Team Update 3 (2016)

[Hallry]

https://firstfrc.blob.core.windows.net/frc2016manuals/TeamUpdates/03.pdf

[CalTran]

A BOULDER is scored in a GOAL if it passes through the opening of the GOAL and exits into the CORRAL, and the points awarded for that BOULDER are assigned based on when the BOULDER passes through the opening of the GOAL.

So...are the boulders scored manually or by sensor? Does this mean a Ref has to be ready to take away a score should the ball enter the opening of the goal and bounce out off the chain?

[Anthony Galea]

So...are the boulders scored manually or by sensor? Does this mean a Ref has to be ready to take away a score should the ball enter the opening of the goal and bounce out off the chain?

It's saying that for auton, if the ball passes through the goal opening during auton but reaches the sensor in teleop, it will count as an auton score.


Has this update made kicking the ball through the castle wall illegal? That's what I got it as anyway.

[CalTran]

It's saying that for auton, if the ball passes through the goal opening during auton but reaches the sensor in teleop, it will count as an auton score.


Has this update made kicking the ball through the castle wall illegal? That's what I got it as anyway.

...oh. That makes more sense. Now I feel silly.

As far as the kicking, I don't believe so, at least from the HP aspect. G38 is a robot rule (ROBOTS may not control more than one (1) BOULDER at any time.) with the blue box describing what "controlling" means.

[IronicDeadBird]

Oh dear launching now includes kicking boulders across the floor...
Did not expect that at all. Looks like I need to get drivers practice on staying on a ball so it doesn't look like they just want to blast it across the floor.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Oh great. Now I need to ask the if G38, Blue Box D definition of "launching" applies to G39 about only launching while touching an opponent's COURTYARD. If you can't kick a ball across the floor unless you're touching your opponent's courtyard, that makes ball defense much slower and less valuable.
Having to hand carry a ball out of range of an offense bot is going to hurt.

[IronicDeadBird]

Oh great. Now I need to ask the if G38, Blue Box D definition of "launching" applies to G39 about only launching while touching an opponent's COURTYARD. If you can't kick a ball across the floor unless you're touching your opponent's courtyard, that makes ball defense much slower and less valuable.
Having to hand carry a ball out of range of an offense bot is going to hurt.

So you want to do the honors then?

[Kevin Sevcik]

So you want to do the honors then?Fiddlesticks. There was a Q&A that the update was in response to. Q533 (https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/Question/533/can-you-further-clarify-the-definition-of-launching-as-it-applies-to-g39-would-either-of-these-actions-be-considered-a-g39-violation-if-performed-while-in-contact-with-the-neutral-zone-or-a-teams)Q. Can you further clarify the definition of "launching" as it applies to G39? Would either of these actions be considered a G39 violation if performed while in contact with the Neutral Zone or a team's own Courtyard: A. A robot very weakly ejects a BOULDER through an upward-facing mechanism normally used for shooting, such that it rises a minimal height required to clear the mechanism and then drops to the ground. B. A robot forcibly ejects a ball at ground level, rolling it across the field.
2016-01-14 by FRC5400
A. Good question. Releasing a BOULDER such that it is not shot in the air, but dropped from a certain height is not launching. A ROBOT that "forcibly ejects a ball at ground level" would be considered "launching," and this will be clarified in Team Update 03.So yes it applies. So no easy removal of dropped shots.

[michchinn]

So yes it applies. So no easy removal of dropped shots.

You could drop the boulder in your own secret passage, so the offense robot won’t go for it at risk of a penalty. But you might get a G11 in that situation for intentionally playing defense when they pick the boulder up.

[RyanCahoon]

A ROBOT may not attempt to stop or impede the flow of the MATCH in any of the following ways:

E. isolating BOULDERS in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE from opponents while not contacting the carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE

So does this mean we can't play defense to prevent opponent robots from entering their secret passage?

[Josh Goodman]

So does this mean we can't play defense to prevent opponent robots from entering their secret passage?

Unfortunately, I believe that is the intention.

[Kevin Sevcik]

So does this mean we can't play defense to prevent opponent robots from entering their secret passage?Unfortunately, I believe that is the intention.
I think y'all are reading it wrong. I think this modification is related to the rule that you can only block one of the two embrasures while not touching your opponent's carpet. The whole idea here is that if you're leaning over and blocking a significant portion of your opponent's SECRET PASSAGE without touching its carpet, then you're significantly impeding the intended match flow of HPs feeding BOULDERs out to their alliance's bots. And if you're not touching the carpet, your opponent doesn't have the recourse of a penalty to chase you off and get her BOULDERS back.

[Josh Goodman]

I think y'all are reading it wrong. I think this modification is related to the rule that you can only block one of the two embrasures while not touching your opponent's carpet. The whole idea here is that if you're leaning over and blocking a significant portion of your opponent's SECRET PASSAGE without touching its carpet, then you're significantly impeding the intended match flow of HPs feeding BOULDERs out to their alliance's bots. And if you're not touching the carpet, your opponent doesn't have the recourse of a penalty to chase you off and get her BOULDERS back.

Mmmm... maybe. The verbage is a bit odd. At first glance I would consider isolating boulders IN your opponents secret passage without contacting it's carpet running interference to prevent bots from entering. I hope that's not the case.

[IronicDeadBird]

Mmmm... maybe. The verbage is a bit odd. At first glance I would consider isolating boulders IN your opponents secret passage without contacting it's carpet running interference to prevent bots from entering. I hope that's not the case.

I think the GDC wants getting a boulder from the secret passage the equivalent of stealing a base in baseball. At the same time however baseball would be a very different sport if the main way of winning was just which team was the best at stealing bases.
A theory I have is the GDC is saying "Don't make a closed loop out of the scoring system"
Which is to say have a setup where you get the 6 cap of balls and then camp the passage as your supply line so every time you score you force the opposing side to introduce a ball into play (directly into your control) which you then score and use to repeat the process. The launching clarification means that you can't sit in the secret passage and "launch" a ball into the low goal. The only way to stop that would be to dedicate a robot to blocking the low goal which would leave all the other openings clear. This is just a theory though they could have patched this out by saying "you cannot score from your opponents secret passage."

[GeeTwo]

A ROBOT may not attempt to stop or impede the flow of the MATCH in any of the following ways:

E. isolating BOULDERS in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE from opponents while not contacting the carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE

So does this mean we can't play defense to prevent opponent robots from entering their secret passage?

I think this is designed to specifically exclude some of the "cantilevered over the opponent's secret passage" strategies.

[EricH]

A theory I have is the GDC is saying "Don't make a closed loop out of the scoring system"
THIS. One of the first things I thought about was a 469-esque system. (Referring to the 2010 robot, naturally.)

Then I realized that the GDC had made that VERY difficult. Now they've made it just about impossible.

[Madison]

A theory I have is the GDC is saying "Don't make a closed loop out of the scoring system"

If that's the case -- creating a labyrinth of poorly written rules and penalties to address a singular edge case from 6 years prior is the very definition of cutting off one's nose to spite their face.

This game is on track to be another with inconsistent reffing and nonsensical calls.

[Sunshine]

I believe that my initial reaction and comments are more valid today than at kickoff.

FIRST heard people complain about no defense or alliance interaction last year. They provided us a game with defense but made rules preventing most defense strategies. They want:
Lots of offense and scoring
Teams working together not against each other
Lots if activity with minimum obstruction
Play basketball defense in limited areas but not football

Please understand that this us not a rant. I love this years game.

[aldaeron]

They added the word "select" to the automotive motors section of R29 and then did not define the selection criteria ...

Q&A already submitted.

[IKE]

They added the word "select" to the automotive motors section of R29 and then did not define the selection criteria ...

Q&A already submitted.

In parenthesis, they mention:
(window, door, windshield wiper, seat, throttle) a version of these have been in many previous Kit of Parts throughout the years (either specifically noted, or via the ADA motor thing).

My suspicion about them adding "select" would be to keep it to the relatively lower power actuator style motors listed in parenthesis vs. finding a higher power electric motor, but definitely worth a Q&A to ensure you are getting the right interpretation. Over the years there has been various wordings used that conveyed slightly different intentions.

[aldaeron]

It already said "(Window, Door, Windshield Wiper, Seat, Throttle)". Not sure what the addition of "Select" means. Are there some window motors that aren't allowed? Clear as mud.

I'm sure they will clarify it. Problem is how do you add something that can be measured? From experience calling OEM manufacturers in past years, they don't usually supply things like measured, well documented Peak Power, Stall Torque, etc.

-matto-

[rich2202]

This is just a theory though they could have patched this out by saying "you cannot score from your opponents secret passage."

I sent an e-mail (not a Q&A) suggesting that they are creating a Ref'ing nightmare if the Ref is supposed to keep track of where each boulder came from. The genesis of the question was related to passing boulders through the Outer Works. If a boulder ended up in the Outerworks from the Courtyard, then it is ok, but if it originated from the Neutral Zone then it is not.

It is one thing to keep track of a boulder in active transit. It is another to keep track of boulders that may be sitting around for a while.

If you can't score a boulder from the opponent's secret passage, is that any boulder that ends up there (missed shot), or only boulders that have been introduced by a human player.

[Mr V]

It already said "(Window, Door, Windshield Wiper, Seat, Throttle)". Not sure what the addition of "Select" means. Are there some window motors that aren't allowed? Clear as mud.

I'm sure they will clarify it. Problem is how do you add something that can be measured? From experience calling OEM manufacturers in past years, they don't usually supply things like measured, well documented Peak Power, Stall Torque, etc.

-matto-

I read the rule as select automotive motors are legal and the select motors are any window, door, wiper, seat or throttle motor with no restrictions other than it originally being used for one of those functions. I think the intention is to prevent high power motors such as a starter motor from qualifying.

I do not read it as only select versions of window, door, wiper, seat or throttle motors will be legal.

Of course I may be wrong.

[aldaeron]

I read the rule as select automotive motors are legal and the select motors are any window, door, wiper, seat or throttle motor with no restrictions other than it originally being used for one of those functions. I think the intention is to prevent high power motors such as a starter motor from qualifying.

I do not read it as only select versions of window, door, wiper, seat or throttle motors will be legal.

Of course I may be wrong.

They answered the Q&A and what you presumed is the correct answer. I thought it was already clear without the word "select", but I wanted to make sure. Worst thing is to get to a competition and find you are illegal.

[MooreteP]

The Game Test that I am trying to write is getting harder to do with each Team Update.