FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion

[Hallry]

Initial thoughts?

[AustinNordman]

So many things to do!

Edit:
Manual password @Ahead)Together!FRC^2016

[JoshWilson]

I think we have a new contender for best FRC game!

[Chris Endres]

Oh god.

[ey206208]

READ THE RULES! There is going to be a lot to this game!

[cmrnpizzo14]

Medieval stuff could be a little corny but I like the game overall.

[SciBorg Dave]

OH! what FUN

[Cyberphil]

Audience selecting the final defense is going to be interesting... love how that works with the medieval theme!

Also, extremely different way of using ranking points this year. You earn ranking points not only by winning the match, but also breaching the defenses and capturing the tower.

[yo_soy_jake]

Looks complicated, but I really like it! This is my first year with FRC, so I'm pretty excited to be a part of it!

[Drakxii]

I like the game, just hope the FMS/refs can keep up with it...

[Mike Marandola]

It looks like teams with more members with have a defense selection advantage since their yells will be more pronounced.

[Steven Donow]

Just a safety reminder... https://youtu.be/moM5DadQSXM

[MooreteP]

Field Reset Hell.

[XaulZan11]

Also, extremely different way of using ranking points this year. You earn ranking points not only by winning the match, but also breaching the defenses and capturing the tower.

It reminds me of 2012 and I predict it will play out similarly. Smart teams should have a significant advantage early as they will be focusing on barriers and scoring low while non-experienced teams will likely be attempting to score high.

[billbo911]

Best game I have seen since starting in 2005!

[Mike Marandola]

Best game I have seen since starting in 2005!

Definitely in my top 9 favorite games since Overdrive.

[An Outlier]

Not a water game???!?!?

[swaxman12345]

Well guys, time to start drilling for weight.

[carpedav000]

Audience selecting the final defense is going to be interesting...

I honestly think this will come into play during alliance selection early-midway through the season (loud teams as 2nd/3rd picks).

[Drakxii]

Not a water game???!?!?

It does have a moat field element...

[Cyberphil]

It reminds me of 2012 and I predict it will play out similarly. Smart teams should have a significant advantage early as they will be focusing on barriers and scoring low while non-experienced teams will likely be attempting to score high.

Though it is somewhat similar to 2012, one team on an alliance can get 4 ranking points while another team has the possibility to get 0 (not winning, not damaging the defense, not capturing the tower).

This is very different from 2012 where if cooperation happened both alliances received ranking points.

[Ubiquity]

Really challenging, especially for rookie team to build one or two practice field elements. Difficult to build a an uberbot that can both get across multiple barriers against defense, and then be able to attack tower. a simple boxbot can defend against an uberbot. Even a well established team would have trouble constructing multiple field elements to test against. I'll predict there will be a lot of pre-competition co-op to build practice field and discuss strategies.

Can Anyone put up an alternated site for the manual and field drawings? I can't get them from FIRST - timeouts. The webcast was perfect. I was ROTFL. Now go bring me a shrubbery!

[LGummy]

My god the foam balls are expensive

[XaulZan11]

Though it is somewhat similar to 2012, one team on an alliance can get 4 ranking points while another team has the possibility to get 0 (not winning, not damaging the defense, not capturing the tower).

This is very different from 2012 where if cooperation happened both alliances received ranking points.

Agreed. I was more referring to that fact that ranking points can be earned by ways other than winning matches, like 2012. (It is possible for a team to win a match and be passed in the rankings by a team they just beat).

[jaimem263]

How many boulders can we carry after the autonomous code?

[blazingbronco18]

How many boulders can we carry after the autonomous code?

Robot may be in possession of only one boulder at any given time.

[jajabinx124]

How many boulders can we carry after the autonomous code?

Robot may be in possession of only one boulder at any given time.

Rule below. Just if anyone was confused about what possessing or controling was.

G38 ROBOTS may not control more than one (1) BOULDER at any time.

Violation: FOUL per extra BOULDER

Moving or positioning a BOULDER to gain advantage is considered

“control.”

Examples include, but are not limited to:

A. “carrying” (holding BOULDERS inside a ROBOT)

B. “herding” (intentionally pushing or impelling BOULDERS to a desired

location or direction)

C.“trapping” (holding one or more BOULDERS against a FIELD element

in an attempt to shield or guard them)

D. “launching” (shooting BOULDERS into the air or throwing in a forceful

way)

Examples of interaction with BOULDERS that are not “control” include,

but are not limited to:

A. “bulldozing” (inadvertent contact with BOULDERS while in the path of

the ROBOT moving about the FIELD)

B. “deflecting” (being hit by a BOULDER that bounces into or off of a

ROBOT).

If a BOULDER becomes lodged in or on a ROBOT, it will be considered

controlled by the ROBOT. It is important to design your ROBOT so that

it is impossible to inadvertently or unintentionally control more than the

allowed maximum.

[Ccody_]

It's lit!

[DWCEagles228]

Field Reset Hell.

Refree job is hell even more

[asid61]

This looks incredibly difficult. Takes the award for "Most Complex FRC game" from Recycle Rush (or perhaps Diabolical Dynamics).

[EricLeifermann]

Anybody else notice 1 boulder is $35.00 from andymark?!?!? Seems crazy expensive, or did I read the description wrong and you get more than 1?

[2791GreenFlare]

Will there be water in the moat defense

[jajabinx124]

Will there be water in the moat defense

I think it's just blue HDPE... it better be HDPE..

[kevincrispie]

Anybody else notice 1 boulder is $35.00 from andymark?!?!? Seems crazy expensive, or did I read the description wrong and you get more than 1?

I see the same thing. The pack of 6 is $205 on gophersport.

http://www.gophersport.com/pe/premium-coating/gopher-softiball-coated-foam-balls?sku_id=3409

[jaimem263]

Is it legal to shoot the boulder from the neutral zone over the obstacles to the opponents side.? So that our spy can get the Boulder and score

[EricH]

Is it legal to shoot the boulder from the neutral zone over the obstacles to the opponents side.? So that our spy can get the Boulder and scoreI'd suggest reading G39 and G40, along with G42. How many tech fouls do you want?

[ATannahill]

Is it legal to shoot the boulder from the neutral zone over the obstacles to the opponents side.? So that our spy can get the Boulder and score
Check Rule G40.

[blazingbronco18]

This looks incredibly difficult. Takes the award for "Most Complex FRC game" from Recycle Rush (or perhaps Diabolical Dynamics).

Agreed. Might be a worse game to referee then Aerial Assist.

[evanatch]

This looks like an absolutely awesome game, I'm really excited to see what everyone comes up with. That being said, there are a lot of pretty complicated field elements. It's going to be hard for teams that don't have tons of students and money to practice.

[Darth Drew]

The moat has dehydrated water in it, just add water!

[MikLast]

For rule G22, would it be considered pinning if a robot was to inhibit forward motion while the opposing robot was in an defense?

For example, if the opposing robot was trying to move past one of the barriers and blocked forward motion into our side, would that be considered pinning?

[simon-andrews]

In the point values table, one of the things you can get points for is "REACHING A DEFENSE". I'm guessing it's a typo and they mean BREACHING, but I just want to make sure. Any ideas? Thanks!

Edit: Section 3.3.1, page 33

[ATannahill]

For rule G22, would it be considered pinning if a robot was to inhibit forward motion while the opposing robot was in an defense?

For example, if the opposing robot was trying to move past one of the barriers and blocked forward motion into our side, would that be considered pinning?
Check G43 and see if that answers your question.

[ATannahill]

In the point values table, one of the things you can get points for is "REACHING A DEFENSE". I'm guessing it's a typo and they mean BREACHING, but I just want to make sure. Any ideas? Thanks!

Edit: Section 3.3.1, page 33
I believe that in autonomous you get points for going onto the platform of a defensehaving any part of your bumpers within the outer works. Check page 31.

[EricH]

In the point values table, one of the things you can get points for is "REACHING A DEFENSE". I'm guessing it's a typo and they mean BREACHING, but I just want to make sure. Any ideas? Thanks!

Edit: Section 3.3.1, page 33
Read again. It's in auto mode. Reaching and Breaching are not the same thing.

[MikLast]

Check G43 and see if that answers your question.
Yes it does. thank you.

[simon-andrews]

I believe that in autonomous you get points for going onto the platform of a defense. Check page 31.

Read again. It's in auto mode. Reaching and Breaching are not the same thing.

Alright. Thanks for the help!

[Sarmed]

Does anyone know if you can score on a tower after it is fully weakened?

[Zaque]

Do boulders scored in auto count towards lowering the tower defense? I didn't see anything either way in the game manual.

[blazingbronco18]

Can you go through a defense twice in autonomous?

[MikLast]

Traction devices must not have surface features such as metal, sandpaper, hard plastic studs,
cleats, hook-loop fasteners or similar attachments that could damage the ARENA. Traction devices
include all parts of the ROBOT that are designed to transmit any propulsive and/or braking forces
between the ROBOT and FIELD carpet.

Unless there is another rule about traction that i could not find, would this make Treads legal as long they fit in this criteria?

[ATannahill]

Can you go through a defense twice in autonomous?
I see nothing that says you can't but check page 31 for details about decreasing the strength of a defense in auto.

[TheStatisticMan]

So is your driver station right behind your castle? Or is your castle on the other side of the field?

[MikLast]

So is your driver station right behind your castle? Or is your castle on the other side of the field?

it looks like it is between Station 2 and 3

Edit: misread question, Look at reply below.

[jajabinx124]

So is your driver station right behind your castle? Or is your castle on the other side of the field?

Yes your driver station is behind your own castle.

it looks like it is between Station 2 and 3

That's not what he is asking.

[MarieSpartronic]

Can your alliance accidentally weaken your own defenses? Because you are defending and the try to go to the neutral zone through the defenses...

[ykarkason]

So, what's the spy box good for?!

[Briansmithtown]

So, what's the spy box good for?!


Spying

[MikLast]

That's not what he is asking.

I misread. thank you.

[mr_abomination]

Unless there is another rule about traction that i could not find, would this make Treads legal as long they fit in this criteria?

I think treads have always been legal.

Speaking of treads, does anybody know any good resources for building and/or buying treads?

[Briansmithtown]

I think treads have always been legal.

Speaking of treads, does anybody know any good resources for building and/or buying treads?

Andymark

[JoshWilson]

So, what's the spy box good for?!

You can have a human player direct you, since it's hard to see what your doing on the opponents side from your driver station

[jajabinx124]

Can your alliance accidentally weaken your own defenses? Because you are defending and the try to go to the neutral zone through the defenses...

This question is interesting.. I think you can weaken/damage your own defenses. Correct me if I am wrong, but that's my interpretation of the rules so far

[JoshWilson]

Btw, doesn anyone know if flying is illegal?

[Briansmithtown]

Can you go from the courtyard to the defense? Or do you have to use the secret passage?

[mr_abomination]

Andymark

Know that, anybody else?

[EricH]

Can you go from the courtyard to the defense? Or do you have to use the secret passage?
From YOUR side, you can use the secret passage. If you're on THEIR side (where you're trying to score), you can't.

[Briansmithtown]

From YOUR side, you can use the secret passage. If you're on THEIR side (where you're trying to score), you can't.

Ok... how do you get back from their side you're scoring on to the neutral zone?

[EricH]

Ok... how do you get back from their side you're scoring on to the neutral zone?
Personally, I'd take a Sally Port or a Drawbridge.

[Briansmithtown]

Personally, I'd take a Sally Port or a Drawbridge.

ok thanks... the sally port would be a win win because you can get another robot over there and break their defenses.

[MikLast]

so is there anything stopping us from going back and forth on an defense to get points? and would our defenses be weakened if we pass through it? and does it count as weakening defense if we cross one from the enemy side to the neutral zone?

[Gir_450]

Is there a maximum height from the ground to the bottom of the chassis?

[Nick.kremer]

so is there anything stopping us from going back and forth on an defense to get points? and would our defenses be weakened if we pass through it? and does it count as weakening defense if we cross one from the enemy side to the neutral zone?

You only get points for crossing a particular defense once, after that no points are awarded. Also it seems as if passing through your own defense does weaken it, so take the secret passage. And a crossing is defined as going from neutral over the defense and onto the enemy courtyard.

[MikLast]

You only get points for weakening a defense once. Also it seems as if passing through your own defense does weaken it, so take the secret passage..

Realized i wrote the wrong thing, to Damage the defenses, could you just go back and forth?

And a crossing is defined as going from neutral over the defense and onto the enemy courtyard
Glanced over that, thank you.

You only get points for crossing a particular defense once, after that no points are awarded.

Some people on my team think you can do it twice before no points will be awarded (logic is its undamaged, then weakened, then damaged, and since it is not damaged till crossed twice you would get points) do you have a rule to back up what you have said?

[ATannahill]

You only get points for crossing a particular defense once, after that no points are awarded. Also it seems as if passing through your own defense does weaken it, so take the secret passage. And a crossing is defined as going from neutral over the defense and onto the enemy courtyard.
You can get points for crossing each defense twice because the defense is not damaged until the defense's strength is zero. You can only get points for crossing or weaken a defense once in auto.

[Nick.kremer]

You can get points for crossing each defense twice because the defense is not damaged until the defense's strength is zero. You can only get points for crossing or weaken a defense once in auto.

You are correct, I just checked that. You get 10 points in Auto, and 5 points in tele for crossing an undamaged defense. a defense is considered damaged once its strength is zero, so you can get points for crossing twice

[jrsmith]

Great game! Has lots of opportunities for gotchas and trade space when it comes to design. It will be rough on volunteers. Challenge Accepted.

[Bkelly28]

If we score a ball during auto does that count against the enemy's castle?

[Nick.kremer]

If we score a ball during auto does that count against the enemy's castle?

Section 3.1.4: The Tower
Each TOWER starts the MATCH with eight (8) STRENGTH. Each BOULDER scored in a GOAL decreases the TOWER’S STRENGTH by one (1).

Hmm doesnt say anything about auton/teleop

[frcmarketing]

Did first give us regulations regarding the flag we post above our player station? This is a very important issue...

[Redo91]

Did first give us regulations regarding the flag we post above our player station? This is a very important issue...

This information was posted on the Blog a while back. (http://www.firstinspires.org/robotics/frc/blog/something-new%E2%80%93team-standards)

[robot7600]

Best game I have seen since starting in 2005!
It is the best game since i have been on my team.

[ATannahill]

Can someone help me understand some things about defenses?

Am I correct in believing that when the audience selects the defense, the same defense is used on both sides?

When alliances make their selections for the other slots (2,4-5), is it possible for them to select the same defenses as their opponents, i.e. can both alliances choose the Rough Terrain for Category D? I could not find anything that prevents this.

[robot7600]

Can someone help me understand some things about defenses?

Am I correct in believing that when the audience selects the defense, the same defense is used on both sides?

When alliances make their selections for the other slots (2,4-5), is it possible for them to select the same defenses as their opponents, i.e. can both alliances choose the Rough Terrain for Category D? I could not find anything that prevents this.

I believe that that would be correct. But about the audience selection I am unaware weather or not is specifies.

[Redo91]

Can someone help me understand some things about defenses?

Am I correct in believing that when the audience selects the defense, the same defense is used on both sides?

When alliances make their selections for the other slots (2,4-5), is it possible for them to select the same defenses as their opponents, i.e. can both alliances choose the Rough Terrain for Category D? I could not find anything that prevents this.

Check out 5.5.10 in the Game Manual, it has information regarding DEFENSES.

[robot7600]

someone look at the game manual. apparently the moat is 2ft. deep.

[MikLast]

someone look at the game manual. apparently the moat is 2ft. deep. According to the build manual.

game manual confirms, page 13.

[robot7600]

game manual confirms, page 13.

I am guessing that it is a typo.

[Redo91]

someone look at the game manual. apparently the moat is 2ft. deep.

Look at 2.2.2.10 in the Game Manual, there is a drawing with the dimensions.

[The Devinator]

Can a defense be broken in autonomous mode? ::ouch::

[ATannahill]

Check out 5.5.10 in the Game Manual, it has information regarding DEFENSES.
I have read this section, along with section 2.2.2.1. I am fairly confident in my first statement, but not the second. I looked through the figures in the manual and none have the defenses repeated.

[ATannahill]

Can a defense be broken in autonomous mode? ::ouch::
You should check page 31. A defense can be damaged (please use the correct term so that searches will pull this post up as a result in the future) if two different robots cross it in autonomous.

[Redo91]

Can a defense be broken in autonomous mode? ::ouch::

Section 3.1.3 of the Game Manual has the information you seek.

[Alex Webber]

We had a quick question regarding the towers,

If the tower has been weakened to 0, if a robot shoots an additional Boulder at the tower, and it goes into a goal, does the alliance still gain points?

If the tower has been weakened, will the points from the balls still continue?

Thanks, and looking forward to this amazing game :)

[MikLast]

on the diagram on page 3, section 1.2 (same image is also on Page 8, section 2) , it shows the audience selected items one to the right of the center. On page 100 however (5.5.10.1) it says that it belongs in the center outer works spot. Am i correct in saying that the pictures in question are in error?

[ATannahill]

on the diagram on page 3, section 1.2 (same image is also on Page 8, section 2) , it shows the audience selected items one to the right of the center. On page 100 however (5.5.10.1) it says that it belongs in the center outer works spot. Am i correct in saying that the pictures in question are in error?
What diagram are you talking about? Can you give a figure number?

The audience selected item goes in slot 3, which is the center defense. Because of the secret passage, the center defense is not in the center of the field.

[MikLast]

What diagram are you talking about? Can you give a figure number?

The audience selected item goes in slot 3, which is the center defense. Because of the secret passage, the center defense is not in the center of the field.

Figure 2-1. By center i mean the center of the 5 outer works, or spot 3. In Figure 2.1 it shows the audience selected one in Position 4/2.

[Redo91]

We had a quick question regarding the towers,

If the tower has been weakened to 0, if a robot shoots an additional Boulder at the tower, and it goes into a goal, does the alliance still gain points?

If the tower has been weakened, will the points from the balls still continue?

Thanks, and looking forward to this amazing game :)

Double check section 3.1.4 and section 3.3.1 of the Game Manual.

[Team5730-Pros]

You can get points for crossing each defense twice because the defense is not damaged until the defense's strength is zero. You can only get points for crossing or weaken a defense once in auto.

Can you damage your own defense by using it to cross into the neutral zone instead of the secret passage, and if so can you find a rule that states this?

[ATannahill]

Figure 2.1. By center i mean the center of the 5 outer works, or spot 3. In Figure 2.1 it shows the audience selected one in Position 4/2.
FYI, the figure titles are hyphenated, I couldn't find it by using the find function and 2.1.

How do you know which ones are audience selected? The text does not tell you.

If I understand the audience selection process correctly than the same defense should be used on both sides, there is no defense repeated expect for the low bar.

[Redo91]

Figure 2.1. By center i mean the center of the 5 outer works, or spot 3. In Figure 2.1 it shows the audience selected one in Position 4/2.

Figure 2-1 looks to just be a CAD rendering of the field with all the different DEFENSES installed.

[ATannahill]

Can you damage your own defense by using it to cross into the neutral zone instead of the secret passage, and if so can you find a rule that states this?
You cannot damage (successful crossing twice) a defense by moving from a courtyard into the neutral zone because the definition of crossing (pg. 31) requires you move the opposite direction.

[MikLast]

FYI, the figure titles are hyphenated, I couldn't find it by using the find function and 2.1.

How do you know which ones are audience selected? The text does not tell you.

If I understand the audience selection process correctly than the same defense should be used on both sides, there is no defense repeated expect for the low bar.

The post will be edited to make sure people can find it.

Page 100, 5.5.10.1 says that the audience selects Outer Works pos 3, and in figure 2-4, it shows pos 3 as in the center (of the 5 outer works spots) and in fugure 2-1 the audience selected is in pos 2 and 4, which is incorrect.

[Harharhoman]

on the diagram on page 3, section 1.2 (same image is also on Page 8, section 2) , it shows the audience selected items one to the right of the center. On page 100 however (5.5.10.1) it says that it belongs in the center outer works spot. Am i correct in saying that the pictures in question are in error?

For what I have found, the picture is wrong since the field tour video also said that it was the middle/center defense was chosen by the audience.

My question is how do they choose, is it a poll or measured in decibels?

[Team5730-Pros]

You cannot damage (successful crossing twice) a defense by moving from a courtyard into the neutral zone because the definition of crossing (pg. 31) requires you move the opposite direction.

can you damage your own defense if you go from the neutral zone into your own courtyard?

[sdaws233]

Does anyone know if the outerworks are available for purchase online and if so what the website would be?

[cait.schroeder]

Yeah, there are going to be a lot of things going on for the refs to watch.

[tindleroot]

For those who are worried about the price of the boulders, keep in mind that you don't need many, 1 - 4 would be fine. The only issue would be wear and tear over time, but if you plan to play ONLY with new balls then you shouldn't plan to play in eliminations.

[ATannahill]

The post will be edited to make sure people can find it.

Page 100, 5.5.10.1 says that the audience selects Outer Works pos 3, and in figure 2-4, it shows pos 3 as in the center (of the 5 outer works spots) and in fugure 2-1 the audience selected is in pos 2 and 4, which is incorrect.
How are you seeing that the audience selected ones are in 2 and 4?

[ATannahill]

For what I have found, the picture is wrong since the field tour video also said that it was the middle/center defense was chosen by the audience.

My question is how do they choose, is it a poll or measured in decibels?
The head ref is the judge on that, it is by loudest response.

[MikLast]

How are you seeing that the audience selected ones are in 2 and 4?

Group A pieces are the audience selected ones. those are the ones pos 2/4.

[ATannahill]

can you damage your own defense if you go from the neutral zone into your own courtyard?
No, the definition of crossed (pg. 31) requires you to end up in the opponent's courtyard. I do not know how one can do that by attempting to cross into your courtyard.

[Redo91]

Group A pieces are the audience selected ones. those are the ones pos 2/4.

You need to reread the rules governing how the DEFENSES are selected, in section 5.5.10.

[JoshWilson]

someone look at the game manual. apparently the moat is 2ft. deep.
the moat isn't 2ft deep, as in how far down it goes. I got to go on the field and see all the stuff at the kickoff event, and it only went a little above my ankle. Either it's referring to a different t dimension, or it's a typo

[Redo91]

I have read this section, along with section 2.2.2.1. I am fairly confident in my first statement, but not the second. I looked through the figures in the manual and none have the defenses repeated.

Check out the second paragraph in 5.5.10.

[ATannahill]

Check out the second paragraph in 5.5.10.
As I understand, that paragraph only governs the practice matches and allows teams to pick what they practice against.

[EricH]

Does anyone know if the outerworks are available for purchase online and if so what the website would be?
They aren't. Your field build team will build them.

[MikLast]

You need to reread the rules governing how the DEFENSES are selected, in section 5.5.10.

if you read my other comments, you would see i was referencing the fact that figure 2-1 is incorrect, as it shows them in the wrong position, unless you are pointing something else out, which next time would be great to know instead of being broad.

[ATannahill]

if you read my other comments, you would see i was referencing the fact that figure 2-1 is incorrect, as it shows them in the wrong position, unless you are pointing something else out, which next time would be great to know instead of being broad.
Category A is not the one that is always chosen by the audience. The category will change throughout the event.

[alicen]

if you read my other comments, you would see i was referencing the fact that figure 2-1 is incorrect, as it shows them in the wrong position, unless you are pointing something else out, which next time would be great to know instead of being broad.

The audience chosen defenses are not always the tall tower/door looking defense. The audience chooses one of the two defense choices from a predetermined category that is generated with the match schedule.

In figure 2-1, it appears that the audience chosen defenses were from Category B

Hope that helps! :)

[MikLast]

Category A is not the one that is always chosen by the audience. The category will change throughout the event.

Ah, i thought this excluded group A. My mistake, thank you.

[Redo91]

As I understand, that paragraph only governs the practice matches and allows teams to pick what they practice against.

I got something crossed on my replying, that was an irrelevant response by me.

Being that there are double of the DEFENSES (the audience selected DEFENSE being the same for both ALLIANCES) I would take that to mean there is a full set of DEFENSES for each ALLIANCE. Also, I saw nothing stating the DEFENSE selection is dependent on the opposing ALLIANCES selections.

[Koko Ed]

This looks incredibly difficult. Takes the award for "Most Complex FRC game" from Recycle Rush (or perhaps Diabolical Dynamics).

FIRST Frenzy: Raising the Bar was the most complex I saw in my years with FIRST.

[alicen]

This looks like it's going to be a pretty insane game for all volunteers that are anywhere near the field. :yikes:

Refs are going to have an interesting time. I would guess, similar amounts of crazyness as Aerial Assist, in that there will be a lot going on, but it won't be happening at the same speed as AA

[Koko Ed]

They aren't. Your field build team will build them.

It would be best for teams to ally with other teams in your area to build and host practice matches. This year more than any year. Shop practice, practice bots, practice matches and going to multiple events is a HUGE advantage!

[ScottRandallWay]

some of the defenses (gate and drawbridge) would be easy to breach from the courtyard side. Can you go through the courtyard side then reverse once you are in contact with the nuetral zone while still contacting the drawbridge or gate and then go back through to score a breach?

[EricH]

some of the defenses (gate and drawbridge) would be easy to breach from the courtyard side. Can you go through the courtyard side then reverse once you are in contact with the nuetral zone while still contacting the drawbridge or gate and then go back through to score a breach?
Nope. You have to start free of contact with the Defense in the Neutral Zone.

[ScottRandallWay]

what if you come through backwards and then hold it open for an alliance team?

[EricH]

what if you come through backwards and then hold it open for an alliance team?
They can go through and cross.

[ratdude747]

Know that, anybody else?

Gates makes such treads... In fact, in 2010, one of my former teams (2783) actually got such treads donated in return for sponsor space on the robot. That was back in 2010 though, so things may have changed.

[Hugekase]

So, on the line of the spy, what are the restrictions of movement? Can the spy move from the spy box? And if so, what about the person? The spy in itself has not really been covered in the manual, just briefly talking about it, can someone please explain further?

[EricH]

So, on the line of the spy, what are the restrictions of movement? Can the spy move from the spy box? And if so, what about the person? The spy in itself has not really been covered in the manual, just briefly talking about it, can someone please explain further?
You can't contact anything outside the Spy Box. That would include floor.


The Spy's role is to signal the alliance as to things they need to know.

[Hugekase]

You can't contact anything outside the Spy Box. That would include floor.


The Spy's role is to signal the alliance as to things they need to know.

Ok, so on the line of that, so the spy bot can not be controlled once in the box, only in the round?

And, on the other hand, what is the advantage of having the spy bot? Is it required?

[MikLast]

Ok, so on the line of that, so the spy bot can not be controlled once in the box, only in the round?

And, on the other hand, what is the advantage of having the spy bot? Is it required?

the spy bot is not in a box, only a human player is.

[Hugekase]

the spy bot is not in a box, only a human player is.

I am still really confused on the whole spy thing, it seems like a not needed thing, and if you move it out of it's area, you could get fouled on it, whats the point of it?

[MikLast]

I am still really confused on the whole spy thing, it seems like a not needed thing, and if you move it out of it's area, you could get fouled on it, whats the point of it?

Are you confused on the Spy Box, the Spy Bot, or both?

[Bentorino]

Anybody else notice 1 boulder is $35.00 from andymark?!?!? Seems crazy expensive, or did I read the description wrong and you get more than 1?

Gopher balls are pretty expensive! If you want just the same balls, you can buy the rainbow set, but it won't be FIRST branded.

Set of 6 is going for around $200: http://www.gophersport.com/pe/premium-coating/gopher-softiball-coated-foam-balls/?sku_id=2877&gclid=Cj0KEQiA_MK0BRDQsf_bsZS-_OIBEiQADPf--kpsH6FmNTVRVxthpnHAQY4V0GV5gDW2u7vnx4HsrOgaAv3l8P8 HAQ

[EricH]

I am still really confused on the whole spy thing, it seems like a not needed thing, and if you move it out of it's area, you could get fouled on it, whats the point of it?
There are two spies.

Spy BOX: Place where a human stands (Driver or Human Player). They act as an extra set of eyes.

Spy BOT: Robot that starts in the Courtyard. No difference from any other robot on the alliance other than starting location.

[Redo91]

Ok, so on the line of that, so the spy bot can not be controlled once in the box, only in the round?

And, on the other hand, what is the advantage of having the spy bot? Is it required?

The issue seems to be that SPY is not defined in the GLOSSARY. If you check out the definition of SPY BOX, though, it is located outside the FIELD. Rule G9 then discusses the occupant of the SPY BOX.Check out rule G7, it talks about the "spy bot".

[Redo91]

Gopher balls are pretty expensive! If you want just the same dimensinos and firmness you can buy the rainbow set, but it won't be FIRST branded.

Set of 6 is going for around $80: http://www.gophersport.com/pe/premium-coating/gopher-softiball-coated-foam-balls/?sku_id=2877&gclid=Cj0KEQiA_MK0BRDQsf_bsZS-_OIBEiQADPf--kpsH6FmNTVRVxthpnHAQY4V0GV5gDW2u7vnx4HsrOgaAv3l8P8 HAQ

Make sure you have the correct diameter selected, the 10 inch set is $205.

[michchinn]

Gopher balls are pretty expensive! If you want just the same dimensinos and firmness you can buy the rainbow set, but it won't be FIRST branded.

Set of 6 is going for around $80: http://www.gophersport.com/pe/premium-coating/gopher-softiball-coated-foam-balls/?sku_id=2877&gclid=Cj0KEQiA_MK0BRDQsf_bsZS-_OIBEiQADPf--kpsH6FmNTVRVxthpnHAQY4V0GV5gDW2u7vnx4HsrOgaAv3l8P8 HAQ

Check your diameter. The 10” balls on the website you attached are $205 for a set of 6. It is $80 only for the 6.3” diameter balls.

[Hugekase]

Alright, this makes a lot more sense about the spy, now then, what about the secret passage, where is the exact rules on it, and if the same team can bypass the defenses on there side.

[ATannahill]

Alright, this makes a lot more sense about the spy, now then, what about the secret passage, where is the exact rules on it, and if the same team can bypass the defenses on there side.
What are you thoughts? Open the pdf of the manual and use the find function to search for secret passage.

[H78]

Does anyone know if the Q&A system is open, or when it opens if it isn't yet? How do you ask a question, when it's open?

[GaryVoshol]

Refree job is hell even more

Naah, just give me an decibel measuring app.

Although I suspect we will be busy scoring points for CROSSINGS.

[GaryVoshol]

I think it's just blue HDPE... it better be HDPE..

He had to take his shoes off .... ;)

[EricH]

Does anyone know if the Q&A system is open, or when it opens if it isn't yet? How do you ask a question, when it's open?
It is not open. It's not open to try to force everybody to actually read the Manual.

It should open up mid-week--tradition is that it opens on the first Wednesday of build season, AFTER Team Update #1 comes out on Tuesday.

And when it's open, they'll have a message out on how to use it.

[GaryVoshol]

For rule G22, would it be considered pinning if a robot was to inhibit forward motion while the opposing robot was in an defense?

For example, if the opposing robot was trying to move past one of the barriers and blocked forward motion into our side, would that be considered pinning?

Past interpretations have been that if a robot has a path out, it's not a pin. You have to contact the robot and prevent it from moving for it to be a pin.

[EricH]

Past interpretations have been that if a robot has a path out, it's not a pin. You have to contact the robot and prevent it from moving for it to be a pin.
However, there is another rule that could be in play. If they're heading to or from your Courtyard, and you interfere, there's a foul for that.

[picklecrackers]

Has anyone found anything regarding how the boulders must be rolled into the secret passages? Do they have to be entered using a bowling-type fashion?

[EricH]

Has anyone found anything regarding how the boulders must be rolled into the secret passages? Do they have to be entered using a bowling-type fashion?
You'll notice a "drop box" above the chutes they roll through...

[greekfire100]

What are the perks of having a spy on the other side of the map? I'm curious to know.

[Sasha_Nut]

In regards to defense selection, do you select the defenses that you have to traverse, or do you select the defenses your opponent has to traverse?

You select the defenses that your opponents have to traverse.

[natejo99]

I've noticed the game seems to contain many small elements from past games. Climbing similar to 2013, the Rock Wall and the Cheval de Frise seem similar to 2012, etc. Do you think this will present a significant disadvantage to newer teams who didn't need to overcome those obstacles in previous games?

[plnyyanks]

Has anyone found anything regarding how the boulders must be rolled into the secret passages? Do they have to be entered using a bowling-type fashion?

Take note of G4, G33, and the diagrams in section 2.2.3.1 (Section 2, page 15).

[picklecrackers]

You'll notice a "drop box" above the chutes they roll through...
Are you saying that the drop box is the only alternative to using a bowling-motion with the embrasures?

[endreman0]

The abundance of robot demo videos should negate this problem.

[medofbr]

the rule just say that they have to enter through one of the 3 holes in the hp station (G33), so pushing kicking the boulder through a bottom hole may be allowed as long as you do not put your hand/foot through.

[Fletch1373]

FIRST Frenzy: Raising the Bar was the most complex I saw in my years with FIRST.

My rookie year, can confirm!

[alopex_rex]

the rule just say that they have to enter through one of the 3 holes in the hp station (G33), so pushing kicking the boulder through a bottom hole may be allowed as long as you do not put your hand/foot through.

At the kickoff I attended, they had 2/3 of a field set up, and I saw someone trying to kick a boulder through the HP station all the way to the opposite courtyard. He couldn't get it to go under the low bar, but he did get it over the ramparts, which were positioned next to the low bar.

[rich2202]

What are the perks of having a spy on the other side of the map? I'm curious to know.

The perks of having a Human Player spy is that they have a better view of the other side of the field.

One benefit of having a Spy Bot is for bots that cannot cross the defenses. At least they can shoot, and later on help capture the castle.

[rich2202]

I like the game, just hope the FMS/refs can keep up with it...

Ref's don't have to count boulders, there are sensors for that.

Ref's have to watch:
1) Robots crossing defenses.
2) Robots tossing balls at the wrong time
3) Robot interaction
4) Human players (spy, boulder person)
5) Capture castle at the end

Seems pretty manageable to me.

[rich2202]

For rule G22, would it be considered pinning if a robot was to inhibit forward motion while the opposing robot was in an defense?

For example, if the opposing robot was trying to move past one of the barriers and blocked forward motion into our side, would that be considered pinning?

That would be a G43 foul, not a G22 foul.

[Mikyway]

Would it be possible and viable to just have your robot stand in front of the human player station and launch boulders into the tower like some teams did with the frisbees in Ultimate Ascent

[evanperryg]

Oh god.

I was really liking this game, even if it's corny I found it interesting. I like that they've left options to adapt the game to higher levels of play. I like the "low bar" idea, as it gives toasters something to contribute in a game where they otherwise couldn't do much (though I would like to see someone make a robot that can fit under the portcullis without raising it). I like the batter cleats, as they could serve a dual purpose as a very easy alignment tool for shooting. Oh, and hooray for the return of frame perimeter!

BUT...

I read the words "audience selection" and I died inside... seriously, who thought of this horribly imbalanced way of deciding the outcome of a game. Especially at smaller events (looking at you, districts) It's a pretty easy way for big teams to leverage their size to shift a match in their favor, either by picking a defense their team can score in, or picking a defense that other teams can't score in. How much of an effect will this have for the first few weeks, and at lower levels of play? Probably none. However, at high levels of play, it could have an effect.
By the looks of it, slot 3 and 4 are good places to put the portcullis to really screw with tower vision. Another potential easy way for large teams to cripple smaller (or quieter) teams. I don't mean to rail on big teams, I'm from one, but the audience selected defense is so easily exploited, that it just isn't fair under certain conditions.
The complexity of this field is just screaming "field fault." Any team looking to ensure that they don't get screwed by improper field setup should keep copies of their requested defense configurations. Someone please tell me that it's designed so that you can't put the Category C structures in backwards. It might sound silly, but I'd bet my life that someone's gonna put the drawbridge in backwards at some point in week 1.
The complexity of this field also means that it will be very difficult for most teams to have a complete set of practice field components.


Predictions about gameplay:

Smart, strategic drivers and tiny robots will make terrifying opponents. A team with a good collector and good driver will put themselves in a whole new class of "map control" teams. Utilizing the many choke points on the field, pushing boulders through the low bar for allies, and completing a few barrier objectives will make the lives of shooter robots much easier, and teams who can consistently complete these tasks will be power picks, even if they don't put up many points alone.
Captures will be MUCH more common in elims than breaches. This is because a breach requires robots to be able to get through the Portcullis/cheval de frise, as well as either the low bar or drawbridge/sally port. Any combination of these objectives is based entirely on the alliance's combined abilities, and most teams will scout to find what defenses certain teams struggle with.
HPs will either figure out how to get the ball past the low bars, or get them to angle them into the neutral zone.
The cheval de frise will be the most underutilized defense, throughout much of the season. The portcullis provides some utility as a vision block to drivers, although it is probably easier to get past than the cheval. Also, on that topic, spy usage will be limited for the first couple weeks, but will gain huge importance later in the season.
There will be video of some team getting stuck on the rock wall before week 2.


The best alliances at the regional level, assuming the tower strength rules aren't changed, will include:
A pure shooting robot that can get over the easier barriers, possibly with climbing capabilities
A robot that can either shoot or herd into the low goal, that can also handle the more difficult barriers
A robot that can herd balls through the low bar

Just a safety reminder... https://youtu.be/moM5DadQSXM
This just... I... I don't think I've laughed this much at a Youtube video before.

[rich2202]

Would it be possible and viable to just have your robot stand in front of the human player station and launch boulders into the tower like some teams did with the frisbees in Ultimate Ascent

See G39

[EricH]

Would it be possible and viable to just have your robot stand in front of the human player station and launch boulders into the tower like some teams did with the frisbees in Ultimate Ascent
No. Tech Foul. You have to be in your opponents' Courtyard to launch.

[MasterEric]

Has anyone found anything regarding how the boulders must be rolled into the secret passages? Do they have to be entered using a bowling-type fashion?

https://youtu.be/HsvsOI5jV-s?t=45s

Either through a bowling-style throw or pushing in a hole in the top (where it can only fall vertically).

[alopex_rex]

I read the words "audience selection" and I died inside... seriously, who thought of this horribly imbalanced way of deciding the outcome of a game. Especially at smaller events (looking at you, districts) It's a pretty easy way for big teams to leverage their size to shift a match in their favor, either by picking a defense their team can score in, or picking a defense that other teams can't score in. How much of an effect will this have for the first few weeks, and at lower levels of play? Probably none. However, at high levels of play, it could have an effect.


Bear in mind the scope of the audience selection is really limited. They only get to pick the middle defense, they only get to pick between two options, and both alliances get the same defense. I don't know how often there'll be a situation where one alliance would clearly benefit from one choice, and the other alliance from the other. I do suspect that drivers will dislike the tall, vision-obstructing defenses (portcullis and drawbridge), and maybe encourage their teams not to vote for those.

[northstardon]

BUT...
[LIST]
I read the words "audience selection" and I died inside... seriously, who thought of this horribly imbalanced way of deciding the outcome of a game. Especially at smaller events (looking at you, districts) It's a pretty easy way for big teams to leverage their size to shift a match in their favor, either by picking a defense their team can score in, or picking a defense that other teams can't score in. How much of an effect will this have for the first few weeks, and at lower levels of play? Probably none. However, at high levels of play, it could have an effect.

Check out rule 5.5.10.1.

If I am reading it right, the audience only gets to pick between the defense options within a single group, and the groups are rotated alphabetically. So we won't see the same audience selection round after round after round (despite what the biggest or loudest team might want).

[TheRozb]

What are the perks of having a spy on the other side of the map? I'm curious to know.
As far as human players are concerned, with many of the defenses, visibility is going to be an absolute NIGHTMARE. The low bar, drawbridge, sally door, and, to some extent, the portcullis cut down on visibility of the robot, especially considering that there will be two layers of defense objects to look through. The human spy can communicate back to the drive team on the position of the robot, whether it is lined up, etc.

[Collin Stiers]

As far as human players are concerned, with many of the defenses, visibility is going to be an absolute NIGHTMARE. The low bar, drawbridge, sally door, and, to some extent, the portcullis cut down on visibility of the robot, especially considering that there will be two layers of defense objects to look through. The human spy can communicate back to the drive team on the position of the robot, whether it is lined up, etc.

just thinking about this, if you have a robot that is shorter than 1 ft 4 inches (designed to get under the low bar) you will not be able to see your robot pretty much at all while it is in the opponents courtyard

[MaGiC_PiKaChU]

For those who are worried about the price of the boulders, keep in mind that you don't need many, 1 - 4 would be fine. The only issue would be wear and tear over time, but if you plan to play ONLY with new balls then you shouldn't plan to play in eliminations.

^+1

[Hasan333]

Btw, doesn anyone know if flying is illegal?
i mean you cant score if you are touching the carpet....

[FRC Warrior]

just thinking about this, if you have a robot that is shorter than 1 ft 4 inches (designed to get under the low bar) you will not be able to see your robot pretty much at all while it is in the opponents courtyard

Put a tall collapsable flag on your robot.

[RidingTiger71]

How many points would be considered average in this competition

[mrnoble]

Put a tall collapsable flag on your robot.

Not against this idea at all. Nice.

[MaGiC_PiKaChU]

Put a tall collapsable flag on your robot.

make sure it does not extend past 15" your frame when going under that bar!

[GIrobotics]

My team was thinking of using treads. Is there any place other than Andymark where we got get treads?

[evanperryg]

Check out rule 5.5.10.1.

If I am reading it right, the audience only gets to pick between the defense options within a single group, and the groups are rotated alphabetically. So we won't see the same audience selection round after round after round (despite what the biggest or loudest team might want).

My concern is that scouting data could easily be used to find which defense among the two a particular team is good/bad with. Here's a hypothetical situation: Team A has 19 QP, and is the first seed. Team B has 18 QP, and is the second seed. However, although they aren't terrible, Team A isn't better than anyone else in the top 8, and Team B would much rather be with someone else. Team A, understanding their situation, is willing to scorch to ensure a win in elims. Both teams have one match left in qualifications. Now, let's say that Team B is a big team, and they know that in team A's last match, the audience decides the Group A barriers; their scouts know Team A is good with the portcullis, but terrible with the Cheval de Frise. So, Team B leverages their size, outscreams everyone, and gets the Cheval in A's last match, thereby influencing the outcome of a match they aren't even in.

All I'm saying is, I wouldn't have any hesitation in making big signs with the names of the defenses on them, and flashing them to my team to tell them what structure to cheer for.

My team was thinking of using treads. Is there any place other than Andymark where we got get treads?

Here you go, bud. I suggest the wedgetop. (http://www.vexrobotics.com/traction-wheels.html)

Put a tall collapsable flag on your robot.

I recall seeing teams use those fiberglass rods in 2013 as alignment tools, and they could flex to fit under the pyramid. I don't know if they'd be flexible enough for this, though.

[alopex_rex]

My prediction is that, in practice, the audience selection will be as good as random. Of course, teams will still put lots of effort into figuring out which defense they ought to cheer for. Which is actually kind of neat, in that team members in the stands will feel like cheering is strategically important.

[IronicDeadBird]

First thought when I heard that we had an audience selected element was
"Great now we need to scout the audience too."
What I remember happening is I saw the field, and then I started hearing rules and at a certain point I went "Nah too many rules I'll just wait until I have a paper copy."
Even after getting the paper copy I said "nope waiting for Q+A"

[evanperryg]

i mean you cant score if you are touching the carpet....

G39: ROBOTS are prohibited from launching BOULDERS unless they are in contact with the opponent’s TOWER or carpet in the opponent’s COURTYARD, and not in contact with any other carpet.

[FRC Warrior]

I recall seeing teams use those fiberglass rods in 2013 as alignment tools, and they could flex to fit under the pyramid. I don't know if they'd be flexible enough for this, though.

I was thinking more of a pole with springs at the bottom, when you go under the bar, it would flatten against your robot, but afterwards, it would come back up.

[MikLast]

My team was thinking of using treads. Is there any place other than Andymark where we got get treads?

There is a thread on this, no good answers yet though http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=141201

[vigneshv]

Would it be possible and viable to just have your robot stand in front of the human player station and launch boulders into the tower like some teams did with the frisbees in Ultimate Ascent

Nope, that would be against the rules. They state that you must meet the conditions of being in contact with the boulder through a defense as you move the boulder through. You cannot shoot over the defense.

[MaGiC_PiKaChU]

Nope, that would be against the rules. They state that you must meet the conditions of being in contact with the boulder through a defense as you move the boulder through. You cannot shoot over the defense.

Is this also valid for autonomous? Because that would make a 2-ball pretty impossible. (can't wait to see a team prove me wrong) :yikes:

[tindleroot]

Is this also valid for autonomous? Because that would make a 2-ball pretty impossible. (can't wait to see a team prove me wrong) :yikes:

If a rule is stated in the game manual without mention of time period limitations, then the rule is active for the duration of the match, including autonomous. The only way to possibly make a 2 ball auto would be to take your preloaded ball through the Outer Works, score it, go back to the neutral zone, pick up a ball (without going over the center line), go back through the Outer Works again and score it.

Difficult? Yes.
Impossible? No.
Worth it? Maybe only at the highest levels of play.
Will teams do it? I wouldn't be surprised.

[Darth Drew]

I wouldn't be surprised to see a team have their alliance partner drop a ball in the courtyard during autonomous which the first team could pickup and score. Obviously, the circumstances would have to be perfect, but stranger things have happened, especially during eliminations.

[erstech]

Someone please tell me that it's designed so that you can't put the Category C structures in backwards. It might sound silly, but I'd bet my life that someone's gonna put the drawbridge in backwards at some point in week 1.


Good news on that front, if you take a look at the field drawings you'll see that the defenses are all on casters that slot into holes in the defense platforms. The arrangement of the casters will prevent any of the defenses from being installed backwards.

[tindleroot]

As for the cheering to determine the defense, I bet that most refs will select something that hasn't been used much if there is no noticeable difference in the cheering volume. Let's be honest, for the most part the cheering will be equally loud (or quiet) and the ref will just pick one.

[Koko Ed]

FIRST needs to come up with a cool name for the elite field setup crew who will be responsible for setting up the defenses.

[evanperryg]

Good news on that front, if you take a look at the field drawings you'll see that the defenses are all on casters that slot into holes in the defense platforms. The arrangement of the casters will prevent any of the defenses from being installed backwards.

Thank you based kamen

Anyway, the more I think about this game, the more I like it. The audience thing is silly, and the theme feels rather forced, but the concept behind the defenses is clever. Scouting this season doesn't just impact picks and strategies; it has an impact on the way the entire game is played, as opposed to how individual matches are played. The fact that the tower is adaptable to the highest levels of play is really nice, as this is a dynamic that has been missing from most FRC games. I like the way the defenses are organized, as they force you to have a challenge, while still providing a couple easier methods to cross. The options in each group (except D, kind of) feel meaningful, and the differences between them actually impact the gameplay. On top of that, there are a lot of viable ways to play this game, and I expect to see many types of alliances put up ridiculous scores this season, unlike years past where one playstyle was dominant above all others. Every match will be unique, and that in itself is exciting.

[Jaxom]

Worth it? Maybe only at the highest levels of play.
Will teams do it? I wouldn't be surprised.

Points are always good, at every level of play. Unless you're damaging your robot consistently while attempting 2-ball autos, it seems worth it to me. I think there will be plenty of early season matches where 30 points would be the winning score.

I won't be surprised either.

[Kevin Sevcik]

My concern is that scouting data could easily be used to find which defense among the two a particular team is good/bad with. Here's a hypothetical situation: Team A has 19 QP, and is the first seed. Team B has 18 QP, and is the second seed. However, although they aren't terrible, Team A isn't better than anyone else in the top 8, and Team B would much rather be with someone else. Team A, understanding their situation, is willing to scorch to ensure a win in elims. Both teams have one match left in qualifications. Now, let's say that Team B is a big team, and they know that in team A's last match, the audience decides the Group A barriers; their scouts know Team A is good with the portcullis, but terrible with the Cheval de Frise. So, Team B leverages their size, outscreams everyone, and gets the Cheval in A's last match, thereby influencing the outcome of a match they aren't even in.That's not a terribly likely scenario. The audience selection rules note that a selection is for an entire ROUND of matches, not a single match. So one audience selection is going to be good for 10-ish matches. And in your scenario, it will affect Team A and B, since the choice for the last round will be in effect for both their last matches.If a rule is stated in the game manual without mention of time period limitations, then the rule is active for the duration of the match, including autonomous. The only way to possibly make a 2 ball auto would be to take your preloaded ball through the Outer Works, score it, go back to the neutral zone, pick up a ball (without going over the center line), go back through the Outer Works again and score it.

Difficult? Yes.
Impossible? No.
Worth it? Maybe only at the highest levels of play.
Will teams do it? I wouldn't be surprised.Alternate game plan: Start in the COURTYARD as SPY BOT. You'll have a straight shot at the goal, then you just have to get out, grab a boulder, and get back in for the second shot.FIRST needs to come up with a cool name for the elite field setup crew who will be responsible for setting up the defenses.Ed, I'm pretty sure castle designers/builders were called engineers. But maybe it's more glamorous if you say it with a Ye-Olde-English accent?

[cglrcng]

If a rule is stated in the game manual without mention of time period limitations, then the rule is active for the duration of the match, including autonomous. The only way to possibly make a 2 ball auto would be to take your preloaded ball through the Outer Works, score it, go back to the neutral zone, pick up a ball (without going over the center line), go back through the Outer Works again and score it.

Difficult? Yes.
Impossible? No.
Worth it? Maybe only at the highest levels of play.
Will teams do it? I wouldn't be surprised.

__________________________________

Or....Choose to load the boulder into your robot, and choose to move it to the Spybot position (back left hand corner of field facing the driver station/castle wall and guard rail near Spy position box, robot must be contacting both the inner guardrail and the inner castle wall).

Start of auto period robot shoots boulder into high goal 10 points (or low goal 5 points), of Tower, then goes to collect another boulder in a variety of possible ways (though collecting one of those on the MIDLINE is a bit of a tricky thing to do in accordance with the rules and they are the only ones you can seek out at that point unless one of your alliance members just happens to bring theirs across the Defenses and properly expels it at the base of your bot and you pick it up and shoot it in a goal also, it is not impossible task), drives over any of 5 possible Defenses then shoots high or delivers low goal again. I'll bet (a small wager), before the 2016 season is out that someone actually does a 3 boulder Auto. Unless the rules don't actually allow it, since then it won't be attempted.

There are multiple ways a single bot or alliance working together can make the triple auto....and then some.

5 yrs. ago 987 and others were hanging 3 tubes, 4 yrs. ago 3 basketballs, 2 yrs. ago 254 and others 3 ball auto HOT goals....this is 2~5 yrs. of experience later. Today...Better hardware, better electronics, better vision sensing, better coding, same basic though a wee bit different mission....There will be success. You Can COUNT ON IT!

[Koko Ed]

.Ed, I'm pretty sure castle designers/builders were called engineers. But maybe it's more glamorous if you say it with a Ye-Olde-English accent?

I bet we could find something really cool in the Urban dictionary!

[cglrcng]

"Worth it? Maybe only at the highest levels of play."

You have 15 seconds of auto, and nothing is going to happen until the 15 second clock winds down. If you are capable of doing so, at any level of play. And your shot was a high goal scoring in 1~2 seconds. Why on earth would you want to just let your bot sit around for 13~14 seconds doing nothing?

Those that can DO, because they always play at the highest level.

[Koko Ed]

"Worth it? Maybe only at the highest levels of play."

You have 15 seconds of auto, and nothing is going to happen until the 15 second clock winds down. If you are capable of doing so, at any level of play. And your shot was a high goal scoring in 1~2 seconds. Why on earth would you want to just let your bot sit around for 13~14 seconds doing nothing?

Those that can DO, because they always play at the highest level.

Average teams say it can't be done and accept their fate. The great teams will ask why and if they can't do it ask why not and figure out how to get it done.

[Richard Wallace]

I bet we could find something really cool in the Urban dictionary!I think this year's term for all field volunteers is "stewards".

"Wranglers"* might be a good name for stewards who handle the tough tasks quickly and gracefully.

----
*Cambridge University uses this term (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrangler_(University_of_Cambridge)) for its top-scoring math students.

[Foster]

Lords were responsible for management of the lands around a castle. A chamberlain ran the household.

Since the area we are talking about is outside the Stronghold, I suggest Lord.

All hail Lord Koko Ed!

[GaryVoshol]

https://youtu.be/HsvsOI5jV-s?t=45s

Either through a bowling-style throw or pushing in a hole in the top (where it can only fall vertically).

The videos are not rules. In fact, that one has a line that directly contradicts a rule. I don't find anything in the rules that says what action a player has to use to enter a BOULDER through the EMBRASURE.

[GaryVoshol]

FIRST needs to come up with a cool name for the elite field setup crew who will be responsible for setting up the defenses.

The Defenders of the Realm.

[rich2202]

I think this year's term for all field volunteers is "stewards"

Call the RI's "Sourcerers"?

[Koko Ed]

Lords were responsible for management of the lands around a castle. A chamberlain ran the household.

Since the area we are talking about is outside the Stronghold, I suggest Lord.

All hail Lord Koko Ed!

Carry on.

[Koko Ed]

The Defenders of the Realm.

The Order.

[tindleroot]

"Worth it? Maybe only at the highest levels of play."

You have 15 seconds of auto, and nothing is going to happen until the 15 second clock winds down. If you are capable of doing so, at any level of play. And your shot was a high goal scoring in 1~2 seconds. Why on earth would you want to just let your bot sit around for 13~14 seconds doing nothing?

Those that can DO, because they always play at the highest level.

This quote was to indicate that having a two-ball auto, while benefiting your score at any level of play, is not necessary at all during district/regional season since so few teams will probably be doing it. Resources could be better spent putting in some extra cycles, or perhaps breaching a new set of defenses. This will more actively help your score over time (assuming you score enough to make up for your single ball auto). A good team doesn't need a two ball auto to win a regional, therefore putting extended resources towards this at the cost of other features is not necessarily a good idea. At Einstein, or IRI, maybe a 2 ball auto will make the difference between closely matched alliances, though, and it will be necessary. The team has to decide for itself if the advantage is worth it and if they have the resources to make it work.

[Pearl3946]

It's lit!

It truly is LIT! 🔥

[Toby Roy]

can anyone tell me how I post things on this website?

re: I mean like make a new post rather than just replying to one like on this board (Warning! I know nothing about thread sharing websites!)

[Richard Wallace]

can anyone tell me how I post things on this website?
Uh, you just did. :confused:

FAQ (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/faq.php)

[ramune]

This is my first year in FRC but I was really impressed by the video and animation, (though I've seen some other release videos and games since my older brother has been in robotics) looks fun but also pretty challenging haha
Looks like a real hassle to set up too.

Also my first time on chiefdelphi but I've been on a few other forums so I'll just have to get used to the layout! :deadhorse:

[AmoryG]

The rules for selecting defenses is confusing me.

The specific DEFENSES used during each MATCH are selected by a combination of the audience and

the ALLIANCES. One (1) DEFENSE from each of the four (4) DEFENSE groups, A, B, C, and D are on the

FIELD each Qualification and Playoff MATCH.

The way I understand it is that each alliance gets to pick 3 defenses one from each category that the audience is not picking. My question is that are there two full sets of defenses each alliance can choose from? Could both alliances pick the Portcullis from category A or will the blue alliance have to pick the Cheval de Frise from category A if the red alliance picked the Portcullis?

[jaimem263]

Is it legal to have an aditional robot(drone) to the FRC robot?

[rich2202]

Could both alliances pick the Portcullis from category A or will the blue alliance have to pick the Cheval de Frise from category A if the red alliance picked the Portcullis?

Each Alliance will have a full set to pick from. The one caveat is that the Audience picks one, so that set will not be available to either Alliance.

[GaryVoshol]

Is it legal to have an aditional robot(drone) to the FRC robot?

Are you being serious?

I suppose it could be legal, but it sure couldn't go very far. Unless you don't mind collecting a foul and then being disabled because of G18.

[cait.schroeder]

Field Reset Hell.

Definetly

[jaimem263]

Are you being serious?

I suppose it could be legal, but it sure couldn't go very far. Unless you don't mind collecting a foul and then being disabled because of G18.

the drone would be used to hook up the chain onto the bar so its able to lift the robot up byt itself in the last 20 secs of the match

[Jaxom]

Are you being serious?

I suppose it could be legal, but it sure couldn't go very far. Unless you don't mind collecting a foul and then being disabled because of G18.

And then have the fun of watching your drone (A) falling un-powered to the floor, and (B) lying there defenseless while 5, 150 pound, robots drive around the field.

[Boltman]

the drone would be used to hook up the chain onto the bar so its able to lift the robot up byt itself in the last 20 secs of the match

I don't see any violation as long as it goes straight up and remains attached to robot below via the chain at all times. Like to see it that would be some fancy flying.

[Jaxom]

the drone would be used to hook up the chain onto the bar so its able to lift the robot up byt itself in the last 20 secs of the match

Since it's part of the robot, control signals for the drone have to go through the roboRIO. (R56) I think you'd also have to modify the wireless communication to the drone to go through the allowed ports in R60. And R57 only allows one wireless bridge, hard-connected to the roboRIO (R58). So even if you could get the roboRIO-drone control set up I don't know how you could legally do the wireless communication to the drone. Or were you thinking of a tethered drone?

[ratdude747]

Since it's part of the robot, control signals for the drone have to go through the roboRIO. (R56) I think you'd also have to modify the wireless communication to the drone to go through the allowed ports in R60. And R57 only allows one wireless bridge, hard-connected to the roboRIO (R58). So even if you could get the roboRIO-drone control set up I don't know how you could legally do the wireless communication to the drone. Or were you thinking of a tethered drone?

If it's connected by a chain I don't see why a tether would be so far fetched. The bigger challenge would be making it work with legal motors... I'm sure its doable. Practical, maybe.

[team-4480]

the drone would be used to hook up the chain onto the bar so its able to lift the robot up byt itself in the last 20 secs of the match

That would be difficult/near impossible to stabilize the drone to be able to not hit the tower considering it wouldn't have GPS or anything to keep it steady.

[MikLast]

If it's connected by a chain I don't see why a tether would be so far fetched. The bigger challenge would be making it work with legal motors... I'm sure its doable. Practical, maybe.

Looks BA if completed, Very much so.

[Vamorys]

With this game, There are so many options for robots. If you don't get what I'm saying, Let me paint you a picture. Last year there was only 2 types of robots that we saw at competitions. One that collected totes and stacked it inside of itself and one that stacked it using 2 arms and such. I'm glad there are so many different possibilities for the robots this year. It'll make competitions a bit more interesting.

[rich2202]

Regarding a drone: I would read the manual carefully about allowable motors. Also, power might be an issue if gets power from a battery.

[Jaxom]

If it's connected by a chain I don't see why a tether would be so far fetched. The bigger challenge would be making it work with legal motors... I'm sure its doable. Practical, maybe.

<Kicks self> Doh! Although since there is a computer in a drone, maybe they could claim it's a COTS computing device, and the propellers certainly are fans. :rolleyes:

Now the question (assuming you accept the absurdity of a drone as a computing device) is how much modification do you get to do before a device is no longer COTS? Adding a tether seems like a pretty big mod. Or can you buy a tethered drone?

[evanperryg]

Are you being serious?

I suppose it could be legal, but it sure couldn't go very far. Unless you don't mind collecting a foul and then being disabled because of G18.

Robot rules say the only telecom usable on the robot is the radio. If you were going to do something g like this, it'd have to have all signals transferred through the radio. The drone would also have to be powered by the main battery.

[YooperTrooperER]

Once the defenses have all been "Weakened" do you still have to go through them to get to the opponents castle? Or can you use the secret passageway?

[engunneer]

Once the defenses have all been "Weakened" do you still have to go through them to get to the opponents castle? Or can you use the secret passageway?

I don't see any caveats to the secret passage rules that allow it to become an access path once the outer works are weakened.

[alopex_rex]

Once the defenses have all been "Weakened" do you still have to go through them to get to the opponents castle? Or can you use the secret passageway?

Uh, no. Check G20, there's no exceptions.

[YooperTrooperER]

Uh, no. Check G20, there's no exceptions.

So is G20 implying you can use it to get back to the neutral zone?

[plnyyanks]

So is G20 implying you can use it to get back to the neutral zone?

No.
ROBOTS may only enter or exit their opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE from/to the opponent’s COURTYARD. A ROBOT is considered to be within the SECRET PASSAGE once the only carpet the ROBOT is in contact with is the carpet inside the SECRET PASSAGE.
Violation: FOUL. If repeated, TECH FOUL

You can only go between the SECRET PASSAGE and COURTYARD, not the NEUTRAL ZONE. You can, however, enter/exit your own SECRET PASSAGE however/wherever you want.

[YooperTrooperER]

No.


You can only go between the SECRET PASSAGE and COURTYARD, not the NEUTRAL ZONE. You can, however, enter/exit your own SECRET PASSAGE however/wherever you want.

OK thank you. That rule seems a little more complicated than it needs to be.

[tindleroot]

OK thank you. That rule seems a little more complicated than it needs to be.

The rule makes the opponents' secret passage useless to be in, but prevents penalties from accidentally driving into their passage when in the courtyard. After all, with limited visibility it is possible especially for driver stations (particularly left of the castle from drivers' perspective) it would be easy to drive in it.

[corriii_16]

This game definitely makes up for the lack of excitement last year. #bestGameYet ::rtm::

[MarcD79]

Field Reset Hell.
Yes I know Pete!

[FireAmpersand]

Just to let you guys know, the Portcullis or "Iron Gate" is a clear solid polycarbonate sheet with black lines painted on. So that forces you to lift from the bottom rather than in the middle. Can't wait to play in this game, looks challenging yet fun. ^_^

[marissa1215]

I think that there is a lot to thing about in terms of strategy and just the design itself, but if you are able to build a multi-tasking bot things will go very well! Also I feel bad for field reset, recycle rush bothered my and that was just totes!

Team 2729 Storm Robotics!

[TheDoctor_1]

This has to be the most exciting (and complicated) game I've seen in my time in FRC. You have to really understand the ALL the game rules, or else you're going to wind up in situations you're not prepared for.