Drawbridge Door Contact Question

[seg9585]

I know for a crossing of the Drawbridge to officially count, a robot in the neutral zone not touching any component of the outer works must cross completely through the obstacle into the Courtyard. Also, it's legal to use teamwork to hold the drawbridge door down for another robot to cross through.

Can anyone say for sure if the following maneuver is regarded as a Drawbridge crossing (before I ask in the GDC):

Cross a different obstacle into the opponent courtyard, drive through the Drawbridge from the back (driving back into the neutral zone, but using an extrusion to hold the door open), then "tapping" the Drawbridge door into the ground (which will instantaneously lose contact with the arm and entire robot), then simply driving back through the Drawbridge obstacle to claim an entry?

I don't see a rule stating that the drawbridge door must be fully closed or a certain amount of time must pass between obstacle contact to declare it to be the start of a Crossing.

[rich2202]

Cross a different obstacle into the opponent courtyard, drive through the Drawbridge from the back (driving back into the neutral zone,

so far, so good

but using an extrusion to hold the door open), then "tapping" the Drawbridge door into the ground (which will instantaneously lose contact with the arm and entire robot),

Make sure you comply with "completely in the Neutral Zone", so the part your "tap" needs to be the portion of the door in the neutral zone.

IMHO: If you are going to employ that strategy, then you better warn the Refs in advance so that they will look for it.

[ASD20]

I was also planning on asking a Q and A question about how long you need to not be in contact with the defenses for.

[Kevin Sevcik]

We're thinking about trying this as a self-drawbridge/sally port crossing. I think better than tapping is having your extension out to catch the drawbridge. Drive off it, drawbridge swings up, catch with the extension and push it down to drive back. It's probably a little slower, but it's a lot more obvious you're not touching the drawbridge if it's free-swinging upwards.

But yes, you'll definitely need to warn the refs for the first few matches. Though if this is legal, I think it'll be common enough that they'll just watch for it rountinely.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

This seems hacky. I'd amend the rule/blue box to look something like this:

When a ROBOT passes from their opponent's COURTYARD to the NEUTRAL ZONE through a defense in GROUP C, the spring assisted door must either return to its original position or have its motion impeded by an ROBOT of the same ALLIANCE

[nuclearnerd]

This seems hacky. I'd amend the rule/blue box to look something like this:

I agree. This would turn the Category C defenses from the hardest to the easiest obstacles - changing the flow of the game completely from the GDC intent (I imagine). That said, I'll be watching the QA closely about this.

[BigJ]

I agree. This would turn the Category C defenses from the hardest to the easiest obstacles - changing the flow of the game completely from the GDC intent (I imagine). That said, I'll be watching the QA closely about this.

Tom's proposal doesn't "turn" anything, it's currently the rules as written (aside from the "tapping" the OP is proposing).

[InspectorGadget1073]

Just a warning--It may be really hard to become entirely in the neutral zone (You cannot be in the volume above the ramp), so please be weary before employing this strategy.

[SteveGPage]

Just a warning--It may be really hard to become entirely in the neutral zone (You cannot be in the volume above the ramp), so please be weary before employing this strategy.

Not sure I read the rules that way. Do you have a reference for that? Here is the definition of the OUTER WORKS

an infinitely tall volume bordered by the GUARDRAIL, the SECRET PASSAGE, and 2 in. white gaffers tape (The OUTER WORKS includes the white gaffers tape, but does not include the GUARDRAIL or SECRET PASSAGE). It consists of a series of five (5) DEFENSES, five (5) PLATFORMS, and five (5) Shields arranged in a line across the FIELD and is designed to impeded the passage of ROBOTS and BOULDERS in to the COURTyARDS

Nothing about that indicates that the open ramp is included in the volume of the OUTER WORKS. Therefore, that space should be in the NEUTRAL ZONE.

[nuclearnerd]

Tom's proposal doesn't "turn" anything, it's currently the rules as written (aside from the "tapping" the OP is proposing).

Heh. OK, but I smell an unintended consequence of a poorly written rule. I wager they'll change it (but we will happily play the door tapping game if not).

[BigJ]

Heh. OK, but I smell an unintended consequence of a poorly written rule. I wager they'll change it (but we will happily play the door tapping game if not).

Sorry, I misinterpreted, I though "this" in your post meant Tom's interpretation/the-current-rulebook-besides-tapping, implying being able to "follow each other through" the doors would be game breaking. I also think tapping is silly.

[dieDoktor]

(You cannot be in the volume above the ramp)

Where does it say this? The manual says that:
A DEFENSE is CROSSED by a ROBOT when that ROBOT
■ starts free of contact with the DEFENSE and completely in the NEUTRAL ZONE

Since the Drawbridge door extends down into the NEUTRAL ZONE, once you are clear of contact, you're good to cross.

[Jared Russell]

I think the referees have more than enough to keep track of this year as it is. Expecting them to reliably see ~100 millisecond long gaps in contact with a door is asking too much.

[Ken Streeter]

I think the referees have more than enough to keep track of this year as it is. Expecting them to reliably see ~100 millisecond long gaps in contact with a door is asking too much.

Just to add more to reinforce the above, there's a "blue box" which explains the GDC philosophy on this matter (end of section 3.1.3):

If it is unclear whether a ROBOT has satisfied the requirements for
CROSSING or REACHING a DEFENSE, the REFEREES are instructed
to not award credit. As such, DRIVE TEAMS should make it very clear
that their ROBOT has met the criteria for CROSSING or REACHING a
DEFENSE.

If it's unclear, no credit. I'm no lawyer (although I've been accused of being one in FIRST rule interpretation), but the originally-described approach seems pretty "unclear" to me.

[InspectorGadget1073]

Where does it say this? The manual says that:


Since the Drawbridge door extends down into the NEUTRAL ZONE, once you are clear of contact, you're good to cross.

I interpreted this since that the OUTER WORKS is infinitely tall zone and the robot cannot be in this zone and completely in the NEUTRAL ZONE at the same time. I assume that the ramps are part of the OUTER WORKS also.

[Kevin Sevcik]

I interpreted this since that the OUTER WORKS is infinitely tall zone and the robot cannot be in this zone and completely in the NEUTRAL ZONE at the same time. I assume that the ramps are part of the OUTER WORKS also.The OUTER WORKS is an infinitely tall volume bordered by, but not including, the GUARDRAIL, the SECRET PASSAGE, the COURTYARD and the NEUTRAL ZONE.So no.

[wjd13]

So I was thinking of something similar, along the lines of driving off of the drawbridge, letting it spring up, and then catching it with some sort of arm mechanism. I think you should definitely let the referees know about your strategy beforehand, but from my reading of the rules it seems legal.(by the reasons mentioned earlier in this post)

It should also be pretty easy for your robot to be in the neutral zone, since the drawbridge is 37" long, and thus would extend ~25" into the neutral zone when fully down (-12" for the 12" ramp). And since you can't have your arm extending >15" out from your frame/bumpers, that means that when you employ this strategy you should always be ~10" from the outerworks at the very least. One thought is that perhaps you could sit on the door just a second before doing your tapping/ catching of the door on the way up, just so the refs have a chance to catch it.

[dieDoktor]

I interpreted this since that the OUTER WORKS is infinitely tall zone and the robot cannot be in this zone and completely in the NEUTRAL ZONE at the same time. I assume that the ramps are part of the OUTER WORKS also.

So no.

However, the drawbridge extends past the volume defined as the OUTER WORKS.
The OUTER WORKS is an infinitely tall volume bordered by, but not including, the GUARDRAIL, the
SECRET PASSAGE, the COURTYARD and the NEUTRAL ZONE. It consists of a series of five (5)
DEFENSES, five (5) PLATFORMS, and five (5) Shields arranged in a line across the FIELD and is designed
to impede the passage of ROBOTS and BOULDERS in to the COURTYARD. Three (3) of the DEFENSES
are selected by the ALLIANCE, one (1) is selected by the audience, and the one (1) is a permanently
mounted Low Bar. (Figure 2-4 shows the locations of the Low Bar, ALLIANCE, and audience selected
DEFENSES.)

The door of the drawbridge extends significantly into the NEUTRAL
ZONE. And more importantly outside of the volume defined

A DEFENSE is CROSSED by a ROBOT when that ROBOT
■ starts free of contact with the DEFENSE and completely in the NEUTRAL ZONE

Therefore, if you manipulate the very edge of the door, remove contact for an unspecified time reuirement and reapply, you're good to go.

[bjtheone]

Alternatively, why not hold the door open or drawbridge down with your ROBOT, and wait for a team member to enter the DEFENSE from the NEUTRAL ZONE. As they move forward, you back out of the DEFENSE into the COURTYARD.

Two ROBOTs should have no issues playing train through the DRAWBRIDGE. The SALLY PORT requires a bit more driving but is doable.

Nothing in the rues about having to traverse completely through a DEFENSE once you enter it or number of ROBOTS contacting a DEFENSE at one time.

CROSSING is defined, by the movement of the ROBOT attempting the traversal. Nothing is said about the state of the DEFENSE, (opened/closed or occupied/unoccupied) at the begining of the attempt.

[seg9585]

Two ROBOTs should have no issues playing train through the DRAWBRIDGE. The SALLY PORT requires a bit more driving but is doable.


Yes this is well established and even demonstrated in the Kickoff video. But it requires relying on another team to work with you. I've experienced matches where the other 2 robots on my team are disabled on the field (or stuck, or flipped over, etc).
The same can effectively be said about the other obstacles -- another robot could just push you over the debris field/moat/rock wall from behind, but that's not what we're trying to solve here.

[apm4242]

The OP's maneuver is legal. As per the GDC -

Q. If a ROBOT moves from the opponent's COURTYARD through the opponent's OUTER WORKS and is completely in the NEUTRAL ZONE but is still in contact a DEFENSE, for how long does the ROBOT need to be free of the DEFENSE before attempting to traverse the OUTER WORKS again? For example, if a ROBOT were to push the Sally Port or Drawbridge away momentarily before traversing again, would this result in a CROSSED DEFENSE? PS: Section 4 in the 1/13/16 Game Manual seems to be Section 4 from the Admin Manual

A. Per the Blue Box in Section 3.1.3, it is the responsibility of the DRIVE TEAM to make clear to the REFEREE that they have satisfied all requirements of CROSSING a DEFENSE. If it is not clear to the REFEREE whether or not the ROBOT was initially free of contact with the DEFENSE prior to the CROSSING attempt, REFEREES are instructed to not award credit. It is in the DRIVE TEAM'S best interest to make it abundantly clear that the ROBOT is initially free of contact with the DEFENSE prior to CROSSING.

https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/Question/505/if-a-robot-moves-from-the-opponents-courtyard-through-the-opponents-outer-works-and-is-completely-in-the-neutral-zone-but-is-still-in-contact-a-defense-for-how-long-does-the-robot-need-to-be-free-o

[Chak]

Ri3D team REDACTED used this method in their reveal video (https://youtu.be/yBu_bwgrGXY?t=78). Can any referees out there comment on which way they would call it? If you're looking for it beforehand it's pretty clear that they're not contacting for a moment, but if you're looking off-hand it almost looks like they didn't move at all. How do refs plan to deal with this?

[rich2202]

I assume we will get instructions. Until then ...

At this time, I would apply a literal interpretation and allow it. From a physics viewpoint, as long as the contact mechanism moves fast enough, there is separation.