View Full Version : Scaling the Tower
What is your team's strategy involving the low bar and hanging on the tower.
Edit - Yes I see the yest instead of yes
I voted yes for both, but our climber is being developed as an "if we have time" addition for if we actually have our scoring mechanisms working semi-reliably before build stop. It all depends on the next week or so of build, and there's a decent chance that we will not do it.
Same thing for us as Whippet says, our focus is breaching the defenses, then shooting low/high goals, then scaling if we have the time to develop it before stop day. I think that the best robots will be able to scale, because it's essentially a free 10 points that a lot of teams are just discounting as too difficult. The difficulty lies in developing it before the end of the build season.
orangemoore
01-02-2016, 10:23
We are also attempting low and hanging. But that is only the plan it isn't reality yet.
We plan to do both - just not necessarily at our first event. (districts are so cool!)
Sperkowsky
01-02-2016, 10:49
We are attempting both and it looks good. The climbing mechanism is pretty much done just waiting on some sponsor made parts and it's made to articulate.
We plan to do both - just not necessarily at our first event. (districts are so cool!)
Is everyone just doing the hanging mechanism as the last thing on the priority list?
Zebra_Fact_Man
01-02-2016, 13:15
Is everyone just doing the hanging mechanism as the last thing on the priority list?
Our lifting mechanism also doubles as our defense articulating mechanism, so, nope.
IronicDeadBird
01-02-2016, 13:17
Is anyone planning on assisting another team and helping them scale?
Ginger Power
01-02-2016, 13:17
All I'm learning from these CD polls is that teams are incredibly optimistic at this point in the build season. Going under the low bar and climbing is going to be pretty rare.
Is everyone just doing the hanging mechanism as the last thing on the priority list?
It's not so much that it's the last thing on the priority list - it's actually 3rd on ours for game-specific strategies - it's just that to meaningfully prototype and design it, we kind of need a 'complete' robot.
Strategically, the ability to scale is pretty high. From a design standpoint, it's something we can iterate on our practice bot after ship day to get a good system. We want to make sure the rest of the robot is rock-solid* as well.
*boulder-solid?
Is everyone just doing the hanging mechanism as the last thing on the priority list?
I think so. At the district events, the most important things will be breaching, and capturing the tower. If you can do one or both of those things well, you have a decent shot at getting to the District Championship or Worlds, depending on how your local FIRST events are structured.
Once you get to District Champs and Worlds, is when scaling will be more important, because everyone will be *very good* and every extra point will count. That is why I think most people are leaving it as a low priority now, but it will be more important once you get closer to Worlds.
Is everyone just doing the hanging mechanism as the last thing on the priority list?
Definitely not. Scailing is above high goal shooting for us, but below most of the defenses.
MrJohnston
01-02-2016, 13:48
We plan to have a low robot that scales, but the climbing mechanism is our lowest priority.... It's in development and should work at some point this season - likely for our first event, but...
Chris Endres
01-02-2016, 15:43
Is everyone just doing the hanging mechanism as the last thing on the priority list?
no.
Drive is last priority. :yikes:
Jim Wilks
01-02-2016, 15:53
All I'm learning from these CD polls is that teams are incredibly optimistic at this point in the build season. Going under the low bar and climbing is going to be pretty rare.
Planning on doing both is not rare at all.
Actually doing both will be rare.
Jon Stratis
01-02-2016, 16:02
Is everyone just doing the hanging mechanism as the last thing on the priority list?
That's an interesting question. I think it's the lowest item on the priority list that we've been actively working on, but that doesn't mean we don't plan to have it complete by bag day. Rather that other items, like drive train, electronics, and boulder manipulations are considered more critical/important to accomplish. Hanging is great, but it's just the last 20 seconds of the match. If all you can do is hang, then your use the rest of the match may be questionable. Instead, if you can take care of defenses or boulders, you can be useful the entire match, even if you can't hang. So, by necessity hanging becomes lower priority.
There are other items that are even lower than hanging on our priority list. For example, while we plan to be able to do several of the defensive groups ourselves, we probably won't be able to do all of them. Space, weight, and time constraints all are considerations. But, they are still on the list, just low enough down that they aren't being actively worked on, and likely won't be.
MrForbes
01-02-2016, 16:07
Scaling is pretty low on our list...it doesn't contribute much to getting ranking points. But then, manipulating the moving defenses is also pretty low on our list. And shooting high goals is behind a few other things...like being able to get through most of the defenses (with assistance from our alliance partners), and collecting boulders, and getting rid of boulders
Scaling is the first thing we dropped from the "want to do everything" list. We're building to defeat all but the draw bridge and sally port solo, and secondarily to have a good pickup and score high goals in auto or teleop.
Is everyone just doing the hanging mechanism as the last thing on the priority list?
For us it was the very first prototype unit made... hanging is important to this game to be in final alliance
spaghetticat97
01-02-2016, 20:24
Is everyone just doing the hanging mechanism as the last thing on the priority list?
not exactly, our team is planning to use extending hooks attached to our launcher so its about as important to us as launching
That's an interesting question. I think it's the lowest item on the priority list that we've been actively working on, but that doesn't mean we don't plan to have it complete by bag day. Rather that other items, like drive train, electronics, and boulder manipulations are considered more critical/important to accomplish. Hanging is great, but it's just the last 20 seconds of the match. If all you can do is hang, then your use the rest of the match may be questionable. Instead, if you can take care of defenses or boulders, you can be useful the entire match, even if you can't hang. So, by necessity hanging becomes lower priority.
There are other items that are even lower than hanging on our priority list. For example, while we plan to be able to do several of the defensive groups ourselves, we probably won't be able to do all of them. Space, weight, and time constraints all are considerations. But, they are still on the list, just low enough down that they aren't being actively worked on, and likely won't be.
Yeah, it's kind of the same for our team. In past years, we've had to develop a relatively simple drive base and a manipulator on top - easy
This year, we have to develop a complex drive base and a laucher, and a climbing mechanism, and a sally port / portcullis articulator, ect. This year has been much harder to strategize and many more things to design and build (let alone practice)
Robotboy12
04-02-2016, 15:33
What is the estimated amount of power needed to lift the robot up the tower using a winch type mechanism.
Ginger Power
04-02-2016, 15:40
What is the estimated amount of power needed to lift the robot up the tower using a winch type mechanism.
This Much Power (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fyksXAgL7L0)
I'd recommend checking out the linear mechanism tab of the 2016 JVN Calculator. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/3188)
Jon Stratis
04-02-2016, 15:42
What is the estimated amount of power needed to lift the robot up the tower using a winch type mechanism.
In BreakAway, my team climbed using a single CIM motor, through a Dewalt transmission and an additional small reduction with chain to the winch. Not terribly fast.
In Ultimate Ascent, we climbed using two mini-CIMs through a toughbox mini transmission, direct drive on the winch. Fairly fast for the lifting portion.
So, the amount needed I would say is one CIM. But more power means a faster climb, and fast climbs are probably going to be useful.
Robotboy12
04-02-2016, 15:46
Thanks
Robotboy12
04-02-2016, 15:49
Does anyone else have any input? I like the idea of the two mini sims but I am open to any other ideas.
how bout 4 CIMS?
They are already on your robot
Robotboy12
04-02-2016, 16:05
how bout 4 CIMS?
They are already on your robot
That may be too much!
electroken
04-02-2016, 16:22
Does anyone else have any input? I like the idea of the two mini sims but I am open to any other ideas.
In Ultimate Ascent our 2nd level climber used a winch powered by a cimulator gearbox with 2 RS-550 motors. It wasn't fast, but it was fast enough. That robot was within a pound of maximum.
http://www.ingenuityne.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/8697569343_ed99820059_o.jpg
Robotboy12
04-02-2016, 16:26
I like that idea.
Ginger Power
04-02-2016, 16:28
That may be too much!
There's no such thing as too much power! What Bruceb is referring to is a PTO shifter. Like this (http://www.andymark.com/PTO-p/am-rocketbox.htm) one from AndyMark. It allows you to use the power of your drive motors for another function.
Another idea would be to use a 775pro in a versa planetary with whatever gear ratio that you think you need. 120:1 seems like it would work. I'm not 100% sure how the 775pro would perform in that type of application, but it has plenty of power.
Bob Steele
04-02-2016, 18:02
What is the estimated amount of power needed to lift the robot up the tower using a winch type mechanism.
That would depend on how fast you want to lift.
Robot weight in Newtons * height(meters) you are lifting your center of mass
divide by how fast you want to do it... (in seconds)
this gives you the minimum power in watts for the lift.
of course you do have some energy going to heat and friction but at least you will see the minimum amount of power you need.
You will also have to consider at what current you are running your motor(s) to determine what the power output is going to be. Look at your motor curves, etc.
At least it will put you in the ballpark.
300 watts of power can do 300 joules of work in 1 second.
If robot weighs in at 680 Newtons (around 150 lbs).... and you lift 1 meter you will need 680 Joules of work to be done.
If you do it in 10 seconds you only need 68 watts of power for that time.
If you do it in 1 second you will need 680 watts of power for that time.
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