View Full Version : Backup Coupon Warning
Gutherie88
08-03-2016, 19:40
We, the Robostangs, write this heads up / warning to all teams for the 2016 season. Please note that this post is not intended to challenge the rulings of the referees; the rules of the game were correctly upheld at our event. We simply hope to bring this to everyone’s attention and raise the possibility of reevaluating the definition of an eligible backup robot.
As most of us know, this year's game is more strenuous on robots than ever before. It seemed like every other match had only two robots on an alliance because the third needed to sit out for repairs.
We were the captains of the fourth alliance at the week one FIM Southfield District event. After our first semifinal match, we had already burned through our timeout coupon. After our second quarterfinal match, we were forced to use our backup coupon on behalf of one of our alliance partners due to an extensive drivetrain issue. However, the next highest ranking robot not already on an alliance that was given to us as a backup was not functional. The officials then explained that there cannot be a backup-to-a-backup robot and we would need to accept the new team we had been given. Since we had already submitted the backup coupon, the switch was permanent. We ended up playing the rest of our elimination matches with two robots.
Our message to future alliance captains is to check ahead of time before using a backup coupon. Due to the nature of FIRST Stronghold, many robots may not last until the end of playoff matches. Be sure to carefully weigh your options before utilizing a backup coupon, since a half-functioning, repairable alliance partner may be of greater value than an inoperable backup team. We believe that to make playoffs more fair and give more teams the chance to participate, FIRST should consider reevaluating what qualifies a robot to be available as a backup.
-Team 548
New Lightning
08-03-2016, 19:53
If a team is in the top 8 after selection as available for a back up they should have to be functional and if not they should report this to the head ref and if they are called they should decline.
I believe the backup bot was having a programming issue? It's not that they packed up and left or anything. Plus, I don't think a backup can choose to decline.
I was coaching the opposing alliance when this occurred and thought they got screwed by the rules on this one. I would've been very very okay with the next backup bot coming in.
jnicho15
08-03-2016, 20:49
The backup team, helped by a few volunteers, had issues with LabVIEW. Whenever they enabled, the RoboRIO gave an FPGA update version error-even after reflashing on a brand new RoboRIO. During the last semifinal match, since they had a rather simple drive train, they successfully switched to C++, but it was too late.
Mike Schreiber
08-03-2016, 20:52
Plus, I don't think a backup can choose to decline.
What are they going to do? Force them on the field? This is probably more at the discretion of the head ref though if a team were to say we're broken too, take the next guy.
Lil' Lavery
08-03-2016, 21:08
What are they going to do? Force them on the field? This is probably more at the discretion of the head ref though if a team were to say we're broken too, take the next guy.
Does FMS allow this? Or are back-ups automatically populated by FMS?
In my experience, we've occasionally had back-up bot teams leave, and so when they get called up to compete, they're not there and we move on to the next bot.
So I'm pretty sure FMS can allow "skipping" over a back-up bot for the next one. It's a tough call as a ref to say that you can cherry pick your back-up bot, even if the one you would've gotten is immobile, because that could cost the opposing alliance the match, which also wouldn't be fair.
I don't have a solution to offer to the dilemma either, but I'm sure someone could come up with something that would be better for all
Doug Frisk
08-03-2016, 23:41
Does FMS allow this? Or are back-ups automatically populated by FMS?
You manually enter the backup team number into the FMS. Once the backup is entered it cannot be changed.
New Lightning
08-03-2016, 23:53
So in the case described by the OP, the refs or whoever was in charge just entered the team number before they figured out that the team was unable to compete>
ratdude747
09-03-2016, 00:36
So in the case described by the OP, the refs or whoever was in charge just entered the team number before they figured out that the team was unable to compete>
Well yes, because that's how the rules work. As scorekeeper, the Head Ref tells me (or the FTA, who then tells me) that alliance _ used their backup coupon, and I, with the FTA(s) oversight, enter the backup based on the avialable team list.
Here's (as of 3/9/2016) 5.4.2 from the game manual, which deals with backup robots:
In the Playoff MATCHES, it may be necessary for an ALLIANCE to replace one of its members due to a faulty ROBOT. ROBOT faults include but are not limited to:
1. Damaged mechanicals,
2. Electrical issues,
3. Software problems
In this situation, the ALLIANCE CAPTAIN has the option to invite the highest seeded eligible Team from the pool of available Teams to join its ALLIANCE. The Team who’s ROBOT and DRIVE TEAM replaces another ROBOT and DRIVE TEAM on an ALLIANCE during the Playoff MATCHES is called the BACKUP
TEAM.
The resulting ALLIANCE is then composed of four (4) Teams. The replaced Team remains a member of the ALLIANCE for awards, but cannot return to play, even if their ROBOT is repaired.
Each ALLIANCE is allotted one (1) BACKUP TEAM Coupon during the Playoff MATCHES. If a second ROBOT from the ALLIANCE becomes inoperable, then the ALLIANCE must play the following MATCHES with only two (2) (or even one (1)) ROBOTS.
Example: Three (3) Teams, A, B and C, form an ALLIANCE going
into the Playoff MATCHES. The highest seeded Team not on one
of the eight (8) ALLIANCES is Team D. During one of the Playoff
MATCHES, Team C’s ROBOT suffers damage to its mechanical arm.
The ALLIANCE CAPTAIN decides to bring in Team D to replace Team
C. Team C and their ROBOT are not eligible to play in any subsequent
Playoff MATCHES. The new ALLIANCE of Teams A, B, and D are
successful in advancing to the Finals and win the event. Teams A, B,
C, and D are all recognized as members of the Winning Alliance and
receive awards.
In the case where a BACKUP TEAM is part of the Winning or Finalist ALLIANCE, there will be a four (4)-Team Winning or Finalist ALLIANCE.
Note that there is no opt out provision. Your coupon gets you the highest seeded undrafted team. No if's, and's, or but's. Honestly I think it is an unforeseen issue that should be fixed by an extra provision, however, I'm not on the GDC.
The operative word in Larry's quote is available.[1]
Is a team that packed up and bagged and tagged their robot available? Is a team that cannot be found available? Is the team that is in the middle of replacing their wheels/intake/whatever available? This could be a judgement call on the ref or whoever is trying to find the teams and I know the first two have been used as reasons to skip over teams that were next ranked.
[1] I also notice the word eligible. Is there a way to not be eligible as a back-up? I would not call being a back-up as being picked, so I would not enact the you cannot decline a pick and then later be picked by a difference alliance rule.
I've been at an event where Backup #1 was, at one time, in the venue in the "backup holding pen". Backup #2 was also there.
Last match of the event, a backup is called in. Backup #1 is no longer in the "holding pen", and is not in their pit. Backup #2... well, they were ready to play, and took home a silver medal for their efforts.
I'd say, personally, that if you can't find a team, OR the team specifically says "We are not playing in eliminations", it's safe to assume that they are not available. Not being a head ref, I can't speak to any part of that process.
ratdude747
09-03-2016, 02:45
My understanding had always been that "available" meant "undrafted", which would be any team not called at any point during alliance selection, which excludes declines. Note that the list of teams undrafted is referred to as "available" during alliance selection in the audience screen program (the link between FMS and the AV crew).
I will also quote the last part of Game Manual 5.4.1, which is about alliance selection:
Of the remaining eligible Teams, the highest seeded Teams (up to eight (8)) should remain on standby and be ready to play as a BACKUP TEAM.
That leads me to believe, in the current rules, that it is assumed that "available" is determined exclusively by the alliance selection process, not the volition of the team(s) in question. I don't like it, and I think this needs to be Q&A'd, both as a question and as a concern given the conditions this year.
Likewise, in 548's case, the robot/team in question was undrafted, and likely not bagged, and from gist of the OP, that was enough for the powers the be at the event to call said team as the backup.
Coach Seb
09-03-2016, 07:47
We were the first unranked team at the Waterford event and when we got call in to jump in the District Finals as backup, we had to scramble to get everything ready to go, pack tool box, identify who will be there etc....
Good news is that most of our team was on the practice field taking advantage of this time to tune the bots for our next event.
As rookie team, we really did not totally get how this work, i can guarantee you that next time we will have our stuff ready to go... At the same time, it could have been an oversight not to get the backup team ready, things are getting so crazy!!!! and yes it was an unbelievable experience.:D :D :D
Chris is me
09-03-2016, 08:05
Teams should have to accept being a backup. They have to accept being picked, why is it any different for being a backup? And what team would accept being a backup if they were inoperable?
By the way, it's always a good idea to talk to the backup team when you get a spare moment in the elims and assess what they can do for your alliance.
Owen Busler
09-03-2016, 08:36
Teams should have to accept being a backup. They have to accept being picked, why is it any different for being a backup?
But you dont have to accept being picked. You have the right to deny an alliance and not compete in elims, why should that change for backups?
Zebra_Fact_Man
09-03-2016, 08:37
We were the first unranked team at the Waterford event and when we got call in to jump in the District Finals as backup, we had to scramble to get everything ready to go, pack tool box, identify who will be there etc....
Good news is that most of our team was on the practice field taking advantage of this time to tune the bots for our next event.
As rookie team, we really did not totally get how this work, i can guarantee you that next time we will have our stuff ready to go... At the same time, it could have been an oversight not to get the backup team ready, things are getting so crazy!!!! and yes it was an unbelievable experience.:D :D :D
I was sitting in the stands next to your team when you were called in for service. It was pretty neat.
DrWaSaBi
09-03-2016, 08:48
So my take away from all of this is. Don't be too quick to pack up and leave if you still have an operational robot?
-R3
Chris is me
09-03-2016, 09:20
But you dont have to accept being picked. You have the right to deny an alliance and not compete in elims, why should that change for backups?
That's what I'm saying - to be picked, you have to accept. To be a backup, you should also have to accept (as in have the opportunity to decline).
logank013
09-03-2016, 12:28
How will this work at certain district events that have only 25 teams attending? What if 2 or more alliances need a back up? what if there is a no show? What if the only backup is broken. Will be interesting to see.
Francis-134
09-03-2016, 12:36
How will this work at certain district events that have only 25 teams attending? What if 2 or more alliances need a back up? what if there is a no show? What if the only backup is broken. Will be interesting to see.
I cannot speak to what is supposed to happen this year, but WAY back in 2005, there were 24 robots at the Waterloo Regional. To ensure there were backup teams, the eliminations went through with only 7 alliances (1 seed got a bye into the semis).
Gutherie88
09-03-2016, 12:48
That's what I'm saying - to be picked, you have to accept. To be a backup, you should also have to accept (as in have the opportunity to decline).
One problem that could possibly come about from this is the ability of an alliance captain to pressure the first choice backup robot to deny the offer in order to receive a more well equipped backup.
Giving the head official the authority to decide whether the first backup can be given the choice to accept or decline would be a smart decision.
If the first choice is given the option to say no, and proceeds to decline, the team cannot accept any other offers to be a backup robot. Similar to a team outside the top eight during alliance selection.
logank013
09-03-2016, 12:58
I cannot speak to what is supposed to happen this year, but WAY back in 2005, there were 24 robots at the Waterloo Regional. To ensure there were backup teams, the eliminations went through with only 7 alliances (1 seed got a bye into the semis).
Wow... that is a lot time ago. It would be interesting to see that again.
YoshiCity
09-03-2016, 13:20
What would happen if a team declined a normal alliance selection as, say, #9 rank, and a backup team was requested during elimination play?
orangelight
09-03-2016, 17:20
What would happen if a team declined a normal alliance selection as, say, #9 rank, and a backup team was requested during elimination play?
From the manual
If a Team declines the ALLIANCE Lead position or doesn’t send a student representative for ALLIANCE
selection, they are ineligible to participate in the Playoff Tournament
ratdude747
09-03-2016, 18:53
What would happen if a team declined a normal alliance selection as, say, #9 rank, and a backup team was requested during elimination play?From the manual
If a Team declines the ALLIANCE Lead position or doesn’t send a student representative for ALLIANCE
selection, they are ineligible to participate in the Playoff Tournament
5.4.1 also says:
If the Team declines, that Team is not eligible to be picked again or to be a BACKUP TEAM (see Section 5.4.2 BACKUP TEAMS), and the ALLIANCE CAPTAIN extends another invitation to a different Team. If an invitation from a top eight ALLIANCE to another ALLIANCE Lead is declined, the declining Team may still invite Teams to join their ALLIANCE; however, it cannot accept invitations from other ALLIANCES.
So, if you decline and don't become an alliance captain (even by your own volition), pack your pit, you're not playing. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Citrus Dad
09-03-2016, 19:55
My understanding had always been that "available" meant "undrafted", which would be any team not called at any point during alliance selection, which excludes declines. Note that the list of teams undrafted is referred to as "available" during alliance selection in the audience screen program (the link between FMS and the AV crew).
I will also quote the last part of Game Manual 5.4.1, which is about alliance selection:
That leads me to believe, in the current rules, that it is assumed that "available" is determined exclusively by the alliance selection process, not the volition of the team(s) in question. I don't like it, and I think this needs to be Q&A'd, both as a question and as a concern given the conditions this year.
Likewise, in 548's case, the robot/team in question was undrafted, and likely not bagged, and from gist of the OP, that was enough for the powers the be at the event to call said team as the backup.
This appears to be looking for an implicit definition of "available." However as pointed out, teams not present but "available" under this definition would have to be accepted and that has not been the case. A clear definition of "available" is needed here, and it should include functionally "available."
ratdude747
09-03-2016, 19:58
This appears to be looking for an implicit definition of "available." However as pointed out, teams not present but "available" under this definition would have to be accepted and that has not been the case. A clear definition of "available" is needed here, and it should include functionally "available."
And this why if I had a formal team affiliation I'd be Q&A'ing it.
Mike Schreiber
09-03-2016, 20:47
That's what I'm saying - to be picked, you have to accept. To be a backup, you should also have to accept (as in have the opportunity to decline).
Here's an odd scenario that seems legal and sketchy albeit highly risky if actually planned. Team A seeds first and picks Team B who is far better than the 16th available robot that is not in top 8, Team B declines and therefore no other alliance can pick them. Team A picks Team C as no 1 pick and D as no 16. Before the first match Team A uses backup coupon to swap Team B in for Team D (who isn't actually broken) since B was very well ranked but not in top 8 they are now the back up bot. Obviously a huge gamble with in-picking etc.
There's nothing that stops a team from declining right now and still playing as the back up. Should there be?
Here's an odd scenario that seems legal and sketchy albeit highly risky if actually planned. Team A seeds first and picks Team B who is far better than the 16th available robot that is not in top 8, Team B declines and therefore no other alliance can pick them. Team A picks Team C as no 1 pick and D as no 16. Before the first match Team A uses backup coupon to swap Team B in for Team D (who isn't actually broken) since B was very well ranked but not in top 8 they are now the back up bot. Obviously a huge gamble with in-picking etc.
There's nothing that stops a team from declining right now and still playing as the back up. Should there be?
Well, there's the rule quoted about 3 posts up...
Mike Schreiber
09-03-2016, 21:56
Well, there's the rule quoted about 3 posts up...
Well, one of these days I am going to learn how to read.
FIMAlumni
10-03-2016, 14:18
So the real question is what is the definition of available in the manual?
In this situation, the ALLIANCE CAPTAIN has the option to invite the highest seeded eligible Team from
the pool of available Teams to join its ALLIANCE. The Team who’s ROBOT and DRIVE TEAM replaces
another ROBOT and DRIVE TEAM on an ALLIANCE during the Playoff MATCHES is called the BACKUP
TEAM.
Are all teams that are eligible also available, or only teams with working robots?
Defining eligible as any teams that are not ineligible from:
If a Team declines the ALLIANCE Lead position or doesn’t send a student representative for ALLIANCE
selection, they are ineligible to participate in the Playoff Tournament.
and
If the Team declines, that Team is not eligible to be picked again or to be a BACKUP TEAM
I can't find anything in the manual about a team being allowed to decline an invitation to be brought in as a backup.
Alan Anderson
10-03-2016, 14:56
I can't find anything in the manual about a team being allowed to decline an invitation to be brought in as a backup.
I think the choice of the word "invite" implies that there is an option not to accept. Otherwise, I would have expected the word used to be "draft".
I can give my experience from Arizona North this weekend since I was the person that checked what teams were available.
After an alliance choose to use their back-up coupon they got the highest ranked team not in the playoffs. We heard that the next team had already packed up so I took down the 2nd-6th remaining team numbers, of these five, only number 4 was able to be found. This was in the semifinals.
So my take away from all of this is. Don't be too quick to pack up and leave if you still have an operational robot?
-R3
This is what everyone should take away from this thread. Make sure a volunteer can find your team.
This may have already been mentioned but FMS only has one slot for backups on Elims, so once that backup has been saved that's it. No other robots can be called cause you literally don't have a place to type them in.
Tristan Lall
14-03-2016, 01:28
There's a similar discussion, including a GDC member's account1 of the old inoperability criterion here (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=619422#post619422). (It's not specifically referring to the backup robot, but rather the robot being replaced.)
1 The opinions of GDC members are not official rulings, and thus only serve as background information for the officials ultimately responsible for making calls.
Gutherie88
14-03-2016, 09:12
This may have already been mentioned but FMS only has one slot for backups on Elims, so once that backup has been saved that's it. No other robots can be called cause you literally don't have a place to type them in.
This was one thing mentioned to us by the head referee. The system should change and allow you to swap another team number in, just in case an unfortunate event like this does happen.
Say a team leaves, but a mistake is made, and the team who had left is put into the system as the backup bot? What would happen?
This was one thing mentioned to us by the head referee. The system should change and allow you to swap another team number in, just in case an unfortunate event like this does happen.
Say a team leaves, but a mistake is made, and the team who had left is put into the system as the backup bot? What would happen?
I think the field would see if headquarters could take control and override it but without going into the background runnings of FMS that team is technically your back up team.
The moral of the story here is that you need the field to confirm that the backup robot you wanna call in is working before they input it into FMS.
Say a team leaves, but a mistake is made, and the team who had left is put into the system as the backup bot? What would happen?
You have a lot of smart, creative people there; they would find some hack to make it work. If the field management system can't be fixed, perhaps they could reprogram the robot to use the other team's number, and then worry about fixing up the records later?
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