View Full Version : G11 and G28 Technicalities
The Ginger
11-01-2016, 17:48
My team is woundering if camping a secret passage whlie your alliance scores 6+ goals would be legal. on one hand the opposing alliance doesnt HAVE to release the boulders ,but on the other hand you are kind of making them give you a boulder or risk getting a foul.
You have to enter and exit from their courtyard, and you have to be extremely careful to not contact an opposing robot and draw a G21 penalty. Beyond that, there's no reason it wouldn't be legal.
I believe that is absolutely legal. Just make sure you don't touch their robots or else you will get a tech foul.
FRANKlybored
11-01-2016, 17:55
My team is woundering
There seem to be so many woundering people on this forum. PLEASE, I repeat, PLEASE seek medical attention if you or anyone on your team is woundering.
An alliance has right-of-way in their own secret passage.
If you are blocking it and they want through, you need to get out of the way or take a tech-foul (G21)
G28 refers to the courtyard, not the passage. If you're in their passage during the final 20, they can hit you. And you'd get a foul.
An alliance has right-of-way in their own secret passage.
If you are blocking it and they want through, you need to get out of the way or take a tech-foul (G21)Says who? In my view that would be a violation of G11 on them.
Please refer to actual rules to support your viewpoints, not a general idea of how you think things should be. Not that you're the only offender...
Says who? In my view that would be a violation of G11 on them.
Please refer to actual rules to support your viewpoints, not a general idea of how you think things should be. Not that you're the only offender...
G21 A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing ROBOTS. Violation: TECH FOUL
If red team, in their own secret passage decides to use the secret passage to get to the neutral zone, they have that right. If on the way to the neutral zone they encounter a blue alliance member that is contacting the carpet of the red secret passage, that blue alliance member gets a technical foul.
THAT is the rule. I am sorry if I simplified that to "right-of-way" and caused confusion.
Also, I do understand G11.
The Ginger
11-01-2016, 18:22
We got 2 more ?'s on this subject. First, can u roll a boulder from your robot into the courtyard from the secret passage, or do you have to have possession of the boulder and personally take it into the courtyard yourself. or could u deflect it into the courtyard? ::rtm::
We got 2 more ?'s on this subject. First, can u roll a boulder from your robot into the courtyard from the secret passage, or do you have to have possession of the boulder and personally take it into the courtyard yourself. or could u deflect it into the courtyard? ::rtm::
G40 A ROBOT may not cause a BOULDER to move from the NEUTRAL ZONE into the opponent’s
COURTYARD unless:
A. the ROBOT contacts the BOULDER within OUTER WORKS, and
B. the ROBOT completes its CROSSING (i.e. doesn’t completely back out of the OUTER WORKS into the NEUTRAL ZONE)
G40 A ROBOT may not cause a BOULDER to move from the NEUTRAL ZONE into the opponent’s
COURTYARD unless:
A. the ROBOT contacts the BOULDER within OUTER WORKS, and
B. the ROBOT completes its CROSSING (i.e. doesn’t completely back out of the OUTER WORKS into the NEUTRAL ZONE)
I think he means transferring a boulder from the opponent's secret passage to the opponent's courtyard.
G21 A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing ROBOTS. Violation: TECH FOUL
Wouldn't it be easy to draw a penalty if you are defending in your own zone. If someone is in your own secret passage and your were defending in your courtyard you could just go hit them and they would get a tech foul right? That seems like an easy way to draw penalties.
G21 A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing ROBOTS. Violation: TECH FOUL
If red team, in their own secret passage decides to use the secret passage to get to the neutral zone, they have that right. If on the way to the neutral zone they encounter a blue alliance member that is contacting the carpet of the red secret passage, that blue alliance member gets a technical foul.
THAT is the rule. I am sorry if I simplified that to "right-of-way" and caused confusion.
Also, I do understand G11.No, that's not the rule. Please specify how "they have that right" or how the red alliance can contact the blue robot to cause a foul without violating G11.
AndyBare
11-01-2016, 19:03
G11 states that Strategies aimed solely at forcing the opposing ALLIANCE to violate a rule are not in the spirit of FIRST Robotics Competition and not allowed. Rule violations forced in this manner will not result in an assignment of a penalty to the targeted ALLIANCE.
Violation: FOUL. If egregious or repeated, YELLOW CARD
G21 states "a ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing ROBOTS." This is where the right is given to alliance members to have priority in their own secret passage. There is no discussion in the rule of who must engage contact. It simply says that opposing robots may not contact you in your own secret passage.
G11 is a rule that counters strategies, not other rules.
G11 is a rule that counters strategies, not other rules.
I'm going to make two statements here.
The first is that "Contact", when used as a verb, (very important) carries the implication that X is taking the action to make contact with Y. NOT the other way around.
The second is that a team that uses other rules to rack up penalties on their opponents is in fact using a strategy, and is in violation of G11. If there is a legitimate reason to take an action that causes an opponent to get a foul, then G11 wouldn't apply (most likely). If there is no legitimate reason, G11 applies. Whether or not G11 applies is going to be heavily context-dependent.
By the way, we've been discussing this in other threads since Kickoff. If 5-6 threads full of disagreement on one item isn't enough to ensure a change in TU#1, I don't know what is.
AndyBare
11-01-2016, 19:27
By the way, we've been discussing this in other threads since Kickoff. If 5-6 threads full of disagreement on one item isn't enough to ensure a change in TU#1, I don't know what is.
Even as a verb... "Formally stated, Newton's third law is: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. The statement means that in every interaction, there is a pair of forces acting on the two interacting objects. The size of the forces on the first object equals the size of the force on the second object."
Thus, if I contact you, you contact me.
As for G11, it's to stop teams pulling strategies like blocking human player feeding stations and forcing them to have more than 6 balls within their castles.
Another good example would be if you pinned an opposing robot in your secret passage, and kept ramming him into a wall in order to keep fouling him. That would 1. Be bullying, and 2. Be totally illegal.
Even as a verb... "Formally stated, Newton's third law is: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. The statement means that in every interaction, there is a pair of forces acting on the two interacting objects. The size of the forces on the first object equals the size of the force on the second object."
Thus, if I contact you, you contact me.
As for G11, it's to stop teams pulling strategies like blocking human player feeding stations and forcing them to have more than 6 balls within their castles.
We are not talking science, we are talking English. In the English language, if I contact you, you are NOT initiating the contact. If I contact you, you are in contact with me, and I am in contact with you, AFTER I contact you.
Here's the implications given by that:
Contact, initiate contact, make contact: A-> B, if A contacts, initiates contact, or makes contact. Think of it this way: Telemarketer contacts YOU. I don't know when the last time you contacted a telemarketer is...
In contact, contact (n): A <-> B.
I don't think we're in disagreement on G11. Allow me: It's disallowing teams from using the rules to develop a strategy to harm their opponent by causing a rules violation. Thus, it prohibits repeatedly hitting an opponent in your Passage just to rack up the penalties (if you're going to hit them, I suggest pushing them as hard as you can), blocking the various chutes so that boulders cannot be entered, and hitting your opponent in their courtyard for the penalties in the last 20 seconds. BUT, it does not prevent hitting them to get at those boulders, hitting them so you can get to the tower, or sitting just a bit outside the chutes so the boulders collect behind you and are hard but not impossible to get to.
DredPiratRobrts
11-01-2016, 21:41
There seem to be so many woundering people on this forum. PLEASE, I repeat, PLEASE seek medical attention if you or anyone on your team is woundering.
The Ginger needs to work on his typing and vocabulary.
Anyway here on G11.
Camping in the SP and using G11 to prevent others from contacting you is in fact G11 itself.
Secondly as a defender I can contact you without drawing a G11 on myself easily. "I'm trying to retrieve a boulder from the HP and needed to push them out of my way" or "I'm just trying to pin them for the allotted time" or "I just happen to be driving that way and they were in my path"
One change I do hope for is that they change G21 from being on the SP carpet to any part of the frame above the SP.
It is easy to cantilever out a frame plus your 15" allowance to block the HP. I say just the frame so that if a HP is careless in their throw and it gets to close to the edge. The other team can make them pay by snatching it up.
Personal preference on that one, may not be a big deal though unless you have good control over a good number of boulders.
The Ginger
12-01-2016, 16:21
thank you all for the help but could i please redirect you to the question, can you roll a boulder from the opposing teams SP into their courtyard to one of your team mates? I am not trying to be rude but i need an answer.
alopex_rex
12-01-2016, 16:25
Camping in the SP and using G11 to prevent others from contacting you is in fact G11 itself.
(Sigh) No.
Meta-violations of G11 will never be a thing. Unless your robot has mind control capabilities, it is impossible to adopt a strategy of forcing other teams to adopt a strategy of forcing you to commit fouls.
thank you all for the help but could i please redirect you to the question, can you roll a boulder from the opposing teams SP into their courtyard to one of your team mates? I am not trying to be rude but i need an answer.
No you cannot. If a robot is transferring a boulder from neutral zone to courtyard it must go through (and completely CROSS) a defense. Secret passage is not a defense.
Even bumping it through intentionally would be against the rules. Accidentally it may happen of course
The Ginger
12-01-2016, 16:32
not from the neutral zone, from the secret passage (SP)
alopex_rex
12-01-2016, 16:34
not from the neutral zone, from the secret passage (SP)
Transferring boulders from the opponent's SP to the opponent's courtyard is fine.
not from the neutral zone, from the secret passage (SP)
Ok. Yes as long as you remember that you had to get into their secret passage from their courtyard. and you cannot get in contact with their robots while in there.
The Ginger
12-01-2016, 16:40
Alright, Thank you guys for the help! :)
rich2202
12-01-2016, 16:52
No you cannot. If a robot is transferring a boulder from neutral zone to courtyard it must go through (and completely CROSS) a defense. Secret passage is not a defense.
Nor is the SP the Neutral Zone.
Scenario:
Robot is in the SP (or partially in the courtyard and partially in the SP).
Opposing alliance inbounds a boulder into the SP.
Robot intercepts the boulder.
At that point, the Robot can move the boulder into the courtyard because it is not a violation of G40 (G40 requires the boulder to be coming from the Neutral Zone). If the Robot is also simultaneously in contact with the SP and Courtyard, G39 would permit the Robot to Launch the boulder (take a shot at the goal).
Chase Haddleton
13-01-2016, 14:22
I'm going to make two statements here.
The first is that "Contact", when used as a verb, (very important) carries the implication that X is taking the action to make contact with Y. NOT the other way around.
The second is that a team that uses other rules to rack up penalties on their opponents is in fact using a strategy, and is in violation of G11. If there is a legitimate reason to take an action that causes an opponent to get a foul, then G11 wouldn't apply (most likely). If there is no legitimate reason, G11 applies. Whether or not G11 applies is going to be heavily context-dependent.
By the way, we've been discussing this in other threads since Kickoff. If 5-6 threads full of disagreement on one item isn't enough to ensure a change in TU#1, I don't know what is.
No, that's not the rule. Please specify how "they have that right" or how the red alliance can contact the blue robot to cause a foul without violating G11.
Rule update today clarifies this
Section 3.4.6 ROBOT to ROBOT Interaction
■ G21 A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing ROBOTS, regardless of who initiates the contact.
Emphasis added.
http://www.firstinspires.org/sites/default/files/uploads/resource_library/frc/game-and-season-info/competition-manual/2016/01.pdf
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