View Full Version : Possible interference during San Diego Finals
https://vid.me/aKYg
Maybe a biased opinion for obvious reasons, but I don't think any of the refs saw this. What is your opinion/interpretation on this?
interpretTHIS
06-03-2016, 05:36
This looks like a clear judgment made on T20. Note the blue box. If it was determined that it didn't affect the outcome of the match in the opinion of the head ref, then the ARENA FAULT doesn't have to result in a replay.
rich2202
06-03-2016, 05:38
Scary. Must be a small venue if spectators can get that close.
Glad to see that safety is the number one concern /s
I would have thought that there would be an "exclusion" zone around the field, not just to protect gameplay but to protect spectators from injury, that child could have easily been injured. Robot Drivers and Operators, have a tough job already, without having to look for hands and arms inside the field. Yes, it could have quite possibly been a small venue, but if the venue is so small that there isn't enough room for a safe zone around the field, then venue needs to be bigger
It was in the Del Mar arena which is usually for horse shows... and yes its a smaller venue. You could literally almost stand right behind the drive team if you wanted . There really were not enough viewing seats since only half of the field had seats the other was the backdrop for the video.
As for the kid grabbing the ball... it did not affect the outcome. Pretty sure the refs were focused on the aggressive defense being played. I was pretty stunned at how much teams played defense in San Diego...even we did when our ball got stuck, pretty amazed we did that and were not bad at it.
steelerborn
06-03-2016, 11:40
Which match was this in?
The point difference in the third match was only one ball.
So if it was in that match, it would really affect the outcome.
And would have forced a fourth final match.
It looked like the ball was right in the corner of the field and would have been harder to intake.
Perhaps slowing the alliance down by one goal.
I also think the refs might have missed it there is a lot to follow on the field.
The kid picked up and threw the ball with no bots around I don't see a big issue there other than kid safety pretty sure it did not effect that games ultimate outcome at all.
rich2202
06-03-2016, 17:14
I also think the refs might have missed it there is a lot to follow on the field.
Ref's are watching the Bots. If there is no bot around, Ref's would not likely to be looking there.
The Spy in the Spy Box was oblivious to the kid next to him.
Doug Frisk
06-03-2016, 17:16
The kid picked up and threw the ball with no bots around I don't see a big issue there other than kid safety pretty sure it did not effect that games ultimate outcome at all.
What was the score on that? Clearly that red robot decided they couldn't pick up the ball in the corner, so by moving it into the field where it was accessible it did have the potential to affect the outcome.
Pretty sure I'd have smacked the field E-Stop if presented with that situation. I hope someone impressed upon that kid the importance of staying a safe distance.
IronicDeadBird
06-03-2016, 17:24
This should not have happened, the rules are clear children under 12 aren't allowed in the pit without adult supervision why these same rules aren't in place for the field is beyond me.
This should not have happened, the rules are clear children under 12 aren't allowed in the pit without adult supervision why these same rules aren't in place for the field is beyond me.
G30 states:
Only DRIVE TEAMS for the current MATCH are allowed in their respective CASTLES.
Violation: MATCH will not start until the situation is corrected. Those not displaying identification must leave the ARENA.
Children under 12 should never be in the Arena unless they are on a drive team for the current match. I think the rules are fine as they are, but may need to be enforced better.
What was the score on that? Clearly that red robot decided they couldn't pick up the ball in the corner, so by moving it into the field where it was accessible it did have the potential to affect the outcome.
Pretty sure I'd have smacked the field E-Stop if presented with that situation. I hope someone impressed upon that kid the importance of staying a safe distance.
That bot was scoring a LG and missed so at most it was a two point assist by the kid if that boulder gets picked up seems like. YOu are correct they could have stopped the game perhaps they did not feel it necessary or even saw it.
IronicDeadBird
06-03-2016, 17:35
G30 states:
Children under 12 should never be in the Arena unless they are on a drive team for the current match. I think the rules are fine as they are, but may need to be enforced better.
I'll agree to that I'm still disturbed by the lack of response from anyone though.
PerryParadox
06-03-2016, 17:43
As a part of that winning alliance this seems like a huge lack of foresight on the refs part, the kid should definitely not have been allowed that close, the whole event was a bit off due to the fact of it being hosted at a new area on such quick notice.
As a part of that winning alliance this seems like a huge lack of foresight on the refs part, the kid should definitely not have been allowed that close, the whole event was a bit off due to the fact of it being hosted at a new area on such quick notice.
Agree...they could not do the arena due to hockey being played and scheduling. The Del Mar arena was interesting but there were not enough seats and I can see why that kid thing happened. Really not much demarcation going on. the FTC demo was nearby too and that attracts kids.
Hopefully if they do it again there they re-think the layout and add more viewing seats so not as many people are around the teams competing. Overall I have no real complaints on the venue its was fun and kinda of neat being semi outside.
indieFan
06-03-2016, 18:54
It's possible that it was one of the Judge's kids. (Although, knowing the bulk of the Judges from SD and LA, I doubt that's the case.)
Should the kid have been there? Depends on whose kid he was. An older student or adult watching him would have helped to prevent this sort of situation.
This is NOT limited to little kids. I was at a regional doing some job (RI, perhaps?) and didn't realize that I was getting closer and closer to the field to grab balls that were coming out of play. The Regional Director put his hand on my shoulder and pulled me back. (Yes, I'm still embarrassed about this, but big enough to admit it.)
If you've never volunteered field side, I guarantee you that it is extremely difficult to follow anything going on outside of your role.
- Judges - Watch specific robots to see how they perform
- Referees - Watch specific areas of field or robots to track rules violations/scoring
- FTA - Watches field to see if anything needs repair between matches
- Field Supervisor - Tracks time, communicates with other groups to let them know what's happening field side, such as which match is competing, among other tasks
- CSA - ??? (This is new to me.)
- LRI - Watches robots to see if anything is not within the rules at the start of the match, changes were made to robot that wasn't inspected, or damage to robot to know what inspectors need to follow up on
These are just a handful of the positions that are field side. Since ALL of the field side positions are busy, who is supposed to have been responsible for spotting the kid and keeping him from doing what he did?
Knowing the great group that puts on the SD regional, they will address this situation if they end up in the same venue next year provided they get the necessary input. (Boltman and other SD regional participants need to get an email to the Regional Director or someone on the Regional Committee.)
CSA-Control System Advisor
Basically, if somebody's control system is having fits, an orange hat will descend upon their pit (or be summoned to the robot) and help them figure out the problem.
GaryVoshol
06-03-2016, 19:16
It's possible that it was one of the Judge's kids. Or a VIP's kid. The VIP was getting a special tour of the sidelines, and the kids got away.
I was sitting on the opposite side of the field and watched this happen. To me it looked like the kid picked up a ball from outside the field and put it in, but obviously that was not the case. The mom reacted, but as soon as the kid stepped away from the field, she turned her attention back to the game.
After the incidence, the mother and two kids were asked to leave the field area.
ratdude747
06-03-2016, 23:15
What was the score on that? Clearly that red robot decided they couldn't pick up the ball in the corner, so by moving it into the field where it was accessible it did have the potential to affect the outcome.
Pretty sure I'd have smacked the field E-Stop if presented with that situation. I hope someone impressed upon that kid the importance of staying a safe distance.
If I saw that I would as well *foghorn*. Little kids are unpredictable and shouldn't get that close to the perimeter, let alone at all inside it.
BotDesigner
06-03-2016, 23:40
I was sitting on the opposite side of the field and watched this happen. To me it looked like the kid picked up a ball from outside the field and put it in, but obviously that was not the case. The mom reacted, but as soon as the kid stepped away from the field, she turned her attention back to the game.
After the incidence, the mother and two kids were asked to leave the field area.
I thought the same thing when I saw it happen on the live-stream. I didn't think much about it though.
kiettyyyy
07-03-2016, 01:39
Yeah, we noticed this and brought it up to the FTAs and head ref. It didn't affect the outcome of the match.
The venue was pretty small and we did have issues with non-badged (driver team, volunteers) individuals walking field side.
Fortunately, the event ran rather smoothly toward the end of Friday and all-day Saturday!
Which match was this in?
The point difference in the third match was only one ball.
So if it was in that match, it would really affect the outcome.
And would have forced a fourth final match.
Our team didn't catch this in our match videos until later that night so we aren't sure. As part of the drive team for team 2443 I would say this was not match affecting unless if it happened in the third match possibly. I personally cannot identify this match, maybe for being so tuned into playing defense, but it may have been Finals 1.
As a part of that winning alliance this seems like a huge lack of foresight on the refs part, the kid should definitely not have been allowed that close, the whole event was a bit off due to the fact of it being hosted at a new area on such quick notice.
Yeah, we noticed this and brought it up to the FTAs and head ref. It didn't affect the outcome of the match.
The venue was pretty small and we did have issues with non-badged (driver team, volunteers) individuals walking field side.
Fortunately, the event ran rather smoothly toward the end of Friday and all-day Saturday!
We are just glad others and the refs saw this and came to a decision whether it was match affecting or not. We weren't sure if others saw this. We thought there was some lack of enforcement on the officials part (as expected from Week 1), but we respect their judgement and understand the job's difficulty. We thought the event ran smoothly and enjoyed our time at the venue. Thanks a bunch for hosting us.
...
As part of the drive team for team 2443 I would say this was not match affecting unless if it happened in the third match possibly. I personally cannot identify this match, maybe for being so tuned into playing defense, but it may have been Finals 1....
Definitely not F3, I was not in the arena for that match. Pretty sure it was F1
logank013
07-03-2016, 08:47
So this isn't exactly what happened in this clip but at our district event, there were a few instances in which a boulder was shot, hit the tower, and left the field. Sometimes, the boulder was given to a HP to be bowled back in. Other times, a volunteer or whoever got the Boulder would reach their hands in and set the Boulder right next to the wall. What is the correct way to renter these boulders per rules? The reason I bring this up is because we were the main team at the event that launched boulders outside the field via ricochet of the tower. I'm not on the drive team but it appeared that we made sure if the boulders were placed into the field in any way that wasn't through the HP, we didn't want to touch them.
CadetGizmo
07-03-2016, 09:34
Is there a video of F1 (or whichever match it was) on Youtube? Asking only because of school wifi reasons.
EDIT: Cheated the system, saw the video. That's actually pretty scary. What's more, it kinda was in the general vicinity of at least 2 robots, so I'm sorta surprised a ref didn't notice. They have enough to worry about I guess.
rich2202
07-03-2016, 12:40
So this isn't exactly what happened in this clip but at our district event, there were a few instances in which a boulder was shot, hit the tower, and left the field. Sometimes, the boulder was given to a HP to be bowled back in. Other times, a volunteer or whoever got the Boulder would reach their hands in and set the Boulder right next to the wall. What is the correct way to renter these boulders per rules? The reason I bring this up is because we were the main team at the event that launched boulders outside the field via ricochet of the tower. I'm not on the drive team but it appeared that we made sure if the boulders were placed into the field in any way that wasn't through the HP, we didn't want to touch them.
3.2 Match Logistics: BOULDERS that exit the FIELD over a GUARDRAIL during a MATCH are placed back into the FIELD approximately at the point of exit by FIELD STEWARDS (REFEREES, FTAs, or other staff working around the FIELD) at the earliest safe opportunity. BOULDERS that exit the FIELD over a CASTLE WALL during a MATCH are returned to the COURTYARD at the corner of the GUARDRAIL and CASTLE by FIELD STEWARDS at the earliest safe opportunity.
As a mother my first thought was... Where are the children's parents? A short wall is not sufficient protection between a small child and several 120 lb machines programmed and controlled by students.
logank013
07-03-2016, 13:29
As a mother my first thought was... Where are the children's parents? A short wall is not sufficient protection between a small child and several 120 lb machines programmed and controlled by students.
Don't know if anyone else had this issue but in 1 or 2 matches, we weren't even able to control our robot. Now it didn't go smashing into any walls or anything. Just over half of the functions stopped working for no reason. Everything was perfectly fine after a power cycle. My point is if a robot does goes out of control (especially in auto or using certain auto teleop functions), a kid definitely shouldn't be that close to the field.
Ryan_Todd
07-03-2016, 16:56
Don't know if anyone else had this issue but in 1 or 2 matches, we weren't even able to control our robot. [...snip...] My point is if a robot does goes out of control (especially in auto or using certain auto teleop functions), a kid definitely shouldn't be that close to the field.
Hear, hear!
Our robot had some kind of firmware issue at Standish, and got into the habit of randomly driving various motors (PWM and CAN alike) while DISABLED.
(Long story short: We took it off the field for two matches, and about all we were able to determine was that the fault was not inherent in the RIO or wiring. After re-imaging with a different laptop, the problem never recurred.)
Anyways, point is that one should never make assumptions about how these robots will behave in a given context. We always set up safety barriers at demos, and have trained robot wranglers on guard to cut the power if necessary. Safety must always come FIRST in the context of FRC!
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