First seed alliance captain: Low Bar or not?

[Bluman56]

The #1 seed at every event will be a low bar bot.

I made this bold prediction not expecting to be 100% accurate, but with so many events going on this weekend, I am starting to get curious. So far, GTCR and Waterford Event (FIM District) have a low bar capable robot as the first seed alliance captain. Can we keep track of this statistic if anyone else is interested?

I apologize in advance for not being able to give out gift cards for the fastest contributors... Maybe one day :p

[MARS_James]

We were low bar capable at Palmetto, however never once did we cross it, or actually become a height capable to do so. So technically one could argue that we were not a low bar robot.

[jojoguy10]

1983 (Skunkworks) is low bar capable and #1 seed here at Auburn Mountainview.

[Kingland093]

Number 1 seed at Northern Lights, team 2987 is Low-bar capable
At Lake superior, I think 4009 is able to but I could be wrong

[MikLast]

5920 (1st seed at PNW West Valley) was low bar capable.

[Dibit1010]

Well it is an easier and quicker defense to cross eliminating the need to cross, say the drawbridge, which takes more time. This gives you more rp faster and a quicker cycle time

[evanperryg]

3683 was #1 at GTRC and could do low bar. They did it regularly, too.

[Munchskull]

Not surprising. However it will be the tall 2nd pick that will win stronghold.

[EricH]

5805 at San Diego looked to be low-bar capable.

However, their best defense was the Portcullis, taken at full speed.

[Boltman]

5805 at San Diego looked to be low-bar capable.

However, their best defense was the Portcullis, taken at full speed.

5805 is low bar capable, they did awesome for a rookie team pretty much securing #1 the entire qualifications they earned RAS

[juju_beans]

5805 is low bar capable, they did awesome for a rookie team pretty much securing #1 the entire qualifications they earned RAS
So many things went wrong afterwards... my team's autonomous lowbar got caught for the first time (we actually had the highest auto score in quals at 186), our alliance wasn't able to feed balls fast enough to our shooter 3882 (which had the highest points of goals at 190) and after 5805 ran over us one of our pipes got loose and we lost all of our air and weren't able to scale.

Then the second match 3882's camera broke and they couldn't aim and near the end all 3 of our robots froze for a few seconds and 3647's hook got caught behind thr hanging bar.

[Giantwalker]

238 number one seed at Granite State is low bar capable.

[Kristian Calhoun]

25 at Hatboro-Horsham is low bar capable. :cool:

[Boltman]

So many things went wrong afterwards... my team's autonomous lowbar got caught for the first time (we actually had the highest auto score in quals at 186), our alliance wasn't able to feed balls fast enough to our shooter 3882 (which had the highest points of goals at 190) and after 5805 ran over us one of our pipes got loose and we lost all of our air and weren't able to scale.

Then the second match 3882's camera broke "our shooter was not connected at end of the QF" and they couldn't aim and near the end all 3 of our robots froze for a few seconds and 3647's hook got caught behind thr hanging bar.

Ya tell me about it... our shooter hex shaft broke in QF we were very lucky the Top Hats THANK YOU !!!!! happened to have the exact size laying around. and we had about an hour between our QF and SF since we were first up as alliance 8. I cannot believe we fixed it in time. It was amazing and tons of work to drill tap and attach.

We are going to a Steel Hex shaft in CV.

Also our camera was bent too "went unnoticed" in massive repair commotion so we were driving blind in SF and then our shooter jammed the ball in SF.... I think 3255 lost their drive train in QF too and another bot on their alliance in QF had issues too. It happens.

Basically in this game expect to be broken, and bring every spare part possible. We let our alliance down due to that our shooter was jamming in SF, we are doing everything possible not to have that issue next week in central valley. We'll need to be flawless to beat that amazing world-class field. But we have practice :)

[Richard Wallace]

1918 at FiM Standish-Sterling is low bar capable, if I am reading this post (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1550932&postcount=8) correctly.

[Nuwanda]

1918 at FiM Standish-Sterling is low bar capable, if I am reading this post (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1550932&postcount=8) correctly.

Your assumption was accurate. They had a pretty consistent low bar/high goal auton as well.

[Dezion]

NC Guilford County's 1st seed was a Low Bar capable robot, but the first seed's first pick was a non low-bar capable robot. (They go on losing to Alliance #8, three low bar capable robots).

[Lij2015]

Chesapeake: Northern Virginia's #1 seed (and subsequent winner) 2363 was low bar capable.

[BeardyMentor]

Not surprising. However it will be the tall 2nd pick that will win stronghold.


1257 with 5624 and 1676 (Thanks to our alliance partners!!) won Mount Olive District with all 3 low bar capable

[Captain_Kirch]

The low bar is the easiest obstacle if you fit, and most teams fit. Low bar capable or not #1 robots likely won't use the low bar because they're hitting the defenses their partners cant.

This is further supported by the way these early competition number 1 seeds get the number 1 seed, breaching. Right now, great breacher = high seed. We've yet to see teams that can capture consistently, maybe those teams stick to the low bar, or maybe they do it all. Who knows?

[Boltman]

The low bar is the easiest obstacle if you fit, and most teams fit. Low bar capable or not #1 robots likely won't use the low bar because they're hitting the defenses their partners cant.

This is further supported by the way these early competition number 1 seeds get the number 1 seed, breaching. Right now, great breacher = high seed. We've yet to see teams that can capture consistently, maybe those teams stick to the low bar, or maybe they do it all. Who knows?

The problem with capture is a HG is 5 or LG is 2 ..... a cross twice is 10 so all top seeds get there by A) more points and B) an easier RP...cycle times are faster on breaching bots than HG shooters that take time to line up shots or have to go all the way to the LG...so in every regional the breechers will for the most part be captains .... and any hybrid breech/HG shooters but they will be mid alliance captains. That leaves out bots that only shoot to be lapped up in alliance selections and "fed" in eliminations. Excellent breech/HG like 179 are so good they will be #1 ...but that is very rare so far. I expect this week3 we'll see another 179-level or two

Glad we are a great breacher low bot that can shoot/feed and scale we guessed right what qualities would work this year. Very glad we can "do it all"except HG so far as it wasn't "needed" much or worth the risk of wasted time on miss..it helps immensely in this years game. we learned a lesson last year we must be able to score ourselves a lot of points no matter what partners we have...seems to work so far. We'll see this week how round two goes. Each year we apply past years learning..hopefully next year they finally listen and finish the bot in week 4 to get practice time in.

[Roborunner230]

At the Waterbury event, most alliance captains, if not all, were lot bar bots. (I don't entirely remember)
That included seeds 1-5.

[The other Gabe]

1983 (Skunkworks) is low bar capable and #1 seed here at Auburn Mountainview.

they didnt shoot high goal and were first seed (which speaks to how well they played every other aspect of the game, not that there were a lack of good bots there :v ). the top 4 seeded robots at that event were low bar capable

[tuxzee]

At Lake superior, I think 4009 is able to but I could be wrong

At Lake Superior, both 4009 and 359 (#1 captain and #1 pick) could go under the low bar; however, neither of us actually did in any of the elim matches. We left that up to the 3rd alliance member, 6175.

[GCarnes]

Team 5150 was 1st seed alliance captain at FIM Kettering #1 as a low bar robot. We were able to breach the defenses every qualification match which is what kept us on top. We had a robot specifically designed and focused around breaching the defenses.

[P.J.]

3604, 1st seed at the Southfield District, was low bar capable.

After looking through the rest of this thread it looks like the only question remaining is whether team 56 (1st seed at Mt. Olive) was low bar capable.

[jwfoss]

FRC558 is low bar capable and was #1 seed at NE Waterbury District

[samefman]

I made this bold prediction not expecting to be 100% accurate, but with so many events going on this weekend, I am starting to get curious. So far, GTCR and Waterford Event (FIM District) have a low bar capable robot as the first seed alliance captain. Can we keep track of this statistic if anyone else is interested?

I apologize in advance for not being able to give out gift cards for the fastest contributors... Maybe one day :p
I just came from the week 1 district event at Mount Olive (MAR) and I recall only seeing a handful of tall robots. (Tall meaning that it can't fit under the low bar).
Statistically speaking, if a majority of the robots at a competition can go under the low bar, it's likely that the highest seeded robot will be, too. I don't think that it's this hypothetical teams ability to go under the low bar that makes them the highest seed. I personally see no correlation.

[MARS_James]

After looking through the rest of this thread it looks like the only question remaining is whether team 56 (1st seed at Mt. Olive) was low bar capable.

Yes, yes they were.

[Bluman56]

375 at NYC Regional was low bar capable.
1678 at Central Valley was low bar capable.
2056 at GTRE was low bar capable.

I think 3158 at Mexico City was not low bar capable...

[Jeremy Germita]

1197 at Los Angeles was not low bar capable.

[Joe Ross]

1197 was first seed alliance captain at Los Angeles, and was not low bar capable. However, they were Sally Port capable.

[Chris Hapstack]

B.o.B. was the #1 seed at FIM Lakeview, and we're quite low bar-capable!

[CalTran]

Greater KC, 1986 is low bar capable. (Really, they're everything capable, but that's a different thread...)

[Abhishek R]

Alamo; 148 is low-bar capable.

[dodar]

Orlando: 233 was #1 and Low Bar capable.

[yonip]

1418 was first seed in greater dc district in chesapeake and low bar capable

[smcmahon]

1126 was the #1 Seed at Greater Pittsburgh. They were able to pass under the Low Bar.

[Richard Wallace]

2767 Stryke Force seeded first at FiM St. Joseph, and is low bar capable.

[arizonafoxx]

T-Rex 4935 is low bar capable and was #1 seed in Raleigh NC Wake County.

[dmorewood]

Not surprising. However it will be the tall 2nd pick that will win stronghold.

Actually we won our first event with all low bar capable robots and we actually managed to beat alliances with tall robots that were very good high shots.

[Jay O'Donnell]

319 was #1 at North Shore and was low bar capable.

[jojoguy10]

Team 1425 at Wilsonville PNW was low bar capable

[mwmac]

2122 came in under the low bar to take the #1 seed at AZ North.

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

So after two weeks of competition, there's been only 1 non-low bar capable #1 seed. Guess even the powerhouses decided to go low.

[LlNUX]

I think 3158 at Mexico City was not low bar capable...

Thats correct 3158 was not low bar capable but their shooter was really accurate and did cycles pretty fast.

[Alpha Beta]

So after two weeks of competition, there's been only 1 non-low bar capable #1 seed. Guess even the powerhouses decided to go low.

Why do so many top teams end up going low?

1. Powerhouses weren't going to blame the lack of a breach on a random alliance partners getting irrevocably stuck on a defense. They assumed it would happen and wanted to make sure they could still do the other 4. (By themselves if necessary.)
2. Class C defenses are a time suck. In eliminations top alliances are still skipping them, making low bar a faster option if capable.
3. Some of them dreamed of 2 ball autonomous modes. Low bar gave a consistent option for them to design around.
4. They remember what aggressive defense felt like in 2014 and keeping the center of gravity low to avoid being flipped correlated well with the low goal.
5. Parabolic shot trajectories from short robots can still be unblockable from the outerworks given the height restrictions of the defenses.

[TheNerdJedi]

Why do so many top teams end up going low?

1. Powerhouses weren't going to blame the lack of a breach on a random alliance partners getting irrevocably stuck on a defense. They assumed it would happen and wanted to make sure they could still do the other 4. (By themselves if necessary.)
2. Class C defenses are a time suck. In eliminations top alliances are still skipping them, making low bar a faster option if capable.
3. Some of them dreamed of 2 ball autonomous modes. Low bar gave a consistent option for them to design around.
4. They remember what aggressive defense felt like in 2014 and keeping the center of gravity low to avoid being flipped correlated well with the low goal.
5. Parabolic shot trajectories from short robots can still be unblockable from the outerworks given the height restrictions of the defenses.


Alpha Beta is right, with the ability to do "everything" teams do not have to rely on their team mates to make sure they rank high.

But one thing that bugged me in the matches was the fact that low bots were often the ones that got run over by other bots in matches. Teams should take care into consideration of making sure that their robot is robustly built. I've seen robots that have gotten disabled in math due to another robot running them over.

[Legator91]

So after two weeks of competition, there's been only 1 non-low bar capable #1 seed. Guess even the powerhouses decided to go low.

Take my team for example. Going low was the best option. By ensuring you could go through the low bar you always gave yourself an easy entrance and exit to the courtyard. It also meant that our robot would have a low CG making the chance of tipping over much lower. This made it much easier for us to go over other defenses like the moat, wall, and rough terrain. Plus, the low bar is one of the easiest defenses to get through (if you fit), so it helps ensure a quick cycle time.

This also gave us the confidence that our robot could defeat each defense, score, and hang. That way no matter what teams were on our alliance we could easily adapt to perform the needed tasks.

The 15 inch rule allowed us to package our entire ball intake and shooter outside of the frame. This made packaging low much easier.

[Hikel team 319]

319 is a low bar bot, was number one seed (and event winner with 1058 and 6161) at North Shore District.

[JABot67]

Now that 2 weeks of competition have played out, I honestly don't see what's so terrifying about the plethora of low bar capable robots. It was the right call for my team, and likely the same for most others who made the decision. As member of #TeamRhinoTreads, it is great to have a defense we can traverse both backward and forward. We used it a whole lot as a way of getting between the courtyard and the neutral zone.

[Citrus Dad]

5. Parabolic shot trajectories from short robots can still be unblockable from the outerworks given the height restrictions of the defenses.

It's not the shot that will get blocked necessarily--it's the camera sight. Watch for more blockers to proliferate. I think every elim alliance had one at CVR.

[Richard Wallace]

I suppose the terrifying scenario might have been too many robots with poor/no boulder score capability, having sacrificed that to get low bar capability. I did see some robots like that, but not enough to penalize high seed (1 & 2) alliances very much.

Brave little toasters are becoming less common. That is a good thing. :)

[jSchnitz]

It's not the shot that will get blocked necessarily--it's the camera sight. Watch for more blockers to proliferate. I think every elim alliance had one at CVR.

As did most alliances at GKC, but even a 4'6" vision-blocking blocker wasn't bad if a team had practiced against one. If a blocker were to be a problem, I see no reason that a 15 inch robot couldn't find some a method to, say, see over that blocker. It'd be awfully hard to stop a bot that could always see over and shoot over a defender from the safety of the outer works.

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

As did most alliances at GKC, but even a 4'6" vision-blocking blocker wasn't bad if a team had practiced against one. If a blocker were to be a problem, I see no reason that a 15 inch robot couldn't find some a method to, say, see over that blocker. It'd be awfully hard to stop a bot that could always see over and shoot over a defender from the safety of the outer works.

Agreed. Especially if the outerworks shooter is not using camera tracking to line up, a blocker simply decreases line up accuracy and not by very much to an unblockable robot. 498 tried blocking us at AZ North but to no success and took it off in the second finals match.

[Michael Corsetto]

Agreed. Especially if the outerworks shooter is not using camera tracking to line up, a blocker simply decreases line up accuracy and not by very much to an unblockable robot. 498 tried blocking us at AZ North but to no success and took it off in the second finals match.

118 clearly demonstrated in their reveal video that a lob shot can go in, even with a full size blocker in front of them.

How effective is a shooter that doesn't use vision and/or flashlight to align? That is TBD.

Do you have video of North AZ Finals? I see blue alliance made three high goal shots in F1 and zero in F2. Did 498 shot blocking play a part in that?

-Mike

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

118 clearly demonstrated in their reveal video that a lob shot can go in, even with a full size blocker in front of them.

How effective is a shooter that doesn't use vision and/or flashlight to align? That is TBD.

Do you have video of North AZ Finals? I see blue alliance made three high goal shots in F1 and zero in F2. Did 498 shot blocking play a part in that?

-Mike

Hopefully will have video uploaded by today. The first three shots went in from the outerworks. A critical air leak stopped all balls from going in after that(including all of finals 2). Granted three shots isn't a good data bunch but with just aligning in our practice at the shop(no photon cannon) we seemed to have about an 80% accuracy with not that much practice.

[Michael Corsetto]

Hopefully will have video uploaded by today. The first three shots went in from the outerworks. A critical air leak stopped all balls from going in after that(including all of finals 2). Granted three shots isn't a good estimate but with just aligning in our practice at the shop(no photon cannon) we seemed to have about an 80% accuracy with not that much practice.

Understood. Bummer on the air leak! That stinks.

From our experience, manually lining up from OW, especially with tall defenses between you and the robot, is hard to do. And our robot is taller than many when in shooting position, so visibility is less of a concern for us than other designs.

Looking forward to watching the video when its available. Congrats on the finalist finish!

-Mike

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

Understood. Bummer on the air leak! That stinks.

From our experience, manually lining up from OW, especially with tall defenses between you and the robot, is hard to do. And our robot is taller than many when in shooting position, so visibility is less of a concern for us than other designs.

Looking forward to watching the video when its available. Congrats on the finalist finish!

-Mike

It's definitely harder on some defenses more than others. Impossible for our robot height to manually align on the drawbridge for example. For AZ North our drivers were only really trained to shoot from defenses 3 and 4. We hope to extend that side to side range for Las Vegas. I do have to give credit for our driver though on how she is able to instinctively compensate on how she should be lined up depending on where she is shooting from. Looking at the robot after aligning with the photon is also a good way to help them practice aligning without it. Overall though our photon has a very large height range so we don't expect to have to manually align that often. Just something we are able to do just in case. For championships, I expect blockers to not be worth the time if it only slightly decreases accuracy. I've been proven wrong before though so we shall see.

[AdamHeard]

Hopefully will have video uploaded by today. The first three shots went in from the outerworks. A critical air leak stopped all balls from going in after that(including all of finals 2). Granted three shots isn't a good data bunch but with just aligning in our practice at the shop(no photon cannon) we seemed to have about an 80% accuracy with not that much practice.

That's still solid.

A lot of teams couldn't do 3 shots under defense... You did 3 and could've done more!

[EricH]

Why do so many top teams end up going low?

1. Powerhouses weren't going to blame the lack of a breach on a random alliance partners getting irrevocably stuck on a defense. They assumed it would happen and wanted to make sure they could still do the other 4. (By themselves if necessary.)
2. Class C defenses are a time suck. In eliminations top alliances are still skipping them, making low bar a faster option if capable.

One of the two non-low-bar captains made a pretty decent living doing a Class C in AUTO(and in teleop). And showed Class A ability in elims, too.

1197 designed to be capable of handling anything that isn't low bar. Part of that was figuring out that with everybody else going low, we didn't need to!

[BenjiSG]

Team 4564 Orange Chaos was the first seed alliance captain at the WPI NE District Qualifier, and they were low bar-capable sure enough.

[Boltman]

CVR...1678 is low bar limbo bot as captain #1

[kannr0604]

#7 seed/winner and alliance captain 839 at NE WPI District event is low bar, and the first seeded was 4564 Orange Chaos and they were low bar as well and made it to Semi-finals.

[CalTran]

2481 went an astounding sixteen match undefeated streak without ever going under the low bar at Illinois

[Anthony Galea]

1481 at Center Line was low-bar capable

[M217]

359 was low-bar capable at Tech Valley, although they didn't really use it so much. Incidentally, so were, I believe, all of the top 8 seeded machines.

[Cam877]

As for MAR this week, both 11(Chestnut hill) and 2590(Seneca) are both low bar capable.

[mmorauske]

FIM St Joseph event. #1 seed 2767 was low bar capable and their first pick, #2 seed 3620 was as well.

[yonip]

CHS Hampton Roads event #1 seed 2363 was low bar capable, I believe

[Joe Ross]

973 was #2 seed at Ventura, and is a tall robot. They were only 5 autonomous points from being #1 seed. #1 seed was low bar.

[Hikel team 319]

319 is a low bar bot. They were number one seed and event winner at both North Shore and UNH District events.

[Woolly]

1806 has low bar capability and was the #1 seed and winner at Oklahoma.

[JedG]

4039, the number one seed at Buckeye was a low bar bot.

[Joe Ross]

3476 is not low bar capable and was first seed alliance captain at Orange County.

[M217]

1114 is Low-Bar Capable at Waterloo.

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

987 is low bar capable at Las Vegas.

[Sperkowsky]

5736 was #1 seed at SBPLI and low bar capable.

[Arhowk]

We (1684) were not low bar capable (cool kids club) at Lansing (though we were designed with the ability to rip off our upper structure if our alliance has no low bar robot). 33 at Troy was low bar capable.

[AustinNordman]

Code Orange 3476 is not low bar capable and just won the Orange County Regional (with 3309 and 6220) as a 1st seed.

[CrazyMohawk]

#1 seed 1540 Flaming Chickens was low bar capable but #2 seed and first pick 2471 Team Mean Machine was not at Oregon City

[KaseyB]

4469 at Auburn District is not low bar capable and is the #1 seed.

[Brian Maher]

1257 seeded first at Bridgewater-Raritan and is low bar capable, as is our first pick, 25.