medieval castle. But this is an opportunity for teams to show off their branding. Imagine if instead of "standards" FIRST said "teams can now choose to display their logo over their driver station for recognizability for the crowd/audience."

[James1902]

I can't see how such themes help get normal people involved.

Fair. But I don't think it'll drive anyone away, and at least this may have a bit of utility for the non-FIRST observer.

[PayneTrain]

I like the idea of teams being able to display their brand in a static, standardized method like something you see at center ice or in an endzone.

The streamers, loose controls over design, STREAMERS... uhh... Not really a win for those who see FRC as something that should have a professional look, but a definite victory for those who think FRC is supposed to be FLL for high schoolers.

[Jay O'Donnell]

For those of you talking about how this will detract from the "professional look", strive to make your standard look professional and help other teams do the same. No need to talk down about FIRST trying something new that doesn't impact competitions in a serious way. I'm excited that non-STEM interested students will have more things to do and stay involved with an FRC team (disclaimer: my girlfriend does the art stuff for my old team).

[Andrew Schreiber]

Are you kidding me? FRC has many problems but "not enough chances for teams to express themselves" is not one of them.

Can we maybe address the abysmal/decentralized webcasts, lack of recorded footage, high cost of participation, lack of quality control at events, abusive volunteers... ?

Nah, but we got banners yo.

[Michael Hill]

Ah yes, the next step forward in making FRC more professional and attractive to television and outsiders.

I think this is similar to stickers on college football helmets. If done right, it doesn't have to look dumb.

[Knufire]

I think this is similar to stickers on college football helmets. If done right, it doesn't have to look dumb.

But will most teams do it right?

[James1902]

Can we maybe address the abysmal/decentralized webcasts, lack of recorded footage, high cost of participation, lack of quality control at events, abusive volunteers... ?

I would wager that giving teams the option to add a banner above their driver station has absolutely no effect on FIRST's ability or willingness to address those issues.

I would like to see those problems fixed as well, but it doesn't mean that FIRST should do absolutely nothing until they are addressed to our satisfaction. This would be akin to saying the Red Cross shouldn't run fundraising efforts to combat malaria until the bubonic plague is completely eradicated.

[PayneTrain]

But will most teams do it right?

I don't think this will be executed with the same successful uniformity of bumpers of that's what you're saying ;)

[Andrew Schreiber]

I would wager that giving teams the option to add a banner above their driver station has absolutely no effect on FIRST's ability or willingness to address those issues.

I would like to see those problems fixed as well, but it doesn't mean that FIRST should do absolutely nothing until they are addressed to our satisfaction. This would be akin to saying the Red Cross shouldn't run fundraising efforts to combat malaria until the bubonic plague is completely eradicated.

In place of the banners add a Go Pro tied to the FMS to start and stop it... There you go, recorded footage fixed except for these pesky banners.

I'm being facetious of course, but the point is that the thought and effort that went into this could easily have been used for something more useful. It's more akin to saying the Red Cross should stop throwing cocktail parties for poodles until the bubonic plague is eradicated.

[JB987]

Can't wait to bring our trumpet heralds to accompany our drive team from pit to que:D

[EricLeifermann]

Can't wait to bring our trumpet heralds to accompany our drive team from pit to que:D

While trumpeting you can also have your crier shout ROBOT!!!

[mwmac]

Can't wait to bring our trumpet heralds to accompany our drive team from pit to que:D

Don't forget to bring the coconut shells, I mean horses.:)

[James1902]

In place of the banners add a Go Pro tied to the FMS to start and stop it... There you go, recorded footage fixed except for these pesky banners.

I'm being facetious of course, but the point is that the thought and effort that went into this could easily have been used for something more useful. It's more akin to saying the Red Cross should stop throwing cocktail parties for poodles until the bubonic plague is eradicated.

I would totally donate money towards bubonic plague eradication if it meant I could attend a poodle cocktail party...

I think our main point of disagreement is the amount of thought or effort that FIRST put into this. I don't think it was a big enough brain drain to be detrimental to HQ's efforts to fix those problems.

[JohnSchneider]

I almost wish everyone had to submit their team logo and like 2 color choices and FIRST would make/print them so they all look uniform. I think that would be the correct way to do it and make it look professional.

most teams can't even make good looking bumpers....

[EDesbiens]

Don't forget to bring the coconut shells, I mean horses.:)

I see what you did there...;)

[Liz Smith]

In place of the banners add a Go Pro tied to the FMS to start and stop it... There you go, recorded footage fixed except for these pesky banners.

I'm being facetious of course, but the point is that the thought and effort that went into this could easily have been used for something more useful. It's more akin to saying the Red Cross should stop throwing cocktail parties for poodles until the bubonic plague is eradicated.

Just because they introduce one thing that new doesn't mean they aren't working on continually improving the program in other ways as well. As shown in bottom part of this blog post, webcasts, for one, are on the agenda for improvement:
http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-BEHIND-THE-SCENES-AT-IRI
I think us here in Indiana like the pilot program trial for webcasts we did last year and are hoping something similar continues in the future. If not centralized by FIRST we will work as a district to provide a similar setup at our events.

But, more on the actual topic... My team is very excited to create a team standard and love the idea of acquiring patches and streamers throughout the year. Learning about this now helps us get even more enthusiastic about this year's game theme.

[Mark Sheridan]

In place of the banners add a Go Pro tied to the FMS to start and stop it... There you go, recorded footage fixed except for these pesky banners.

But what about the 125 potato?


In all seriousness, having a camera there would be good. That got me thinking that these standards are going to block the view of the field in stadiums.

[Jay O'Donnell]

In all seriousness, having a camera there would be good. That got me thinking that these standards are going to block the view of the field in stadiums.

No more than some field elements have in the past (2013,2011,2006,etc.). Also check out the sizes, they aren't that big.

[Steven Donow]

But what about the 125 potato?


RIP


But in all seriousness, while the intent is cool, I'm becoming more and more hesitant about this medieval theme. FIRST seems to be going too strong with it, and the season hasn't even started yet.

[Ty Tremblay]

But in all seriousness, while the intent is cool, I'm becoming more and more hesitant about this medieval theme. FIRST seems to be going too strong with it, and the season hasn't even started yet.

All this complaining about the theme is pointless.

Kickoff will still come, robots will still be built, matches will still be played, a few champions will still be crowned, and a bunch of students will still get inspired.

All this will happen with a medieval theme this year. Get over it.

[Jon K.]

RIP


But in all seriousness, while the intent is cool, I'm becoming more and more hesitant about this medieval theme. FIRST seems to be going too strong with it, and the season hasn't even started yet.

While FIRST may be going strong with the theme this early on, I fail to see how that is a bad thing? They are providing teams more of an opportunity to embrace it, and instead it seems like most people are just bashing them for trying something new. If it doesn't work out well, then they can always change it for next year. Engineering is all about continuous improvement, and FIRST is trying to improve the overall feel of the events in this manner. I would like to point out how many teams fully embraced the "cheesecake" last year. Especially 125 who made a customer cheesecake "standard" and paraded it all around the events last year. To the point where they even had Frank Merrick sign it.

Instead of bashing everything they are doing, try to figure out how you can work with it. They have given teams the opportunity to make something fun and themed this year before the start of the season. Many teams should have more than adequate time to create something unique and interesting that represents them in a new way.

I mean, think of all the flags as well. There is no standard for flags, and some teams have something fun and small, others make flags that no MC wants to touch because they weigh 40 lbs. No one is saying ban the flags. It is part of what makes FRC, FRC. It has become part of the culture.

Yes, I agree that maybe a medieval theme may not play well to the general public, but think about how much money a company like Medieval Times makes every year. I for one think that the theme this year will help make a more cohesive event look and feel, even if it may not be the most broadly appealing.

[Hallry]

All this complaining about the theme is pointless.

Kickoff will still come, robots will still be built, matches will still be played, a few champions will still be crowned, and a bunch of students will still get inspired.

All this will happen with a medieval theme this year. Get over it.

To echo this, we are almost done surviving a theme about recycling. And even so, students were still inspired (https://vimeo.com/139506546).

I don't know about you, but I'd take a theme involving knights and castles over one involving litter and garbage cans any day.

[JB987]

To echo this, we are almost done surviving a theme about recycling. And even so, students were still inspired (https://vimeo.com/139506546).

I don't know about you, but I'd take a theme involving knights and castles over one involving litter and garbage cans any day.

+1. Could be fun and funny at the same time;)

[Richard Wallace]

I don't know about you, but I'd take a theme involving knights and castles over one involving litter and garbage cans any day.+2

[s_forbes]

I like the idea of having team flags showing over the field during the match. I'm going to predict that some will look like this though:

http://i.imgur.com/23PD9cn.jpg

[Lil' Lavery]

I think many of the people complaining about the appeal to "normal people" have a pretty cynical view of "normal people."

[EricH]

I mean, think of all the flags as well. There is no standard for flags, and some teams have something fun and small, others make flags that no MC wants to touch because they weigh 40 lbs. No one is saying ban the flags. It is part of what makes FRC, FRC. It has become part of the culture.

Just as a thought, flags can be "interesting" to use as display items at a demo. But these "standards" should be--at least ideally--pretty well self-displaying if you can keep them upright. Great for pit marking... announcing who you are... using as a flag for the MC next year...

I'm a little skeptical, but given that it's OPTIONAL (that's for anybody who didn't catch that in the blog post), I'm willing to wait and see.


By the way, that little thing about it being optional: If you don't like it, don't do it. I think FIRST is smart enough to figure out that a lot of empty standard holders means people don't like the idea. And, I would guess further that that would mean that they put this in with "floppies", 1v1v1, and the Coopertition Award as "ideas to NOT recycle".

[GaryVoshol]

Does this mean that Arts is sneaking into STEM, making STEAM?

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Week 1... I can see it now!
http://i.giphy.com/lVKeVXpbKEtaw.gif

[Munchskull]

In terms of standards I think that they are a great idea. Some may be complaining about themes, effort, and being professional. I say why can't the game have a fun theme and still be professional? People can be whimsical and professional, look at google, the multi billion dollar tech corporation. What do you see when you enter their HQ? A giant slide. Besides a lot of engineers that I know are still kids at heart.

This is a competition for high schoolers. For all the time we spend having to go to school, and be serious, we still love to have fun. We embrace themes. If FIRST's goal was to always be professional then why is there dancing and music at the competitions?

[Mark Sheridan]

No more than some field elements have in the past (2013,2011,2006,etc.). Also check out the sizes, they aren't that big.

yes those are are all examples blocking viewing angles. Yes the banners will block views and I am not stating anything beyond that. The implication of this will be pure speculation until we know the game. It may be entirely irrelevant and the views that are blocked are not particularly appealing.

The real question is: will your standard be a pirate flag?

[Jay O'Donnell]

yes those are are all examples blocking viewing angles. Yes the banners will block views and I am not stating anything beyond that. The implication of this will be pure speculation until we know the game. It may be entirely irrelevant and the views that are blocked are not particularly appealing.

The real question is: will your standard be a pirate flag?

Of course it will! If I was still on 1058...I'm sure they'll make a nice looking pirate themed standard.

[sanddrag]

Am I the only one thinking about how many pieces of electronics you could pack into this thing? Without any limits, I could envision some neat applications, some of which possibly could be used to enhance the robot's on-field performance. I think smarter teams are going to find a way to utilize this "extra thing you can put on the field" to their strategic advantage in the game.

That said, I was thrilled at the removal of bumpers last year. I'm not thrilled at yet another thing to have to build, transport, and store in our put area. Furthermore, of course this is going to turn I to another competition of who can make the "most bling" standard. While it is optional, if everyone has one and you don't, well...

Many teams cannot even make their robot look decent and meet compliance with rules like displaying the team number. This "standard" just seems like another distraction that is going to take time away from what really matters.

While I may not be all for it, I'm not entirely against it, yet. I'm willing to see how this pans out. I kind of want to CNC machine a one piece one from a solid slab of aluminum.

I'm just hoping FRC doesn't start becoming a competition of poster board, glitter, and glue.

Also, should I get a jump on things and start the thread named "Petition to end the pit area parades led by standard-wielding students?" My crystal ball tells me this is going to be a thing. I also predict at least one person is going to get hit by one of these things while traversing the pit area. If that one person happens to be me, consider it two people who will be hit by one. :D

[XaulZan11]

Am I the only one thinking about how many pieces of electronics you could pack into this thing? Without any limits, I could envision some neat applications, some of which possibly could be used to enhance the robot's on-field performance. I think smarter teams are going to find a way to utilize this "extra thing you can put on the field" to their strategic advantage in the game.


This was one of my first thoughts as well (after thinking about costumes for drive teams, refs, field reset...). At least those complaining about them have another avenue attempt to gain a competitive advantage.

[James1902]

Am I the only one thinking about how many pieces of electronics you could pack into this thing? Without any limits, I could envision some neat applications, some of which possibly could be used to enhance the robot's on-field performance. I think smarter teams are going to find a way to utilize this "extra thing you can put on the field" to their strategic advantage in the game.



From the Full Team Standards specs (http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/Team%20Standard%20Specifications%20public.pdf) document linked at the bottom of the blog: "Standards may not be designed such that they blind or distract field
crew, opponent drivers, or audience members. During a match, the Standard must be fixed, physically and visually
(i.e. no strobing, flashing, etc.)."

[GeeTwo]

While trumpeting you can also have your crier shout ROBOT!!!

Or to be more temporally correct:
Oyez! Oyez! Oyez!
Robot!

(In case anyone hasn't figured it out by now, I was a member of the SCA (Scociety for Creative Anachronism) for a year or two about three decades ago; I'm loving this theme.)

Oh, and what about a bonus for teams which can properly describe their banners in heraldic language?

Gules, a tiger rampant, surmounting a sprocket of nine teeth argent..

[pwnageNick]

This was one of my first thoughts as well (after thinking about costumes for drive teams, refs, field reset...). At least those complaining about them have another avenue attempt to gain a competitive advantage.

I'd be amazed if they don't ban this. I imagine they'll have an update that it can only be purely decorative.

I think giving teams a better opportunity to brand themselves in the area of the field your average spectator would look for your team is great. However, the odds that many teams don't make very quality/professional looking ones will give it somewhat of a school project kind of feel. Add the theme part of it being like a medieval banner and it could turn prospective high school students interested in the program away.

As far as those saying if you don't like it, don't do it; that just doesn't make sense. Good teams aren't going to want to miss out on branding their team and standing out for having a better looking more professional banner.

I think a better idea especially in years to come would be to have a sign area that can be at the top of your drive station glass that can have your name and logo, similar looking to an end zone in football, etc. Simpler, and it could even be a standardized template that FIRST so that the quality of them from team to team doesn't differ much.

[EricH]

This was one of my first thoughts as well (after thinking about costumes for drive teams, refs, field reset...). At least those complaining about them have another avenue attempt to gain a competitive advantage.

I would be a little bit careful with electronics, etc. There are requirements, and the field staff are allowed to enforce them. Here are some of the relevant ones:

-- <3lb total weight (and that includes the supports).
-- <3" thick (not a big deal, for most electronics).
-- Flexible material (the banner portion, that is)--wires flex, though.
-- And the big one: during matches, it must be fixed physically and visually. (There's also the standard "no distracting opponents" language, but that's kind of a side thing.) What I would take that to mean would be that if there was a flashing light, or a color changing light, particularly if it was distracting, the field staff would have a friendly chat after the match. (Though there's nothing about BETWEEN matches, displaying while not in a match, and any time not in a match. Important note.)


That being said, if you can do electronics within the requirements (er, "standard standards" :p ), why not?

[John Retkowski]

Personally, my mind filled with negative thoughts when I started reading the blogs post, but at the mention of badges and other symbols given at competitions, I'm optimistic.


As for the theme...

All this complaining about the theme is pointless.

Kickoff will still come, robots will still be built, matches will still be played, a few champions will still be crowned, and a bunch of students will still get inspired.

All this will happen with a medieval theme this year. Get over it.

To echo this, we are almost done surviving a theme about recycling. And even so, students were still inspired (https://vimeo.com/139506546).

I don't know about you, but I'd take a theme involving knights and castles over one involving litter and garbage cans any day.


Why don't we just make the theme of a robotics competition





...a robotics competition?

[GeeTwo]

Did I mention that I'm loving this theme?

[EDesbiens]

Did I mention that I'm loving this theme?

No you didn't :yikes:

I think we need to look at this in another way... We should talk about the fact that this will straighten teams branding and that it will help anyone watching the matches to figure out which team is which (A lot of people don't know the team numbers at a competition... It can help to see a logo above the team number and to be able to match it with a robot...).

[RyanCahoon]

Am I the only one thinking about how many pieces of electronics you could pack into this thing? Without any limits, I could envision some neat applications, some of which possibly could be used to enhance the robot's on-field performance. I think smarter teams are going to find a way to utilize this "extra thing you can put on the field" to their strategic advantage in the game.

That was my first thought. A couple people pointed out last year that it was technically legal for the operator interface to extend above the driver station glass, and there were a few scattered discussion about mounting a camera up there for increased visibility.

Alternately, while they can't have retroreflective tape, there's many ways these could be used for vision targets. This could be a feasible way to make a full-field positioning system like [faust1706] and other have been talking about for a couple of years now. Make two banners and give them to your alliance partners in stations 1 and 3, then mount a camera on top of your robot. Unless we have another stacking game or some serious field element clutter, pretty good visibility could be maintained.

[Sperkowsky]

Id say there is a 80% chance they are going to say it has to be decorative. There is always a gray area with this sort of stuff no matter what regulations FIRST sets forth.

[EDesbiens]

That was my first thought. A couple people pointed out last year that it was technically legal for the operator interface to extend above the driver station glass, and there were a few scattered discussion about mounting a camera up there for increased visibility.

Alternately, while they can't have retroreflective tape, there's many ways these could be used for vision targets. This could be a feasible way to make a full-field positioning system like [faust1706] and other have been talking about for a couple of years now. Make two banners and give them to your alliance partners in stations 1 and 3, then mount a camera on top of your robot. Unless we have another stacking game or some serious field element clutter, pretty good visibility could be maintained.

Very true... But, about the electronics part, correct me if I'm wrong but, there is a specific "box" that contains the standard... It can get bigger than that... If you add electronics, you won't be allowed to wire it to your driver station...

[EricH]

Very true... But, about the electronics part, correct me if I'm wrong but, there is a specific "box" that contains the standard... It can'tget bigger than that... If you add electronics, you won't be allowed to wire it to your driver station...

Consider yourself corrected...;)

I'd be inclined to agree: no bigger than allowed--that means some batteries in there to power everything, and batteries aren't the lightest things in the world as a general rule.


Though I do agree on the use of standards as vision targets. As currently written, there is nothing that would prohibit that (though Ryan's suggestion of giving partners standards is probably going to be pushing it; after last year's cheesecake epidemic, I would expect a mild rules/interpretations tightening). I wouldn't be surprised to see some teams with several variations of standards...

[EDesbiens]

Consider yourself corrected...;)

I shal naver b corectedd :)

I think that they'll soon add a rule saying : "You can only use a standard representing your team"...

[Refresh]

No game elements above the driver stations this year.

Or, maybe the standards are part of the game element, we now have our flags for capture the flag?

[EDesbiens]

Or, maybe the standards are part of the game element, we now have our flags for capture the flag?

It is clearly written in the official post that the flags are not part of the game in any way...

[Whippet]

Or, maybe the standards are part of the game element, we now have our flags for capture the flag?

The Team Standard is completely optional. There is no element of FIRST STRONGHOLD you won’t be able to play if you don’t create a standard. There will simply be an empty spot over your player station during your matches where your standard would have been displayed.

Probably not. Capture the Flag isn't all that fun when there aren't any flags. :D

Edit: Ninja'd...

[Refresh]

It is clearly written in the official post that the flags are not part of the game in any way...

eh darn sightreading. Thanks for straightening that out. ah well.

[Billfred]

(In case anyone hasn't figured it out by now, I was a member of the SCA (Scociety for Creative Anachronism) for a year or two about three decades ago; I'm loving this theme.)

I mentioned this to an active SCA member tonight over dinner. I had to actively stop her from jumping on making one for 4901 until I could at least offer the gig to one of our kids!

------------------------

Like a lot of people, I have my list of concerns about the direction FIRST is headed in locally and program-wide. It's still ridiculously expensive to start and maintain a team, South Carolina's one of the three remaining non-district states on the east coast (making a standard two-event season even more expensive), the Game Design Committee is on a one-game losing streak (and the one before wasn't a big win), and I'm still looking for my first person that heard about Championsplit and says "Billfred, that's a great idea!".

But y'know, this could be fun. And it's not like the LED team number signs are that easy to spot either. I say we let this one play out and see.

[mrnoble]

Since our team's annual theming is a BIG DEAL for us, and since we decided our theme for the coming year more than six months ago, we will carry on and make a standard that matches our theme, and we will ignore the medieval stuff. It's strange to me that FRC has taken to themes that would be more appropriate (to my mind) for elementary school events, but whatever. It's not going to hurt anything, I think.

[EDesbiens]

But y'know, this could be fun. And it's not like the LED team number signs are that easy to spot either. I say we let this one play out and see.

Thank you, exactly the way I wanted to say it! :)

[thinker&planner]

I really like the idea of having an easy to see how well a team has done this season.

(pre-apologies->small off-topic rant)
But our team is only planning to go to one event (and Champs if we win the regional). I wish that we went to more than one event, but it is so expensive. Our lead mentor thinks that the extra ~10k that we spend on attending a regional can be used more efficiently to educate students about STEM. I agree with this to a certain extent, but a part of me can't resist the adrenaline rush and other amazing feelings and inspirations that come with attending an event.
What is the mentality of other teams regarding this issue? (This thread is probably not the best place, sorry.)

What about patches for accomplishments in previous seasons? Even just a simple "FRC 2014" to show that you competed that year?

[Knufire]

I wish that we went to more than one event, but it is so expensive. Our lead mentor thinks that the extra ~10k that we spend on attending a regional can be used more efficiently to educate students about STEM. I agree with this to a certain extent, but a part of me can't resist the adrenaline rush and other amazing feelings and inspirations that come with attending an event.
What is the mentality of other teams regarding this issue? (This thread is probably not the best place, sorry.)

FRC is the flagship program, not the bang/buck program. If you're looking to maximize what you get for your money, you probably want to go FTC.

[safiq10]

I'm hesitant on the idea on banners, while I understand they will be a fun addition to the field. You gotta wonder, "what's next?" Hopefully the GDC will drop a good game this year!

[EricH]

FRC is the flagship program...

Well, that explains this whole idea right there. Standards are a form of flag... And they way they'll be arranged will look sort of like a 3-masted ship...


[/rimshot]

[EDesbiens]

Well, that explains this whole idea right there. Standards are a form of flag... And they way they'll be arranged will look sort of like a 3-masted ship...


[/rimshot]

What are ships used to? Move on water... Water game confi... Wait, no, I just won't say that... Sorry...

[Whippet]

What are ships used to? Move on water... Water game confi... Wait, no, I just won't say that... Sorry...
I'll say it, then.

WATER GAME CONFIRMED!!

[EricH]

What are ships used to? Move on water... Water game confi... Wait, no, I just won't say that... Sorry...

And sometimes they just jump into the boat.


(Actually, I had the same thought, but left it out just to keep this from going that route.)

[EDesbiens]

And sometimes they just jump into the boat.


(Actually, I had the same thought, but left it out just to keep this from going that route.)

And sometimes they transform into restaurants, hotels, shops or even shipwrecks :yikes:

[bEdhEd]

Well, time to talk to my team tomorrow about this! I think the standards are a neat idea, especially if you've got a matching one hanging in the pit! I've already got some designs brewing in my head. Celtic/Norse knots definitely should be part of our design. Might upload a pic of a draft/sketch later when I have time.

[wilsonmw04]

Some of these post could very well be replaced with: "darned FIRST needs to stay off my lawn!"

To the point of streamers being "unprofessional," I guess you were never in the scouts where steamers are used to show the accomplishments of the unit.

They also use streamers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_streamer) in the military to show the deployment or honors of the unit. Is the US military unprofessional because they have steamers on a standard? hardly.

I think some folks need a nap before they post on forums.

[RyanCahoon]

Very true... But, about the electronics part, correct me if I'm wrong but, there is a specific "box" that contains the standard... It can get bigger than that... If you add electronics, you won't be allowed to wire it to your driver station...

Good point about the size limits. So put a connector at the lower edge of the Standard and have a cable come up from your operator interface. This is all contingent on the specifics of the operator interface rules this year, of course.

[bEdhEd]

Some of these post could very well be replaced with: "darned FIRST needs to stay off my lawn!"
...

I think some folks need a nap before they post on forums.

I agree some of these reactions seem a bit much. It's an optional piece. It's not required to do like bumpers. If the FRC community really didn't wan't the standards, they could do a "standard agreement," much like the "litter agreement" and not put them up during the matches.

That would not be enjoyable for any teams who worked hard on a standard though. At least they'd be able to stick it up in the pit or have a mascot hold it.

[Briansmithtown]

This is beyond pointless. The crowd won't really be looking at the flags, the opponents will be to busy driving, and this will just add more time to the field setup, which already is a bit too long. When I first got involved, FIRST was all about the future and interesting people into science and technology, but now it's just kinda stepping back. These flags will make it look like an animatronic Medeival times. Also kinda make it look a bit more, ugh should I say, nerdy. :mad: :mad:

[bEdhEd]

These flags will make it look like an animatronic Medeival times. Also kinda make it look a bit more, ugh should I say, nerdy. :mad: :mad:

Dinner and tournament, m'lady?

I can see the judges circled around the arena with a side of meat at hand. Maybe instead of blue shirts they'll wear blue paper crowns.

http://thespohrsaremultiplying.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/cle61.gif

The medieval stuff is a little nerdy, yes, but it beats last year's theme. It sparks the imagination a bit more, at least for me.

[Aren Siekmeier]

Anyone else wondering about the specifications? They don't say you have to build a particular support structure, but the size and material specs talk about vertical and horizontal supports as if they have a design in mind that they'd like us to stick to.

I'm not a huge fan, and I'm wary of loose fabric and streamers and the possibility of interfering with action on the field. Hoping to keep this a professional, clean presentation of our team's image, and not something distracting, over the top, and hard on the eyes. Also, there are many ways to build the support structure, and wise teams will play with that degree of freedom and others to see what can be done with a standard other than just repping the team with a fabric flag. At the very least I'd see if we can tie down the bottom...

[MooreteP]

At some arenas, this will block the view of spectators as much as, if not more than, the Aerial Assist or Ultimate Ascent goals did.

How will they be supported? What if they fall onto the field? Will they affect Field Reset times? We're gonna need a bigger....ladder.

Ah yes, the next step forward in making FRC more professional and attractive to television and outsiders.
All marketers end up in Hell. Outsiders (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outsiders_(film)) We have a few of these on our teams.

I can't see how such themes help get normal people involved.
Why be normal? But I get your point. There is theater in FIRST, but the casual spectator may want to just "watch the game".

For those of you talking about how this will detract from the "professional look", strive to make your standard look professional and help other teams do the same. No need to talk down about FIRST trying something new that doesn't impact competitions in a serious way. I'm excited that non-STEM interested students will have more things to do and stay involved with an FRC team (disclaimer: my girlfriend does the art stuff for my old team).
This^

Are you kidding me? FRC has many problems but "not enough chances for teams to express themselves" is not one of them.

Nah, but we got banners yo.
Interesting comment from 125, who have many banners, and often good spirit with overly bright LED's in the stands.

Can we maybe address the abysmal/decentralized webcasts, lack of recorded footage, high cost of participation, lack of quality control at events, abusive volunteers... ?
Another thread?

All this being said, I like this idea. It puts the A in STEM.

Now, if the endgame involved impaling a losing alliance's Robot with your "standard" for 50 points...... That would be an engineering challenge beyond a six-stack with a can & noodle.

[Koko Ed]

Some of these post could very well be replaced with: "darned FIRST needs to stay off my lawn!"

To the point of streamers being "unprofessional," I guess you were never in the scouts where steamers are used to show the accomplishments of the unit.

They also use streamers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_streamer) in the military to show the deployment or honors of the unit. Is the US military unprofessional because they have steamers on a standard? hardly.

I think some folks need a nap before they post on forums.
Many members of the CD community are a hardcore lot and more often than not if it doesn't have something to do with the robot or the competition it doesn't matter to them. Just because they don't agree with it doesn't mean the rest of the FIRST community doesn't.

[Dan Petrovic]

While trumpeting you can also have your crier shout ROBOT!!!

HEAR HEAR!! MAKE WAY FOR THE ROBOT OF 2826!!

[Andrew Schreiber]

Interesting comment from 125, who have many banners, and often good spirit with overly bright LED's in the stands.





So, since we've obviously had ample chances to express ourselves and celebrate our achievements prior to this, why do we need to add more?

Also, I'm pretty sure FIRST will frown if we attempt to put an egg plant up there... or a pineapple. Maybe less so a cheesecake but I think that might start to smell a little fresh by the end of the event. [1] I'm not anti fun/all serious business all the time. I'm just curious what the thought process behind "teams don't have enough ways to express themselves" was.



[1] these have all been 125 "flags" in the last year. Also on this list was a water bottle that the students made into a strange mouse looking thing, sometimes I question where they even GET these objects. Strangest moment I've had in FRC was walking into the pit to see a student drilling a hole in a pineapple.

[marshall]

Some of these post could very well be replaced with: "darned FIRST needs to stay off my lawn!"

Yeah... that's CD in a nutshell. Evidence (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1499868&postcount=87) here (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1500966&postcount=119).

I would say "this place used to be friendly" but that's too much irony for me! Not to mention it's untrue. CD has always been a place for 'distinguished but elderly scientists' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws).

I'm not a huge fan of the standards and I want to know if I can put a camera on ours for a multitude of reasons BUT by all means, if it helps me get at least one more student hyped up for build season then I guess FIRST HQ can drag out the mission accomplished banner*.

*This year the mission accomplished banner is actually a mission accomplished plaque.

[Rick]

After looking over the specs, for our team, I see this as an additional way to recognize our sponsors.

My initial thought was to make the standard out of a vinyl banner instead of fabric or felt. More durable, full color, and professional.

For everyone dreaming of going way over the top on this, remember the cumulative weight has to be 3 lbs. or less.

[Jay O'Donnell]

My initial thought was to make the standard out of a vinyl banner instead of fabric or felt. More durable, full color, and professional.


Definitely agree on the vinyl. We've been putting it on corrugated plastic and polycarb for years. Comes out great.

[AdamHeard]

Some of these post could very well be replaced with: "darned FIRST needs to stay off my lawn!"

To the point of streamers being "unprofessional," I guess you were never in the scouts where steamers are used to show the accomplishments of the unit.

They also use streamers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_streamer) in the military to show the deployment or honors of the unit. Is the US military unprofessional because they have steamers on a standard? hardly.

I think some folks need a nap before they post on forums.

Just finished my nap.

Yes get off my lawn, and get the overly nerdy things of FIRST's lawn so that we can make it a more inviting environment for the general public.

Let's face it, the average high school student doesn't want to join a nerd club. If we focus more on a clean sports like competitive environment, we can attract more mainstream people and achieve the culture change FIRST is striving for.

[Lil' Lavery]

If only more people were able to look past the medieval/fantasy themes and enjoy Game of Thrones. Perhaps then it would be recognized. It's a pity it's shoved into the corner as "too nerdy" for mainstream culture, however. :( :(

obvious sarcasm

[wilsonmw04]

If only more people were able to look past the medieval/fantasy themes and enjoy Game of Thrones. Perhaps then it would be recognized. It's a pity it's shoved into the corner as "too nerdy" for mainstream culture, however. :( :(

obvious sarcasm

+1

[AdamHeard]

If only more people were able to look past the medieval/fantasy themes and enjoy Game of Thrones. Perhaps then it would be recognized. It's a pity it's shoved into the corner as "too nerdy" for mainstream culture, however. :( :(

obvious sarcasm

You don't see a difference between a show you watch (with far, far more production value than FIRST) and something you do?

Game of Thrones is cool, LARPing is not.

[wilsonmw04]

Game of Thrones is cool, LARPing is not.

NASCAR is cool, FIRST is not. How does that sound? Are you offended?

If you don't want to have the standard, don't make one.

[mwmac]

Standards, badges and streamers, oh my...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ChQK8j6so8

[marshall]

NASCAR is cool, FIRST is not. How does that sound? Are you offended?

If you don't want to have the standard, don't make one.

NASCAR is cool. There is a tremendous amount of engineering that goes into those cars. Guys with PHDs use supercomputers to run analysis of airflow over dents in the bodywork. For that matter, Formula 1 is cool too.

Actually, motorsport is a close approximation to what a mainstream FRC looks like. It's all about iterative design.

[wilsonmw04]

NASCAR is cool. There is a tremendous amount of engineering that goes into those cars. Guys with PHDs use supercomputers to run analysis of airflow over dents in the bodywork. For that matter, Formula 1 is cool too.

Actually, motorsport is a close approximation to what a mainstream FRC looks like. It's all about iterative design.

EXACTLY!! (I prefer INDYCAR but that's another conversation).

The point is this: Why are we trying to put down something that another group likes to do? Are we in some sort of nerd pecking order? How many years have we been fighting to make robots "cool?" (It's still nerdy/geeky and i'm ok with that.) If you don't like the theme, that's fine. Don't partake in it. This "fantasy" theme is very mainstream. Look at the pop culture this is centered around fantasy. Maybe, just maybe, they are trying to appeal to a different population that has not been interested in FIRST before?

[Jared Russell]

I could not care less what the theme of the game is. A popular sport, excavating moon rocks, medieval times, waste management, or no theme at all...it's all the same to me.

What I do care about is that the game and engineering challenge are exciting and inspiring to watch and for teams of all levels to participate in. This is almost entirely independent of the theme - you can give any game mechanic a cute name that fits a given motif ("moon rocks", "litter", etc.)

Given that FIRST wants to reach as broad an audience as possible, it seems to me a reasonable decision for them to add a theme on top of a well-designed game challenge in order to appeal to other types of people. I only have so much energy for complaining every year, so I'd much rather save mine for things that matter.

[EDesbiens]

I could not care less what the theme of the game is. A popular sport, excavating moon rocks, medieval times, waste management, or no theme at all...it's all the same to me.

What I do care about is that the game and engineering challenge are exciting and inspiring to watch and for teams of all levels to participate in. This is almost entirely independent of the theme - you can give any game mechanic a cute name that fits a given motif ("moon rocks", "litter", etc.)

Given that FIRST wants to reach as broad an audience as possible, it seems to me a reasonable decision for them to add a theme on top of a well-designed game challenge in order to appeal to other types of people. I only have so much energy for complaining every year, so I'd much rather save mine for things that matter.

Thank you! I love it!

[Jay O'Donnell]

EXACTLY!! (I prefer INDYCAR but that's another conversation).

The point is this: Why are we trying to put down something that another group likes to do? Are we in some sort of nerd pecking order? How many years have we been fighting to make robots "cool?" (It's still nerdy/geeky and i'm ok with that.) If you don't like the theme, that's fine. Don't partake in it. This "fantasy" theme is very mainstream. Look at the pop culture this is centered around fantasy. Maybe, just maybe, they are trying to appeal to a different population that has not been interested in FIRST before?

Agreed. FIRST had sports themed games in 2008, 2010, 2012, 2013, and even some of the other games were still "sport-like". There's nothing wrong with trying something new. Robots will still be built and played with, and a new group of people may be reached. If people weren't brought into FIRST by all of the sports games we've had recently, why would they now?

Also to people just complaining and being negative here, please go be negative elsewhere.

[AdamHeard]

Also to people just complaining and being negative here, please go be negative elsewhere.

That's very open minded of you.

Remember, we all want the same thing here; more inspiration and a wider reach for the program.

We just disagree with the methods.

[Madison]

FIRST has a history of game design that does a poor job of incentivizing teams to do things in the manner the GDC envisioned and so they often create arbitrary, difficult to enforce rules so a game plays out the way they'd like. Often, this happens when a heavy-handed 'theme' is overlaid atop a game or when special focus is paid to what spectators think.

Here's hoping that the game itself is a good game first and thematically consistent second.

[PayneTrain]

If only more people were able to look past the medieval/fantasy themes and enjoy Game of Thrones. Perhaps then it would be recognized. It's a pity it's shoved into the corner as "too nerdy" for mainstream culture, however. :( :(

obvious sarcasm

I hope that's an invitation to go full "Red Wedding" at an event.

[Kevin Sheridan]

I hope that's an invitation to go full "Red Wedding" at an event.

Trial by robot combat to settle penalty disputes would be nice (especially if 254 can name Bite Force as our champion)

[Jay O'Donnell]

That's very open minded of you.

Remember, we all want the same thing here; more inspiration and a wider reach for the program.

We just disagree with the methods.

Fair enough.

I don't see why we have to have sport themed games for it to be "cool". I brought some friends of mine to a competition this year who would be considered "jocks" or "cool kids" and they didn't care that it was recycling themed (which I would say is worse than medieval in terms of bringing people into FIRST). All they saw were the cool robots doing things and how much fun it was.

Not everyone likes sports, some people like other things such as fantasy. We've had plenty of opportunities to use sports themes to bring people in. And this Standard is just like recycling cans this year: symbolic of a theme that matters less than the robots itself.

I guess my main beef with your point is that you're making it seem like its an awful thing to be nerdy, when in reality there's nothing wrong with it. My friends found FIRST nerdy but still enjoyed seeing the robots and competitions and thought it was awesome.

[Mark Sheridan]

Trial by robot combat to settle penalty disputes would be nice (especially if 254 can name Bite Force as our champion)

There we go! We finally got battlebots for a FIRST competition.

[PayneTrain]

Trial by robot combat to settle penalty disputes would be nice (especially if 254 can name Bite Force as our champion)

I was thinking student w/ pike on the robot cart but that works.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Fair enough.

Not everyone likes sports, some people like other things such as fantasy. We've had plenty of opportunities to use sports themes to bring people in. And this Standard is just like recycling cans this year: symbolic of a theme that matters less than the robots itself.


I don't think this debate is sports vs non-sports. What I believe Adam and some of the others are trying to say is that a good robot game is more important than a theme. Ultimate Ascent wasn't sports themed, it used a Frisbee as a game object but there wasn't much of anything of Ultimate Frisbee involved, it was just a good robot game. Theme or not the most important aspects of robot games should be put at the top of the priority list. In my opinion watchable and strategically interesting games are more important then fleeting interest by pedestrians walking by (most people stop and look for a little while anyway, it's already cool robots). Often the themes takes away from that because if even a single thing about the game or balance is changed to make the theme better now you have made the game a little worse.

I like to look at most of the VEX games as good examples of robot games. Very few of them are themed in anyway but they allow for season long strategy and robot iterations (in most years).

[Anupam Goli]

I don't see why we have to have sport themed games for it to be "cool". I brought some friends of mine to a competition this year who would be considered "jocks" or "cool kids" and they didn't care that it was recycling themed (which I would say is worse than medieval in terms of bringing people into FIRST). All they saw were the cool robots doing things and how much fun it was.

Not everyone likes sports, some people like other things such as fantasy. We've had plenty of opportunities to use sports themes to bring people in. And this Standard is just like recycling cans this year: symbolic of a theme that matters less than the robots itself.
...

I agree, it doesn't have to be sport themed for it to be cool. I don't think there should be a theme for our games, just give us a good competitive game with defense. As Jared said, the most important part is having a competitive game on the field that is fun to play and spectator friendly. Watching robots stack crates will look kinda interesting at best, but watching robots fighting for game pieces and executing strategies, with some good crowd excitement may actually get people not under the tent to look more into it.

I think had FIRST announced the theme as part of the game at kickoff, this announcement would've been received better. It just feels like HQ is trying too hard to make it a "thing". I've seen ads on sites I visit for Stronghold, and if the first impression of FRC someone gets is a cartoon trailer and a medieval theme, they'll think it's just some ren fair re-enactment using robots or something. We have nerds under the tent. What we want are more engineers to want to mentor, and more of the other crowds of kids.

As far as the standard is concerned, it'll be great to have another display of our brand, logo, and sponsors. I could care less about badges and streamers and that nonsense. Our standard will probably just be a professional display that reflects our team. It's a neat idea, and would've been even cooler if they just told us "you can have a team display above your driver station now, here are the specs:", instead of integrating it with the theme.

[PayneTrain]

It's a neat idea, and would've been even cooler if they just told us "you can have a team display above your driver station now, here are the specs:", instead of integrating it with the theme.

That's my major logistical issue. Teams like to reuse things because we're not all made of money, and half of the money we're made of goes to registering for and attending the competitions. I see it as teams getting to mark off their "endzone" which sounds neat, but really broad and uneven rules and stretching to tie it into the theme is offputting and concerning. I'm not someone busting down doors screaming "THESE ARE THE END TIMES" but whatever.

Also, I don't remember there being a lot of groans over teams who won the 4 banner awards at an event being able to cut down the nets in 2012. Why? Great game with a neat theme that wasn't forced. We're projecting the 2015 experience onto the 2016 theme. It's not entirely unfair, but it's a conclusion drawn from incomplete facts.

[Brandon Holley]

I like the idea of having team flags showing over the field during the match. I'm going to predict that some will look like this though:

http://i.imgur.com/23PD9cn.jpg

I can't quite put my finger on it...but there is something about your standard that I am REALLY liking.

Brando

[Ryan Dognaux]

Also kinda make it look a bit more, ugh should I say, nerdy. :mad: :mad:

Sorry to burst your bubble... but FIRST is kind of nerdy. Competitive robotics is kind of nerdy. What's wrong with being nerdy? I'd argue that being nerdy is cooler than it used to be too and I'd like to think we're changing the connotation of that word.

I know some students on our team will be pumped to spend a few hours on this. I don't see anything wrong with it, it's really no different than a game-themed team flag that gets posted before a match. Plus you get 2 months to spend an hour or two making it. Not that big of a deal.

[PayneTrain]

Sorry to burst your bubble... but FIRST is kind of nerdy. Competitive robotics is nerdy. What's wrong with being nerdy?

I know some students on our team will be pumped to spend a few hours on this. I don't see anything wrong with it, it's really no different than a game-themed team flag that gets posted before a match. Plus you get 2 months to spend an hour or two making it. Not that big of a deal.

FRC, to me, is the flagship program for competitive robotics/STEM education. The sport should lead people to get involved with all CR/STEM Ed programs; especially who would not be involved in or have any knowledge of this realm or its affects on their lives. I would imagine and hope FIRST thinks this as well.

However, there are many schools of thought on how to operate FRC to achieve this. FIRST thinks shotgunning rookie grants, diluting championships, and layering on frills is the answer. Some people think embracing nerdiness is the answer. I think those people live in a bubble. :/

[Michael Corsetto]

However, there are many schools of thought on how to operate FRC to achieve this. FIRST thinks shotgunning rookie grants, diluting championships, and layering on frills is the answer. Some people think embracing nerdiness is the answer. I think those people live in a bubble. :/

#feelthepayne

[Thad House]

However, there are many schools of thought on how to operate FRC to achieve this. FIRST thinks shotgunning rookie grants, diluting championships, and layering on frills is the answer. Some people think embracing nerdiness is the answer. I think those people live in a bubble. :/

And some day that bubble is going to get popped, which is gonna be...interesting...

[Lil' Lavery]

If we're spinning empty rhetoric, what evidence is there that "bubble" doesn't exist around those who feel that FRC isn't "cool" enough?

"Geeky" and "nerdy" are trendier than ever. Video games have become a part of mainstream culture. The upcoming Star Wars film directed by JJ Abrams is likely going to be the biggest blockbuster in movie history. Comic Con is now a huge mainstream event, and comic book movies top the box office charts. Star Trek and the X Files are returning to TV. Mediocre reviewed Hobbit films grossed over $3B worldwide. You see members of the audience at NFL games in what can only be described as cosplay (http://www.geekologie.com/2008/10/16/saints-chief.jpg). Neil deGrasse Tyson is a internet demigod. "I F***ing Love Science" is a massive social media presence. It's time to capture the zeitgeist of pop culture geekiness and convert it into honest-to-goodness appreciation for STEM. There are still plenty of "geeks" and "nerds" who appreciate the pop culture and video games, but don't know what goes into them. It's time to take the fans of science fiction and fantasy and make them fans of science. "Normal people" are far more open to the nerdy aspects of culture than you expect.

Do I love "theme games?" No. I don't. But the ridiculous vitriol expressed towards every decision FIRST has without any consideration of the possibility is tiring. There's no reason to think that a theme game will be any worse than a "non-themed" game. We've done sports games and "non-themed" games for decades, I'm open to the possibility of trying something else. I'm open to the possibility that maybe Disney and FIRST HQ might know something about game design and public appeal that I don't. I'm fine that my personal vision of FIRST is not 100% congruent with FIRST HQ's. That doesn't mean I'm "in a bubble."

Cut out the ridiculous vitriol. It's tiresome. Be productive.

[MoistRobot]

Game of Thrones is cool, LARPing is not.

Heresy! Burrrn him!

[Ryan Dognaux]

However, there are many schools of thought on how to operate FRC to achieve this. FIRST thinks shotgunning rookie grants, diluting championships, and layering on frills is the answer. Some people think embracing nerdiness is the answer. I think those people live in a bubble. :/

I guess I fail to see how an optional flag is going to change the overall view of FIRST or turn people off to competitive robotics. I don't think this 'optional frill' is on the same level as your other two examples.

Everyone overreacts to this because they don't have a robot to build. If it were January there'd be a handful of posts on this thread. Build season can't come soon enough.

[jman4747]

I think it's a decent idea. I don't think the standards have some huge negative or positive effect on the competition other than aesthetically matching the "theme" witch is good.

The theme itself doesn't strike me as invasive really. It's more like adding a paint job to a car than changing out engine components. To me it really doesn't feel much different than just naming a game. Like how Aerial Assist has "aerial" referencing launching balls and "assist" referencing the assist/passing system.

2015: "recycle" = cans/litter
2013: "assent" = climbing pyramid
2012: "rebound" = basket ball hoops/ball
2011: "logo" = FIRST logo parts
2016: "stronghold" = something about game play just as it usually has

Thus I don't see how naming something and having a new cosmetic option for teams would detract from the game design. I'll bet any game could be framed to fit many different names and "themes" but ultimately the flow of the match, the difficulty level, and the spectators understanding are what will make it fun to watch or play. These things can be good or bad regardless of theme or name.

And to the cynics saying FIRST might compromise the game for the theme, what if they made a good game and found a theme to fit it instead of the other way around?

[marshall]

I would like to see teams using retroreflective tape on the standards. This could theoretically enable teams to find known landmarks on the field for better autonomous.

Actually, it doesn't even need to be retroreflective really, just a color and shape you can identify at a distance. I'm seriously going to ask one of our students for a unique Zebracorn logo for this purpose.

EDIT: As pointed out below, the retroreflective tape idea is a no-go.

[bEdhEd]

I'm open to the possibility that maybe Disney and FIRST HQ might know something about game design and public appeal that I don't.

Considering that Disney comes in second to Comcast for the biggest media conglomerate (http://elitedaily.com/money/the-worlds-10-largest-media-conglomerates/), I'd have to lean on the idea that Disney knows what they are doing in terms of marketing and publicity. To be honest, when it comes to marketing and public appeal, how do you go wrong with Disney as a partner? Relative to FIRST, they're bigger and have been around longer and have a demographic that spans all ages, races, and financial and educational backgrounds.

Maybe Disney Imagineering is EXACTLY what we need to increase appeal.

[Christopher149]

I would like to see teams using retroreflective tape on the standards. This could theoretically enable teams to find known landmarks on the field for better autonomous.

Actually, it doesn't even need to be retroreflective really, just a color and shape you can identify at a distance. I'm seriously going to ask one of our students for a unique Zebracorn logo for this purpose.

From the spec sheet (http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/Team%20Standard%20Specifications%20public.pdf): "They may not include retroreflective tape..."

[marshall]

From the spec sheet (http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/Team%20Standard%20Specifications%20public.pdf): "They may not include retroreflective tape..."

Well there goes that idea...

[sciencenuetzel]

If it were January there'd be a handful of posts on this thread. Build season can't come soon enough.

+1

[XaulZan11]

I would like to see teams using retroreflective tape on the standards. This could theoretically enable teams to find known landmarks on the field for better autonomous.

Actually, it doesn't even need to be retroreflective really, just a color and shape you can identify at a distance. I'm seriously going to ask one of our students for a unique Zebracorn logo for this purpose.

EDIT: As pointed out below, the retroreflective tape idea is a no-go.

Couldn't you put the retroflective tape on the back (field facing side) of your driver station? I don't recall any size or height restrictions on the drive station.

[billbo911]

Personally, I have no issue with giving teams the option of making a Standard.
It will work well with this year's theme, but we may not see it in future games. It just doesn't make sense to mount Standards above the DS if that area of the field will be used for scoring.

We will make use of this opportunity to have a few students (read that "just 2 or 3") use this as an engineering exercise. We were give limitations, and goal objectives. So, we will use them to design our Standard.

Besides, has anyone given any thought to the possibility that this opportunity to build a Standard this year was the entire reason to have the "Teaser video" in the first place? I wouldn't put it past the GDC to head fake us like that.

[KeeganP]

Not sure if this has been brung up or not, but I found these two sentences from the blog post interesting. Emphasis mine:

The Team Standard is completely optional. There is no element of FIRST STRONGHOLD you won’t be able to play if you don’t create a standard. There will simply be an empty spot over your player station during your matches where your standard would have been displayed.

...

Further, the Team Standard is not an inspection item. Inspectors will not be measuring your Team Standard to make sure it meets requirements before you will be allowed to bring it to the field. However, you should be aware that as Team Standards will be hung over player stations, oversized or otherwise improperly constructed Standards do have the potential to interfere either with game play or with the ability of spectators to see the match. If a referee or other official believes a Team Standard does not meet requirements, it may be checked. If found to not meet requirements, it will be removed from the field.

Now, that first part is interesting. If there's nothing up there (scoring wise) already, how can there be an "empty spot" -- wouldn't the entire area be one large empty spot in that case? I see "empty" to mean that there is other stuff up there, and the standard fills a "gap" or sorts. Or does it?

Second paragraph, seems to indicate that the standard could interfere with gameplay if not the right size -- does this again point to scoring elements above the DS? Or Do they mean that if one is too tall, it could fall and hurt someone, etc.?

Just two sentences I had noticed that seemed unusual...

[jvriezen]

Not sure if this has been brung up or not, but I found these two sentences from the blog post interesting. ...

I was thinking the same thing just before I read your post. There will be less than 4' of horizontal space consumed by standards, that leaves about 23' for other stuff.

[Richard Wallace]

..., that leaves about 23' for other stuff.Parapets, towers, battlements --> features of a stronghold.

[robochick1319]

Not sure if this has been brung up or not, but I found these two sentences from the blog post interesting. Emphasis mine:



Now, that first part is interesting. If there's nothing up there (scoring wise) already, how can there be an "empty spot" -- wouldn't the entire area be one large empty spot in that case? I see "empty" to mean that there is other stuff up there, and the standard fills a "gap" or sorts. Or does it?

Second paragraph, seems to indicate that the standard could interfere with gameplay if not the right size -- does this again point to scoring elements above the DS? Or Do they mean that if one is too tall, it could fall and hurt someone, etc.?

Just two sentences I had noticed that seemed unusual...

I interpreted that to mean that it "improperly constructed" could interfere with the match if it falls on the field or has some material that proves distracting for robots/drive teams (i.e. strobing lights). A standard that is "oversized" could interfere with people trying to view the matches.

I doubt there will be any goals near these standards as it would take away from the cool aesthetic of seeing banners above driver's stations. We're probably looking at a ground level, non-shooting game for 2016.

[Sperkowsky]

Something known is its good to get kids hooked in robotics young so if a fun theme on top of a complex game is the way to do it I'm all for it.

[Kevin Leonard]

Well there goes that idea...

All I could think of is the retro-reflective frisbee that got taped to my shirt for the match with 20 and 900 in quals in 2014.

If any team was going to use the banners like that, it was going to be the Zebracorns.

[Jon K.]

All I could think of is the retro-reflective frisbee that got taped to my shirt for the match with 20 and 900 in quals in 2014.

If any team was going to use the banners like that, it was going to be the Zebracorns.

That was great! Except when you were standing next to me at Champs, where I was refereeing your division, and I kept thinking they were going to miss you and take me out instead...

[marshall]

All I could think of is the retro-reflective frisbee that got taped to my shirt for the match with 20 and 900 in quals in 2014.

If any team was going to use the banners like that, it was going to be the Zebracorns.

We've got other tricks (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KlYdCBdjEg) now. :) We're using RitR this weekend as an excuse to test some new stuff.

[notmattlythgoe]

We've got other tricks (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KlYdCBdjEg) now. :) We're using RitR this weekend as an excuse to test some new stuff.

Well now that you've said that I'm going to need to see it...

[the_42nd_parado]

I almost wish everyone had to submit their team logo and like 2 color choices and FIRST would make/print them so they all look uniform. I think that would be the correct way to do it and make it look professional.

most teams can't even make good looking bumpers....

However there are some teams, like mine that logo is owned by a company that is not willing to release it to us. In essence, it may work for most teams, but not all.

[marshall]

However there are some teams, like mine that logo is owned by a company that is not willing to release it to us. In essence, it may work for most teams, but not all.

Yeah, design standards can be strict sometimes...

[GeeTwo]

Yeah, design standards can be strict sometimes...
So standards design standards are not standardized?

[MrBasse]

While looking over the design requirements for the standards this year, a student raised a good question. The requirements specify that the horizontal supports must have a diameter no larger than 1/2 inch. They specify diameter and to me that means that it has to be round, but they also say that the designs will not be inspected. To the student this means he can do whatever he wants as long as the vertical support is 1/2 inch OD. He has a clever design, but will it cause a problem to not use two round horizontal supports? Thoughts?

I would bring up the spec sheet, but with the new website changing the way all the old links work, I have to dig some more to find exact language and I never thought I would need to print it as it was available online.

[Christopher149]

While looking over the design requirements for the standards this year, a student raised a good question. The requirements specify that the horizontal supports must have a diameter no larger than 1/2 inch. They specify diameter and to me that means that it has to be round, but they also say that the designs will not be inspected. To the student this means he can do whatever he wants as long as the vertical support is 1/2 inch OD. He has a clever design, but will it cause a problem to not use two round horizontal supports? Thoughts?

I would bring up the spec sheet, but with the new website changing the way all the old links work, I have to dig some more to find exact language and I never thought I would need to print it as it was available online.

Workaround link (http://www3.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-something-new-team-standards)

[MrBasse]

I guess the issue comes down to the fact that the language says what I said before. It specifies diameter so I read that as required to be round. But what harm would be caused by a square horizontal support?

[Lil' Lavery]

While diameter is most frequently associated with circles, it is not exclusive to circles.

[MrBasse]

While diameter is most frequently associated with circles, it is not exclusive to circles.

Never heard any application other than circle, this is straight out of my Drafting text:

A straight line going through the center of a circle connecting two points on the circumference.

What other applications have you used?

[Richard Wallace]

Diameter can be applied to shapes that are not round.

Here (http://www.amazon.com/How-Round-Your-Circle-Engineering/dp/0691149925/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1447865683&sr=8-1&keywords=how+round+is+your+circle) is an interesting read on the subject.

Diameter, more generally, is the shortest distance between two parallel lines that touch the figure being measured. For figures that are not round, diameter can vary with orientation; major diameter and minor diameter correspond the orientations that give the maximum and minimum measurements, respectively.

[MrBasse]

Diameter can be applied to shapes that are not round.

Here (http://www.amazon.com/How-Round-Your-Circle-Engineering/dp/0691149925/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1447865683&sr=8-1&keywords=how+round+is+your+circle) is an interesting read on the subject.

Diameter, more generally, is the shortest distance between two parallel lines that touch the figure being measured. For figures that are not round, diameter can vary with orientation; major diameter and minor diameter correspond the orientations that give the maximum and minimum measurements, respectively.

I've always taught major and minor diameter in reference to ellipses, but the diameter part comes from the construction method of the ellipse, not the end shape. I haven't heard the parallel lines definition before. I might need to read that book to learn some new tricks.

[Richard Wallace]

http://24carat.co.uk/images/1969fiftypencerev400.jpg

The UK 50p coin is a famous example of a constant diameter figure that is obviously not round. It fills the space between two parallel lines 27.3 mm apart regardless of orientation.

[igor@levymeiste]

The links are gone on the FIRST site, or at least I cannot find them. Does anyon have the original document?

Thanks

[Ben Wolsieffer]

The links are gone on the FIRST site, or at least I cannot find them. Does anyon have the original document?

Here (http://archive.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-Something-New-Team-Standards) is the blog post on the archive site.

[AllenGregoryIV]

The links are gone on the FIRST site, or at least I cannot find them. Does anyon have the original document?

Thanks

The old links work if you change www to archive

Blog Post:
http://archive.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-something-new-team-standards

Standard Document
http://archive.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/Team%20Standard%20Specifications%20public.pdf

[abigailthefox]

Medieval theme=capture the flag+battle bots?????

[oliverchuckle]

I guess the issue comes down to the fact that the language says what I said before. It specifies diameter so I read that as required to be round. But what harm would be caused by a square horizontal support?
The main problem with a square is that i believe that the component that you use to attach the flag rod to the top of the drivers' station is actually a round hole. Making a square might cause the rod not to fit :/

You could however find some way to narrow it down so it could fit the hole, but even then theres a chance it won't fit too well.

[Daria Wing]

Our team has already started on our standard. Really excited about it because we are Dragons!! I say that it's a great opportunity to have fun while also being creative and professional. If you're having trouble with it, look up medieval standards and just incorporate your team into a simple design. :)

[The Ginger]

lol

[The Ginger]

i love how you changed the snakes to dragons, that just made my day

[Robopromo]

If anyone is wanting to get a head-start or a template for their team standard, Robopromo is offering Team Standard Kits and Custom Cut Decals as a service this year. I'll put the link below:

http://www.robopromo.com/category_s/1831.htm

[GeeTwo]

i love how you changed the snakes to dragons, that just made my day

What's the deal? Dragons are just snakes with legs and wings.;)