View Full Version : Palmetto Regional Week 0.5
laplacier
22-01-2016, 10:12
Greetings! I am a mentor of Team #1287 Aluminum Assault and an annual attendee of the Palmetto Regional in South Carolina. Our school, the Academy for the Arts, Science, and Technology is located about 10 minutes from the event located at the Myrtle Beach Convention Center (http://www.myrtlebeachconventioncenter.com/).
This regional begins at Week "0.5" this year instead of Week 1. FIRST made a blog post about this change Here (http://www.firstinspires.org/node/7696). This is the only FRC event happening this week and it starts almost immediately after bag and tag day! There are 66 teams registered for this event, so it will be quite a busy event. Make sure to tune in to the live broadcast from FIRST to see the game in action at http://www.myrtlebeachfirstrobotics.com/!
We will be providing our own practice field for the regional in addition to the practice field provided by FIRST, giving us two practice fields to provide teams with at the regional this year. We are also providing student volunteers to help with operation of the event. If you have LabVIEW programming troubles at the event and can't get to one of the FIRST assistants, flag down one of the members of our team and our student programmers or I will do our best to assist you.
If you have any questions about the event or the surrounding area let us know and we will do our best to answer your questions. Best of luck to everyone attending the event!
marshall
22-01-2016, 10:39
Greetings! I am a mentor of Team #1287 Aluminum Assault and an annual attendee of the Palmetto Regional in South Carolina. Our school, the Academy for the Arts, Science, and Technology is located about 10 minutes from the event located at the Myrtle Beach Convention Center (http://www.myrtlebeachconventioncenter.com/).
This regional begins at Week "0.5" this year instead of Week 1. FIRST made a blog post about this change Here (http://www.firstinspires.org/node/7696). This is the only FRC event happening this week and it starts almost immediately after bag and tag day! There are 66 teams registered for this event, so it will be quite a busy event. Make sure to tune in to the live broadcast from FIRST to see the game in action!
We will be providing our own practice field for the regional in addition to the practice field provided by FIRST, giving us two practice fields to provide teams with at the regional this year. We are also providing student volunteers to help with operation of the event. If you have LabVIEW programming troubles at the event and can't get to one of the FIRST assistants, flag down one of the members of our team and our student programmers or I will do our best to assist you.
If you have any questions about the event or the surrounding area let us know and we will do our best to answer your questions. Best of luck to everyone attending the event!
Know any teams who play good defense? ;)
laplacier
22-01-2016, 18:31
Know any teams who play good defense? ;)
;)
Do we know yet if teams will be able to do pit setup on the Wednesday night during load in? Or will we have to wait until the Thursday like previous years?
marshall
22-01-2016, 19:39
Do we know yet if teams will be able to do pit setup on the Wednesday night during load in? Or will we have to wait until the Thursday like previous years?
Hopefully Wednesday night. They let teams do a little last year and it was great.* I have to commend the Palmetto regional staff for allowing teams to just plug in their batteries. It might seem simple but it is one of the best things and we've been told "no you can't plug in your batteries" during load-in more than once at the other events we've attended.
*I might have been remembering 2014...
laplacier
22-01-2016, 19:42
Do we know yet if teams will be able to do pit setup on the Wednesday night during load in? Or will we have to wait until the Thursday like previous years?
I have been told that this year we are permitted to set up our pit on load in day. As most of you might remember, last year we were prohibited from setting up our pits during load in.
JohnFogarty
22-01-2016, 23:59
The South Carolina regional director told us South Carolina teams at Kickoff and I'm sure it will be info included in future email blasts about Palmetto that he will allow the 5 member teams one Wenesday night and Thursday morning to setup pits.
As for 4901 we are looking forward to the competition with what could be our most dominate and competitive robot to come from our shop.
rberglund
23-01-2016, 07:52
We're Team 1369 Minotaur out of Middleton Magnet High School, Tampa, FLand excited to venture to the Palmetto state. We have our heavy jackets, wool hats & gloves packed :yikes:
We are looking for a recommendation on a good restaurant for a team dinner on Friday night. A buffet style would be best as we'll be 55+ people and our kids love buffets. We're staying at La Quinta on Kings Highway so anything relatively close to Arena or hotel would be great.
Noudvanbrunscho
23-01-2016, 08:17
Know any teams who play good defense? ;)
haha i can remember, North Carolina 2014 :)
wireties
23-01-2016, 10:40
FRC 1296, the Full Metal Jackets, are making our way to beautiful SC from Dallas. Restaurant recommendations for team meals would be great!
I grew up in the mountains of NC and we are sponsored by a company in Virginia, it will be nice to do a east coast event. We look forward to meeting all the local teams.
Build robots, have fun!
laplacier
23-01-2016, 12:30
We're Team 1369 Minotaur out of Middleton Magnet High School, Tampa, FLand excited to venture to the Palmetto state. We have our heavy jackets, wool hats & gloves packed :yikes:
We are looking for a recommendation on a good restaurant for a team dinner on Friday night. A buffet style would be best as we'll be 55+ people and our kids love buffets. We're staying at La Quinta on Kings Highway so anything relatively close to Arena or hotel would be great.
FRC 1296, the Full Metal Jackets, are making our way to beautiful SC from Dallas. Restaurant recommendations for team meals would be great!
I grew up in the mountains of NC and we are sponsored by a company in Virginia, it will be nice to do a east coast event. We look forward to meeting all the local teams.
Build robots, have fun!
The closest buffet I can recommend (to Team 1369) is The Original Benjamin's Calabash Seafood (http://theoriginalbenjamins.com/). The main theme is seafood but they have a ton of menu items to choose from for those who aren't seafood fans.
Another buffet near Broadway at the Beach is Captain George's (http://www.captaingeorges.com/default.aspx). It's another seafood theme but it also has a good pot roast on the menu.
An inexpensive, BBQ themed buffet is Simply Southern Smokehouse (http://www.simplysouthernsmokehouse.com). It's close to the location of the Palmetto Regional and you can't go wrong with BBQ!
rberglund
24-01-2016, 09:34
Thanks for the info - We'll check them out
lanna.stars
30-01-2016, 15:11
Hi All,
I am a mentor from 2386. 2386 along with 4 other teams from the Halton District School Board in Ontario, Canada will be convoying down to Myrtle Beach! We are looking forward to this as for some of our teams we will be new to the regional!
Good luck to all... and we promise not to bring snow like we did last year to Arkansas!
laplacier
30-01-2016, 15:19
Hi All,
I am a mentor from 2386. 2386 along with 4 other teams from the Halton District School Board in Ontario, Canada will be convoying down to Myrtle Beach! We are looking forward to this as for some of our teams we will be new to the regional!
Good luck to all... and we promise not to bring snow like we did last year to Arkansas!
Looking forward to having Canada at the event again! I'm curious, how do you guys plan to travel to the event this year with the event happening so close to bag-'n-tag day? Will your teams finish early?
lanna.stars
30-01-2016, 15:27
Looking forward to having Canada at the event again! I'm curious, how do you guys plan to travel to the event this year with the event happening so close to bag-'n-tag day? Will your teams finish early?
Our teams are planning for a Saturday February 20th Bag 'n Tag as we will be travelling via Coach Buses leaving the schools Monday morning. We are pulling extra hours and also currently have exam week right now for the students so the shops are open for students to come and go after their exams. Today we are working later than normal for a Saturday too. It's going to be tough this year but we are determined!
SoccerTaco
30-01-2016, 18:07
For those asking about restaurants, one word of caution from our experiences the last few years. February is the off season in Myrtle Beach. The tourists have not yet arrived. Many of the restaurants close earlier than they do later in the season.
If you go out Thursday night after the pits close (I think that is 8 pm), you may find that some restaurants are already starting to close down. It is definitely a good idea to call ahead and see how late they are open.
3824 is looking forward to seeing everyone and storming some castles together. ;)
suemim343
01-02-2016, 11:34
Team 343 Metal in Motion is super excited about the Palmetto Regional this year. We look forward to welcoming all of those teams coming from out of state. We are also looking forward to seeing old friends and making new ones. Welcome to the rookies coming to the Palmetto. We too are able and willing to help anyone having trouble with LabView.
slickvic2252
16-02-2016, 00:12
lets do some pre scouting for everyone attending shall we?
list all the defenses you can cross successfully.
JohnFogarty
21-02-2016, 09:32
Only 3 days away!
Is NASA hosting the livestream?
JohnFogarty
21-02-2016, 11:22
Is NASA hosting the livestream?
There will be a webcast per Frank Landford, our regional direcor. I've heard the live stream is being done by some of the same folks that host the RoboShowOD that is done in Florida at the Orlando Regional among other locations.
Go to the Palmetto Website at: www.myrtlebeachfirstrobotics.com . You will be able to access the live web-cast by clicking on the "Watch Live" tab on the home page of the website. We will be testing this tab late Thursday, February 25th....so it will be ready for Friday morning Opening Ceremonies. Please refer our website URL to all appropriate audiences, noting how to access the web-cast.
Billfred
21-02-2016, 21:55
There will be a webcast per Frank Landford, our regional direcor. I've heard the live stream is being done by some of the same folks that host the RoboShowOD that is done in Florida at the Orlando Regional among other locations.
Close--the story I had was RoboVisionOD, not The RoboShow. (Hard camera, not the full coverage...though a guy can dream!)
seannoseworthy
22-02-2016, 15:00
We're on our way down to Palmetto now and we're starting to get worried about our battery situation. Are there any local suppliers of batteries we can purchase from, or maybe a company with speedy shipping if we order tonight? Where do local teams get them?
wireties
22-02-2016, 15:40
A local Interstate battery dealer will have some. That is where we get ours.
JohnFogarty
22-02-2016, 15:45
We're on our way down to Palmetto now and we're starting to get worried about our battery situation. Are there any local suppliers of batteries we can purchase from, or maybe a company with speedy shipping if we order tonight? Where do local teams get them?
Billfred was too slow to answer so I'll give you the answer he might have given. Amazon. I see several batteries that you can order today shipped and have in your hand by Thursday at your hotel if you pay for the shipping.
Additionally. Come see 4901. I'll make sure we pack 2 teams worth of batteries if we have to.
Thanks everyone for the battery suggestions.
We ordered 4 new ones off amazon. Should be delivered to the hotel by wednesday!
See you all saturday.
- Bochek
slickvic2252
23-02-2016, 05:06
Anyone got any reveal videos or pictures they want to share?
Billfred
23-02-2016, 10:33
Anyone got any reveal videos or pictures they want to share?
We're under 49.5 hours from practice matches starting--why bother with pictures that close? :rolleyes:
Sandstorm III has seen a lot of work since the USC open house (https://twitter.com/GarnetSq/status/701101731720122368)...
Dylan179
23-02-2016, 10:35
FRC team 179 is proud to announce swamp thing 2016.
20 years of FRC has lead up to this epic moment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvHnjYLO-HI
Billfred
23-02-2016, 10:52
FRC team 179 is proud to announce swamp thing 2016.
20 years of FRC has lead up to this epic moment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvHnjYLO-HI
Whelp, that settles how many 8-sided robots we'll see at Palmetto. Looks fantastic!
Both 2200 and 2386 have several photos here on chief. Here are just a couple, search our team numbers to find the rest:
2386
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144366&highlight=2386
2200
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/42822?
FRC team 179 is proud to announce swamp thing 2016.
20 years of FRC has lead up to this epic moment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvHnjYLO-HI
Your team is always my favorite to look forward to your reveals, awesome
marshall
23-02-2016, 12:44
FRC team 179 is proud to announce swamp thing 2016.
20 years of FRC has lead up to this epic moment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvHnjYLO-HI
I know we're looking forward to getting beat by you! Awesome looking robot!
JohnFogarty
23-02-2016, 12:58
If any teams would like to volunteer members to join a scouting team because they are a smaller team without the numbers needed to create a shift based 7 member scouting team. Please PM me.
I'm looking to recruit people for a stands scouting team that will provide participating teams with very useful and complete scouting information for alliance selections.
Kellen Hill
23-02-2016, 15:14
I'll be driving up on Friday night with a couple people to check out the action on Saturday and to see what ridiculous contraption Aren came up with this year.
Looking forward to my first visit to the Palmetto Regional.
Aren_Hill
23-02-2016, 15:32
I'll be driving up on Friday night with a couple people to check out the action on Saturday and to see what ridiculous contraption Aren came up with this year.
Looking forward to my first visit to the Palmetto Regional.
Don't you put this all on me :P, we all share the blame equally
Brandon Holley
23-02-2016, 15:44
Have fun at Palmetto guys - the entire FIRST world will be watching you all compete :)
-Brando
James1902
23-02-2016, 15:45
Can't wait to make the trip down from Virginia! Looking forward to seeing how Stronghold plays.
first3234
23-02-2016, 16:08
Have fun at Palmetto guys - the entire FIRST world will be watching you all compete :)
-Brando
yes we will be watching i dont think that there is going to be one single person in the first community that will not be watching i know my team will be watching!
FRC team 179 is proud to announce swamp thing 2016.
20 years of FRC has lead up to this epic moment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvHnjYLO-HI
That's amazing! Can't wait to play with you all. And as Marshall said, we look forward to getting beat by you.
suemim343
23-02-2016, 17:31
We're on our way down to Palmetto now and we're starting to get worried about our battery situation. Are there any local suppliers of batteries we can purchase from, or maybe a company with speedy shipping if we order tonight? Where do local teams get them?
I see that you have found some batteries, but feel free to stop by our pit if you are in need of anything else, besides batteries we always throw in some other extra stuff just in case. And we have a full load of nuts and bolts, etc thanks to Fastenal.
We are very excited about the weekend. We have a lot of new kids that can hardly wait to experience their first regional competition.
FRC team 179 is proud to announce swamp thing 2016. 20 years of FRC has lead up to this epic moment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvHnjYLO-HI
Is the Swampthing another 10 wheel robot, or is that center wheel just a gear on the drivetrain?
MARS_James
23-02-2016, 17:50
Is the Swampthing another 10 wheel robot, or is that center wheel just a gear on the drivetrain?
10 wheels, you can see the middle wheel really well at the end.
Thad House
23-02-2016, 17:51
Don't you put this all on me :P, we all share the blame equally
Did you guys do another Internal CIM swerve???
Aren_Hill
23-02-2016, 21:58
Did you guys do another Internal CIM swerve???
That would require CIMs on the robot, we've still got some work to do.
4 matches in...aaand the Cheval de Frise broke
4 matches in...aaand the Cheval de Frise broke
So I did see that right.
gafftron
26-02-2016, 09:48
That is a lot of people needed to fix a CDF
Sperkowsky
26-02-2016, 09:54
I can not say I did not call this.....
http://i.imgur.com/TyInukL.png
4 matches in...aaand the Cheval de Frise broke
And it broke again in Match 6.
tindleroot
26-02-2016, 10:12
As of right now, matches are running 30 minutes behind schedule. These competitions are gonna be slow, folks.
nighterfighter
26-02-2016, 10:13
Should the CDF breaking count as a field fault? If it breaks on the first crossing, couldn't that potentially make it impossible to cross for a second time, preventing a breach?
I know it hasn't been called as a field fault these past two times, but it's something I'm wondering about.
Kevin Thorp
26-02-2016, 10:20
Does anyone know if there's an alternate video streaming source, other than the one posted on http://www.myrtlebeachfirstrobotics.com?
It's blocked on my computer.
Noudvanbrunscho
26-02-2016, 10:23
Does anyone know if there's an alternate video streaming source, other than the one posted on http://www.myrtlebeachfirstrobotics.com?
It's blocked on my computer.
http://www.thebluealliance.com/gameday#layout=2&view_0=2016scmb-1
Try this one.
4 matches in...aaand the Cheval de Frise broke
Now on match 8, and 3 CDF's have broken.
nighterfighter
26-02-2016, 10:25
http://www.thebluealliance.com/gameday#layout=2&view_0=2016scmb-1
Try this one.
Both of those links have the stream embedded from the same source. If it is blocked on one, it will be blocked on both. Although The Blue Alliance one also has twitch chat embedded.
Noudvanbrunscho
26-02-2016, 10:26
Both of those links have the stream embedded from the same source. If it is blocked on one, it will be blocked on both. Although The Blue Alliance one also has twitch chat embedded.
For me only one is blocked (the Blue Alliance one works), that's wierd
We have now learned that if you cannot cross the CDF the correct way, just make it into a rock wall, np. Another one down in match 8.
Ginger Power
26-02-2016, 10:28
Now on match 8, and 3 CDF's have broken.
If FIRST is looking for some more Mechanical Engineers I'll be graduating in 2018 :D
... and now CDF is no longer an option since they've run out of spares.
Whoops.
Now on match 8, and 3 CDF's have broken.
Update: "We are out of CDFs, we are now taking it out of the running for selection until we can fix them."
....okay, then. I feel bad for whatever event has Palmetto's truck next...
LDiDomenico
26-02-2016, 10:30
And now they are out of chevals
4 matches in...aaand the Cheval de Frise broke
Now on match 8, and 3 CDF's have broken.
Just announced that the CdF will be taken out of play. The Portcullis will automatically be selected for Category A defenses.
That is...interesting.
Cheval de fries is toast. Took it out of the game
So what happens if teams treat the portcullis like it's a 2-way draw bridge, and the event runs out of portcullis defenses?
Ginger Power
26-02-2016, 10:33
So many mechanisms built solely for the Cheval de Frise just became worthless. Wow. I can't even imagine the combined time and effort that, for now, was wasted. I'm hopeful that FIRST will come up with a solution for the long term.
Peyton Yeung
26-02-2016, 10:34
That would be awful if one of your only crossable defenses was the CDF and now it isn't usable.
gafftron
26-02-2016, 10:43
I wonder if there will be an update made to the Cheval to make it sturdier. Not sure how they would do it, but requiring the Portcullis to be out there changes a lot of the strategy teams can use.
Kevin Thorp
26-02-2016, 10:43
http://www.thebluealliance.com/gameday#layout=2&view_0=2016scmb-1
Try this one.
Thanks, but that doesn't work either.
BBray_T1296
26-02-2016, 10:46
I wonder if there will be an update made to the Cheval to make it sturdier. Not sure how they would do it, but requiring the Portcullis to be out there changes a lot of the strategy teams can use.
Steel. Lots of Steel.
The Lucas
26-02-2016, 10:46
So many mechanisms built solely for the Cheval de Frise just became worthless. Wow. I can't even imagine the combined time and effort that, for now, was wasted. I'm hopeful that FIRST will come up with a solution for the long term.
I am glad we have a week 0.5 event this year to work these issues out. Otherwise the impact could be much greater. Sincere thanks to Palmetto for testing out the inevitable first competitive week flaws. Hopefully, they can resolve this soon, especially for those whose only event is this one.
MrForbes
26-02-2016, 10:51
So many mechanisms built solely for the Cheval de Frise just became worthless. Wow. I can't even imagine the combined time and effort that, for now, was wasted.
Yeah, wow. I'm sure glad we didn't waste any time trying to design and build a mechanism for it.
s_forbes
26-02-2016, 10:52
I wonder if there will be an update made to the Cheval to make it sturdier. Not sure how they would do it, but requiring the Portcullis to be out there changes a lot of the strategy teams can use.
Maybe they just need some big fender washers instead of the countersunk bolt that holds on the pivoting bracket. It would poke up a bit, but at least it wouldn't break all the time.
The drawing for the CDF starts on page 50 of the field drawings (https://firstfrc.blob.core.windows.net/frc2016manuals/2016FieldComponents.pdf), for those curious.
Ginger Power
26-02-2016, 11:04
I'm really curious as to what part of the Cheval de Frise is breaking. If anybody could post pictures that would be awesome. I'm sure it's where the hardware attaches the boards to the pivot bar. I don't think having something sticking up from the Cheval de Frise would be an acceptable fix though. Many teams present company included need a smooth surface for the mechanism to work. I'd rather see thicker boards than hardware sticking up.
And now a Rock Wall has been dislodged from a Defense Platform during Match 13...
http://i.imgur.com/py1Nicv.png
EricDrost
26-02-2016, 11:15
I'm really curious as to what part of the Cheval de Frise is breaking. If anybody could post pictures that would be awesome. I'm sure it's where the hardware attaches the boards to the pivot bar.
This would be my guess too. It's the most frequent failure we saw on the wood version.
The difference in build quality between A/C and B/D/low is pretty apparent. Did anybody else see the team bend the drawbridge into a 180deg arc?
And now a Rock Wall has been dislodged from a Defense Platform during Match 12...
Betting somebody forgot to put the pins in to keep it from sliding out.
Sperkowsky
26-02-2016, 11:19
This would be my guess too. It's the most frequent failure we saw on the wood version.
The difference in build quality between A/C and B/D/low is pretty apparent. Did anybody else see the team bend the drawbridge into a 180deg arc?
I did. Luckily it is almost impossible to break Lexan by bending it.
EricDrost
26-02-2016, 11:25
I did. Luckily it is almost impossible to break Lexan by bending it.
Right, but it's much more possible to crack it at the mounting holes.
Landonh12
26-02-2016, 11:30
In other news, looks like FMS isn't updating again. The Blue Alliance is showing 0-0 scores for match 11, and nothing after. I thought they were working on fixing this last year?
http://www.thebluealliance.com/event/2016scmb
EDIT: Well, right after I post this, it updates.
In other news, looks like FMS isn't updating again. The Blue Alliance is showing 0-0 scores for match 11, and nothing after. I thought they were working on fixing this last year?
http://www.thebluealliance.com/event/2016scmb
EDIT: Well, right after I post this, it updates.
Interesting. Blue Alliance is showing the updated scores on Gameday
http://www.thebluealliance.com/gameday#layout=2
plnyyanks
26-02-2016, 11:49
In other news, looks like FMS isn't updating again. The Blue Alliance is showing 0-0 scores for match 11, and nothing after. I thought they were working on fixing this last year?
http://www.thebluealliance.com/event/2016scmb
EDIT: Well, right after I post this, it updates.
We're seeing intermittent results of 0-0 being returned from FRC's API (see the feed: http://tba-notification-firehose.appspot.com/). It seems like they matches are getting updated with proper scores a little later, though. No idea why and nothing we can do!
Hopefully this will get sorted out soon...
solopilot
26-02-2016, 12:01
The GMS app is currently tracking this event and displaying rankings. It is a Team Scouting app for Android and is available on Google Play. To login, use any name & password, Role=Team, Online, Shared Server. More info on http://gms.pejaver.com. Feedback appreciated.
Rosallya
26-02-2016, 12:58
The first 13 matches have been saved/uploaded on the website. Also, the broadcast seems to have stopped recording. :confused:
rpaulsen
26-02-2016, 12:59
The first 13 matches have been saved/uploaded on the website. Also, the broadcast seems to have stopped recording. :confused:
Lunchtime?
Edit: yep, just started back up
Eugene Fang
26-02-2016, 13:15
In other news, looks like FMS isn't updating again. The Blue Alliance is showing 0-0 scores for match 11, and nothing after. I thought they were working on fixing this last year?
http://www.thebluealliance.com/event/2016scmb
EDIT: Well, right after I post this, it updates.
The detailed match score API endpoint is currently down on FIRST's side though.
Landonh12
26-02-2016, 13:17
The detailed match score API endpoint is currently down on FIRST's side though.
Yeah, I wasn't saying it was on y'all's end. Usually when this happens it's on FIRST's side.
The Cheval de Frise is back in play! Let's see how long it lasts, and if FIRST puts in a permanent fix for later weeks...
And now a Rock Wall has been dislodged from a Defense Platform during Match 13...
Match 26, Portcullis has been dislodged from Defense Platform during Autonomous.
gafftron
26-02-2016, 14:01
First four audience selections were:
Cheval De Frise
Ramparts
Sally Port
Rough Terrain
Match 26, Portcullis has been dislodged from Defense Platform during Autonomous.
So question, does this count as a Tortuga since the match was reset? I mean, did anyone think it was possible to Tortuga on the Portcullis?! :ahh:
carpedav000
26-02-2016, 14:09
I see a lot of steel in FIRST's future :ahh:
Kevin Sevcik
26-02-2016, 14:10
I'm really curious as to what part of the Cheval de Frise is breaking. If anybody could post pictures that would be awesome. I'm sure it's where the hardware attaches the boards to the pivot bar. I don't think having something sticking up from the Cheval de Frise would be an acceptable fix though. Many teams present company included need a smooth surface for the mechanism to work. I'd rather see thicker boards than hardware sticking up.You're not going to get thicker boards, there's just not enough time. They'd have to make and distribute enough parts for something like 30 fields. That's something like 500 ramps to make. If you want to know the kind of solutions they're thinking of, think back to the ball ramps in Breakaway. They weren't clearing balls effectively from under the bridges, so the solution was to install the ball ramps upside down.
Whatever they come up with is going to leverage existing custom parts and fix the problem with COTS items. Fender washers longer button head bolts sounds pretty likely. MAYBE some plasma cut plates to increase the bearing surface, since you can knock those out fast.
gafftron
26-02-2016, 14:12
So question, does this count as a Tortuga since the match was reset? I mean, did anyone think it was possible to Tortuga on the Portcullis?! :ahh:
We saw one up at Week Zero https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEeIv6bOhHo&feature=youtu.be&t=1m5s
It's a trickier defense to cross than expected.
Thad House
26-02-2016, 14:13
You're not going to get thicker boards, there's just not enough time. They'd have to make and distribute enough parts for something like 30 fields. That's something like 500 ramps to make. If you want to know the kind of solutions they're thinking of, think back to the ball ramps in Breakaway. They weren't clearing balls effectively from under the bridges, so the solution was to install the ball ramps upside down.
Whatever they come up with is going to leverage existing custom parts and fix the problem with COTS items. Fender washers longer button head bolts sounds pretty likely. MAYBE some plasma cut plates to increase the bearing surface, since you can knock those out fast.
Actually, I bet they could come up with something. They have most of today to design, might be able to find a shop open on the weekend to make them, and could ship them all out monday, with the items being on time to the events next weekend. Now this would cost FIRST a TON of money, but I bet they would, because they can't afford the field breaking within 8 matches...
Nuttyman54
26-02-2016, 14:14
While I agree it would be difficult, it's not without precedent. In 2014 they drop-shipped a lot of pre-cut Lexan to all week 2 events to cover the bars behind the high goal and prevent bounce-out.
I expect FIRST started working on the problem as soon as the first one broke this morning.
You're not going to get thicker boards, there's just not enough time. They'd have to make and distribute enough parts for something like 30 fields. That's something like 500 ramps to make. If you want to know the kind of solutions they're thinking of, think back to the ball ramps in Breakaway. They weren't clearing balls effectively from under the bridges, so the solution was to install the ball ramps upside down.
Whatever they come up with is going to leverage existing custom parts and fix the problem with COTS items. Fender washers longer button head bolts sounds pretty likely. MAYBE some plasma cut plates to increase the bearing surface, since you can knock those out fast.
So far, the game actually looks pretty good - it's entertaining to watch because there's so much going on sometimes and there aren't too many robots sitting around doing nothing.
I've noticed very little defence in many of the matches I've watched. I'm wondering if it's because teams are focusing more on scoring at first or if it's because they're afraid of fouls.
As for the field... seriously?? Did they forget to test it or something? It failed in 3 matches.
So question, does this count as a Tortuga since the match was reset? I mean, did anyone think it was possible to Tortuga on the Portcullis?! :ahh:
I was expecting portcullis tortugas to be clotheslinings like the week 0 sample or having the bar catch between two protrusions in the robot top and basically pin them in place. Having a robot drive up the portcullis and end on their back bumper was a bit of a surprise.:eek:
ayeckley
26-02-2016, 14:21
The revised CdF is 1/8" steel across the entire underside. Trying to get some help uploading a picture.
https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtl1/v/t1.0-9/12744670_10205888183432244_1436728213553173114_n.j pg?oh=c37660e793980f24e47b62033f14a459&oe=574DE004
Revised CdF design, hot off the press.
The_ShamWOW88
26-02-2016, 14:35
We saw one up at Week Zero https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEeIv6bOhHo&feature=youtu.be&t=1m5s
It's a trickier defense to cross than expected.
The Tortuga will haunt you.....:D
Woo 2200, 179, and 4847 just set the world high score at 114.
First four audience selections were:
Cheval De Frise
Ramparts
Sally Port
Rough Terrain
Were these all the 2nd option during selection? It would be interesting to track how often this happens. I would figure the 2nd option might be chosen more than the 1st, since the audience knows how loud they have to yell to win.
Team Mittens!!!
But actually though. ~1:30 for 1296 to bust all the defenses solo in Q33?
But actually though. ~1:30 for 1296 to bust all the defenses solo in Q33?
That was pretty impressive.
Brandon Holley
26-02-2016, 14:52
That was pretty impressive.
Look like an ample amount of room for improvement as well. I could easily see them sub 1 minute in a few matches.
-Brando
gafftron
26-02-2016, 15:20
Were these all the 2nd option during selection? It would be interesting to track how often this happens. I would figure the 2nd option might be chosen more than the 1st, since the audience knows how loud they have to yell to win.
This is an interesting point. Currently it is leaning towards the 2nd option.
Cheval, Ramparts, and Rough Terrain are all second. Sally Port was first.
Cheval just won again as the audience selection. It's currently undefeated in audience selection
For still being relatively early in a first week event the amount of penalty free matches is encouraging for what the rest of the year might bring.
This is an interesting point. Currently it is leaning towards the 2nd option.
Cheval, Ramparts, and Rough Terrain are all second. Sally Port was first.
Another one for the 2nd option; Cheval de Frise was just picked (interestingly enough. I would think teams wouldn't want it to break again...)
AllenGregoryIV
26-02-2016, 15:25
Cheval just won again as the audience selection. It's currently undefeated in audience selection
It also broke for part of the morning and now you need two of them in every match for 10 straight matches. Odds at least one breaks again?
For still being relatively early in a first week event the amount of penalty free matches is encouraging for what the rest of the year might bring.
This has me somewhat concerned. I've seen penalties go uncalled this morning. Nothing very serious but definitely some fouls.
However, the amount of contact has generally been minimized. So those type of fouls aren't likely.
-Bernie
How does an alliance earn 42 defense points?....
How does an alliance earn 42 defense points?....
2 is a REACH if auto is included in the total.
Yet another dislodged defense. As if they weren't far enough behind schedule.
2 is a REACH if auto is included in the total.
Thanks, I forgot the reach...
Alex Cormier
26-02-2016, 16:17
Can I make a point? There are numbers on the bumpers so teams/people can easily see who it is and such. Should we use those numbers when doing play by play instead of team names and robot nicknames?
The first 13 matches have been saved/uploaded on the website.
pardon my ignorance... which website are they uploading to?
Ginger Power
26-02-2016, 16:24
Can I make a point? There are numbers on the bumpers so teams/people can easily see who it is and such. Should we use those numbers when doing play by play instead of team names and robot nicknames?
I would prefer that...
Lots of broken and stuck bots. Wowzer.
Sperkowsky
26-02-2016, 16:40
I would prefer that...
Agreed.
pmangels17
26-02-2016, 16:45
I have seen very few tower captures or high goal shots at all. It'll be interesting to see how the game dynamics change when the boulders start flying.
I have seen very few tower captures or high goal shots at all. It'll be interesting to see how the game dynamics change when the boulders start flying.
Which Palmetto are you watching? :P There haven't been any captures yet because it seems scoring 8 boulders is much more difficult that expected. Lowest health I've seen a tower at is 1, in match 22.
pmangels17
26-02-2016, 17:13
Which Palmetto are you watching? :P There haven't been any captures yet because it seems scoring 8 boulders is much more difficult that expected. Lowest health I've seen a tower at is 1, in match 22.
I should clarify, very few high goal shots and no captures. I've only been able to watch ~15 matches because of class and things, so I didn't want to confirm/deny any absolutes about the event. It certainly does seem harder than expected to score, though obviously that will change as we get further into the season. I have also noticed, however, that the field seems pretty dimly lit on the webcast. I wonder if is drastically affecting camera feeds and vision tracking for drivers (not that this is what is causing the low boulder scores).
waialua359
26-02-2016, 17:24
What a crazy chain of events today.
Instead of robots going back to the pit for repairs, its the game elements after almost every match. :ahh:
For our regional, looks like we need a pit for the Game Elements Team 9999!
There have been plenty of High Goal Shots in fact its about even or more than Low goal Shots
As for Challenges quite a few
Auto seems 30 is the high 3 bots crossing saw one match where it was 30/30
Scaling is fairly rare
Lots of stuck broken or frozen bots
Flags too happen often enough most for walking over defenses
Match 52 RED almost captured so close...down to 1 strength all three bots challenge with one having a boulder could not pop it in.
It's interesting that many teams seem very focused on defeating the defenses and just ignore the tower till the 4 defenses are down.
Thad House
26-02-2016, 17:41
There have been a lot of G5 Yellow Cards handed out today. Teams really need to be careful, and know that they can only use the Secret Passage to get between the gates and the middle of the field.
Q56 - Blue team got the red tower to -3!!!
Navid Shafa
26-02-2016, 18:16
It's interesting that many teams seem very focused on defeating the defenses and just ignore the tower till the 4 defenses are down.
Match 52 RED almost captured so close...down to 1 strength all three bots challenge with one having a boulder could not pop it in.
The extra RP from breaching is key. Until alliances can capture a tower reliably (or at all for that matter), goal scoring really only serves the purpose of padding the victory margin. Winning is important, don't get me wrong and breaching itself adds a fair amount of points to your score...
It's interesting that many teams seem very focused on defeating the defenses and just ignore the tower till the 4 defenses are down.
One team is able to earn the Ranking Point on their own by breaching the defenses, where it requires all 3 robots to earn the Ranking Point for a captured tower.
markmcgary
26-02-2016, 18:26
Triple Tortuga for Red in that last match, Q58.
Classified*
26-02-2016, 18:29
Triple Tortuga for Red in that last match.
I'm wondering how they got into that tent formation... :ahh:
Triple Tortuga for Red in that last match, Q58.
Can we get a ruling on that? What was up with the other bot not actually only the drawbridge?
If its a true Triple T, who would have though the first one would happen on the SAME Defense?! Stronghold is an awesome and crazy game.
markmcgary
26-02-2016, 18:36
I'm wondering how they got into that tent formation... :ahh:
They all three followed each other through the drawbridge from the courtyard. Number one (6222) died getting rammed from behind. Number three (4748) got stuck sideways in the gate. Number two (4823) tried to push number three back into the courtyard and ended up tenting. At least that's the way I saw it at 240p.
NOPE: There is video over at the Tortuga Contest thread which shows what really happened... I was close, but not exact. 4823 went through first, followed by 6222 then 4748. 6222 appeared to be pinned by the drawbridge. Too funny.
hawktomatoes
26-02-2016, 18:44
It was cool seeing the robots compete for the first time at an actual regional! A lot of interesting things happened. There's no doubt this is going to be an eventful year :)
Green Potato
26-02-2016, 18:49
With what appears to be the end of Day 1, I have compiled all the match results into a spreadsheet, found here. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13d6TewY5ouxurIzAsaQsEsygpmtv7BV4t0fLF7-UofA/edit?usp=sharing) I've computed winner and looser averages, and percentiles as well. The only thing I haven't captured are the breach totals. (The capture total for today: 0)
So far, the average score appears to be 59 for the whole field, 70 for the winning alliances, and 45 for the loosing alliances.
alephzer0
26-02-2016, 18:56
Not a single tower was captured from what I saw.
Chris is me
26-02-2016, 19:00
It's interesting that many teams seem very focused on defeating the defenses and just ignore the tower till the 4 defenses are down.
It is much, much easier to drive over something than to pick up and score a high goal, and they are worth the same number of points. It is also much easier to get the breaching ranking point than it is to get the capture ranking point.
Landonh12
26-02-2016, 19:26
Does anyone have a picture from the driver station showing the visibility of the field? I think it would be helpful to all of us to see a worst-case scenario (including Porticullus) so that we can judge the sight problems that a lot of us have been a little worried about.
Duncan Macdonald
26-02-2016, 19:26
It was cool seeing the robots compete for the first time at an actual regional! A lot of interesting things happened. There's no doubt this is going to be an eventful year :)
Did I just walk in on a Turing test?
Best of luck to all the teams!
I'm really grateful for the webcast, it makes our scout training possible. Unfortunately it is harder for the scouts when the camera keeps moving, is anyone recording from a static, full field camera? If so, when will the recording be uploaded?
Many Thanks!
Does anyone have a picture from the driver station showing the visibility of the field? I think it would be helpful to all of us to see a worst-case scenario (including Porticullus) so that we can judge the sight problems that a lot of us have been a little worried about.
While I don't have a picture, I can say that visibility was a major issue for our team. Some of our defense selection was based just on visibility. The main problem is the category C defenses, especially the drawbridge. The portcullis wasn't too bad because it is partially transparent. What surprised me was that more teams weren't using their human player as a spy to help navigate while in the opponent's courtyard. Hand signals were really helpful. And a camera is basically a necessity for this game.
JohnFogarty
26-02-2016, 21:25
If your robot is short you can't see it behind the Sally port let alone the other tall defenses.
D.Allred
26-02-2016, 23:15
Match 52 RED almost captured so close...down to 1 strength all three bots challenge with one having a boulder could not pop it in.
That was painfully close. We were a little left on our low goal shot. I think someone will capture before qualifications end.
In general, this game is fun to play but a wee bit rough on robots. The field itself has also taken a beating - especially the Cheval de Frise. These robots can easily overpower the polycarb. I believe FIRST is looking into reinforcement options.
I know a lot of people are curious about line of sight. My advice is to choose your defense wisely. We stick with all low defenses. They are still hard for most robots and field visibility in greatly improved. With two drawbridges and two portcullis gates, you can't even see the timer clock on the other end.
The clear barriers between the defenses and on the batter are very tough to see. Lots of folks hitting or getting stuck on these shields.
The wood defenses don't give you a good indication of how the re,al field reacts. To me, the Cheval de Frise, Rough Terrain, and Moat are tougher. The Portcullis is much easier.
Saturday is going to be interesting. Not too much defensive play yet. Elimination rounds
David
jajabinx124
26-02-2016, 23:31
Not a single tower was captured from what I saw.
For sure tomorrow we should be able to see a capture in elims, but yeah definitely tougher than imagined. With coordination before matches with your alliance members it certainly is possible to capture the tower (and today there were so many times were it was so close..)
Week 1 should be better with captures but IMO, I don't think it'll be that noticeably better. This week 0.5 regional should give many teams the strategical ideas they need for quals matches during week 1, but again the challenge of breaching, capturing, and winning is overwhelming and will require a load of luck for it to happen during quals.
Landonh12
27-02-2016, 00:44
I think the strategy for teams that are capable of scoring boulders is damaging a defense every two cycles. In practice we ran 8 cycles in a timed practice period with a defensive robot (most ideal situation with a boulder sitting just outside the low bar - not in the same spot every time, though).
One robot can rack up a lot of points in a match by themselves if they follow this plan. Score a boulder, run under the low bar to grab a boulder, then cross a defense. 10 point cycles. If a robot is capable of doing 8 cycles, that's 80 points in tele-op by themselves.
I understand that there won't be many robots that can do this, but if you look at teams like 179 at this event, they could most definately get close to doing something similar. Especially in the right alliance.
Most teams are just focusing on the defenses at the moment. Remember, this is a week 0.5 event. A lot of teams tend to learn from regionals and make changes when it's their turn to compete, especially for teams that attend multiple regionals/district events.
I'm sure we will see a tower capture once every few matches in the coming weeks.
Ryan Dognaux
27-02-2016, 02:09
I'm curious if any teams at Palmetto are using 'birds eye' view cameras as a part of their driver stations? (Tall poles with a camera mounted on it)
It would seem that it could help the visibility problem in certain situations but we don't have a full field to test this against.
This game looks crazy rough and it's not even week 1 yet. Can't wait to see how our robot holds up.
waialua359
27-02-2016, 05:11
One robot can rack up a lot of points in a match by themselves if they follow this plan. Score a boulder, run under the low bar to grab a boulder, then cross a defense. 10 point cycles. If a robot is capable of doing 8 cycles, that's 80 points in tele-op by themselves.
I'm sure we will see a tower capture once every few matches in the coming weeks.
This is the most logical sequence that I envision teams would be doing. Less wasted motion and accomplishing both at once.
Unless of course if youre like Team 118 that can Dukes of Hazard just about anything. No need come back via the low bar, other than not trying to wear out your robot.
This is the most logical sequence that I envision teams would be doing. Less wasted motion and accomplishing both at once.
Unless of course if youre like Team 118 that can Dukes of Hazard just about anything. No need come back via the low bar, other than not trying to wear out your robot.
I think the main reason that teams aren't relying on this strategy is that they want to guarantee that they will get the ranking point for breaching. Picking up and scoring boulders can take some time. It's better to at least get the one ranking point for breaching rather than attempting to get two/getting extra points for scoring boulders but risking getting no ranking points at all. At least at Palmetto, if you can breach, the points you get for crossing defenses is usually enough to get you the win.
I know a lot of people are curious about line of sight. My advice is to choose your defense wisely. We stick with all low defenses. They are still hard for most robots and field visibility in greatly improved. With two drawbridges and two portcullis gates, you can't even see the timer clock on the other end.
David
It seems like a "defense agreement" would be beneficial to both sides. For ease of visibility, only choose low defenses.
JohnFogarty
27-02-2016, 07:49
It seems like a "defense agreement" would be beneficial to both sides. For ease of visibility, only choose low defenses.
I know this has happened several times with my team.
It seems like a "defense agreement" would be beneficial to both sides. For ease of visibility, only choose low defenses.
You may wish to view Q804 (https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/Question/804/is-colluding-with-the-opposing-alliance-such-that-both-alliances-choose-easier-defenses-to-allow-both-alliances-to-better-secure-a-breach-and-gain-ranking-points-a-violation-of-t7-or-t8-can-both-alli).
Working with your opponent to mutually select 'easier' DEFENSES does not fortify your OUTER WORKS.
Michael Corsetto
27-02-2016, 08:30
I know this has happened several times with my team.
https://media.giphy.com/media/ZDl4Nut74vtg4/200w.gif
The_ShamWOW88
27-02-2016, 08:37
Interested to see what the alliance strategies will be this afternoon after quals.....
It seems like a "defense agreement" would be beneficial to both sides. For ease of visibility, only choose low defenses.
No agreement or collusion necessary. Select the defenses that most benefit you (the ones that let you see). Wow, your opponent did the same thing! Probably because they went through the same thought process and it's worth doing even if your opponent doesn't do it too!
When people talk about "X Agreement" in FRC, they're talking about prisoner's dilemma situations. This is not one of those.
tindleroot
27-02-2016, 10:30
179 just died after auto but their partners won the match and breached anyways!!!!:ahh:
Landonh12
27-02-2016, 11:15
I'm curious if any teams at Palmetto are using 'birds eye' view cameras as a part of their driver stations? (Tall poles with a camera mounted on it)
It would seem that it could help the visibility problem in certain situations but we don't have a full field to test this against.
This game looks crazy rough and it's not even week 1 yet. Can't wait to see how our robot holds up.
We asked on the FRC Q&A if this was legal. They said it was so we're going to be doing this. It helped our drivers in practice tremendously.
drew212f
27-02-2016, 11:50
342 dead on field
Programming had their test board on during 2 matches and the drive station was still connected to test board router....:ahh: lesson learned!
You may wish to view Q804 (https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/Question/804/is-colluding-with-the-opposing-alliance-such-that-both-alliances-choose-easier-defenses-to-allow-both-alliances-to-better-secure-a-breach-and-gain-ranking-points-a-violation-of-t7-or-t8-can-both-alli).
In FIRST STRONGHOLD, ALLIANCES are expected to to fortify their OUTER WORKS. Working with your opponent to mutually select 'easier' DEFENSES does not fortify your OUTER WORKS. Selecting optimal DEFENSES that fortify your OUTER WORKS, both type and placement, with imperfect knowledge of your opponent's capabilities, is a skill. The approach you are asking about does not engage that skill, is playing beneath your ability, and a violation of T7 and T8.
Ginger Power
27-02-2016, 12:29
5327 just shut down 179 for a solid 30-40 seconds. Defense is going to play a huge role in the playoffs.
logank013
27-02-2016, 12:29
So... The blue alliance chat is through twitch. Is the streaming through twitch as well? If so, what is the twitch channel for this event? I'm trying to watch mobile. I can in the twitch app. Just not on TBA gameday. Thanks.
So... The blue alliance chat is through twitch. Is the streaming through twitch as well? If so, what is the twitch channel for this event? I'm trying to watch mobile. I can in the twitch app. Just not on TBA gameday. Thanks.
The webcast is streaming through Ustream. TBA just embeds the stream on the GameDay page. The twitch chat is the TBA GameDay chat.
logank013
27-02-2016, 12:34
The webcast is streaming through Ustream. TBA just embeds the stream on the GameDay page. The twitch chat is the TBA GameDay chat.
Then what is the Ustream channel? Thanks
Then what is the Ustream channel? Thanks
http://www.htcinc.net/portal/streams/robotics/
Alliance Selection Results
1. 0179 - 4451 - 1369
2. 1296 - 3824 - 4533
3. 1758 - 1876 - 4073
4. 2172 - 2252 - 0237
5. 2200 - 0120 - 2386
6. 4547 - 0343 - 2614
7. 4823 - 1102 - 2187
8. 2393 - 3490 - 0283
No declines.
JohnSchneider
27-02-2016, 13:04
Oh neat. We're allowed to call in picks this year.
The_ShamWOW88
27-02-2016, 13:10
179 and 4451 is a strong pairing, could see some tower captures if both have their shooters dialed in
Brian Maher
27-02-2016, 13:16
OPR for fun:
# Captain First Second Cap OPR FP OPR SP OPR Total
1 179 4451 1369 56.39 41.31 13.01 110.70
2 1296 3824 4533 33.83 38.37 23.10 95.30
3 1758 1876 4073 13.62 46.54 31.11 91.28
4 2172 2252 237 24.27 36.63 23.08 83.97
5 2200 120 2386 41.01 35.95 25.65 102.61
6 4547 343 2614 17.87 31.07 29.10 78.04
7 4823 1102 2187 12.68 33.05 23.12 68.84
8 2393 3490 283 48.25 31.15 24.13 103.53
OPR for fun:
# Captain First Second Cap OPR FP OPR SP OPR Total
1 179 4451 1369 56.39 41.31 13.01 110.70
2 1296 3824 4533 33.83 38.37 23.10 95.30
3 1758 1876 4073 13.62 46.54 31.11 91.28
4 2172 2252 3490 24.27 36.63 31.15 92.05
5 2200 120 2386 41.01 35.95 25.65 102.61
6 4547 343 2614 17.87 31.07 29.10 78.04
7 4823 1102 2187 12.68 33.05 23.12 68.84
8 2393 3490 283 48.25 31.15 24.13 103.53
4 seed second pick is 0237, not 3490
sciencenuetzel
27-02-2016, 13:18
Will Playoffs begin at 1:30? (Schedule says so...)
Louisiana Jones
27-02-2016, 13:20
Will Playoffs begin at 1:30? (Schedule says so...)
That's what they announced on the stream.
Brian Maher
27-02-2016, 13:21
4 seed second pick is 0237, not 3490
Thanks, fixed
How do playoffs work ?
Semi schedule already posted? (from TBA)
Quarters 1 Match 1 4451 179 1369 3490 2393 283 Sat 10:30 AM
Quarters 1 Match 2 2252 2172 237 120 2200 2386 Sat 10:37 AM
Quarters 1 Match 3 3824 1296 4533 1102 4823 2187 Sat 10:44 AM
Quarters 1 Match 4 1876 1758 4073 343 4547 2614 Sat 10:51 AM
Quarters 1 Match 5 4451 179 1369 3490 2393 283 Sat 11:01 AM
Quarters 1 Match 6 2252 2172 237 120 2200 2386 Sat 11:08 AM
Quarters 1 Match 7 3824 1296 4533 1102 4823 2187 Sat 11:15 AM
Quarters 1 Match 8 1876 1758 4073 343 4547 2614 Sat 11:22 AM
Semifinals <------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ????
Semis 1 Match 1 4451 179 1369 3490 2393 283 Sat 11:35 AM
Semis 1 Match 2 2252 2172 237 120 2200 2386 Sat 11:42 AM
Semis 1 Match 3 3824 1296 4533 1102 4823 2187 Sat 11:49 AM
Match times are approximate and are in your local timezone
Semis 1 Match 4 1876 1758 4073 343 4547 2614 Sat 11:56 AM
RufflesRidge
27-02-2016, 13:29
Semi schedule already posted? (from TBA)
Looks like a TBA bug. The FIRST page doesn't have that: http://frc-events.usfirst.org/2016/SCMB/playoff
Its 1:38EST whats up?
Webcast is back up. Audience Selection for QF Defenses going on now.
plnyyanks
27-02-2016, 13:59
Looks like a TBA bug. The FIRST page doesn't have that: http://frc-events.usfirst.org/2016/SCMB/playoff
Yup. And it's been fixed. We forgot to stop assuming the 2015 playoff structure
Recycle Rush keeps rearing its ugly head :P
Christopher149
27-02-2016, 14:06
We had our first capture last match with the #5 alliance.
We asked on the FRC Q&A if this was legal. They said it was so we're going to be doing this. It helped our drivers in practice tremendously.
Can you please post a link to the specific Q&A question for this? It would be greatly apprieciated!
Pi Fighter
27-02-2016, 15:17
Can you please post a link to the specific Q&A question for this? It would be greatly apprieciated!
I think Q890 (https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/Question/890/based-on-the-answer-to-q851-im-assuming-this-is-legal-however-would-having-the-camera-connected-to-the-operator-console-laptop-violate-t26-1-would-it-be-legal-to-have-the-webcam-attached-to-the-pol) and Q851 (https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/Question/851/are-teams-allowed-to-mount-approximately-a-ten-foot-pole-with-a-wired-camera-on-top-to-their-individual-driver-station-and-get-a-birds-eye-view-of-the-match-for-driver-use-during-the-match) are the two you're looking for. Hope this helps.
Ginger Power
27-02-2016, 15:58
If every regional has a 1369 then Stronghold is going to be a ridiculously fun game. They are absolutely shutting down the opposing alliances.
BBray_T1296
27-02-2016, 16:45
Well, if we learned one thing today, it is to be careful with 775s
XaulZan11
27-02-2016, 16:49
If every regional has a 1369 then Stronghold is going to be a ridiculously fun game. They are absolutely shutting down the opposing alliances.
But they can't go under the low bar! :eek: :ahh:
;)
If every regional has a 1369 then Stronghold is going to be a ridiculously fun game. They are absolutely shutting down the opposing alliances.
Not to mention that they were picked last:ahh:
Ginger Power
27-02-2016, 16:56
Not to mention that they were picked last:ahh:
Never underestimate people's ability to underestimate.
Can anyone who is out there in Palmetto give an estimate on the boulders' condition at different points through the competition?
Do they make sure to only keep the ones that are in good condition, or did you end up with really worn out boulders in the final stages of the competition?
Final results:
1. 0179 - 4451 - 1369 W
2. 1296 - 3824 - 4533 SF
3. 1758 - 1876 - 4073 QF
4. 2172 - 2252 - 0237 QF
5. 2200 - 0120 - 2386 SF
6. 4547 - 0343 - 2614 F
7. 4823 - 1102 - 2187 QF
8. 2393 - 3490 - 0283 QF
MrForbes
27-02-2016, 17:14
If every regional has a 1369 then Stronghold is going to be a ridiculously fun game. They are absolutely shutting down the opposing alliances.
And Red won with them sitting still all through the last final match....
Great regional!
Can anyone who is out there in Palmetto give an estimate on the boulders' condition at different points through the competition?
Do they make sure to only keep the ones that are in good condition, or did you end up with really worn out boulders in the final stages of the competition?
We are waiting for this info as well! If someone in Palmetto can provide us how they managed this, we appreciate!
interesting match. a lot of defensive plays.
Palmetto teams great job!
Hey can someone there give us a summary of things you learned that you did not know going in... just an overall REAL vs theoretical breakdown. Like what was easier/harder, challenges and did human players have any significant effect.
Also what penalties were called most?
Take away from tournament, expect lots of repairs. Bring epoxy, loctite, duct tape, bailing wire, spit... Most brutal competition I've seen
Also what penalties were called most?
DO NOT STEP OVER THE DEFENSES WHEN SETTING UP YOUR ROBOT.
billbo911
27-02-2016, 17:36
Well, if we learned one thing today, it is to be careful with 775s
Maybe I missed something. Can you please explain this statement?
Anteprefix
27-02-2016, 17:37
DO NOT STEP OVER THE DEFENSES WHEN SETTING UP YOUR ROBOT.
Seriously though, so many yellow cards.
andrewb1999
27-02-2016, 17:45
If every regional has a 1369 then Stronghold is going to be a ridiculously fun game. They are absolutely shutting down the opposing alliances.
(Won't let me post the image from mobile so here's the link)
http://imgur.com/JZnnWgx
jajabinx124
27-02-2016, 18:03
Maybe I missed something. Can you please explain this statement?
1296's robot started smoking twice during Palmetto eliminations.. so it seems like the smoke was coming from the 775 motors.
Landonh12
27-02-2016, 18:21
Can someone explain the defense situation against 179 for me? I was at work and was unable to watch the stream.
From what I've gathered, they were stopped by a tall robot.
Is 179 able to shoot from the batter? I don't think you can really be defended well if your robot can score into the high goal from the batter. IIRC, 179 was trying to use vision tracking to lock on to the goals and then shoot from any orientation in the courtyard.
ATannahill
27-02-2016, 18:33
Since 4451 won the event and EI, they open up a wildcard which goes to 4547, the finalist alliance captain.
The Lucas
27-02-2016, 19:01
Can someone explain the defense situation against 179 for me? I was at work and was unable to watch the stream.
From what I've gathered, they were stopped by a tall robot.
Is 179 able to shoot from the batter? I don't think you can really be defended well if your robot can score into the high goal from the batter. IIRC, 179 was trying to use vision tracking to lock on to the goals and then shoot from any orientation in the courtyard.
Stream is archived here http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/83827538
Unfortunately, I am unable to watch anything before the 3hr mark, perhaps it will work for others. The last 2 Finals matches are there (missing the epic F1).
MARS_James
27-02-2016, 19:22
Can someone explain the defense situation against 179 for me? I was at work and was unable to watch the stream.
From what I've gathered, they were stopped by a tall robot.
Is 179 able to shoot from the batter? I don't think you can really be defended well if your robot can score into the high goal from the batter. IIRC, 179 was trying to use vision tracking to lock on to the goals and then shoot from any orientation in the courtyard.
From my perspective we were never shut down by anyone, we ran into some unexpected mechanical issues.
Electronica1
27-02-2016, 19:24
From my perspective we were never shut down by anyone, we ran into some unexpected mechanical issues.
Does the moat count?
Can someone explain the defense situation against 179 for me? I was at work and was unable to watch the stream.
From what I've gathered, they were stopped by a tall robot.
Is 179 able to shoot from the batter? I don't think you can really be defended well if your robot can score into the high goal from the batter. IIRC, 179 was trying to use vision tracking to lock on to the goals and then shoot from any orientation in the courtyard.
I think you have it backwards. Team 179 was a part of an alliance who's defense was really good. They were able to shut down a majority of shots the other teams had.
Any updates on the awards? TBA isn't updating anything on my end.
Any updates on the awards? TBA isn't updating anything on my end.
http://frc-events.firstinspires.org/2016/SCMB/awards
MrForbes
27-02-2016, 19:33
looks like new "results" page setup....here is the awards section
http://frc-events.firstinspires.org/2016/SCMB/awards
jajabinx124
27-02-2016, 19:47
From my perspective we were never shut down by anyone, we ran into some unexpected mechanical issues.
Yeah, you guys weren't "shut down" by anyone.. were you guys disrupted a bit by defenders? Yes, but not completely shut down. Congrats on winning the palmetto regional 179, 4451, and 1369! I'm excited to see 179 back at champs where they belong.
Landonh12
27-02-2016, 19:57
From my perspective we were never shut down by anyone, we ran into some unexpected mechanical issues.
Yeah, sorry for the misconception. I was reading the thread in a rush at work.
I'll watch the live stream.. Just interested to see a defensive bot do some work.
MARS_James
27-02-2016, 20:42
I'll watch the live stream.. Just interested to see a defensive bot do some work.
Watch any of Alliance 1s matches and see how important defense is, 1369 minotaur were amazing at defense and a perfect final bot for our alliance
Watch any of Alliance 1s matches and see how important defense is, 1369 minotaur were amazing at defense and a perfect final bot for our alliance
I agree I'm surprised they lasted until Pick 24 what happened with them breaking down? What was the mechanical issues your team had?
SoccerTaco
27-02-2016, 21:29
1296's robot started smoking twice during Palmetto eliminations.. so it seems like the smoke was coming from the 775 motors.
They really toasted them! I was up high in the cheap seats and could smell them. :(
1296 had a great bot and 3824 appreciates the opportunity to play on their alliance.
So its been a long day and now that were back at our hotel I will share some thoughts about the event. I was the drive coach for this event in place of Dan so I will try to hit most peoples questions.
Firstly, I want to thank our alliance partners 4451 and 1369 for being part of our alliance. We were expecting 4451 to be good and we were not disappointed and we couldn't have been luckier to get 1369 as our 3rd pick who came with a purpose built defense mechanism.
A couple of notes about the matches and conditions of the game:
The balls were in decent condition throughout the event, and the field crew was good about replacing balls when significant damage was brought to there attention.
Billfred did a great job with the defense selection process throughout the event. During qualifying our experience was smooth. The rules with selecting defenses during elimination matches are a little confusing as they do a new audience selection between rounds so your expected to have a representative choose your defenses, get your robot on the field, and be ready to start the match simultaneously which is difficult for everyone but the field crew understood and gave everyone enough time to tether and set up.
The steel defense are brutal on your robot, much more so than the wood team versions.
The ranking point for defeating the defenses every match of qualifying can't be overlooked.
Defense is real and finding safe places to shoot or being able to shoot while being pushed will get more and more important as the events go on. The outer works was not a "safe" zone at this event.
For anyone interested in our robot specifically, we had a number of technical issues to work on throughout the event, mostly with our vision tracking, so we feel that there is lots of room for improvement throughout the season. There was a few things mechanically knocked lose by driving over the defenses. If you forgot to use locking fasteners or locktite ANYTHING this game will find it.
Overall we had a great time at Palmetto and were thrilled to have qualified for championships after missing out last year with the help of our amazing partners. Were looking forward to the rest of the season and seeing how the game develops.
Anyone with specific questions let me know and I will answer what I can.
Keefe2471
27-02-2016, 23:25
Defense is real and finding safe places to shoot or being able to shoot while being pushed will get more and more important as the events go on. The outer works was not a "safe" zone at this event.
First of all, congrats on the win! Very cool robot and the hanging and auto every round really looked cool. Do you think the lack of safe zone was a lack of knowledge by the referees and a mistake? I was under the impression that having your bumpers over the defenses was the only requirement to qualify as "traversing" and while you were traversing you were safe. It will be a very different type of competition than I thought it would be if no one is safe while they shoot.
Thanks.
Catherine57
27-02-2016, 23:30
That"s my question, too. Was it not a foul if you were shooting with your bumper in the outer works?
jajabinx124
27-02-2016, 23:34
That"s my question, too. Was it not a foul if you were shooting with your bumper in the outer works?
As long as your robot is in contact with the opponents courtyard you can shoot. Rule G39: ROBOTS are prohibited from launching BOULDERS unless they are in contact with the opponent’s TOWER or carpet in the opponent’s COURTYARD, and not in contact with any other carpet.
Ken Streeter
27-02-2016, 23:38
First of all, congrats on the win!
Agreed! Just watched the 179 reveal video and loved the wheeled shooter including a turret. We considered doing that this year but didn't think we could do that and still get under the low bar. The "Swamp Thing" managed to do it very effectively -- well done!
Do you think the lack of safe zone was a lack of knowledge by the referees and a mistake? I was under the impression that having your bumpers over the defenses was the only requirement to qualify as "traversing" and while you were traversing you were safe.
We've been operating under the above understanding, too -- if the "shooting" robot has backed away from the tower so that a bumper is over the ramp to the defenses, then for a defender to interfere with that robot should be a foul, at least from our understanding of G43.
Rangel(kf7fdb)
27-02-2016, 23:40
As long as your robot is in contact with the opponents courtyard you can shoot. Rule G39: ROBOTS are prohibited from launching BOULDERS unless they are in contact with the opponent’s TOWER or carpet in the opponent’s COURTYARD, and not in contact with any other carpet.
Yes but the outerworks is not another carpet. If your robot is in your opponent's courtyard and your bumper is in the volume of the outerworks, you are supposed to be protected from opponent contact.
jajabinx124
27-02-2016, 23:42
Yes but the outerworks is not another carpet. If your robot is in your opponent's courtyard and your bumper is in the volume of the outerworks, you are supposed to be protected from opponent contact.
That's what I was trying to say.. sorry if it was unclear :P
As long as your robot is in contact with the opponents courtyard you can shoot. Rule G39: ROBOTS are prohibited from launching BOULDERS unless they are in contact with the opponent’s TOWER or carpet in the opponent’s COURTYARD, and not in contact with any other carpet.
That's nice, but irrelevant to the question at hand. It is quite possible to be in a position to NOT violate G39, and still be under the protection of G43. G43 applies whenever your opponents' bumpers are within the Outer Works (read: Defenses and their ramps).
The question now becomes, were the referees assuming that using that area to shoot nullifies the traverse attempt? I could see that being the case, the way G43 is written. But I don't want to try to get into the refs' heads on that, so I'll stop there.
Yes but the outerworks is not another carpet. If your robot is in your opponent's courtyard and your bumper is in the volume of the outerworks, you are supposed to be protected from opponent contact.
I watched a lot of Palmetto since we compete next week, I saw ZERO bots taking shots from outer works (with bumpers hanging) at Palmetto. So I don't think the opportunity and/or desirability came up. Could be teams in practice found that long range of shot unreliable is my guess. Almost all shots were taken from batter or back a several feet except for the one bot that nailed shots in auto from spy position. The prime shot zone was from halfway in courtyard to batter.
I too went in thinking that a cross and immediate shoot might be the way to go..but it may not be a realistic way to go. We'll certainly practice it and find out. Hope we get the vision thing down certainly would help. Lots to consider.
My feeling is the action is chaotic and relying on a ref to call fouls is a dubious endeavor. Even from a discrete quantitative visual scouting standpoint its nearly impossible to keep track so much going on.
Since we didn't get a ton of shot practice going in we'll have to find what works when we get there we have the entire field to choose from. Hope to find a few sweet spots.
jajabinx124
27-02-2016, 23:56
That's nice, but irrelevant to the question at hand. It is quite possible to be in a position to NOT violate G39, and still be under the protection of G43. G43 applies whenever your opponents' bumpers are within the Outer Works (read: Defenses and their ramps).
The question now becomes, were the referees assuming that using that area to shoot nullifies the traverse attempt? I could see that being the case, the way G43 is written. But I don't want to try to get into the refs' heads on that, so I'll stop there.
True. I didn't answer the previous question.
I think stopping and shooting would nullify the traverse attempt. Because to traverse means to move, pass, or go across. Say a robot is crossing a defense and stops with their bumpers hovering over the outerworks and then they shoot after they stop moving. Since they have stopped moving wouldn't it nullify it?
I'm not a 100% sure this is the best reasoning though.
Rangel(kf7fdb)
27-02-2016, 23:58
True. I didn't answer the previous question.
I think stopping and shooting would nullify the traverse attempt. Because to traverse means to move, pass, or go across. Say a robot is crossing a defense and stops with their bumpers hovering over the outerworks. Since they have stopped moving wouldn't it nullify it?
I'm not a 100% sure this is the best reasoning though.
Traversing is defined as having your robot's bumpers in the volume of the outerworks. That is in the rules and has been clarified in the Q&A and team updates. At least from my point of view that doesn't really seem debatable. If it is then we built the wrong robot...
Traversing is defined as having your robot's bumpers in the volume of the outerworks. That is in the rules and has been clarified in the Q&A and team updates. At least from my point of view that doesn't really seem debatable. If it is then we built the wrong robot...
I see no rule violation crossing stopping (touching their courtyard) shooting then continuing the traversal. A traversal is not defined as a singular action without pause. I think "bumper hanging" shots will be allowed if you continue into the courtyard after. Would be most efficient scoring if a team can pull it off. Why go further and then backtrack in if you don't have to?
MARS_James
28-02-2016, 00:04
First of all, congrats on the win! Very cool robot and the hanging and auto every round really looked cool. Do you think the lack of safe zone was a lack of knowledge by the referees and a mistake? I was under the impression that having your bumpers over the defenses was the only requirement to qualify as "traversing" and while you were traversing you were safe. It will be a very different type of competition than I thought it would be if no one is safe while they shoot.
Thanks.
We assumed like everyone else that as long as your bumper was over the outer works you could not be touched, from our perspective that was not how the rule was being called, attached is a screen shot from the stream of quarterfinal 1 match 1 where it is very obvious we have are actually contacting a defense, and yet no penalty was called, ironically it was announced as an "even more impressive, penalty free match". When we questioned after the match we were told the referees couldn't see it.
I just want to make it clear, I am not trying to bad mouth the volunteers at the event, in fact this was the first event I have ever attended where every volunteer, and employee of the venue were extraordinarily pleasant. I just wanted to show what was meant above.
jajabinx124
28-02-2016, 00:05
I see no rule violation shooting then continuing the traversal. A traversal is not defined as a singular action without pause.
Yeah. If the Q&A clarifies it (I think I'm looking at the right questions).. then it should be legal unless they clarify/change it in the team updates.
Rangel(kf7fdb)
28-02-2016, 00:07
I see no rule violation crossing stopping shooting then continuing the traversal. A traversal is not defined as a singular action without pause. I think "bumper hanging" shots will be allowed if you continue into the courtyard after.
By the definition of traversing, it should be allowed even if the robot doesn't finish going over. There are no rules forcing a robot to traverse if it ever started traversing. There are only rules protecting robots that are in the act of traversing.
We assumed like everyone else that as long as your bumper was over the outer works you could not be touched, from our perspective that was not how the rule was being called, attached is a screen shot from the stream of quarterfinal 1 match 1 where it is very obvious we have are actually contacting a defense, and yet no penalty was called, ironically it was announced as an "even more impressive, penalty free match". When we questioned after the match we were told the referees couldn't see it.
I just want to make it clear, I am not trying to bad mouth the volunteers at the event, in fact this was the first event I have ever attended where every volunteer, and employee of the venue were extraordinarily pleasant. I just wanted to show what was meant above.
Yea that's what I thought teams can't rely on that call. Thanks for verifying it.
MARS_James
28-02-2016, 00:11
I see no rule violation crossing stopping (touching their courtyard) shooting then continuing the traversal. A traversal is not defined as a singular action without pause. I think "bumper hanging" shots will be allowed if you continue into the courtyard after. Would be most efficient scoring if a team can pull it off. Why go further and then backtrack in if you don't have to?
This is the rule that makes it illegeal:
G40 A ROBOT may not cause a BOULDER to move from the NEUTRAL ZONE into the opponent’s
COURTYARD unless:
A. the ROBOT contacts the BOULDER within OUTER WORKS, and
B. the ROBOT completes its CROSSING (e.g. doesn’t completely back out of the OUTER
WORKS into the NEUTRAL ZONE)
They then define crossing:
CROSS an act performed by a ROBOT, such that it starts free of contact with an opponent
DEFENSE and completely in the NEUTRAL ZONE, traverses the DEFENSE such that
its BUMPERS go fully between the adjacent SHIELDS/GUARDRAIL, and ends up fully
contained by the opponent’s COURTYARD
By the definition of traversing, it should be allowed even if the robot doesn't finish going over. There are no rules forcing a robot to traverse if it ever started traversing. There are only rules protecting robots that are in the act of traversing.
Traversing to me and reading the rules means completing the action.. so if you don't end up in their courtyard fully IMO it won't count as a cross. So if you want 5 pts it seems you will have to cross fully (another 5 if you hit a HG in the process)
This is the rule that makes it illegeal:
G40 A ROBOT may not cause a BOULDER to move from the NEUTRAL ZONE into the opponent’s
COURTYARD unless:
A. the ROBOT contacts the BOULDER within OUTER WORKS, and
B. the ROBOT completes its CROSSING (e.g. doesn’t completely back out of the OUTER
WORKS into the NEUTRAL ZONE)
They then define crossing:
CROSS an act performed by a ROBOT, such that it starts free of contact with an opponent
DEFENSE and completely in the NEUTRAL ZONE, traverses the DEFENSE such that
its BUMPERS go fully between the adjacent SHIELDS/GUARDRAIL, and ends up fully
contained by the opponent’s COURTYARD
The way I read that rule is you cannot lob boulders into courtyard or act as a defense conduit... If a bot crosses pauses and completes the shot and continues to traverse then the boulder was properly introduced was it not? The robot in my scenario would not back up but continue on ant the boulder in their courtyard at shot time.
Rangel(kf7fdb)
28-02-2016, 00:18
Traversing to me and reading the rules means completing the action.. so if you don't end up in their courtyard fully IMO it won't count as a cross. So if you want 5 pts it seems you will have to cross fully (another 5 if you hit a HG in the process)
I was talking about specifically about scoring a high goal while your bumpers are resting in the outerworks. Finishing the cross doesn't mean anything since you only get points for going one way. This Q&A clarification helps reinforce the idea that you don't have to go over a defense to have the traversing benefit.
https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/Question/629/does-g43-apply-to-robots-that-are-physically-incapable-of-traversing-the-outerworks
I was talking about specifically about scoring a high goal while your bumpers are resting in the outerworks. Finishing the cross doesn't mean anything since you only get points for going one way. This Q&A clarification helps reinforce the idea that you don't have to go over a defense to have the traversing benefit.
https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/Question/629/does-g43-apply-to-robots-that-are-physically-incapable-of-traversing-the-outerworks
Are you resting your bumpers during a cross then continuing in or backing into them for protection after a valid cross?
Rangel(kf7fdb)
28-02-2016, 00:26
Are you resting your bumpers during a cross then continuing in or backing into them for protection after a valid cross?
The scenario I was talking about was backing into them for protection after a complete cross and then shooting. That being said, G43's not being called will hurt a lot of teams who made the scenario a primary shooting method. Hopefully missed G43's are the rarity rather than the norm.
jajabinx124
28-02-2016, 00:28
The scenario I was talking about was backing into them for protection after a complete cross and then shooting. That being said, G43's not being called will hurt a lot of teams who made the scenario a primary shooting method. Hopefully missed G43's are the rarity rather than the norm.
I hope so too. Cause that's our teams main strategy at lake superior for scoring boulders in the high goal.
The scenario I was talking about was backing into them for protection after a complete cross and then shooting. That being said, G43's not being called will hurt a lot of teams who made the scenario a primary shooting method. Hopefully missed G43's are the rarity rather than the norm.
You might want to notify the ref that's you intention it "should" be protected. However I'm not sure in real action if it'll get called all the time as 179 showed (refs have a lot to keep them busy) . Ref may not have good line of sight to your bumpers. There is no instant reply either.
Better have a plan B...we think alike and are rooting for it to be true as its in the rules. But real live action may dictate otherwise.
This is the rule that makes it illegeal:
G40 A ROBOT may not cause a BOULDER to move from the NEUTRAL ZONE into the opponent’s
COURTYARD unless:
A. the ROBOT contacts the BOULDER within OUTER WORKS, and
B. the ROBOT completes its CROSSING (e.g. doesn’t completely back out of the OUTER
WORKS into the NEUTRAL ZONE)
They then define crossing:
CROSS an act performed by a ROBOT, such that it starts free of contact with an opponent
DEFENSE and completely in the NEUTRAL ZONE, traverses the DEFENSE such that
its BUMPERS go fully between the adjacent SHIELDS/GUARDRAIL, and ends up fully
contained by the opponent’s COURTYARD
If you look at the examples in the blue boxes, particularly example B, there is no requirement for the robot to remain in contact with the Boulder throughout the Crossing.
If you look at the examples in the blue boxes, particularly example B, there is no requirement for the robot to remain in contact with the Boulder throughout the Crossing.
So Erich is it legal in your opinion like many of us envisioned to cross pause/shoot to then score both a HG and a successful cross in one action? (5 +5=10) then rinse repeat as long as we complete the crossing each time?
Cross...pause/shoot(bumper hang) ..continue into courtyard....exit...repeat
I have no delusions this is easy but do want to know if its an option to get those points/scoring moves efficiently as possible.
You might want to notify the ref that's you intention it should be protected. However I'm not sure in real action if it'll get called all the time as 179 showed.
Better have a plan B.
We didn't press the issue as it didn't affect the outcome of a match.
I'm fairly confident as the events move on this will be watched more closely and called more often. There were very few attempts made at shooting from the outer-works this weekend and they can't catch everything.
Ref's did a great job keeping track of defense crossings which was way more important in my book.
We didn't press the issue as it didn't affect the outcome of a match.
I'm fairly confident as the events move on this will be watched more closely and called more often. There were very few attempts made at shooting from the outer-works this weekend and they can't catch everything.
Ref's did a great job keeping track of defense crossings which was way more important in my book.
Concur again congratulations awesome 0.5 event and a well deserved win.
So Erich is it legal in your opinion like many of us envisioned to cross pause/shoot to then score both a HG and a successful cross in one action? (5 +5=10) then rinse repeat as long as we complete the crossing each time?
I have no delusions this is easy but do want to know if its an option to get those points efficiently.
You're sure you want to risk giving your opponents points based on my opinion?
To tell the truth, I saw that one myself, too. I actually want to say that I saw a Q&A about the topic, but I can't find it now (Q&A is really annoying to search through--don't they teach spelling in schools anymore?).
If I was you, I'd double-check at the drivers' meeting.
You're sure you want to risk giving your opponents points based on my opinion?
To tell the truth, I saw that one myself, too. I actually want to say that I saw a Q&A about the topic, but I can't find it now (Q&A is really annoying to search through--don't they teach spelling in schools anymore?).
If I was you, I'd double-check at the drivers' meeting.
I know you read the rules like I do and trust your judgement... I think its ok but that's just me, I'll have my drivers check
http://imgur.com/Yc1rrMY
I think its legal based on attached rules Q532 and 900
Game Manual - Game » Game Rules » Defense Rules
Q532 Q. "A robot carrying a boulder crosses a defense into their opponents' courtyard. They then move back such that a part of its bumpers are within the opponent’s outer works while their robot is still in contact with the courtyard carpet. They attempt to line up a shot, but an opponent contacts them. Does the opponent incur a G43 penalty?"
FRC3322 on 2016-01-14 | 16 Followers
A. This situation does demonstrate a violation of G43. Per G43: "A ROBOT is considered traversing the opponent’s OUTER WORKS if any part of its BUMPERS are within the opponent’s OUTER WORKS." Even if you are shooting a BOULDER, you would be protected by G43 if your BUMPERS are within the OUTER WORKS. <-----Rangles scenario OK
Q900 Q. In Regards to Rule G-39 My question is I have seen teams at Week 0 events parking on the COURTYARD side of the OUTER WORKS and in contact with one of the OUTER WORKS ramps and shooting the BOULDER, in my opinion this violates rule G-39 because the OUTER WORKS or sitting on top of carpet and the OUTER WORKS are defined as having an infinitely tall volume. We just need a clarification as of how this rule will be enforced.
FRC0313 on 2016-02-23
A. G39 prohibits launching BOULDERS unless a ROBOT is: "in contact with the opponent’s TOWER or carpet in the opponent’s COURTYARD, and not in contact with any other carpet." A ROBOT which is contacting the carpet in the opponent's COURTYARD and also contacting the PLATFORM ramps (or any other non-carpet part of the OUTER WORKS) meets these criteria and therefore is not in violation of G39 <---My scenario seems OK but will clarify
The Lucas
28-02-2016, 01:37
You're sure you want to risk giving your opponents points based on my opinion?
To tell the truth, I saw that one myself, too. I actually want to say that I saw a Q&A about the topic, but I can't find it now (Q&A is really annoying to search through--don't they teach spelling in schools anymore?).
If I was you, I'd double-check at the drivers' meeting.
Is it either of these Q&A
Q532 (https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/Question/532/a-robot-carrying-a-boulder-crosses-a-defense-into-their-opponents-courtyard-they-then-move-back-such-that-a-part-of-its-bumpers-are-within-the-opponent-s-outer-works-while-their-robot-is-still-in) in my judgement establishes that no matter what you are currently doing (lining up a shot in this case), if your bumpers are in Outer Works you in a protected traversal.
Q702 (https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/Question/702/g40-rules-and-the-blue-box-examples-only-discuss-when-a-boulder-is-pushed-dropped-in-the-courtyard-and-the-robot-backs-up-to-the-neutral-zone-without-completing-its-crossing-as-a-foul-if-a-robot-is) in my judgement establishes that Boulders entering the Courtyard (and possibly goal) and Crossings are independent events and in many cases the Boulder enters first. It builds upon the G40 Blue Box example B that robot must complete the Crossing after entering the Boulder, or at least not leave the Outer Works (abort the Crossing)
Is it either of these Q&A
Q532 (https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/Question/532/a-robot-carrying-a-boulder-crosses-a-defense-into-their-opponents-courtyard-they-then-move-back-such-that-a-part-of-its-bumpers-are-within-the-opponent-s-outer-works-while-their-robot-is-still-in) in my judgement establishes that no matter what you are currently doing (lining up a shot in this case), if your bumpers are in Outer Works you in a protected traversal.
Q702 (https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/Question/702/g40-rules-and-the-blue-box-examples-only-discuss-when-a-boulder-is-pushed-dropped-in-the-courtyard-and-the-robot-backs-up-to-the-neutral-zone-without-completing-its-crossing-as-a-foul-if-a-robot-is) in my judgement establishes that Boulders entering the Courtyard (and possibly goal) and Crossings are independent events and in many cases the Boulder enters first. It builds upon the G40 Blue Box example B that robot must complete the Crossing after entering the Boulder, or at least not leave the Outer Works (abort the Crossing)
That would be them.
The big problem is that neither one refers to G40 directly. Still a good question to ask the head ref (ideally with reference to these two questions in hand).
Eugene Fang
28-02-2016, 02:16
Any updates on the awards? TBA isn't updating anything on my end.
Small week 0.5 bug on our end... They're up now (:
Keefe2471
28-02-2016, 02:34
We assumed like everyone else that as long as your bumper was over the outer works you could not be touched, from our perspective that was not how the rule was being called, attached is a screen shot from the stream of quarterfinal 1 match 1 where it is very obvious we have are actually contacting a defense, and yet no penalty was called, ironically it was announced as an "even more impressive, penalty free match". When we questioned after the match we were told the referees couldn't see it.
I just want to make it clear, I am not trying to bad mouth the volunteers at the event, in fact this was the first event I have ever attended where every volunteer, and employee of the venue were extraordinarily pleasant. I just wanted to show what was meant above.
Perfect example James. This is exactly what I was talking about. The Q629 (https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/Question/629/does-g43-apply-to-robots-that-are-physically-incapable-of-traversing-the-outerworks) seems like it very clearly defines what qualifies as traversing and therefor protected. I'm hopeful that as high goal scoring becomes more popular this is a more heavily stressed penalty. It seems like something that should be clearly visible to the ref in each corner of the courtyards.
It is a fairly specific reading of the rules that defines the safe zone and I can see how it could be missed. Is the training for the referees something FIRST releases to the public or something they keep in house?
Thanks for putting together this reply.
Ginger Power
28-02-2016, 03:05
Is the training for the referees something FIRST releases to the public or something they keep in house?
I haven't personally taken the training, but I'm managing 30 volunteers at North Dakota State University, and three of them are referees. I will say that the test for referees takes over 3 hours, and it is far from easy. I heard from one head referee that it was the hardest test he's ever taken, bar-none.
FIRST has taken many steps to improve the program, and a big focus seems to be volunteer training. Have faith that the referees have been thoroughly screened, and know the game well. I can't speak to how open the referee test is to the public.
Keefe2471
28-02-2016, 03:22
I haven't personally taken the training, but I'm managing 30 volunteers at North Dakota State University, and three of them are referees. I will say that the test for referees takes over 3 hours, and it is far from easy. I heard from one head referee that it was the hardest test he's ever taken, bar-none.
FIRST has taken many steps to improve the program, and a big focus seems to be volunteer training. Have faith that the referees have been thoroughly screened, and know the game well. I can't speak to how open the referee test is to the public.
I'm sure it's great. I was honestly just curious, and want to take a look at it. I was not attempting to be critical of any volunteers or refs.
Sorry if it came of that way.
Bluman56
28-02-2016, 03:22
I haven't personally taken the training, but I'm managing 30 volunteers at North Dakota State University, and three of them are referees. I will say that the test for referees takes over 3 hours, and it is far from easy. I heard from one head referee that it was the hardest test he's ever taken, bar-none.
FIRST has taken many steps to improve the program, and a big focus seems to be volunteer training. Have faith that the referees have been thoroughly screened, and know the game well. I can't speak to how open the referee test is to the public.
I don't know about the referee test, but the inspector test is still far too easy. There are going to be scenarios that inspectors should be ready for and the test should point out pitfalls that teams usually overlook. Inspectors should be able to know from the test to look for certain things on robots that teams think is legal but is actually not. I still don't feel the test covers those scenarios well enough. Maybe I'm alone on this one, considering I don't see much discussion on it.
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