Questions Regarding Defense

[arushshah1]

In the final match of the Seneca event, we were focusing on playing defense. We were very successful in doing so in the qualification rounds, quarters and semifinals but one of the teams shot into the high goal from the outerworks so we couldn't touch them. Is there any way to play defense against such teams? Also, is it legal to block the high goal when a boulder is shot?

[skypatrol]

It's completely legal to block high goal shots, no issue there. However, if your robot isn't tall enough to block their shots, your best option would be to stop them from reaching the defenses while they're still in the neutral zone (stay between them and the defense).

[rich2202]

You can't touch an opposing robot if they have any part of their bumper in your Outer Works.

You can block a shot, but you are limited by the 54" height rule.

In addition to SkyPatrol's suggestion to keep them out of the Outer Works (from the NZ side), you can also keep them from trying to get a boulder.

Remember: Once they reach the Outer Works on the NZ side, you can't touch them anymore.

[arushshah1]

Is there anyway to play defense against a robot that can shoot in the high goal while it is touching the outerworks? Also, is it legal to cover a high goal on the tower?

[Anthony Galea]

Unless you have a tall robot that can block it or reach over them and block it without touching them, no. You cannot stop them from scoring. And how would you legally cover a high goal opening while staying in the height limit?

The protection from the outer works was intended as part of the rules to give a safe zone to teams.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Is there anyway to play defense against a robot that can shoot in the high goal while it is touching the outerworks?
Sure you just can't touch them while their bumpers are in the outerworks or its a foul.


Also, is it legal to cover a high goal on the tower?
Not the tower your opponents are trying to score on. You could cover your own during the last 20 secs, not sure how helpful that would be.

[rsisk]

You can block their shot by extending yourself up to 54 inches but you are in danger of getting a penalty if you touch them while they are in their outerworks.

You cannot block the high goal as you cannot extend above 54 inches.

[cbale2000]

Is there anyway to play defense against a robot that can shoot in the high goal while it is touching the outerworks? Also, is it legal to cover a high goal on the tower?

From what I understand of the rules, a robot touching the outerworks is protected from direct defense (contact) by an opposing robot, however, there's nothing saying a defending robot cannot sit in front of an attacking robot and block it's shots if you have something tall enough to interfere with its shooter (keep in mind height limits). Of course, you want to be out of the zone before the last 20 seconds to avoid penalties if the attacking robot touches the defender.

[Poseidon5817]

Is there anyway to play defense against a robot that can shoot in the high goal while it is touching the outerworks? Also, is it legal to cover a high goal on the tower?

You can't (in theory) contact a robot overhanging the outerworks. However, we got hit multiple times while shooting and the defender never got penalized. I wouldn't plan on this being OK. Also, you can't cover the high goal because it's out of the height limit. You could in the last 20 seconds, but it doesn't really serve a purpose.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Is there anyway to play defense against a robot that can shoot in the high goal while it is touching the outerworks?
Tall blocking robot? Tall blocking robot with a blocker that leans 15" outside their frame perimeter? It's dangerous depending on where they're shooting from. If they can drive forward and hit you while still in the outerworks, you can get penalties. Or maybe keep them from getting to the outerworks with a ball in the first place.
Also, is it legal to cover a high goal on the tower?No.G17 - ROBOT height, as measured when it’s resting normally on a flat floor, may not exceed 4 ft. 6 in. during the MATCH, except during the final twenty (20) seconds of TELEOP where there is no height limit when a ROBOT is fully contained by the opponent’s COURTYARD.

[CalTran]

Not the tower your opponents are trying to score on. You could cover your own during the last 20 secs, not sure how helpful that would be.

It's not about the score, it's about sending a message...

On topic though, you could max out at the full 46" and utilize a 15" extension to play a basketball-style defense where you just tower over a low bot shooter, but it'd require an incredible amount of finesse and driving prowess.

[Ozuru]

From what I understand of the rules, a robot touching the outerworks is protected from direct defense (contact) by an opposing robot, however, there's nothing saying a defending robot cannot sit in front of an attacking robot and block it's shots if you have something tall enough to interfere with its shooter (keep in mind height limits). Of course, you want to be out of the zone before the last 20 seconds to avoid penalties if the attacking robot touches the defender.

At competitions I was at, I saw this being classified as pinning.

[IronicDeadBird]

Alternatively you could get good at resource control, can't take shots without boulders. You also can't touch them while they are in the outerworks but you can try to stop them from getting there.

[Citrus Dad]

The proliferation of tall blockers in elims is for defending that shot. You don't necessarily need to block the actual shot--you can block their camera, which is often mounted lower.

[Citrus Dad]

Alternatively you could get good at resource control, can't take shots without boulders. You also can't touch them while they are in the outerworks but you can try to stop them from getting there.

Alternatively you can block their camera (which the better shooters all have.)

[GaryVoshol]

Merged two similar threads.

[bobl]

From QA today. If the robot being defending has a camera or some type of targeting sensor, you could be penalized under R9-C.

Question
Game Manual - Robot » Safety & Damage Prevention
Q953 Q. I understand that you cannot determine whether or not a device is legal sight unseen. I am asking this question because an LRI said it would be a violation of R9-C if we had a piece of lexan on our robot standing vertically to prevent a camera from seeing the reflective tape on the goals. I see no difference between having a sheet of lexan standing 48" and a robot standing 48". Please clarify what is meant by "interfering with remote sensing capabilities" in R9-C

A. A piece of plastic installed to prevent a camera from seeing the reflective tape on the goals is a device specifically designed or intended to interfere with another ROBOT'S sensing capabilities and is prohibited by R9 and the added language included in its Blue Box.

[Dinokaiz2]

I believe it's technically possible to block the high goal outside of the last 20 seconds by having a "jumping" mechanism. Your robot could jump into the high goal, thus blocking it.

[CalTran]

I believe it's technically possible to block the high goal outside of the last 20 seconds by having a "jumping" mechanism. Your robot could jump into the high goal, thus blocking it.

G12-D,F,G might stump you there.

[dv/dt]

An alternative strategy:
If your team is capable of capturing the tower, then focus on preventing the opponent from capturing. Focus on the 2nd robot that is scoring and stop them. I have yet to see a robot that can score 8 boulders from the outerworks by itself (but I hope to!). And grab any missed boulders and shove them into the secret passage so they have to cross the OW to get more.

[ejscribner]

Is shooting from the outer works legal? In other words, would shots from the outer works still count?

[CalTran]

Is shooting from the outer works legal? In other words, would shots from the outer works still count?

Er, yes? Why would it not be?

[Keefe2471]

Here is the Q and A about it (https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/Question/532/a-robot-carrying-a-boulder-crosses-a-defense-into-their-opponents-courtyard-they-then-move-back-such-that-a-part-of-its-bumpers-are-within-the-opponent-s-outer-works-while-their-robot-is-still-in)

Q. "A robot carrying a boulder crosses a defense into their opponents' courtyard. They then move back such that a part of its bumpers are within the opponent’s outer works while their robot is still in contact with the courtyard carpet. They attempt to line up a shot, but an opponent contacts them. Does the opponent incur a G43 penalty?"
2016-01-14 by FRC3322
A. This situation does demonstrate a violation of G43. Per G43: "A ROBOT is considered traversing the opponent’s OUTER WORKS if any part of its BUMPERS are within the opponent’s OUTER WORKS." Even if you are shooting a BOULDER, you would be protected by G43 if your BUMPERS are within the OUTER WORKS.

[Cam_Team 2619]

Another great way to play defense, besides just blocking their shots, is to bump the shooter around a bit. Just watch Semifinals 2 and 4 from the 2016 Midland District. Our alliance partner, 5222, would wait for the opponents to begin lining up for their shots and then bump them just enough to mess with their line of fire. This made it almost impossible for the others to make a shot.

[Citrus Dad]

An alternative strategy:
If your team is capable of capturing the tower, then focus on preventing the opponent from capturing. Focus on the 2nd robot that is scoring and stop them. I have yet to see a robot that can score 8 boulders from the outerworks by itself (but I hope to!). And grab any missed boulders and shove them into the secret passage so they have to cross the OW to get more.

We hit 8 boulders from the outworks at least once, and maybe twice at CVR. I think you'll see more of that in the next 3 weeks.

[Type]

So in general (sorry to change subject) defense, could you have a robot that reaches over the top of another robot? Like for example have like an arm that extends out so when the ball is fired it stops it from even truly leaving the other robot's frame perimeter.