Are 8 play regional reasonable? [Archive]

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TCMJ1816

09-03-2016, 15:01

JohnSchneider

09-03-2016, 15:06

You could hold local scrimmages and practice all the way through the season.

But that would also require an entire second robot because "lol 6 weeks build".

maxnz

09-03-2016, 15:07

TCMJ1816

09-03-2016, 15:10

You could hold local scrimmages and practice all the way through the season.

But that would also require an entire second robot because "lol 6 weeks build".

This is becoming much more common, I know of at least 10 practice bots and 5+ practice fields all around the state. I can't imagine more than about 25 teams make second robots.

FRCTeam3293

09-03-2016, 15:13

-This make the $5000 it costs to register for events pretty crazy, $625 a match isn't appealing for many of the low budget teams around FIRST.

Amen Brother.

Andrew Schreiber

09-03-2016, 15:22

New Lightning

09-03-2016, 15:23

Are most regionals only at 8 qualification matches. From what I understand most are at somewhere between 10-11.

TCMJ1816

09-03-2016, 15:36

Are most regionals only at 8 qualification matches. From what I understand most are at somewhere between 10-11.

I am under the understanding that all 4 MN events will only be 8 matches per team. Looking at other regionals I think you are correct, the 2 I checked had 9 matches per team.

Ginger Power

09-03-2016, 15:56

Bryan Herbst

09-03-2016, 16:08

I am under the understanding that all 4 MN events will only be 8 matches per team. Looking at other regionals I think you are correct, the 2 I checked had 9 matches per team.
It's all dependent on the number of teams registered.

Northern Lights at 60 teams could have snuck in 9 per team, but Lake Superior at 63 teams could not. We have the same problem in Minneapolis, so I would expect both events to stick to 8 again.

I also take issue with dividing the $5,000 up by the number of matches and valuing the competition on a per-match basis.

First, the $5,000 is your ticket into both your first event and the season as a whole. How much is the rest of the FRC season worth to you? Is build season worth $0? The KOP? Of course this "value" will be the same between both, but just saying that a regional costs $625/match doesn't take that into account.

A regional also comes with a lot of other differences- bigger venue, more teams, more money spent on the A/V setup, etc. How much are those things worth to you and your team?

Now if you really do just want to compare on a cost-per-match basis, I won't argue that districts are a better "deal." And yes, district teams do come into championships with more plays as well. I just don't personally believe it is quite that simple.

Jon Stratis

09-03-2016, 16:10

pHolmgren

09-03-2016, 16:13

This is why the district system is great. It world fantastic here in PNW.

Andrew Schreiber

09-03-2016, 16:29

The number of qualification matches is highly dependent on the number of teams at an event (fewer teams means more matches per team) and the cycle time between matches. With the defenses this year, cycle time is up compared to some other years. Last year MN events had 9 matches per team, and in 2014 (with practically no items for field reset to have to place) we got 10.

I know, I want more plays for my team... But I also know that there are challenges associated with switching to districts. Everyone involved is determined to provide the best experience for teams each year, and from what I've heard and seen, MN has some of the best events around :). After all, who else could get an Air Force Flight Simulator ride running for everyone to enjoy at their event like we had in Duluth?

And I want to give a big shout out to the crew from Bison Robotics at NDSU... 29 (i think) of them made the trek all the way across the state to volunteer in Duluth, and a similar number are signed up for the Minneapolis events in week 6 as well. Wow!

So, how much of my registration fee is a flight simulator ride worth? If we didn't have it, could we have more matches?

I'm being snarky of course. But my point is, at it's core this is a ROBOTICS COMPETITION. It's cool to have other things but at the end of the day $625 a match is a tough pill to swallow.

And, look, I get you and I value different things in events but I would like to think that we could agree on the fact that 8 matches is unacceptable and I'd rather go to an event that gives me more matches than the self proclaimed "best events in FRC".

Take from that last statement what you will.

TCMJ1816

09-03-2016, 17:28

First, the $5,000 is your ticket into both your first event and the season as a whole. How much is the rest of the FRC season worth to you? Is build season worth $0? The KOP? Of course this "value" will be the same between both, but just saying that a regional costs $625/match doesn't take that into account.

You are totally right, I was more so looking at it as the cost per match as a second event. This obviously doesn't apply to most teams. That first $5000 is very worth it for all that it gets you, but the second $5000 is much harder to validate.

maxnz

09-03-2016, 17:32

You are totally right, I was more so looking at it as the cost per match as a second event. This obviously doesn't apply to most teams. That first $5000 is very worth it for all that it gets you, but the second $5000 is much harder to validate.

Subsequent regionals cost $4000, but that's still a lot.

Mr V

09-03-2016, 17:32

I think that 8 qualification matches is too few, no question about it.

Fact is that MN should have joined the district system years ago. Every year that passes it gets far harder to implement.

I've heard the cries that you don't have enough volunteers but that will never get better unless the move is made to the district system sooner rather than later.

At this point it is still possible to make it work with 2 events per weekend. Once you cross that 240 team count then it will require 3 matches on at least one weekend and then it does almost become impossible to implement the district system.

Yes MI has more than 2 events per weekend, however they did not start out that way, they had time to build up the resources, whether we are talking about volunteers, funding or equipment.

At this rate I fear that the teams in MN will be the last to benefit from all of the advantages of the District System, and I fear it is going to take a mandate from FIRST which I don't think that will turn out all that well.

nighterfighter

09-03-2016, 17:40

8 matches per event really, really REALLY sucks.

At the peachtree regional in 2015, there were 66 teams, and 8 matches per team.

I did some quick calculations that year and assuming you spent $5000 on registration, and "only" $4000 on the rest of the season (Including shipping, robot parts, tools, etc) you were spending about $500 a minute for field time.

To put that in perspective: For $9000 you get less than an hour on the field. Actually, you get less than half an hour on the field.

I don't know of many things in life that cost $18000/hr, but apparently FRC is one of them.

Of course, those numbers don't count the mentors time-donations. If you value your mentors at a low number, even $15/hr...you don't want to know the price then...

I'm glad Georgia switched to districts.

Edit: Obviously this was a bit facetious. You can't say that the only thing about FRC is competing on the field. But it does show how little playtime you get, and at what cost.

Doug Frisk

09-03-2016, 18:07

At this rate I fear that the teams in MN will be the last to benefit from all of the advantages of the District System, and I fear it is going to take a mandate from FIRST which I don't think that will turn out all that well.

Apart from a pile of disjointed small events in high school gyms and marginally more matches per team, what are "All the advantages" of moving to a district system?

waialua359

09-03-2016, 18:10

About the only disappointing thing about the DECCer FRC event this past weekend was only 8 matches.
We were just joking about the $$/qualification match and how it was just way too expensive.

Champs in Atlanta used to be pretty bad also with 7 matches only in Quals.

nighterfighter

09-03-2016, 18:10

AGPapa

09-03-2016, 18:26

Apart from a pile of disjointed small events in high school gyms and marginally more matches per team, what are "All the advantages" of moving to a district system?

Marginally more matches?

Even if you only get 8 matches per district event, you still get two district events. That's twice as many, and in reality you probably get closer to 9 or 10 matches per event.

Plus there are also district champs, which is another set of matches. Meaning if a team wins district champs and goes to the actual champs, they have 3 times the amount of field time/driver practice under their belt as a team who only went to a regional.

Every district event has 12 qualification matches. That's 24 matches over two district events, or three times as many matches for the same registration cost of one regional.

Additional advantages for the district system come from treating FRC as a sport with a competition season, rather than treating it like an annual science fair.

cadandcookies

09-03-2016, 18:29

Apart from a pile of disjointed small events in high school gyms and marginally more matches per team, what are "All the advantages" of moving to a district system?

Marginally more matches? You mean 2-3x as many?

The opportunity to compete with different teams from around the district area? The opportunity for more of our teams to qualify for Championships and have that life-altering experience? The missing less school and work because we can run events Friday-Saturday or even Saturday-Sunday? The less stress per match because we have a guaranteed second event to iterate for? The playing in a large arena being actually meaningful instead of just expected? The opportunity to train more volunteers faster?

If you want me to go on I can. I'm sorry but implying districts wouldn't be a net positive is ridiculous and just about all available evidence points to the contrary.

Andrew Schreiber

09-03-2016, 18:32

Apart from a pile of disjointed small events in high school gyms and marginally more matches per team, what are "All the advantages" of moving to a district system?

We get it, you don't like districts you'd rather have cheering and dancing because you have this ill conceived notion you run the best events in FRC and somehow having teams get more actual time hands on with their robots would ruin that.

So, here's what you'd get, you'd get more stick time, lower costs for the majority of teams[1], more competitive robots [2], more chances for more people to see events, more of a season to help build interest... The fact that it's a better experience for teams is reason enough. The fact that it helps drive STEM in your state should be even more reason. Oh, and the big win? You get to still have your huge event but this time without the doldrums of the first couple matches wherein teams don't move reliably. Instead by this point EVERY robot can compete and do something. And that, that makes for a much better event.

And no, I haven't been to an FRC event in MN yet. Maybe one of these years I'll invest in enough cold weather gear that I won't freeze to death and come up that way. [3]

[1] SOME teams may travel more due to multiple events, they still reap the benefits of more time. I don't recall the geographic distribution of MN teams so I can't tell you if laying out events would be easier.

[2] Zondag research showed a correlation between more matches played at robot effectiveness. And I think we all anecdotally know this.

[3] Not that NH is much better... god I miss Florida.

Mr V

09-03-2016, 18:45

Apart from a pile of disjointed small events in high school gyms and marginally more matches per team, what are "All the advantages" of moving to a district system?

I'm not sure where you get the "disjointed small events" thing from. In the PNW district we are quite proud of the conisistency of our events and our production values. This is something that many other areas have noticed and those who are starting new districts contact us and many specifically request info on our production equipment and methods.

The list of benefits is long and if you search for posts by me or many others who have made the transition you can get a more comprehensive list as I don't have the time right now to give a comprehensive list.

ALL teams have the chance at what I call the true engineering experience of improving their performance after "real world" testing. Currently only teams that can come up with another $4000 and figure out travel expenses in most cases get that opportunity. This to me is the biggest benefit and the District System would be worth it on that alone.

24 guaranteed matches instead of 8 or 9 that many regionals offer is a huge benefit.

Higher likelihood of participating in finals and higher likelihood of winning a judged award.

Better chance of those great but not top teams earning a spot at CMP. Now this is only our 3rd year, but in the second year the non powerhouse teams that attended were generally a different group than had attended the first season we went to the District System.

Student satisfaction in the District System is greatly improved. Our first season I spent a lot of time in the pits talking to students across all levels of teams. NOT A SINGLE student wanted to go back to the Regional System. I did have mentors who were displeased because it meant more time off from work if they were going to support the team at every event for every day. That however has changed as we now have a number of Sat-Sun events which means no missing school for students and for those mentors that have the traditional 9-5/M-F job less time off of work.

I could go on for another page or two but we've still got 4 more hours of our unbag time and I've got to meet the team at the practice field hosted by 2557 SOTAbots so our programmers can work on scoring a boulder in auto instead of just getting a crossing, and to get a little more time behind the glass for our drive team.

LFrisk

09-03-2016, 19:17

We get it, you don't like districts you'd rather have cheering and dancing because you have this ill conceived notion you run the best events in FRC and somehow having teams get more actual time hands on with their robots would ruin that.

I won't get into other things with this post, but this annoyed me especially. As far as I know, his worry rests more with the fact that he would probably have to do 6 straight weekends of competition in a row, not to mention Worlds. Minnesota already has 4 large regionals, 5 if you were to count Iowa, and Minnesota would probably need 12 districts to accommodate all the teams here. To my knowledge, there are two scorekeepers and two or three FTAs in Minnesota FIRST. I don't know for sure, but I believe that there are only two or three Head Refs in Minnesota. (Don't quote me on that last one.) I know that Daredad has already done Northern Lights and will be scorekeeping at one of the Twin cities regionals, in addition to Iowa. I assume the FTAs and other Scorekeepers are equally busy. Would you want them to have that much more work for 10 more minutes of match time per event?

Andrew Schreiber

09-03-2016, 19:33

I won't get into other things with this post, but this annoyed me especially. As far as I know, his worry rests more with the fact that he would probably have to do 6 straight weekends of competition in a row, not to mention Worlds. Minnesota already has 4 large regionals, 5 if you were to count Iowa, and Minnesota would probably need 12 districts to accommodate all the teams here. To my knowledge, there are two scorekeepers and two or three FTAs in Minnesota FIRST. I don't know for sure, but I believe that there are only two or three Head Refs in Minnesota. (Don't quote me on that last one.) I know that Daredad has already done Northern Lights and will be scorekeeping at one of the Twin cities regionals, in addition to Iowa. I assume the FTAs and other Scorekeepers are equally busy. Would you want them to have that much more work for 10 more minutes of match time per event?

How many JA's did NE have when it went to Districts? AT an event it's just as much work as a scorekeeper or a FTA. [1] If it meant that 40 teams would have a better experience I'd do that job every weekend for the entire season.[2]

So I'm not asking them to do anything I am not currently doing. My schedule this year: UMD - Judge and Planning Committee, Rhode Island - Competing, Boston - Judge Advisor, Pine Tree - Competing (or if they are still short on judges... filling in), DCMP - Competing (or if they are still short on judges... filling in), and CMP - Judging. And I nearly ended up flying to Arkansas this week to fill in when their JA backed out.

So, feel free to be annoyed, but I put my money where my mouth is.

[1] I've done scorekeeping, haven't done FTA, Im not trivializing the roles.

[2] Last year I judged weeks 3,7, and CMP and JA'd week 5 because I think the judging process is important.

bkahl

09-03-2016, 19:42

Minnesota already has 4 large regionals, 5 if you were to count Iowa

Last I checked Iowa was its own state.

That is, unless it was swallowed up since I last visited my family there...

Basel A

09-03-2016, 19:43

Don't districts mean one fewer committed day per event for the key volunteers as well? Never having been a key volunteer (let alone in both regionals and districts in order to compare), I really don't know.

ratdude747

09-03-2016, 19:45

I have a feeling that Minnesota or the upper Midwest (MN, WI, IA, ND and/or SD) will become the next district within the next few years. We already have four regionals, two in Duluth and two in the twin cities, plus a regional in Iowa.

I think that 8 qualification matches is too few, no question about it.

Fact is that MN should have joined the district system years ago. Every year that passes it gets far harder to implement.

I've heard the cries that you don't have enough volunteers but that will never get better unless the move is made to the district system sooner rather than later.

At this point it is still possible to make it work with 2 events per weekend. Once you cross that 240 team count then it will require 3 matches on at least one weekend and then it does almost become impossible to implement the district system.

Yes MI has more than 2 events per weekend, however they did not start out that way, they had time to build up the resources, whether we are talking about volunteers, funding or equipment.

At this rate I fear that the teams in MN will be the last to benefit from all of the advantages of the District System, and I fear it is going to take a mandate from FIRST which I don't think that will turn out all that well.

Based on what I heard during my stint on Hopper field last year, the main issue with MN going to districts is the lack of a 503c organization to oversee it. Districts require such an organization; we in Indiana found out last year that part of the reduced costs are the result off Manchester doing less and offloading more of the responsibilities on the district. It's both good and bad, I'll get to that in a bit:

Apart from a pile of disjointed small events in high school gyms and marginally more matches per team, what are "All the advantages" of moving to a district system?

It's a better experince for everybody, in general. Teams get more matches per season, as they get two district events for the price of one regional. The event costs are lower as it's done in such Gyms and often w/o a pro AV crew. It's a more efficient system.

Smaller events for some (dare I say most) teams is a plus. It's a lot more personal, as with a smaller field of competing teams you get to know other teams better. The smaller venues tend to get louder too, which really adds to the feel of the event during match play. It's a different feel that IMHO is superior to the feel of a regional.

Then there is the community aspect of it. Districts only work if the volunteer base is very strong. This is why Indiana survived last year, because of a volunteer family that works thier butts off for the sake of FIRST and the teams. No need for a pro AV crew, we have volunteers who have worked AV for offseason events for years. In fact, district events are more akin to two-day offseason events, only with offical awards. In that regard IRI was the first district event ever, in a way.

Finally, in a bizarre way, districts are better for volunteers. Yes, we have to work harder, but it's also a good thing. It builds the local FIRST family, as you get to see and work with each other more. You also get more events to build your volunteer skills. Last year was my first year scorekeeping. By the start of championship I had FOUR official events under my belt. Due to that, I was allowed to scorekeep at championship despite being a rookie. If you want to try different positions, while offseason events are good as well, districts allow one to have variety in their volunteer work if they want. As a volunteer, I've preferred districts for these reasons.

If you don't believe me, I suggest attending (or even volunteering) at a district event some time, if you can. You might just change your mind.

ehochstein

09-03-2016, 19:55

Based on what I heard during my stint on Hopper field last year, the main issue with MN going to districts is the lack of a 503c organization to oversee it. Districts require such an organization; we in Indiana found out last year that part of the reduced costs are the result off Manchester doing less and offloading more of the responsibilities on the district.

There's been hope that High Tech Kids, who runs FIRST LEGO League Junior, FIRST LEGO League and FIRST Tech Challenge for Minnesota will also take on the FIRST Robotics Competition. I'm sure both MN FIRST and High Tech Kids are working diligently to figure out something that will work in the future.

The other Gabe

09-03-2016, 20:00

Student satisfaction in the District System is greatly improved. Our first season I spent a lot of time in the pits talking to students across all levels of teams. NOT A SINGLE student wanted to go back to the Regional System.

this. I did 2 years under the regionals and two years under district format, and it is so fantastic to be able to go to at least 2, usually 3 or 4 events (my team is good most years :v ), for a much lower cost than 3 events would cost if you were doing regional events. not to mention that the smaller district events are far more manageable when you account for schoolwork and missing class - Regionals take up far more time.

the district system is also far fairer IMO. in 2013, there's at least 3 teams I could list off the top of my head that absolutely deserved to go to world champs that couldn't since they didnt win anything at regionals. Due to the district points system, the team that gets second place at every event they go to earns their way to champs through that consistent quality.

Deetman

09-03-2016, 20:03

Something important to remember about the volunteer issue, specifically key volunteers... If you build it they will come.

At least here in MAR, going to districts itself grew the key volunteer base. We still have a lot of work to do to lessen the burden on some, but we're making progress. It forces you to open up key volunteer positions that others have had locked down for years at the regional events. Local events over fewer days (some not even requiring vacation day usage!) helps prompt people that never would have volunteered before. For that matter, there is no obligation to volunteer every week and you shouldn't feel forced to volunteer! Sure there are crazy people like me that would be at every event if they could be in two places at once, but there are also people that volunteer at one or two of the events.

LFrisk

09-03-2016, 20:16

Last I checked Iowa was its own state.

That is, unless it was swallowed up since I last visited my family there...

Iowa is being run by Iowa FIRST, but many of the volunteers there are from MN FIRST. (That's why I said IF you count it.)

Sorry for any confusion.

DonRotolo

09-03-2016, 21:46

Apart from a pile of disjointed small events in high school gyms and marginally more matches per team, what are "All the advantages" of moving to a district system?
I take this as a serious question; after all, if those of us in Districts cannot elaborate to others what the advantages are, one may fairly question if there really are any.

Advantages are subjective: What I see as an advantage, others might not. But here is what I see:

1. Not having to take vacation from work. Fri/Sat/Sun events mean I can just leave an hour early on a Friday and still attend every minute of the event. Big for me as a mentor, and many parents appreciate the zero out-of-school time and thus are more supportive.

2. Less travel. Smaller events tend to be nearer. MI UP folks may disagree though.

3. The feel and production values are easily at Regional level, but of course the organizers must deliberately make it so.

4. You really get to know your 'neighbors' after a few years: smaller venues and limited teams really makes things cozy in a good way.

Other posts have elaborated on other advantages, and I agree with those as well.

Brian Maher

10-03-2016, 00:19

I'd like to note that the smaller events and District Championship provide more opportunities for success. Instead of ~50% of teams at a ~48 team regional playing in elims, around two thirds of teams play in elims at a ~36 team district event. This creates more opportunities for success in elims, and more chances to win judged awards.

Winning our first (district) event in 2014 revitalized my team's morale. As the second pick of the second alliance, if the event were much larger, we very well may not have had this chance. That year was our first time at District Championship, and our experience iterating on our design, playing with MAR's best, and nearly qualifying for CMP motivated us to grow and push ourselves toward new success, both on and off the field.

The opportunities the District system presented have cause my team to advance leaps and bounds in the past few years. Last weekend, my team won its second competition and its first as an alliance captain. Districts help teams improve on so many levels, between the increased plays/$ and the more easily attained chances for success.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying it's all about the competition. Our success caused us to re-assess our priorities, and we went from being a team with very little outreach to a team regularly demonstrating our robot and getting people excited about STEM. Competitive success isn't everything but it sure makes a difference.

Tom Line

10-03-2016, 02:22

I'd love to go to districts which would solve this problem. The issue is with key volunteers. Minnesota would have to do 12 events which is a lot of field setup/teardowns, and a lot more work for our key volunteers. I know our Volunteer Coordinator is crazy busy as is with 4 (5 if you count Iowa) events. We do have a great crop of college level volunteers on the way. When some of us start transferring into key volunteer positions, we'll be ready for the move to districts. Which will solve the problems.

A band-aid solution will be adding another regional which could happen within a year or two. This will allow more teams to do 2 events. The cost will still be crazy, but at least the opportunity will be there.

All we can do to help is recruit more volunteers, and get them trained into key volunteer positions!

Welcome to the normal world before districts. Most teams worked their whole build season for a single Regional and 8 matches. Approximately 16 minutes of play time.

As for volunteers - it's time to force that back on the teams. The teams are the ones with the people resources, and that where you have to look to if you want to solve the problem. Announce districts well in advance of the season and explain each team is going to have to provide XX unskilled and 1 skilled individual (who will have to attend training, etc) for each event. After one rocky year, you'll end up with at least a couple dozen skilled individuals you can drag even deeper to make into skilled FTA's and the like.

Mr V

10-03-2016, 02:29

Some more great points about the many advantages of the District System.

A couple points I'd like to highlight:

Build it and they will come. Before the PNW District formed we had 1 or 2 of each key volunteer position. Yes the first year was rough on some of our key volunteers. It was made easier because we made the decision to make the move and started by recruiting and training more people for those positions before making the switch. Now 3 years in we have 5 of most key volunteers so that no one person has to cover more than 2 of the events since we only have 9 events + DCMP and in fact we now do not generally allow volunteers to work in the same key volunteer position at more than 2. Many do choose to take on multiple roles and attend more events. One of the keys of this is letting people know that there is a need for people to fill those positions and that they are welcome. We have found that many of the mentors and students have the knowledge and desire to be volunteers. It is a great way to keep people "in the family". We have those mentors who are ready to move on from that role when their kids graduate, that still want to be involved in a lower impact way. We also have a number of former students who volunteer at an event, Sat-Sun events make it easier for both of those groups.

A 501c3 organization is needed, but creating one is not some impossible feat and it is not blazing a new trail. There are now 8 districts that have been down a similar path who will gladly share how they did it. It is important to note that we all took different paths and some of the newer events have taken elements from multiple existing districts to create what works for them.

I've also had time to consider my time in the Regional System and the things that are better about it. I was only able to come up with two.

#1 In some of the venues that we had used in the PNW the seats are more comfortable than in the venues we use now. It certainly is not true across the board however because a couple of our district events have taken place in the same University gyms as the Regionals that preceded them.

#2 In Regionals there is a greater likelihood of seeing teams from out of your area. In the past we have had international teams from Mexico and Turkey. We have also had teams from MT, ID, CA and HI in the past. However with the interdistrict play we have seen teams from MI and hopefully we'll see more in the future.

Finally as mentioned above not every Regional is in a major league sports arena, some are in University Gyms, Convention centers and even HS Gyms while district events are held in HS and University Gyms and the DCMPs are sometimes held in sports arenas.

maxnz

11-03-2016, 09:03

bjtheone

11-03-2016, 12:02

Welcome to the normal world before districts. Most teams worked their whole build season for a single Regional and 8 matches. Approximately 16 minutes of play time.

This is the biggest win for the district model. Up in the Frozen North (aka Canada) there are unfortunately not enough teams _yet_ to support the district model so we have regionals.

Given that, we have pretty much concluded that we need to (a) build two robots, and (b) attend 2 regionals in order to be able to test/iterate/improve the robot design and drive team. Which adds significantly to the costs of running a team. Attending one event, after all the work that is build season, seems like very little reward for all the work, but the second regional certainly adds a lot of cost.

Would love to be in a district model with weekend events, and robot access period instead of the craziness that the "practice" day at a regional can turn into.

AGPapa

11-03-2016, 12:12

We could call it the Minnesota District (MN) or we could include IA, ND, SD and WI and call it the Upper Midwest District (UMW).

If Minnesota goes into it's own district region by itself it will already have the most teams for a first-year district. Every other region went to districts with way less teams than Minnesota already has. Including other states and bumping that number up higher would make it even harder to organize that first year.

More teams means more events, which means more fields and more volunteers. Minnesota needs to switch before they get to 240 teams, that'll let them get by with only two fields. Waiting too long or adding other states makes the switch turn from hard to nearly impossible.

This is the biggest win for the district model. Up in the Frozen North (aka Canada) there are unfortunately not enough teams _yet_ to support the district model so we have regionals.

Ontario absolutely has enough teams for districts right now. There are 137 teams in Ontario this year, more than MAR, CHS, IN, GA and NC.

maxnz

11-03-2016, 12:28

If Minnesota goes into it's own district region by itself it will already have the most teams for a first-year district. Every other region went to districts with way less teams than Minnesota already has. Including other states and bumping that number up higher would make it even harder to organize that first year.
Would we be able to start with only Minnesota and then expand to include neighboring states after a couple years?

Also, how many active teams does MN have currently?

AGPapa

11-03-2016, 12:50

Would we be able to start with only Minnesota and then expand to include neighboring states after a couple years?

Also, how many active teams does MN have currently?

Minnesota has 208 teams this year.

I suppose they could expand later; PNW did add Alaska this year (although that was only one team).

Mr V

11-03-2016, 12:51

So, if MN decides to make the switch,

What needs to be done before we can make the switch?
How long would it be until we can make the switch?
Would we be ready by the 2018 or 2019 seasons? Or even 2017?

From what I've read on this thread, the pros far outweigh the cons, so why can't we work towards this?

As for location, there are a lot of places that host offseason events, so that might be a good place to start.

We could call it the Minnesota District (MN) or we could include IA, ND, SD and WI and call it the Upper Midwest District (UMW).

The most important part is having the leadership in MN want to make the move to the District System. Once you have that then you can make it happen.

The leaders of what has become the PNW District were approached by FIRST in the 2012 season with the request that we move to the District System for the 2013 season. Since it was still a relatively new concept with 2 different models, FiM and MAR we decided to wait until the 2014 season and use the 2013 season to figure out how we wanted to implement it and prepare.

The most important thing in my opinion would be to train more key volunteers during the preceding season. That means having people shadow the current key volunteers and learn the ropes "on the job". So probably a little too late for the 2017 season but if the process was started now they could have everything in place for a relatively smooth transition for the 2018 season, IF, and it is a big IF, growth is held to a minimum so that the total number of teams for the first season is less than 240. Once you cross that threshold it becomes a much bigger problem as you can not do it in 12 events as FIRST has mandated that the max event size is 40 teams to ensure the ability to have the mandated 12 qualification matches of the District System.

It is easier now because you have many footsteps to follow that trace a few different paths.

For example in the PNW district the choice was made to own all the necessary equipment to produce an event with the exception of generators, and some tables or additional pipe and drape when needed for a particular event and not available from the venue. That did require a larger initial capital investment but the math said that all of that equipment would be amortized in 1-3 years vs the rental fees.

The people behind FIRST in IN actually contracted with the PNW district to bring our AV people and equipment for IRI the season before they made the switch to train their people. We also provided a list of all of our equipment which I believe they mainly duplicated at least on the AV side.

There are some differences in how the Districts are produced. From my understanding FiM uses trailers pulled by pickups to put the fields in for transport with a minimal amount of road cases. In the PNW we decided to follow FIRST's lead and put everything in road cases and use a semi trailer that we rent and hire a truck and driver to transport. We have a warehouse for offseason storage that also doubles as the office, meeting and training space, area for a practice field, and even Geek's Gala our own version of Robo Prom. MAR and CPK use Pods both for transport and off-season storage.

So there are a number of variations in the implementation models used in the District System that can be mixed and matched to create something that would work best for MN. For example I know that a number of the new areas have followed MAR's use of Pods for storage and transport but our AV set up.

If you really want to join the District System and reap the many benefits to teams you need to let MN's leadership know that you want it AND you are willing to be part of the solution by training to be a key or regular volunteer next season.

As usual the statements are my own opinion. They are based on participating back in the dark days of the Regional System and in our 3rd year of the District System. They are based on talking to many teams about their feelings on the change, students, mentors and volunteers.

The_ShamWOW88

11-03-2016, 13:50

About the only thing I can think of I liked better before we went Districts, is the size of venue, for the most part, shrunk and sight-lines to the playing field aren't as great as they typically are in a traditional hockey/basketball venue.

Otherwise, paying 5000 for two events (24+ matches), the ability to pay 1000 to add 3rd+ events and then the chance at ranking well enough to compete at the district champs and Worlds without necessarily winning an event outright, I think I'll say I like districts.

maxnz

11-03-2016, 14:13

Bryan Herbst

11-03-2016, 14:33

Minnesota added 19 teams this year. If we grow by the same number next year we're at 227, and the year after that 246.

Becoming a district is something we will want to do very soon if we want to be under the magic number of 240 when we switch.

I wouldn't count on that kind of continued growth.

The last big jump was 2012 (153) to 2013 (180).
2013 to 2014 was only 6 teams.
2014 to 2015 brought in another 6 (to 192).
2015 to 2016 was actually 16 (we are currently at 208).

We have also hit the point at which we have a team at most schools that can support an FRC team (and some that really can't). Many of the schools looking at FRC would be much better off with an FTC team. These are schools with around 100 students total in rural areas without many local companies to leverage for money and mentors.

maxnz

11-03-2016, 14:42

I wouldn't count on that kind of continued growth.

The last big jump was 2012 (153) to 2013 (180).
2013 to 2014 was only 6 teams.
2014 to 2015 brought in another 6 (to 192).
2015 to 2016 was actually 16 (we are currently at 208).

We have also hit the point at which we have a team at most schools that can support an FRC team (and some that really can't). Many of the schools looking at FRC would be much better off with an FTC team. These are schools with around 100 students total in rural areas without many local companies to leverage for money and mentors.
I was basing the 19 off of the number of rookie teams, not taking into account any teams that stopped competing at the end of last year.

Still, MN FIRST is growing fast.

Ginger Power

11-03-2016, 14:55

I wouldn't count on that kind of continued growth.

The last big jump was 2012 (153) to 2013 (180).
2013 to 2014 was only 6 teams.
2014 to 2015 brought in another 6 (to 192).
2015 to 2016 was actually 16 (we are currently at 208).

We have also hit the point at which we have a team at most schools that can support an FRC team (and some that really can't). Many of the schools looking at FRC would be much better off with an FTC team. These are schools with around 100 students total in rural areas without many local companies to leverage for money and mentors.

I think there is a lot more growth potential. The Twin Cities and Duluth areas are overpopulated/at full capacity, but there is a massive untapped source of teams in the Central MN area, extending to the North and West to Fargo, ND. I think hitting that 240 mark is more than reasonable within 3-4 years.

cadandcookies

11-03-2016, 15:22

The most important part is having the leadership in MN want to make the move to the District System. Once you have that then you can make it happen.

I fear that this is what the actual hold-up is.

What follows is going to be part open letter, part response to this thread in general.

I can understand logistical concerns about districts here. I can understand concerns about not having enough volunteers. Heck, I can even understand the apprehension that those who are currently running our events (and, yes, are doing a fantastic job with the rather terrible position we're in of so many teams and so little time) may have of losing the control they currently have of our system. I can understand concerns about lower event quality and I can understand concerns that we might not be able to meet our own lofty standards for events.

What I really cannot understand is how districts has become a taboo topic of discussion in Minnesota, and why there doesn't seem to be any plan whatsoever, or even a vague notion that Minnesota can go to districts in the foreseeable future. I don't understand how we came to this deadlock where it's a rookie student that asks the question "So what exactly do we need to go to districts?"

Honestly, at this point I'm not sure what the deal is. It seems like everyone is acting according to what they believe to be the program's best interests at heart, but somewhere along the line the community here lost an entire set of people who could have been welcomed into helping FRC in Minnesota move forward, but have instead been pushed away from volunteering (or in some cases even being a part of the program). I know people who have been called up and told not to post here about districts in MN, or to be told that they would not be assigned to a volunteer role because of posts on social media or CD. I know that there are incredibly talented and passionate people who have just flat out given up on volunteering here in Minnesota because they no longer want to deal with the "Minnesota drama."

Maybe this post feels like I'm trying to place the blame at the feet of the nebulous and ambiguous "them"-- those who are in charge of MN FIRST. That isn't the case. I have nothing but respect for "them" and what they have done for the program here. I just find it sad and unfortunate that there are so many people who want to help make MN FIRST better, but have been pushed away or become disillusioned with the current state of affairs, and that it doesn't appear likely to change any time soon.

I'm still looking for meaningful ways to move us towards districts, but I honestly don't know what I can do other than continue volunteering and running the workshops I do with GOFIRST. That's something that I think is a major part of the problem-- there isn't a lack of desire for districts here, there's a lack of direction for what we can do to move towards it. Vague calls for "more volunteers" aren't a meaningful answer to this question-- it's very clear that there's more that needs to happen, and at least from where I'm standing it looks like there's more that we can start doing now.

We want to help.

Let us.

maxnz

11-03-2016, 15:30

We want to help.

Let us.

I totally agree. If the leadership needs help, then just ask and the community will deliver. That's one thing I've learned so far in my 5 months of being with FIRST.

Nemo

11-03-2016, 17:30

I agree that requiring teams to bring a couple of volunteers each, like they did in Michigan, is a good place to start.

I can only imagine how much work it would be to start a new district. I'm not going to whine that other people aren't doing that work, but I will definitely be happy when we finally go that direction in this part of the country.

maxnz

12-03-2016, 13:25

So, should we work on this now while we have a few weeks until the next MN competitions? Or should we wait until May after championships is over before we do anything? Personally, I'd prefer sooner, but I want to know what you all think first.

BBaltrusch

12-03-2016, 20:24

Ginger Power

12-03-2016, 21:09

I'm all for MN districts, as long as the North Dakota teams are allowed in. There's only 3 of us and we're on the eastern side of the state. It's a loooong way to a regional if not. I believe South Dakota has 2 teams but they're on the western side and go to events that way. I'm volunteering at Iowa and would be happy to talk with anyone there.

My 2 biggest concerns about MN going to districts are putting ND teams on an island, and our partnership with the Minnesota State High School Leauge, specifically the State Championship event held after the official FRC season. I think both things could be worked out, but I don't personally see a simple solution to the State Championship issue. I'd love to hear the ideas from people in this thread for how that issue can be worked out.

hutchMN

12-03-2016, 21:28

novamx3

12-03-2016, 21:48

As a mentor for a team who currently does not volunteer, I can tell you that I'd be willing to take on a role in a district event, or a few of them, if I didn't have to miss more of my day job than I already do. Currently, I sit in the stands and watch my team compete at regionals. If I felt there was a need beyond working the safety glasses (which I have my students do) I'd have volunteered years ago. I make it a point to talk to and work with as many teams as possible between matches but that's slightly redundant since there are others that already do that, and my students can handle it. I've got 9 years of FRC experience as a mentor but none as a volunteer or tournament organizer.

My point is, there have to be at least a couple of dozen mentors that would step up to make this happen. We'd gladly host an event and the entire thing would save us $3,000 a year plus travel costs... I'd guess I've got at least 3 or 4 other mentors on my team that could handle key roles in district events...

If you build it, they will come!

Ginger Power

12-03-2016, 22:39

I don’t view the state championship in such high regards that it should dramatically hinder FRC in MN. There would be a district champs that, at least for me, would more than make up for it. I think MN FRIST, to be somewhat competitive, has to make the change very soon. I’m planning on volunteering next year just to help with the whole “we need more volunteers" argument. If state means so much, we could have a state championship with only MN teams (assuming MN going to districts would include ND teams).

The Minnesota State Championship is so much more than just another off season competition. The partnership with the MSHSL gives validation to many teams within their schools. When 4607 won State in 2013, we brought Becker High School its 3rd State Championship in its history. That's something that "non-robotics" students can look at, and relate to. The next year our team grew by more than 200%.

When we go to districts, we need to find a way to maintain the partnership with the MSHSL. In my mind, it's not an option, it has to continue. I think that sentiment is shared by those who have decision making power within MN FIRST. In my opinion every state would benefit by partnering with its version of the Minnesota State High School League.

As for districts... I'd love to see it happen. I also understand the arguments made by both sides (for the most part). Districts would undoubtedly raise the competitive level in Minnesota (there is no question about that. Those that deny this fact are ignorant to the facts). Right now, MN teams aren't as strong on average as many other regions. That's partially because we're a very young region, but it's also partially because the teams in MN get so little opportunity to improve at a 2nd event. It's very hard to get into 2 Minnesota regionals.

One thing I would really miss about the regional system is the super events hosted at Minneapolis and Duluth. There's just something about having 120+ teams in one location, not to mention teams from Hawaii, China, and Australia. It's a tradeoff going to the district system for sure, and I can absolutely see why people would want to hang on to the regional system. In my mind, the competitive, and financial improvements are worth the change.

Eventually districts are going to happen. I think the groundwork is in place that we will be ready when it happens. There is work to do, but there is always work to do. I definitely agree with the Field of Dreams approach, "If you build it, they will come".

hutchMN

12-03-2016, 22:59

The Minnesota State Championship is so much more than just another off season competition. The partnership with the MSHSL gives validation to many teams within their schools. When 4607 won State in 2013, we brought Becker High School its 3rd State Championship in its history. That's something that "non-robotics" students can look at, and relate to. The next year our team grew by more than 200%.

When we go to districts, we need to find a way to maintain the partnership with the MSHSL. In my mind, it's not an option, it has to continue. I think that sentiment is shared by those who have decision making power within MN FIRST. In my opinion every state would benefit by partnering with its version of the Minnesota State High School League.

As for districts... I'd love to see it happen. I also understand the arguments made by both sides (for the most part). Districts would undoubtedly raise the competitive level in Minnesota (there is no question about that. Those that deny this fact are ignorant to the facts). Right now, MN teams aren't as strong on average as many other regions. That's partially because we're a very young region, but it's also partially because the teams in MN get so little opportunity to improve at a 2nd event. It's very hard to get into 2 Minnesota regionals.

One thing I would really miss about the regional system is the super events hosted at Minneapolis and Duluth. There's just something about having 120+ teams in one location, not to mention teams from Hawaii, China, and Australia. It's a tradeoff going to the district system for sure, and I can absolutely see why people would want to hang on to the regional system. In my mind, the competitive, and financial improvements are worth the change.

Eventually districts are going to happen. I think the groundwork is in place that we will be ready when it happens. There is work to do, but there is always work to do. I definitely agree with the Field of Dreams approach, "If you build it, they will come".
I didn’t really think of it from that point of view. I went to a school with many state championships to its name, and it really devalues them. I’m guessing if MN went to districts we would include other areas outside of MN, and that would still leave room for a MN state championship offseason event similar to the current model. We could also take the average points from the first two events instead of just the first event, which would be a big plus in my book.

DonRotolo

12-03-2016, 23:05

There definitely isn't a great solution to this problem, other than going to districts, but that has been addressed in the past.tl;dr

Districts are good for teams, but there's a lot of effort needed. Good thing there are active alumni who volunteer, without them it won't work.

maxnz

12-03-2016, 23:09

Districts would undoubtedly raise the competitive level in Minnesota (there is no question about that. Those that deny this fact are ignorant to the facts). Right now, MN teams aren't as strong on average as many other regions. That's partially because we're a very young region, but it's also partially because the teams in MN get so little opportunity to improve at a 2nd event. It's very hard to get into 2 Minnesota regionals.

No Minnesota team has ever won Einstein. I looked. (2512 did make it to the Einstein finals last year)

cadandcookies

12-03-2016, 23:19

My 2 biggest concerns about MN going to districts are putting ND teams on an island, and our partnership with the Minnesota State High School Leauge, specifically the State Championship event held after the official FRC season. I think both things could be worked out, but I don't personally see a simple solution to the State Championship issue. I'd love to hear the ideas from people in this thread for how that issue can be worked out.

In my opinion there are two clear paths forward for MSHSL in our hypothetical districts future:

1: MSHSL State Championship gets blended into the FIRST State Championship

Obviously, this only works if we don't take any other states along with us to districts. I also have no idea how amenable MSHSL would be to this, but it doesn't seem particularly complicated if nobody's feelings are going to get hurt.

2: MSHSL continues as is, but now they can count two events per team

Also a pretty simple way forward, there's just a 'small' naming issue with having two State Tournaments. This also doesn't seem particularly complicated to me. The perhaps minor change to this versus the FIRST model is that the MSHSL model would likely simply be the first two events anywhere that a team attends, as opposed to the first two events in district (which, as I understand it, is how district events are).

In the second case there's a question of whether to assess point rankings based on how MN calculates them or how FIRST calculates them. Obviously the first method is easier than the second, but there are some good fairness reasons that MN currently calculates based on the first event. That strikes me more as a discussion that needs to happen versus a major complication.

There may be other alternatives, but those are the two that come to mind.

Wow, I hope I can worry about this more soon.

No Minnesota team has ever won Einstein. I looked. (2512 did make it to the Einstein finals last year)

If you look back further, you'll see that last year was the first time Minnesota wheels touched the Einstein carpet.

pilleya

13-03-2016, 00:09

From my view, 8 matches to prove yourself is too few.
Here in Australia, most teams (mine included) only get 8 matches to prove ourselves and qualify for a shot at Championships (excluding chairmans of course). 8 matches. That's it. We can't split into events per state since there's not enough teams yet, with many teams competing in our regional coming from Taiwan and China..

Australia is a big country, there is currently only 1 regional, which is a week three event which is located in Sydney, on the otherside of the country from teams like 5333,5663 and 4788. For those teams to come to the regional in Sydney the only option is to fly as it is a 4000km(2500 mile) journey by road. Australia is roughly the same size as the USA, so it would be like travelling from the West Coast to New York to attend a regional, and flights are quite expensive because of this. Currently the other nearest regional is Hawaii and a few Australian teams attend, this year team 3132 competed at Northern Lights, and will compete at the Australian Regional and Hawaiian Regional in the coming weeks and team 4613 is competing at the Australian Regional and then the Western Canada Regional

Jaci

13-03-2016, 00:29

Australia is a big country, there is currently only 1 regional, which is a week three event which is located in Sydney, on the otherside of the country from teams like 5333,5663 and 4788. For those teams to come to the regional in Sydney the only option is to fly as it is a 4000km(2500 mile) journey by road. Australia is roughly the same size as the USA, so it would be like travelling from the West Coast to New York to attend a regional, and flights are quite expensive because of this. Currently the other nearest regional is Hawaii and a few Australian teams attend, this year team 3132 competed at Northern Lights, and will compete at the Australian Regional and Hawaiian Regional in the coming weeks and team 4613 is competing at the Australian Regional and then the Western Canada Regional

As a member of 5333, I'm more than aware and agree. Over the next few years, we are planning to start more FRC teams in Western Australia, however I stick with my point that going to more than 1 regional is quite a hefty expense. Looking at the TBA page of the Australian Regional (http://www.thebluealliance.com/event/2016ausy) you can see that the large majority of teams do choose to only compete in the Australian Regional. For these teams, I'm sure you'd agree that only 8 matches to play (assuming they are not picked up in alliance selections) is very few

Al Skierkiewicz

13-03-2016, 00:35

While watching Top 25 last night they brought up the point that many regional competition only offer 8 qualification plays per team. In Minnesota we have 208 teams, and a vast majority of those teams only get one event a year.

I see 2 major issues with this:
-This make the $5000 it costs to register for events pretty crazy, $625 a match isn't appealing for many of the low budget teams around FIRST.
-This also leaves the teams that do qualify for champs hugely unprepared. Most MN teams at champs will have ~20 plays, versus district teams that will have 40+ plays. EDIT: Many teams come into champs with 80+ plays

There definitely isn't a great solution to this problem, other than going to districts, but that has been addressed in the past.

Peter,
Are you aware of the push to get other regionals in MN.? Are you aware of the demand on volunteers for the existing events? Did you mention the number of teams served in the double Duluth event? The Minnesota events are some of the largest in the country.
In Duluth, the volunteer picture took an entire field to hold and the photographer was required to take the picture from the balcony. And still there were not enough.
There are people working tirelessly behind the scenes to continue to improve MN. However, among other issues, many rural teams in MN do not have enough adults to supply the volunteer pool at the event they attend. I know the volunteer coordinator personally and the job of manning all of the required volunteer positions is nearly impossible. While teams may not be happy with the number of matches at a single event, there are a variety of other alternatives that a team can follow. I can assure you (and everyone reading this) that every event in MN is working hard to get volunteers. Many come from other states, without their teams, to volunteer at MN events including the State Championship. I wish Illinois had a State Championship. We have tried to influence the state for many years but thus far have failed. A lot more of our teams get only one regional event and have no state champs to look forward to.

Nick,
Do you know of any other sport in Minnesota that has two championships? The State League is not as simple as you like to think.

WildStang has been around for a long time. Our rookie year, the only regional was in Manchester and the Champs were in Disney World. Our second year, there were two regionals, Manchester and Chicago. When other regionals started later, we traveled to Ann Arbor, MI. That event was further from us than Duluth. Teams work out the issues to get to events. Minnesota teams will work out this issues too. The same for Sydney, which I expect will be a wonderful event. While there will not be as many rookies as the first Minnesota event (I was LRI at that event), there will be more than twenty and some from very small, outback schools. I pray they all will have a wonderful time. I will do my best to make that happen, see you in a few days.

pilleya

13-03-2016, 00:47

For these teams, I'm sure you'd agree that only 8 matches to play (assuming they are not picked up in alliance selections) is very few

Yes I completely agree, also the 8 match system means that teams who might have a problem with their robot in a few matches, or as can be a problem in Australia due to the young age of teams, teams which have capable robots can receive low rank because they have ended up in poor alliances during qualifications. For example at the 2015 Australia Regional, we encountered some issues with the Logitech game pad, and as a result we were unable to use our stacking mechanism for the entirety of the match and we were the only team on our alliance whose robot was moving.

jajabinx124

13-03-2016, 00:49

If you look back further, you'll see that last year was the first time Minnesota wheels touched the Einstein carpet.

And a MN bot was nail bitingly close to winning Einstein last year too even though it was MN's first year on Einstein..

Ginger Power

13-03-2016, 00:56

I know the volunteer coordinator personally and the job of manning all of the required volunteer positions is nearly impossible.

Can confirm that managing volunteers is incredibly difficult. In my short experience managing around 30 Bison Robotics Volunteers, I can say it's one if the most challenging things I've done. I work very closely with the Volunteer Coordinator for Minnesota and I am blown away by how smoothly the events run, given the challenges that are overcome. Nothing but positive things to say about the leadership in Minnesota.

I'm not so sure that the "rural teams" in Minnesota don't have volunteers to contribute. Being that I'm from one of those rural teams, and I work with many more of them within our local hub, I know they have volunteers to contribute. They just have no incentive to do so right now. Now obviously there are smaller teams out there, and teams that would be incapable of providing volunteers, but there are many more teams out there with enough people to provide many volunteers. I would argue the latter outnumber the former.

I fully agree that MN FIRST is doing their best, and the leadership is doing their best. I'm very appreciative of their efforts. I just wish I could do more to help.

Jaci

13-03-2016, 00:56

Yes I completely agree, also the 8 match system means that teams who might have a problem with their robot in a few matches, or as can be a problem in Australia due to the young age of teams, teams which have capable robots can receive low rank because they have ended up in poor alliances during qualifications. For example at the 2015 Australia Regional, we encountered some issues with the Logitech game pad, and as a result we were unable to use our stacking mechanism. We were the only team on our alliance whose robot was moving.

I recall this being quite common. 4788 was having a similar issue with their gamepad, and so we had to share our Xbox controller between two teams, which got interesting when both teams had to compete at the same time. I also recall many teams having software issues, as most of my time was spent running around getting other people's robots up and running. Hopefully we see some good alliances made this year. I pray to the FMS gods

Chief Hedgehog

13-03-2016, 01:51

HurdFIRST

13-03-2016, 03:43

Gonna level with you guys, there's a lot of text walls in this thread and I did not read all of them. I'm just gonna comment on my unique experience.

As a key volunteer I'm currently writing this post while laying on the floor of a Kettering University student's dorm, next to the gym I just announced a district in for the second straight week. I did 11 FRC events in total last year and plan on doing 8 more this year.

The volunteers in Michigan aren't aquaintances, we're family. That's why Zach Orr flies from Atlanta to Flint just so he can introduce teams on my shoulders, that's why FTA's Rob and Eric are superman and batman respectively, and it's why I'll always have a couch (or floor) to crash on within the borders of the mitten state.

Your key volunteers might not have the time to do 12 events, but your college students are young proffesionals who are passionate about impacting lives like their volunteers did for them. These college students have the time to do 6 weeks of events, and they understand how to keep the competition experience relevant since they understand what it's like to compete as a student.

Dave Verbrugge and Tom Nader do not do 6 events a season in Michigan as an MC/GA duo, but they're still directly responsible for showing me how to make incredible formative experiences for the students at the combined 19 events I've participated in these past two years.

Changing lives as a key volunteer is not a right reserved for the "elite" among us anymore. If you're afraid that someone's going to be "just meh" at scorekeeping more than you're afraid that some kids at an inner city Minneanapolis school won't be able to participate because of the price, then you need to reavaluate why you're even here.

Did the DJ at today's St. Joseph event play smooth jazz dinner music before the final elim match? He sure did and it kinda killed my buzz. Did it stop the students on Stryke Force from making a memory they'll always remember as they won that blue banner? No it sure didn't!

I'm not here for the vibe, I'm here to impact lives.

#BringOutYourDead

Al Skierkiewicz

13-03-2016, 04:00

Bryan Herbst

13-03-2016, 08:53

I'm not so sure that the "rural teams" in Minnesota don't have volunteers to contribute. Being that I'm from one of those rural teams, and I work with many more of them within our local hub, I know they have volunteers to contribute. They just have no incentive to do so right now. Now obviously there are smaller teams out there, and teams that would be incapable of providing volunteers, but there are many more teams out there with enough people to provide many volunteers. I would argue the latter outnumber the former.

When I think "rural" I don't think "Becker." You guys are certainly more rural than New Brighton, but still what I would consider suburban (subrurban-lite?). I don't mean to devalue you or Becker- you guys do some awesome stuff! I just have a slightly different definition that I think will clear up the point on rural teams.

When I talk about rural teams who don't have the resources to provide volunteers, I'm talking about schools like Bug-O-Nay-Ge-Shig which had an enrollment of 197 in 2014 compared to Becker's ~800. Bug-O-Nay-Ge-Shig is is in Bena, MN, which has a population of 118 compared to Becker's 4,645.

They actually did have an FRC team from 2010 through 2013. They were one of my favorite teams back when I was an inspector because I could tell how much work they put into getting a viable robot put together and down to the Twin Cities.

Ginger Power

13-03-2016, 09:24

Ryan,
I don't want to blame rural teams, I am just pointing to the issue that some have. That is one or perhaps two mentors working incredibly hard to bring FRC to their small school. I cannot ask a mentor in that situation to volunteer when they are already working harder than I am, to insure their small team has a quality program. My hat is off to those teams and their dedicated mentors.

I fully agree. Sorry if I implied that you were "blaming" rural teams. There are teams in Minnesota that can't do anything more than field a semi-functional robot. I have a huge respect for those mentors that make that happen from little to no resources.

I just meant to say that MN FIRST shouldn't let the limits of some teams limit the improvement of the organization as a whole. When districts happen, if there is a volunteer requirement, exceptions will have to be made in the cases of these hard-working, yet small teams.

Ginger Power

13-03-2016, 09:45

When I think "rural" I don't think "Becker." You guys are certainly more rural than New Brighton, but still what I would consider suburban (subrurban-lite?). I don't mean to devalue you or Becker- you guys do some awesome stuff! I just have a slightly different definition that I think will clear up the point on rural teams.

When I talk about rural teams who don't have the resources to provide volunteers, I'm talking about schools like Bug-O-Nay-Ge-Shig which had an enrollment of 197 in 2014 compared to Becker's ~800. Bug-O-Nay-Ge-Shig is is in Bena, MN, which has a population of 118 compared to Becker's 4,645.

They actually did have an FRC team from 2010 through 2013. They were one of my favorite teams back when I was an inspector because I could tell how much work they put into getting a viable robot put together and down to the Twin Cities.

In terms of population you have a great point. I don't see your post as devaluing Becker at all! It's kind of cool that we're not looked at as a bunch of people from the sticks :D

I'm of the mindset that any non-twin cities/Duluth team is rural. Your definition fits the situation far better. I agree that there are rural teams that fit your definition that can't contribute volunteers. DROBA Warriors from Deer River (3036) is an example. They have a graduating class of ~30 people. As I mentioned in my post above, I don't think the number of small teams outweighs the volunteer power of the larger teams in MN. In other words, I think the larger teams can make up the volunteer deficit that the smaller teams will leave.

I'm not sure that my statement is true regionally, especially in northern Minnesota. It'd be very interesting to see some data about the size of teams in Minnesota on a map. It'd provide some nice, positive reinforcement for the "build it and they will come" statement that myself and others have put out there. It might be that there is literally nobody to come, even if the desire is there.

Zebra_Fact_Man

13-03-2016, 10:31

Jaci

13-03-2016, 11:05

Like it or not, when the student signs up for robotics, the parent does too.

No.

Parents are there to support their child, but don't sign up for the role of what is essentially unpaid work. Students go to FRC to do what THEY want to do, under the guidance of their mentors (the ones who actually sign up for this), their parents shouldn't be roped into doing volunteer work. While some parents are more than happy to volunteer, for others this concept is just simply too far out of reach

cadandcookies

13-03-2016, 19:04

Nick,
Do you know of any other sport in Minnesota that has two championships? The State League is not as simple as you like to think.

No, I do not. It's worth noting though that the case where Minnesota goes to districts solo and MSHSL refuses to blend the state tournaments strikes me as less likely than the other two scenarios (if we go to districts with anyone else, we aren't hosting a MN State tournament, it's a district championship for an area that includes MN), unless someone as tactful as I am is handling that discussion (which I would hope wouldn't be the case).

With regards to your last point, you are (partially) correct-- the "what to do with MN State" is a thorny issue within an even thornier issue. My post did not reflect that complexity, and I can definitely see how it comes off as me having little appreciation for the effort that goes into the tournament, or a lack of understanding of the complexities involved in running it (or any event). While it may be true that I do not have the first hand experience of spending years volunteering and building a regional system from scratch, I do have an exceptional amount of respect and appreciation for the people that have made the events that changed my life as a student possible.

And for those of you that discount the MN State Tourney as a mere off-season event - you are incredibly wrong. I can speak for all the teams involved as they take this event as seriously as any other FRC event.

You cannot speak for every team involved. This is true of your team and your area, but it is not universally true. When I was on 2220, the state tournament WAS seen as a glorified offseason event by many of us involved. Heck, I've been vocal in the past about that view point. Since then I've come to appreciate it much more-- making state was HUGE for 2667 last year.

That being said, I can't say that an extra event for ~30 out of 208 teams is nearly as important in my mind as getting EVERY team a second play, and possible triple the matches (without considering extra events like Champs, District Champs, a third play, or elimination matches). Up until this year, 4607 has been in the same 1-regional club as 2667, and I know you guys have been in the same boat of having bad luck ruin your chances of qualifying for Championships. You know how bad it is to be in that position, and, since you've made it to doing two regionals, I assume you know how hard it is to find the funds to do another event.

The MN State Championship, or another regional (heck, as many regionals as you want to add here) are NOT a replacement for a district system. They are part of a system that benefit disproportionately teams that can afford the costs of another regional, or are already performing well enough that they've qualified for Champs (about half of the teams that qualified for MSHSL last year attended Champs in '14 or '15, and an even larger percentage attended two or more "actual" events). It is very difficult for teams to break a cycle of low performance and low funding (which feed into each other). It happens, but it certainly isn't the norm. Adding regionals, a state championship-- they're not solutions to the problem. They're at best band aids on a gaping chest wound of inequity, and at worst, things that can make us complacent.

Towards this end: 8 matches for regionals are only acceptable if we let them be, if we sit back and hope that the people in charge can somehow put the whole world on their shoulders. I know that the broader community can take some of that weight, but we need to actually step up and take it, and be welcomed to do so. It is not the person organizing volunteers who is doing the volunteers a favor by giving them a position-- it is a mutually beneficial relationship that doesn't work to its fullest potential unless both parties are willing to trust the other.

I am extremely proud, happy, excited about the progress robotics programs have made in MN and generally around the world, even since I started competing, but especially from the humble beginnings of FIRST in general. Yet there is so much more yet to be done. So much more we can do, and so much more that we can become. I can see this future in Michigan, I can see it from New England to the Pacific Northwest, and yes, I can see parts of it in Minnesota. But if we cannot take advantage of ALL the resources available to us-- this includes college students, alumni, and, more broadly, people that don't "fit the mold" of being key volunteers-- it is likely too difficult of a future for just a few people to build. FIRST excels at creating a community broader than just grey-haired professionals mentoring white suburban students-- we can leverage that incredible diversity of talent and passion to create a beautiful future for our communities.

rich2202

13-03-2016, 20:43

While watching Top 25 last night they brought up the point that many regional competition only offer 8 qualification plays per team. In Minnesota we have 208 teams, and a vast majority of those teams only get one event a year.

At the Kansas City Regional, they offered 10 plays for 59 teams. Admittedly, the field team had to play through lunch, and they still ended 45 minutes late on Thursday. They were late too on Friday, but not as bad.

A lot of the problem was with the Radio this year. Seems to be worse than last year. Field Reset was only a problem for one or two matches (removing a stuck defense, or repairing the Sally Port), but not a long delay like some Radio delays.

Any thoughts on having Load-in and Pits open on Wednesday around Noon? Practice Rounds could start at 9 am on Thursday, with Qualification Rounds starting at 1:00 pm. RI's and Practice Field would be needed a day early on Wednesday. Everyone else would need to be ready at 9am on Thursday, rather than Noon.

Karthik

14-03-2016, 00:07

I know people who have been called up and told not to post here about districts in MN, or to be told that they would not be assigned to a volunteer role because of posts on social media or CD. I know that there are incredibly talented and passionate people who have just flat out given up on volunteering here in Minnesota because they no longer want to deal with the "Minnesota drama."

There's a lot of good discussion in this thread, but this comment by Nick is concerning. If the leadership of an organization is threatening volunteers for posting on CD about districts, I think that organization has larger problems than trying to make a switch to districts. Hopefully what Nick is referring to is a small number of isolated incidents as opposed to a concerted effort by a region to stifle open discussion.

Boe

14-03-2016, 02:19

And for those of you that discount the MN State Tourney as a mere off-season event - you are incredibly wrong. I can speak for all the teams involved as they take this event as seriously as any other FRC event. 4607's initial goal every season is the MSHSL Tournament.

No you cannot speak for all teams involved. When I was a student the MN State Championship just another off season for me, compared to the real prize of going to and trying to win at worlds, or even going to IRI. I would much rather go to my first event sit dead on the field during every match and not go to states, if it meant having all issues worked out for our next event and doing well and going to worlds. I have spoken to a number of students who share this same opinion. Perhaps part of the reason I feel this way is that I dont agree with how teams advance to the state championship (I feel it should be your best event or the average of all your events), this comes from my idea of what the goal of the state championship should be which doesn't necessarily align with MN FIRST.

Honestly, at this point I'm not sure what the deal is. It seems like everyone is acting according to what they believe to be the program's best interests at heart, but somewhere along the line the community here lost an entire set of people who could have been welcomed into helping FRC in Minnesota move forward, but have instead been pushed away from volunteering (or in some cases even being a part of the program). I know people who have been called up and told not to post here about districts in MN, or to be told that they would not be assigned to a volunteer role because of posts on social media or CD. I know that there are incredibly talented and passionate people who have just flat out given up on volunteering here in Minnesota because they no longer want to deal with the "Minnesota drama."

This is extremely troubling and very disappointing that this is something that happens in Minnesota, though from the way I've heard certain people in MN FIRST talk about districts it is not entirely surprising. During my time in Minnesota I talked to many people mentors and students from large teams, small teams, teams with large budgets, teams with small budgets, ect. and the vast majority of people I talked to were in favor of districts (and 100% of the students were in favor of them, once I explained what they were).

Also the MN-ND-WI-IA region is basically at capacity for how many play spots there are vs how many are desired, if not for the addition of the Iowa regional there would have been a fair number of teams not able to get a second play, which is very discouraging for teams that work hard to fundraise enough for that second play only to find out there isn't a spot for them.

To add on as someone who competed in MN throughout highschool and now attends school in Michigan I can attest to one of the biggest arguments for regionals vs districts arguments.

Venues: While competing at Mariucci or the DECC is awesome and I would argue some of the best venues in FRC they lose some of their charm when your in a giant stadium and there are four dead/broken bots on the field. After volunteering at the Kettering district the I didn't really noticed the smaller and more personal size of the space but it did not detract from the event.

I may post some of my other thoughts on having now experienced a district event after doing for years of regionals if I get some time with all the studying for finals

Chief Hedgehog

14-03-2016, 02:20

You cannot speak for every team involved. This is true of your team and your area, but it is not universally true. When I was on 2220, the state tournament WAS seen as a glorified offseason event by many of us involved. Heck, I've been vocal in the past about that view point. Since then I've come to appreciate it much more-- making state was HUGE for 2667 last year.

That being said, I can't say that an extra event for ~30 out of 208 teams is nearly as important in my mind as getting EVERY team a second play, and possible triple the matches (without considering extra events like Champs, District Champs, a third play, or elimination matches). Up until this year, 4607 has been in the same 1-regional club as 2667, and I know you guys have been in the same boat of having bad luck ruin your chances of qualifying for Championships. You know how bad it is to be in that position, and, since you've made it to doing two regionals, I assume you know how hard it is to find the funds to do another event.

You are correct Nick - I should not have spoken for all teams in Minnesota. It is just that my team has our sights on the State Tourney every season. This is our main objective. And in the two seasons that we were fortunate enough to qualify - the other teams were all in to win it. A regional win (and it's qualification to the World Champs) is one thing, but to most school-attached teams, a State Tournament berth means much more to the local community.

As for my logic - if the team qualifies for the State Tourney, more than likely the team qualified for the Champs (or had been honored with great awards and finished high in the quals). So I always gear my kids up for a State Berth. Last year was a disappointment as our robot could not connect to FMS for 6 of the matches and browned out in 2. This year was different as we carried our alliance partners in the first day and then had to show our defensive prowess the last day.

I am optimistic that MN can get to Districts soon - and in doing so there should be a way that the 'District Championships' can also double as the MSHSL State Tournament. If this is a non-starter for either organization, then I feel that we will remain as a Regional area for some time - and that is a severe concern for the students and schools involved. At this point, there is little we can do about the problem.

I have been a MSHSL coach in multiple sports for over 10 years - and I know that sometimes the powers that be in that organization can be difficult. However, I am optimistic that with the strong growth of FRC in MN can help to sway some of the officials at the MSHSL office. A great concern for me is that there is no FRC/Robotics representation in the MSHSL office or in the MSHSCA ranks. I am also aware that they (MSHSL) do not want to set a precedent (as they have been sued a few times in the last number of years). This is a warranted concern.

For my part, I have been a coach for most of my adult life - and as much as I would like to think that all adults would look out for the betterment of student achievement, this is not always the case. But in the case of MN FIRST - and all of my dealings with them - they are truly looking out for the betterment of the students and the brand of MN FIRST.

I will end with this - FRC (and the CD Community) is amazing. Here we are debating what is best for the students and the teams. We are not arguing over trivial aspects - we are discussing (passionately) the potential growth problems of an organization that we all love. Where else do you find this type of discussion?

hutchMN

14-03-2016, 03:20

As far as Minnesota is concerned:

In NO WAY can the MSHSL League be discounted. They were incredible enough to include FRC as a legitimate organization. I cannot state enough how much respect I have for MN FIRST as well as the MSHSL to make this happen. A third partner in all of this (the UofM) cannot be overlooked as they provide the space and time for the MSHSL FRC Tournament to happen. As we move forward - there must be only ONE state championship, otherwise it will be watered down.

And for those of you that discount the MN State Tourney as a mere off-season event - you are incredibly wrong. I can speak for all the teams involved as they take this event as seriously as any other FRC event. 4607's initial goal every season is the MSHSL Tournament.

In fact, Becker High School takes FRC seriously as it hangs TWO banners for our FRC team in the Gymnasium for our 2013 and 2014 state title runs. The community thinks it is important as well - when you enter Becker via US Hwy 10 you will see FRC 4607 State Champs 2013 hanging proudly on the sign.

When MN FIRST goes districts, the format must be a MSHSL tourney event.

All teams in MN have different goals. Speaking to the captains on 2502 tonight, they would much rather win a regional than win the state championship. Our goal for this season is to make it to Einstein after our fairly good 2015 season (so we would much rather qualify for worlds than play in a offseason event). I also don’t believe the state championship point system is fair. The ranking system in qualification is broken in MN events due to the lack of qualification matches making parts of the state championship’s ranking system broken in return. I do believe 2502 is a good example of this, they had the highest goal points per match average in FRC for week 1 and showed how dominate they were in eliminations (second highest alliance average for weeks 0.5 and 1 with the help of our great alliance partners 2883 and 5232), but they ended up seeding 31st at the event during qualifications (5172 is another great example of how broken the ranking system was at northern lights due to the lack of qualification matches). I know there is at least some teams in the state that view the state championship as just another offseason event. Not saying either side is right, but I don’t think it’s as cut and dry as you’re making it out to be. You also don’t speak for all the teams in MN.

pntbll1313

14-03-2016, 11:18

All teams in MN have different goals. I also don’t believe the state championship point system is fair. The ranking system in qualification is broken in MN events due to the lack of qualification matches making parts of the state championship’s ranking system broken in return. I do believe 2502 is a good example of this, they had the highest goal points per match average in FRC for week 1 and showed how dominate they were in eliminations (second highest alliance average for weeks 0.5 and 1 with the help of our great alliance partners 2883 and 5232), but they ended up seeding 31st at the event during qualifications (5172 is another great example of how broken the ranking system was at northern lights due to the lack of qualification matches). I know there is at least some teams in the state that view the state championship as just another offseason event. Not saying either side is right, but I don’t think it’s as cut and dry as you’re making it out to be. You also don’t speak for all the teams in MN.

All teams do have different goals. Trying to qualify for State is very important to us. Our school isn't a perennial powerhouse in sports, so bringing home a MSHSL championship gets us noticed. Any recognition we can get from our school to legitimize robotics and put us on a more level playing field with other activities like football is a win to me. We've been fortunate enough to qualify for State every year and we'll continue to try to do that.

I agree the ranking system isn't great, but don't they use a similar structure to the districts? As far as I know your seed doesn't factor into how many points you get to qualify for State. Even your W/L is weighted pretty low compared to how early you get picked and how you perform in eliminations.

Chief Hedgehog

14-03-2016, 11:24

All teams in MN have different goals. You also don’t speak for all the teams in MN.
Duly noted. Second time in fact.

Caleb Sykes

14-03-2016, 11:27

I also don’t believe the state championship point system is fair. The ranking system in qualification is broken in MN events due to the lack of qualification matches making parts of the state championship’s ranking system broken in return.

Additionally, the 10 points that teams can get just for submitting for Chairman's is overvalued and misguided. By and large, this just incentivizes rushed and sloppy Chairman's submissions.

Ginger Power

14-03-2016, 11:37

I agree the ranking system isn't great, but don't they use a similar structure to the districts? As far as I know your seed doesn't factor into how many points you get to qualify for State. Even your W/L is weighted pretty low compared to how early you get picked and how you perform in eliminations.

The ranking system is essentially the same the district ranking system to my knowledge. The biggest differences are that Chairman's Award winning teams qualify automatically, and only your first event counts.

I'm not sure how I feel about CA winners automatically qualifying... I like that we're rewarding the teams that win the most prestigious award in FIRST, but it doesn't necessarily bring the best teams to the competition. Although if your team is winning CA, you probably have a competitive team anyways, at least that's what I gather by checking out past winners.

I definitely know how I feel about a teams second event not counting. If the goal of the state championship is to have all the best teams in the state competing to figure out the best of the best then you have to count a second regional. You can do an average of the results of the first and second regionals to maintain some parity, but the teams that go to 2 events will get better at their second event.

If the goal of the state championship is anything other than figuring out the best of the best... then don't call it a state championship.

I know this thread is about 8 regional plays being fair or not, but let's be honest, it has evolved into an open discussion about FIRST in Minnesota. A discussion that is important, and should happen.

Jon Stratis

14-03-2016, 11:46

Just a few details on the MN State Ranking system. It is based on the district system, with a couple of modifications. To encourage teams to pursue chairman's, points are awarded for that submission. And since most teams in MN only do one event, we just recognize the team's first event for points. This is the same for districts - every team there does two events, so they recognize the first two, even if the team competes every weekend. Details on the system can be found here (http://mnfirst.org/docs/2016/MSHSL_2016.pdf). Current standings can be found here (http://mnfirst.org/docs/2016/States_2016.pdf).

Those details give a maximum number of points in each category:
Qual ranking: 22 points
alliance selection: 16 points
elims performance: 30 points
awards: 5/8 points per award

As for the two teams mentioned... 2502 may have been ranked 31, and there is an issue with good teams occasionally being ranked low, and vice versa. However, in the state rankings, they came out with the third highest total points for the weekend. 5172 was ranked 16th, and came out with the 5th highest total points for the state rankings. So from that perspective, the state rankings seem to be doing what they're supposed to be doing - both of those teams should have no problem getting into States, despite having event rankings lower than they should have been (based on comments here, I really have no idea how high any team should have been at either event).

And while I didn't really see much at Northern Lights, I have to ask - was 2502's ranking caused by bad alliance matchups, or because their strategy (going for high goals) wasn't as effective in earning ranking points as other strategies (such as getting breaches)? How often did they get breaches compared to others, versus capturing the tower? From what i've seen, the dominant strategy during quals is to breach while scoring a few balls, with very few matches resulting in a capture. That extra RP for a breach really helps with the rankings!

ehochstein

14-03-2016, 11:52

So you want to move to districts? I do too.

There are a lot of logistical items that have to be done to make that happen, such as a non-profit to run FIRST in MN, volunteer trainings, equipment purchase lists and much more. In fact, I think Nick Aarestad did a good job summarizing a few of the items in this thread from last year. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136404) I love seeing all of the offerings for help in this thread with the transition but how do we actually move forward? Contact the people that authorize the change, the Regional Directors for the area. I've listed their contact information below. Every year at Championships, the Regional Directors meet with the FIRST Board to determine goals for the upcoming years. They may set deadlines, team growth goals and other items. Something you could do before championships is let them know you want to help and that you want to transition to districts. It wouldn't hurt to include FRCTeams@FIRSTInspires.org on an email about it as well. I think a good first step would be to request to have an open discussion about Districts and Regionals, whether it be at the Minneapolis events or maybe later in the season at an off-season event.

Regional Director
Susan Lawrence
sklsumgrad@comcast.net

Assistant Regional Director
Ken Rosen
kr71@aol.com

I know there have been discussions going on between High Tech Kids and MN FIRST about combining organizations to have one organization that runs all of the FIRST programs in Minnesota. I would encourage you to offer your support to High Tech Kids (http://www.hightechkids.org/contact-us) as well, as they very well could be running FRC in the future.

There's a lot of good discussion in this thread, but this comment by Nick is concerning. If the leadership of an organization is threatening volunteers for posting on CD about districts, I think that organization has larger problems than trying to make a switch to districts. Hopefully what Nick is referring to is a small number of isolated incidents as opposed to a concerted effort by a region to stifle open discussion.

I agree, I've heard concerns about this as well. I'm always one that advocates for open-door discussion, so I hope everyone in MN feels safe posting their opinions about districts on ChiefDelphi.

pHolmgren

14-03-2016, 11:53

As a student on a PNW team, I personally love the district model. Not only does it allow more play time, but also, allows more teams to compete at worlds. In 2014, we wouldn't have qualified without the district model. Overall, there seems to be less stress put on district events making them 100*more fun. All in all, I'm glad we have the district model and I would encourage the rest of FIRST to be part of it.

maxnz

14-03-2016, 12:02

So you want to move to districts? I do too.

There are a lot of logistical items that have to be done to make that happen, such as a non-profit to run FIRST in MN, volunteer trainings, equipment purchase lists and much more. In fact, I think Nick Aarestad did a good job summarizing a few of the items in this thread from last year. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136404) I love seeing all of the offerings for help in this thread with the transition but how do we actually move forward? Contact the people that authorize the change, the Regional Directors for the area. I've listed their contact information below. Every year at Championships, the Regional Directors meet with the FIRST Board to determine goals for the upcoming years. They may set deadlines, team growth goals and other items. Something you could do before championships is let them know you want to help and that you want to transition to districts. It wouldn't hurt to include FRCTeams@FIRSTInspires.org on an email about it as well. I think a good first step would be to request to have an open discussion about Districts and Regionals, whether it be at the Minneapolis events or maybe later in the season at an off-season event.

Regional Director
Susan Lawrence
sklsumgrad@comcast.net

Assistant Regional Director
Ken Rosen
kr71@aol.com

I know there have been discussions going on between High Tech Kids and MN FIRST about combining organizations to have one organization that runs all of the FIRST programs in Minnesota. I would encourage you to offer your support to High Tech Kids (http://www.hightechkids.org/contact-us) as well, as they very well could be running FRC in the future.

I agree, I've heard concerns about this as well. I'm always one that advocates for open-door discussion, so I hope everyone in MN feels safe posting their opinions about districts on ChiefDelphi.

I am going to talk with my team on Wednesday to see what they say about leading this transition. I think they will be willing to help lead everyone in the transition (at least I am). If they are, we can contact the directors and see what they say and what they may need from us as a community.

ratdude747

14-03-2016, 12:03

There's a lot of good discussion in this thread, but this comment by Nick is concerning. If the leadership of an organization is threatening volunteers for posting on CD about districts, I think that organization has larger problems than trying to make a switch to districts. Hopefully what Nick is referring to is a small number of isolated incidents as opposed to a concerted effort by a region to stifle open discussion.

I agree, although there are a number of things one gets told not to post on CD. There are several, as a young key volunteer, I've been told "you say nothing on chief" about without even mentioning chief. Obviously I won't say what they are, and the reasons why are sound.

My point here is that organizations labeling certain topics as "don't say on chief" isn't anything new, although I absolutely agree that MN Districts shouldn't be one of those topics, as long as it's discussed fairly and respectfully.

CJ_Elliott

14-03-2016, 12:18

Just a few details on the MN State Ranking system. It is based on the district system, with a couple of modifications. To encourage teams to pursue chairman's, points are awarded for that submission. And since most teams in MN only do one event, we just recognize the team's first event for points. This is the same for districts - every team there does two events, so they recognize the first two,

First. Eight matches is not enough to show the quality of a team's robot. Plain and simple. I get that for many teams, one regional is the only 8 matches that they can play all season and I respect the hell out of those teams. State is set up is that a robot can have communications issues that they can't control for the first 7 of the 8 matches they play and not move, and on the 8th match give a show and properly represent their robot. They then can go on and get overlooked and not make it to state even though they could be one of the best robots at the tournament.

Second. People have no opportunity to improve or learn from their mistakes. Last year there were a ton of teams that I saw improve between their first and second regionals. Now this is great for qualifying for worlds. But it isn't helpful at all when it comes to state. I get that everyone is not on the same level and I respect that. But you can't go from 2 totes on the field to 3 stacks of 6 in 8 matches.

Third. We did have some flaws in our strategy when it came down to what our robot did. But I don't think blaming the game is the way to properly approach this. I like this game. If we played the game to score more than the other alliance and overlooked placement, then that's on us even if we didn't catch it.

Nick,
Do you know of any other sport in Minnesota that has two championships? The State League is not as simple as you like to think.

Al,
Do you know of any other sport in the World that has two championships?

Crazyaimer

14-03-2016, 13:12

Peter,
Are you aware of the push to get other regionals in MN.? Are you aware of the demand on volunteers for the existing events? Did you mention the number of teams served in the double Duluth event?

Al,

Please do try and keep things gracious and professional. Now I may be misinterpreting, but please do not be so quick to insult Peter's knowledge. Peter is one of the most knowledgeable people about Minnesota FIRST that I am familiar with, and is more than aware of the concerns listed. Which is likely why he stated that "There definitely isn't a great solution to this problem, other than going to districts, but that has been addressed in the past." These have all been concerns that have been discussed in the past.

I am concerned that comments like yours may be a part of the reason that cadandcookies feels that "people who have been called up and told not to post here about districts in MN." Now I am sure that there are many issues here, but I am sure that we are more than capable of holding a reasonable discussion.

hutchMN

14-03-2016, 13:28

And while I didn't really see much at Northern Lights, I have to ask - was 2502's ranking caused by bad alliance matchups, or because their strategy (going for high goals) wasn't as effective in earning ranking points as other strategies (such as getting breaches)? How often did they get breaches compared to others, versus capturing the tower? From what i've seen, the dominant strategy during quals is to breach while scoring a few balls, with very few matches resulting in a capture. That extra RP for a breach really helps with the rankings!

That’s true, but going for high goals gave us a higher points per match average with leaving easy points for our alliance partners on the table. If we went for the breach every match we would have probably lost 4 matches so the extra ranking points probably would have been a net gain of zero.

ehochstein

14-03-2016, 13:57

Al,

Please do try and keep things gracious and professional. Now I may be misinterpreting, but please do not be so quick to insult Peter's knowledge. Peter is one of the most knowledgeable people about Minnesota FIRST that I am familiar with, and is more than aware of the concerns listed. Which is likely why he stated that "There definitely isn't a great solution to this problem, other than going to districts, but that has been addressed in the past." These have all been concerns that have been discussed in the past.

Let's all remember we are in the same game, on the same team just with different opinions on how to "win". We all want to be inspired and to inspire others to be STEM heroes in our world. We're all very passionate people who only want the best.

I am concerned that comments like yours may be a part of the reason that cadandcookies feels that "people who have been called up and told not to post here about districts in MN." Now I am sure that there are many issues here, but I am sure that we are more than capable of holding a reasonable discussion.

Of course there is always drama, of course there are always politics, which does indeed cause people to become afraid and makes it difficult to post. I've posted a lot of controversial statements in the past about districts. I've been asked (via phone call) to stop posting before and that I shouldn't be posting that sort of information in public. I sincerely hope that, that has not happened to anyone else. I still post here because I believe in what I say and I believe in healthy discussion.

maxnz

14-03-2016, 14:10

Do you know of any other sport in the World that has two championships?

Yeah, FRC in 2017 ;)

FrankJ

14-03-2016, 14:34

[QUOTE=ratdude747;1556840]I agree, although there are a number of things one gets told not to post on CD. There are several, as a young key volunteer, I've been told "you say nothing on chief" about without even mentioning chief. Obviously I won't say what they are, and the reasons why are sound./QUOTE]

I have been volunteering with First for several years now. I have never been told not to comment on CD. I know quite a few senior volunteers and judges that post regularly on CD. Obviously there are subjects where they hold confidential information that they do not comment on. Other areas that would be inappropriate for them to comment on. They also have to be careful that their views are not interpreted to be First official positions. That is far from a general ban.

While this might not be total the other Frank's doing... I have noticed that First has been noticeably more responsive to the Fist communities comments and concerns during his directorship.

Al Skierkiewicz

14-03-2016, 17:42

John,
I was far from ungracious. I merely asked if Peter had knowledge of the things I listed. They are important in this discussion and I do have some knowledge of Minnesota events and their future. I do know that FIRST people in Minnesota are working very hard. Their work shows all over the state. Minnesota has more robotics teams than Boys Hockey. In a state that is hockey oriented that is a big whopping win.

Linkathon1986

14-03-2016, 18:45

I'm sorry; I cannot comprehend the concept of "can't contribute volunteers".
Do you have students on your team? Yes. Good; this means you also have at least 1 parent per student. Even if you have 5 students, that's 5 parents! Look; volunteers!!! Like it or not, when the student signs up for robotics, the parent does too.

I'm sorry. I really am. I had no intentions on entering this, but this has been bothering me for a while. I love FIRST. I made a large mistake joining in my sophomore year, and my parents agree. They are extremely proud of me, its easy to tell. But just because they are my parents and proud doesn't mean that they help. Now don't get me wrong. They really want to. They have made our build team dinner once and gone to the Northern Lights regional to cheer us on, but that's only for only about an hour. They simply don't have time. Mom works and is pregnant with twins, expecting at any time, and Dad is stay-at-home. Soon he has to watch three little kids running around as mom goes to work. I understand that this is not the case for everyone, but in today's age, it is a very real thing to be busy with everyday life.

I'm sorry if I come off as rude. I mean this in a polite way, but I am garbage at conveying my words to not sound irritated or offensive. I merely mean that not everyone will have time to volunteer for a FIRST event .

novamx3

14-03-2016, 20:00

I must chime in briefly: as the lead mentor for 2502 I must address the message and tone of one of our alumni:

Jon, (and everyone else) Team 2502 absolutely values the MSHSL State tournament and I understand 100% why the system is set up the way it is. Some teams can't afford to attend 2 events... It's completely unfair to give those teams with larger budgets an advantage. I believe that districts would help this problem and make teams better. But I can tell you we were upset when we were "on the bubble" last year and didn't make it to State.

novamx3

14-03-2016, 20:06

Also, you are 100% right about the qualification matches... We were lucky that 2883 valued our shooter's accuracy and they did their scouting. We should have adjusted our play in the qualification matches and our drive team is well aware. There is nothing wrong with this game, it was our team's strategy in qualification matches that was lacking.

FRCTeam3293

14-03-2016, 20:57

Jon, (and everyone else) Team 2502 absolutely values the MSHSL State tournament and I understand 100% why the system is set up the way it is. Some teams can't afford to attend 2 events... It's completely unfair to give those teams with larger budgets an advantage. I believe that districts would help this problem and make teams better. But I can tell you we were upset when we were "on the bubble" last year and didn't make it to State.

Totally agree. The OtterBots have set the MSHSL States as our goal every year since inception. Very meaningful to us. Looks like we will be on the wrong side of the bubble this year, and disappointed, which speaks to the value of the event to us.

nfhammes

14-03-2016, 21:34

I'm not sure how I feel about CA winners automatically qualifying... I like that we're rewarding the teams that win the most prestigious award in FIRST, but it doesn't necessarily bring the best teams to the competition. Although if your team is winning CA, you probably have a competitive team anyways, at least that's what I gather by checking out past winners.

I definitely know how I feel about a teams second event not counting. If the goal of the state championship is to have all the best teams in the state competing to figure out the best of the best then you have to count a second regional. You can do an average of the results of the first and second regionals to maintain some parity, but the teams that go to 2 events will get better at their second event.

If the goal of the state championship is anything other than figuring out the best of the best... then don't call it a state championship.

I think there's a little nuance you're not bringing out here. If the goal is to have the best teams, teams who win RCA at their first event seems like an excellent way to ensure you get some of them. If the goal is to get the best robots, it obviously misses the mark, but that particular goal seems to do less to inspire kids and be what FIRST is about, that I would ignore it. (Admittedly, I wasn't there last year but...) I would love to see the MSHSL State Championship hand out awards to teams. Maybe they would be similar/the same/analogous to the normal FIRST set, or whittled down to a few important ones due to judging constraints, but I think that would go further in "figuring out the best of the best" in the right ways.

The problem with counting second events or not is fairness. If teams simply got credit for the better of the two events, (or even both events!) that would be obviously unfair in favor of teams with more resources. Averaging the two dampens the effect, and certainly allows a second event to harm teams, but many teams do tend to do better at later events, both through iteration, and sheer student experience, so you're still advantaging teams with more resources. Picking the first event seems to be the closest to rewarding "competitive" teams, while giving all teams a fair opportunity.

And on the topic of you "speaking for all teams" when saying that winning state is a big deal, it obviously isn't all of them, but the last time I was in MN, there were a good number of teams who see Winning State as a big deal, whose relationships with their districts and schools would be improved by winning an MSHSL banner, and would be further legitimized in their community. And I'm not sure those folks are well-represented on CD. I think it's not universal, but should be taken seriously. And MNFIRST knows this, and maintains a positive relationship with the good folks at the MSHSL.

Alex2614

14-03-2016, 22:40

I won't get into other things with this post, but this annoyed me especially. As far as I know, his worry rests more with the fact that he would probably have to do 6 straight weekends of competition in a row, not to mention Worlds. Minnesota already has 4 large regionals, 5 if you were to count Iowa, and Minnesota would probably need 12 districts to accommodate all the teams here. To my knowledge, there are two scorekeepers and two or three FTAs in Minnesota FIRST. I don't know for sure, but I believe that there are only two or three Head Refs in Minnesota. (Don't quote me on that last one.) I know that Daredad has already done Northern Lights and will be scorekeeping at one of the Twin cities regionals, in addition to Iowa. I assume the FTAs and other Scorekeepers are equally busy. Would you want them to have that much more work for 10 more minutes of match time per event?

So how exactly do you recruit more FTAs into the region if there are only three FTA "spots?" If the regionals don't advertise that they need FTAs, because all their FTA spots are filled, how is anyone supposed to learn how to do the job or even know that it is needed?

The same thing goes with any other key volunteer position. I hear this argument all the time: "My region can't go into districts because we don't have enough key volunteers." But how are you supposed to get those key volunteers if there is nowhere for volunteers to go? In other words, you really have to just bite the bullet and go into districts in order to get those key volunteers. You won't get enough volunteers for 16 district events if you only have three regionals to put your volunteers in. I think you'd be surprised how many volunteers will show up if the spots are open.

Jon Stratis

14-03-2016, 23:53

So how exactly do you recruit more FTAs into the region if there are only three FTA "spots?" If the regionals don't advertise that they need FTAs, because all their FTA spots are filled, how is anyone supposed to learn how to do the job or even know that it is needed?

The same thing goes with any other key volunteer position. I hear this argument all the time: "My region can't go into districts because we don't have enough key volunteers." But how are you supposed to get those key volunteers if there is nowhere for volunteers to go? In other words, you really have to just bite the bullet and go into districts in order to get those key volunteers. You won't get enough volunteers for 16 district events if you only have three regionals to put your volunteers in. I think you'd be surprised how many volunteers will show up if the spots are open.

FTA's have FTAA's. LRI's have inspectors. Head Refs have refs. The list goes on, but the point is that every key position has others they work directly with - that's where those volunteers go. If you look at FIRST's list of volunteer positions (http://www.firstinspires.org/sites/default/files/uploads/resource_library/volunteer/frc-technical-and-key-event-volunteer-roles.pdf), you can probably figure it out - most of the positions even tell you the exact experience needed - for example, LRI's require two years of prior experience as inspectors. Head Ref's need to ref for two years. It's spots like that where the whole "if you build it, they will come" thing falls apart - it doesn't matter if we have 200 volunteers show up for every event - if we don't have experienced Ref's, we won't have a Head Ref to run it. That's the issue when people say "we don't have enough key volunteers" - they mean we don't have enough when considering those we currently have and those ready to step up when there's room for more key's.

If anyone is interested in a key position, whether it appears "full" or not, your best bet is to approach someone in that key role or the VC (whom you should know, as you're already volunteering!) and tell them that you're interested. Ask them what you can do to work towards the position and who you should be talking to. I know it hasn't always worked out that way for LRI's in MN (all of the current LRI's, including myself, were asked to step up to fill the need, but one of the ones in training came to us and told us he wants that position when he's ready), but ideally that's how it would work. Then we would have a list of interested people to keep an eye on, and call up when needed. The problem is, we just don't have that many people banging down our doors for these positions!

Caleb Sykes

15-03-2016, 00:05

Alex2614

15-03-2016, 00:18

FTA's have FTAA's. LRI's have inspectors. Head Refs have refs. The list goes on, but the point is that every key position has others they work directly with - that's where those volunteers go. If you look at FIRST's list of volunteer positions (http://www.firstinspires.org/sites/default/files/uploads/resource_library/volunteer/frc-technical-and-key-event-volunteer-roles.pdf), you can probably figure it out - most of the positions even tell you the exact experience needed - for example, LRI's require two years of prior experience as inspectors. Head Ref's need to ref for two years. It's spots like that where the whole "if you build it, they will come" thing falls apart - it doesn't matter if we have 200 volunteers show up for every event - if we don't have experienced Ref's, we won't have a Head Ref to run it. That's the issue when people say "we don't have enough key volunteers" - they mean we don't have enough when considering those we currently have and those ready to step up when there's room for more key's.

If anyone is interested in a key position, whether it appears "full" or not, your best bet is to approach someone in that key role or the VC (whom you should know, as you're already volunteering!) and tell them that you're interested. Ask them what you can do to work towards the position and who you should be talking to. I know it hasn't always worked out that way for LRI's in MN (all of the current LRI's, including myself, were asked to step up to fill the need, but one of the ones in training came to us and told us he wants that position when he's ready), but ideally that's how it would work. Then we would have a list of interested people to keep an eye on, and call up when needed. The problem is, we just don't have that many people banging down our doors for these positions!

And to what extent are those positions advertised in MN? Or in other areas for that matter? Has MN taken a proactive stance and put out a plea for these kinds of volunteers and say "if we want to move forward with the district system, we need trainees in these positions, so please volunteer?" In my experience, if you expect people to volunteer on their own to fill the voids, you won't get much. But if you ask them to volunteer and tell them why they are needed, you may get different results. People may not know that these kinds of volunteers are needed or why they are needed, even if it is up on FIRST's website for everyone to see. My hypothesis is that there are a number of people who would put in the time for one of these key positions if they knew how badly they were needed to move forward with districts, or even what the volunteers do. I'm sure we have many parents/mentors on our team who are clueless about where their abilities could be useful as an event volunteer. My other hypothesis is that there would be a number of potential volunteers that would be more likely to do so if the event was closer to them and they didn't have to miss work to do so (like a district event would be).

Again, I'm not from MN so this is just my educated guessing.

Ginger Power

15-03-2016, 01:01

I think there's a little nuance you're not bringing out here. If the goal is to have the best teams, teams who win RCA at their first event seems like an excellent way to ensure you get some of them. If the goal is to get the best robots, it obviously misses the mark, but that particular goal seems to do less to inspire kids and be what FIRST is about, that I would ignore it. (Admittedly, I wasn't there last year but...) I would love to see the MSHSL State Championship hand out awards to teams. Maybe they would be similar/the same/analogous to the normal FIRST set, or whittled down to a few important ones due to judging constraints, but I think that would go further in "figuring out the best of the best" in the right ways.

The problem with counting second events or not is fairness. If teams simply got credit for the better of the two events, (or even both events!) that would be obviously unfair in favor of teams with more resources. Averaging the two dampens the effect, and certainly allows a second event to harm teams, but many teams do tend to do better at later events, both through iteration, and sheer student experience, so you're still advantaging teams with more resources. Picking the first event seems to be the closest to rewarding "competitive" teams, while giving all teams a fair opportunity.

And on the topic of you "speaking for all teams" when saying that winning state is a big deal, it obviously isn't all of them, but the last time I was in MN, there were a good number of teams who see Winning State as a big deal, whose relationships with their districts and schools would be improved by winning an MSHSL banner, and would be further legitimized in their community. And I'm not sure those folks are well-represented on CD. I think it's not universal, but should be taken seriously. And MNFIRST knows this, and maintains a positive relationship with the good folks at the MSHSL.

In my post, I meant "best teams" as in the best teams on the field, aka best robots. Should've made this more clear.

I'm not sure why getting the best robots to the State Championship would inspire fewer kids. You're just inspiring a different group of students. Having the most competitive competition would inspire more students in my opinion by showing them the game being played at a high level.

With the current state qualification system, great teams (sometimes the best teams) miss out on qualifying for a competition that is supposed to (in my mind) determine the best robots. I won't pretend to know the solution to this issue, but I know taking a second event into consideration in some way would help.

I don't think "fairness" should be a factor, because I don't believe it's unfair to consider two events. Teams that attend two events worked hard to raise funds to do that second event. They put in the effort, they should be rewarded for doing so. The teams doing two events are iterating, and improving their robots in between events. When they show up at a 2nd event with a fantastic robot, they should be rewarded for that extra work that they've put in. If anything, it's more fair to consider a 2nd event.

I really like the concept if doing awards at the State Championship. Brilliant idea.

The question we really have to answer is: What is the purpose of the state championship? Is it to determine the best robots? The best teams? Is it to showcase FIRST in yet another off-season event? If we want to think of FRC as a sport, I think the purpose of the state championship should be to determine the best robots (athletes) in Minnesota.

Also, I wasn't the one who was "speaking for all teams", although we do share the same logo. Chief Hedgehog has taken back his comments, because nobody can speak for everybody.

Bryan Herbst

15-03-2016, 09:36

In my experience, if you expect people to volunteer on their own to fill the voids, you won't get much. But if you ask them to volunteer and tell them why they are needed, you may get different results. People may not know that these kinds of volunteers are needed or why they are needed, even if it is up on FIRST's website for everyone to see. My hypothesis is that there are a number of people who would put in the time for one of these key positions if they knew how badly they were needed to move forward with districts, or even what the volunteers do. I'm sure we have many parents/mentors on our team who are clueless about where their abilities could be useful as an event volunteer.

Our regional director sent out an email yesterday to all team contacts requesting the following:

10,000 Lakes
Field Reset (7)
Flag assistants (2)
Safety Advisor (1)
Safety Glasses: Friday and Saturday
Spare Parts Desk (2)

North Star:
Welcome Table/Event Concierge (2)
Team Queuing (1)
Saturday - Safety Glasses attendants
Practice Field (1)

Volunteering for one of these positions is the first step towards many other positions.

Additionally, he sent out the following to all team contacts in December:
Technical Volunteers Wanted!

Volunteering is a blast at Minnesota FIRST Regional Competitions. Positions that require pre-event training are filling now, including Scorekeeper, Control System Advisor and Robot Inspector, for all four events. Events require a minimum of 10 robot inspectors, 2 CSAs, and 2 Scorekeepers. Sign up today via FIRST and the VIMS: https://my.firstinspires.org/FIRSTPortal/Login/VIMS_Login.aspx. Questions can be sent to Laurie Shimizu, FIRST Senior Mentor & Volunteer Coordinator, at lshimizu@firstinspires.org.

No one is trying to keep volunteering a secret.

jessss

15-03-2016, 10:48

With the current state qualification system, great teams (sometimes the best teams) miss out on qualifying for a competition that is supposed to (in my mind) determine the best robots. I won't pretend to know the solution to this issue, but I know taking a second event into consideration in some way would help.

The question we really have to answer is: What is the purpose of the state championship? Is it to determine the best robots? The best teams? Is it to showcase FIRST in yet another off-season event? If we want to think of FRC as a sport, I think the purpose of the state championship should be to determine the best robots (athletes) in Minnesota.

I think one reason the MSHSL tournament misses out on some of the best teams each year is because of the chairman's system we have set in place. If like you said we want to be a competitive tournament then we should not give 10 points towards every team that submits chairman's or even give teams that win chairman's at the regional level a spot to the tournament. Honestly I have my team submit chairman's every year even if we do very little outreach because we know we will get those points towards the state tournament.

I think the goals for the state tournament was that it is meant to showcase FIRST in Minnesota and usually when you have media personnel at events like these, you have them talk to kids who can inspire others through communicating with the news or a journalist. It normally makes for a better story if they are talking with students that can coherently convey the message of FIRST and do stuff for there community. I'm not in anyway saying that other teams cannot do this but usually you'll find that teams that produce chairman's submissions or have a strong speakers know how to make FIRST look good.

I think Minnesota needs to figure out their goals before going forward and changing their qualification system. If we want higher caliber teams at the state championship level then maybe implement something like you said, average of all the regionals a team attends. But if our goal is to inspire more like a showcase system and less like a competition it might be better to keep with the same system, from my experience a team are more likely to change their ways (from one regional to multiple) if they are invited to events like the MSHSL's competition or champs. If the state competition instead limits that opportunity for teams that for some reason do not currently go to more than one event there might be less of an attempt to try to get better.

nuclearnerd

15-03-2016, 12:21

I'm a bit late to this topic, but I have a left-field idea that keeps growing on me.

Would a 6 play regional, with 6+ minute long matches be so bad?

The pros are that the matches could be far more interesting and dramatic, with time to run more complex strategies (and to fail and adapt). They would also be more spectator friendly too, with gameplay to reset time ratio increased from worse than 1:1 to better than 2:1. The overall play time per team will not go down, in fact it will go up since less time per regional is spent doing field reset.

The con is that it is much less likely that the robots will seed in order of how "good" they are. Playoff alliances will be influenced strongly on luck and schedule strength, and what I see in this thread is that people consider this "unfair". Also we'd need batteries that can hold more charge, but that is trivial imho.

I would argue that unlikely playoffs are not a con at all! If we are so concerned that the "best" robots win, and we all seem to know what makes a good robot, lets just have them run a demo in front of a judge panel like show dogs. On the other hand, if we want robotics to be a sport, with all of the drama and excitement that entails, we need to open the space for underdog teams to catch a lucky first-seed pick and ride it to champs. Imagine an exciting, 6 minute finals match between two rookie teams with power-house teams as their first picks!

So, have I made my case? Who else is on team 6 minute matches? :)

Mr V

15-03-2016, 12:35

So, have I made my case? Who else is on team 6 minute matches? :)

I know who isn't up for 6 minute matches, the batteries, at least with the amount of motors used on many robots, especially those teams with 6 CIM drives.

nuclearnerd

15-03-2016, 13:25

I know who isn't up for 6 minute matches, the batteries, at least with the amount of motors used on many robots, especially those teams with 6 CIM drives.

Understood, I mentioned that. But that's an easy easy fix. We could switch to bigger SLA batteries, or NIMH batteries of the same weight but larger capacity (though I'm having trouble finding a source right now, which is telling).

jvriezen

15-03-2016, 14:04

This. I couldn't volunteer this year because my team is competing at Iowa and Minneapolis, and I had a test on the Thursday of the Duluth events. If there were more events, particularly if those events were relatively local and I didn't have to miss much/any school, I would gladly volunteer at a couple of events.

I doubt that I am alone in this regard.

While team dynamics and needs will vary, I have volunteered during the events that my team participated in pretty much every year since 2009. If you have enough mentors attending the regional, some of them can volunteer. Volunteering at the event is a great way to model for your students the importance of volunteering to give back.

Also, you don't have to volunteer for the entire weekend, you can volunteer for only the days where you are available, although this may limit the positions you are eligible or selected for.

Ginger Power

15-03-2016, 14:09

Also, you don't have to volunteer for the entire weekend, you can volunteer for only the days where you are available, although this may limit the positions you are eligible or selected for.

Robot Inspector in particular, which Caleb has done before, is primarily needed on Thursday. I know both events in Minneapolis are at the minimum of 10 robot Inspectors at last check.

nighterfighter

15-03-2016, 14:47

Would a 6 play regional, with 6+ minute long matches be so bad?

Yes.

If your robot fails to connect to the FMS, or something breaks on your robot, radio becomes unplugged or something, you lose a lot more playtime.

Mr V

15-03-2016, 14:53

Robot Inspector in particular, which Caleb has done before, is primarily needed on Thursday. I know both events in Minneapolis are at the minimum of 10 robot Inspectors at last check.

Yes the need for inspectors is greatest on Thur for Regionals or load in night for District events. So it is certainly possible and highly desired to have people who are interested in doing Robot inspection on that day and then have the rest of the time free or do another job.

For example one of the RIs for my event this weekend will be queing after Thur night inspections, I've also had people who inspect load in and are then refs the other days.

Caleb Sykes

15-03-2016, 15:02

While team dynamics and needs will vary, I have volunteered during the events that my team participated in pretty much every year since 2009. If you have enough mentors attending the regional, some of them can volunteer. Volunteering at the event is a great way to model for your students the importance of volunteering to give back.

Also, you don't have to volunteer for the entire weekend, you can volunteer for only the days where you are available, although this may limit the positions you are eligible or selected for.

One of our mentors will be volunteering at Iowa and 10K, and I would volunteer at our competitions as well if I thought that was the best usage of my time.

I understand that there are opportunities for me to volunteer in the regional system, but there are clearly vastly more readily available opportunities in the district system.

cadandcookies

16-03-2016, 01:22

One of our mentors will be volunteering at Iowa and 10K, and I would volunteer at our competitions as well if I thought that was the best usage of my time.

I understand that there are opportunities for me to volunteer in the regional system, but there are clearly vastly more readily available opportunities in the district system.

I completely sympathize with this post. There's a really interesting amount of calculation that goes into whether it's "worth" volunteering at an event-- part of that comes down to what you're doing (for example, I feel like I'm making much more of an impact as a CSA/FTA/emcee when I do FTC events than I do doing field reset at FRC, which makes me far more excited/willing to volunteer over working with my FTC team), how much the team needs you (at North Star, I'll be the mentor for 2667 that has the most FRC experience at the event, which is terrifying, especially for nearly a 10 year old team), and of course work/schedule conflicts.

Truthfully, I'd much rather be in a position to volunteer at North Star (and any event) than not, even if it means I'm just sitting at the safety glasses table. But there's definitely a hard call that needs to be made between that idealism and the reality that I'm probably helping more by making sure my team is running smoothly. I think that a lot of teams have mentors who have to make that call and, rightfully, pick their teams. This comes back to the main point of this thread-- by my count (which might be slightly off-- I did this manually) 166 MN teams are going to one regional event. The majority will not make elims, or qualify for Champs, or qualify for State. Those teams get EIGHT matches. So yeah, when it comes down to it, evaluating cost/benefit for taking one of the incredibly appealing roles Bryan posted as being open as a mentor, it's an obvious choice if you're not from a large team. For a lot of people helping their team and volunteering are mutually exclusive, and this is exacerbated by having double regionals (which shouldn't be misconstrued-- I love our events, it just makes volunteering at more than one other event difficult).

That situation changes when a team can attend more events, events within a reasonable distance are more common, events require less of a time commitment, or a team gets large/good enough that it can afford to lose a couple of mentors for a weekend (yes, this is probably an oversimplification, but I think it covers the main things).

Al Skierkiewicz

21-03-2016, 07:57

Sorry I haven't posted much here, out of the country at the Australian event. There seems to be a lot of conjecture on what actually takes place at an event and how volunteers are recruited and trained. If you really want to know ask. We have done a lot of training to get inspectors in Minnesota, and other positions as well, up to speed. Yes, the robot inspections on Thursday take a lot of effort, but that is not the only need. Events run better when inspection staff assist teams with robot problems and redesign throughout the weekend at any event. I want our inspectors to insure that all teams play every match to give the remaining teams a full alliance every time. That is a lot to ask but that is why we look for inspectors to be team members who actively have worked on a robot prior to volunteering. I want experienced people. Having worked in Minnesota since the beginning, I can tell you that there are some really great and knowledgeable people who work those events. Great refs, CSAs, FTAs and inspectors. It is actually pleasant to work in MN events as everyone is professional and very nice.
That being said, almost every event (not only MN) will have inspectors go to other roles, most often reffing and judging. CSAs and other volunteers will stick with their roles throughout the event but game dependent roles like field reset can have significant demands. Building a field can take most of a day or longer depending on the field and the venue. This year can take easily 20 people to unpack and setup and a similar number for teardown. Then there is the pit setup and teardown, volunteer check in, judges and a lot of other positions.
Six minute matches? I think you need to take a hard look at the last two year's games and you will soon realize that two minutes is an awful long time for the game and robots. Many teams do not design efficient mechanisms and will often run a battery down in just two minutes.

mrnoble

21-03-2016, 08:25

The worst thing about a six minute match would be the pain and humiliation of having your team's non-functioning robot on the field for that length of time. The second worst thing would would be the audience boredom that would come as we had to sit through six minutes of non-functional robots on the field. So, no thanks.

Ilovepineapples

23-03-2016, 14:18

I highly doubt MN will go to districts, the leadership of the state doesn't seem to like the idea. My guess is that they'll continue to add regionals in the larger areas out-state, such as Rochester, St. Cloud, La Crosse/La Crescent, Fargo and Thief River Falls. Followed by MN teams and sponsors complaining about the cost per regional match vs. district match. That will force them to try to reduce costs for teams, which could be done the following ways;

Finding additional sponsor money so all teams can afford a second regional. This is doubtful, as there are only so many large companies in Minnesota.
Negotiating a reduction in cost for teams attending a regional, to align more with districts. This would be complex, as it would have to go through FIRST and it would affect all areas with regionals. My assumption is that FIRST wants all areas to move to districts and Israel/Austraila would have issues with this as they are single regional countries, making transportation to a second regional uneconomical.
Moving to districts. From the posts on ChiefDelphi, this seems highly unlikely.

Overall, it seems that things will continue how they have been in Minnesota with an increase in the overall number of regionals. Perhaps with more regionals, team counts at the event will go down and this will allow for more matches. Only time will tell.

dag0620

23-03-2016, 14:24

Here is one thing to realize. Local leadership fighting districts will certainly delay the switch, but if HQ wishes for it to happen, sooner or later it will.

bachster

23-03-2016, 15:04

If I felt there was a need beyond working the safety glasses (which I have my students do) I'd have volunteered years ago.

I am way behind on this thread, but - Ian, I would love to have you join us as an inspector at 10,000 Lakes! We can always use more inspectors. Inspecting is something that would be tough for just anyone (parents, etc.) to jump into without FRC experience, so it's a great role for technical mentors and alumni. I am not sure what timing constraints there are regarding getting the background check and inspector test completed in VIMS, but I would hope there's still time. Feel free to PM or email me!

Edited to add: CSA is another position which really requires some specialized skills and experience. It would be great to continue to build a base of strong volunteers in this role. Mentors and alumni are perfect candidates.

Katie

Alan Anderson

23-03-2016, 16:19

I'm not sure why getting the best robots to the State Championship would inspire fewer kids. You're just inspiring a different group of students. Having the most competitive competition would inspire more students in my opinion by showing them the game being played at a high level.

It would excite the students, certainly. But what exactly are you wanting to inspire them to do? A high-level robot competition can inspire people to build high-level robots, but high-level robots aren't the goal of my participation in the FRC program. I want to inspire students to become (or at least to appreciate) engineers and scientists and advocates for technology. That kind of inspiration is what the Chairman's Award celebrates.

Ginger Power

23-03-2016, 17:12

It would excite the students, certainly. But what exactly are you wanting to inspire them to do? A high-level robot competition can inspire people to build high-level robots, but high-level robots aren't the goal of my participation in the FRC program. I want to inspire students to become (or at least to appreciate) engineers and scientists and advocates for technology. That kind of inspiration is what the Chairman's Award celebrates.
There is no Chairman's Award given out at the Minnesota State Championship. The goal of the State Championship isn't necessarily to inspire students to go into STEM fields after high school, that's the goal of FIRST as a whole. The purpose of the State Championship is to determine the best teams in the state, just like purpose of IRI is to figure out the best teams in the world (more or less).

Either change the name of the Minnesota State Championship to "Minnesota Robotics Exhibition", or change the qualification process. You can't have a state championship without the best teams in the state.

bachster

23-03-2016, 17:28

[snip] People may not know that these kinds of volunteers are needed or why they are needed, even if it is up on FIRST's website for everyone to see. My hypothesis is that there are a number of people who would put in the time for one of these key positions if they knew how badly they were needed to move forward with districts, or even what the volunteers do. I'm sure we have many parents/mentors on our team who are clueless about where their abilities could be useful as an event volunteer. [snip]

I think this is definitely a good point, and I'll add my perspective based on my experience. The first 3-4 years I was a mentor, there were a total of 3 adults who attended events with our team. My capacity was fully consumed by making sure the team got to the event and put a robot on the field each match. To be honest, I didn't give much thought to how the event was run or where volunteers came from. If we had been required to provide volunteers I'm not sure what we would have done, and it certainly would have added to my already high stress level. It was only several years later, when we had developed stronger parent support and added several more mentors, that when I saw an email stating "we're looking for technical mentors to be robot inspectors" I thought "you know what, I think I could do that." I'm not sure how long it would have taken me to identify this need on my own - probably several more years.

After becoming more aware of the need for volunteers, our team has made concerted efforts to recruit students, parents, mentors, and alumni as event volunteers, and I'm proud to say that it's become part of our team culture. But, we are now a large team with a strong base of mentors, parents, and alumni to draw from. There are many, many teams in Minnesota that are still in the position I was for my first few years - one or two mentors just trying to stay afloat. This is hard, hard work and I commend them for their efforts.

I guess my point is this: for the teams that have the resources to provide volunteers, awareness is important, and it's not automatic. If you're reading this thread and want to help, this is a great place to start. Spread the word! The more teams who are actively involved in providing volunteers in various roles, the better position we'll be in to take that involvement to the next level required by districts. More geographic diversity in our volunteer base is also important if we want to be able to support districts all over the state.

EricLeifermann

08-04-2016, 08:48

Teams should get a partial refund for every event that they attend that has less than 10 matches.

Andrew Schreiber

08-04-2016, 14:18

Teams should get a partial refund for every event that they attend that has less than 10 matches.

Regionals should be required to post a "minimum matches played" so teams can shop around for events where they get the requisite bang for their buck. Failure to meet that number results in a refund to the teams. [1]

[1] Scheduled matches. Crap happens sometimes see AR this year. That shouldn't count.

waialua359

08-04-2016, 16:00

Teams should get a partial refund for every event that they attend that has less than 10 matches.

I agree.
We got a lot of scrutiny back when Champs were back in Atlanta. 7 matches for $5000 registration fee.

EricLeifermann

08-04-2016, 16:17

I agree.
We got a lot of scrutiny back when Champs were back in Atlanta. 7 matches for $5000 registration fee.

Wev'e got 8 at North Star this week. I think part of it is there is a 5K tomorrow so the day is starting an hour later than usual. But at the same time the organizers knew about the 5k well in advance, schedule Friday an hour later than usual to make up for it.

techtiger1

08-04-2016, 16:41

No, they are not reasonable, unacceptable.

Bryan Herbst

08-04-2016, 19:37

Wev'e got 8 at North Star this week. I think part of it is there is a 5K tomorrow so the day is starting an hour later than usual. But at the same time the organizers knew about the 5k well in advance, schedule Friday an hour later than usual to make up for it.

Friday is indeed scheduled for about an hour later. The public agenda has matches ending at 6:30 tonight vs 5:30 to 5:45 for a "typical" event.

BetaHelix

08-04-2016, 19:58

I fully support Midwest districts, but I foresee a problem for my team, as we kind fit between large areas. We are one of only 11 IA teams (+1 Nebraska team) surrounded by 208 MN teams, 57 IL teams, and 50+ MO teams, means we my need two districts. I think there should be two districts, an Upper Midwest district (MN, ND, SD), and a lower Midwest district (IA, MO, IL, NE).

Jon Stratis

08-04-2016, 21:06

Regionals should be required to post a "minimum matches played" so teams can shop around for events where they get the requisite bang for their buck. Failure to meet that number results in a refund to the teams. [1]

[1] Scheduled matches. Crap happens sometimes see AR this year. That shouldn't count.

How can a regional determine the number of matches they'll play when they don't know the game or the time required for field reset? As an example, North Star has 8 matches this year, 10 in 2015 and 2014, 8 in 2013, 9 in 2012 and 2011... It's all highly dependent on the game and what has to happen between the matches.

Christopher149

08-04-2016, 21:10

waialua359

08-04-2016, 22:11

How can a regional determine the number of matches they'll play when they don't know the game or the time required for field reset? As an example, North Star has 8 matches this year, 10 in 2015 and 2014, 8 in 2013, 9 in 2012 and 2011... It's all highly dependent on the game and what has to happen between the matches.
Simple solution.
Run the event until you play required number of matches per event i.e. Friday and/or Saturday.
And before anyone mentions about volunteer limitations and scheduling, then I say follow the suggestions above and adjust price accordingly.

This can become a very sensitive subject whenever price is involved, especially when other programs pay less AND play less vs. others.
We played a sanctioned regional last year in a high school gym for $5000.00 with no practice field in the building.

BrendanB

08-04-2016, 22:24

Jon Stratis

08-04-2016, 23:18

Throwing more people at it is not a solution, asking everyone present to put in more hours also isn't a really viable solution either - to go from 8 to 12 qualification matches would require an additional 5.5 hours of matches (given the public schedule (http://www.firstinspires.org/sites/default/files/uploads/frc/2016-events/2016_MNMI2_Agenda.pdf) for North Star, which has 11 hours for quals listed, if I counted right). You can't just squeeze that in to what already amounts to 12+ hour days for the volunteers, and there's no way adding additional people could save you that much time.

EricH

08-04-2016, 23:26

Jon is right. The biggest difference between an 8-play event like MN and L.A. run and a 12-play event in the district systems is NOT number of people.

Well... it is. Just not the people you were asking about.

How is it that Los Angeles runs a 8-play event, San Diego runs something like 8-9 plays, but Ventura and O.C. run 12-play events with the same teams in the area and similar staffs? Simple, really. L.A. and S.D. are 66 and 56 teams, respectively (or give-or-take that many), while the other two are 40-42 team events. 10-20 fewer teams results in more plays per team in the same time.

So, the best way to get more plays is to convince all the other teams in your area to NOT go to your event, because then you get more plays. The problem then becomes that they've got no events to go to, so they try to convince you to do the same thing... Or you could just push for more small events (or just plain more events, period, which would probably be better in the long haul).

Knufire

08-04-2016, 23:32

Or you could just push for more small events (or just plain more events, period, which would probably be better in the long haul).

Sounds a lot like districts.

PayneTrain

08-04-2016, 23:42

Sounds a lot like districts.

Yeah, no disrespect to the people of FIRST California, but I wonder if they could point out the differences between the Orange County Regional and literally almost any random district event. There is one obvious difference (price tag) that can't be used as an answer.

Outside of the price tag... not a bad thing either

AdamHeard

08-04-2016, 23:45

Yeah, no disrespect to the people of FIRST California, but I wonder if they could point out the differences between the Orange County Regional and literally almost any random district event. There is one obvious difference (price tag) that can't be used as an answer.

Outside of the price tag... not a bad thing either

4 of 7 California events are essentially districts.

Andrew Schreiber

09-04-2016, 06:38

How can a regional determine the number of matches they'll play when they don't know the game or the time required for field reset? As an example, North Star has 8 matches this year, 10 in 2015 and 2014, 8 in 2013, 9 in 2012 and 2011... It's all highly dependent on the game and what has to happen between the matches.

Then only commit to 8. At least teams know what they are getting when they come to your event. But if UMD can run 12 matches for 40 teams in a single day I don't have a ton of understanding why your guys can't run more than 8 matches. Work volunteers in shifts to lighten the load.

Mr V

09-04-2016, 10:17

LFrisk

09-04-2016, 11:24

Well, district events (at least MI) play 12 matches regardless of turnaround time or field faults.

Fairly certain that's because there are less teams in district events.

EricH

09-04-2016, 12:20

But if UMD can run 12 matches for 40 teams in a single day I don't have a ton of understanding why your guys can't run more than 8 matches. Work volunteers in shifts to lighten the load.
Andrew, the part you're not getting is that this is a 60-team event, PER EVENT, for 120 teams total (on two fields). And if it wasn't that many, there'd be a bunch of annoyed MN teams.

Understand this: the key part to getting more matches is smaller events. I'd suspect that some folks might consider a 50-team event optimal (10 matches/team, and time to fix issues), but 40 gives more plays. If you want more matches, the easy way to do that is to go to a smaller regional, or a district system.

Lil' Lavery

09-04-2016, 12:23

If you really want to increase the number of matches teams play, the solution isn't districts or cycle times or longer hours. The solution it to put more teams on the field at once.

In the 2v2 alliance era, 6-8 play regionals were the standard. Yes, your $5000 could buy you as few as 6 matches. When 3v3 was introduced in 2005, we instantly saw plays per event increase.

Doug Frisk

09-04-2016, 14:18

Then only commit to 8. At least teams know what they are getting when they come to your event. But if UMD can run 12 matches for 40 teams in a single day I don't have a ton of understanding why your guys can't run more than 8 matches. Work volunteers in shifts to lighten the load.

Multiply 40 teams times 12 matches, then multiply 60 teams by 8 matches.

Understand now?

plnyyanks

09-04-2016, 20:46

When we generate qual schedules, there are three input parameters to the "algorithm": number of teams, matches per team, and cycle time. Additionally, the event needs to fit within the public agenda posted.

As an example, the Regional Planning Guide, section 2 (http://www.firstinspires.org/sites/default/files/uploads/resource_library/frc/rpg/rpg-section-02-securing-the-site.pdf) suggests the following agenda (districts are different, but they get 12 matches/team anyway):

The guide suggests 9:30 - 4:30 (less 1 hours for lunch) and 9:30 - 12:00 over two days. That's a total of 9 hours for qual matches. If we use 6 minute cycle times (which is about as fast as it will ever be, this year the goal was 7 minutes), that's 10 matches per hour, for 90 matches (540 plays) total.

So for an event with 40 teams, you can do floor(540/40) = 13 matches per team. A 65 team event can do floor(540/65) = 8 matches per team.

So if you want to increase matches per team, you'll have to do one of the following:

Reduce the number of teams attending each event
Reduce the match cycle time
Increase the time spent playing matches

PayneTrain

09-04-2016, 23:05

cadandcookies

09-04-2016, 23:13

Minnesota could pioneer the idea of suspending a field 20 feet above the other field and have true double decker events.

Give this man a cookie. I think we've got the solution!

EricH

10-04-2016, 00:06

Minnesota could pioneer the idea of suspending a field 20 feet above the other field and have true double decker events.So they might be able to run a QUAD regional? Now there's an idea.

PayneTrain

10-04-2016, 00:38

So they might be able to run a QUAD regional? Now there's an idea.

Listen man, I'm just trying to help avoid the decimation of FRC in MN that would occur if they switch to a district system.

AlexanderTheOK

10-04-2016, 02:35

To chime in on the issue of not reaching enough potential volunteers and the advertisement of this need for volunteers, I'm one of those people that hasn't volunteered for a single event. I have friends who volunteer quite often. I personally didn't however because I simply thought that my time was needed elsewhere more than it was at the event...

Until I overheard said friends freaking out a week before my local regional, because there was no one to do x, y, and z at the event... Until I spent the entirety of the regional in the stands because the programmers had everything working nearly flawlessly and didn't actually need me to be free as a mentor.

I was, until the build season ended and events started happening this year, entirely unaware that volunteer supply was an issue. This is after 4 years, going on 5 in FIRST.

Of course now that I am aware of the problem I can be a part of the solution, for both offseason events and the next year.

The issue is however, that I feel I'm a part of a large group of oblivious people who might have the time and energy, but are simply unaware of the level of need. I'm going to be entirely honest. I don't read my email very thoroughly. There was likely an email asking for volunteers, but it got lost in the pile of emails that FIRST sends out that I frankly don't have the attention span to read.

So how do we get the oblivious shmucks like me to actually know about this?
That wasn't a rhetorical question, I seriously just don't know.

My best guess would be a more personal word of mouth approach to advertising the positions, talking to teams directly, and having the lead mentors of said teams place emphasis on this aspect of FIRST, but I suck at organizing things, so that's all this is, a guess. Maybe this is already being done, and I'm simply more oblivious than I thought. I don't know, the fact remains that people like me exist, and solving this problem could get areas closer to being able to support more small events.

Richard Wallace

10-04-2016, 02:53

... decimation of FRC in MN...Why was my first thought, "that's an anagram for medication?" ;)

Andrew Schreiber

10-04-2016, 06:09

Multiply 40 teams times 12 matches, then multiply 60 teams by 8 matches.

Understand now?

I'm fully aware of how math works. You can obviously do it too. So remind me again what your objection to posting "we only commit to 8 matches at this event" is? [1] since APPARENTLY that's a fairly easy number to compute given estimated field turn times (provided by first) and number of teams (provided by venue) I'm not seeing an issue.

As for "well 12x40 is less than 12x60" no duh. But it's not much less than 10x60, at least that's a more reasonable number of matches and you have a day and a half to get through them. Of course, I still stand by that it's a better team experience to play more matches in a smaller venue but we clearly have different views on that.

[1] other than the obvious of "it's crappy to only get 8 matches" and the fact that it'd be open and honest communication with teams.

GaryVoshol

10-04-2016, 06:54

I was, until the build season ended and events started happening this year, entirely unaware that volunteer supply was an issue.

And that's a problem with almost any organization. When my sons played soccer ages ago, we went to practices and went to games. There was a referee at the game, we expected that. Kind of like the league supplies uniforms and soccer balls, the league supplies referees.

It wasn't until talking with my sons' coach (who was also a ref) that I began to appreciate the human aspect of it. You can buy equipment (whether that be uniforms or FRC fields). You can rent venues (athletic fields or regional sites). But you can't "buy" the people. Or it would be prohibitively expensive to do so.

When my sons wanted to take the soccer referee course, I went along with them. I did it for 16 years before my knee and ankle gave out. And that led directly to me becoming a ref for FLL and FRC. (Believe me, the worst mentor arguing a call in FRC is a whole lot more GP than the average soccer coach.)

I don't want to be telling other areas what they should do regarding switching to districts. There are unique situations everywhere that will require a lot of work before areas can change to districts, if that is even what they want. Every area needs to evaluate more than just number of plays per dollar. But if number of volunteers per event is one of the things that is lacking - and we have difficulties with that in some FiM events - the only way to fix that is to ask for more volunteers. And give them reasonable pathways for getting trained to become better volunteers.

maxnz

10-04-2016, 13:23

Minnesota could pioneer the idea of suspending a field 20 feet above the other field and have true double decker events.

If the Duluth regionals do this, then it would be a double DECCer event.

Alan Anderson

10-04-2016, 15:14

I'm fully aware of how math works.

You claimed a lack of understanding for why an event can't give 12 matches to 60 teams, when another event can do it for 40. It did appear appropriate to point out the math, since you didn't seem to be taking it into account.

As for "well 12x40 is less than 12x60" no duh. But it's not much less than 10x60,...

Your definition of "much less" probably needs tweaking. 480 is much less than 600. It's 20% less. In the other direction, 600 is fully 25% more than 480.

All other things being equal, having half again as many teams means getting only two thirds as many matches per team. That's just how it works. If you play eighty matches, a 40-team event gets 12 matches per team, and a 60-team event gets 8. Period. In order to give the 60-team event 10 matches per team, you need to play one hundred matches. Twenty more matches is a lot.

Lil' Lavery

10-04-2016, 15:44

You claimed a lack of understanding for why an event can't give 12 matches to 60 teams, when another event can do it for 40. It did appear appropriate to point out the math, since you didn't seem to be taking it into account.

He claimed a lack of ignorance why other events couldn't give 9+ (more than 8) plays for 60 teams (over a full event) when another event did 12 plays for 40 teams in one day.

PayneTrain

10-04-2016, 16:02

BrendanB

10-04-2016, 17:02

I wonder if the following solution would be one the Minnesota RPC, Minnesota teams, and HQ could find tenable:

Make all regional events with a roster near or over 60 teams function like a district championship, but permit a 6 hour unbag window as well. Start qualification matches at 2 PM on Thursday and you find the hours you need to provide teams with a service similar to what smaller regionals give.

This is actually a great idea to get teams at large events more matches and with pit setups starting on Wednesday evening at regional events it is doable. Six hours on Thursday morning should be enough time to get teams inspected as long as A. they show up with less than two hours of work to do and B. there are enough inspectors on hand.

It doesn't work out to a perfect balance of time between teams in districts and teams at regionals in terms of access to your robots but even under the current system that doesn't exist. It would also help with the transition to future districts (or more regionals) because it would require the event to increase their inspection crew. Increasing just one section (or potentially doubling it) of volunteers is easier than needing several planning committees and several new key volunteers.

Its not a perfect solution but its a good option.

Ginger Power

10-04-2016, 17:12

This is actually a great idea to get teams at large events more matches and with pit setups starting on Wednesday evening at regional events it is doable. Six hours on Thursday morning should be enough time to get teams inspected as long as A. they show up with less than two hours of work to do and B. there are enough inspectors on hand.

It doesn't work out to a perfect balance of time between teams in districts and teams at regionals in terms of access to your robots but even under the current system that doesn't exist. It would also help with the transition to future districts (or more regionals) because it would require the event to increase their inspection crew. Increasing just one section (or potentially doubling it) of volunteers is easier than needing several planning committees and several new key volunteers.

Its not a perfect solution but its a good option.
For reference, 4 teams at North Star (60 team event) didn't pass inspection until Friday Morning, and 10 teams at 10K (63 team event) didn't pass inspection until Friday morning. They all had serious issues that they worked hard to fix throughout the day on Thursday. These are the same teams that a 6 hour robot access period wouldn't help. If they're oblivious enough to have a 140" frame perimeter, I seriously doubt that they will have the capability to fix that frame perimeter in their 6 hour robot access period on their own.

BrendanB

10-04-2016, 17:19

For reference, 4 teams at North Star (60 team event) didn't pass inspection until Friday Morning, and 10 teams at 10K (63 team event) didn't pass inspection until Friday morning. They all had serious issues that they worked hard to fix throughout the day on Thursday. These are the same teams that a 6 hour robot access period wouldn't help. If they're oblivious enough to have a 140" frame perimeter, I seriously doubt that they will have the capability to fix that frame perimeter in their 6 hour robot access period on their own.

Keep in mind these teams would have had the same issues if they were at districts and probably wouldn't have seen the field til later on Day 1. The first events of the years are typically the hardest and have a handful of teams who are in that same situation of working into qualifications to get inspected.

All you can do is educate teams on where they need to try to be walking in the door and give them some resources to succeed (send out the inspection sheet before bag day and encourage teams to run through it).

Ginger Power

10-04-2016, 17:44

Keep in mind these teams would have had the same issues if they were at districts and probably wouldn't have seen the field til later on Day 1. The first events of the years are typically the hardest and have a handful of teams who are in that same situation of working into qualifications to get inspected.

All you can do is educate teams on where they need to try to be walking in the door and give them some resources to succeed (send out the inspection sheet before bag day and encourage teams to run through it).

I suppose I have a different mindset. Minnesota Inspectors have the goal of getting every team inspected for their first match. Obviously this is so they can get the most out of the experience. In the district system they would have another full event that they would be ready for, even if they didn't pass inspection until near the end of quals... makes sense to me!

PayneTrain

10-04-2016, 17:48

XaulZan11

10-04-2016, 17:49

BrendanB

10-04-2016, 18:04

I suppose I have a different mindset. Minnesota Inspectors have the goal of getting every team inspected for their first match. Obviously this is so they can get the most out of the experience. In the district system they would have another full event that they would be ready for, even if they didn't pass inspection until near the end of quals... makes sense to me!

I wouldn't say its a different mindset. Our inspectors have that goal as well and I remember working hard with one team in 2014 to get them inspected by their second match (of their first event).

The scenario you are pointing to is valid however it is an extreme. If a team can't pass inspection at a district event with 6 hours of unbag time at their shop, 5 hours on load in night (Day 0 as we call it in Districts), and another 8 hours on Friday (or Day 1) that is a serious problem but it can't define a system that the other 59 teams are competing in it.

Would getting all teams inspected by 2pm on a Thursday (with 6 hours of unbag time) be a challenge. YES and you probably won't get every single team ready. Could it work as a solution to give regions that currently can't (or won't) move to districts for a long time the ability to give their teams more bang for their buck without adding more events. Yes.

Jon Stratis

10-04-2016, 18:26

The scenario you are pointing to is valid however it is an extreme. If a team can't pass inspection at a district event with 6 hours of unbag time at their shop, 5 hours on load in night (Day 0 as we call it in Districts), and another 8 hours on Friday (or Day 1) that is a serious problem but it can't define a system that the other 59 teams are competing in it.

Going into a team's first event, they don't really have the 6 hours of unbag time to pass inspection - most of the time we find inspection issues that the team is completely unaware of - you can't fix what you don't know! It's something I (personally) and concerned with, and am trying to think about ways we could address it. Trust me, I haven't heard anyone use this as an excuse - I think everyone just assumes that I'll be able to make it work for us just like we have at our regionals for years :p

Alan Anderson

10-04-2016, 18:30

He claimed a lack of ignorance why other events couldn't give 9+ (more than 8) plays for 60 teams (over a full event) when another event did 12 plays for 40 teams in one day.

I must have skipped over that part of the claim. What event did 80 matches in one day?

dradel

10-04-2016, 18:41

PayneTrain

10-04-2016, 18:43

maxnz

10-04-2016, 18:44

The part that I haven't seen anyone bring up yet is the fact that you get 2 events in the district model. So really you are getting in the area of 20-24 plays for the $5k. But then must pay more $$ to go to district champs, then more $$ if moving on to worlds

But the fact that you have more matches to fine-tune your robot before champs makes the price of the district events, DCMP and CMP (5K+4K+5K) much more worth it than paying for two regionals and CMP (5K+4K+5K).

Andrew Schreiber

10-04-2016, 18:47

I must have skipped over that part of the claim. What event did 80 matches in one day?

Umass Dartmouth, due to concerns about weather on Sunday evening of the event we condensed the entire event to be done by 2pm Sunday. This meant that qualification matches were completed by Saturday night and alliance selection was right after opening ceremonies on Sunday. So, 80 matches in one day is certainly doable. You're telling me that doing the remaining 20 matches can't be done in the morning before eliminations?

Joe Ross

10-04-2016, 18:49

Then only commit to 8. At least teams know what they are getting when they come to your event. But if UMD can run 12 matches for 40 teams in a single day I don't have a ton of understanding why your guys can't run more than 8 matches. Work volunteers in shifts to lighten the load.

Assuming that UMD means UMass Dartmouth, that event wasn't 40 teams, it was 32. They ran 64 matches on Saturday. 10000 Lakes ran 70 matches on Friday.

dradel

10-04-2016, 18:50

No one says you have to do two regionals. I mean if you win at a regional your in for champs. If you win say Chairmans at a regional you are in as well. Our first year we won rookie all star at the one regional we went to, and then went on to worlds.

dag0620

10-04-2016, 18:53

I must have skipped over that part of the claim. What event did 80 matches in one day?

Andrew was referring (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1569846&postcount=144) to the 2016 UMass District Event, where all of qualification matches were ran on Day 1 due to impending weather later Day 2.

I want to clarify however that event only had 32 teams at 64 qualification matches, not the 40 and 80 as everyone has been discussing.

On another note, while yes we did it in one day, we cut things out of the schedule, and played through meals, which isn't ideal. It was worth it to get everyone home safe, but I wouldn't make it the norm.

Andrew Schreiber

10-04-2016, 18:57

Assuming that UMD means UMass Dartmouth, that event wasn't 40 teams, it was 32. They ran 64 matches on Saturday. 10000 Lakes ran 70 matches on Friday.

You're right, I forgot that I'm not in MI where every event is full. However, the fact that 10k lakes ran 70 matches Friday almost proves my point of, we can do better than 8 matches a team.

Ok, let me put this very bluntly - 8 match events is terrible for team experience, it's a borderline offensive to see all these folks "oh we can't do any more" and that's acceptable. I'm tired of skirting around the issue - Jon, Doug, Alan, if you don't CARE that the teams are getting jack for their money fine. But at least advertise the fact that your events don't care about team experience. Or try to come up with some ideas on how to make it better for them that aren't "it's hard".

interpretTHIS

10-04-2016, 19:09

I must have skipped over that part of the claim. What event did 80 matches in one day?

The closest that I've been able to find was this 2011 event in Hartford, CT, which played 72 matches on Friday:
http://www2.usfirst.org/2011comp/events/CT/matchresults.html

However, they had one of the most capable FTAs in all of FRC; running 5 or 6 minute turns with some 4s mixed in is not typical nor can be expected across the board.

Jon Stratis

10-04-2016, 19:18

You're right, I forgot that I'm not in MI where every event is full. However, the fact that 10k lakes ran 70 matches Friday almost proves my point of, we can do better than 8 matches a team.

Ok, let me put this very bluntly - 8 match events is terrible for team experience, it's a borderline offensive to see all these folks "oh we can't do any more" and that's acceptable. I'm tired of skirting around the issue - Jon, Doug, Alan, if you don't CARE that the teams are getting jack for their money fine. But at least advertise the fact that your events don't care about team experience. Or try to come up with some ideas on how to make it better for them that aren't "it's hard".

Well, thank you for putting words in my mouth. I never said I didn't care - Here in MN we care a lot, and we do everything we can to maximize the team experience. At our volunteer training event last fall, I spent about 45 minutes talking to inspectors about what we need to do to maximize the team experience at events. So please, don't say or imply that I don't care.

We are limited in what we can do. We do everything in our power to run as many matches as we can. Our field volunteers have worked through meals more than once at events, which is certainly less than ideal. Running events longer than we already do is a non-starter - it would mean needing to pay for more meals for the volunteers, which requires more money. adding volunteers to run them in shifts runs into the same problem. We're already doing everything we can to raise the money needed for these events.

It's not a question of shying away from something that is "hard" - it's a question of what we are actually capable of doing. We're already tackling a hard problem putting these events on and everyone at the events is working flat out to make them happen. So please, check the insults at the door and come up with actual useful advice.

Andrew Schreiber

10-04-2016, 19:25

Well, thank you for putting words in my mouth. I never said I didn't care - Here in MN we care a lot, and we do everything we can to maximize the team experience. At our volunteer training event last fall, I spent about 45 minutes talking to inspectors about what we need to do to maximize the team experience at events. So please, don't say or imply that I don't care.

We are limited in what we can do. We do everything in our power to run as many matches as we can. Our field volunteers have worked through meals more than once at events, which is certainly less than ideal. Running events longer than we already do is a non-starter - it would mean needing to pay for more meals for the volunteers, which requires more money. adding volunteers to run them in shifts runs into the same problem. We're already doing everything we can to raise the money needed for these events.

It's not a question of shying away from something that is "hard" - it's a question of what we are actually capable of doing. We're already tackling a hard problem putting these events on and everyone at the events is working flat out to make them happen. So please, check the insults at the door and come up with actual useful advice.

You haven't checked your insults, at me, at some of the very volunteers you need to help, or at literally anyone who disagrees with you. I'm just a little more honest and up front about it.

Here's my question for you, and it's a simple one - Do you think 8 play regionals are a bad experience for teams?

dradel

10-04-2016, 19:32

Everyone needs to take a breath!!

Ginger Power

10-04-2016, 19:41

You haven't checked your insults, at me, at some of the very volunteers you need to help, or at literally anyone who disagrees with you. I'm just a little more honest and up front about it.

Here's my question for you, and it's a simple one - Do you think 8 play regionals are a bad experience for teams?

If you're going to pick a fight, don't do it with Jon Stratis. He is one of the most passionate and driven people I know. He's also one of the most graciously professional people I know. No more insults are necessary.

8 play regionals aren't ideal for anybody. Everybody on the RPC wants to give teams as much field time as possible. If you don't believe that, just talk to them face to face. They all want the best for teams, and they work their butts off to make that happen.

I don't believe 8 play regionals are a bad experience for teams. My team had a great time at both 8 play regionals that we went to. I've spoken with hundreds, if not thousands of people at events, and I've heard very positive feedback. Stronghold is an amazing game, and getting to watch it live is a ton of fun. I'd rather have 8 matches of Stronghold than any number of matches of Recycle Rush (except maybe zero...). So no, 8 matches is not inherently a bad experience. It isn't perfect, it could be better, but it's not bad.

Things are only going to get better in Minnesota. We are recruiting new volunteers, and are in the process of starting new events. I brought down 30 people this year, I'll have more than 50 next year. A few years down the road many of these people will be in key volunteer roles, some already are. Again, things are only getting better in Minnesota.

bkahl

10-04-2016, 19:44

We are recruiting new volunteers

Care to share their ages?

Ginger Power

10-04-2016, 19:51

Care to share their ages?

I'm 20. My volunteers range from 18-23. Most aren't old enough to drink. About half are FIRST alumni and the other half decided to volunteer through Bison Robotics' outreach program.

We all had a blast at Minneapolis and Duluth. I have tentative commitments from all but a couple to be back again next year, schedule dependent obviously. The goal is to get everybody hooked on volunteering so that when they graduate from NDSU, they decide to keep doing it because it's so much fun. Now that's how you make progress towards forming districts. I want them as badly as anybody. I just want them to be feasible and sustsinable.

EricLeifermann

10-04-2016, 19:53

If you're going to pick a fight, don't do it with Jon Stratis. He is one of the most passionate and driven people I know. He's also one of the most graciously professional people I know. No more insults are necessary.

8 play regionals aren't ideal for anybody. Everybody on the RPC wants to give teams as much field time as possible. If you don't believe that, just talk to them face to face. They all want the best for teams, and they work their butts off to make that happen.

I don't believe 8 play regionals are a bad experience for teams. My team had a great time at both 8 play regionals that we went to. I've spoken with hundreds, if not thousands of people at events, and I've heard very positive feedback. Stronghold is an amazing game, and getting to watch it live is a ton of fun. I'd rather have 8 matches of Stronghold than any number of matches of Recycle Rush (except maybe zero...). So no, 8 matches is not inherently a bad experience. It isn't perfect, it could be better, but it's not bad.

Things are only going to get better in Minnesota. We are recruiting new volunteers, and are in the process of starting new events. I brought down 30 people this year, I'll have more than 50 next year. A few years down the road many of these people will be in key volunteer roles, some already are. Again, things are only getting better in Minnesota.

I can say that both venues this weekend had key volunteers pushing for 9 matches but the people who determine how many matches vetoed it. Also for some reason it was determined that both events had to have the same number of matches. North star was running ahead of schedule and had to routinely slow their pace, we easily could have had 9 maybe even 10 matches but since 10K didnt think they could with 3 more teams North Star got shafted.

These 2 events were just that 2 DIFFERENT events and should be run that way.

Knufire

10-04-2016, 20:03

I'm 20. My volunteers range from 18-23. Most aren't old enough to drink. About half are FIRST alumni and the other half decided to volunteer through Bison Robotics' outreach program.

We all had a blast at Minneapolis and Duluth. I have tentative commitments from all but a couple to be back again next year, schedule dependent obviously. The goal is to get everybody hooked on volunteering so that when they graduate from NDSU, they decide to keep doing it because it's so much fun. Now that's how you make progress towards forming districts. I want them as badly as anybody. I just want them to be feasible and sustsinable.

This is absolutely great, and definitely a big help to MN.

Do you think that ND would be lumped together in MN if MN were to switch to districts? I'm just wondering why the solution seems to be for 30-50 college students who are located 3.5 hours away from the venue to volunteer at a regional held in a university 3x the size of NDSU. Is there just a proportionally higher amount of FIRST alumni or students willing to volunteer at NDSU compared to the University of Minnesota?

According to the lookup page on firstinspires.org, ND as a state only has 3 FRC teams. Is Bison Robotics also involved in expanding the FRC program within the state of North Dakota?

Jon Stratis

10-04-2016, 20:11

Do you think that ND would be lumped together in MN if MN were to switch to districts? I'm just wondering why the solution seems to be for 30-50 college students who are located 3.5 hours away from the venue to volunteer at a regional held in a university 3x the size of NDSU. Is there just a proportionally higher amount of FIRST alumni or students willing to volunteer at NDSU compared to the University of Minnesota?

The reason, simply put, is Ryan :) He is far and away the most passionate recent grad MN has had, and has done amazing things with Bison Robotics. He's the one who brought us all the volunteers.

wlaroche

10-04-2016, 20:24

There are two things that are never brought up in these conversations.

What about out state teams that will have to travel for both distinct events. Take say 30 students and 5-8 mentors (and don't forget about parents, they are not in these numbers), put 4 students into a room and 2 mentors into a room that leads to 11 to 12 rooms. Say you find a room rate of $80; that comes to around $1000 just for rooms. Now teams are gong to have to pay to drive maybe 5-8 hours to get to the events in maybe a school bus, multiple vehicles, coach bus (our coach bus for 5 days to champs was $4000 - $5000, you could find a cheaper price for transportation but it will not be free). Now on top of getting to the event you have to pay for meals (yes you would still be paying for food for one event (regional) but not two (districts)). Once you add all this up double it, this is what out state teams will have to pay just to get there. Now yes, you get more plays but you have to pay more (maybe $5000 with district vs $2500 for regional) with school bus to get those extra plays. What I am getting at is not everyone is going to have the opportunity to stay in there bed for two events.

The other thing I never hear about is you have 2 practice matches on Thursday, and if you get inspected early, you can be in the backup line and play more. So realistically they are not just getting 8 plays. Yes I understand 8 in qualification plays.

Ginger Power

10-04-2016, 20:28

This is absolutely great, and definitely a big help to MN.

Do you think that ND would be lumped together in MN if MN were to switch to districts? I'm just wondering why the solution seems to be for 30-50 college students who are located 3.5 hours away from the venue to volunteer at a regional held in a university 3x the size of NDSU. Is there just a proportionally higher amount of FIRST alumni or students willing to volunteer at NDSU compared to the University of Minnesota?

According to the lookup page on firstinspires.org, ND as a state only has 3 FRC teams. Is Bison Robotics also involved in expanding the FRC program within the state of North Dakota?

My goal when I decided to attend NDSU was to put North Dakota on FIRST's map. It hasn't really changed but there are interesting road blocks. So Bison Robotics has been volunteering in Minnesota because they host the closest events, and also because most NDSU students are from Minnesota (I love volunteering in MN for the record).

I don't believe there are a higher percentage of FIRST Alumni here than there are at most Universities. NDSU doesn't do anything special to target FIRST alumni outside of what Bison Robotics has started. I certainly think we do a good job of recruiting the FIRST alumni that do go here, as well as bringing new people into the FIRST community. FIRST volunteering is not difficult to recruit for in my opinion, get people to events, hang out and have fun at the end of the day, wake up early and repeat. Pretty easy sales pitch.

If I had to guess, I would say a Minnesota-only district system would devastate the surrounding areas. Iowa with 11 teams, North Dakota with 3 (including 1 that is no more than 15 minutes from the MN border), etc. I just don't see those states thriving if they are put on an island. If we include them in our district, we have to decide who we eventually cut off. We take Iowa and North Dakota, but should we take Wisconsin? South Dakota? I don't believe there is an easy solution.

Bryan Herbst

10-04-2016, 20:29

I can say that both venues this weekend had key volunteers pushing for 9 matches but the people who determine how many matches vetoed it. Also for some reason it was determined that both events had to have the same number of matches. North star was running ahead of schedule and had to routinely slow their pace, we easily could have had 9 maybe even 10 matches but since 10K didnt think they could with 3 more teams North Star got shafted.

These 2 events were just that 2 DIFFERENT events and should be run that way.

I'll take some credit here, and hopefully clarify the decision to play 8 matches. I was on 10,000 Lakes with 63 teams.

I'm apparently one of the people who "vetoed" 9 matches, though I don't recall doing it in a way I would consider "vetoing." I would also like to add that at no point did a key volunteer approach me and say "Bryan, we should really get 9 matches in," so I'm not sure where that information came from.

On Wednesday as we were generating the schedule here is what we put into the FMS:

The public agenda for the event (which had the same amount of time allocated to qualification matches as most FRC regionals)
A 7 minute cycle time (as presribed by FIRST, and corroborrated throughout the previous 5 weeks of competition)
A 45 minute lunch on Friday
3 minute breaks for audience defense selection as generated by the FMS

The first time we did this, we put in 8 matches per team and our schedule ended up about a half an hour short on Saturday and a hair early on Friday.

At this point, the event manager joined the FTA and the scorekeeper and asked if 9 matches was possible. We changed the matches per team to 9, and the FMS informed us that doing so would put us 45 minutes late on Saturday and just a hair late on Friday. That is how we made the decision to go with 9 matches.

Here's the deal with the public agenda: One of the biggest responsibilities of FTAs and event managers is to keep the event running as close to the schedule as possible. Failing to do so has serious implications for teams. Some teams have buses that cannot wait or charge for waiting, some teams have multiple hour drives to get home, and the list goes on. Playing through lunch is not only terrible for the volunteers, but it is terrible for teams as well because suddenly they need to chose between lunch or playing matches as well. Playing through lunch is an absolute last resort- for situations like it sounds like UMass Dartmouth was in.

Additionally, ending 45 minutes late puts us at significant risk for an even greater setback. Replays, guest speakers like Dean Kamen, or broken defenses could easily make that 45 minutes and hour and half or longer. By sticking closer to the schedule we are able to be more confident that we can provide a good team experience.

And that's the real message here: Team experience at an event is about so much more than whether you played 8 or 9 official qualification matches. What you do at an event, the people you meet, and the teams you help. I would argue that if the only value your team gets out of an event comes from the number of matches you play, then you aren't getting the right things out of your events. Yes, I agree, more matches are always better. If I could give teams 12 plays at every regional event in Minnesota, I would. But I can't.

Knufire

10-04-2016, 20:43

The reason, simply put, is Ryan :) He is far and away the most passionate recent grad MN has had, and has done amazing things with Bison Robotics. He's the one who brought us all the volunteers.

Great leaders definitely inspire the people around them, and it sounds like Ryan is a great example of this. I applaud Bison Robotics for what they do, traveling that far to volunteer is definitely a sign of true dedication to the program. I hope that other universities in the area follow this example as well; everyone is in agreement that more events are needed in Minnesota (regionals or districts), and more volunteers are needed to go along with those events.

There are two things that are never brought up in these conversations.

What about out state teams that will have to travel for both distinct events. ...

The other thing I never hear about is you have 2 practice matches on Thursday, and if you get inspected early, you can be in the backup line and play more. So realistically they are not just getting 8 plays. Yes I understand 8 in qualification plays.

Yes, there are a small group of teams that districts do make life harder for. 5188, for example, is located about 10 minutes from the Illinois border. Prior to districts, 5188 just competed at a local regional held in Terre Haute (Crossroads), and competed at the World Championship. When districts came in, Crossroads disappeared and all of the district events were held closer to the population center of teams (Indianapolis or Lafayette). All of 5188s events are at least an hour away from Terre Haute.

I know similar issues affected teams in the Upper Peninsula in Michigan, hopefully some of those active on CD (857?) can comment on their experiences before district events were added in the UP.

I have heard that one goal when attempting to plan out where district events are located is to ensure that no team is outside driving distance for both their district events. The difficulty of this is highly dependent on the geographic size of the district, which is a consideration when initially forming the district area. If the area is too large, you do lose some of forcing more rural teams to travel several times.

On the topic of practice matches, district events also have pits open for a few hours on load in day where teams can get inspected and get in the filler line for practice matches as well (given the field is ready).

Andrew Schreiber

10-04-2016, 20:44

Yes, I agree, more matches are always better. If I could give teams 12 plays at every regional event in Minnesota, I would. But I can't.

Cool, so we've reached a consensus - More matches = more better for teams.

We've even agreed that we want what's best for teams. Yay! Progress.

So, you're telling me the primary issue is in the combination match turn time combined with teams. [1] What steps can we take to alleviate this?

- FiM runs two fields side by side, and I know some Canadian events have. Would that be a viable solution?
- Would leaning on FIRST HQ and the GDC to lower match turn times (i.e. field reset) help? What is the lowest we can get this number? What lessons can we learn from games with low turn times?
- I noticed you said that guest speakers were a problem, I understand the need for VIPs and what have you to talk. But would stuffing them into field breaks be a viable option?
- Field breakage, ok this is TERRIBLE this year. Goes hand in hand with match turn times I'd assume. What lessons can we take from the past games here? [2]
- Are FMS connection times an issue? I know it's something we had issues with in NE
- I'm gonna harp on this one a bit, cut down the number of teams? Option? [3]

[1] Yes I knew this already

[2] My role primarily involves not being around the field much.

[3] This is really why I push districts - it lets teams play more, for less money and lets more teams take home hardware. Hardware is REALLY inspiring which achieves FIRST's Mission. Just this weekend we played with a team that had, in 20 years, NEVER made it to the finals of an event. Their kids were inspired. A chance they wouldn't have had in a regional system where a second play was 4k.

Ginger Power

10-04-2016, 20:45

guest speakers like Dean Kamen...

Can confirm that Dean slowed down the event. He was trying to leave for well over a half hour, but of course he couldn't pass up a single autograph. He was absolutely mobbed in the pit area with well over 50 people surrounding him. I served as a "bodyguard" and did my best to hold back what felt like hundreds of crazed children in the most GP way I could manage. It was an interesting time.

bkahl

10-04-2016, 20:45

PayneTrain

10-04-2016, 20:53

Cool, so we've reached a consensus - More matches = more better for teams.

We've even agreed that we want what's best for teams. Yay! Progress.

So, you're telling me the primary issue is in the combination match turn time combined with teams. [1] What steps can we take to alleviate this?

- FiM runs two fields side by side, and I know some Canadian events have. Would that be a viable solution?
- Would leaning on FIRST HQ and the GDC to lower match turn times (i.e. field reset) help? What is the lowest we can get this number? What lessons can we learn from games with low turn times?
- I noticed you said that guest speakers were a problem, I understand the need for VIPs and what have you to talk. But would stuffing them into field breaks be a viable option?
- Field breakage, ok this is TERRIBLE this year. Goes hand in hand with match turn times I'd assume. What lessons can we take from the past games here? [2]
- Are FMS connection times an issue? I know it's something we had issues with in NE
- I'm gonna harp on this one a bit, cut down the number of teams? Option? [3]

[1] Yes I knew this already

[2] My role primarily involves not being around the field much.

[3] This is really why I push districts - it lets teams play more, for less money and lets more teams take home hardware. Hardware is REALLY inspiring which achieves FIRST's Mission. Just this weekend we played with a team that had, in 20 years, NEVER made it to the finals of an event. Their kids were inspired. A chance they wouldn't have had in a regional system where a second play was 4k.

In all seriousness and despite my bias from being someone who put forth the idea that I had never heard of before, Minnesota could lead the charge to run a regional/dcmp hybrid schedule. It's sort of a brute force way to give teams more matches but it opens the door to give some light training to volunteers, get teams used to unbag time, you could keep the venues and team counts you have, and you aren't increasing travel burden.

This is a solution that comes with a different set of problems, but the current solution in MN is obviously causing problems and the mainline potential solution seems to be a nonstarter for leadership. My question is, por que no los dos?

novamx3

10-04-2016, 20:58

Jon Stratis

10-04-2016, 21:04

Lets get this kid a Key Volunteer Position! Sounds like he would make a great Volunteer Coordinator.

He is in training for LRI, which I believe is his preferred position :) Based on this past year, there isn't room for more LRI's currently, but we are looking forward with our training to ensure we always have enough, and Ryan is playing a key part in that for my crew! As we add more events in the area (Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota, North/South Dakota, etc), we will need more LRI's. I'm personally hopeful that we'll get an event more in the North West part of MN in the next couple of years that he can take and run for me, but that is pure speculation on my part.

EricH

10-04-2016, 21:04

This is a solution that comes with a different set of problems, but the current solution in MN is obviously causing problems and the mainline potential solution seems to be a nonstarter for leadership. My question is, por que no los dos?
Question (for both you and Andrew): Do the MN teams think that the current solution is actually causing problems, or is it the DISTRICT folks that have the problem with it?

Look, I understand you guys mean well, and want to make sure every team gets as many plays as they can possibly cram in. But there are a lot of other factors that come into play, and when you appear to be deliberately ignoring them, you really make people annoyed. Heck, I'm not in districts (though I'd really like to be), but I can understand why certain people don't want 'em, or can't go for 'em. Districts are not the end-all solution for "we aren't getting the value", necessarily. It depends on what your definition of value is--one of the Chilean teams spoke up a in another thread and pointed out that if CA went district, they'd lose their home regional, and that's not the first time that happened. That's not good for them, because they'd be traveling out here for two weeks--imagine doing THAT plus DCMP and maybe CMP! (For that matter, I'd love to hear from the AK team playing in PNW this year, as they've got a similar problem.)

BTW, L.A. could host a 72-team event. They've got the space for another 6 pits. That'd give each team... 7 plays. Guess what, they cap at 66 to try to help with the plays, and by teams/minute were the fastest regional to fill this year (third fastest by time). If they capped at 40 and there wasn't another regional around, you'd hear the complaining clear from the East Coast.

Bryan Herbst

10-04-2016, 21:08

So, you're telling me the primary issue is in the combination match turn time combined with teams. [1] What steps can we take to alleviate this?

- FiM runs two fields side by side, and I know some Canadian events have. Would that be a viable solution?
- Would leaning on FIRST HQ and the GDC to lower match turn times (i.e. field reset) help? What is the lowest we can get this number? What lessons can we learn from games with low turn times?
- I noticed you said that guest speakers were a problem, I understand the need for VIPs and what have you to talk. But would stuffing them into field breaks be a viable option?
- Field breakage, ok this is TERRIBLE this year. Goes hand in hand with match turn times I'd assume. What lessons can we take from the past games here? [2]
- Are FMS connection times an issue? I know it's something we had issues with in NE
- I'm gonna harp on this one a bit, cut down the number of teams? Option? [3]

Thanks Andrew, I think these are excellent questions to move the discussion forward. The intent of my post was to emphasize that the number of plays in qualifications is essentially determined long before anyone steps foot in the venue, so there's little we can do when the event starts to squeeze in an extra play or two.

Running two fields side by side was essentially the solution years ago when Duluth and Minneapolis both became double regionals. At this point we need more events (and more money to do more events).

Cycle times vary year to year, and is influenced by the game. A more complex game that might be more fun might require longer cycle times. Its a tradeoff.

I wouldn't say guest speakers are a problem, especially if you are close to on time. If you are already half an hour behind, they are one of the last things you want.

FMS connection times haven't been terrible for me this year. A little slower than last year, but not enough that tightening that would add a significant number of matches.

I think you hit the nail on the head that fewer teams is the key, the solution is identifying a path forward for getting there and getting more people to help in achieving that goal.

Knufire

10-04-2016, 21:09

Question (for both you and Andrew): Do the MN teams think that the current solution is actually causing problems, or is it the DISTRICT folks that have the problem with it?

From talking to MN teams this past weekend, it isn't as much of a problem as room for improvement. Most of these teams never knew about districts, and you don't exactly miss what you never had. I think there are other issues in MN that could be considered a "problem", but right now number of matches isn't one of them.

bkahl

10-04-2016, 21:09

I'm 20.

He is in training for LRI

I wish you the best of luck in your training! You'll be one of the youngest LRI's I've ever met.

I'm glad you're doing this, and I hope it sends a good message to the rest of the alumni around you, and across the FIRST Community that they too can be the volunteer positions they truly want to be!

plnyyanks

10-04-2016, 21:12

I can try and answer some of these...

- Would leaning on FIRST HQ and the GDC to lower match turn times (i.e. field reset) help? What is the lowest we can get this number? What lessons can we learn from games with low turn times?
- Field breakage, ok this is TERRIBLE this year. Goes hand in hand with match turn times I'd assume. What lessons can we take from the past games here?
- Are FMS connection times an issue? I know it's something we had issues with in NE

1. 6 minute cycles is as low as I've ever seen them scheduled (and probably 5 and a half is as low as is realistic, and only in the the ideal case). 2014 is the last year I can think of (example (http://www2.usfirst.org/2014comp/events/CTHAR/schedulequal.html)) where that was doable because there was basically no field reset. Give it 3 minutes on average between match start and green lights. A robot takes ~60 seconds to boot up and connect. Add another minute to get 6 robots on/positioned and 6 robots off, and there's 5.5 minute cycles (with a 30 second buffer for troubleshooting/intros/whatever).
2. The main lesson I see, simple fields (2012, 2014) means fast cycles. If the field reset portion can be done in 2 or 3 minutes, then it won't be the blocker in cycle times. The more frequently it takes longer than that, the more likely it is to be the part slowing the event down. As an interesting aside, this year, once the reset crews got in their rhythm, it could go super quickly (at NYC, we had at least 10 sub-7 minute cycles, so it's definitely doable).
3. The current control systems are definitely slower to boot up than others from the past. I spend most of my events fieldside, and many of the robot-based connection delays are due to miswiring (forgetting to plug the ethernet cable back into the RIO after tethering is a big one), forgetting to turn the robot on, or something that is solved with a reboot (add 1 minute on to the cycle time). I actually don't think it's that bad, but minor delays can really add up when you tack on 1 minute per robot reboot.

Ginger Power

10-04-2016, 21:20

I wish you the best of luck in your training! You'll be one of the youngest LRI's I've ever met.

I'm glad you're doing this, and I hope it sends a good message to the rest of the alumni around you, and across the FIRST Community that they too can be the volunteer positions they truly want to be!

Hearing all of this has been very humbling. I'd like to make it very clear that I'm not the only student who has the abilities to do what I'm doing. I know some very talented people both at NDSU and the University of Minnesota. I'd also argue that I'm not the most technically skilled, nor the quickest learner. I very well could be the most addicted student to FIRST, but Cadandcookies might have me beat;)

Andrew Schreiber

10-04-2016, 21:21

Question (for both you and Andrew): Do the MN teams think that the current solution is actually causing problems, or is it the DISTRICT folks that have the problem with it?

Look, I understand you guys mean well, and want to make sure every team gets as many plays as they can possibly cram in. But there are a lot of other factors that come into play, and when you appear to be deliberately ignoring them, you really make people annoyed. Heck, I'm not in districts (though I'd really like to be), but I can understand why certain people don't want 'em, or can't go for 'em. Districts are not the end-all solution for "we aren't getting the value", necessarily. It depends on what your definition of value is--one of the Chilean teams spoke up a in another thread and pointed out that if CA went district, they'd lose their home regional, and that's not the first time that happened. That's not good for them, because they'd be traveling out here for two weeks--imagine doing THAT plus DCMP and maybe CMP! (For that matter, I'd love to hear from the AK team playing in PNW this year, as they've got a similar problem.)

BTW, L.A. could host a 72-team event. They've got the space for another 6 pits. That'd give each team... 7 plays. Guess what, they cap at 66 to try to help with the plays, and by teams/minute were the fastest regional to fill this year (third fastest by time). If they capped at 40 and there wasn't another regional around, you'd hear the complaining clear from the East Coast.

I'll field this one Wil.

To me this isn't a District/NonDistrict question. Districts don't work everywhere, for those of you who know me, you'll know the Novaks are... well practically family to me. Arkansas will never have the infrastructure to support districts and if everywhere goes to districts they are screwed. I don't think Districts are the final solution to FRC's scaling issue. I do think that for some regions they are an effective stop gap.

Now, for the reasons folks have stated (mostly volunteers and lack of nonprofit group) Districts aren't currently in the cards for MN[1]

My big objection is that two fold - 8 matches given our ranking systems = screwed up rankings. More matches give more time to equalize for a crappy schedule. I want teams that put in effort to be rewarded with high ranking. It's incredibly frustrating to build a great robot and be at the mercy of the draft because of a bad schedule. More matches helps.

My other claim is that, I don't think ANYONE would argue that less matches are better for teams. I'm already on the warpath about one aspect of customer service in FRC, I'd love to see someone else take up this aspect.

I admit, I mostly come at this from a team experience perspective - I want to see every team in FRC have an experience that makes them think "wow these folks are awesome and I want to come back" The vibe I've gotten is that the lack of plays is a serious pain point for schools, it makes the costs seem really hard to swallow when VEX and FTC offer most of the same experience for a fraction of the cost.

[1] I'd like to see a plan of attack on this, publicly.

Gregor

10-04-2016, 21:31

Here's my question for you, and it's a simple one - Do you think 8 play regionals are a bad experience for teams?

...

Hi Mr Stratis,

I know this is a long thread, but I believe you missed this question directed at you. Just wanted to bring it to your attention.

PayneTrain

10-04-2016, 21:35

As a coach, I felt like we went to certain events that gave us mediocre match schedules and supplemented it with a mediocre experience because that is how the chronological and geographical cookie crumbled. This year, we went to events because we knew we had these options to find out what we liked, and we enjoyed most all of them very much regardless of our final performance. We got to watch our team develop into a machine as they played 70 regulation matches.

I will admit that despite us working with a stingy resource pool, we have tried to develop processes and a work ethic that propels our team forward and upward while holding ourselves to very high standards in the growth and development we want to chart. Sometimes the perception I have is that some people focus too much on the wrong things when faced with certain challenges and in doing so, almost willingly set themselves up to fail. This is an experience a team can have within a season and it is an experience I believe is applicable to larger scenarios in FRC.

Jon Stratis

10-04-2016, 21:46

Hi Mr Stratis,

I know this is a long thread, but I believe you missed this question directed at you. Just wanted to bring it to your attention.

It all depends on the team and their situation.

If you're talking about extending the day to add more plays, that could cause serious issues for teams - I've had teams that had to leave by a certain time due to school rules before, and extending the day would be bad for them.

If you're talking about ensuring fewer teams at events so each team gets more plays, then teams that have serious issues and need time to fix them would have a bad experience having to miss matches or sit on the field not moving because they couldn't get everything changed in time.

If you're talking about limiting the team numbers to ensure more plays, then you're actively reducing the number of teams that can play in a region. MN right now has spots for 246 teams to get plays. If we reduce each of our events to 40 teams, then we'll only have room for 160 teams to get plays. That means more teams would have to spend money traveling. Adding events is rather difficult, as it would mean more money - the current events would still cost about the same, and we'd need to add 2 more to keep the same number of plays in the state. That's an increase of 50% in donations to support our events for the same number of plays, something that simply can't happen.

So, is it bad for teams? You tell me. It might be good, it might be bad. It might be dependent on the year and the team in question. The only team I can answer that question for is my own, and I wouldn't want to answer it without getting direct feedback from my students.

Andrew Schreiber

10-04-2016, 21:50

It all depends on the team and their situation.

If you're talking about extending the day to add more plays, that could cause serious issues for teams - I've had teams that had to leave by a certain time due to school rules before, and extending the day would be bad for them.

If you're talking about ensuring fewer teams at events so each team gets more plays, then teams that have serious issues and need time to fix them would have a bad experience having to miss matches or sit on the field not moving because they couldn't get everything changed in time.

If you're talking about limiting the team numbers to ensure more plays, then you're actively reducing the number of teams that can play in a region. MN right now has spots for 246 teams to get plays. If we reduce each of our events to 40 teams, then we'll only have room for 160 teams to get plays. That means more teams would have to spend money traveling. Adding events is rather difficult, as it would mean more money - the current events would still cost about the same, and we'd need to add 2 more to keep the same number of plays in the state. That's an increase of 50% in donations to support our events for the same number of plays, something that simply can't happen.

So, is it bad for teams? You tell me. It might be good, it might be bad. It might be dependent on the year and the team in question. The only team I can answer that question for is my own, and I wouldn't want to answer it without getting direct feedback from my students.

Ok, I'll rephrase - Would you prefer to give teams more plays because you believe it would benefit them in achieving FIRST's stated mission of Inspiration?

I'm trying to find some common ground here, this isn't a trick. I'm simply asking you, mentor to mentor, would you prefer for your team to get 9 plays or 8? Which is better for inspiring your students?

Edit - and I seriously don't have an agenda here. If you say you'd rather have 8 plays, fine. We can agree to disagree and I'm fine with your opinion.

bkahl

10-04-2016, 21:52

So, is it bad for teams? You tell me. It might be good, it might be bad. It might be dependent on the year and the team in question. The only team I can answer that question for is my own, and I wouldn't want to answer it without getting direct feedback from my students.

Not to be terribly brash, but I think Andrew and Gregor are interested in YOUR opinion, not your team's.

The question is a Yes/No, I don't see a need to bounce around it.

Edit:

I'm trying to find some common ground here, this isn't a trick. I'm simply asking you, mentor to mentor, would you prefer for your team to get 9 plays or 8? Which is better for inspiring your students?

Andrew Sniped me a bit.

dradel

10-04-2016, 21:53

I will say this for districts... It does give teams that may not have the experience, tech resources, or $$ to be competitive. From my one year in regional experience which was our rookie year the regionals were overly dominated by teams that way outclassed most of the other teams. Districts still has the top notch teams from the area but it seems to be a bit more level of a playing field.
As a mentor there is not much that is more disheartening to see the defeated look in your students eyes before they even play their first match. Again districts makes it so the lower tier teams can be picked for elims or maybe even captain an alliance which both can be very inspiring!
One thing that concerns me regardless of regional or district model is sustainability. At some point costs to register are going to jump up, and when you figure in the current budget shortfalls most states are facing programs are going to be cut, and I fear for the teams that are super dependent on their school system for funding.

Road Rash

10-04-2016, 21:56

Team experience at an event is about so much more than whether you played 8 or 9 official qualification matches. What you do at an event, the people you meet, and the teams you help. I would argue that if the only value your team gets out of an event comes from the number of matches you play, then you aren't getting the right things out of your events. Yes, I agree, more matches are always better. If I could give teams 12 plays at every regional event in Minnesota, I would. But I can't.

As a newcomer to FRC, I see value everywhere in the experience I saw at the Wisconsin Regional this year. I was inspired enough to become a parent mentor for next season.

YMMV

Jon Stratis

10-04-2016, 21:56

Ok, I'll rephrase - Would you prefer to give teams more plays because you believe it would benefit them in achieving FIRST's stated mission of Inspiration?

I'm trying to find some common ground here, this isn't a trick. I'm simply asking you, mentor to mentor, would you prefer for your team to get 9 plays or 8? Which is better for inspiring your students?

Again, it depends on the year. Last year, for example, our robot performed horribly on the field. Every match we went out to left our students depressed and angry. I spent a ton of time and energy that year working to keep their spirits up, keep them motivated, and keep them working towards improvements. Every match was a huge emotional drain on everyone, and I know it wasn't inspiring for the students.

Other years are different. We go out there , do what we designed to do, and the students come back happy seeing the robot do what it's supposed to do.

Personally, I try to get my team inspired with the engineering we do, not with the on-field performance. It's difficult, and it's hard. But on-field performance is just so dependent on so many variables that it's something you don't want to rely on. So from an inspiration standpoint, I honestly don't care how many matches we get.

PayneTrain

10-04-2016, 21:57

Jon Stratis

10-04-2016, 22:02

This is very true and can be evidenced by certain states. Ones that have taken advantage of the FTC competition structure to improve team quality have seen improvements in merit qualifications to world champs. Meanwhile, those same states that stay in the regional systems send a lower percentage of FRC teams to worlds.

The difference in qualifications to Champs is that regionals get a specific number of teams per regional, while districts get a % of spots at Champs. The result is that district areas have a pretty equivalent ratio representation at champs, while some regional areas are worse. It's not a question of competitiveness. From what I saw posted on here, the new Iowa regional was highly competitive, with high scores, higher % of breaches and captures... but they still only sent the same number of teams as every other regional.

bkahl

10-04-2016, 22:04

Personally, I try to get my team inspired with the engineering we do, not with the on-field performance. It's difficult, and it's hard. But on-field performance is just so dependent on so many variables that it's something you don't want to rely on. So from an inspiration standpoint, I honestly don't care how many matches we get.

Lets say I'm Coaching a youth sportsball team.

I have the opportunity to choose between two tournaments on the same weekend.

Option 1: $5000 Registration Fee. My sportsball team gets to see the field for 8 games. The Kids are excited because there will be 60 teams from the state at this event, but only 8 plays?

Option 2: $5000 Registration Fee. My sportsball team gets on the field 12(!!!) times for the weekend! My kids are so excited, but there were only 30 other teams at this tournament. BUT, the team also received an invitation to compete in sportsball the next weekend, for no extra charge, for another 12 matches, against 30 teams AGAIN!

So.... Which do you choose?

PayneTrain

10-04-2016, 22:05

The difference in qualifications to Champs is that regionals get a specific number of teams per regional, while districts get a % of spots at Champs. The result is that district areas have a pretty equivalent ratio representation at champs, while some regional areas are worse. It's not a question of competitiveness. From what I saw posted on here, the new Iowa regional was highly competitive, with high scores, higher % of breaches and captures... but they still only sent the same number of teams as every other regional.

As a team who earned their first robot-merit spot in 14 years yesterday, I am acutely aware of this fact.

Andrew Schreiber

10-04-2016, 22:07

Again, it depends on the year. Last year, for example, our robot performed horribly on the field. Every match we went out to left our students depressed and angry. I spent a ton of time and energy that year working to keep their spirits up, keep them motivated, and keep them working towards improvements. Every match was a huge emotional drain on everyone, and I know it wasn't inspiring for the students.

Other years are different. We go out there , do what we designed to do, and the students come back happy seeing the robot do what it's supposed to do.

Personally, I try to get my team inspired with the engineering we do, not with the on-field performance. It's difficult, and it's hard. But on-field performance is just so dependent on so many variables that it's something you don't want to rely on. So from an inspiration standpoint, I honestly don't care how many matches we get.

My god man... can you reasonably say that 8 matches gives you a better return on your investment (time/money) than 9 would?

I get that it's not about the robot, I get that it sucks to go out there and lose. I get those extenuating circumstances. But holy crap, I don't think I've ever seen anyone ever try to say "well, we only had to play 8 matches".

Road Rash

10-04-2016, 22:14

Doug Frisk

10-04-2016, 22:17

My god man... can you reasonably say that 8 matches gives you a better return on your investment (time/money) than 9 would?

I get that it's not about the robot, I get that it sucks to go out there and lose. I get those extenuating circumstances. But holy crap, I don't think I've ever seen anyone ever try to say "well, we only had to play 8 matches".

That depends on how you measure return on investment.

I understand that you measure it only on the number of times the five people with drivers badges get to play qualifications matches.

Do you understand that other people may have different metrics?

For example, the metric I most care about is the promotion of STEM to the general community.

bkahl

10-04-2016, 22:17

I'm new at this, but I don't think my team has a choice. We only seem to have option 1 so I think your analogy is off a bit.

The analogy is a bit of a stretch, yes.

However, it just illustrates the idea that I've never met a competitor that wouldn't want to compete more if they had the opportunity to.

8 match play regionals really put teams at a disadvantage to teams that are able to attend, say.... Waterloo where there are 13(!!!) qualification matches, or district teams where they get 24(!!!!!!!!!) matches for the same price.

CJ_Elliott

10-04-2016, 22:18

I'm new at this, but I don't think my team has a choice. We only seem to have option 1 so I think your analogy is off a bit.

But this is the question. Option 1 is regionals. Option 2 is districts.

TheNerdJedi

10-04-2016, 22:18

Andrew Schreiber

10-04-2016, 22:31

That depends on how you measure return on investment.

I understand that you measure it only on the number of times the five people with drivers badges get to play qualifications matches.

Do you understand that other people may have different metrics?

For example, the metric I most care about is the promotion of STEM to the general community.

And the metric I care about is inspiring the $@#$@#$@#$@# students. As an alumni, know what's inspiring? Pointing and saying "we did that"

I get you can have other metrics but I really don't understand how there is a metric that benefits from only having 8 matches.

Knufire

10-04-2016, 22:32

Great leaders definitely inspire the people around them, and it sounds like Ryan is a great example of this. I applaud Bison Robotics for what they do, traveling that far to volunteer is definitely a sign of true dedication to the program. I hope that other universities in the area follow this example as well; everyone is in agreement that more events are needed in Minnesota (regionals or districts), and more volunteers are needed to go along with those events.

I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't trying to imply that other local alumni groups (GOFIRST) aren't dedicated. In fact, I was trying to state the opposite; if NDSU is providing so many volunteers to the MN regionals, I'm sure that GOFIRST can provide even more just based on the sizes of the two universities. I just felt like GOFIRST hasn't been as well utilized by the RPC as NDSU has, and the hope that GOFIRST could follow the NDSU example in the future is the hope that the opportunities that GOFIRST needs will be given to them.

XaulZan11

10-04-2016, 22:35

Teams should get a partial refund for every event that they attend that has less than 10 matches.

It's probably a little further drive but Wave should attend Midwest or Central Illinois next year. Both of those events had 10 matches and usually have more matches than those in Minnesota.

EricH

10-04-2016, 22:38

Lets say I'm Coaching a youth sportsball team.

I have the opportunity to choose between two tournaments on the same weekend.

Option 1: $5000 Registration Fee. My sportsball team gets to see the field for 8 games. The Kids are excited because there will be 60 teams from the state at this event, but only 8 plays?

Option 2: $5000 Registration Fee. My sportsball team gets on the field 12(!!!) times for the weekend! My kids are so excited, but there were only 30 other teams at this tournament. BUT, the team also received an invitation to compete in sportsball the next weekend, for no extra charge, for another 12 matches, against 30 teams AGAIN!

So.... Which do you choose?
The next weekend's competition is 3 hours away, requiring an overnight stay, and suddenly you find out that 2 of the team members can't go because their parents don't want them to, another one has a medical emergency, three can't pay, and of the rest at least one has a commitment that he can't get out of that lands right during travel. Oh, and you find this out right before you MUST choose. Which do you choose, with THAT information?

If you don't see my point, I'll put it plain and simple: Districts are not for everyone. More to the point, many people in places without districts do not see the value in districts, and do not want districts.

It's great that all y'all in districts want everybody else to be in districts. Just one thing:

GIT YER RHETORIC OFFA MY LAWN! For whatever reason, it seems like y'all are just about going militant to get everybody else to go along with your view. COOL IT. Something you may not know is that if someone is rather entrenched in a viewpoint, incorrect or not, it's worse than useless to try to hammer them over the head with the correct one until they concede! They may acknowledge to themselves that you're right, but darned if they don't want to even look like they're being forced into admitting it, and they'll resist. I'll be honest, seems like half the time when I look here, somebody else has said the exact same thing: Gotta go district, gotta go district.

Ya catch my drift?

Andrew, some folks--I name no names, but I'm not necessarily one of them--figure that you get more inspired if teams from outside the area come to you. You can't do that in a district (outside of interdistrict play, which if I'm not mistaken I can still count the totals without taking my shoes and socks off). Out where I'm at, if we didn't have one of the biggest regionals in FRC, we wouldn't be able to think about having that!

Jon Stratis

10-04-2016, 22:41

I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't trying to imply that other local alumni groups (GOFIRST) aren't dedicated. In fact, I was trying to state the opposite; if NDSU is providing so many volunteers to the MN regionals, I'm sure that GOFIRST can provide even more just based on the sizes of the two universities. I just felt like GOFIRST hasn't been as well utilized by the RPC as NDSU has, and the hope that GOFIRST could follow the NDSU example in the future is the hope that the opportunities that GOFIRST needs will be given to them.

It's not a question of the RPC "utilizing" each group differently. Last year Ryan came to us (not the other way around) and said "I've got about 30 students that want to volunteer", and then worked with us to get each of them into an appropriate volunteer spot, based on their desires, knowledge, and experience with FIRST. I believe it was that push from him and his group that led to our creating a more formalized training regimen at one of our off-season events last fall. We would love to have student groups from all the other universities in MN (not just the major one's you've heard of!) bring us volunteers like that!

Oh, and the president of GOFIRST is also on the RPC each year, while NDSU's Bison Robotic's is not represented at this time.

Road Rash

10-04-2016, 22:42

The analogy is a bit of a stretch, yes.

However, it just illustrates the idea that I've never met a competitor that wouldn't want to compete more if they had the opportunity to.

8 match play regionals really put teams at a disadvantage to teams that are able to attend, say.... Waterloo where there are 13(!!!) qualification matches, or district teams where they get 24(!!!!!!!!!) matches for the same price.

But this is the question. Option 1 is regionals. Option 2 is districts.

I do understand the point and the competitive nature of FRC. That being said, I see greater value in the educational aspect of FRC beyond the competition. My son is gaining an extremely valuable experience that will better prepare him for his eventual career choice than what he will learn in high school. Yes, more matches is nice and all, but the real payoff of FRC for my son is his future. That's my big picture view.

FRANKlybored

10-04-2016, 22:57

I have been really biting my tongue throughout this conversation, but Andrew, really,

My god man... can you reasonably say that 8 matches gives you a better return on your investment (time/money) than 9 would?

This is one of the most massively disingenuous arguments that I've ever heard. The number of matches, as DareDad points out below, is just one of very many columns when evaluating the impact of an event on a team.

That depends on how you measure return on investment.

I understand that you measure it only on the number of times the five people with drivers badges get to play qualifications matches.

Do you understand that other people may have different metrics?

Let's try to break this down:

What are some the benefits (I don't think anyone here is arguing that there any or of injury due to) of playing more matches?

Drivers get additional minutes on the field
Team feels a sense of accomplishment by seeing their robot play more times
Rankings are more likely to be representative of the quality of the robots/drive teams

Now let's take a look at some of those other "columns in a spreadsheet" about event quality/value:

What does the event physically look like? Is there inspirational value in playing in larger, sometimes iconic venues with more production value?
How many teams are students interacting with? Is there inspirational value in the diversity and reach of teams at an event?
What is the team experience like due to quality of volunteers? Is there customer service value in not spreading volunteers too thinly over consecutive weeks, and recruiting volunteers (particularly key ones) of lower caliber out of necessity?*
How comfortable is the event for a teams due to scheduling? JAMMING 10 matches into a schedule that should really only have 9 is not just stressful and tiring for volunteers, it can also be stressful and tiring for teams. Besides the five drive team members that are participating in those extra matches, the rest of those teams need to be present, in the stands and in the pits - and running schedules too long (and neglecting time for delays on the field) isn't fun for anyone. There gets to a point where it goes from fun to frustrating, and at what gain? A match?
Many other considerations that I haven't touched on, especially regarding team geography and cost of attending more than one travel event.

All of this combined with the harsh reality that many regions are at their capacity for what they can afford in terms of number of regionals, but aren't where they need to be in terms of (volunteers, viable venue space, geography of teams) to be come a district simply means that some events will have less plays than others. While this is unfortunate, it's the reality of the situation, and frankly, doesn't have the real impact on real teams that you're promoting.

There are a lot of really smart people working very hard to find the optimal configuration to run their events to the greatest benefit of the teams. Despite what others in this thread have said, I'm not under the impression that anyone is trying to "cheat teams out of matches", or are trying to promote systems that worsen team experiences. Every event and region have a different set of challenges, and attacking or just frankly being rude to the folks that are there, in those trenches, trying to make things the best that they can for their teams is beyond not being a gracious professional, it makes you appear to be ignorant as well as aggressive.

I'd highly encourage those involved to go back and re-read the progression of this thread for the past three pages or so.

****
FRANK
lybored
****

*Sidenote: Take this into consideration. The number of times that I've heard actual teams complain about an event being ruined for them because of a bad interaction with an ill-place or under-trained key volunteer far exceeds the number of times that I've heard actual teams complain of playing 8 matches instead of 9 or 10 or 13(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) <= to quote Bailey.

Gregor

10-04-2016, 22:57

EricH

10-04-2016, 23:13

What on Earth does that have to do with districts?
He's using a sports analogy. I'm pointing out that there's some real-life problems that could shut down the second play from the get-go.

My team was, at one point, considering declining our Champs slot due to similar concerns. Schoolwork, missed school (it's our 4th event), and family commitments can easily cut down the number of available students to the point where "Is it worth it" becomes a very real question.

Now, had we known from the beginning of season that Champs was our destination, we'd have been able to plan around that... but we didn't.

Aren Siekmeier

10-04-2016, 23:30

Thanks Andrew, I think these are excellent questions to move the discussion forward. The intent of my post was to emphasize that the number of plays in qualifications is essentially determined long before anyone steps foot in the venue, so there's little we can do when the event starts to squeeze in an extra play or two.

Running two fields side by side was essentially the solution years ago when Duluth and Minneapolis both became double regionals. At this point we need more events (and more money to do more events).

Cycle times vary year to year, and is influenced by the game. A more complex game that might be more fun might require longer cycle times. Its a tradeoff.

I wouldn't say guest speakers are a problem, especially if you are close to on time. If you are already half an hour behind, they are one of the last things you want.

FMS connection times haven't been terrible for me this year. A little slower than last year, but not enough that tightening that would add a significant number of matches.

I think you hit the nail on the head that fewer teams is the key, the solution is identifying a path forward for getting there and getting more people to help in achieving that goal.

These have gotten a bit buried, but Bryan had two really great posts. I hope everyone reads them :)

I'll add that there is also not space at the current MN venues to run two fields side by side for a single regional event. Maybe expanding to Ridder for pit space or something, but it's usually in use.

Now let's take a look at some of those other "columns in a spreadsheet" about event quality/value:

What does the event physically look like? Is there inspirational value in playing in larger, sometimes iconic venues with more production value?
How many teams are students interacting with? Is there inspirational value in the diversity and reach of teams at an event?
What is the team experience like due to quality of volunteers? Is there customer service value in not spreading volunteers too thinly over consecutive weeks, and recruiting volunteers (particularly key ones) of lower caliber out of necessity?*
How comfortable is the event for a teams due to scheduling? JAMMING 10 matches into a schedule that should really only have 9 is not just stressful and tiring for volunteers, it can also be stressful and tiring for teams. Besides the five drive team members that are participating in those extra matches, the rest of those teams need to be present, in the stands and in the pits - and running schedules too long (and neglecting time for delays on the field) isn't fun for anyone. There gets to a point where it goes from fun to frustrating, and at what gain? A match?
Many other considerations that I haven't touched on, especially regarding team geography and cost of attending more than one travel event.

Some opinions here, but here are my answers:

No. I like the lights on, and smaller more numerous venues that make the competition more accessible. DCMP and CMP are opportunites for production value. Others may disagree.
No. I find that 60 teams at an event is too many to take in. Scouting is more unwieldy, you see barely two thirds of them in matches. At 40 teams or less you get to know everyone. Others may disagree.
This is part the cost of switching to districts, and the benefits of districts motivates building the infrastructure to cover these costs. It's about the teams, build the system to support the teams.
Another argument for districts. More events with fewer teams at each allows more match play without this strain on the system.
An important consideration for sparsely populated areas. MN has fairly high team density across the state though, similar to MI outside cities.

If we want more play time, the answer is easy. More events, fewer teams at each event. It's a challenge people are working to solve, with many tradeoffs involved, and lots of infrastructure to build. I really hope the volunteers aren't seen as incompetent, they do a wonderful job.

Peyton Yeung

10-04-2016, 23:43

When I was a student I wished we had more matches at our regionals. Looking back we had regionals with between 9 and 12 qualification matches (more than 8). Those extra matches gave me opportunities to talk and meet more people from all sorts of different teams. Was I inspired by competing in a college sports field? Of course. I agree that competing in a regional location can increase the "feel" of the event.

Districts and regionals are two different ways of doing something and they both have positives and negatives. In the end it seems more important to ask the kids and see what they want.

Mr V

11-04-2016, 00:09

The next weekend's competition is 3 hours away, requiring an overnight stay, and suddenly you find out that 2 of the team members can't go because their parents don't want them to, another one has a medical emergency, three can't pay, and of the rest at least one has a commitment that he can't get out of that lands right during travel. Oh, and you find this out right before you MUST choose. Which do you choose, with THAT information?

If you don't see my point, I'll put it plain and simple: Districts are not for everyone. More to the point, many people in places without districts do not see the value in districts, and do not want districts.

It's great that all y'all in districts want everybody else to be in districts. Just one thing:

GIT YER RHETORIC OFFA MY LAWN! For whatever reason, it seems like y'all are just about going militant to get everybody else to go along with your view. COOL IT. Something you may not know is that if someone is rather entrenched in a viewpoint, incorrect or not, it's worse than useless to try to hammer them over the head with the correct one until they concede! They may acknowledge to themselves that you're right, but darned if they don't want to even look like they're being forced into admitting it, and they'll resist. I'll be honest, seems like half the time when I look here, somebody else has said the exact same thing: Gotta go district, gotta go district.

Ya catch my drift?

Andrew, some folks--I name no names, but I'm not necessarily one of them--figure that you get more inspired if teams from outside the area come to you. You can't do that in a district (outside of interdistrict play, which if I'm not mistaken I can still count the totals without taking my shoes and socks off). Out where I'm at, if we didn't have one of the biggest regionals in FRC, we wouldn't be able to think about having that!

Actually the fact that on any given weekend during competition season someone can get sick or have some commitment that they can't get out of is one of the biggest pluses to the district system to teams that are one and done in the Regional system.

I spent 5 seasons in the Regional system on a team that attended 2 events. I do not believe that every student attended both events during that time. Yes some times it was because the parent wouldn't allow the student travel the ~3hrs to the next closest event. However there were also students that were unable to attend the event that was only ~1hr away. Going to 2 events meant that a much larger number of students were able to attend at least one event. Now under the District system that same team has 2 events that are under 1/2 hr away. Some of those students that couldn't attend the travel event did so because their commitment or illness really only prevented them from attend part of the event and it was prohibitive to make the long travel for a single day.

Now certainly that situation does not apply to all teams. For some it does mean that their second event is 2, 3, 4 or more hrs away than their closest event. However the fact remains that for almost all of the teams there is now an event that is a similar or shorter distance than before.

Alan Anderson

11-04-2016, 01:17

I get you can have other metrics but I really don't understand how there is a metric that benefits from only having 8 matches.

Given the choice between 8 matches and more than 8 matches, everything else being equal, I too would have a hard time understanding someone who preferred to compete in fewer matches.

However, everything else is not equal. I think it's clear that you put the number of matches per team at a higher priority than other criteria, but can you really not grasp that other people can value other things more? In just the past month, I have seen people say they prefer "more polished" regional events over "amateurish" district competitions, or the high-quality seating of a professional sports arena over the non-air-conditioned bleachers of a high school gymnasium, or the opportunity to play with 60 teams from around the country over 32 of the same teams they already saw this year.

In this thread alone there are people who express a desire for more time between matches, which naturally means fewer matches in total. And there, now you have a metric that benefits from having only 8 matches.

jessss

11-04-2016, 01:40

I've tried to stay out of these threads as much as I could, but as a mentor of a MN team I think it's important. Also this is my view on the whole situation, other mentors and students from my team might feel differently.

Our team has attended two regionals each year since 2013. We've been lucky enough to have sponsors and have had very few problems financially when it comes to paying for our regionals. Our main problem though is the lack of inspiration felt by competing at Minnesota events this past year. The return on investment, all of the work we do throughout the season, especially the hours that us mentors put in just to play so few matches doesn't make sense. When you have a robots on your alliance not moving during half of your matches during an eight play regional my students stop feeling inspired, and their moods start to sour. Also, last year we got three matches on Saturday, a day our parents and sponsors come to support the team and watch us compete. We had parents and sponsors come again this year who missed out on our one Saturday match, they were devastated, and once again our students were bummed that they couldn't show their parents what they've been working on this season.

Listen I appreciate everything that the MN RPC does for the state and have spent seven years loving the 10,000 Lakes Regional but honestly it doesn't make sense for my team to compete at these events anymore.

My team is more than likely going to make the switch from FRC to FTC next year. If we do, we not only do we get to work with an awesome staff at High Tech Kids, but we will be saving a lot of money. It makes more sense to our school to pay $150 a tournament where we would get five matches and don't have to travel at all instead of an eight play $5,000 regional. That's $30 a match instead of $625, and trust me I don't mind my kids competing in a high school gym. That return on investment makes more sense to me than watching my upset kids after only getting to play eight matches.

So for teams like mine, it's not worth sitting around waiting for things to change in the state anymore. Listen we all have our own views, I'm just trying to inspire my students and right now it's not working.

Isaac Ash

11-04-2016, 02:16

I think it's clear that you put the number of matches per team at a higher priority than other criteria, but can you really not grasp that other people can value other things more?

While there are certainly many things that go into an event that one can value, I think what most people are missing in this mentor-dominated conversation is that students want to see their robot do well. I know FIRST is more than robots, but that's not exactly an easy message to observe when team members pour so much of their time into one 120" reason. (Remember, students only get at most 4 of these things, and a majority of MN teams don't have the infrastructure set up to do much more than build, meaning that the robot is what most students are focused on).

Being finalists and qualifying for champs in 2014 was a turning point on 4536. Bringing home an MSHSL banner was a turning point on 4607. These are the successes that bring in more kids and inspire students to go into STEM fields, because they can see all their efforts validated on the field. They help an FRC team grow and continue to succeed.

Sure, the perks that come from competing in a super-regional are nice, but from most students' points of view, they are not even close to the value of seeing your robot do well. Playing in a basketball arena does not inspire students to become engineers. Longer times between matches to talk to members of other teams does not grow or improve an FRC team.

Students get excited about success. They get excited about making eliminations and winning awards. That's what helps them succeed again. That's what helps them make it loud. And the data has shown that the best way to accomplish that is with fewer teams at more events. That gives them more opportunities to compete and improve their robot.

Disclaimer: While I cannot speak for all students in FIRST, my opinions on what MN students look for are based on my own team's, as well as what I've observed from other local teams, and from the views others in my high school have expressed about robotics and inspiration in general.

Jon Stratis

11-04-2016, 07:58

Also, last year we got three matches on Saturday, a day our parents and sponsors come to support the team and watch us compete. We had parents and sponsors come again this year who missed out on our one Saturday match, they were devastated, and once again our students were bummed that they couldn't show their parents what they've been working on this season.

Unfortunately, this was something that was completely out of our control. With Goldy's Run scheduled on the same day as our event (i'm sure you saw the runners right outside on University Ave, the closed lanes, and limited available parking), it was everything we could do to get teams the matches on Saturday that they had, and we reworked the entire schedule for the event to ensure teams didn't lose out on match time overall because of the scheduling conflict and the late start on Saturday. It really did suck, because we know we get more spectators on Saturdays than the other days, and really do want teams to be able to show their stuff while all those people are there.

Alan Anderson

11-04-2016, 08:05

...students want to see their robot do well.

That implies that students do not want to see their robot do poorly, right?

A robot that does not perform well is not a robot those students want to see playing in a match. If a team has such a robot, for whatever reason, then more matches is not automatically a good thing.

I admit that I'm giving arguments that go against something that I personally believe: playing more matches is an appropriate goal. But I don't think I'm doing it just for the sake of arguing. I am honestly trying to answer people who seem to be asking why everyone else doesn't wholeheartedly agree that an 8-match schedule is a priori unacceptable.

CJ_Elliott

11-04-2016, 08:21

can you really not grasp that other people can value other things more? In just the past month, I have seen people say they prefer "more polished" regional events over "amateurish" district competitions, or the high-quality seating of a professional sports arena over the non-air-conditioned bleachers of a high school gymnasium, or the opportunity to play with 60 teams from around the country over 32 of the same teams they already saw this year.

In this thread alone there are people who express a desire for more time between matches, which naturally means fewer matches in total. And there, now you have a metric that benefits from having only 8 matches.

I understand that people like the regionals. If you are in the stands as a spectator and don't really get the whole robotics thing. Then yes. "more polished", air conditioned, and high quality seating is what you would probably what you want. But from a student. I will not speak for anyone but myself, but when I go to a competition, even like 10K this year where our team grenaded 3 gearboxes, broke our climber, broke our active intake, and our shooter loosened, I do not give a crap as to how comfortable the seats in the stands are. I don't care if the pits have AC. I don't care if I'm in a gym or a sports arena. If chairs really inspired me that much I would be in woodcrafting club and not robotics. I care if our robot works or not. Even if it works for 1 match but it works really well. I want to have our robot work.

Brian Maher

11-04-2016, 12:20

Even if it works for 1 match but it works really well. I want to have our robot work.

These two sentences really hit home with me. In 2013, my team had a really hard time financially and competitively. I am grateful we had the chance to play 2 events with 12 matches each. Every match was another chance for the robot to work. If we didn't have as many matches, we may not have had a chance to experience the bits of robot functionality we saw, like when we successfully blocked a full-court shooter for most of a match. Having those matches, and then a second competition after, gave us more chances to see success. If we didn't have a second competition (and if we had regionals, we wouldn't have), we may have not gotten our first judged award in four year that season.

More matches and more competitions give teams, especially struggling teams, more chances to work out their issues and be inspired by their hard work all coming together.

BrendanB

11-04-2016, 13:34

Going into a team's first event, they don't really have the 6 hours of unbag time to pass inspection - most of the time we find inspection issues that the team is completely unaware of - you can't fix what you don't know! It's something I (personally) and concerned with, and am trying to think about ways we could address it. Trust me, I haven't heard anyone use this as an excuse - I think everyone just assumes that I'll be able to make it work for us just like we have at our regionals for years :p

Sorry to jump back a few pages I didn't have the time to post until now.

Do you think it would be worthwhile to create a video on the inspection process to walk teams through the checklist? For the most part it stays the same from year to year with new additions due to updated games/rules but a lot of the big issues like weight, size, and bumpers have been pretty consistent with a few small changes.

I know for a newbie in FIRST the inspection process was a mysterious part of competition until you go through it the first time. Sending a video like that with the inspection sheet a week before bag (if it can be made available that early) to teams could help them catch problems they might not have seen until then.

Imagine a field tour video but of a robot going through inspection.

Jon Stratis

11-04-2016, 13:51

Sorry to jump back a few pages I didn't have the time to post until now.

Do you think it would be worthwhile to create a video on the inspection process to walk teams through the checklist? For the most part it stays the same from year to year with new additions due to updated games/rules but a lot of the big issues like weight, size, and bumpers have been pretty consistent with a few small changes.

I know for a newbie in FIRST the inspection process was a mysterious part of competition until you go through it the first time. Sending a video like that with the inspection sheet a week before bag (if it can be made available that early) to teams could help them catch problems they might not have seen until then.

Imagine a field tour video but of a robot going through inspection.

It might help, but it's also difficult to give good advice without the robot sitting in front of you. As an example, the 8" bumper rule has been really rough this year, but what can we do other than repeat the rule in such a video? If someone didn't understand it while reading the rules during the season, they won't understand it while having the rule read to them. And I personally won't release a video that contains anything that could be labeled as an "interpretation" of the rule. Interpretations are just too malleable. For example, take a look at the issue over Velcro on bumpers this year, or the question of legal pressure regulators. In both cases, my interpretation of the rule was changed twice in mid season, due to what I was told by HQ and the Q&A. I would support HQ doing such a video, but wouldn't want to do one all by myself, on my own initiative.

What we do already for teams, however, is offer inspection services during the build season. We have inspectors at the week-0 events (and usually an LRI at each of them!) performing inspections. I've driven to teams build spaces (up to an hour or so away) to perform inspections on them and their neighboring teams. We have inspection presentations at all of our December training events (led by an LRI) that informs teams of the biggest issues we see year to year, and covers most of the rules that generally don't change. I get emails and phone calls all season long about the Robot Rules, asking if something is legal or not, and am able to point those people to the specific rules that are most applicable, or recommend they get on the Q&A if it really is something ambiguous. All of that helps. I know there were teams competing in Minnesota that avoided serious issues at competition because those issues were identified in week-0, when they still had some time to fix them.

Michael Corsetto

11-04-2016, 14:17

As an example, the 8" bumper rule has been really rough this year, but what can we do other than repeat the rule in such a video?

Just an aside, the 8" bumper rule is, quite possibly, the most horribly communicated, critical-to-design rule in the entire game manual. Pains me to see so many rookies miss this mark.

I'm sure someone in this thread will just tell me to suggest a better a way to communicate it. Or if I care so much about it, to do it myself.

Alas, the internet.

-Mike

Al Skierkiewicz

11-04-2016, 14:20

Wow people, I take a few hours to make a dent in my taxes and you add three pages of posts. I have a few things to add here so try and follow me it will be a bumpy ride...
Long overdue is my praise of the NDSU students at Duluth. I heard praise from almost everyone at the event. They handled themselves very well, doing the hard work that does need to get done at any event. From what I could see the FTA and other Key Volunteers, just pointed and said "go do (this)" and the next time they saw them it was done. Nice job everyone! I can give no higher praise that to say 'I would work with again, anytime'. I am thankful that you had a school schedule that allowed to attend the events.

Andrew, no one thinks less is more. I would love to see more than ten matches especially if my team could only attend one event. That being said, there are all kinds of issues that rear their ugly head that will compress that schedule. Every minute that is delayed, means the next regional will likely have less time to unload and setup. Regionals do not make the truck schedule. Districts will still have to transport the field, generators and other equipment from regional to regional. In districts in small states that is a lot easier than in larger states like Michigan and Minnesota. (BTW Michigan is larger than Minnesota in area)

A few things that haven't been mentioned yet...
Every team wants to take home hardware. Too many teams are missing out on the awards because or their travel schedule now. They end up leaving prior to the finals matches if they are not competing. If it was me, every team would get some kind of award. However, even the awards that we do give out, all take time to present. We could compress that little by making presentations during finals matches. Say for Highest Rookie Seed, Entrepreneur, Excellence in Design, etc. In a six minute reset time that is a good use of time.
Judges stay to the end (to present awards) and all of them have been going full on interviewing teams for two solid days and deliberating. To lengthen the day adds to their tough day. They are the very ones we want to keep happy as they are leaders in industry (at least many of them) and we are hoping that will garner sponsors for our teams and events. Many of those people have to travel as well. Districts have less awards so they have less time dedicated to presenting.
Finally, we need to load out the field. There is a lot of time in tearing down the field, getting it packed (correctly), loading the truck and getting it on the road. Any delay here may affect the next regional. Having been in Minnesota when the truck didn't show until midnight on Wednesday, I can tell you, it is very distressing. A team that did not attend that event stayed until the field was setup, after 4 AM on Thursday morning.

Al Skierkiewicz

11-04-2016, 14:25

Just an aside, the 8" bumper rule is, quite possibly, the most horribly communicated, critical-to-design rule in the entire game manual. Pains me to see so many rookies miss this mark.

I'm sure someone in this thread will just tell me to suggest a better a way to communicate it. Or if I care so much about it, to do it myself.

Alas, the internet.

-Mike
Mike,
By far and away, more veteran teams had issues with the 8" rule than rookies (OK maybe 50/50). It has been very distressing that teams did not interpret the rules correctly, even after the Team Update #5 that added to the bumper drawings came out in Week 3 of build. There is a big arrow pointing to a bumper segment that is "<8 inches" as being "not OK".http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAOkAAACvCAIAAAC XVG7FAAAgAElEQVR4nO2dd1gTyd/AefLw8Pj44KMhkSgi9oaV3psgUlSKcoCQ0AQpinoK1kOKBZQT5 BRI6IeHh+8PT0FREUUFpEREERKQFHoRUXrZlH3/WM1xgJiEBIju5/n+QTYzs5PdzzPMzs7sioEwMFNLcXsavgpLIOEuPd+9TlXW7qTa Lh9FY9wGXJDWMvkFKzYtPPvPrjgyjkDC4UnYCcoRm7Iaw8BAfB pqxlc5xFY5vu8ueNj4e0CGhd8N45gKR5llKL8/TaVlkTEVjgQSjkDCpb4/OEE5sLswUw0bZP9DP5tWe5TNZoEgOMDoqvz06E+y796zqgQSbv mGhRdzd0PuPm76Y4JyYHdhpoGW/mry57yRW5hsRusgmdhxK6HAP6pkL77KEU/C1nYXTlAI7C7MjKNn+ENBa0pytecwc2CCZHy6y2ABZR23e4Y/8JcdBmYsDX1vWWwm5yOTzZg4PZ/uvu74B1/lmFy9v2WAzF8JMDAjofeWxVbtzWm8+l1lOfDjLqW7KJ7sAvWmC SSnis5sPgqBgeFA7y1LrtlPIOHwVY63aQF9wCducvHs7vvuAny V41dxcXFkXMJ7XGFbysjWHgaGe952ZsdWOdqfUuNIdZt2lsVF6 8ubu5+GmuNITv+KW+3kekFHy2JN0L2dDxrDGaxhfusP85PytjM 7pmJvHBmnu2cddD8Can1zGq9+tzXkzd1h5kBBawqkb0yFo6rpS 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Drakxii

11-04-2016, 14:30

No 8 play regionals are not reasonable, but I think thy are just a symptom of another issue. I don't think 64 team regionals are reasonable.

Good schedule is just far too important in a 64 team regional. Since, in a 64 team 8 play regional, before playoffs, teams can only play with 25% of teams and against 37.5% of teams. Where as in a 40 team 12 play event, team could play with 60% of the teams and against 90% of the teams before the playoffs. Now of course in the 40 team event you are likely to get repeats.

Mr V

11-04-2016, 14:52

Mike,
By far and away, more veteran teams had issues with the 8" rule than rookies (OK maybe 50/50). It has been very distressing that teams did not interpret the rules correctly, even after the Team Update #5 that added to the bumper drawings came out in Week 3 of build. There is a big arrow pointing to a bumper segment that is "<8 inches" as being "not OK".http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAOkAAACvCAIAAAC XVG7FAAAgAElEQVR4nO2dd1gTyd/AefLw8Pj44KMhkSgi9oaV3psgUlSKcoCQ0AQpinoK1kOKBZQT5 BRI6IeHh+8PT0FREUUFpEREERKQFHoRUXrZlH3/WM1xgJiEBIju5/n+QTYzs5PdzzPMzs7sioEwMFNLcXsavgpLIOEuPd+9TlXW7qTa Lh9FY9wGXJDWMvkFKzYtPPvPrjgyjkDC4UnYCcoRm7Iaw8BAfB pqxlc5xFY5vu8ueNj4e0CGhd8N45gKR5llKL8/TaVlkTEVjgQSjkDCpb4/OEE5sLswUw0bZP9DP5tWe5TNZoEgOMDoqvz06E+y796zqgQSbv mGhRdzd0PuPm76Y4JyYHdhpoGW/mry57yRW5hsRusgmdhxK6HAP6pkL77KEU/C1nYXTlAI7C7MjKNn+ENBa0pytecwc2CCZHy6y2ABZR23e4Y/8JcdBmYsDX1vWWwm5yOTzZg4PZ/uvu74B1/lmFy9v2WAzF8JMDAjofeWxVbtzWm8+l1lOfDjLqW7KJ7sAvWmC SSnis5sPgqBgeFA7y1LrtlPIOHwVY63aQF9wCducvHs7vvuAny V41dxcXFkXMJ7XGFbysjWHgaGe952ZsdWOdqfUuNIdZt2lsVF6 8ubu5+GmuNITv+KW+3kekFHy2JN0L2dDxrDGaxhfusP85PytjM 7pmJvHBmnu2cddD8Can1zGq9+tzXkzd1h5kBBawqkb0yFo6rpS 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I agree that the 8" minimum bumper width was a problem for Veteran teams not just Rookies. Granted there are far fewer Rookies but I only had one Rookie that showed up at the events I was at that had significant bumper problems and there were a number of Veterans with similar or bigger problems.