View Full Version : Request: Picture from camera on pole in driverstation
dirtbikerxz
12-03-2016, 21:19
If anyone is using a camera on a pole in the driver station, could you please post a picture from the camera of what it sees, and also include how tall the pole is. Thanks,
MrForbes
13-03-2016, 06:31
This is aother team's setup. I don't know if they were allowed to use it for qual matches, I took this picture on practice day.
dirtbikerxz
13-03-2016, 10:06
This is aother team's setup. I don't know if they were allowed to use it for qual matches, I took this picture on practice day.
Thank you sir. could you estimate how tall their pole was from the top of the screen? Just an approximate.
The aspect ratio of the neutral zone in the picture is .23, the actual aspect ratio of the neutral zone is .51. Just taking that from the center line to the castle wall, I estimate that the camera was 12' 3" above the floor.
Edit: I thought of a much easier way to figure this that doesn't depend on the narrowness of the neutral zone. I extended the side limits of the field to the vanishing point for these parallel horizontal lines, which meet a bit above and to the right of the tower. As the top of the opposing tower is essentially 10' above the carpet, I'll revise my estimate to a few inches shy of 11 feet.
This is aother team's setup. I don't know if they were allowed to use it for qual matches, I took this picture on practice day.
Team 5012 won the Creativity Award at the Los Angeles Regional for creating a camera-on-a-pole system to view the field. Not sure how big their monitor was thought!
Billfred
13-03-2016, 12:12
Team 5012 won the Creativity Award at the Los Angeles Regional for creating a camera-on-a-pole system to view the field. Not sure how big their monitor was thought!
Won the Creativity Award in LA, banned in Orlando as a "safety hazard" by the head ref.
Hey GDC, settle this one?
David Brinza
13-03-2016, 12:28
Won the Creativity Award in LA, banned in Orlando as a "safety hazard" by the head ref.
Hey GDC, settle this one?
They already have: https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/Question/851/are-teams-allowed-to-mount-approximately-a-ten-foot-pole-with-a-wired-camera-on-top-to-their-individual-driver-station-and-get-a-birds-eye-view-of-the-match-for-driver-use-during-the-match
That doesn't mean all implementations of tall cameras are OK. Maybe the one in Orlando was unsafe??
thatprogrammer
13-03-2016, 12:30
They already have: https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/Question/851/are-teams-allowed-to-mount-approximately-a-ten-foot-pole-with-a-wired-camera-on-top-to-their-individual-driver-station-and-get-a-birds-eye-view-of-the-match-for-driver-use-during-the-match
That doesn't mean all implementations of tall cameras are OK. Maybe the one in Orlando was unsafe??
According to the teams I asked, the ref ruled any pole above the driver station was illegal no matter how it was constructed or mounted. I'm not sure how accurate this info is however, is anyone who went to the event willing to update us on what happened?
With all the hard hits to the driver station wall during the match, especially auto, I can see why an official would deem it unsafe.
dirtbikerxz
13-03-2016, 12:42
With all the hard hits to the driver station wall during the match, especially auto, I can see why an official would deem it unsafe.
That's why you attach to the velcro on the driver station
That's why you attach to the velcro on the driver station
Haha. True. But a 10 foot pole may put a little too much lever action on that velcro if it sways.
I think 5012 left their pole collapsed and on the ground during AUTO, so after that they are free to hold it upright during the rest of the match.
Anyone who saw their set up close up is free to correct me.
Billfred
13-03-2016, 12:51
They already have: https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/Question/851/are-teams-allowed-to-mount-approximately-a-ten-foot-pole-with-a-wired-camera-on-top-to-their-individual-driver-station-and-get-a-birds-eye-view-of-the-match-for-driver-use-during-the-match
That doesn't mean all implementations of tall cameras are OK. Maybe the one in Orlando was unsafe??I agree, there are some camera setups I wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole (pun intended). However, the head ref went solely on height (which is correlated to effectiveness here) without any discussion of actual design.
(For the record: 4901's camera was mounted to a retractable aluminum painter's pole. That pole was then mounted inside a 2' or so length of 2" PVC, which was then fit inside a drain fitting that used the screw mounts (backwards) to attach it to our controller board. Our drive team members could actuate it up and down from a standing position after placing it on the shelf. It would take active malice to make that become a hazard.)
According to the teams I asked, the ref ruled any pole above the driver station was illegal no matter how it was constructed or mounted. I'm not sure how accurate this info is however, is anyone who went to the event willing to update us on what happened?
This is what we experienced.
Kristian Calhoun
13-03-2016, 13:32
:ahh:
catmanjake
13-03-2016, 14:08
Any idea how we get a true ruling from FIRST? Doesn't sound right if a team wasn't allowed just because it was above driver station height.
From what we were told at Orlando, we would be allowed to use ours, but would receive a foul if it deflected a boulder back onto the field.
It shouldn't matter if the refs deem it unsafe, if the Q&A has clarified its allowed that should be the ruling.
It shouldn't matter if the refs deem it unsafe, if the Q&A has clarified its allowed that should be the ruling.
Q&A saying it's allowed* doesn't matter if it's unsafe. Safety considerations always overrule anything Q&A says.
*The Q&A ruling even said camera poles should be designed and used with safety in mind.
From what we were told at Orlando, we would be allowed to use ours, but would receive a foul if it deflected a boulder back onto the field.
Under what rule did they justify that?
AllenGregoryIV
13-03-2016, 15:33
It was also discussed by the LRI's on Tuesday night, specifically suction cup mounting to the polycarbonate and that was also ruled legal. I would hope HQ would come out with something about what is and isn't safe seeing as this is being enforced very differently at different events.
billbo911
13-03-2016, 15:45
Having seen how ridiculous and, IMHO dangerous, this has become first hand, I truly hope a limit is put in place. I do see the tactical advantage they provide.
My suggestion is, set the limit no higher than the top of the tower.
You will see everything you need to see, but the safety level is well within an acceptable range.
Tom Line
13-03-2016, 16:37
Get rid of them entirely and quickly please. One more pain in the neck to drag around, set up, delay matches, and go flying if a ball is mis fired.
Get rid of them entirely and quickly please. One more pain in the neck to drag around, set up, delay matches, and go flying if a ball is mis fired.
Multiple events have run with these with no reports of those concerns.
Multiple events have run with these with no reports of those concerns.
If there is a reasonable limit is put in place to avoid a real potential for a safety hazard would you refute it because no one has been hurt yet?
billbo911
13-03-2016, 17:04
https://billbo911.smugmug.com/Hobbies/2016/i-zBGsRGT/0/L/20160311_160802-L.jpg
This is how ridiculous it has become. Tell me there is a good reason for this.
It is literally becoming about who's is bigger, not about gaining a tactical advantage.
Lil' Lavery
13-03-2016, 17:08
Multiple events have run with these with no reports of those concerns.
There are maybe a couple dozen teams in FRC who have used them so far. Hardly a sufficient sample to be using empirical evidence to support claims they are safe.
z_beeblebrox
13-03-2016, 17:49
There are maybe a couple dozen teams in FRC who have used them so far. Hardly a sufficient sample to be using empirical evidence to support claims they are safe.
Usually, the burden is on inspectors and referees to prove that a robot is unsafe, not on teams to prove that it is safe. Why should the poles be handled differently?
Lil' Lavery
13-03-2016, 17:57
Usually, the burden is on inspectors and referees to prove that a robot is unsafe, not on teams to prove that it is safe. Why should the poles be handled differently?
I'm not claiming the burden should be any different, or that these poles are illegal. I am simply refuting the logic that of "nobody got hurt somewhere else, it must be safe."
Further still, I don't agree with your premise. The burden is definitely on the teams to prove their designs are safe. For example, no inspector is going to pass a team with a unknown pneumatic component unless the team provides documentation it meets the minimum pressure requirements. Similarly, teams will be failed inspection for sharp edges/corners, even if they have yet to cause a safety or field damage issue.
Usually, the burden is on inspectors and referees to prove that a robot is unsafe, not on teams to prove that it is safe.
You don't have to explain to an inspector why every single element of your robot is perfectly safe, but if they see something they don't like, they will want an explanation.
Just gonna leave this here, I'd love to see what the field looks like from the camera.
http://i.imgur.com/wGlp0n0.jpg
This is how ridiculous it has become. Tell me there is a good reason for this.
It is literally becoming about who's is bigger, not about gaining a tactical advantage.
I don't know why the GDC ruled them legal, but a stool not legal, but there is an advantage. A camera at tower level is totally useless. The benefit is in seeing over the defenses and seeing balls up against the far side of the outerworks. That's our pole you're referring to and while it is amusing to make jokes about whose pole is bigger, that's how tall it needs to be to see those balls against the outerworks.
billbo911
13-03-2016, 18:34
https://billbo911.smugmug.com/Hobbies/2016/i-2qKKLGp/0/L/20160313_153425-L.jpg
billbo911
13-03-2016, 18:57
I don't know why the GDC ruled them legal, but a stool not legal, but there is an advantage. A camera at tower level is totally useless. The benefit is in seeing over the defenses and seeing balls up against the far side of the outerworks. That's our pole you're referring to and while it is amusing to make jokes about whose pole is bigger, that's how tall it needs to be to see those balls against the outerworks.
https://billbo911.smugmug.com/Hobbies/2016/i-2qKKLGp/0/L/20160313_153425-L.jpg
To Cory's point, the camera that captured this image is very close to the same height above the field that 254's is.
You make the call on whether needs to be this high or not.
I think the bigger question is, is the safety risk worth it or not?
Like I said, there is a strategic advantage, no doubt.
Cory, would you agree there is a bit of risk with these towers?
pwnageNick
13-03-2016, 19:07
I think it would be cool if FIRST had an overhead camera mounted directly over the center of the field. Good teams could even get very fancy with vision tracking off of that if they wanted.
My guess is they wouldn't do something like this because part of the strategy aspect they like is the tradeoff between a harder defense and limiting visibility. This is why I'm surprised they allowed them in the first place.
David Brinza
13-03-2016, 19:10
Robot inspectors to verify the drivers' stations conform with the Robot rules:
R94 restricts the OPERATORS CONSOLE to 60" long by14" deep. There is no specified height restriction.
R95 prohibits wireless communication to the OPERATORS CONSOLE to only what is provided by the ARENA. Only a wired communication path is allowed.
As far as safety is concerned, that decision can made by referees, robot inspectors, and/or ultimately, the FTA. If somebody can get hurt, or the field and/or surrounding equipment can be damaged, the safety rule can (and should) be invoked to prohibit use of the offending hardware.
billbo911
13-03-2016, 19:32
Strategically speaking, higher IS better. Here is what the poofs see. Yes, even behind the Sally Port!
https://billbo911.smugmug.com/Hobbies/2016/i-jTzJwZw/0/L/20160313_162814-L.jpg
Strategically speaking, higher IS better. Here is what the poofs see. Yes, even behind the Sally Port!
https://billbo911.smugmug.com/Hobbies/2016/i-jTzJwZw/0/L/20160313_162814-L.jpg
Thanks for these pictures! Do you know what cameras they are using to see that crisp and clearly?
Thanks for these pictures! Do you know what cameras they are using to see that crisp and clearly?
We're using a GoPro
We're using a GoPro
Thank you!
ATannahill
13-03-2016, 20:04
https://billbo911.smugmug.com/Hobbies/2016/i-zBGsRGT/0/L/20160311_160802-L.jpg
This is how ridiculous it has become. Tell me there is a good reason for this.
It is literally becoming about who's is bigger, not about gaining a tactical advantage.
Is anyone else getting annoyed with the number of pictures posted on CD that seem to have been taken at a 45 degree angle? I definitely don't expect people to carry around a tripod to get perfectly level pictures but I feel this is a bit much. The height of the pole could easily have been shown if the picture was in portrait format.
I hate to single out this specific post but I wanted to get this out in the open.
/off-topic
We're using a GoPro
How big of a screen do you use? Do you use the camera image as the main view for driving or just to find balls and other hidden things?
What are teams using as pole? Its COTS?
Thanks
notmattlythgoe
14-03-2016, 11:14
What are teams using as pole? Its COTS?
Thanks
Doesn't look like a COT to me.
http://i5.walmartimages.com/dfw/dce07b8c-c4db/k2-_c7e50ab9-2d0a-44f1-b0a3-1af9506c07d7.v2.jpg
RoboChair
14-03-2016, 12:17
Get rid of them entirely and quickly please. One more pain in the neck to drag around, set up, delay matches, and go flying if a ball is mis fired.
1678 specifically tested ours against ball fire, the most it ever did was sway a few seconds and that was tested without velcro at the time. We have it set up before our robot is fully set up most times and broken down by the time the robot cart comes over.
David Brinza
14-03-2016, 13:03
What are teams using as pole? Its COTS?
Thanks
There are a number of options for COTS telescoping tubes (painters', window washers' extension poles, collapsible flagpoles, etc.) or teams can make their own.
It doesn't matter from an inspection perspective since the control station is not bound to bag-and-tag or withholding allowance rules and restrictions.
ProfessorAlekM
14-03-2016, 13:31
Everyone's fighting about safety, and rules, and the refs, but all we have to use is our common sense.
The ref should look at the team's camera pole, and if it looks ridiculously weak, then remove it. If it looks like it will be OK during the match, just leave it.
Simple as that.
Lil' Lavery
14-03-2016, 13:33
Everyone's fighting about safety, and rules, and the refs, but all we have to use is our common sense.
The ref should look at the team's camera pole, and if it looks ridiculously weak, then remove it. If it looks like it will be OK during the match, just leave it.
Simple as that.
You'll that quite a few people around here object to "common sense" (aka "reasonably astute observer") rulings. Those individuals prefer things to be explicitly spelled out.
Sperkowsky
14-03-2016, 13:37
These stations are pretty crazy.
Something like 3419's worries me in the wrong hands but, they took the necessary precautions to secure it. To start, they secured the entire station with industrial suction cups. When I first saw the station week 6, I made a comment on ChiefDelphi about the strength of the alliance stations and they read it. Because of this they decided to put a wood under the station.
The issue is when teams do not take the necessary precautions and mess everything up.
Andrew Schreiber
14-03-2016, 13:41
You'll that quite a few people around here object to "common sense" (aka "reasonably astute observer") rulings. Those individuals prefer things to be explicitly spelled out.
Yes. Yes I do. I'd like to rely on "astute observer" rules but I've also seen what a biased "observer" who wields absolute control can do to screw teams over.
That being said, I know we talked about pic on a stick but I think this is getting a wee bit out of hand. Though I wouldn't mind webcasts/match recordings from this perspective...
That being said, I know we talked about pic on a stick but I think this is getting a wee bit out of hand. Though I wouldn't mind webcasts/match recordings from this perspective...
I thought it was ridiculous until I saw those images, now I want a 30 ft camera pole.. Thanks to the OP for starting this thread and those who posted images.
Michael Corsetto
14-03-2016, 13:49
Yes. Yes I do. I'd like to rely on "astute observer" rules but I've also seen what a biased "observer" who wields absolute control can do to screw teams over.
That being said, I know we talked about pic on a stick but I think this is getting a wee bit out of hand. Though I wouldn't mind webcasts/match recordings from this perspective...
We recorded most of our matches from our "eyes in the sky".
I'll try to upload this week.
On the topic of the thread, the advantage we gain from our camera is noticed and helped us locate boulders to score (and avoid driving over hidden boulders).
-Mike
evanperryg
14-03-2016, 14:26
Doesn't look like a COT to me.
I heard folding chairs work pretty well, though. I have a few silly-sounding questions for some of the teams using camera poles-
1. how often does the drive team actually look at the camera? We've tried on-board cameras and the like and our drivers never seem to actually use them.
2. (this ones a little more specific to 254) doesn't that thing sway around? If so, how much does it affect the image? The stadiums we compete in can be a bit drafty, after all.
techhelpbb
14-03-2016, 14:35
Someone get the pole saw from the minibots.
TIMBER!!!
RoboChair
14-03-2016, 14:40
The camera pole thing is secretly the hidden jousting game!
This is pretty neat, never really thought about this at all while building or strategizing so I'm impressed with all who were able to take advantage of this kudos to you all. I think it's fine. safety wise has any fallen yet? The way the competition is teams are going to make sure they secure it otherwise if it falls it would be of no use to them and rather then that a distraction from driving there robots. A ten foot tower falling people are going to look. so I'm confident they will all be secured very well. And if it's kept all within the rules of the game which it curtainly seems like it does. Then it's Fair game
jvriezen
14-03-2016, 15:03
Are these poles being used telescoping or sectional? If not how are you storing them in your pit, which is restricted to 10' high and typically 10'x10' of floor space? (they need to be in the pits for inspection at least.) And if you get sway or get hit with a boulder, do you exceed the 60"x 14" rule ? Should that matter ? What if they are swaying forward into the field above the courtyard ? What should happen if a boulder hits one, and is deflected into a goal?
Artix of Astora
14-03-2016, 16:07
Are these poles being used telescoping or sectional? If not how are you storing them in your pit, which is restricted to 10' high and typically 10'x10' of floor space? (they need to be in the pits for inspection at least.) And if you get sway or get hit with a boulder, do you exceed the 60"x 14" rule ? Should that matter ? What if they are swaying forward into the field above the courtyard ? What should happen if a boulder hits one, and is deflected into a goal?
Quite a few of the poles (at least at CVR) were of the telescoping variety. After the first day of matches, quite a few teams had run out and bought a telescoping pole from Home Depot.
RoboChair
14-03-2016, 16:36
Are these poles being used telescoping or sectional? If not how are you storing them in your pit, which is restricted to 10' high and typically 10'x10' of floor space? (they need to be in the pits for inspection at least.) And if you get sway or get hit with a boulder, do you exceed the 60"x 14" rule ? Should that matter ? What if they are swaying forward into the field above the courtyard ? What should happen if a boulder hits one, and is deflected into a goal?
1678 is using a sectional aluminum tubing pole, the sway has not been an issue as it is very minor when there is any at all.
Billfred
14-03-2016, 17:18
Are these poles being used telescoping or sectional? If not how are you storing them in your pit, which is restricted to 10' high and typically 10'x10' of floor space? (they need to be in the pits for inspection at least.) And if you get sway or get hit with a boulder, do you exceed the 60"x 14" rule ? Should that matter ? What if they are swaying forward into the field above the courtyard ? What should happen if a boulder hits one, and is deflected into a goal?
We used this one (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Shur-Line-6570L-Easy-Reach-2.5-Foot-To-5-Foot-Pole-Aluminum-Each/17247592?action=product_interest&action_type=title&item_id=17247592&placement_id=irs-106-t1&strategy=PWVAV&visitor_id&category=&client_guid=f1005102-9884-45de-b71b-5f7f3fed3bd1&customer_id_enc&config_id=106&parent_item_id=20934666&parent_anchor_item_id=20934666&guid=286a19fc-a44c-4eaf-a24b-a7cc7f6956c6&bucket_id=irsbucketdefault&beacon_version=1.0.1&findingMethod=p13n), but then ours weren't quite to Ludicrous Height. Top height was a little above the standards.
IronicDeadBird
14-03-2016, 17:50
Man with all these cameras on poles I wonder if at some point there will be enough that a team won't have to use one and instead be able to just look over at another teams station.
AdamHeard
14-03-2016, 18:11
Man with all these cameras on poles I wonder if at some point there will be enough that a team won't have to use one and instead be able to just look over at another teams station.
We shared ours in several quals.
Mark McLeod
15-03-2016, 11:36
This is aother team's setup. I don't know if they were allowed to use it for qual matches, I took this picture on practice day.
Thank you sir. could you estimate how tall their pole was from the top of the screen? Just an approximate.
..., I'll revise my estimate to a few inches shy of 11 feet.
Here's a photo of the setup Jim was looking at that includes the camera height.
billbo911
15-03-2016, 11:56
Is anyone else getting annoyed with the number of pictures posted on CD that seem to have been taken at a 45 degree angle? ....
I claim artistic license.
We recorded most of our matches from our "eyes in the sky".
I'll try to upload this week.
On the topic of the thread, the advantage we gain from our camera is noticed and helped us locate boulders to score (and avoid driving over hidden boulders).
-Mike
Here is a picture of Citrus's monitor. It is quite large and easily viewed by alliance partners.
https://billbo911.smugmug.com/Hobbies/2016/i-BhgcNQX/0/L/20160313_162757-L.jpg
I'm surprised another aspect of these hasn't been brought up in this discussion. What if a ball hits the pole with sufficient energy to cause detachment of the camera? Even if the camera stays attached, what if the deflection causes the pole to sway into the volume of the field?
- It's not damage to a ROBOT, but do other rules apply?
- Is it considered obscuring teams' vision with the field?
- Is it a safety violation on the team with the pole?
- Is it a safety violation on the team who made the shot?
- Is it a safety violation on the defender who forced the shooting robot to turn or shoot high?
- Is deflection back into the field considered a foul for reaching into the field?
Joe Ross
15-03-2016, 16:44
RIP 30 ft camera poles.
Alex Webber
15-03-2016, 16:58
See http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=145768. Game Update 16 now prohibits Operator Consoles being taller than 11 feet, 8 inches.
Andrew Schreiber
15-03-2016, 17:01
See http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=145768. Game Update 16 now prohibits Operator Consoles being taller than 11 feet, 8 inches.
Dang, we'd just finished testing ours[1]
[1] Blah blah, yes this is from my Phantom2, yes I registered with the FAA, yes I'm peeved about it. No there are no people under it. And yes, this is from a while back, just figured it'd be funny.
kiettyyyy
15-03-2016, 17:03
RIP 30 ft camera poles.
RIP in pieces
Tom Bottiglieri
15-03-2016, 17:29
https://billbo911.smugmug.com/Hobbies/2016/i-zBGsRGT/0/L/20160311_160802-L.jpg
Thanks 254. This is why we can't have nice things.
Dang it.. I had just got satellite time for our Saturday matches too...
:D
Question to any teams using a gopro for there "Spy Pole": How are you able to remove the camera info shown on the screen when using the gopro HDMI out function? We have found the battery, status and other info that is displayed on the screen useless. Not to mention it takes up screen real estate!
A bit late to the party, but here's a pole cam in Week 3 w/ the new height restriction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj37l-lUKxE
WARNING: TURN DOWN YOUR VOLUME.
Apologies on the volume level, it was recorded on a school laptop from a webcam on the pole, and we didn't have any "good" recording software to use, and I haven't had time to edit it to clean up the audio.
As for the pole itself - we had really good luck with a simple paint-extension pole from Home Depot I had laying around... and a lot of duct tape. We screwed to our driver station board (velcro backed) a stack of wood... a 2x4, some 3/4" spacers, and another 2x4. "just-fitting" holes were drilled into the 2x4s to sit the base of the pole in. With the spacers the stack was tall enough to securely hold the pole, and the refs didn't even take a second glance at it.
MrRiedemanJACC
28-03-2016, 10:03
Here's what we ended up with. Worked out pretty well for us at Lansing this weekend.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bx6C43sIkx6lMlNWMkg0WmNUTlE
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bx6C43sIkx6la251MEI0WEZvWG8
Peyton Yeung
28-03-2016, 10:31
Here's what we ended up with. Worked out pretty well for us at Lansing this weekend.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bx6C43sIkx6lMlNWMkg0WmNUTlE
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bx6C43sIkx6la251MEI0WEZvWG8
That looks pretty heavy. Guess it's a good way to bulk up.
Richard Wallace
28-03-2016, 11:08
Here's what we ended up with. Worked out pretty well for us at Lansing this weekend.Yes it did!
I didn't get an opportunity to step behind the glass while you were setting up, so thank you for posting these pictures.
Background
28-03-2016, 11:52
Two matches shot with a GoPro over the weekend at Rhode Island:
https://youtu.be/3-Lj4L4g1o4
https://youtu.be/da9zwSaKZmw
Background
28-03-2016, 12:00
Question to any teams using a gopro for there "Spy Pole": How are you able to remove the camera info shown on the screen when using the gopro HDMI out function? We have found the battery, status and other info that is displayed on the screen useless. Not to mention it takes up screen real estate!
If you go to the camera settings (the wrench icon while switching modes) there will be a setup option and from there you can turn off the OSD.
vBulletin® v3.6.4, Copyright ©2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.