Flying?

[SPORK_Guy]

So, we are searching for a rule in the manual that specifically forbids creating a robot that has the ability to fly....my better judgement says that this is a bad idea, but I cannot find a rule against it. If you have found a rule please let me know, for it could change our entire design :)

[ATannahill]

The closest I have seen is G45.

[MikLast]

So, we are searching for a rule in the manual that specifically forbids creating a robot that has the ability to fly....my better judgement says that this is a bad idea, but I cannot find a rule against it. If you have found a rule please let me know, for it could change our entire design :)

Rule G17 says the robot cant be higher than 4ft 6in, may be it hard to keep within that.

[ATannahill]

Rule G17 says the robot cant be higher than 4ft 6in, may be it hard to keep within that.
Read the blue box of G17.

[asid61]

So, we are searching for a rule in the manual that specifically forbids creating a robot that has the ability to fly....my better judgement says that this is a bad idea, but I cannot find a rule against it. If you have found a rule please let me know, for it could change our entire design :)

One could interpret G17 as not allowing it, but then it does allow for angling and the like...
interesting observation. Given the nature of the game and the new availibility of the 775pro, I could see an ultralight robot being made to fly. It would probably draw too much current though, especially given the weight of the battery and control system.

EDIT: just ran some quick numbers. You would need many, many 775pros to do anything. Each motor produces perhaps 1.4-3lbs of thrust, 1.6lbs of which goes to the weight of the motor itself (which weighs 0.8lbs, leaving between -0.2 and 1.4lbs thrust for the other parts of the robot. Chassis + battery + control system will run at least 30lbs, so you will need at minimum 21 775pros, not including any manipulators you might want to attach.

[GaryVoshol]

You'd need to fly low if you want to score points for CROSSING the DEFENSES.

[orangemoore]

Good luck making a robot fly with the 13 lb battery we use.

[ATannahill]

You'd need to fly low if you want to score points for CROSSING the DEFENSES.
How do you figure? The requirement is to "traverses the DEFENSE such that its BUMPERS go fully between the adjacent SHIELDS/GUARDRAIL". The outer works have infinite height.

[ice.berg]

Good luck making a robot fly with the 13 lb battery we use.

plus bumpers and control system!

[AndyBare]

G44 ... a ROBOT “leapfrogging” or “spider climbing” across a DEFENSE by applying force to the SHIELDS and lifting itself over the DEFENSE is a
violation of this rule

Leapfrogging is pretty much temporarily flying. It's mentioned in the rules, and pretty much says if you do it, do it without putting pressure on the defense shields. Just a thought.

[greekfire100]

So, we are searching for a rule in the manual that specifically forbids creating a robot that has the ability to fly....my better judgement says that this is a bad idea, but I cannot find a rule against it. If you have found a rule please let me know, for it could change our entire design :)

I see no rule against it, and I say if you can find a way to create a flying robot with the parameters given, more power to you

[AndyBare]

Also,
G17 ROBOT height, as measured when it’s resting normally on a flat floor, may not exceed 4 ft. 6 in. This is saying that one edge/corner of the robot can be more than 4'6" off the ground, as long as the height of the robot doesn't exceed 4'6". This is also shown in the rule diagram.

[GaryVoshol]

How do you figure? The requirement is to "traverses the DEFENSE such that its BUMPERS go fully between the adjacent SHIELDS/GUARDRAIL". The outer works have infinite height.

See the sub-section on "Shields" in part 2 of the manual - they're only 2 feet tall.

[Xanawatt]

Also,
G17 ROBOT height, as measured when it’s resting normally on a flat floor, may not exceed 4 ft. 6 in. This is saying that one edge/corner of the robot can be more than 4'6" off the ground, as long as the height of the robot doesn't exceed 4'6". This is also shown in the rule diagram.

He's got a point. The rules do allow for that this year!

[BotDesigner]

He's got a point. The rules do allow for that this year!

Yeah, lets just let 148 work that one out, it would be a nice successor to Tumbleweed.

[amesmich]

So long as the top of your bumpers are not more than 12" from the floor..... Rules out the advantage of flying.

[pilleya]

The amount of thrust needed to lift the the control system+battery, would be greater than the current the battery can provide, even without the fuses and main breaker being a problem. Lifting even the minimum components would require at least 10kw+. Which is more than the battery can output. This would be possible with brushless outrunner motors and Lipo batteries( RC plane equipment), but not possible with allowed parts.

[Ian Curtis]

I've always thought it would be a fun off-season project to do a fixed wing FRC legal airplane. Based on the thrust folks got out of propellers in 2009 you could definitely make it work, but the takeoff performance to circle within an FRC regulation field would certainly be... challenging to say the least.

It reminds me of an exceptional Dave Lavery quote (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=316804#post316804).

The rules also never explicitly say that I can't park a Boeing 747 right in the middle of the play field and use it as an obstacle for the other alliance. But after a little thought, something tells me that I probably should not do it.

[bjtheone]

Read the blue box of G17.

G17 states that measurements are made with robot resting on the floor. Does not disallow flying or leaping.

G44 states that you cannot use the SHIELDS to cross a DEFENSE.

Leaping or flying over the DEFENSE in the space between the SHIELDS, does not violate either of these rules.I would love to see it done and suspect that flying is an almost impossible engineering challenge, but leaping...

R22 is similar to previous years and we have had all sorts of climbing and scaling operations that take the bumpers away form the floor. I would think that R22 is enforced like G17, with measurements made in a static configuration resting on the floor.

[pilleya]

I've always thought it would be a fun off-season project to do a fixed wing FRC legal airplane.

A fixed wing could probably work but, would require a big flight surface. Perhaps the control system with router, would not have sufficient range to comfortably fly the aircraft without risk of loss of communication.

[FRC Warrior]

Maybe G1?

[AndyBare]

So long as the top of your bumpers are not more than 12" from the floor..... Rules out the advantage of flying.

R22 BUMPERS must be located entirely within the BUMPER ZONE, which is the volume contained
between two virtual horizontal planes, 4 in. above the floor and 12 in. above the floor, in reference to the ROBOT standing normally on a flat floor. BUMPERS do not have to be parallel to the floor.

Leaping is still a-go.

[SPORK_Guy]

See the sub-section on "Shields" in part 2 of the manual - they're only 2 feet tall.

That doesn't necessarily mean the robot can't go over it, they just have to go between them. At least that's what we are rolling with.

[apm4242]

Not totally on point but related - What about a tethered flying minibot to place a hook on the tower rungs?

[Boltman]

Crossing: "Traverses the DEFENSE such that its BUMPERS go fully between the adjacent SHIELDS/GUARDRAIL"

So unless the drone IS the entire robot perimeter with bumpers (16 x 16 worth minimum)
So a drone without all the bumpers would not do anything as no damage or crossing would occur.

If that same drone can score boulders already in opponent courtyard then perhaps its viable (without bumpers)

That could be this years modular:

A main bot with BUMPERS and ability to deliver balls cross defenses and can handle most maybe even the low bar with ball.

A drone that separately fly's over field scoring opponent boulders somehow and can grab other boulders and deliver them to main bot to cross then when on opponent courtyard reacquires the boulders and scores the only defense they cannot cross over is low bar.

At the end it would have to either land on the main body or contact it somehow.

If a team pulls this off cool.

[StanMan2000]

If I remember right, your bumper has to be 1 inch off the ground. If you can make a flying robot with 38" propellers and a 13lb battery which hovers one inch off the ground with full sized bumpers, (that is clearly designed to play the game) I don't think FIRST will stop you.

[asid61]

If I remember right, your bumper has to be 1 inch off the ground. If you can make a flying robot with 38" propellers and a 13lb battery which hovers one inch off the ground with full sized bumpers, (that is clearly designed to play the game) I don't think FIRST will stop you.

Read farther up; bumpers don't stop you.

[Karibou]

If I remember right, your bumper has to be 1 inch off the ground.

1" off the ground is not the definition of the BUMPER ZONE this year - check the rulebook for the exact details (R22, also quoted by AndyBare a few posts above).

[SPORK_Guy]

R22 BUMPERS must be located entirely within the BUMPER ZONE, which is the volume contained
between two virtual horizontal planes, 4 in. above the floor and 12 in. above the floor, in reference to the ROBOT standing normally on a flat floor. BUMPERS do not have to be parallel to the floor.

Leaping is still a-go.

So I guess that if the robot's starting position has bumpers in the mandated volume then it should be fine....

[Josho499#4613]

So, we are searching for a rule in the manual that specifically forbids creating a robot that has the ability to fly....my better judgement says that this is a bad idea, but I cannot find a rule against it. If you have found a rule please let me know, for it could change our entire design :)

Well I will certainly watching your regional

[HolyHacker335]

I see no rule against it, and I say if you can find a way to create a flying robot with the parameters given, more power to you

You guys crack me up. ::safety::