Sharing information - not a good idea?

[bduddy]

In past FRC games, most teams have shared information about their own robots fairly freely with other teams, both to assist scouting and just as a general courtesy. However, in this game, alliances have a direct ability, through choosing defenses, to affect how difficult it is for the other alliance to gain points. Therefore, if I was in the pits and heard "What defenses can your robot cross?" or even "What does that arm do?" early on Friday, I'd think twice before answering... especially if I glanced at the schedule and saw that the team asking was a future opponent.

Any thoughts? Am I just overly competitive, or is this going to be a real issue?

[Purpose]

That is a fair concern, but I think it's also important to note that information on what your robot can and cannot cross can be useful when its time to pick teams as well. High seeded teams will likely pick robots that complement them by crossing defenses that may give them issue.

[Ian Curtis]

In past FRC games, most teams have shared information about their own robots fairly freely with other teams, both to assist scouting and just as a general courtesy. However, in this game, alliances have a direct ability, through choosing defenses, to affect how difficult it is for the other alliance to gain points. Therefore, if I was in the pits and heard "What defenses can your robot cross?" or even "What does that arm do?" early on Friday, I'd think twice before answering... especially if I glanced at the schedule and saw that the team asking was a future opponent.

Any thoughts? Am I just overly competitive, or is this going to be a real issue?

I don't think the answers to pit scouting questions have ever been particularly well correlated with robot ability. It seems the way psychology works your best match somehow becomes what you remember as average. Folks don't do it to be devious, they just honestly don't know how well their robot actually performs.

What happens on the field is the truth, everything else is subject to be Best Available Data.

[mockingod]

It's hard to decide sometimes because of what you said, they might be your opponent, and you don't want to give them the answer, because they might engineer a solution better than you! Right?

Just think of it differently. I think of it as if they're going to be my ALLIANCE members in the future. What happens if in the match, they go into the secret passage from the neutral zone holding a boulder? And they asked that same question and you could've answered? You guys get a penalty for it!

Not only can you think of it that way, you should just imagine they're on your team as well. The entire community ideally is friends with each other. Almost everyone is willing to help one another, because the ultimate goal of robotics is to learn and pass that knowledge down. Think of it from a moral standpoint.

Helping people and answering their questions is also a good way to meet others and make friends with other teams.

[bduddy]

It's hard to decide sometimes because of what you said, they might be your opponent, and you don't want to give them the answer, because they might engineer a solution better than you! Right?

Just think of it differently. I think of it as if they're going to be my ALLIANCE members in the future. What happens if in the match, they go into the secret passage from the neutral zone holding a boulder? And they asked that same question and you could've answered? You guys get a penalty for it!

Not only can you think of it that way, you should just imagine they're on your team as well. The entire community ideally is friends with each other. Almost everyone is willing to help one another, because the ultimate goal of robotics is to learn and pass that knowledge down. Think of it from a moral standpoint.

Helping people and answering their questions is also a good way to meet others and make friends with other teams.I wasn't talking about not helping other teams accomplish something, which I don't expect to happen this year. I was talking about not telling other teams what your robot can do, because other teams might use that information against you directly.

[Ichlieberoboter]

Even if they can use it somewhat against you during qualifications, it's going to be important during alliance selections. Our team is planning on making info on what our robot can do readily available so that we have a better chance of getting picked when alliance selections comes around.

[rich2202]

Maybe the strategy is: On Day 1 of qualifications, tell scouting teams you will post the information on Day 2.

That way, you get one day of competition with the other teams not knowing. On day 2 interested teams will be able to get the info that may not have been revealed during day 1 of qualifications.

[JoshWilson]

even though you're giving away information, you can ask them the same thing too, which kinda balances things out. Also, withholding information could easily look bad for you and your team's image, but after your first few matches, the team that asked can just watch you, along with everyone else, and get the information anyway.

[bjtheone]

In past FRC games, most teams have shared information about their own robots fairly freely with other teams, both to assist scouting and just as a general courtesy. However, in this game, alliances have a direct ability, through choosing defenses, to affect how difficult it is for the other alliance to gain points. Therefore, if I was in the pits and heard "What defenses can your robot cross?" or even "What does that arm do?" early on Friday, I'd think twice before answering... especially if I glanced at the schedule and saw that the team asking was a future opponent.

Any thoughts? Am I just overly competitive, or is this going to be a real issue?

This is true every year. It is just that this year has a direct opportunity to use this information against you in a easy and direct way(pick a defence you cannot cross). On the flip side this information can be used to plan game strategy, and alliance partner picking, which may be more important (ie. we can cross A & B and might look for robots capable of C & D, if breaching was part of our game strategy).

We for sure, and I suspect most other teams, scout for information to plan how to play with, and how to play against teams. In the qualification round you are going to play with and against most teams. More importantly in the elimination round unless you are an alliance captain, pit scouting interaction can play significant role in getting selected.

Plus, an examination of you robot will tell a lot about your capabilities anyways.

We always answer questions to the best of our abilities.

[hardcopi]

My guess is that we will end up just being totally up front. Not telling the truth will only help in your first few matches, then the cat will be out of the bag. If you don't tell the truth then besides not being GP it will also make them less likely to pick you if they can't trust you.

Now I might be saying that because it is still early enough in the build season that we are planning on being able to go through any obstacle. I might be singing a significantly different tune come bag day. :D

[EricLeifermann]

Only question 2826 asks in the pit when it comes to scouting is, "Can I take a picture of your robot?".

Last year we also asked if teams were willing to be cheesecaked but only at champs did we ask that.

Teams are going to tell you what they designed their robot to do not what it actually does. On field performance is all that matters to us. So you might not be willing to say what defenses your robot can cross in the pits but you'll tell me every match you're in anyways.

[philso]

In past FRC games, most teams have shared information about their own robots fairly freely with other teams, both to assist scouting and just as a general courtesy. However, in this game, alliances have a direct ability, through choosing defenses, to affect how difficult it is for the other alliance to gain points. Therefore, if I was in the pits and heard "What defenses can your robot cross?" or even "What does that arm do?" early on Friday, I'd think twice before answering... especially if I glanced at the schedule and saw that the team asking was a future opponent.

Any thoughts? Am I just overly competitive, or is this going to be a real issue?

I don't feel that this year is any different from previous years. What people are sharing are concepts, not detailed design drawings and code. For example, in 2013, many people emulated the concept of the small-wheel shooter. Some were very successful. Some were not successful.


Only question 2826 asks in the pit when it comes to scouting is, "Can I take a picture of tour robot?".

Last year we also asked if teams were willing to be cheesecaked but only at champs did we ask that.

Teams are going to tell you what they designed their robot to do not what it actually does. On field performance is all that matters to us. So you might not be willing to say what defenses your robot can cross in the pits but you'll tell me every match you're in anyways.

My older son used to use his commanding presence and asked some teams "what are your robot's weaknesses?" The funny thing is that most of them made an honest effort to answer (maybe not accurately, as Eric notes).

[sclancy1647]

In my personal opinion, it is always helpful to know your own strengths and weaknesses. Especially if your are in a competition with say 2-3 powerhouse teams, they want someone who can complement them or their strategy. I would still be giving out as much information as possible, to not only help others, but to help yourself.

Sean Clancy
Iron Devils Robotics FRC team 1647
Drive Coach and Management team lead

[courtney.john28]

At first glance I had the same thought, because unless you can flawlessly complete all the defenses, your opponents will always choose your weakest defense. But I also remembered last year's litter agreement, which was essentially working together to get a higher score for both alliances. This year I think alliances should work similarly so they can get the 2 ranking points. Because if two teams work together so that they both get the extra two points then the worst point value you can get is 2 rp's and the highest is 4 rp's (assuming the plan goes succesfully)

[alextried]

I don't think the answers to pit scouting questions have ever been particularly well correlated with robot ability. It seems the way psychology works your best match somehow becomes what you remember as average. Folks don't do it to be devious, they just honestly don't know how well their robot actually performs.

What happens on the field is the truth, everything else is subject to be Best Available Data.

Absolutely. A robot may perform better or worse than the pit/drive team anticipate on the field, and data you personally collect tends to be more accurate than what a team may tell you in the pit (not usually their fault). This is true every year. Personally, I like to speak to every team anyway, whether or not we are in a future match with or against them, because even if we never play together our robots and drive teams may complement each other enough to form a successful alliance in playoffs.

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

Maybe the strategy is: On Day 1 of qualifications, tell scouting teams you will post the information on Day 2.

That way, you get one day of competition with the other teams not knowing. On day 2 interested teams will be able to get the info that may not have been revealed during day 1 of qualifications.

I wouldn't be opposed to this idea, regarding Outer Works. As a Drive Team, I'm going to want to get my data from their Drive Team and our field scouts anyway.

[MrJohnston]

I'll answer this based on what I'd be willing to share - and when - to meet the needs of our team....

* I figure that, right now, I'll share very little. We have a lot of functionality decisions to finalize yet, so that it's not likely that I could be accurate anyhow. Besides, if we come up with an especially clever idea we'd rather keep it quiet until other teams are far enough into the design process to mimic it. What would I share now? It looks like our primary purpose will be to damage defenses. We've also agreed that we'll be able to acquire a boulder and have room on the bot to put stickers for our sponsors. Everything else is on the table as we need to do some rough prototyping to see what combinations of options are available.

* Around week 4, it will be too late for most/all teams to completely change their designs and actually create a strong robot. Those with that capability will likely already have something as good as our bot (or better) anyhow.... So, I'd share the general concepts of what we can do and likely share some specifics. However, I'd keep a few things under wraps - such as which defenses we can most/least effectively damage.

* We aim to win our first district event. I'm certain we can be a team captain and will be in a position to do the choosing. So, we won't have to worry much about advertising our abilities. So, we'll share, throughout, information about our general functions, yet have some things kept quiet. (We typically have multiple autonomous routines, for instance. One is our "go-to" that we anticipate using most of the time. The others will be used in specialized situations - or when we need to do something unexpected.) Most years, we have a routine or two we never use. When we've been to Champs, we've had routines we've used for the very first time in eliminations.

* After our first district event, we'll be much more open. Teams that are really competitive will have already studied the videos on what we can/cannot do. Teams that are less competitive, well, are less competitive. Sharing openly with them, will help them the following season. Of course, we might have some functions that we are still keeping quiet at this point.


* NW Champs or Worlds? It will really depend on our self-assessment on how we stack up against everybody else.....

[Mr. Tatorscout]

Maybe the strategy is: On Day 1 of qualifications, tell scouting teams you will post the information on Day 2.

That way, you get one day of competition with the other teams not knowing. On day 2 interested teams will be able to get the info that may not have been revealed during day 1 of qualifications.

FIRST of all, The problem is when your alliance partners want to work up a strategy in advance, they can't until you are in the queue because you haven't told them anything.
Second, most pit scouting happens on the first day because once competitions start, the scouts are in the stands...so now you're making the record keeper beg kids to go back out and scout that last robot that wouldn't talk to them before.
Third, you run the risk of not being seen as a team player and get black-balled. "Which team was that again? OH, THEM!" How easy a team is to work with is one of the factors in picking an alliance partner.
Fourth, Gracious Professionalism...

[alopex_rex]

This would be more of an issue to think about if anything anyone ever said to pit scouters had any resemblance to the truth.

As another poster put it, it's not that anyone lies to pit scouters, it's just their answers are too unrealistically optimistic to mean much. I'm sure lots of teams will say that, in theory, they can do every defense, and then spend their entire first match stuck on the rocky terrain.

[SteveGPage]

This would be more of an issue to think about if anything anyone ever said to pit scouters had any resemblance to the truth.

As another poster put it, it's not that anyone lies to pit scouters, it's just their answers are too unrealistically optimistic to mean much. I'm sure lots of teams will say that, in theory, they can do every defense, and then spend their entire first match stuck on the rocky terrain.

Well said! I have my "new-bees" (rookies) do the pit scouting. I do it so they get used to the idea of talking to other teams, hopefully building some relationships with other teams, and to ask robot specific questions - so they start to learn robot terminology. I had one come back and exclaim, "I know what a CIM looks like!"

From their scouting report, I need a good picture. Also maybe, what type of drivetrain they have. Everything else is usually an overly optimistic analysis of what they think they can do on a perfect day, if the laws of physics are relaxed, and they suddenly learn to optimize their performance. My match scouting is a much better indicator of what they really can do, not what is said in the pits.

[abigailthefox]

I don't think the answers to pit scouting questions have ever been particularly well correlated with robot ability. It seems the way psychology works your best match somehow becomes what you remember as average. Folks don't do it to be devious, they just honestly don't know how well their robot actually performs.

What happens on the field is the truth, everything else is subject to be Best Available Data.

Pit scouting is never very useful...
"Oh yeah, we can make two six stacks! And cap them!"
*match data indicates 1 5-stack on a good day...*

Honestly, it's in the spirit of FIRST to cooperate, and at the end of the day, teams want to be chosen for good alliances, so they'll probably talk up their abilities at least a little. Withholding everything does make you a little overly competitive/borderline paranoid, and honestly when it comes to alliance selection, unless you're a very strong team, it will hurt you more than help you.

[The other Gabe]

This is really not a good idea, really, especially if you happen to be a team that is going to be picked, instead of picking. as a scouting lead, I did base my choices at least partially off of which teams were honest, friendly, and willing to admit their flaws as well as their strengths (say there's two teams, nearly equal in how they compliment my team's robot, and I'm the 6th seeded robot. I'm gonna pick the team that knows where it is weak, because then we can make a strategy around that).

a team is gonna find out your weaknesses whether you want them to or not. better to be honest, both in the respect of gracious professionalism, and because it makes you look better.

Maybe the strategy is: On Day 1 of qualifications, tell scouting teams you will post the information on Day 2.

That way, you get one day of competition with the other teams not knowing. On day 2 interested teams will be able to get the info that may not have been revealed during day 1 of qualifications.

Pit scouting is also used by strategists to figure out strategies within the team, and they dont really have time to hunt you down before their next match. this would be really annoying.

[blaze8902]

The team I work with has always been far more concerned with facilitating the long term success of the students in the area in a sustainable manner. Our priorities lie in helping everyone we can to achieve their potential.

That said, we care more about helping other teams grow by sharing our designs and resources, and increasing our own success through cooperation with our alliance.

This year we plan on continuing our tradition of maintaining as high a level of transparency as is feasible.

I know many other teams have a different, more competitive, philosophy that differs from our focus on cooperation and provision of resources and information.

To each their own, as long as students are learning and having fun you can approach FIRST however you like, but I believe this year we will maintain transparency.

As a side note, I do find it interesting that our method of pit scouting differs from a few teams who have spoken up in this thread. Rather than newer students, we generally have a mix of students who scout. We like to have mechanically experienced students teach others how to identify a robots capabilities visually, with a focus on asking other teams how their mechanisms work and what design decisions they made. We've found this to be more informative and educational on several fronts.

[Chief Hedgehog]

I really think that Pit-Scouting is more about gaining the general 'feel' of a team. Most of the scouting (at least the best info) comes from scouting teams on the field.

[blaze8902]

Agreed. If anything it's an opportunity to figure out what we're going to look out for in the stands.

Speaking with the students and looking at their robots is more of a learning experience than something used in the match.

That said, definitives like "can it shoot" or "What kind of drive train does it use?" can be answered, while questions like "How well does it say shoot?" is best saved for the stands.

[evanperryg]

In past FRC games, most teams have shared information about their own robots fairly freely with other teams, both to assist scouting and just as a general courtesy. However, in this game, alliances have a direct ability, through choosing defenses, to affect how difficult it is for the other alliance to gain points. Therefore, if I was in the pits and heard "What defenses can your robot cross?" or even "What does that arm do?" early on Friday, I'd think twice before answering... especially if I glanced at the schedule and saw that the team asking was a future opponent.

Any thoughts? Am I just overly competitive, or is this going to be a real issue?

On my team, pit scouting data is really only used as a filter on the quantitative data. Since we'll also be tracking what defenses teams actually cross in their matches, we'll be picking defenses that team struggles with, regardless of what that team tells the pit scouters.

[jajabinx124]

I really think that Pit-Scouting is more about gaining the general 'feel' of a team. Most of the scouting (at least the best info) comes from scouting teams on the field.

To me pit scouting is more about getting data that stand scouting can't collect, but yes the "best" or most useful information comes from stand scouting.

[Tom Line]

In past FRC games, most teams have shared information about their own robots fairly freely with other teams, both to assist scouting and just as a general courtesy. However, in this game, alliances have a direct ability, through choosing defenses, to affect how difficult it is for the other alliance to gain points. Therefore, if I was in the pits and heard "What defenses can your robot cross?" or even "What does that arm do?" early on Friday, I'd think twice before answering... especially if I glanced at the schedule and saw that the team asking was a future opponent.

Any thoughts? Am I just overly competitive, or is this going to be a real issue?

We've found pre-scouting to be a waste of time, except for taking pictures. Often teams inflate their own abilities or give inaccurate statements. That's not a negative on teams: it's just that they see that they completed some task in practice and decide they can do it in a real match. Or sometimes they just have a overly optimistic view of how good their robot might be.

If they don't do it in a match, then we assume they can't do it. Unless it's a team you know well and who has proven to be trustworthy in assessing their own abilities.

[Akash Rastogi]

Well said! I have my "new-bees" (rookies) do the pit scouting. I do it so they get used to the idea of talking to other teams, hopefully building some relationships with other teams, and to ask robot specific questions - so they start to learn robot terminology. I had one come back and exclaim, "I know what a CIM looks like!"

From their scouting report, I need a good picture. Also maybe, what type of drivetrain they have. Everything else is usually an overly optimistic analysis of what they think they can do on a perfect day, if the laws of physics are relaxed, and they suddenly learn to optimize their performance. My match scouting is a much better indicator of what they really can do, not what is said in the pits.

It also helps new students learn to smell BS from a mile away. :rolleyes:

As Ian and Tom Line said, pit scouting is pretty useless for anything other than a nice picture and looking at what drive/gearing/motors a team has. My old scouts barely ever even asked questions, other than "can we take a photo?"

[Edxu]

While I'll never claim to be absolutely correct, I believe that it's correct to be honest and as realistic as possible with any scout that shows up at your pit, because it's a good measure of reliability and communication.

(2014 example) If a pit rep or team member tells you that they hit their 2-ball Hot Auto every single match, and scouting data shows that they only hit 1 of 2 balls, and only 30% hot, it shows that either that team member isn't watching matches and is misinformed about their team's performance, denoting lack of communication, or that they want to sway your scouting data a little bit in your favor, which may cause many problems if they don't at least semi-reliably deliver on their claim.

Last year, during the Recycle Rush Championships, I probably told 10-15 teams that we had matches with upfront that we were putting on a new mechanism, and we would either be crippled or of very little scoring use. I noticed that the response was much more positive, and our alliance partners were very gracious in adjusting the strategy to lessen the load on us. On the other hand, one of the most frustrating things that I've had to deal with during FRC is when an alliance partner tells us that they're able to do X task and would like to do it, in order to impress scouts in the stands, and after assuring us of their capability, they miss the shots, possibly costing us the match.

My opinion is that teams should try and be honest about their capabilities at competition.
Also, where's the fun in a game if the opposing alliance doesn't give you hard defenses? There are few better feelings than overcoming targeted defense.

[The other Gabe]

We've found pre-scouting to be a waste of time, except for taking pictures. Often teams inflate their own abilities or give inaccurate statements. That's not a negative on teams: it's just that they see that they completed some task in practice and decide they can do it in a real match. Or sometimes they just have a overly optimistic view of how good their robot might be.

you just gotta have a good bullcrap detector :p ... when I did pit scouting, I usually scouted the newer teams, who have a tendency to do this (just from lack of experience, not putting them down in the slightest), because I was always interested in how well they were able to evaluate themselves. I'm not sure how well that factored into the scouting data, but I found it interesting :v

Last year, during the Recycle Rush Championships, I probably told 10-15 teams that we had matches with upfront that we were putting on a new mechanism, and we would either be crippled or of very little scoring use.

I remember you guys saying that to me, actually. it was nice to get an upfront, honest answer