View Full Version : FIRST vs. BB
E. The Kidd
09-07-2002, 00:23
Just to prove I have too much free time I had a thought:
"What if FIRST took on Battlebots on Junkyard wars?"
So I have a two questions for the CD members to think about:
1. If FIRST was to send a team of 4 people to the show who would it be?
2. What do you think they should play? (a FIRST game, Battle Bots match, etc.)
Just keep in mind both teams:
1. have to build a robot
2. both teams will be presented with a kit of parts
3. there is a weight limit of 300 lbs
4. teams may use anything they find in the yard (no limit on types of parts)
p.s. if anything is unclear just let me know and I'll update this post
well, it would have to wind uo being more of a BB type match, because you can take a motor and a lead pipe and make a basher, but you can't take those same two pieces and make a goal grabber. so, to keep things relatively simple, it would have to be like that.
inthe kit of parts, what kind of parts would they get? i assume they'd get controls, batteries, electrical wires, etc, but what else? would they have to rip motors out of cars and other things in the 'junkyard'?
all in all, if there ever was a thing like this, it would be very cool, and i would jump at the chance to do it :D
E. The Kidd
09-07-2002, 12:41
the type of kit would be the same as we get here in FIRST motors and all
I think one might be surprised how well a FIRST bot would do against a battle bot. Our team went to a robotics fair in our area where a battlebot team was present. They're robot was quite weak and flimsy and they admitted that our robot could beat theirs. We would just have to replace our T-bar with a spike or weapon of some sort. I think it would be most interesting if a team entered their FIRST bot and modify it to a be a battle-bot. If they did well, which they very well may, it would really show up the battle-bots community.
~Hubicki~
Originally posted by Hubicki
I think one might be surprised how well a FIRST bot would do against a battle bot. Our team went to a robotics fair in our area where a battlebot team was present. They're robot was quite weak and flimsy and they admitted that our robot could beat theirs. We would just have to replace our T-bar with a spike or weapon of some sort. I think it would be most interesting if a team entered their FIRST bot and modify it to a be a battle-bot. If they did well, which they very well may, it would really show up the battle-bots community.
~Hubicki~
I agree. What most people don't know is that the vast majority of battle bots never appear on TV; only the best of the best make it. Even without modification, I would bet many FIRST robots could do well in battle bots simply by pushing the opponent into the arena hazards. Wheels might need new treads for gripping metal instead of carpet, but overall I think it could do very well.
but you forget one small, slightly important detail...
battle bots (or at least the good ones) have defenses against the arena hazards. be it an inch thick metal plate on the bottom to protect from killsaws, or something to absorb the shock of the giant hammer, they are designed to take that force. a FIRST bot is not.
take my team's robot for example. everyone's probably seen it. two treads for slow power, and four wheels for fast with slightly less power. i'm sure if we went up against a battle bot, we'd be able to push them around with no problem. but, if we were to get pushed into say a killsaw, it's all over. treads, gone. wheels, pretty much gone. frame, nice big chunks taken out, a real pain to repair. so, despite the raw power, 810's robot is not, will not be, and never was, a battle bot. sure, with way too much time and effort we could convert it, but there's no point. it's easier to build one from scratch. it's not that a battle bot is hard to build, it's just a completely different thing from a FIRST bot.
is it just me or does my teams 2001 robot look like a good battlebot... get em on the ramp and flip em.... maybe not...
our 2002 robot could probably be pretty vicious... put some spikes on our accumulator and were looking at a good garbage compactor.
all in all i think the quality of the first bots are much better than battle bots... of course we have how many actual engineers and big corporations backing us... imagine if some big corporation had a robot built and entered it into battle bots... because of funding it would probably be quite good.
from what ive heard it sounds as though team 112 will be moving to battle bots but this is only rumor
Andrew Rudolph
12-07-2002, 00:06
yeah if a big corperation sponsored a battle but but they probably wont because battlebots isnt nearly as good as FIRST. But when machine shops with big money make robots you get robots like son of waichi which just dominated and walked too.
i think that if they were to do the whol junkyardwars deal with first/BB then they should have 2 tournaments just like junkyard wars within each community and the winners face off in a battle much like they do with the british vr. Americans on the actual show.
chris-
yes, FIRST robots tend to be more sophisticated in some ways, but battle bots always seem to look nicer (like cleaner and slightly more proffesional). now, we all have to remember, each robot is designed for a different purpose, so each will do one thing great, and pretty much suck at others. for instance, i've never seen a battle bot that could pick up soccer balls as well as RAGE, but i've never seen a FIRST bot that could tear a battle bot apart as well as some battle bots (i forget all their names). so, even if a FIRST bot has 1,000 engineers behind it, a battle bot with a crazy guy behind it still has a much better chance at winning. it's just the way they're designed.
Bryan Mancuso
13-07-2002, 00:32
I like the concept of having a Junkyard Wars style Competition between the two robotics groups, but with junkyard resources it is difficult to work with a weight restriction. We FIRSTers have an advantage with working with serious time constraints, and the Battlebots people have an advantage with seeing something and turning it into a weapon or other strategic device. But to work with junkyard resources it is near impossible to find enough aluminum to keep your frame under 300lbs...Plus all the extras made out of steel and what have you. All the Battlebots are all made out of stock like first robots and they are pushing 300lbs alone.
Pardon the cliche but that is my two cents.
-Mancuso
E. The Kidd
14-07-2002, 00:08
Originally posted by Bryan Mancuso
I like the concept of having a Junkyard Wars style Competition between the two robotics groups, but with junkyard resources it is difficult to work with a weight restriction. We FIRSTers have an advantage with working with serious time constraints, and the Battlebots people have an advantage with seeing something and turning it into a weapon or other strategic device. But to work with junkyard resources it is near impossible to find enough aluminum to keep your frame under 300lbs...Plus all the extras made out of steel and what have you. All the Battlebots are all made out of stock like first robots and they are pushing 300lbs alone.
Pardon the cliche but that is my two cents.
-Mancuso
the only reason why i said 300 lbs is because most super heavyweights in BB aren't much more than 300 lbs
BSMFIRST
14-07-2002, 01:53
A pilot for a robotics show similar to this is being filmed next week. It's kind of like a high tech junkyard wars with robots but (AFAIK) more task-oriented FIRST-like competitions though on a smaller scale. It sounded like it would be more technical and in-depth than any show on currently although a lot may change if/when it makes it to TV.
I also heard someone at KSC was in charge of choosing the hosts (perhaps just for the pilot) and the finalists were all engineers, 4 who did FIRST and 2 who did BattleBots. They chose the BattleBots guys for whatever reason.
do you know when this show is going to be aired, because it's something that i would like to see.
BSMFIRST
14-07-2002, 14:27
They are just filming the pilot now, so it may not make it to TV at all. If it does, it will appear on a new cable channel (forgot the name.)
Dan
Have a look at this (http://slashdot.org/articles/02/07/14/1745209.shtml?tid=146) recent discussion. See what geeks think about BB and FIRST. :D
Oh man so much to reply to - well you guys posted YOUR bias opinions. Time for me to post mine, eh? I wish some posts could be made without jumping to a "who's better than who" Well, let me address some stuff without sounding like im flaming..just answering some comments thats all. Can't we just be civil and have a discussion without saying a FIRST bot is more sophisiticated? I can tell you right now that is WRONG. Just look at robots like Mechadon, Warhead, Snake, etc. Those are beautifully crafted machines...much more sophisticated than any FIRST robot in my opinion. You can't tell me mechadon isn't cool - it's a spider and each body section moves individually, it rolls, and it can walk like a spider. Mechadon and the Snake were made by a man that makes robots for movies (He made some for MIB, I can call those off the top of my head.) Warhead well, look him up, that robot is amazing. It's first appearance was last may...I can't explain how cool it is.
"i'm sure if we went up against a battle bot, we'd be able to push them around with no problem. but, if we were to get pushed into say a killsaw, it's all over. treads, gone. wheels, pretty much gone. "
Well, lets take this by weight class first. A First robot would qualify as a Heavyweight but to be fair I'll place it as a middleweight, 120 lbs being the max weight there. Very commonly used motors in battlebots are 24 v dewalt motors, NPC Motors(npcrobotics.com), magmotors (yes, for drive, www.robotbooks.com), and they're running at 24 volts. Due to the lack of limitation on the motors you can use and having a max operating voltage of 24-36, I can tell you that most battlebots WILL push around your first bot, without much effort too.
Next comment =)
"all in all i think the quality of the first bots are much better than battle bots... of course we have how many actual engineers and big corporations backing us... imagine if some big corporation had a robot built and entered it into battle bots... because of funding it would probably be quite good."
"yeah if a big corperation sponsored a battle but but they probably wont because battlebots isnt nearly as good as FIRST."
Wrong! Sony, Microsoft, Lincoln Welders, Comedy Central, Bosch(the providers of your drill motors), and many other companies I just wont bother to list. The list is huge there are MANY corporate sponsors vying to sponsor a battlebot. My team is currently talking to a big biomedical company (And yes - they do sponsor a FIRST team.). Sorry, I just had to get rid of this misconception.
"yes, FIRST robots tend to be more sophisticated in some ways, but battle bots always seem to look nicer (like cleaner and slightly more proffesional). now, we all have to remember, each robot is designed for a different purpose, so each will do one thing great, and pretty much suck at others. "
I love your mentality. You made a post without bashing either side. Thank you - atleast some people here post without any bias. You have to understand they are two DIFFERENT competitions with similar goals.
I love the idea - there are a lot of great minds in both sports. In fact some of those benefit from competing in both. I think it'd be interesting. Now that there is BBIQ there are high schools competing in a battlebots competition as well as FIRST. Many of those people in the pit next to you may have even been there. It's good to be open minded...I just wish that the bias and superiority complex was non-existant.
Wow, long post, thanks for reading if you did =)
-Dallin
lol, you both bashed and praised me... :p
anyways, i was under the impression that battle bots used similar motors and voltages, mostly because i keep hearing that FIRST things are being used with battle bots, and as far as i know, FIRST things only work with the %%%% batteries they give us (and that's why i'm not an electrical engineer ;)). although, i still think that our robot would have a fighting chance at pushing some battle bots on a level surface, and an even better chance on carpet. but, as i said before, they're designed for different purposes, so even if my robot could push a battle bot, that battle bot that i just pushed could come right back at me with a giant machette or something, and kinda simply hack my robot to pieces.
i think that if battle bots and FIRST could work together, some great things could happen. too bad so many people are completely biased though. sure, i like FIRST better, now, but that's because i've only seen battle bots on tv, and in my opinon, it sucked because comedy central took the good stuff out. i'm sure in a battle bots competition, the spirit is the same, except during a match :D.
It probably could but it all depends on the battlebot really. The battlebox arena is a steel floor. There are some treaded bots in Battlebots, probably using better drive motors(Battlebots is not restricted to a kit of parts, or anything for that matter...just the rules that state what weapon is allowed and a max voltage). El Diablo, El Diablo Grande, I can't remember the others but there have been a few..
When it all comes down to it, you guys have had your bots tested before. There are many first time, out of the garage, bolt on parts only, no machining battlebots out there because a father & son decided to build one together. I think what is happening is great, what FIRST doesn't offer(You have to be in a HS and you have to be able to mentor) is available in other mediums. And yes, maybe your FIRST bot could push those rookies around... but I welcome any FIRST bot to try and push around my bot while it's spinning at 1500+ (estimated, never clocked, the gear ratio/rpm per voltage indicates something around the 1500-2500 range) =) lol I kid, I kid! Mmm..the smell of melted 1/16" lexan!
(Disclaimer: The last part of that last paragraph was a joke and was not ment to be read as anything serious =) )
I hope what I explained about the rules/kit answered your question. There really is no limitation in Battlebots, only safety limitations which indicate how to turn it on/off, max voltage, max PSI, and certain safety precautions to be taken with anything. There are illegal weapons too, untethered projectiles, liquids, EMP, fire..
-Dallin
PS: I read a post made by Mr.B and I completely agree with him...I'll dig up the link/post number.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2227&highlight=battlebots
Also, I was thinking about this last night - Gracious profesionalism should not only be extended to fellow FIRST builders. It should be followed everywhere in life. I think that is the whole reason behind Dean and Woody teaching it to you. You excercise it in the FIRST competition but not when dealing with Battlebots or talking about the subject. Think about it as another corporation - you should extend gracious profesionalism to them. Im a bit sketchy about it's definition but it seems simple enough and I dont see why my theory wouldn't work, Dean expects us to use it in the future when we work at an Engineering firm or whatever...just something to think about. I was looking for an actual definition of "Gracious Profesionalism" but can't seem to find it anywhere.
Mike Soukup
16-07-2002, 15:50
Originally posted by Dallin
It's good to be open minded...I just wish that the bias and superiority complex was non-existant.
I have noticed this as well in many posts by FIRST students. After reading so many students slam other robot competitions I thought about why they do it. The answer is quite simple actually. Just as kids act like their parents and teams take on the personality of their leaders, FIRST has taken on the personality of its founders & leaders. Dean and Woodie bash BattleBots whenever they get the chance, so why would we expect anything different from students in FIRST? Dean believes his robotics competition is better than all others at inspiring students to be engineers, and he may be right. We are all biased towards FIRST because it's the program we have experienced first hand we have seen all its positive aspects. Unfortunately not many of us have seen the positive aspects of BB, all we know about the competitio not many of us have seen the positive aspects of BB, all we know about the competition is what we see on TV.
And on the subject of FIRST robots vs BB robots in the battle box, why bother? It's like racing a top fuel dragster and a mini-van in the 1/4 mile. Of course the dragster will win. But how well will the dragster haul 4 screaming and whining kids plus luggage from Chicago to Orlando? Different requirements lead to different designs. I'm sure many FIRST teams could build good BB robots and many BB teams could build good FIRST robots. not many of us have seen the positive aspects of BB, all we know about the competition is what we see on TV.
Mike
E. The Kidd
16-07-2002, 16:46
I like how people are examining the positives of both BB and FIRST but I do believe this topic is deviating from its original lighthearted theme and turning into something else.
p.s. I also don't have as much time on my hands and the posts are getting longer
Mike Soukup
16-07-2002, 18:00
Originally posted by team 713
1. If FIRST was to send a team of 4 people to the show who would it be?
Anyone but myself, since us software guys are useless in the scrapheap :D
Just wanted to bring back the light-hearted conversation for Evan.
Mike
mtaman02
17-07-2002, 02:05
First off it would be cool. Just in general to have 2 different leagues of robotics battling. FIRST Vs. BB. All in all FIRST will win since we (all FIRST robotics teams) even though you guys admit or don't; we ( all FIRST robotics teams)build "ROBUST" robots and this year pretty much proved and i hope that next year there will be a little bit more BB impression added to FIRST. :cool:
Second Off who wants to tell Dean that we should have a FIRST Robotics team build a 300lb. robot and send it to BB where it can show spectators the difference between FIRST built robots and BB built robots. :p
:D
mtaman02
17-07-2002, 02:07
and yes of course have at least one student representative from each FIRST team make up a combination of 5 teams consisting of about 4 - 6 people.
mechanics, drivers, programmers etc...
go programmers!! whoo!! :p
actually, the only bad part about a FIRST team that is not there in BB is that the team will segment. i became the lead programmer (out of two programmers, me and dan), and one of the drivers. i would kinda stand by and watch the mechanical side work, and try to help, but i'm still no where as good as the kids who worked just on the mechanical side.
in BB, you and your small team do EVERYTHING, especially if it's a father/son team. so, in that aspect, the BB people would have a much better chance in a junkyard, cause you take anyone, and they'd know what to do. once all the parts were back though, the FIRST team would be able to shoot ahead, because person A does motors, person B does electrical, person C does programming, etc., where the BB team, you have a harder time figuring out who excels where, unless you already know.
so, there are some places where a BB team would kill a FIRST team, and others where a BB team would be left behind in the dust. i think you can't really tell who would win, because each team has it's own unique (yeah, a bit redundant) problems, so they probably balance each other out. it would still be a very interesting competition to watch, even more so to be in.
BSMFIRST
17-07-2002, 17:51
You designed your FIRST robot to compete in FIRST; speculating about using it in any other way is an insult to your design.
Yeah, I'd have to agree with you there BSMFirst. Besides, I don't care how robust the robot is - 1/16-1/4" lexan is still butter to many spinners. (Off topic, I know..but really annoys me when people think their first bot to be the most complicated and sophisticated piece of machinery out there.)
A first bot is a FIRST bot, not a battlebot. Let's face it, a battlebot can score points(other than being in the endzone and maybe pushing other bots into it =)) about as much as a FIRST bot can overtake a battlebot in a push and shove match.
Now to be on topic:
I like the idea. Though - using my FIRST/BBIQ team as an example(and the other BBIQ teams I've seen) have people specializing in different fields such as welding, milling, turning, and doing the programing/wiring. I think it works about the same anywhere, the subdivision can be found in about any job. Everyone on my team can perform just about any task on our robot with the exception of some things for which we have an "expert" do. That's one of the great things of being on a small team, you get machinining time on everything.
Theres this new show, forgot the name, that's looking for teenagers to compete in it. It's similar to junkyard wars, I read up on it in the battlebot tech forum. Might wanna do a search for it.
-Dallin
yes, do a search on that show. be something cool to see, maybe even get some of my friends to participate in :D
BSMFIRST
18-07-2002, 03:17
Here's everything I know about this new show. I guess the first paragraph of the last post describe the show best.
Dan
-------------------------------------------
Posted by Brian Nave on the BattleBots forum on July 9th:
"OK, here is the deal...
Buzz and I have been chosen to co-host a new television series that is being produced in Knoxville, TN. We shoot the pilot on July 17th.
As it turns out one of the college teams that was scheduled to do the shoot may not be good TV material. The producer of the show has contacted me to see if there are any other college-aged people available to do a shoot on July 17th.
This is NOT a promise, or commitment that ANY of you will be chosen... Do NOT get your hopes up!
This is ONLY to find out what people are available, just in case some alternates are needed at the last second. So YOU are committing that you will be available on that date, including reasonable travel time (they are covering the travel and expenses).
We need a team of three that will represent a college. So you must be college aged and able to build robots. My understanding is that you need not be IN college or even from the same place, only that you are college AGED. I am seeking clarification of this now.
These will be complex autonomous robots, so a remote controlled box of motors is NOT a robot."
--------------------------------------
Same botguy, same bot-forum, same bot-date:
"The best way to describe the show would be Junkyard Wars with Robots.
If any of you have seen the show "Warehouse Warriors" then you know the concept... it is the same Production Company.
Two teams are given a task and a certain amount of time to complete it. Parts are available in the warehouse. Design the bot, get the parts, build it, make it work better than the other team, win.
I don't know what prizes, if any are being offered. I DO know it is all expenses paid.
P.S. That's funny... the font shows up bigger on my screen than the normal font, not smaller... what does the font look like to others, I wonder?"
_____________________
Posted by the other host of the show, Brett "Buzz" Dawson on July 10th on the BB forum:
"The concept of the show, as Brian said, is to build a bot from scratch in 8 hours to perform a specific task. The task will vary from episode to episode and the teams will not know what the task is until the day of the show. And, it is quite possible that they will not all be autonomous. Some show may incorporate hobby controllers like Futaba and HiTec to show that it can be done with a variety of controllers.
The show will be on DIY, the Do It Yourself network and therefore will be not only about the competition but how the viewer can do it at home.
So, how did we come by this gig? The show's producer have given a professor at UT (I think) the duty of finding a couple of hosts. Well, I guess he dropped the ball and things didn't get done so the producer hired a head hunter to find someone. Well, this head hunter used to work at the KSC Press Site and asked one of her former coworkers if there were any engineers here at NASA that had robotics experience that may consider it. I was at the top of the list and therefore got the call from Lucha, the headhunter, about 15 minutes later. She explained the concept and asked for an audition tape (that had to be in their hands in two days). She asked if I knew of anyone else that may be interested in doing it as well.
Since Brian and I are good friends and talk quite frequently and he is very good in front of a camera I forwarded the info to him and told Lucha, Gary, and Tom about it.
My understading from Tom and Brian are that 12 people applied for the spots, 10 from US FIRST and 2 from Battlebots. Well, I guess we know now which direction they went ;-)
Aside from all of that we really can't say much. If it all goes well then we'll shoot a whole season. Me personally, I am nervous as hell because I feel like a mental pygmy compared to some of you guys here so please take it easy on me :-p"
Andy Baker
18-07-2002, 09:18
I got a call about doing this show also. It was on a Wednesday, and I had to send a resume, cover letter and video of me doing something to them, in their hands, by Friday. So, I do all of this, and they never called me back. Now, I know the rest of the story... Thanks BSMFIRST.
I'm kinda perturbed about not getting any notification back, especially since I was recommended to them. I understand if they didn't want me, but the least they could do was let me know.
It does sound like a fun show. The producers are "Rivr Media" and they are the same outfit who started "Trading Spaces".
Andy B.
FIRST would win, we are WAY geekier!
P.s. I am a Sox Fan
GO SOX!!! :cool: :cool:
the fabricator
22-01-2004, 13:51
if it wasnt for battlebots, i woul;dnt care about robotics, battlebots is wat got me hooked, battlebots isnt just about puttin a hammer on ur bot and bashing people, the good bots actually are very complex, some things nobody in first could do, no offence to first but its true
Arefin Bari
25-01-2004, 21:07
battlebots are great!!! but to be honest FIRST has changed my life. there was times when i used to watch battlebots on tv when i wasnt in FIRST. i used to make comment like "yeah go beat up that bot and blahblahblah." but after i have gotten into FIRST my whole life changed. my life is surrounded with FIRST... i like battlebots too. i wouldnt mind doing it... but FIRST is MUST for me... :p
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