How do I help my area move to districts?

[Ilovepineapples]

As requested by both cadandcookies (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1562139&postcount=18)and JABot67 (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1562136&postcount=17), this has been moved to a new thread.

I've titled the thead as "How do I help my area move to districts?", as that seems what the general question/topic discussion was about in the Districts 2017 (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146156) thread. I also believe it would be beneficial to the readers of ChiefDelphi to have a discussion on how you can help your area move to districts. Who do you contact in your area to join the RPC or train in Key Volunteers? How do you become involved at the planning level and what are some best practices to do this?

I've also included the original comments below.

Instead of helping to yell, help to get the work done. Join your regional planning committee. Recruit and train key volunteers. Approach other districts about the process involved in switching to the district system. Etc.

Sometimes trying to join the RPC or help train in key volunteers isn't as easy as it should be.

I was pm'd this document (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7WWp8Al8afdamdvSjJ3cjFHUlk/view?usp=sharing) by recent alumni in the state of Minnesota. I am told that it is given to all of the recent FIRST alumni attending a specific University by the RPC. I was also told that these students have all but stopped volunteering at FRC events in the state because they feel that they are not wanted/liked. The document seems fairly professional but I could understand how if it was presented in the wrong way it would burn some bridges.

[Carolyn_Grace]

As a Senior Volunteer Coordinator, I look for volunteers who are always willing to help. The people who arrive early to help set-up and who stay late to take-down the field often become great Key Volunteers later, because they are willing to help with the grunt work when there isn't an audience to watch.

This year we are also doing a lot of training for roles. We have three different people training for FTAA roles by helping in various positions around the field.

I've noticed that sometimes Key Volunteers become possessive of their roles, feeling like they spent so many years volunteering that they earn the right to the position, and they don't like when new people start training or moving their way up the ladder. It's important to remember that almost every area needs more volunteers, and just because someone new is training or being moved up, doesn't mean your key position is going away.

So, how do you help prepare your area for Districts?
1. Be willing to do the grunt work, like staying late and packing fields.
2. Be willing to train other people for roles, including your own.

[Knufire]

I was pm'd this document (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7WWp8Al8afdamdvSjJ3cjFHUlk/view?usp=sharing) by recent alumni in the state of Minnesota. I am told that it is given to all of the recent FIRST alumni attending a specific University by the RPC. I was also told that these students have all but stopped volunteering at FRC events in the state because they feel that they are not wanted/liked. The document seems fairly professional but I could understand how if it was presented in the wrong way it would burn some bridges.

As someone a bit more familiar with the Minnesota situation, this document is extremely concerning.

[Collin Fultz]

Who do you contact in your area to join the RPC or train in Key Volunteers? How do you become involved at the planning level and what are some best practices to do this?

What volunteer roles have you served in the past?

[Thad House]

I've noticed that sometimes Key Volunteers become possessive of their roles, feeling like they spent so many years volunteering that they earn the right to the position, and they don't like when new people start training or moving their way up the ladder. It's important to remember that almost every area needs more volunteers, and just because someone new is training or being moved up, doesn't mean your key position is going away.

This seems to be Minnesota's biggest problem. They're actively holding back districts by not training new key volunteers. There seems to be a major power struggle by MN FIRST and the volunteers that want to help. That document posted above basically proves that. I'm sure there are more volunteers that would want to help, but they are getting actively denied. It seems like CA has the same issue too, which is bad because MN and CA are the 2 regions that NEED to move to districts ASAP. Hearing stories from these areas that the Regional Committees are trying to implement gag orders on CD about those areas does not help either.

[bkahl]

I would be interested (and likely saddened) by the number of alumni that received this document and subsequently decided to stop their involvement in FIRST.

While I find a hard time believing that is the intent of the document, I also find it hard to imagine I wouldn't be turned off from continuing my involvement upon the receipt of this.

[RoboAlum]

Collin would you give some advice to us, we want to follow the way Indiana went to districts we have 50 teams now and have growth potential but all schools see are the outrageous dollar signs. As for me I was the head of the planning committee for our off-season event and we realized that by training our seniors and alumni in volunteer roles as well as getting help from the local Air Force base we were able to fill the volunteer positions quickly but our biggest downfall is getting more teams in our area that will do FRC.

[WCBC]

....

[FarmerJohn]

I feel that this document is worded wrong. I feel that I am somewhat close to the people that run Minnesota first and their intent is not to get people to stop volunteering. The main point of this document is trying to show the students that there is a lot of responsibility required in volunteering and you need to give it your all if can help out. Overall we need to remember that the coordinators in the state of Minnesota do a lot of work to keep FIRST running around here. They are also definitely not trying to stop the district model, but there are some major issues regarding the conversion to districts that put bluntly Minnesota is not ready for.

Regardless of the wording, this is saying at best, even with the benefit of the doubt, "We need meat to fill meat positions. Don't expect to be meaningful meat, because you're still just meat".

[DonRotolo]

duplicate

[DonRotolo]

The document seems fairly professional but I could understand how if it was presented in the wrong way it would burn some bridges.
There seems to be a major power struggle by MN FIRST and the volunteers that want to help. That document posted above basically proves that.
Maybe this thread is trolling, but I honestly do not see the document in a negative light. Basically, I see it as setting reasonable expectations for volunteers.

Face it: You're not going to be a LRI the first or second year you volunteer, particularly if you are under 21. But be an RI for 2 years, shadow the LRI one year, and then speak to your LRI and VC and see what they can do. If that's what you want, you can do it.

For all who are complaining: Tell us your experience volunteering and if you have volunteered in VIMS (for what/where/when?) and not been asked to attend.

I am not as twitchy about anonymous user accounts, but please understand that it is highly frowned upon, and not a sign of courage. You want change, stand up and name yourself.

[Alan Anderson]

I was pm'd this document (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7WWp8Al8afdamdvSjJ3cjFHUlk/view?usp=sharing)...

I don't see anything disturbing or off-putting about that document. It seems quite reasonable to me. It basically says not to think that you "deserve" a Key Volunteer position before you've demonstrated yourself, and suggests how you can go about doing that. Unless there's something else that people are being told beyond what it says, I do not understand why anyone would be upset by it.

[bkahl]

I don't see anything disturbing or off-putting about that document. It seems quite reasonable to me. It basically says not to think that you "deserve" a Key Volunteer position before you've demonstrated yourself, and suggests how you can go about doing that. Unless there's something else that people are being told beyond what it says, I do not understand why anyone would be upset by it.

Here's what was off-putting to me.

As a college student, I am unbelievably lucky to live 2 blocks from an FRC team. However, not every student has that opportunity. Their only lasting connection to FIRST may be volunteering.

Like I said in my post, I am not saying that this post is blatantly saying "We don't want you."

HOWEVER, what this document does do is make a college student like me feel not welcome. The sheer tone of this is terribly off-putting.

A region (especially one that is hoping/should be hoping to move to districts) should always be actively seeking volunteers. Beyond the active seeking of volunteers, they should be actively training new people to fill new jobs, as more events will require more key volunteers.

Furthermore, I have countless friends my age, or just older than me, that ARE key volunteers in their areas (FTAs, Refs, planning committee members). There is no reason to discourage a student from seeking a position like this. While not every college student is as great as Dave Givens (New England FIRST'S future), we can still contribute and (apparently contrary to popular belief) be leaders with key positions.

[JABot67]

As someone a bit more familiar with the Minnesota situation, this document is extremely concerning.

I would agree.

Maybe this thread is trolling, but I honestly do not see the document in a negative light.

The main interesting parts of this documents are the parts that explicitly lay out things that should be obvious.

DO live Gracious Professionalism. When at an event, volunteers should become a part of every team they interact with. If a team starts to frown while a volunteer is working with them, something needs to change! If there is particularly bad news or a difficult situation, get the appropriate Key Volunteer to help. When not at an event, be aware that everything you do reflects on FIRST. This is especially true with social media – Tweets, posts, or blogs can easily cause issues for volunteers. Stay positive, think about how your post will be perceived, and if there’s an issue you’re concerned about, look for the appropriate avenue to voice it – bring it up with the appropriate Key Volunteer or Volunteer Coordinator!

What is the reason for this paragraph? It seems to be a reference to specific events. It doesn't seem likely to me that this is a repeated problem that needs to be addressed in a blanket statement to all FRC alumni at a university.

So you screwed up...

Most volunteers are very unlikely to "screw up". Why bring this up with all college-aged volunteers? If you have a problem with only a few college-aged volunteers, perhaps it would be good to talk to them on an individual basis.

If you have a problem with more than a few of them, perhaps there is a bigger conflict.

It doesn't seem like there's good communication between the sides here. If this document has really left some alumni with a bad taste in their mouths, perhaps it would be good to make amends and create a culture of understanding.

[Pauline Tasci]

This document is extremely appalling and not in the spirit of FIRST.
As a region struggling to get volunteers, Minnesota should not discourage young adults from contributing.
In fact, young adults just out of FIRST are some of the most passionate and empathetic to the needs and challenges facing teams.

Volunteering as a college student and getting into those key roles is a great way to maintain FIRST alumni's connection with the community.

I'm two years out of high school and have key positions within FIRST California. I am honored to have those positions based on hard work, but the fact that my fellow alumni in Minnesota don't have the opportunity is disturbing.

With Minnesota moving to districts soon, the board should look into encouraging college students to become key volunteers.
I have friends from all over the country in college that are FTA's in Michigan, head refs in Canada, regional committee members in NE, and more.
These regions are doing well in the eyes of inspiring and maintaining teams, Minnesota should strive to do the same.

[Alan Anderson]

HOWEVER, what this document does do is make a college student like me feel not welcome. The sheer tone of this is terribly off-putting.

I honestly don't see anything there that gives a "not welcome" tone. On the contrary, it starts with the command DO volunteer often and energetically.

A region (especially one that is hoping/should be hoping to move to districts) should always be actively seeking volunteers. Beyond the active seeking of volunteers, they should be actively training new people to fill new jobs, as more events will require more key volunteers.

Isn't that what the document is about? It is a guide for how you should work toward becoming whatever kind of volunteer you want. It makes that explicit in the first paragraph.

Furthermore, I have countless friends my age, or just older than me, that ARE key volunteers in their areas (FTAs, Refs, planning committee members). There is no reason to discourage a student from seeking a position like this. While not every college student is a Dave Givens, we can (apparently contrary to popular belief) be good leaders and hold important positions.

Seriously, what's going on that I am not seeing? Every Key Volunteer I know was a "regular" volunteer for at least a couple of years first. That's what the document is saying. It isn't telling anyone not to aspire to a Key Volunteer position. What it's telling people is how to become a Key Volunteer.

[ATannahill]

I have to ask, how many volunteers see teams only when they are smiling?

As an inspector and ref (and a CSA, but I am unsure if the intended audience of the document would be eligible for that position) I have had to tell teams things that were at the very least disappointing. Things like "You received a foul because your robot extended too high in that match" or "Your bumpers do not meet the 8 inch requirement, you need to make them larger or build new ones". According to the document something needed to change after I made those statements because someone on the team frowned. I guess that means I screwed up and that puts my quest to be a LRI or Head Ref back one or two years of volunteering in a lower profile position. As important as the safety glasses table position is, to move someone there from inspecting will probably make them frown.

I know I am applying the document somewhat harshly, but for someone who has never been a volunteer, I would be scared to tell a team any bad news.

[PayneTrain]

I honestly don't see anything there that gives a "not welcome" tone. On the contrary, it starts with the command DO volunteer often and energetically.



Isn't that what the document is about? It is a guide for how you should work toward becoming whatever kind of volunteer you want. It makes that explicit in the first paragraph.



Seriously, what's going on that I am not seeing? Every Key Volunteer I know was a "regular" volunteer for at least a couple of years first. That's what the document is saying. It isn't telling anyone not to aspire to a Key Volunteer position. What it's telling people is how to become a Key Volunteer.

I tell ya, kids these days...

Wait, crap.

[Ilovepineapples]

What volunteer roles have you served in the past?

Volunteer #1: I am a volunteer who has been trained in a key position and served as a diligent volunteer spending hundreds of dollars in hotel costs who is now told I can only run safety glasses and the practice field. Without anyone telling me what changed or why I can't serve in my key position.

Volunteer #2: I'm an alumni that can run and coordinate a district event when I'm at college but when I travel home I can only run safety glasses.

Volunteer #3: I'm a graduate from a FRC team in Minnesota who has volunteered as field reset for four years after graduating but still isn't given any other field position no matter how many times I ask.

Volunteer #4: I'm a volunteer who registered to help queue but I'm told there are not any positions available, followed by an email to coaches the next day requesting more queuers to volunteer.

Volunteer #5: I am a volunteer who has been a robot inspector since graduating high school 6 years ago. In Minnesota I have expressed interest in FTAing, CSAing and score keeping but have never been assigned. I then am offered spots as a FTA or CSA in other areas around the United States.

Volunteer #6: As a student, I was spoken to about my social media posts, as they were showing MN FIRST in a bad light and told to delete what I posted. Now I've only been offered spots as Field Reset.

This is a small sampling of volunteer stories from the Minnesota Regionals.

[Knufire]

I don't see anything disturbing or off-putting about that document. It seems quite reasonable to me. It basically says not to think that you "deserve" a Key Volunteer position before you've demonstrated yourself, and suggests how you can go about doing that. Unless there's something else that people are being told beyond what it says, I do not understand why anyone would be upset by it.

It's a combination of what this document says and what is actually happening with the intended audience of this document (which I assume is the GOFIRST group at the University of Minnesota).

There's been friction between the alumni of MN FIRST and the RPC. A big point of contention here is the current double-regional event format of Minnesota. The young alumni want to switch to districts, and want to get involved and start the conversation and the planning required to get there. Everyone is aware this is a big undertaking that requires several years to implement right. However, the leadership in MN is very attached to their double regional format, knowing they run the "biggest and best" regionals in the country. The alumni want to get their teams more bang for their buck, but the RPC doesn't want to lose the media attention for FIRST that these events gain. Of course, on top of this, there are the normal concerns that everyone has with transitioning to districts (finding venues, volunteers, etc). Due to all of these factors, it appears that the RPC believes their current system to be superior, and therefore does not want to pursue transitioning to districts at all.

Like Bailey said, one of the few ways that college students can reasonably stay involved in FRC is volunteering. However, students who sign up to volunteer are repeatedly being assigned to more menial, untrained roles or just being told that they're not needed. A dear friend of mine (who already had previous experience volunteering as an inspector in New England), was assigned to the practice field. When she showed up to the regional, the volunteer desk was empty. After tracking one of the event staff down, she was told they had enough volunteers for that day, and she should come back tomorrow.

Honestly, the purpose of this document seems to be to deter any of these alumni from believing that they could make a real difference in the direction Minnesota is heading. The overall message seems to be this; "Play by our rules, listen to everything we say, and don't say anything about it."

Now this may sound cynical, but this is how I'm reading this document given the situation. Each number refers to the subsequent DO and DONT in the letter.

1. If you really care about FRC, you'll do whatever volunteer position we assign you to, regardless of what you aspire to be.

2. This seems to be specifically targeting the fact that college students will often have class on Wednesday and Thursday.

3. Do whatever the RPC and existing KVs tell you to do.

4. Don't talk about any of this publicly, no matter how discontent you are.

5. If you do volunteer, always do what your Key Volunteer superior says.

6. Don't expect to get a more important volunteering position anytime soon.

7. Re 6: Probably at least 6+ years before you're a key volunteer.

8. Now this is the real kicker. Many of these disgruntled alumni have been switching to volunteering for FLL and FTC events, and have been much happier since. A different nonprofit organization, High Tech Kids, is the FIRST partner for FLL and FTC in Minnesota. Many young alumni agree this group is more effectively run. There have been talks of HTH and MN FIRST merging, as MN FIRST does not have nonprofit status necessary for MN to switch to districts. However, there's rumors that this merger is halted due to conflicting opinions over who would actually be in charge after the merger. This paragraph is basically saying "Don't expect MN FIRST to be like High Tech Kids."

9. Most of the kids who want to continue supporting FRC are enthusiastic about the program. This is basically telling these kids that they need to tone down their enthusiasm if they want to volunteer?

10. So you screwed up...
This seems pretty clear to me. If you don't play by the rules, you're not getting any volunteer positions past field reset or practice field.


Yes, a lot of what is in this document is generally good advice for new volunteers. However, given the scenario, this basically seems like a letter from the dictatorship telling the people to not challenge their authority.

[Collin Fultz]

I am a volunteer who has been trained in a key position and served as a diligent volunteer spending hundreds of dollars in hotel costs who is now told I can only run safety glasses and the practice field. Without anyone telling me what changed or why I can't serve in my key position.

I'm an alumni that can run and coordinate a district event when I'm at college but when I travel home I can only run safety glasses.

I'm a graduate from a FRC team in Minnesota who has volunteered as field reset for four years after graduating but still isn't given any other field position no matter how many times I ask.

I'm a volunteer who registered to help queue but I'm told there are not any positions available, followed by an email to coaches the next day requesting more queuers to volunteer.

I am a volunteer how has been a robot inspector since graduating high school 6 years ago. In Minnesota I have expressed interest in FTAing, CSAing and score keeping but have never been assigned. I then am offered spots as a FTA or CSA in other areas around the United States.

As a student, I was spoken to about my social media posts, as they were showing MN FIRST in a bad light and told to delete what I posted. Now I've only been offered spots as Field Reset.

This is a small sampling of volunteer stories from the Minnesota Regionals.

I am very confused. I feel like I asked a fairly easy question to answer. The answer will help form my answer to the original question.

Perhaps I was asking too much from an account that uses a fake name?

[Collin Fultz]

Collin would you give some advice to us, we want to follow the way Indiana went to districts we have 50 teams now and have growth potential but all schools see are the outrageous dollar signs. As for me I was the head of the planning committee for our off-season event and we realized that by training our seniors and alumni in volunteer roles as well as getting help from the local Air Force base we were able to fill the volunteer positions quickly but our biggest downfall is getting more teams in our area that will do FRC.

Hi - Great question. You're absolutely right that the investment in FRC can be overwhelming to some.

Your experiences are a great start. Hopefully your off-season event was a success.

Perhaps the largest initial hurdle is a state (or district) wide 501c3 non-profit who can act as the "Headquarters" for FIRST in that state. In Indiana, that non-profit is IndianaFIRST. FIRST HQ signs a Memorandum of Understanding with that organization, who then executes FRC in the area.

That non-profit has to show FIRST that I can represent the interests of teams in the entire area, as well as fundraise enough to support events and a local staff. How large that staff is varies by area.

My suggested first step: Start holding district information sessions at your regionals and off-season events. Listen to feedback from people. Shockingly, most people involved in FIRST are not on Chief Delphi. Odds are that there are many in your area that don't understand what "Districts" are. Also, be prepared for pushback. There will be some who do not see this as a net positive for them. As an example, in Indiana, many of the teams around the Chicago area were used to going to the Midwest Regional as their "home" regional. So the whole "this will save travel costs" argument didn't really apply to them. We, as IndianaFIRST, need to take that into consideration.

Please, continue to ask good questions. There are lots of people here to help.

Thank you!

-CF

[rzoeller]

I don't see anything disturbing or off-putting about that document. It seems quite reasonable to me. It basically says not to think that you "deserve" a Key Volunteer position before you've demonstrated yourself, and suggests how you can go about doing that. Unless there's something else that people are being told beyond what it says, I do not understand why anyone would be upset by it.

I'd like to start by stating that these are my own thoughts and opinions, and do not necessarily reflect the views of any groups I am or have been a part of.

I was a student at the presentation at which this document was distributed. In my opinion, the document itself is not inherently negative and would not, on its own, make me feel unwelcome or uncomfortable volunteering as a part of Minnesota FIRST. That being said, the context in which the document was distributed made me feel uncomfortable and has discouraged me from seeking volunteer roles as an official regional volunteer.

As a student who attended the presentation, I was surprised for several reasons. The meeting at which the presentation occurred was part of a regular sequence of meetings in which university faculty and outside corporate employees give talks about their work. That particular meeting had been advertised as a "an inside look into life as an engineer and success after college from *speaker name redacted* who works at *company name redacted*", and was something I had genuinely looked forward to based on the extensive industry experience the speaker seemed to have and my interest in the company they work at. Unfortunately, once the meeting began it quickly changed focus to discussing FIRST volunteer feedback.

Overall, the demeanor of the meeting felt very negative towards volunteers, specifically college age students. Perhaps I misunderstood the speaker's intentions, but as someone who was on an MN FRC team in high school and was looking forward to potentially volunteering at a Minnesota regional, the impression that I left with was that the authors of the document felt college students were likely to screw up and should not be trusted with positions of responsibility. There was a strong emphasis (at least in my opinion) that we were unable to separate our volunteering from our past connections in FIRST, and that we shouldn't expect to be given any meaningful positions due to our age.

I hope to volunteer for FIRST in the future, but unless things change, I doubt it will be in Minnesota.

[Christopher149]

I am a volunteer who has been trained in a key position and served as a diligent volunteer spending hundreds of dollars in hotel costs who is now told I can only run safety glasses and the practice field. Without anyone telling me what changed or why I can't serve in my key position.

I'm an alumni that can run and coordinate a district event when I'm at college but when I travel home I can only run safety glasses.

I'm a graduate from a FRC team in Minnesota who has volunteered as field reset for four years after graduating but still isn't given any other field position no matter how many times I ask.

I'm a volunteer who registered to help queue but I'm told there are not any positions available, followed by an email to coaches the next day requesting more queuers to volunteer.

I am a volunteer how has been a robot inspector since graduating high school 6 years ago. In Minnesota I have expressed interest in FTAing, CSAing and score keeping but have never been assigned. I then am offered spots as a FTA or CSA in other areas around the United States.

As a student, I was spoken to about my social media posts, as they were showing MN FIRST in a bad light and told to delete what I posted. Now I've only been offered spots as Field Reset.

This is a small sampling of volunteer stories from the Minnesota Regionals.

I'm in Michigan and am a college senior (you know all the warnings to freshman about overextending? the warning really should be to seniors). I'm lead mentor for 1 FTC team and 1 FRC team, and was head ref at an FLL event and ref at FTC state champs. If I wasn't so busy right now, I would strongly consider being an FRC ref as well (and probably will next year).

From my same university is another senior who is now an FTA (and the only one based in the UP). Other college students there have been CSAs, lead queuer, defense coordinator, head ref, emcee/game announcer, and maybe safety adviser?

[PayneTrain]

What volunteer roles have you served in the past?

I am a volunteer who has been trained in a key position and served as a diligent volunteer spending hundreds of dollars in hotel costs who is now told I can only run safety glasses and the practice field. Without anyone telling me what changed or why I can't serve in my key position.

I'm an alumni that can run and coordinate a district event when I'm at college but when I travel home I can only run safety glasses.

I'm a graduate from a FRC team in Minnesota who has volunteered as field reset for four years after graduating but still isn't given any other field position no matter how many times I ask.

I'm a volunteer who registered to help queue but I'm told there are not any positions available, followed by an email to coaches the next day requesting more queuers to volunteer.

I am a volunteer how has been a robot inspector since graduating high school 6 years ago. In Minnesota I have expressed interest in FTAing, CSAing and score keeping but have never been assigned. I then am offered spots as a FTA or CSA in other areas around the United States.

As a student, I was spoken to about my social media posts, as they were showing MN FIRST in a bad light and told to delete what I posted. Now I've only been offered spots as Field Reset.

This is a small sampling of volunteer stories from the Minnesota Regionals.


Looks like this person was a robot inspector for many years in the past (bold), wants to be a queuer or something else if they can't be an RI (underlined), but has grown weary of the scenario they have to deal with in terms of the what the RPC in Minnesota "operates" (under the guidance of HQ as they are not an independent NPC).

I don't operate anywhere close to Minnesota and I will not speculate what may or may not be happening but if it looks like x and smells like x, I don't want to see if it tastes like x.

[Nate Laverdure]

I am very confused. I feel like I asked a fairly easy question to answer. The answer will help form my answer to the original question.
Can you suspend your disbelief and assume that these are independent stories that correspond to some number of actual people? Is it possible to form an answer then?

[PayneTrain]

Can you suspend your disbelief and assume that these are independent stories that correspond to some number of actual people? Is it possible to form an answer then?

You know how in real life you have a conversation with someone but they don't listen to you, but just hear enough to make some counterpoint that is just supposed to put you on your heels?

It's really annoying in all media of communication but it is especially silly on the internet when some sort of on demand text or audiovisual conversation can be guided at will.

[Ian Curtis]

Maybe this thread is trolling, but I honestly do not see the document in a negative light. Basically, I see it as setting reasonable expectations for volunteers.

Don,

I agree with you that most everything in that document is technically correct and I'm sure it was well intentioned attempt to level set expectations.

However, I think it also comes across as tone deaf. Do you sell FRC to incoming freshman by saying, "Well, our robot is probably going to be a box on wheels for a few years, and you won't get a chance to do any of the limited cool work on the team until maybe your senior year."?

[AlecMataloni]

I am a volunteer who has been trained in a key position and served as a diligent volunteer spending hundreds of dollars in hotel costs who is now told I can only run safety glasses and the practice field. Without anyone telling me what changed or why I can't serve in my key position.

I'm an alumni that can run and coordinate a district event when I'm at college but when I travel home I can only run safety glasses.

I'm a graduate from a FRC team in Minnesota who has volunteered as field reset for four years after graduating but still isn't given any other field position no matter how many times I ask.

I'm a volunteer who registered to help queue but I'm told there are not any positions available, followed by an email to coaches the next day requesting more queuers to volunteer.

I am a volunteer how has been a robot inspector since graduating high school 6 years ago. In Minnesota I have expressed interest in FTAing, CSAing and score keeping but have never been assigned. I then am offered spots as a FTA or CSA in other areas around the United States.

As a student, I was spoken to about my social media posts, as they were showing MN FIRST in a bad light and told to delete what I posted. Now I've only been offered spots as Field Reset.

This is a small sampling of volunteer stories from the Minnesota Regionals.

All of these stories are very troubling.

I hope that enough complaints from alumni in the state will change the attitudes of these individuals running the show up in MN. Maybe the "Rulers" of MN FIRST will realize they're shooting themselves in the foot by treating prospective volunteers this way.

[angelah]

In fact, young adults just out of FIRST are some of the most passionate and empathetic to the needs and challenges facing teams.

Yes, usually the kindest to students, and also professional and competent. It's awesome to see some of these college students in Michigan excelling in key positions!

[IronicDeadBird]

I'm not surprised that there are a lot of people upset with what position they got as a volunteer. In the end though someone is always going be upset because there are only a limited number of positions.
However a few of the details where volunteers are being left in the dark with information is rather troubling...

[Ilovepineapples]

I am very confused. I feel like I asked a fairly easy question to answer. The answer will help form my answer to the original question.

Perhaps I was asking too much from an account that uses a fake name?

Collin, I apologize if I caused you any confusion. Each paragraph is an individual account from a different volunteer, if you have additional questions or clarifications feel free to PM me.

[PayneTrain]

Collin, I apologize if I caused you any confusion. Each paragraph is an individual account from a different volunteer, if you have additional questions or clarifications feel free to PM me.

Ok now I'm with Collin and a little confused...

[thegnat05]

Here's what was off-putting to me.

As a college student, I am unbelievably lucky to live 2 blocks from an FRC team. However, not every student has that opportunity. Their only lasting connection to FIRST may be volunteering.



I can attest to this. I go to college in Western Kentucky and there are 0 active FIRST teams anywhere in my area, much less a competition. By happenstance I will be in town for North Star this year and was very excited as this will be my only contribution to FIRST this year. After reading all of the volunteer positions my top request was to be a judge assistant. I did FRC all 4 years of high school and was the head captain of my team. I know the in's and out's of the awards given and figured this would be the perfect entry-level position. I eventually got assigned flags (MC assistant) which I am more than happy to do and completely understand that the judge assistant roll might have already been filled by someone who has done it in the past. However, it would be nice upfront to be told that first year volunteers/college students can only apply for certain positions. Advertising a role as "no prior volunteer experience needed" when you want someone with experience to do it seems misleading to me.

Volunteer #1: I am a volunteer who has been trained in a key position and served as a diligent volunteer spending hundreds of dollars in hotel costs who is now told I can only run safety glasses and the practice field. Without anyone telling me what changed or why I can't serve in my key position.

Volunteer #2: I'm an alumni that can run and coordinate a district event when I'm at college but when I travel home I can only run safety glasses.

Volunteer #3: I'm a graduate from a FRC team in Minnesota who has volunteered as field reset for four years after graduating but still isn't given any other field position no matter how many times I ask.

Volunteer #4: I'm a volunteer who registered to help queue but I'm told there are not any positions available, followed by an email to coaches the next day requesting more queuers to volunteer.

Volunteer #5: I am a volunteer who has been a robot inspector since graduating high school 6 years ago. In Minnesota I have expressed interest in FTAing, CSAing and score keeping but have never been assigned. I then am offered spots as a FTA or CSA in other areas around the United States.

Volunteer #6: As a student, I was spoken to about my social media posts, as they were showing MN FIRST in a bad light and told to delete what I posted. Now I've only been offered spots as Field Reset.

This is a small sampling of volunteer stories from the Minnesota Regionals.

Call me a drama queen but these are all deeply saddening. No one should ever feel demoted, degraded, or left out in an activity that is suppose to be for everyone. As a volunteer you are essentially giving a piece of yourself to FIRST. There are a million other things these people, especially college kids, could be doing on the weekends but they are choosing to donate their time and efforts (and in some cases money) to FRC. The fact that there are so many of these stories depicting negative volunteer experiences breaks my heart. I hope things change soon and/or they let the public know what we can do to help.

[Akash Rastogi]

Maybe this thread is trolling, but I honestly do not see the document in a negative light. Basically, I see it as setting reasonable expectations for volunteers.

Face it: You're not going to be a LRI the first or second year you volunteer, particularly if you are under 21. But be an RI for 2 years, shadow the LRI one year, and then speak to your LRI and VC and see what they can do. If that's what you want, you can do it.

For all who are complaining: Tell us your experience volunteering and if you have volunteered in VIMS (for what/where/when?) and not been asked to attend.

I am not as twitchy about anonymous user accounts, but please understand that it is highly frowned upon, and not a sign of courage. You want change, stand up and name yourself.

I don't see anything disturbing or off-putting about that document. It seems quite reasonable to me. It basically says not to think that you "deserve" a Key Volunteer position before you've demonstrated yourself, and suggests how you can go about doing that. Unless there's something else that people are being told beyond what it says, I do not understand why anyone would be upset by it.

Are...are you guys serious?

Don and Alan, I respect you guys tremendously, but I fail to see how you don't think this document would leave a sour taste in the mouths of young mentors and COLLEGE GRADS.

This document explains so much about why mentors in MN are always telling me that the key issue in MN not going to districts is a lack of good volunteers. Even more experienced mentors have brought up this issue.

If you're going to call out someone because of their age, I can do the same thing and say that older mentors can't see as well, or maybe they can't hear as well. The age has nothing to do with the volunteer experience, but if we're going to use age, why not say ridiculous things?

It's like a 50 year old versus a 22 year old interviewing for the same job, neither of them have experience in it, but the 22 year old is told that they're just not going to be good at the job because of their age.

By the way - this is one of the few times I don't give a crap about a fake account. This document is real, that is literally all that matters. Stop giving the OP crap for not posting real names because clearly Minnesota is a little screwed up and they would probably be ripped apart within their community for raising this issue.

[gblake]

...
There are lots of ways to help your area move to districts.

One of them isn't using a bogus CD account to create a passive aggressive thread that has a superficially laudable intention, but is actually used to winge about not getting to what you want to do, and to attempt to "turn someone in".

Sit down with whoever you need to meet with and talk.
- Ask them to write down any complaints they (or anyone else) have about you (use actual paper).
- You write down any complaints you have about them (and about anyone they represent).
- Bring those lists to your meeting.
- Do not show them to each other, but instead tear them up in front of each other and toss them into the trash.
- Get down to work.
- Start with small, short assignments.
- After establishing a good rapport with each other, after successfully completing (together) the several small assignments, and after becoming a team instead of adversaries; start working (together) on bigger, longer-term projects.

Nothing will get better so long as people are glaring at each other (or sniping at each other on CD) instead of talking to each other.

Along the way, younger folks (like college students) might be surprised to notice (when they participate in the nitty-gritty, stupifyingly boring, detailed planning necessary to prepare for and implement something like an FRC District) that the District implementation plans extend past their expected graduation dates.

If Minnesota college students today are like Kentucky college students were, they scatter to the four corners of the Earth after they graduate. That isn't something that can be ignored by anyone involved in putting a sustainable District organization in place.

Blake

[Lil' Lavery]

This thread is asking how to help move an area to the district format.

The content of this thread is mostly hearsay and bickering regarding the wording of a letter. Very little productive dialogue has taken place.

[Akash Rastogi]

This thread is asking how to help move an area to the district format.

The content of this thread is mostly hearsay and bickering regarding the wording of a letter. Very little productive dialogue has taken place.

...Referring to a letter that was sent out isn't hearsay though...

[Pauline Tasci]

This thread is asking how to help move an area to the district format.

The content of this thread is mostly hearsay and bickering regarding the wording of a letter. Very little productive dialogue has taken place.

The reason this thread was started was this account is claiming they can not have the proper key volunteers fill district roles in Minnesota because college students are not allowed to take these roles on. These students are the basis of many great district regions, like FiM, where most of their FTA's are college students, or like Canada, where a lot of refs are college aged, and all other district regions (NE, PNW, ect)

I think you should take a look at Rahul's post (Knufire) on this thread for a better understanding of the whole situation before claiming this thread is counterproductive.

This thread is literally pointing out a key problem into why a region can not change to districts.

[MikLast]

By the way - this is one of the few times I don't give a crap about a fake account. This document is real, that is literally all that matters. Stop giving the OP crap for not posting real names because clearly Minnesota is a little screwed up and they would probably be ripped apart within their community for raising this issue.
If anything i read about MN is true, I would also be using a fake account. Too much drama to associate myself with that could blow up in your face.

[Ginger Power]

As a college student volunteering in Minnesota I feel the need to post. I don't personally have an issue with the document that the OP has linked. It doesn't (and didn't when I initially read it) push me away from volunteering.

Volunteer Experience: I've been a Robot Inspector for 2 years and I've inspected at 3 official events, soon to be 4, and 2 off-season events. I've also coordinated 30+ college volunteers at the Duluth Regionals earlier this year, and will be doing the same at Minneapolis.

Speaking for all of my volunteers, I can say they had a very positive experience at the Duluth Regionals. The consensous that I get is that basically all of them will be returning next year.

As college volunteers we served in many different volunteer roles: 4 CSA's, 4-5 Robot Inspectors, 3 Referees, a bunch of queuers including a Lead Queuer, and also people working the safety glasses station. There are some who wish to try different volunteer roles next year, and there are some who want to "level up" and become a Key Volunteer in their respective volunteer role. We are comfortable with the knowledge that we can't start at the top.

As for districts, I'd love to see them happen. I've been fairly vocal about that on this site. I'd love to see it happen soon. I think the only way for that to happen is to increase the transparency of the decision making process at MN FIRST, so people know who is making decisions, why they are making them, and more importantly, so the people making decisions can get educated feedback from the people and teams they are serving. Right now, I'd be willing to bet that over half the people involved with FIRST in the state of Minnesota couldn't tell you what a district is, and what the pros and cons for districts are. The general FIRST participant in Minnesota is very uneducated on the topics that we argue regularly, and that is a large part of the problem.

If there is transparency in the process, things will operate better.

[PayneTrain]

this is just a placeholder for a lazy and pontificating post about the status quo being just fine and the current scenario being incapable of setting off any alarm bells in the heads of any properly enlightened person, please move along

[Knufire]

As college volunteers we served in many different volunteer roles: 4 CSA's, 4-5 Robot Inspectors, 3 Referees, a bunch of queuers including a Lead Queuer, and also people working the safety glasses station.

How many of these volunteers were part of Bison Robotics (North Dakota State University) versus GOFIRST (University of Minnesota)?

[bkahl]

This thread is asking how to help move an area to the district format.

The content of this thread is mostly hearsay and bickering regarding the wording of a letter. Very little productive dialogue has taken place.

Dude, your post was probably the least productive of them all.

The thread is discussing potential issues holding back MN FIRST from districts, exactly what the OP wanted. What else do you want to make this more productive?

[Ginger Power]

How many of these volunteers were part of Bison Robotics (North Dakota State University) versus GOFIRST (University of Minnesota)?

All of the volunteers that I coordinated were from Bison Robotics, as I am the Service Coordinator for Bison Robotics. There were also a couple of members of GOFIRST at the events, but I had nothing to do with that.

[Lil' Lavery]

Dude, your post was probably the least productive of them all.

The thread is discussing potential issues holding back MN FIRST from districts, exactly what the OP wanted. What else do you want to make this more productive?

Discussion generally involves two sides. If there was an honest attempt an engaging the issues preventing Minnesota from transitioning, that would be one thing. Rather, this thread is largely piling on against an absent second party. There is little point in continuing to pour on hearsay and anonymous bashing until MN FIRST gives their side of the story.


More generally, while the OP linked a document specific to Minnesota, this thread is not simply about Minnesota. My post, quoted in the OP, is about districts in general. There is a potential use for this thread regarding what logistics are involved in the creation and administration of districts, and how concerned teams and individuals can assist in the transition from a regional system to a district system. That is the type of productive conversation that should be happening. Mud slinging is not productive.

[gblake]

A couple more cents from me:

There is way too much fussing in this thread about what any one volunteer is/isn't happy to do in any one year, and not nearly enough discussion about both the (really large) number of important roles in a District, and how to consistently fill all of those important roles year after year, for the next decade and beyond.

Blake

[Pauline Tasci]

A couple more cents from me:

There is way too much fussing in this thread about what any one volunteer is/isn't happy to do in any one year, and not nearly enough discussion about both the (really large) number of important roles in a District, and how to consistently fill all of those important roles year after year, for a decade or longer.

Blake

The key to running any event is making sure you're not incredibly condescending to one of your largest sources of volunteers.
Key volunteers are not those that need to be in the positions for "decades." To have a sustainable program you need to constantly be training people and have them fill necessary positions. Districts are about sustainability, and with that you cannot rely on people who you expect to always be there, but have enough people trained in those roles that many people could fill in key roles. The biggest market for that is FIRST alumni.

[bkahl]

A couple more cents from me:

There is way too much fussing in this thread about what any one volunteer is/isn't happy to do in any one year, and not nearly enough discussion about both the (really large) number of important roles in a District, and how to consistently fill all of those important roles year after year, for a decade or longer.

Blake

I think I touched upon this earlier. One of the key things the document seems to be discouraging (in my PERSONAL opinion), is the active training of new people to fill roles, especially key roles. The document seems to state that if you want a key position, or one with responsibility, you have to wait your turn.

Maybe the following is more along the lines of what Sean is looking for in this thread.

As a participant in the districts system for my third year now, I have seen new key volunteers with every event I have gone too. This is what is key to the expansion into the District Model.

In New England, we grew from 5 Regionals to 10 Districts and a District Championship, more than doubling the events. This obviously requires more volunteers. The first year was rough on the volunteers, many people going weeks in a row in their positions because no one in their area/state else knew them. Now, I have seen new referees, FTAs, Head Referees, Inspectors, and Committee members. This new generation of volunteers is the future of the region, trained and mentored by the key volunteers before them. This is pleasing, especially since many of these new volunteers are friends and peers.

Back to what i find concerning.... The document linked provides a negative shadow over exactly what I have described as one of the main reasons I think New England Districts are beginning to operate so well; a new young generation of volunteers helping to run and sustain our region. If Minnesota can open its doors to something like this, I think the region will greatly benefit from it. If they begin training this new set of volunteers now in more positions, a District Model transition will go very smooth, with enough volunteers to help run the necessary events.

[Basel A]

Face it: You're not going to be a LRI the first or second year you volunteer, particularly if you are under 21. But be an RI for 2 years, shadow the LRI one year, and then speak to your LRI and VC and see what they can do. If that's what you want, you can do it.

Over here in Michigan we currently have 5 college student FTAs, including a sophomore and a junior, both under 21. This year two college students were asked to be an EC (they declined on account of being busy college students). College students have been CSAs, I can think of at least one who's been a HR, MCs.. I think we're doing pretty okay. It's ridiculous to use age as a big negative factor in volunteers, especially when you complain at the same time of too few volunteers.

[gblake]

The key to running any event is making sure you're not incredibly condescending to one of your largest sources of volunteers.
Key volunteers are not those that need to be in the positions for "decades." To have a sustainable program you need to constantly be training people and have them fill necessary positions. Districts are about sustainability, and with that you cannot rely on people who you expect to always be there, but have enough people trained in those roles that many people could fill in key roles. The biggest market for that is FIRST alumni.
I understand all of that. It doesn't contradict what I wrote in either of my earlier posts.

Also, "how to consistently fill all of those important roles year after year, for the next decade and beyond." doesn't mean the same thing as having one person in any given role "for 'decades'".

My consistent point is, service *before* self.

Blake

[Munchskull]

MN should start by giving their volunteers the respect they deserve. Odds are that if you have a volunteer that is college aged, they themselves are FRC/FTC alumni. If they are coming back it means they love FIRST. Other regions and districts thrive from their alumni no reason MN can't.

When it comes to the argument that they will not have enough volunteers, I find that plain wrong. Granted I do not live in MN nor have ever been to the events, but from my experience, if you have the event, volunteera will come. Here in PNW I know that we have had students from teams competing at the event take volunteer positions such as field reset and robot queing. Local teams will help with setup and takedown.

Let the college age students handle key roles at district events. They are adults, MN should treat them like it. The only reason I can imagine that MN would not have enough volunteers for districta is because letters like this are driving them away.

[gblake]

I think I touched upon this earlier. One of the key things the document seems to be discouraging (in my PERSONAL opinion), is the active training of new people to fill roles, especially key roles. The document seems to state that if you want a key position, or one with responsibility, you have to wait your turn.

Maybe the following is more along the lines of what Sean is looking for in this thread.

As a participant in the districts system for my third year now, I have seen new key volunteers with every event I have gone too. This is what is key to the expansion into the District Model.

In New England, we grew from 5 Regionals to 10 Districts and a District Championship, more than doubling the events. This obviously requires more volunteers. The first year was rough on the volunteers, many people going weeks in a row in their positions because no one in their area/state else knew them. Now, I have seen more referees, FTAs, Head Referees, Inspectors, and Committee members as we progress further into the system. This is pleasing, especially since many of these new volunteers are friends and peers.

Back to what i find concerning.... The document linked provides a negative shadow over exactly what I have described as one of the main reasons I think New England Districts are beginning to operate so well; a new young generation of volunteers helping to run and sustain our region. If Minnesota can open its doors to something like this, I think the region will greatly benefit from it. If they begin training this new set of volunteers now in more positions, a District Model transition will go very smooth, with enough volunteers to help run the necessary events.
I wrote that folks should be discussing how to consistently fill important roles, instead of talking about themselves.

I wrote that folks who feel they are in different camps need to flush the past, and start talking to each other (not sniping in forums).

Are you disagreeing with those two suggestions?

Blake

[bkahl]

I wrote that folks should be discussing how to consistently fill important roles.

I wrote that folks who feel they are in different camps need to flush the past and start talking to each other (not sniping in forums).

Are you disagreeing with those two suggestions?

Blake

Nope, just trying to steer away from hearsay and get to productive discussion on how to bring MN FIRST to the next level.

I believe you and I are in agreement that something has to be done in order to fill the requirement of more volunteer positions in a district model. I suggested trying out what my region has done, and others like FIM, which is training a new generation of volunteers.

This new generation is ready to go and even organized into their own organization at GO FIRST. There does, however, seem to be some concerning relationships between them and their region, as shown by the letter linked by the OP.

[Ryan Dognaux]

Recruiting Volunteers 101 - What Not To Do -

Include a section in your recruitment material called "So you screwed up..."

Who thought that was a good idea? :confused:

Also - Where else are people supposed to bring up issues they've encountered from their personal experiences in Minnesota when they don't feel they're being taken seriously? Some other public FIRST forum made for discussing these issues? (I'd love to see a post on r/FRC (https://www.reddit.com/r/frc) on this.) Nah let's just not talk about anything and keep everything as-is because that's how FIRST grows & improves right?

[gblake]

MN should start by giving their volunteers the respect they deserve. .... Who is this "MN" you speak of, if not a group of hard-working and dedicated, in-it-for-the-long-haul volunteers?

Was the "MN" in your post maybe the OP, and the other Minnesota folks who were annoyed by the roles they filled or didn't fill at events? Were they the group you called "MN"? Is that group failing to give other volunteers the respect those other volunteers deserve?

Bottom line: When you think about things from more than one viewpoint, sometimes you notice interesting stuff.

Blake

[IronicDeadBird]

Recruiting Volunteers 101 - What Not To Do -

Include a section in your recruitment material called "So you screwed up..."

Who thought that was a good idea? :confused:



Showing a tolerance for mistakes is something that you should do when trying to get people to participate in a role with responsibility.
Albeit the header was poorly phrased, that section could have just been titled "accidents" or something.
The idea was fine the execution of it was horrible.

[bkahl]

Albeit the ENTIRE LETTER was poorly phrased

FTFY

[Ryan Dognaux]

Showing a tolerance for mistakes is something that you should do when trying to get people to participate in a role with responsibility.
Albeit the header was poorly phrased, that section could have just been titled "accidents" or something.
The idea was fine the execution of it was horrible.

I totally agree that tolerance is absolutely necessary. I've managed our volunteers for the past 2 years at the FRC off-season event that I founded and always make it a point to thank them all for giving up their personal time to help make our event run smoothly. None of this is possible without volunteers and we all make mistakes from time to time. We're all just trying to do our best at something we care a lot about.

I've never had volunteers 'screw up' enough to mandate an entire paragraph on what to do in case they 'screwed up.' Did a bunch of Minnesota college aged volunteers burn down a building or something? Seriously though what happened? I would think if you had a few isolated incidents that you would handle them privately and move on... instead they addressed it vaguely in a document and made everyone wonder 'oh boy, wonder what happened?'

[E3 Robotics Ctr]

I have gone from being on Teams, Mentoring, Judging, Coaching, and Running Tournaments now for JrFLL, FLL, FTC, and FRC.

I have been on both sides of the fence in this situation, so hopefully I can add something to this. While I don't know the whole background on what is happening in MN I know a bit of what has when on.

When I went to college I was then done mentoring and coaching some younger FLL teams. I was invited back as a volunteer for FLL events in our area. I was happy to help where ever I could. There was always roles I wanted, most of the time I was assigned something else. Looking back on it I was grateful, since I was able to work every volunteer spot before I took over as the FLL Tournament Director, which quickly expanding to several local school communities in the area. With this experience I feel I was better prepared to help serve the teams in my area.

I now know what I look for in my volunteers and what areas a person might best fit due to this experience. Looking at the "Do's and Don't" list they sent out, the info on there is valid, but at the same time I can see how some of the word selection comes across a bit brash and rough at times.

For me personally I love having college students help with any of my events. At the same time, for my Key Roles at any level of event I look for those with experience that I know of personally. As a tournament director if something goes wrong, even if someone else caused it, it comes back on you.
(Side Note: There is no such thing as a "perfect event", something will ALWAYS go wrong, it is how you handle that set back that makes your event good or not)
So when I look for those Key Role people I normal look for 21+ aged, with at least 2 years of experience, or know them from another event in which they did they same role, or if another Key Role person/Higher Ranking FIRST Person can back them up, I will feel comfortable giving them that position. When I have a someone that I do not feel is perfect for that Key Role position that they wanted, I will pair them up with that person that I know has experience. This way I can have some trained for the next event. (Those Key Volunteers wont be around forever you know!)


I know that my main background came from FLL and the JrFLL realm, since there was no FRC team at any of the local schools around me at the time, and FTC was not a thing yet.

I still got the chance to be tournament directors for both. And while I followed FRC since 2000 and FTC since it started I had not bee through any of the volunteering roles.

I will tell you, leading up to running a FRC and FTC tournament, I was at as many different tournaments I could get to, making connections, sitting in backrooms, talking to Judges, Volunteers, Key Roles, the Tournament Directors. And if that was not enough I was either emailing, calling, texting one of those people I had met at all of those event asking questions and getting answers and feedback. I went through every volunteer manual for FTC and FRC as well as all the online training that I could. I did not have the years to try out each of the roles at the event like I did for FLL/JrFLL. I learned as much as I could so I could run a successful event.

If I could go back and have time to work through all of the positions I certainly would have liked to do so, but running these events at all levels I can respect that each spot is very important to the tournament. (When you have people back out, or call off sick you realize how important those roles REALLY are)

I can say it is true that running a JrFLL, FLL, FTC, and FRC event is very different, each taking it's own set up and group of people to make it work. And each role is important at every event.


I guess my take away on this is, I am still not 30 and have experienced SO many more parts of FIRST Robotics than I ever would have thought. At the same time people that do not know me sometimes might look down on me due to my age, so I get the whole "Don't write me off, just because I am young!" thing. And on the other hand I see people within our generation wanting "Instant Gratification" to what they want. With both of these being said I know that neither is what we want to strive for within FIRST we have to keep in mind those Core Values they instill within us.

If you are able to get certain Key Roles at certain events, that is Awesome! Keep up the good work and keep helping out with those events! At the same time there will be events where you won't get the Role you want, be happy to help with anything. Like Carolyn said, those that come in early to help and stay late to pack up are some of the biggest help! I know if I need any last minute help my Key Volunteers are always the first to help, and those others that show they are there to help as well, even if they might not have a Key Role, I DO take note of that.

So keep volunteering, and know that every time you help is important, and I hope the discord within MN improves and Districts is possible for you in the near future. I know when IN switched last year to Districts it has set FRC in IN on a new path which has been a pretty great improvement. It was a great effort by IndianaFIRST to get everything in order to ensure it worked smoothly.


- Brian Boehler

[Chief Hedgehog]

At this late hour I must chime in - because I have dealt with most of the Minnesota contingent at one event or another. I do this as I have a 4 year old screaming next to me because she has an ear infection and the childrens tylenol has yet to kick in... life gets in the way.

What saddens me about all of this is that there are so many great people (that have the same intentions) being lambasted on this forum. I can say that because I have experience with putting my foot in my mouth from time to time on CD.

GoFIRST - a great group of energized college students that are willing to advance FIRST in Minnesota. What they do with SRS, SPLASH, and their other events furthers FIRST in Minnesota.

MN FIRST - a great group of people that have created an incredible organization where there once was none. These people put in time to hone the organization that most other states would be envious of.

Volunteers in Minnesota - no one can argue that any volunteer is worth their weight in gold. Thank God most volunteers do not frequent this site.

All of this boils down to two things:
1. The direction that Minnesota needs to go in the future
2. A document that was presented to college-aged people.

I cannot state when or how this document was presented or received - but knowing the two parties, I think that both read the document differently.

If you read it from the party sending it out, it reads as a "how to volunteer at a FRC event and what to expect"

If you read it from the receiving party it may read as "do it our way or else..."

Again, what I think that what is missing in the creation, transmission, and translation of the said document is that all parties need one another in order to further FIRST in Minnesota.

I pray that all of the discussion on this thread can lead to a better organization in Minnesota - because that is what I believe all parties are truly for in the long run.

What we don't need is conjecture and bias playing into all of this. Minnesota does have a tough road ahead as we transition into the future - whether that be regionals or districts. Yes, Minnesota has some of the greatest regionals in FIRST; and yes there are concerns with the future of Minnesota and what comes next.

What we do need is more constructive conversation from all parties with interest in making MN FIRST the best organization in FIRST - clearly this is not how this thread has progressed.

Again, I am loving that we have CD to air our differences - but please lets keep this from being a site where we flame ideas or people with good intentions.

/walks off soap box/

[Truelight]

If there is transparency in the process, things will operate better.

I completely agree with this. Transparency would have prevented all of this.

As someone who is involved in MN FIRST and is aware of the districts debate, it saddens me how little information is made available, let alone even the acknowledgement of districts even being a remote possibility.

Something from being on several FIRST teams has taught me is that communication along side transparency is very effective in meeting a goal. And here, I believe we all have the same goal which is to do what is best for FIRST.

Unfortunately, here in Minnesota communication is deteriorating and this clear goal is being blurred. The ones suffering from this are the events that are now missing some incredibility dedicated alumni.

Transparency of all sides is the key.

[Collin Fultz]

Collin, I apologize if I caused you any confusion. Each paragraph is an individual account from a different volunteer, if you have additional questions or clarifications feel free to PM me.

Ok, that helps. It certainly seems as though there are potential volunteers who have had negative experiences. I took your original post as more a question about you specifically ("How do I train key volunteers?"), which is why I asked what volunteer experience you had. I apologize for misreading this.

Thinking on the letter, I can absolutely appreciate both sides' viewpoints. I do think it's a little troubling that so many people's response to "This document is a little offensive to me." is "No it isn't." instead of "That was not our intent at all. How do we fix it?"

It almost seems like it's gotten to the point of needing some type of mediation between the two groups (which I'm assuming are the GOFIRST students and the MN Regional Planning Committee). Certainly, you both share the same goal: To continue to grow access to FIRST programs throughout your state, so that every student has the opportunity to participate in this life-changing program. A neutral, independent mediator may be able to help both groups build on their own success and move forward. Honestly, I have friendships with people in both groups, former GOFIRST leaders and the RPC members in MN. They are all some of the best people in FIRST that I know. We even snagged one (http://indianafirst.org/first-staff-operating-partners) to lead us here in Indiana.

There are many, many things that precede an area. What could you start doing this year, right now, to help? My first idea would be to start more off-season events. The two years before we made the switch (2013 and 2014), we hosted 4 off-season events each summer in the state. That gave us 6 events a year for a state of around 50 teams. Two of these events were strategically placed in locations to determine feasibility as district host sites. The 2013 off-season state championship was at Perry Meridian HS, which is hosting a district event this year.

These off-seasons are a great opportunity to show that a location can provide a planning committee, fundraise to support an event, pull volunteers, and provide a location suitable. It also gives more people the opportunity to try different volunteer roles in a low-stress environment.

The most important thing, I think, is to come at this from a place of common ground. If you approach the situation negatively, I think you're more likely to get a negative reaction. If you approach it positively, I think you'll get a better response. Disagreement can be both healthy and productive, as long as it's done in a respectful, gracious, and professional manner.

If you have more questions, feel free to ask.

Thank you!

-Collin

[Al Skierkiewicz]

OK,
Time for a little background to be added to this thread...
First, key volunteer roles require level headed, mature people with specific abilities and experience. Some of the wording in this document is directly lifted from my requirements for Lead robot Inspectors and for Inspectors. While Inspecting may look easy for the casual observer, it is not. We just make it look easy. The Inspection staff is tasked with insuring that robots are ready to take the field and compete. We regularly assist teams with robot and team issues and I depend on that staff at every event to be able to deliver bad news and get the team working towards a successful weekend. We train LRIs to recognize when a smile is turned into a frown and to correct it, immediately. In talking with other key volunteers, their desire and training are similar. My requirements for inspectors at a minimum is that they have actively worked on a team building a robot for at least two years. That means I want them to know how to read and interpret rules on the fly to assist teams. Inspectors must pass a test to be allowed to inspect. Even then, each inspector will be evaluated by the volunteer coordinator, the LRI and the regional committee for future volunteer assignment. In addition, any complaints lodged by teams will also be considered. In rare cases, a volunteer may not be the best fit for that role for a variety of reasons.
Any LRI is also expected to fulfill the role of Inspector for several years before being considered as an LRI candidate. During training, that individual will again be evaluated by the LRI and volunteer coordinator under which they train and shadow. It is only in this way can we insure that an event will be successful and the students each volunteer works with receive the highest possible experience.
As to maturity, that is also judged by how a volunteer presents themselves outside of FIRST events as well as when volunteering. While social media seems to be a benign entity, it is not and it is public. When a volunteer expecting a better role, complains in public, degrades staff or committee decisions and purports to know "the real reason" behind certain activities, that is never a secret. Volunteer coordinators need to know that they have the best person in each position because we are putting students at risk if we don't.
Some volunteer positions do not require the level of maturity or experience that other roles demand. We still need volunteers and I am sorry if you think you deserve a different role. My recommendation for everyone is to self evaluate their daily activities as a future employer. Would you hire someone who complains in social media (including CD) about their current employer, decisions made and activities for which they have no real knowledge? I would not.
While many posters, presenting themselves as knowledgeable students in Minnesota, are arguing that the Minnesota committee is preventing a move to districts, you are not in position to know what the committee is doing. You have no knowledge of what it takes to move to districts, the restrictions placed on the committee by FIRST, the state and local jurisdictions, the financial needs or the on the demands for volunteers, including local committees. If you think that the committee is doing a bad job, I would point to the explosive growth in Minnesota, now at 208 teams. I would point to four regional events serving well over 50 teams at each event. I would point to the high standards for volunteers, especially judging staff and inspections. I would point to the expectation that more events are needed and the work they are doing to assist Iowa and Wisconsin. I would point specifically to the great LRI and inspection staff I observe at MN events. I would point to the preparation of rookie teams that allow them to have a great first experience. I think that Minnesota is doing a spectacular job for FIRST and I hold them up as an example for others to emulate.
It is rare to find someone who is still in college or recently entering the workforce to be able to handle the stress and demands of any Key Volunteer position. It is actually hard to find that in someone who has been around for years.
Want a real test? How would you handle a team who shows up for your event at 142" frame perimeter, weighing 130 pounds, with no way to mount bumpers to the front of their robot and a pickup mechanism that extends outside of the frame by 2 feet? Think about how you would deliver the news, how to keep the team engaged, how to get the team working towards a compliant robot. How would you keep the smiles coming and allow the team to keep their pickup in a compliant fashion. That is what our LRIs and Inspectors are facing every week. Compared to Judges working with Chairman's teams or Engineering Inspiration or Rookie Allstar, our job is easy.

[Karthik]

My recommendation for everyone is to self evaluate their daily activities as a future employer. Would you hire someone who complains in social media (including CD) about their current employer, decisions made and activities for which they have no real knowledge? I would not.

Frankly, I think some of the most short sighted and unprofessional posts on this topic both on CD and social media have not been from the MN alumni and their supporters, rather from the established adults chastising this group. Al's point about the perils of social media is absolutely appropriate, however this is something that everyone should be considering, not just the group of alumni who are regularly being called out.

This reminds me a lot of how millennials are regularly called out for simply being younger and having different perspectives. In the end it's the ones who are calling them out in unprofessional in ways that end up embarrassing themselves and looking uninformed.

[Akash Rastogi]

Frankly, I think some of the most short sighted and unprofessional posts on this topic both on CD and social media have not been from the MN alumni and their supporters, rather from the established adults chastising this group. Al's point about the perils of social media is absolutely appropriate, however this is something that everyone should be considering, not just the group of alumni who are regularly being called out.

This reminds me a lot of how millennials are regularly called out for simply being younger and having different perspectives. In the end it's the ones who are calling them out in unprofessional in ways that end up embarrassing themselves and looking uninformed.

That last part is what is really bothering me right now. When older mentors who don't inherently have more experience due to age are talking down to college aged volunteers and implying they are inherently immature, I have very little sympathy for any region craving volunteer growth.

As a mentor, I try my hardest to never pull the age card on my kids. Having been through it as a student, I know that it can feel like one of the most condescending things to hear.

Last post for me in this thread, it is really not worth it. PM to comment on my posts.

.

[Ginger Power]

While many posters, presenting themselves as knowledgeable students in Minnesota, are arguing that the Minnesota committee is preventing a move to districts, you are not in position to know what the committee is doing. You have no knowledge of what it takes to move to districts, the restrictions placed on the committee by FIRST, the state and local jurisdictions, the financial needs or the on the demands for volunteers, including local committees. If you think that the committee is doing a bad job, I would point to the explosive growth in Minnesota, now at 208 teams. I would point to four regional events serving well over 50 teams at each event.

I don't believe I'm one of those students who has said that the Minnesota Committee is preventing a move to districts. I know for sure that I'm not one of those students who believes the Minnesota Committee is doing a bad job, to the contrary, I believe they've done a great job as evidenced by some facts you reference.

I would, however, like to be in a position to know what the committee is doing. Their decisions affect my involvement with FIRST, and the involvement of everybody else in Minnesota.

You are mostly correct in stating that I have no knowledge "of what it takes to move to districts, the restrictions placed on the committee by FIRST, the state and local jurisdictions, the financial needs or the on the demands for volunteers, including local committees." I say mostly correct because I do have some knowledge, but not nearly enough. I think everyone in the state would benefit from having a broad knowledge of the situation that MN FIRST is dealing with. There is no reason, that I can see, that would make secrecy a requirement.

If the general population has a broad understanding of the situation, we will be more equipped to help. If we understand what is going wrong, we can become a part of the solutuon. If the general public understands the issues, we can provide accurate, and educated feedback with an understanding for how difficult some issues are.

The fact is, people don't understand how the transition to districts will work, nor the problems associated with such a transition. Once that problem is resolved, we can start making real change happen.

[PayneTrain]

As this thread approaches a point where it is best off locked up from the denizens of this corner of the internet, I just want to make sure that it's pretty clear it's now impossible to buy into the meme that Minnesota can't move to the district system because of a lack of a volunteer base.

Sure, my only experience with Minnesota comes from
a) flying up there to canoe one summer (it was great, thanks nature!)
b) the Saints beating the Vikings in the NFCCG (sorry Vikings fans)

but I live in a region that really seemed to hate the idea of moving to districts. Just couldn't seem to find x or y. New executive director for the state's 501c3 comes in and says "yo, we're doing this now" and people FREAK OUT. WE'RE NOT READY! HOW WILL THE EARTH CONTINUE TO SPIN WITHOUT HAVING A DEEP BENCH OF GAME ANNOUNCERS [or other KV position here]."

We're going into our last week of districts and hell yeah, there have been growing pains. We had to wait 3 hours to get inspected at our first event. But hey, my first thought was "wow, guess we need to get some of our to-be alums trained up to be RIs" not "wow, guess I need to tell the internet how much districts suck." We went to the first event to spectate and hoo boy, some stuff was rough. But hey, first district, a lot of KVs brand new to their positions, refereeing is hard this year and the barrel plugs on these radios are nightmare fuel. The only problem was the grotesque number of the infernal FRC parody videos everyone had to sit through.

The biggest victory of the district system? Coaches got an email a week before the district saying "hey, we NEED people for these positions." I ring up a couple alumni from the local college and they leap right into it. We had one alum get the opportunity to go from high school senior last season to Game Announcer this season. And he KILLED it. One of the clearest, most enthusiastic and confident GAs I have heard in a long time. Sure I'm biased because I know him, but also I know that he was very green but wanted to do the job well. He will be doing the job this weekend and I expect great things.

If he was a Golden Gopher instead of a Hokie, he would be told he wasn't even old enough to run FIELD RESET this year. How are you going to engage your alumni to further advance your program when you tell them to man safety glasses until someone almost quite literally dies? MN's RPC has triggered an aggressive expansion of teams but seems to balk at the idea of aggressively expanding their volunteer base. Why?

[Nate Laverdure]

It's quite amazing how far the document diverges from the one published by GuamFIRST. I compared the two documents so you can see for yourself-- it's almost eerie how the two letters have the same format but vastly different messages. Not half as destructive or offensive. Great job GuamFIRST!

[Al Skierkiewicz]

It's quite amazing how far the document diverges from the one published by GuamFIRST. I compared the two documents so you can see for yourself-- it's almost eerie how the two letters have the same format but vastly different messages. Not half as destructive or offensive. Great job GuamFIRST!
Nate,
I disagree, the messages are almost identical down to the actual wording.

Happily, when students graduate from teams and/or from college, they often want to give back to
the FRC program!
With the growth of FIRST Programs in Minnesota, many students are graduating from teams
and/or from college and wanting to give back to the FRC program.

GuamFIRST staffs our events with people who volunteer often and energetically.
DO volunteer often and energetically.

In your personal communications (including social media), maintain an awareness of how
your voice may be heard by your audience.
When not at an event, be aware that everything you do reflects
on FIRST. This is especially true with social media – Tweets, posts, or blogs can easily cause
issues for volunteers. Stay positive, think about how your post will be perceived,

It is just written in different style because it was written by a different person. It is the same message.

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

It's quite amazing how far the document diverges from the one published by GuamFIRST. I compared the two documents so you can see for yourself-- it's almost eerie how the two letters have the same format but vastly different messages. Not half as destructive or offensive. Great job GuamFIRST!

3Spooky5Me!

So now that this thread has brought to light the falseness of Minnesota's "lack of volunteers" problem, are there any actual problems preventing Minnesota from transitioning to districts??? The last two threads I read about MN and Districts, this was unequivocally the primary/only problem cited by many individuals. Argument doesn't look so strong now.

[BrendanB]

Nate,
I disagree, the messages are almost identical down to the actual wording.

Happily, when students graduate from teams and/or from college, they often want to give back to
the FRC program!
With the growth of FIRST Programs in Minnesota, many students are graduating from teams
and/or from college and wanting to give back to the FRC program.

GuamFIRST staffs our events with people who volunteer often and energetically.
DO volunteer often and energetically.

In your personal communications (including social media), maintain an awareness of how
your voice may be heard by your audience.
When not at an event, be aware that everything you do reflects
on FIRST. This is especially true with social media – Tweets, posts, or blogs can easily cause
issues for volunteers. Stay positive, think about how your post will be perceived,

It is just written in different style because it was written by a different person. It is the same message.

I respectfully disagree. Only one of those documents makes me want to volunteer.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Nate,
I disagree, the messages are almost identical down to the actual wording.

Happily, when students graduate from teams and/or from college, they often want to give back to
the FRC program!
With the growth of FIRST Programs in Minnesota, many students are graduating from teams
and/or from college and wanting to give back to the FRC program.

GuamFIRST staffs our events with people who volunteer often and energetically.
DO volunteer often and energetically.

In your personal communications (including social media), maintain an awareness of how
your voice may be heard by your audience.
When not at an event, be aware that everything you do reflects
on FIRST. This is especially true with social media – Tweets, posts, or blogs can easily cause
issues for volunteers. Stay positive, think about how your post will be perceived,

It is just written in different style because it was written by a different person. It is the same message.

Yes, they are different styles. One of which is vaguely insulting. The other is more encouraging.

More bees with honey than vinegar.

[dag0620]

From an outsider's perspective: One problem I think MN has is that the entire state is run by one RPC. Most other districts took several RPCs, and combined them, allowing for a wealth of expertise. Unless MN starts to divy up the load on to more planning committees before the switch, the transition in that regard could be rough.

Getting the volunteer base is a struggle every district goes through, but having to grow planning committees by 10 in the first year isn't.

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

Nate,
I disagree, the messages are almost identical down to the actual wording.

...

It is just written in different style because it was written by a different person. It is the same message.

The message may be the same, but the presentations are completely different; night and day. Two salesmen can present the same pitch for the same exact product and get drastically different results.

GuamFIRST staffs our events with people who volunteer often and energetically.
DO volunteer often and energetically.

GuamFIRST: Tells me waht they look for and how they staff their events. Insiteful!
Minnesota: Tells me how I should volunteer. You don't know my journey, Minnesota.

In your personal communications (including social media), maintain an awareness of how
your voice may be heard by your audience.
When not at an event, be aware that everything you do reflects
on FIRST. This is especially true with social media – Tweets, posts, or blogs can easily cause
issues for volunteers. Stay positive, think about how your post will be perceived,

GuamFIRST: Reminds me that as a volunteer, a represent the community, and people will look up to me.
Minnesota: Scares the $#!& out of me by guilt-tripping me into not making a social blunder, because "they're always watching!!!".

HUGE tone differences.

[Alan Anderson]

It's quite amazing how far the document diverges from the one published by GuamFIRST. I compared the two documents so you can see for yourself-- it's almost eerie how the two letters have the same format but vastly different messages. Not half as destructive or offensive. Great job GuamFIRST!

I'm obviously not picking up on what people are seeing as "destructive or offensive" about the document supposedly* published by MN FIRST. The two letters look to me like they have exactly the same message. The only substantial difference in style I see is that one is written in an active and instructional form, while the other is more passive and conversational. If I were just starting out as a possible volunteer, I know I would appreciate the specific guidance of the first one more.



* It was presented here as second-hand information, and I don't see a reference to it on the mnfirst web site.

[Lil' Lavery]

Considering the letter discussion has continued to dominate this thread (to my dismay), I do have a question. How was the letter published/distributed? Was it posted on a MN FIRST website for prospective volunteers? Was it e-mailed to all volunteers on the VC's list? Was it emailed to a specific group of volunteers? Was it released for public consumption at all?

[bkahl]

How was the letter published/distributed?



I was a student at the presentation at which this document was distributed. ...

As a student who attended the presentation, I was surprised for several reasons. The meeting at which the presentation occurred was part of a regular sequence of meetings in which university faculty and outside corporate employees give talks about their work. That particular meeting had been advertised as a "an inside look into life as an engineer and success after college from *speaker name redacted* who works at *company name redacted*", and was something I had genuinely looked forward to based on the extensive industry experience the speaker seemed to have and my interest in the company they work at. Unfortunately, once the meeting began it quickly changed focus to discussing FIRST volunteer feedback.


Was distributed at a presentation by a guest speaker of sorts.

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

...The only substantial difference in style I see is that one is written in an active and instructional form, while the other is more passive and conversational. If I were just starting out as a possible volunteer, I know I would appreciate the specific guidance of the first one more.

If you have not done so, please read my previous post #75.

I think the biggest tone difference between the two that particularly strikes a negative cord with the college aged audience is in the following passage:

...Many of these students are motivated to pursue specific volunteer goals – they
want to be an FTA, or a Head Ref, or an LRI, or an MC or Game Announcer. When we connect
with these passionate people who desire to be a Key Volunteer, GuamFIRST works to advance
them towards their goals by helping them form into mature and experienced volunteers, often over
several years of development. GuamFIRST has provided this document as a guide for
understanding our volunteer advancement program.

...Many of these students have specific volunteer goals – they want to be an FTA, or a Head Ref, or an LRI, or an MC or Game Announcer. These Key Volunteer positions take a mature, experienced volunteer, and will take at least several years to work towards. Use this document as a guide as you work towards your volunteer goals!

GuamFIRST: We will help you get to where you want to be.
Minnesota: You're not mature enough yet, but if you work toward it, maybe you might be some day.
College kids LOVE to hear that one!

You have to be blind as a bat to miss this one.

[Dibit1010]

Sometimes districts are annoying. It's one more step to get to St. Louis

[PayneTrain]

Sometimes districts are annoying. It's one more step to get to St. Louis

ok

[bkahl]

ok

I don't think this post positively contributes to the discussion in this thread.

Please try and bee a bit more productive next time!

[PayneTrain]

I don't think this post positively contributes to the discussion in this thread.

Please try and bee a bit more productive next time!

sorry man this thread just isn't what i want it to bee about

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

sorry man this thread just isn't what i want it to bee about

That's kind of an immature way to think about it.

What is it exactly that you want this thread to be about?

[Collin Fultz]

Sometimes districts are annoying. It's one more step to get to St. Louis

This is a real concern for some teams. In the regional system, you can qualify for the World Championship after 1 event. With districts, it takes 3. This is a turn off for some mentors.

We try to balance that by having some events on Saturday-Sunday, helping limit the time off from work required by mentors.

It's a balance. There are positives and negatives to districts. I think that the positives greatly outweigh the negatives. I don't think that means that those negatives should be ignored.

[notmattlythgoe]

sorry man this thread just isn't what i want it to bee about

Decided to pop in and see what the buzz was all about.

[PayneTrain]

That's kind of an immature way to think about it.

What is it exactly that you want this thread to be about?

why im right and everyone else is wrong, obviously...

that is why we have the internet right? to tell people they are wrong and we are right

[Shrub]

Considering the letter discussion has continued to dominate this thread (to my dismay), I do have a question. How was the letter published/distributed? Was it posted on a MN FIRST website for prospective volunteers? Was it e-mailed to all volunteers on the VC's list? Was it emailed to a specific group of volunteers? Was it released for public consumption at all?

Ryan explained the context in full here. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1562245&postcount=23) Although I know GOFIRST members and participated in GOFIRST's Ri3d, this thread was my first time seeing the letter.

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

why im right and everyone else is wrong, obviously...

that is why we have the internet right? to tell people they are wrong and we are right

Ha ha ha ha ha ha.That one was a good one. I almost thought you were being serious for a moment.

http://www.horadoduelo.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/you_just_activated_my_trap_card_Demotivators_20111 118-s600x450-266096-475.jpg

[CalTran]

This is a real concern for some teams. In the regional system, you can qualify for the World Championship after 1 event. With districts, it takes 3. This is a turn off for some mentors.

We try to balance that by having some events on Saturday-Sunday, helping limit the time off from work required by mentors.

It's a balance. There are positives and negatives to districts. I think that the positives greatly outweigh the negatives. I don't think that means that those negatives should be ignored.

I think the difference is goals that teams and organizations have. Generally, a team's prerogative is to compete and qualify for the FIRST World Championships (Admittedly, who doesn't want to qualify for that?), whereas the RPCs want to maximize the amount of matches and experience overall for teams. The disconnect, it seems, is the work it takes to be successful in a District model. (Things like time, necessary steps to qualify for Worlds, etc.)

Regionals seem better for teams because it looks "easier" to qualify for the World Championships.
Districts are better from an "experience" standpoint because it gets teams the nearly double the amount of matches (or triple if you qualify for District Championships followed by World Championships).

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Solomon,
I am trying to understand your viewpoint. Can you explain the difference you see in the two messages addressing volunteers...
GuamFIRST staffs our events with people who volunteer often and energetically.
DO volunteer often and energetically.

or


In your personal communications (including social media), maintain an awareness of how
your voice may be heard by your audience.
When not at an event, be aware that everything you do reflects
on FIRST. This is especially true with social media – Tweets, posts, or blogs can easily cause
issues for volunteers. Stay positive, think about how your post will be perceived,

[Kevin Sevcik]

Ryan explained the context in full here. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1562245&postcount=23) I do not know and cannot vouch if Bison Robotics received a similar presentation, and although I know GOFIRST members and participated in GOFIRST's Ri3d, that was my first time seeing the letter.

Was distributed at a presentation by a guest speaker of sorts.I'll just post Sean's followup for him: What about this presentation indicated this was a MN FIRST document? Was the presenter a representative of MN FIRST? The document itself is seems entirely generic outside of the introductory paragraph.

[notmattlythgoe]

I think the difference is goals that teams and organizations have. Generally, a team's prerogative is to compete and qualify for the FIRST World Championships (Admittedly, who doesn't want to qualify for that?), whereas the RPCs want to maximize the amount of matches and experience overall for teams. The disconnect, it seems, is the work it takes to be successful in a District model. (Things like time, necessary steps to qualify for Worlds, etc.)

Regionals seem better for teams because it looks "easier" to qualify for the World Championships.
Districts are better from an "experience" standpoint because it gets teams the nearly double the amount of matches (or triple if you qualify for District Championships followed by World Championships).

I can tell you that districts have made it easier for my team to qualify for the World Championship(s). Where before we had to win an event to qualify, now we just have to rely on good performance to qualify.

This "it adds one more level to be able to qualify" comes from people that don't understand how districts work.

To answer the original question about how you can help. One of the original goals of the Rumble in the Roads offseason event was to prove to VA FIRST that our area could support district events. We wanted to use our offseason event to grow our local volunteer base and show that an even that size could be hosted in the area.

[PayneTrain]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha.That one was a good one. I almost thought you were being serious for a moment.

[IMG]

No way man, I'm just here to make troll posts that drive people away from CD, and keep certain parties out of relevant discussions. I have never provided anything of value like the fine upstanding people in this thread and FIRST abroad that also just happen to have more experience in FIRST and the industry™. The team I coach for is invalid because it is run partially by some snot-nosed 21 year old brat that won't shut up and let the olde--smarter people talk. Sorry, everyone.

[Lil' Lavery]

I can tell you that districts have made it easier for my team to qualify for the World Championship(s). Where before we had to win an event to qualify, now we just have to rely on good performance to qualify.

This "it adds one more level to be able to qualify" comes from people that don't understand how districts work.

With a select few exceptions, it does add an additional level to be able to qualify. Very few teams are able to gather enough points in their first two events to not need additional points at their DCMP to reach CMP. For budget conscious teams, there is a significant additional cost associated with having to compete three times prior to CMP rather than just once.

I don't think that concern outweighs the benefit of districts in most regions, but it is a legitimate concern.

[CalTran]

I can tell you that districts have made it easier for my team to qualify for the World Championship(s). Where before we had to win an event to qualify, now we just have to rely on good performance to qualify.

This "it adds one more level to be able to qualify" comes from people that don't understand how districts work.

Oh, I completely agree that Districts are the way to go. Districts, in the best way that I've heard them described "promote consistency over moments of brilliance." At the very least, you aren't paying some $600 a match.

[notmattlythgoe]

With a select few exceptions, it does add an additional level to be able to qualify. Very few teams are able to gather enough points in their first two events to not need additional points at their DCMP to reach CMP. For budget conscious teams, there is a significant additional cost associated with having to compete three times prior to CMP rather than just once.

I don't think that concern outweighs the benefit of districts in most regions, but it is a legitimate concern.

My point was supposed to be that it is not inherently harder to qualify in the district model than in the regional model.

[Knufire]

Considering the letter discussion has continued to dominate this thread (to my dismay), I do have a question. How was the letter published/distributed? Was it posted on a MN FIRST website for prospective volunteers? Was it e-mailed to all volunteers on the VC's list? Was it emailed to a specific group of volunteers? Was it released for public consumption at all?

I invite any members of GOFIRST who were actually attending the presentation this was distributed at to give a first hand account of what happened. I've seen a few of these members describing what happened on other social media platforms but seem to be afraid of posing here lest they be crucified, which is exactly the problem at hand.

The issue isn't specifically volunteering. These kids just want to get involved and have their voice heard on the directon Minnesota is going. Volunteering is simply the avenue they have of being involved. This document, along with the general culture, has implied to them that if they voice views that don't agree with the leadership, their only method of getting involved (volunteering) will be relegated to more menial roles.

[pmallikarjun]

I'll just post Sean's followup for him: What about this presentation indicated this was a MN FIRST document? Was the presenter a representative of MN FIRST? The document itself is seems entirely generic outside of the introductory paragraph.

The speaker is a long-time member of the MN RPC and an MN KV who was invited to speak about his engineering experience at the tech company he works for. GOFIRST has meetings for this purpose on a biweekly basis to provide networking opportunities to any student at UMN (so these meetings are attended by FIRST alumni at the U and students who have no idea what FIRST is other than that 2 regionals and an off-season state championship for FIRST are held on campus yearly).

I know a couple members of Bison Robotics also received a copy of the document, but I'm not sure if it was presented to them at a general meeting meant to introduce students to a specific company or if it was emailed to them for review/some other reason.

With regards to Knufire's comment, I'll just say that I had been considering making a CD account for a couple weeks now (starting from the 8 plays thread) and held off because I'm worried that voicing my PERSONAL opinions here will cause me to no longer be allowed to volunteer in MN though I have volunteered as a ref for the past 3 years (1 year in MN & at Champs, 1 year in MN & CO, and this year (for now) in MN). Additionally, all of my comments are my own PERSONAL opinion and do not reflect the opinions of any of the organiziations I am involved with now or have been involved with in the past.

[pwnageNick]

I invite any members of GOFIRST who were actually attending the presentation this was distributed at to give a first hand account of what happened. I've seen a few of these members describing what happened on other social media platforms but seem to be afraid of posing here lest they be crucified, which is exactly the problem at hand.

I can't blame them after reading this thread. If I were them (a college alum eager to volunteer... wait a minute) I wouldn't want to get lampooned by some of the people in this thread either.

[Alan Anderson]

GuamFIRST: We will help you get to where you want to be.
Minnesota: You're not mature enough yet, but if you work toward it, maybe you might be some day.
College kids LOVE to hear that one!

You have to be blind as a bat to miss this one.

Color me blind, then. I don't see the Minnesota document accusing anyone of not being mature. They both set the expectation of maturity. The Guam one just surrounds it with many more words, and softens it by saying "often over several years" rather than "will take at least several years".

[pwnageNick]

Color me blind, then. I don't see the Minnesota document accusing anyone of not being mature. They both set the expectation of maturity. The Guam one just surrounds it with many more words, and softens it by saying "often over several years" rather than "will take at least several years".

It says in the document that key volunteer spots require maturity, etc. Saying this while being presented to college alumni literally implies they are not that. At least that is definitely how it reads.

Agree to disagree I guess if you don't see that.

I would direct quote here but am stuck on my phone ATM.

[EricLeifermann]

This is a real concern for some teams. In the regional system, you can qualify for the World Championship after 1 event. With districts, it takes 3. This is a turn off for some mentors.


Not true, District teams can still go to traditional regional and qualify. No need to go to the DCMP.

[Lil' Lavery]

Not true, District teams can still go to traditional regional and qualify. No need to go to the DCMP.

District teams are required to register (and pay) for their district events. In most cases, their local regional no longer exists, so travelling to an additional regional will cost more money and more travel time. While it's hypothetically possible that a district team could "no show" at both of their district events and only compete at an external regional and then CMP, I find that situation highly unlikely. So, either way you cut it, you're still talking about three pre-CMP events as opposed to one.

[CalTran]

The Guam one just surrounds it with many more words, and softens it by saying "often over several years" rather than "will take at least several years".

That's just it though, the Guam one uses rhetoric to make the program sound like a friendly place where they will be more than willing to help you. While I'm sure that the MN program should be willing to do the same thing, the way that the document is written comes across to a younger audience as command laden and aggressive. Granted, college students take most things as "aggressive", but that's a different topic :rolleyes:

[jajabinx124]

Not true, District teams can still go to traditional regional and qualify. No need to go to the DCMP.

Yeah, some teams tend to do that. Teams like 27, 217, etc. usually attend a regional then attend their district events. 900 even did that this year.

[Karthik]

It is rare to find someone who is still in college or recently entering the workforce to be able to handle the stress and demands of any Key Volunteer position. It is actually hard to find that in someone who has been around for years.

In Ontario the large majority of key volunteers (FTA, LRI, Head Ref) are either a college students or have recently entered the workforce. These folks are some of the best volunteers I have ever encountered in all of FRC. I was just at the UMass-Dartmouth district event where I was blown away by the energy and skill displayed by the young volunteers working the event. In addition, I'm responsible for recruiting our key volunteers for VEX Worlds. 39 of our 73 key volunteers (MC/Announcers, Field Techs, Head Refs) are FRC alums in university or have recently entered the workforce. FRC alumni are a passionate and dedicated group who can most easily relate to the pressures that students go through in this program; I have a hard time seeing why anyone wouldn't want to channel the energy and talent these young people bring and use it to sustain and grow their local events.

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

Solomon,
I am trying to understand your viewpoint. Can you explain the difference you see in the two messages addressing volunteers...

Ok, lemme give it a shot.

GuamFIRST staffs our events with people who volunteer often and energetically.
DO volunteer often and energetically.

The first one comes off as informative, insightful, and helpful. People like help. People ask for help.
The second one comes off as authoritarian and demanding. Do this!!! People instinctively don't like being told what to do. That's why so many people are driven to start their own companies, or change jobs; because their boss is a micromanager/control-freak, and/or so they are their own boss (fun fact: the consumer is your boss).
The last few words might be the same, but it's how they start the sentence that gets you.

In your personal communications (including social media), maintain an awareness of how
your voice may be heard by your audience.
When not at an event, be aware that everything you do reflects
on FIRST. [U]This is especially true with social media – Tweets, posts, or blogs can easily cause
issues for volunteers. Stay positive, think about how your post will be perceived,

Again, the first one is a simple and SHORT reminder; be aware. Even in bullet-point form to keep it short! Because it's not the main point.
The second one is nestled into a paragraph, and uses the phrases "everything you do reflects on FIRST", and "Tweets, posts, or blogs can easily cause issues for volunteers". Jeez, no pressure or anything. Why would you even say that second part!?!?!

As you may have noticed from my other posts, there are MUCH worse passages that highlight the subtle differences between the two documents. You might be thinking, "That's not fair. This is so subtle." Just think how subtle the human brain works; the difference between charming and creepy can LITERALLY be a pause or two between words.

-Mother was a salesman for many decades (from cars, to kitchen remodeling, to plumbing, to radio advertising, to mortgages), so maybe I have an inherited ability to notice undertones that might #trigger! other people.

[rzoeller]

Since some people are wary of new accounts, I can confirm Pratheeksha's (pmallikarjun's) identity. Hopefully that removes any doubts you may have.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Color me blind, then. I don't see the Minnesota document accusing anyone of not being mature. They both set the expectation of maturity. The Guam one just surrounds it with many more words, and softens it by saying "often over several years" rather than "will take at least several years".

Alan, I hate to play the age card but I genuinely think it could be that. I'm bothered by the MN FIRST document. It, overall, felt off-putting. I can't point to specific lines or phrases but it gave off a vibe of being unwanted. I know folks like Bailey reacted more negatively to it than I did.

Given the target audience of this document [1] I would definitely consider revising this document based on the feedback from young volunteers/potential volunteers. While you and Al might not see anything wrong with it the sample target audience in this thread has found it mildly distasteful. If my goal is to encourage/educate young volunteers [2] I'm going to want to revise it based on this feedback.

I'm not saying you're wrong or that the language in the MNFIRST doc is bad or that the GuamFIRST doc is perfect. I'm saying that one appears to be offensive to the target audience while the other one is less offensive to that audience.




[1] I'm assuming honesty and that the target audience is alumni volunteers in MN.

[2] It should be.

[Ginger Power]

I know a couple members of Bison Robotics also received a copy of the document, but I'm not sure if it was presented to them at a general meeting meant to introduce students to a specific company or if it was emailed to them for review/some other reason.

The document was emailed to me and another leader on Bison Robotics last year, I believe right around the time (possibly before) the presentation was given to GOFIRST. Feedback on the document was requested and provided, and the document was shown to members of Bison Robotics by myself.

Most of the points that the document makes are common sense. So in my presentation to Bison Robotics, I essentially ran through it and told people to use their common sense. Surprisingly, college kids do have some of that. We have had no issues volunteering in Minnesota.

[ehochstein]

In your personal communications (including social media), maintain an awareness of how
your voice may be heard by your audience.
When not at an event, be aware that everything you do reflects
on FIRST. This is especially true with social media – Tweets, posts, or blogs can easily cause
issues for volunteers. Stay positive, think about how your post will be perceived,




Is this how we want our alum to feel? Is this appropriate? Is this FIRST?

http://i.imgur.com/nE58Zp1.png

This was posted on twitter as a response to this thread.

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

Alan, I hate to play the age card but I genuinely think it could be that.

Lol; old man, you don't understand the young peoples!!!!!!

I can't point to specific lines or phrases but it gave off a vibe of being unwanted.

Can and did. Individual passages are very noticeable.

I'm not saying the language in the MNFIRST doc is bad...

I am. It is a very poorly worded document. I wonder if they even ran it past a couple of college aged students to see what they thought about it. You know, like beta-testing.

[Conor Ryan]

I think what we are hearing about in these conversations is common in 'district holes' throughout the world - regions where they said there would be districts right now. The following applies to areas like Minnesota, Ohio/Western PA/WV, Texas, and Northern California and Southern California.

I think what it comes down to is the area leadership. The leadership hears frequently from HQ and other districts about the requirements to move to a region to a district, but what we don't hear about publicly are the road maps and decisive plans to get there. Yes acquiring the memorandum of understanding is a big landmark, but what about the rest of the steps. Moving a region is a massive undertaking, but there is a model to it now. Early districts lead the way and now I think there are clear operating steps to getting other locations online.

I've been to MN events, NJ districts and MI districts as well as various others throughout the US. The enthusiasm is there, I just believe that some people that sit at the district table for a region raise concerns louder than other people (squeaky wheels gets the grease).

More robots are happening. I think not everyone is asking how they can help make that possible, rather than if it is possible.

To all those voices that are asking these questions about how they can help transition their area? HOST AN OFF SEASON. Its a critical step to introducing the local flavor of events. If you build it they will come. You will gain a seat at the tables that have the authority to move a region to districts. You will better understand the situation and challenges. You will make it happen. Get in touch with AndyMark, the venue, everything around you. It will fall into place, you get to control the destiny, if you act quickly I bet you can pull an event off before schools out for the summer. What is stopping you?

In 2005, a couple of high school students joked around and said we should host an off season event at our school. Then we thought we should make it real. 12 months later (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44153) the first Monty Madness (http://www.montymadness.com/) appeared. After years of putting off taking the plunge to hosting an actual district event, the first official event (http://frc-events.usfirst.org/2016/NJSKI) is week 6. Looking back, it was a pivotal local event in spreading the district model, its where volunteers got trained, teams gained experienced, district meetings were had and robots happened.

Facilitate it.

[Jared Russell]

I do think it's a little troubling that so many people's response to "This document is a little offensive to me." is "No it isn't." instead of "That was not our intent at all. How do we fix it?"

So much this.

[pmallikarjun]

I wonder if they even ran it past a couple of college aged students to see what they thought about it. You know, like beta-testing.

I think the intention of speaker was initially to beta-test the document at the GOFIRST meeting. However, the speaker had presented to the group at meetings in the past and was familiar with the fact that many of the students in attendance at these meetings are not FIRST alumni. When this document was delivered, I think the attendees of the meeting were very surprised, because the content of the meeting was not what they had been told it would be. I think if GOFIRST had been asked to create a focus group for reviewing this document, rather than having it sprung upon the group at a meeting for a different purpose, the feedback from college students could have been given before the document was distributed to UMN students who had never volunteered and in some cases didn't even know what FIRST was. Since this wasn't done, students who had never volunteered before received a document that probably made them uncomfortable and therefore now are probably even more hesitant to volunteer than they were before.

As always, my comments are my own opinion and do not reflect the opinions of any of the groups I'm associated with.

[notmattlythgoe]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BZqwku9O20o/VdbIwdBlacI/AAAAAAAATS8/NOvVtL8C0tQ/s320/am-i-out-of-touch.gif

[Pauline Tasci]

OK,
It is rare to find someone who is still in college or recently entering the workforce to be able to handle the stress and demands of any Key Volunteer position. It is actually hard to find that in someone who has been around for years.


This is 100% ridiculous.. Alumni in college are some of the most hardworking and understanding of the FIRST program.
"Rare " are not college students that hold roles such as:
over 6 FTA's in Michigan
over 20 Robot Inspectors in CA
over 3 regional committee members in Southern California
over 20 senior mentors being college aged
over 20 referees
More things like MC's, Game announcers, ect are also widely filled by college students. These numbers are just specific to the location I mentioned, these positions for college students are present nearly everywhere (except Minnesota). College students do well in this situation since they are the MOST passionate, understand the teams, and know the program. Alumni give back by volunteering since a lot do not have the time or resources to mentor.

I'm 2 years out of high school, I have filled nearly every key volunteer role you can imagine.
So many of my colleagues in FIRST CA that hold key roles are young college students, and that's because our state as a whole realizes that this generation is preparing to take over FIRST and we are utilizing them as volunteers that have experience inside teams.
The problem is that a lot of people play the "older age" card as a "maturity" card. The two are not mutually exclusive.

[Jon Stratis]

Would it help move the discussion onto more productive grounds if people knew this doc was killed over a year ago, and only distributed once? Seriously, everything about the doc is litterally :deadhorse:

[PayneTrain]

Would it help move the discussion onto more productive grounds if people knew this doc was killed over a year ago, and only distributed once? Seriously, everything about the doc is litterally :deadhorse:

Why did it get killed? I don't see any problem with it.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Evan,
Are you saying this person is reacting to my post(s)? It is never my intention to trigger that response from a student or former student. You know me, you know I would not do that. The post you quoted is simply a lift from a previous post showing the similarity of two documents that are being compared.

Pauline,
I said it was rare but not that it never occurred. There are many former students, college age and others who fill these roles with distinction. I, for one, am quite happy to see former students make the transition to better volunteer roles. I worked with several over the weekend in Australia who are on the right track for the roles they wish to fill. I agree that age and maturity are not the same.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Would it help move the discussion onto more productive grounds if people knew this doc was killed over a year ago, and only distributed once? Seriously, everything about the doc is litterally :deadhorse:

Why was it killed?

[Thad House]

To be honest, the issues seen in this thread are issues being seen across the entire world. The old guard establishment is too ingrained in their ways, and have had a very difficult time acting likes its 2016 instead of the 90's or even early. I see this first hand at large old tech companies, where everyone that makes the decisions has been at the company for 20+ years, and are so out of touch in an ever advancing world. Companies like Intel and Microsoft do massive layoffs (mostly of the younger crowd who work in the testing departments), and then wonder why their products keep getting worse and worse and they can't sell them. Companies like Google and Facebook are able to work around this as they have the young engineers and executives making the decisions, which allows them to adapt. You can see this same trend in the current presidential elections as well. Young people are so sick and tired of the establishment not caring about the future of our people that even though the candidates outside of the establishment are crazy they are still getting tons of votes, as the young population has seen that the current situation is not working out.

[ehochstein]

Evan,
Are you saying this person is reacting to my post(s)? It is never my intention to trigger that response from a student or former student. You know me, you know I would not do that. The post you quoted is simply a lift from a previous post showing the similarity of two documents that are being compared.


Al,

That was not directed at your post but the strictness of the policy. The person I quoted from twitter has been involved in MN FIRST FRC volunteering for many years. If they are that afraid of making any sort of post or comment, what does that say about our community?

[jman4747]

First I have a question. Did MN FIRST come out and officially say they want to pursue districts save for a lack of volunteers and/or other resources, or something to that effect? I'm really interested in that aside form any controversy.

Next a piece of advise to the GOFIRST members. As a 19y/o collage student the letter it self doesn't put me off, and if say GA FIRST put it out tomorrow it wouldn't matter much. I think your real grievance lies with what's happened around the letter and you should focus on that more as it will serve your case better. The letter and different peoples reaction to it dose point something out to me though.

They might not understand you but you probably don't understand them either. They probably didn't write that to scare you off or put you down. But you have to understand that they aren't you and won't read it like you. I didn't read it like you so why would you think they know how you feel reading it? It is most likely a way to explain why you didn't and often won't necessarily get the job you prefer and a way to let you know it usually takes a while to work up to a lead position. So even if it fails to acknowledge that there can be exceptions to this norm that doesn't mean there won't be in practice. But they probably didn't know you would have wanted the letter to acknowledge the possibility of moving up faster because they aren't you.

The point is if in practice they are in fact denying positions to qualified persons or using social media unfairly than focus on that. The letter could be written a nicely as you want or as offensively as you fear and it won't affect your situation. And finally try to understand them as much as you wish they understood you.

[Bryan Herbst]

I'm going to go ahead and answer the original question: How do I help my area move to districts?

First, a few disclaimers: I am from Minnesota. I am not on the RPC, though I was on it for a year and know all of the members. I am a key volunteer, and I graduated college relatively recently (that is, I'm not an old man shooing rascally kids off my lawn).

Here are some real issues that need to be solved to move a region to districts:


Where are these events happening? I don't mean give me the names of the small handful of school who currently host offseason events. For Minnesota, we need at least two locations every week plus one for the district championships.
Someone needs to contact those locations. You need to be willing to drive to those locations and speak with representatives from the venue regarding contracts, timing, and logistics. Keep in mind that Minnesota is a large state and the proposed district spans the entire state.
At this point, probably go back to step one because a few of your original venues were taken off the list because they are unavailable when you need them.
Find funding for these events. Someone will need to go and speak to potential donors. Believe me, this will take a lot of potential donors. These donors also need to respect you and the organization (FIRST) that you represent.
Find volunteers. Let's assume for a second that Minnesota has enough volunteers total such that each volunteer works two events (because that horse has been overbeaten more times than I care to count). Now you need to coordinate getting the right volunteers for 13 events (up from 4). They need to be relatively local to the area and/or willing to travel for the event. Your VC for each event should probably know these volunteers by name and a good VC will also have the same qualities as a good manager- they know where you want to be in 5 years and are working with you to get there. A VC isn't a once-a-year or maybe-I'll-try-this-out position.
Coordinate the A/V aspect of the events. Who is webcasting each event? Who is running the sound board and projector? Do you have the equipment to do that? If not, go back to the fundraising step and then go through the process of acquiring equipment
Find a place that can store your field(s). For Minnesota, this is a number greater than or equal to 2.
Find people to maintain your field. It needs to be cleaned at least yearly, and things like road crates frequently need repair.
Go back to fundraising because you also need to purchase fields.
Figure out how to transport the field(s) to the events. The location Minnesota's field currently lives at between events doesn't allow anyone in under 18 and is only open during the workday M-F. The 2016 field also requires either two regular moving trucks or one semi, either requiring two drivers or someone with a Class A license (x13)

Those are the tasks I came up with in a few minutes of thinking, and I know there are a million more. Don't forget that the people we are currently asking to do these things are also currently responsible for 208 Minnesota teams and 4 regional events that need to continue running during the transition.

As much as I hate to say it, I don't think most college students would be good fits for many of these tasks. It's not because I think college students are immature or lazy, it's because of the time commitment many of these tasks require. College students should be focused first and foremost on college, and it becomes difficult to do that if you are trying to coordinate fundraising for 13 district events with executives from dozens to hundreds of companies. There is a reason that many have suggested that a 501(c)(3) is necessary: managing districts can easily be a full time job for a group of people.

That being said, these tasks can and should be divided amongst people. Regardless of who you are and where you come from, if one of these tasks sounds like something you would be good and and are interested in doing, talk to your RPC about how you can help out in that area.

Saying to your RPC "I want us to switch to districts" isn't likely to get you anywhere. Saying "I want us to switch to districts, I think I would be good at doing X, and here are a few ideas I already have on X" is much more likely to lead somewhere.

[Maldridge422]

As someone who’s only knowledge of Minnesota is through seasons one and two of Fargo, I’m a little hesitant to comment on this thread. However, there’s a student on my team who will be attending school in Minnesota next year and is afraid of losing touch with FIRST. I’ve repeated told this student that Minnesota is a great place for FIRST because the massive growth of FRC teams opens up countless mentoring and volunteering opportunities. After reading this thread and seeing how hard it is even for MN alumni to get involved, I’m a lot less optimistic about an out-of-state student’s opportunities. I’ll echo the sentiments in this thread that open communication and transparency would help a lot in making the transition to districts. While my own district still has a long way to go, open meetings held both in person and over the internet have been critical in our move to districts.

[rzoeller]

As someone who’s only knowledge of Minnesota is through seasons one and two of Fargo, I’m a little hesitant to comment on this thread. However, there’s a student on my team who will be attending school in Minnesota next year and is afraid of losing touch with FIRST. I’ve repeated told this student that Minnesota is a great place for FIRST because the massive growth of FRC teams opens up countless mentoring and volunteering opportunities. After reading this thread and seeing how hard it is even for MN alumni to get involved, I’m a lot less optimistic about an out-of-state student’s opportunities. I’ll echo the sentiments in this thread that open communication and transparency would help a lot in making the transition to districts. While my own district still has a long way to go, open meetings held both in person and over the internet have been critical in our move to districts.

I'll PM you about some of the resources GOFIRST provides college students who are interested in volunteering. I know many of our students volunteer with teams directly instead of at regionals, and that there are many teams around the metro area. Additionally, GOFIRST holds a variety of Chairman's and Kickoff related events with the goal of helping MN FIRST teams. I'm not sure if this student is attending the U of M, but even if not, feel free to have them get in touch with us.

The above invitation to get in contact applies to everyone - if you have any questions, feel free to ask.

[Knufire]

Here are some real issues that need to be solved to move a region to districts:

...

Saying to your RPC "I want us to switch to districts" isn't likely to get you anywhere. Saying "I want us to switch to districts, I think I would be good at doing X, and here are a few ideas I already have on X" is much more likely to lead somewhere.


This is extremely insightful, and gives a great picutre of all that is needed behind the scenes for this to happen. I think if information like this was publically communicated from the RPC to the interested parties, I think a lot of the current animosity would be resolved.

I know GOFIRST runs the Summer Robotics Summit event; a community roundtable about the tranisition to districts and all the issues therein would, in my opinon, also help foster communication between the various groups in the state. I know members of the RPC have hosted roundtables at GOFIRST seminars before. I'd even be willing to personally go up and particpate.

[pmallikarjun]

As someone who’s only knowledge of Minnesota is through seasons one and two of Fargo, I’m a little hesitant to comment on this thread. However, there’s a student on my team who will be attending school in Minnesota next year and is afraid of losing touch with FIRST. I’ve repeated told this student that Minnesota is a great place for FIRST because the massive growth of FRC teams opens up countless mentoring and volunteering opportunities. After reading this thread and seeing how hard it is even for MN alumni to get involved, I’m a lot less optimistic about an out-of-state student’s opportunities. I’ll echo the sentiments in this thread that open communication and transparency would help a lot in making the transition to districts. While my own district still has a long way to go, open meetings held both in person and over the internet have been critical in our move to districts.

If your student is coming to UMN, please tell them to reach out to GOFIRST! We frequently get requests for mentors from metro area teams and are always looking for more FIRST alumni at the U to help these teams out. We also host a variety of off-season events (SRS, MN Splash, and various other workshops) that we always need more help with. I'm an out of state student at the U and I have been extensively involved with the FIRST community, though I have been more involved with FLL & FTC because that has been easier.


The point is if in practice they are in fact denying positions to qualified persons or using social media unfairly than focus on that.

Up until this year, GOFIRST has been informed of positions at the Minneapolis regionals that were not yet filled and asked for help. This year, the group never received that information, but an email was sent out to teams requesting volunteers for positions such as flag assistants, safety glasses attendants, and spare parts desk attendants (I received this information because I'm on an email list as a mentor for a local team). When GOFIRST has received these requests in the past, emails have been sent to our general membership and people with the availability have stepped up to volunteer. In January I asked if I should send an email to the membership during a planning committee meeting and was told to hold off because hep from the group probably wouldn't be needed. When it was realized that more volunteers were needed, I'm not sure why the students at UMN weren't asked for help.

[Brandon Holley]

Wow, what a thread.

Collin's points about mediation are spot on - this is a serious issue that shouldn't be swept under the rug. It's not about a single document, or event, or volunteer, its a serious cancer inside the FIRST culture of a region. If you haven't been a 20 something up and comer in FIRST, you have to understand that seeing the other perspective is going to be very difficult for you. If you haven't had the responsibility of running an event to ensure 60 teams have an amazing time, you have to understand that seeing the other perspective is going to be very difficult for you.

As a 28 year old, now running a team for almost a decade, event chairing official FRC events, I really empathize with the frustrations I'm hearing from the low-mid aged college students in FRC. I've been disrespected, ignored and singled-out. I've also overreacted, lost my cool and missed the point. I get it. I've been there. My team is filled with college-aged mentors with a sprinkle of upper 20 somethings, I understand the frustrations on both sides of this discussion right now.

As an early 20s FRC mentor and volunteer, FIRST regional committee and volunteerism felt a lot like an Old Boys Club. You needed to know someone, or you weren't going to be involved how you wanted to. It sucked, plain and simple.

Were my expectations probably overly ambitious? Yeah, most certainly. But this is FIRST - you have a massive base of extremely talented young people thats growing every year who are being programmed to change cultures and break through barriers. Can we seriously expect them to just take a back seat until someone deems them 'ready'? (Subsequently I think thats why reading that in a document, even if it was only distributed once is what set off this storm.)

I liken it to a performance review at any employer. If you're a young employee, your growth and career path is a topic that is extremely important. Managers need to ensure their employees have a clear understanding of what it will take to reach the next level. Where employees get disgruntled is when they don't have that visibility and there is infrequent communication about where they stand. This is is what I am hearing when I read the posts from the many college-aged volunteers/mentors in this thread. They basically don't see the path - whether it exists or not isn't the problem to focus on, its that these eager-to-help people don't see it.


Honestly, the best thing to happen to New England on a volunteerism front was Districts. The issue was forced and the floodgates were opened. The barriers were broken. We no longer could rely on Dave Goric to Head Ref every event, or Kate Pilotte/Jacob Komar to FTA every event. These are awesome key volunteers, but we needed to diversify and holes were filled.

The hard part is you have to make a leap at some point. You can inch the cliff closer and closer by training keys for years ahead of time, but at some point in time - the region will need to jump. You may not see exactly where the key volunteers will be coming from, but the point is if there is never a hole to fill, or even visibility through consistent communication, the potential key volunteers will never materialize.

I'm super proud of New England, and its why I'm bragging about it now. We have an awesome mix of veterans who KNOW THEIR SH*T, and a spectacular group of eager 20-somethings - each group is getting a chance to shine- and its awesome to watch.

-Brando

[Dibit1010]

This is a real concern for some teams. In the regional system, you can qualify for the World Championship after 1 event. With districts, it takes 3. This is a turn off for some mentors.



We try to balance that by having some events on Saturday-Sunday, helping limit the time off from work required by mentors.



It's a balance. There are positives and negatives to districts. I think that the positives greatly outweigh the negatives. I don't think that means that those negatives should be ignored.


Here in NC our district events are three days

[gblake]

To be honest, the issues seen in this thread are issues being seen across the entire world. The old guard establishment is too ingrained in their ways, and have had a very difficult time acting likes its 2016 instead of the 90's or even early. I see this first hand at large old tech companies, where everyone that makes the decisions has been at the company for 20+ years, and are so out of touch in an ever advancing world. Companies like Intel and Microsoft do massive layoffs (mostly of the younger crowd who work in the testing departments), and then wonder why their products keep getting worse and worse and they can't sell them. Companies like Google and Facebook are able to work around this as they have the young engineers and executives making the decisions, which allows them to adapt. You can see this same trend in the current presidential elections as well. Young people are so sick and tired of the establishment not caring about the future of our people that even though the candidates outside of the establishment are crazy they are still getting tons of votes, as the young population has seen that the current situation is not working out.
Have you ever studied history?

[PayneTrain]

Here in NC our district events are three days

Under that logic, regionals are 4 days.

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

The hard part is you have to make a leap at some point. You can inch the cliff closer and closer by training keys for years ahead of time, but at some point in time - the region will need to jump. You may not see exactly where the key volunteers will be coming from, but the point is if there is never a hole to fill, or even visibility through consistent communication, the potential key volunteers will never materialize.

This.
Change is always scary, even if it's something that other people have done successfully, because no people or groups of people are the same, so no solution is 100% universal. Sometimes though you just gotta grit your teeth and jump in. Make the decision. Commit.

I don't know how far along Minnesota is, but considering they've been talking about this for years, I assume they're not at square one. I could see the biggest reasonable roadblock would be money. How do we fund all the startup costs. Not sure how to help you there.

[Drakxii]

I'm going to go ahead and answer the original question: How do I help my area move to districts?

First, a few disclaimers: I am from Minnesota. I am not on the RPC, though I was on it for a year and know all of the members. I am a key volunteer, and I graduated college relatively recently (that is, I'm not an old man shooing rascally kids off my lawn).

Here are some real issues that need to be solved to move a region to districts:


Where are these events happening? I don't mean give me the names of the small handful of school who currently host offseason events. For Minnesota, we need at least two locations every week plus one for the district championships.
Someone needs to contact those locations. You need to be willing to drive to those locations and speak with representatives from the venue regarding contracts, timing, and logistics. Keep in mind that Minnesota is a large state and the proposed district spans the entire state.
At this point, probably go back to step one because a few of your original venues were taken off the list because they are unavailable when you need them.
Find funding for these events. Someone will need to go and speak to potential donors. Believe me, this will take a lot of potential donors. These donors also need to respect you and the organization (FIRST) that you represent.
Find volunteers. Let's assume for a second that Minnesota has enough volunteers total such that each volunteer works two events (because that horse has been overbeaten more times than I care to count). Now you need to coordinate getting the right volunteers for 13 events (up from 4). They need to be relatively local to the area and/or willing to travel for the event. Your VC for each event should probably know these volunteers by name and a good VC will also have the same qualities as a good manager- they know where you want to be in 5 years and are working with you to get there. A VC isn't a once-a-year or maybe-I'll-try-this-out position.
Coordinate the A/V aspect of the events. Who is webcasting each event? Who is running the sound board and projector? Do you have the equipment to do that? If not, go back to the fundraising step and then go through the process of acquiring equipment
Find a place that can store your field(s). For Minnesota, this is a number greater than or equal to 2.
Find people to maintain your field. It needs to be cleaned at least yearly, and things like road crates frequently need repair.
Go back to fundraising because you also need to purchase fields.
Figure out how to transport the field(s) to the events. The location Minnesota's field currently lives at between events doesn't allow anyone in under 18 and is only open during the workday M-F. The 2016 field also requires either two regular moving trucks or one semi, either requiring two drivers or someone with a Class A license (x13)

Those are the tasks I came up with in a few minutes of thinking, and I know there are a million more. Don't forget that the people we are currently asking to do these things are also currently responsible for 208 Minnesota teams and 4 regional events that need to continue running during the transition.

As much as I hate to say it, I don't think most college students would be good fits for many of these tasks. It's not because I think college students are immature or lazy, it's because of the time commitment many of these tasks require. College students should be focused first and foremost on college, and it becomes difficult to do that if you are trying to coordinate fundraising for 13 district events with executives from dozens to hundreds of companies. There is a reason that many have suggested that a 501(c)(3) is necessary: managing districts can easily be a full time job for a group of people.

That being said, these tasks can and should be divided amongst people. Regardless of who you are and where you come from, if one of these tasks sounds like something you would be good and and are interested in doing, talk to your RPC about how you can help out in that area.

Saying to your RPC "I want us to switch to districts" isn't likely to get you anywhere. Saying "I want us to switch to districts, I think I would be good at doing X, and here are a few ideas I already have on X" is much more likely to lead somewhere.

So, where could a potential volunteer find out how far Minnesota First has gotten with these issues and where they need help?

[Lil' Lavery]

So, where could a potential volunteer find out how far Minnesota First has gotten with these issues and where they need help?

http://www.firstinspires.org/find-local-support

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

http://www.firstinspires.org/find-local-support

Funny little quirk: why is there a Michigan, Michigan-Eastern, and Michigan-Western? All three list Gail Alpert, Regional Super-Director.

[gblake]

I'm going to go ahead and answer the original question: How do I help my area move to districts?
... +1000

This was a good introduction that hit the highlights.

Obviously, everything you quickly summarized in your message also contains a zillion additional layers/details. And the devils are definitely in the details, not in CD threads.

Knowing how much work there is to do outside of the brief weekends of the events surely puts some disagreements into perspective, and shines a light on just how many, many opportunities there are to work together, establish trust, and OBTW, prepare for the blips in the calendar that are the actual events.

Blake

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Al,

That was not directed at your post but the strictness of the policy. The person I quoted from twitter has been involved in MN FIRST FRC volunteering for many years. If they are that afraid of making any sort of post or comment, what does that say about our community?
Evan,
If possible, can you ask this person to PM me, I am trying to understand and want to help alleviate the stress if I can?
Al

[Knufire]

So, where could a potential volunteer find out how far Minnesota First has gotten with these issues and where they need help?

20435
http://www.mnfirst.org/contact

20436
http://www.firstinspires.org/find-local-support

Mark, I believe, is also the 2015 Woodie Flowers Award recipient.

[ehochstein]

Evan,
If possible, can you ask this person to PM me, I am trying to understand and want to help alleviate the stress if I can?
Al

I'm certain they are monitoring this thread, however I'll share this message with them as well.

[E3 Robotics Ctr]

Sometimes districts are annoying. It's one more step to get to St. Louis

I thought the same thing, that was until Indiana jumped on board with Districts. And I have to say I enjoy them much more.
1. It helps those teams with lower funds attend more than one tournament.
2. It allows the Progression of Districts, District Champs, then Worlds.

I liked that it that it could cut down on the huge influx of teams attending Worlds. (I think it was 25%+ FRC teams attend world, with 600 teams spots and 200 of those got in because of a wait list..... I mean really? You are not filling all of the FRC spots and still you expand FRC but not JrFLL, FLL, or FTC numbers at all?)

Sorry back on track now.

In Ontario the large majority of key volunteers (FTA, LRI, Head Ref) are either a college students or have recently entered the workforce. These folks are some of the best volunteers I have ever encountered in all of FRC. I was just at the UMass-Dartmouth district event where I was blown away by the energy and skill displayed by the young volunteers working the event. In addition, I'm responsible for recruiting our key volunteers for VEX Worlds. 39 of our 73 key volunteers (MC/Announcers, Field Techs, Head Refs) are FRC alums in university or have recently entered the workforce. FRC alumni are a passionate and dedicated group who can most easily relate to the pressures that students go through in this program; I have a hard time seeing why anyone wouldn't want to channel the energy and talent these young people bring and use it to sustain and grow their local events.

This is 100% ridiculous.. Alumni in college are some of the most hardworking and understanding of the FIRST program.
"Rare " are not college students that hold roles such as:
over 6 FTA's in Michigan
over 20 Robot Inspectors in CA
over 3 regional committee members in Southern California
over 20 senior mentors being college aged
over 20 referees
More things like MC's, Game announcers, ect are also widely filled by college students. These numbers are just specific to the location I mentioned, these positions for college students are present nearly everywhere (except Minnesota). College students do well in this situation since they are the MOST passionate, understand the teams, and know the program. Alumni give back by volunteering since a lot do not have the time or resources to mentor.

I'm 2 years out of high school, I have filled nearly every key volunteer role you can imagine.
So many of my colleagues in FIRST CA that hold key roles are young college students, and that's because our state as a whole realizes that this generation is preparing to take over FIRST and we are utilizing them as volunteers that have experience inside teams.
The problem is that a lot of people play the "older age" card as a "maturity" card. The two are not mutually exclusive.


I love that there are those people like Karthik and Pauline Tasci and countless others that have the passion that creates such great young leadership! At the same time I recognize that not everyone in college age/20's has that type of passion, dedication and maturity it takes to be in a Key Role or a leader within FIRST & it's events. I know several people that are still a Junior or Senior in high school that have the ability to be a Key Role person RIGHT NOW! while at the same time I know people older that do not have what it takes to be in those Key Role spots. I know there is always going to be the people that hold the idea of "you are too young to know/understand/be good for this role" I still see that as a shrinking group of people as the Leadership does become more of a younger generation.

I'm going to go ahead and answer the original question: How do I help my area move to districts?

First, a few disclaimers: I am from Minnesota. I am not on the RPC, though I was on it for a year and know all of the members. I am a key volunteer, and I graduated college relatively recently (that is, I'm not an old man shooing rascally kids off my lawn).

As much as I hate to say it, I don't think most college students would be good fits for many of these tasks. It's not because I think college students are immature or lazy, it's because of the time commitment many of these tasks require. College students should be focused first and foremost on college, and it becomes difficult to do that if you are trying to coordinate fundraising for 13 district events with executives from dozens to hundreds of companies. There is a reason that many have suggested that a 501(c)(3) is necessary: managing districts can easily be a full time job for a group of people.

That being said, these tasks can and should be divided amongst people. Regardless of who you are and where you come from, if one of these tasks sounds like something you would be good and and are interested in doing, talk to your RPC about how you can help out in that area.

Saying to your RPC "I want us to switch to districts" isn't likely to get you anywhere. Saying "I want us to switch to districts, I think I would be good at doing X, and here are a few ideas I already have on X" is much more likely to lead somewhere.


So much this response! Districts takes a LOT of work. It needs to be something that everyone works on together on and asks What can I do to help make this move to Districts happen, along with sitting all at the same table to give input and ideas.

When is comes down to it, remember what FIRST is really about, it is about those students and helping to inspire them, we are just the volunteers at this point helping to create that path for them to get to their goals easier.

[plnyyanks]

When is comes down to it, remember what FIRST is really about, it is about those students and helping to inspire them, we are just the volunteers at this point helping to create that path for them to get to their goals easier.

QFT.

[Drakxii]

http://www.firstinspires.org/find-local-support

20435
http://www.mnfirst.org/contact

20436
http://www.firstinspires.org/find-local-support

Mark, I believe, is also the 2015 Woodie Flowers Award recipient.

So... No quick way to know at a glance where MN FIRST is on the path to districts?

[E3 Robotics Ctr]

Wow, what a thread.

Collin's points about mediation are spot on - this is a serious issue that shouldn't be swept under the rug. It's not about a single document, or event, or volunteer, its a serious cancer inside the FIRST culture of a region. If you haven't been a 20 something up and comer in FIRST, you have to understand that seeing the other perspective is going to be very difficult for you. If you haven't had the responsibility of running an event to ensure 60 teams have an amazing time, you have to understand that seeing the other perspective is going to be very difficult for you.

As a 28 year old, now running a team for almost a decade, event chairing official FRC events, I really empathize with the frustrations I'm hearing from the low-mid aged college students in FRC. I've been disrespected, ignored and singled-out. I've also overreacted, lost my cool and missed the point. I get it. I've been there. My team is filled with college-aged mentors with a sprinkle of upper 20 somethings, I understand the frustrations on both sides of this discussion right now.

As an early 20s FRC mentor and volunteer, FIRST regional committee and volunteerism felt a lot like an Old Boys Club. You needed to know someone, or you weren't going to be involved how you wanted to. It sucked, plain and simple.

Were my expectations probably overly ambitious? Yeah, most certainly. But this is FIRST - you have a massive base of extremely talented young people thats growing every year who are being programmed to change cultures and break through barriers. Can we seriously expect them to just take a back seat until someone deems them 'ready'? (Subsequently I think thats why reading that in a document, even if it was only distributed once is what set off this storm.)

I liken it to a performance review at any employer. If you're a young employee, your growth and career path is a topic that is extremely important. Managers need to ensure their employees have a clear understanding of what it will take to reach the next level. Where employees get disgruntled is when they don't have that visibility and there is infrequent communication about where they stand. This is is what I am hearing when I read the posts from the many college-aged volunteers/mentors in this thread. They basically don't see the path - whether it exists or not isn't the problem to focus on, its that these eager-to-help people don't see it.


Honestly, the best thing to happen to New England on a volunteerism front was Districts. The issue was forced and the floodgates were opened. The barriers were broken. We no longer could rely on Dave Goric to Head Ref every event, or Kate Pilotte/Jacob Komar to FTA every event. These are awesome key volunteers, but we needed to diversify and holes were filled.

The hard part is you have to make a leap at some point. You can inch the cliff closer and closer by training keys for years ahead of time, but at some point in time - the region will need to jump. You may not see exactly where the key volunteers will be coming from, but the point is if there is never a hole to fill, or even visibility through consistent communication, the potential key volunteers will never materialize.

I'm super proud of New England, and its why I'm bragging about it now. We have an awesome mix of veterans who KNOW THEIR SH*T, and a spectacular group of eager 20-somethings - each group is getting a chance to shine- and its awesome to watch.

-Brando


I can relate to this very much. Being in the program now for 16, going on 17 years. And being an assistant FLL coach starting in 8th grade. With still being one of the "young ones" in my 20's and even after running tournament for the past 6 years I still understand getting pushed aside due to age, unless people know my history within the program.

Can it be annoying or frustrating at sometimes, yes. Now I don't let those comments bother me and I just get on with what I am doing. I know that I have a lot to offer my community with my experience in FIRST now it is just making sure I use that in my most positive impact that I can.

I think the biggest thing that has helped me to start to break into the so called Old Boys Club, is to become part of committee and boards within the local FIRST community, this has helped to build connections for my self and others like me that are some of the younger generation.

And let me tell you I am blessed living in Indiana and growing up with Veterans, and knowing and seeing teams since 2000 like 234 Cyber Blue, 45 TechnoKats, 47 Chief Delphi, (Before they were a website), and 71 Team Hammond win on Einstein in 2001 live in person while I was still in FLL. I got to met the Andy Bakers, and Chris Fultz as well as countless other now veterans of the FIRST Robotics world when I was very young. While they may not remember me, they did have an impact on why I continue to do FIRST robotics today.

I will ALWAYS continue to learn from these people that came before me, when in passing, conversations I might have had with them, and even seeing how they handle situations at events when they arise.

So I urge my age group in college and in our 20's. Be more like a sponge, and soak up as much as you can from those veterans in your area that were cornerstones and pillars within the FIRST community. Those that have those core values instilled within everything they do. I know if we do that now, we will be able to create a better FIRST community for all, when we end up becoming the "Old Boys Club" and the generation below us starts to yell at us that "you don't understand us at all"

[Lil' Lavery]

So... No quick way to know at a glance where MN FIRST is on the path to districts?

Sure there is. Reach out and contact the people involved. It's no more difficult than posting a message on Chief Delphi.

[Jsteel]

Interesting thread. There obviously is a lot more going on with this situation. As a FIRST mentor & volunteer from the West Coast, who has no idea what is going on in Minnesota, I wouldn't have any problems handing out that document to potential volunteers. I might tweak one or two lines if I was being picky, but overall it sure didn't come across to me as the negative approach that many are reading into it.

Like I said, the must be a lot more to the backstory here in order to create this negative trust level.

[cadandcookies]

I've been thinking about how I want to respond to this thread since it popped up yesterday. I have about a million things I want to say, some of which I've been meaning to say since I first saw the document around this time last year, some of which are in response to things people have been saying in this thread. I'm going to try to get through all of them, but first, I feel like it's necessary to highlight a couple of posts which have been somewhat lost or ignored in this thread; specifically from the only other two GOFIRST people who are familiar with exactly how this document was presented to us and our immediate reactions to it:
Those people are Ryan (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1562502&postcount=99)and Prath (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1562502&postcount=99). I can confirm that they're both who they say they are and that Ryan's version of events is pretty much how things went down from our view. I don't think either of them covered exactly how we responded, which was that we got together and wrote up some feedback from the document (some of it positive, some of it critical). We sent that to the presenter and related parties, and then we moved on. According to Jon, the document was discarded after that, which is unfortunate, because even though it has some issues it still fills a very important role of setting clear expectations (even if it has some issues).

Please re-read their posts before continuing if you plan on continuing to talk about the document, regardless of whether you read the rest of my post.

Now, strap yourself in, because I'm going to try to respond to every post in this thread that I feel a need to (ie, someone else hasn't responded with almost exactly what I would say).

One thing I would also like to highlight is Jon's post:
Would it help move the discussion onto more productive grounds if people knew this doc was killed over a year ago, and only distributed once? Seriously, everything about the doc is litterally :deadhorse:

This document is around a year old at this point. People change, opinions change. I don't see it as hugely valuable to dig into this document and level accusations against MN FIRST or the RPC here. Without these people, many of the FIRST alumni here in MN would not be FIRST alumni, including myself.


As to maturity, that is also judged by how a volunteer presents themselves outside of FIRST events as well as when volunteering. While social media seems to be a benign entity, it is not and it is public. When a volunteer expecting a better role, complains in public, degrades staff or committee decisions and purports to know "the real reason" behind certain activities, that is never a secret. Volunteer coordinators need to know that they have the best person in each position because we are putting students at risk if we don't.

I completely agree with you on a lot of this-- it's important for trust to exist between the volunteer and the volunteer coordinator, and part of that is definitely how someone handles themselves at and outside of events. That being said, I think there has been a tendency to over-react in the past to things that don't really warrant any sort of reaction at all-- I remember getting a call last year about a tweet I made about being assigned at Champs before I was assigned at regionals. Not "Wow, the RPC is so incompetent for not assigning me," but just a "Huh, that's interesting (about being assigned to champs first)" Honestly through the entire thing I was just sort of shell shocked, because it felt like a huge reaction to something totally innocuous. I don't feel like that's a unique situation here in Minnesota. ilovepineapples highlighted some stories from volunteers here, and unfortunately I can say that I recognize many of those stories.


While many posters, presenting themselves as knowledgeable students in Minnesota, are arguing that the Minnesota committee is preventing a move to districts, you are not in position to know what the committee is doing. You have no knowledge of what it takes to move to districts, the restrictions placed on the committee by FIRST, the state and local jurisdictions, the financial needs or the on the demands for volunteers, including local committees. If you think that the committee is doing a bad job, I would point to the explosive growth in Minnesota, now at 208 teams. I would point to four regional events serving well over 50 teams at each event. I would point to the high standards for volunteers, especially judging staff and inspections. I would point to the expectation that more events are needed and the work they are doing to assist Iowa and Wisconsin. I would point specifically to the great LRI and inspection staff I observe at MN events. I would point to the preparation of rookie teams that allow them to have a great first experience. I think that Minnesota is doing a spectacular job for FIRST and I hold them up as an example for others to emulate.
It is rare to find someone who is still in college or recently entering the workforce to be able to handle the stress and demands of any Key Volunteer position. It is actually hard to find that in someone who has been around for years.

Speaking for myself and not GOFIRST or anyone else, my disagreements with the current establishment in Minnesota are not born out of disrespect for the incredible things they've done for our program or from a desire to "climb the ladder" and usurp the existing order. I think think there's a misconception that some of the alumni posting here (probably including me) think that we know it all, that we have THE ONE TRUE SOLUTION, that we don't understand the complexities of of running a team or an event. In part, this is true. I don't know what goes on in RPC meetings, and I don't know everything that goes into districts or regionals. If you feel that I've misrepresented my knowledge of these things, I apologize. The closest I've come to organizing an FRC event is being part of the planning committee for one of 2220's week zero events, which is on a different scale entirely from a double regional, but was certainly enough to impress on me an appreciation for how difficult it is to run an event. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm very aware of what I don't know, and have expressed (publicly and privately) a willingness to learn and grow. Returning to the point I was trying to get at though, I think that the perspective I have is a much more common situation that someone explicitly trying to climb the ladder. I firmly believe that if you treat alumni like the adults we are, and assume that we want to help, we can and will deliver. My belief is vindicated by stories from Michigan, New England, Ontario, and California, among other places.

I don't know if it's me you're referring to with this statement, but if it is I'd really encourage you to actually read what I've been saying-- and know that my disagreements are based on both the knowledge I have now (flawed though it may be) and a deep respect for the teams and everyone involved. If you (or anyone else reading this) feels that I haven't been fair in my posts on districts here in MN, I'd love to hear it in public or in private. A lot of my energy goes into volunteering, mentoring, and running training events, but some small percentage of it still ends up in posts here, so if you think that can be redirected in a more efficient way let me know.



I wrote that folks who feel they are in different camps need to flush the past, and start talking to each other (not sniping in forums).


This is a lot of what's been holding me up posting in this thread. I'm tired of talking circles around making changes. I wanted to hold up until I could actually contribute something that would move this topic forward in a constructive way. The amount of MN drama that's been on here recently has been unpleasant for just about everybody involved, but I think it's something necessary to actually healing the situation here in MN. I've seen stories posted that I recognize and from people that I didn't know were running into issues here as well. I think for a lot of people here (who have posted and who haven't) it's a breath of fresh air to realize that they aren't alone in feeling like something is wrong here.


I don't believe I'm one of those students who has said that the Minnesota Committee is preventing a move to districts. I know for sure that I'm not one of those students who believes the Minnesota Committee is doing a bad job, to the contrary, I believe they've done a great job as evidenced by some facts you reference.

I would, however, like to be in a position to know what the committee is doing. Their decisions affect my involvement with FIRST, and the involvement of everybody else in Minnesota.

You are mostly correct in stating that I have no knowledge "of what it takes to move to districts, the restrictions placed on the committee by FIRST, the state and local jurisdictions, the financial needs or the on the demands for volunteers, including local committees." I say mostly correct because I do have some knowledge, but not nearly enough. I think everyone in the state would benefit from having a broad knowledge of the situation that MN FIRST is dealing with. There is no reason, that I can see, that would make secrecy a requirement.

If the general population has a broad understanding of the situation, we will be more equipped to help. If we understand what is going wrong, we can become a part of the solutuon. If the general public understands the issues, we can provide accurate, and educated feedback with an understanding for how difficult some issues are.

The fact is, people don't understand how the transition to districts will work, nor the problems associated with such a transition. Once that problem is resolved, we can start making real change happen.

I can not agree more with this post. FRC here in Minnesota is absolutely filled to the brim with passionate people who want to be a part of making this program a success. Some of these people are capable of volunteering in key roles, some aren't. Some might work at companies that don't currently support FIRST in Minnesota, some might know where we can find space to store fields and host events. These aren't tasks that should be undertaken alone by the current RPC-- but in order for the broader MN FRC community to help, we need to know what the issues are-- Bryan Herbst's post was the closest I've ever seen to that.



As much as I hate to say it, I don't think most college students would be good fits for many of these tasks. It's not because I think college students are immature or lazy, it's because of the time commitment many of these tasks require. College students should be focused first and foremost on college, and it becomes difficult to do that if you are trying to coordinate fundraising for 13 district events with executives from dozens to hundreds of companies. There is a reason that many have suggested that a 501(c)(3) is necessary: managing districts can easily be a full time job for a group of people.

That being said, these tasks can and should be divided amongst people. Regardless of who you are and where you come from, if one of these tasks sounds like something you would be good and and are interested in doing, talk to your RPC about how you can help out in that area.

Saying to your RPC "I want us to switch to districts" isn't likely to get you anywhere. Saying "I want us to switch to districts, I think I would be good at doing X, and here are a few ideas I already have on X" is much more likely to lead somewhere.

Bryan, I completely agree-- there are tasks on here that college students are not a good fit for. There are also ones that we are absolutely a perfect fit for-- want help with funding? We have literally trained hundreds of students to track down funding for their teams and present in corporate environments. Volunteers? We've already covered that discussion. Field maintenance? Sounds like a great thing for students to do on weekends we aren't volunteering. Webcasting? I know of several alumni who have some very cool ideas on how to improve and run webcasts.

We're very much agreed that this work needs to be divided, but it needs to actually be communicated first, ideally through semi-official channels. I think Ryan hit the nail on the head when he said that the majority of teams probably don't know much about districts, much less what they can do to help.

Thank you for this post-- it is the clearest communication I've seen on what we need to do to go to districts here in MN.

This is extremely insightful, and gives a great picutre of all that is needed behind the scenes for this to happen. I think if information like this was publically communicated from the RPC to the interested parties, I think a lot of the current animosity would be resolved.

I know GOFIRST runs the Summer Robotics Summit event; a community roundtable about the tranisition to districts and all the issues therein would, in my opinon, also help foster communication between the various groups in the state. I know members of the RPC have hosted roundtables at GOFIRST seminars before. I'd even be willing to personally go up and particpate.

As someone who is part of planning the Summer Robotics Summit, after some of the previous discussion on here and elsewhere, I am 100% on board with this. I'm really hoping we can make it happen and start making progress at the least towards educating teams on districts.


When is comes down to it, remember what FIRST is really about, it is about those students and helping to inspire them, we are just the volunteers at this point helping to create that path for them to get to their goals easier.

Brian, I've agreed with a lot of what you've said, but I just wanted to highlight this because it's really core to what I and I think a lot of others believe: I am here to help and inspire these students, and that can take many forms, from volunteering to mentoring. Ultimately that's where I think almost all of us are coming from, and it behooves everyone involved to remember that.


As a final remark, I'd like to reiterate what I've said before: for all I disagree with the people who are currently running FIRST in MN, they still have my absolute respect. I find it disappointing that people have been taking some cheap shots (subtle and not so much) at their character. But my respect does not mean constant deference. I like to say that liking someone, respecting someone, and being willing to disagree with them are completely separate things. Disagreement is not inherently disrespectful.

Well, I think I just beat my personal best for post length. I'm sorry if you don't like reading; apparently I just really like writing (that's almost a chairman's essay and a half of content).

[Ginger Power]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to cadandcookies again.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Re:Tanis see above...
Bryan,
I looked at your list and thought immediately as to what MN actually needs. So if we think about needing to satisfy 208 teams with at least two events plus a district championship, and figuring on 30 teams/district event...
That would require 14 events. Over a six week season, that would be more than 2 events each weekend plus the Champs at the end of the season. Thinking about growth and including Dakota teams, let's bump that to 16 events. So that means MN First has to find a lot of venues/high schools and cover maybe 300 volunteer positions each week. The numbers start to get staggering don't they?
I am not on the MN RCP, I am just brainstorming what it will take because Brian's post started me down this exercise. So going into something I am more familiar with, we would need 15 inspectors on average per week including three LRIs. We certainly cannot ask people to work every week but say they can commit to two events, that makes a need for about 45 inspectors including 9 LRIs. Then there is the need to provide meals. 300 people needing just four meals per weekend (It is actually more than that) adds up to 7600 meals including the Champs. Throw a number at that ($10/plate but likely more) and you get $76,000 just for meals. Add to that venue costs, cleanup, fields, scales, and a need for 900 volunteers, etc. I think people can see this is something that can't be accomplished overnight.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

I am making a stand alone post here because I do want to emphasize this statement.

Maturity does not go hand in hand with age. I have had many FIRST Alumni working as Inspectors. I depend on those people to help fill needs at all events including the Championship. I hope that those who have worked with me know how I cherish their involvement. However, inspections are a very difficult volunteer position, as is reffing and judging. (I think tech judging for FLL is harder than FRC inspections) They are hard because of the skills needed and the unique ability to work with students and mentors. These positions are the front line of FIRST events. You want the best possible candidates for these positions because your whole season is on the line. Volunteer Coordinators choose these positions carefully because of the impact on teams. I have team members shadow me at events all the time. The universal response is "I can't keep up with you and I could never do this." Well the truth is many of them can and do. However, for me (parent speaking) family, school, and career are more important that anything else including volunteering at a FIRST event. I would rather you get those parts of your life in order than to work for me as an inspector. You will have more fun and I know you will be a much better inspector.

[Alan Anderson]

...the way that the document is written comes across to a younger audience as command laden and aggressive. Granted, college students take most things as "aggressive", but that's a different topic :rolleyes:

Maybe we should bring that topic to the front. It seems to me that the angry response of a group of people is based on that perception of aggressiveness. I admit to being completely unfamiliar with that group's context, so I have no way to understand their reaction beyond reading the words presented here. With only those words, I can see this situation as kind of a litmus test -- if you believe Minnesota is trying to push you away from volunteering based on what you read into them, your mindset might make you a poor choice for a Key Volunteer position. If I knew more about the reality of the situation (beyond a laundry list of second-hand comments from an anonymous poster), I might have a different impression of what's going on.

It is a very poorly worded document. I wonder if they even ran it past a couple of college aged students to see what they thought about it. You know, like beta-testing.

It looks like that's exactly what happened:

The document was emailed to me and another leader on Bison Robotics last year, I believe right around the time (possibly before) the presentation was given to GOFIRST. Feedback on the document was requested and provided,...

But then the original untested version got "leaked":

...and the document was shown to members of Bison Robotics by myself.

The same thing probably happened with the GOFIRST group. The difference is that people there seem to have thought it was an official directive from the MN FIRST leadership, instead of a draft intended for review and comment.

[Ginger Power]

I showed it to Bison Robotics after making the changes and getting it checked out. Nothing was leaked to my knowledge. I worked with the people who made the document because it was requested of me. I sincerely wish the conversation would shift from "offensive" words on a sheet of paper to the real issues. I highly doubt the members of GOFIRST represented here actually care about how that document is worded. They may have found the presentation off putting, but I doubt they really even care about that. I'd be willing to bet that their biggest concerns include being able to volunteer in a role of their choice, *and being able to talk about things freely online without repercussion.

Let's start talking about important issues, and get over the wording of a dead document.

To start things off, I reccomend reading Tanis' post. Brilliantly stated and a great response to the original question: "How do I help move my area to districts?". It was brilliant, but didn't cover everything. I'd love to see people continue to add information. Hopefully the RPC will take notice, and the community will be informed, and we can end this argument once and for all.

*Things that are in good taste, but potentially controversial

[pmallikarjun]

Maybe we should bring that topic to the front. It seems to me that the angry response of a group of people is based on that perception of aggressiveness. I admit to being completely unfamiliar with that group's context, so I have no way to understand their reaction beyond reading the words presented here. With only those words, I can see this situation as kind of a litmus test -- if you believe Minnesota is trying to push you away from volunteering based on what you read into them, your mindset might make you a poor choice for a Key Volunteer position. If I knew more about the reality of the situation (beyond a laundry list of second-hand comments from an anonymous poster), I might have a different impression of what's going on.

To re-iterate what Ryan said earlier, the document itself (all on its own) is not by itself off putting to the group. It was the presentation of the document (and the tone of the presentation) at a meeting not intended for that purpose.


But then the original untested version got "leaked": ...
The same thing probably happened with the GOFIRST group. The difference is that people there seem to have thought it was an official directive from the MN FIRST leadership, instead of a draft intended for review and comment.

The document was never distributed to GOFIRST members by the group's leadership. The only members (FIRST alumni and non-FIRST alumni) who saw the document were given it directly by the speaker at the meeting or were leaders of the group who did not attend the meeting and were emailed a copy of the document. So, the document was never "leaked"

I highly doubt the members of GOFIRST represented here actually care about how that document is worded. They may have found the presentation off putting, but I doubt they really even care about that. I'd be willing to bet that their biggest concerns include being able to volunteer in a role of their choice, *and being able to talk about things freely online without repercussion.

*Things that are in good taste, but potentially controversial

YES. YES. YES. This. So much this. Thank you Ryan!! I would really like to have a conversation about how we can bring back the FIRST alumni who feel disillusioned about volunteering in MN and get them involved again. Not even in a key role, but just in a role that makes them feel that their knowledge of FIRST is being utilized and they are able to give back to the program that meant so much to them in high school.

Let's start talking about important issues, and get over the wording of a dead document.

To start things off, I reccomend reading Tanis' post. Brilliantly stated and a great response to the original question: "How do I help move my area to districts?". It was brilliant, but didn't cover everything. I'd love to see people continue to add information. Hopefully the RPC will take notice, and the community will be informed, and we can end this argument once and for all.
I agree. To add to this, it would also be great to talk about how college students can play some (maybe small) part in helping move an area to districts. It's true that college students cannot do all of the things Bryan listed on their own, but I think they would be willing to assist with many of them and participate on subcommittees designed for a specific task associated with moving an area to districts and helping an area succeed in districts.

[Mr V]

Re:Tanis see above...
Bryan,
I looked at your list and thought immediately as to what MN actually needs. So if we think about needing to satisfy 208 teams with at least two events plus a district championship, and figuring on 30 teams/district event...
That would require 14 events. Over a six week season, that would be more than 2 events each weekend plus the Champs at the end of the season. Thinking about growth and including Dakota teams, let's bump that to 16 events. So that means MN First has to find a lot of venues/high schools and cover maybe 300 volunteer positions each week. The numbers start to get staggering don't they?
I am not on the MN RCP, I am just brainstorming what it will take because Brian's post started me down this exercise. So going into something I am more familiar with, we would need 15 inspectors on average per week including three LRIs. We certainly cannot ask people to work every week but say they can commit to two events, that makes a need for about 45 inspectors including 9 LRIs. Then there is the need to provide meals. 300 people needing just four meals per weekend (It is actually more than that) adds up to 7600 meals including the Champs. Throw a number at that ($10/plate but likely more) and you get $76,000 just for meals. Add to that venue costs, cleanup, fields, scales, and a need for 900 volunteers, etc. I think people can see this is something that can't be accomplished overnight.

You are certainly correct that becoming part of the district system is not something that can be done overnight, there is a lot of leg work that needs to be done to lay the foundation.

The sweet spot for district sizing is 36-40 teams based on our experience in the PNW. If MN was to get on this right away they could possibly pull it off in time to do 12 40 team events to provide enough capacity w/o the need for more than 2 events per week. Assuming of course that the venue scheduling can be worked out to make that happen, which is not an easy feat. It does need to be done the school year before the switch due to the fact that it can be difficult to connect with the right people during the summer and by the start of the school year they can already have many events on their schedule.

For inspectors at a district event I try to have 1 inspector for every 3 or 3.5 teams for the load-in and inspection night. That means 12 or 13 inspectors for that day. In the PNW our load in night (day 0) runs 5-9:30 and our goal, which we some times make is to have everyone inspected that night. The reality of course is that some teams have to make significant changes and we usually have a fair number of teams that need to be completed the morning of day 1. Knock on wood but we have always been able to have everyone ready for their 1st match. Because the demand drops off significantly many of those day 0 inspectors transition to other volunteer roles, CSA, Machine Shop, Que, Ref, Field reset are some of the other positions that they fill. Others go back to working with their team. A handful will return for the pre-finals inspections mid Day 2.

With that number of inspectors you have the ability to assign an inspector to a team that needs a lot of work and ensure that they keep moving forward with the deadline in place.

As far as the food for volunteers there are a number of advantages to being in the district which drops the costs significantly. I know for many of the venues we have used for Regionals in the PNW have strict contracts with one or a few catering companies that you are locked into using for any food in the venue. The venue contracts also usually disallow participants from bringing food into the venue.

That changes significantly when the event takes place in a HS or University. A number of the locations that we use have culinary programs. So they will cater the volunteer food and at a much more reasonable cost that the for profit companies. We have also found that many of the host teams are able to find someone in their community that donate some or all of the food, or at least offer it at a serious discount.

For the participants, usually the school's lunch room is open and teams are free to bring in their own food. Most will have their concession stands open and a few invited a food truck or two giving the participants and spectators a wider variety at a much lower cost.

In our first season in the district system it worked out that the direct out of pocket costs for the 10 district events was roughly equal to the cost of the DCMP which was a long time Regional location which was not the most expensive venue that had been used in our area.

Just to reiterate that, 10 yes 10 district events at a similar cost as a Regional at a moderately priced stadium. For most teams that also means 2 District events at a cost similar to the one Regional. For some teams it is less because they can stay at home for one event and only need 2 nights of accommodations vs 3 and the hotels near the suburban events are often much cheaper than the usual down town location of stadiums. Yes some teams see their costs go up because they do have to travel to both events and suddenly some of those traditionally "one and done" team have earned a spot at DCMP.

[ehochstein]

You are certainly correct that becoming part of the district system is not something that can be done overnight, there is a lot of leg work that needs to be done to lay the foundation.

The sweet spot for district sizing is 36-40 teams based on our experience in the PNW. If MN was to get on this right away they could possibly pull it off in time to do 12 40 team events to provide enough capacity w/o the need for more than 2 events per week. Assuming of course that the venue scheduling can be worked out to make that happen, which is not an easy feat. It does need to be done the school year before the switch due to the fact that it can be difficult to connect with the right people during the summer and by the start of the school year they can already have many events on their schedule.

For inspectors at a district event I try to have 1 inspector for every 3 or 3.5 teams for the load-in and inspection night. That means 12 or 13 inspectors for that day. In the PNW our load in night (day 0) runs 5-9:30 and our goal, which we some times make is to have everyone inspected that night. The reality of course is that some teams have to make significant changes and we usually have a fair number of teams that need to be completed the morning of day 1. Knock on wood but we have always been able to have everyone ready for their 1st match. Because the demand drops off significantly many of those day 0 inspectors transition to other volunteer roles, CSA, Machine Shop, Que, Ref, Field reset are some of the other positions that they fill. Others go back to working with their team. A handful will return for the pre-finals inspections mid Day 2.

With that number of inspectors you have the ability to assign an inspector to a team that needs a lot of work and ensure that they keep moving forward with the deadline in place.

As far as the food for volunteers there are a number of advantages to being in the district which drops the costs significantly. I know for many of the venues we have used for Regionals in the PNW have strict contracts with one or a few catering companies that you are locked into using for any food in the venue. The venue contracts also usually disallow participants from bringing food into the venue.

That changes significantly when the event takes place in a HS or University. A number of the locations that we use have culinary programs. So they will cater the volunteer food and at a much more reasonable cost that the for profit companies. We have also found that many of the host teams are able to find someone in their community that donate some or all of the food, or at least offer it at a serious discount.

For the participants, usually the school's lunch room is open and teams are free to bring in their own food. Most will have their concession stands open and a few invited a food truck or two giving the participants and spectators a wider variety at a much lower cost.

In our first season in the district system it worked out that the direct out of pocket costs for the 10 district events was roughly equal to the cost of the DCMP which was a long time Regional location which was not the most expensive venue that had been used in our area.

Just to reiterate that, 10 yes 10 district events at a similar cost as a Regional at a moderately priced stadium. For most teams that also means 2 District events at a cost similar to the one Regional. For some teams it is less because they can stay at home for one event and only need 2 nights of accommodations vs 3 and the hotels near the suburban events are often much cheaper than the usual down town location of stadiums. Yes some teams see their costs go up because they do have to travel to both events and suddenly some of those traditionally "one and done" team have earned a spot at DCMP.

Could you share with us how you handle the movement of fields throughout the season? Do you rent a semi truck each week or do you have some means of transportation donated?

[gblake]

...

...
But then the original untested version got "leaked"
...
The document was never distributed to GOFIRST members by the group's leadership. The only members (FIRST alumni and non-FIRST alumni) who saw the document were given it directly by the speaker at the meeting or were leaders of the group who did not attend the meeting and were emailed a copy of the document. So, the document was never "leaked".
...The leak Alan was referring to *might* have been the one that happened at the start of this thread. And, even if he wasn't referring to the start of this thread, I will.

Let's be 100% clear: Regardless of whether the document was or wasn't "leaked" before this thread began, it certainly is "leaked" now. It was used as an important point in message that started this thread.

If that was a misstep, someone should own it. If it wasn't a misstep, progress in some areas is going to be harder.

Blake

[plnyyanks]

Could you share with us how you handle the movement of fields throughout the season? Do you rent a semi truck each week or do you have some means of transportation donated?

I won't speak for the PNW, but I know New England has a warehouse where they store fields during the offseason. During the season, they use PODS storage units (http://www.pods.com/) to transport the field (one field fits in four PODS) between events. Also note that New England uses a full set of road cases and ships all the carpet to be used in a season in the PODS, which not every district does, and this increases the shipping requirements.

The PODS usually get dropped off at the venue school a few days before the event and sit in the parking lot until they get unpacked and set up. After the field gets torn down, the PODS get loaded, and the company takes them to the next venue.

[ehochstein]

The leak Alan was referring to *might* have been the one that happened at the start of this thread. And, even if he wasn't referring to the start of this thread, I will.

Let's be 100% clear: Regardless of whether the document was or wasn't "leaked" before this thread began, it certainly is "leaked" now. It was used as an important point in message that started this thread.

If that was a misstep, someone should own it. If it wasn't a misstep, progress in some areas is going to be harder.

Blake

While this is not the topic of the thread, I feel the need to post and respectfully disagree with you on this one.

Based off of what I have read from Ryan, Prath and Nick, it seems this document was handed out into the public domain to FIRST students and non-FIRST students at a "Meet an Engineer" type meeting hosted for all students at their University. You can't "leak" a document in the public domain. As to why it wasn't posted here earlier and when it was, it was done from an anonymous account? I would like to point at a previous post of mine (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1562527&postcount=112) in this thread.

I won't speak for the PNW, but I know New England has a warehouse where they store fields during the offseason. During the season, they use PODS storage units (http://www.pods.com/) to transport the field (one field fits in four PODS) between events. Also note that New England uses a full set of road cases and ships all the carpet to be used in a season in the PODS, which not every district does, and this increases the shipping requirements.

The PODS usually get dropped off at the venue school a few days before the event and sit in the parking lot until they get unpacked and set up. After the field gets torn down, the PODS get loaded, and the company takes them to the next venue.

That certainly is a unique way to do it that I hadn't thought of! I plan on doing a little research to see how much that costs, however do you know how much New England spends over an entire season on PODS?

[Mr V]

Could you share with us how you handle the movement of fields throughout the season? Do you rent a semi truck each week or do you have some means of transportation donated?

We use a 53' semi trailer. For our first two seasons the use of a shipping container and trailer was donated via a parent of a student participant who works for a shipping company that just so happens to do a lot of their business shipping to AK, that means that during the winter they have lots and lots of containers and trailers that are unused. They also arranged to connect us with owner/operators to two said trailers which the PNW district payed for.

For some reason this year he was not able to make that happen so we went for plan B. Plan B was to rent traditional 53' trailers we were able to get a good deal because of an Alumni who now owns a company that does stage lighting and AV production and has connections and accounts that allow him to get a good price. I'm not sure if he arranged the truck or not this season.

Note we seem to be unique in using this approach. One of the reasons that we do it this way is that we own all the production equipment, we don't rent things like pipe and drape or sanctions and we do all of our own AV. So we manage to fill that 53' trailer to within a couple of feet from the end, and that is with many cases double stacked. The trailers come back to our Fieldhouse between events where they are partially unloaded to restock the consumables and occasionally do some repairs.

I know that some other areas use PODS. The PODS are delivered to the warehouse that accepts the shipments from FIRST where they are packed for the current season's game, then the company picks them up and transports them to the venues. I don't know what they do about consumables, whether they pack it all from the begining like FIRST does with their trucks, whether they are transported by volunteers, or if the PODS are returned to a central location for restock. PODS then stores the fields during the off-season.

The trailers work for us because we have the Fieldhouse where everything is stored in the off season and much of that equipment like floor coverings, pipe and drape, power cord protectors and AV is used for FLL and FTC events. The Fields are also used for off season events, they have been used for both the OR and WA Girl's Generation events, Comicon in Salt Lake, the AZ state CMP and Chezy Champs. So it is nice to have it all at our facility for the common carrier of the user's choice to pickup at our loading dock.

[plnyyanks]

That certainly is a unique way to do it that I hadn't thought of! I plan on doing a little research to see how much that costs, however do you know how much New England spends over an entire season on PODS?

I do not know what NE spends on PODS costs, unfortunately.

I would guess that using PODS is one of the more common shipping methods used by districts. I know MAR also stores their fields in PODS during the season (I don't know any more about their arrangements, though) and that the Chesapeake events probably use them as well (I've seen PODS in the parking lot which I assume is for the field, but I haven't set up one of their fields yet, so I can't say for sure).

It's a big advantage that loading/unloading PODS does not require a loading dock (something most high schools don't have) - you can just roll cases directly out of the POD and in the door to the school. For the PNW people in this thread - how are you dealing with not having loading docks at all your venues (or do you)?

Plus, the PODS moving trucks are super cool (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX-KY1bRvzE).

[iVanDuzer]

Maybe we should bring that topic to the front. It seems to me that the angry response of a group of people is based on that perception of aggressiveness. I admit to being completely unfamiliar with that group's context, so I have no way to understand their reaction beyond reading the words presented here. With only those words, I can see this situation as kind of a litmus test -- if you believe Minnesota is trying to push you away from volunteering based on what you read into them, your mindset might make you a poor choice for a Key Volunteer position. If I knew more about the reality of the situation (beyond a laundry list of second-hand comments from an anonymous poster), I might have a different impression of what's going on.


Marshall McLuhan famously said that "The medium is the message. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_medium_is_the_message)" Not that "the medium influences the message." He says that the way we present things changes what the message actually is, and by-and-large, he's right. As media creators, we ask ourselves all the time "what form should this take?" In some cases we're talking format (TV vs Billboard vs Newspaper vs Virus-laden Popup), but we're also talking tone, word choice, format, aesthetics.

FIRST is an organization that is chock-full of engineers. Engineers are often very, very good at talking to other engineers. That's the major strength of technical writing: hard to misunderstand clearly-written instructions with no extra fluff. However, they are also pretty good at putting feet in mouths (this is basically half of the drama I ever see on CD). Case study: Al's posts in this thread. We all know Al. We know he's the LRI. We know he's on a Hall of Fame team. We know he knows incredible, mature, inspiring students. But he was torn apart for a bit there because his post conveyed a message that he didn't want to convey (and he had to clarify his point in later posts).

The Minnesota doc just reeks of Engineer-speak to me. You can look at it, and say "it concisely conveys the information we want it to." And that's it. It really makes no attempt to draw the reader in, to provide information in a conversational way. You might think "well, that's not necessary," except half of the posts in this thread have shown that, yes, it is necessary. Because while it's all well and good to have a manual written in technical talk, volunteers are not robots. Volunteers are built around passion and relationships. You know what technical writing is rubbish at conveying? Passion.

A volunteer that wants to donate huge chunks of their time doesn't want to be treated like a cog in the machine. That's not how healthy FRC teams treat their students or mentors, and that shouldn't be the way RPCs (Minnesota, or any other) treat their volunteers. People like to be individually recognized. Look at the GuamFIRST copy: they have a joke about Lunacy! That's awesome! I actually chuckled to myself when I read that! That joke makes me feel connected to the author, and as a result, that makes me more interested in volunteering. I know from the get-go that this organization puts in an effort to include me, and that inclusion translates into feeling like those major volunteer roles with the prestige are actually within grasp. I feel like the organization is going to build me up.

The Minnesota copy sounds like a job ad. The GuamFIRST copy sounds like a non-profit organization looking for passionate people to help out. Which does its job more effectively? (heck, what is the job??? he effectiveness answer hinges on the job the document is trying to do.) Again, same information, slightly different approaches (so slightly that there's trouble in this very thread identifying them). Different meaning.

The Medium is the Message. We all know to be careful about what we write, but being wary of how we write something is often forgotten.

I know I'm sounding a little condescending here. However, this goes both ways. I like to think that I'm decent at inter-personal communications. But ask me to write a lab report, and I cannot do it. I haven't learned how to. That's why figures like Karthik are so cool - they are ideal communicators, able to effectively get their points across to anyone, regardless of their background.

[dag0620]

I know that some other areas use PODS. The PODS are delivered to the warehouse that accepts the shipments from FIRST where they are packed for the current season's game, then the company picks them up and transports them to the venues. I don't know what they do about consumables, whether they pack it all from the begining like FIRST does with their trucks, whether they are transported by volunteers, or if the PODS are returned to a central location for restock. PODS then stores the fields during the off-season.


In NE at least, we stock all consumables at the beginning of the season, labeled and allocated out to events, just as FIRST does on regional fields. (We also ship all carpets, something FIRST does not do). Since we have pretty much the full set of cases regional trucks have, (with a few cases being combined), we can do this. Once the PODS and fields leave the NE FIRST warehouse, they won't roll back through until after DCMP week 7.

While we try to not do consumable restocking, obviously things happen. In that case, we'll overnight extra materials, or have a volunteer/staff member bring them, depending on the situation.

We actually no longer use PODS for off-season storage. The fields stay in our warehouse, and off-seasons are responsible for arranging their own logistics to borrow fields.

[dag0620]

I do not know what NE spends on PODS costs, unfortunately.
l[/URL].

It costs more than trucking, I can say that. It's certainly not a cheaper alternative to trucks, and we're always evaluating whether the extra expense is worth it or not. As Phil mentioned, we mainly stick with PODS because it allows us to easily unload equipment at venues that don't have loading docks. Currently the majority of our venues fall into this situation.

If most of your venues have loading docks, then unless you can't find warehouse space, there is no reason to not use a truck. It's cheaper, and easier. Once you start dealing with lift gates and fork lifts, it's a different story.

[Deetman]

As previously mentioned, FIRST Mid-Atlantic (MAR) also uses PODS to transport and store our fields. In total, we have 8 PODS, 4 for each field. This number grows and shrinks each year depending on the game. Much like PNW, MAR owns quite a bit of our own equipment including pipe and drape, A/V, computer systems, electrical wiring for pits, etc. which is all shipped from official event to event without ever returning to a MAR facility. Offseason events get a subset of the equipment that essentially is just the field and that year's game specific elements. For carpet, we elect to have a new set of field carpet for each event and ship the practice field carpet from event to event. While this is an additional cost, it saves room in the PODS, eliminates the headache of precisely rolling the carpet at the end of the event, and saves time on event setup due to the carpet being brand new. Unfortunately MAR does not have a warehouse or similar facility to use as a central location, but we have been able to use a local school for deliveries of the year's game specific components (usually about a semi-truck full for two fields), organizing and packing, and limited storage. The cost of the PODS is not insignificant, but it is not unreasonable either. I believe you could estimate the cost in tens of thousands for an entire year, including shipments to offseason events and storage.

For field consumables, we have red totes that are larger than the recycle rush totes filled with tape, zip ties, etc. for each event. Last year these were shipped in the PODS but this year we had them ready to go early enough that all the venues had their consumable totes before the end of build season. We also have a spare tote and left overs from previous events that get shipped ahead.

Edit: Also, we do not stack any road cases for safety reasons. We used to but we thankfully stopped the practice before we had any incidents.

http://i.imgur.com/b3bWqTv.jpg

[Mr V]

I do not know what NE spends on PODS costs, unfortunately.

I would guess that using PODS is one of the more common shipping methods used by districts. I know MAR also stores their fields in PODS during the season (I don't know any more about their arrangements, though) and that the Chesapeake events probably use them as well (I've seen PODS in the parking lot which I assume is for the field, but I haven't set up one of their fields yet, so I can't say for sure).

It's a big advantage that loading/unloading PODS does not require a loading dock (something most high schools don't have) - you can just roll cases directly out of the POD and in the door to the school. For the PNW people in this thread - how are you dealing with not having loading docks at all your venues (or do you)?

Plus, the PODS moving trucks are super cool (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX-KY1bRvzE).

None of the events that I have worked have a loading dock. We use a fork lift that is sometimes rented and sometimes provided by the venue. This year the trailers do have lift gates which does make it easier to deal with that huge cart that FIRST created to carry most of the defenses. However other than that we still use a forklift for unloading. I consider this a neccesity because to get everything in a 53' trailer a lot of cases are double stacked and using a forklift to do that is infinitely safer than having 6 or 7 people lift up a case while someone else rolls the bottom one in or out. Having a forklift also makes dealing with the carpet a much safer proposition because we own 2 carpet poles that travel on the truck. Stick the pole in the roll lift it off easily and place it on top of one of the 8' long road cases. It can then be rolled to exactly where it is needed. No need to have a bunch of people trying to deal with such a heavy and awkward item.

Yes renting forklifts cost money. For the first two seasons we payed standard retail prices from a couple of companies depending on the location. We now have a rental company that covers the entire area and gives us special pricing on the forklifts and generators that are needed at certain events. The drop them off Day 0 and then pick them back up the following Monday. The first two seasons the schedules were such that we only needed a generator at one event each week and we rented it for the entire 6 weeks and one of the volunteers towed it to the events and back to the Fieldhouse for storage during the week.

All of this points out just like there isn't only 1 right way to build a competitive robot there is no 1 right way to handle the transportation and production of the events. There are now several different methods used by the various existing districts that you can look to for guidance and of course you can pick and chose the different elements that work best for your area.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

The Minnesota copy sounds like a job ad. The GuamFIRST copy sounds like a non-profit organization looking for passionate people to help out.

OK,
I have done some research.
Partly because I want this to die and partly because it is Easter and we should think about more important things...
The MN doc was a draft of an idea shown to the leadership of one team and a small group of U of MN Minneapolis students who were asked for input more than a year ago. As others have stated but no one has really picked up on, it was not made public, it was not widely distributed and it was never published until now. It was never edited, and never morphed into another document. For all intents and purposes it never saw the light of day for FIRST in Minnesota.
Now that that is out of the way, please consider the title of the thread in your future responses.

[Mr V]

As previously mentioned, FIRST Mid-Atlantic (MAR) also uses PODS to transport and store our fields. In total, we have 8 PODS, 4 for each field. This number grows and shrinks each year depending on the game. Much like PNW, MAR owns quite a bit of our own equipment including pipe and drape, A/V, computer systems, electrical wiring for pits, etc. which is all shipped from official event to event without ever returning to a MAR facility. Offseason events get a subset of the equipment that essentially is just the field and that year's game specific elements. For carpet, we elect to have a new set of field carpet for each event and ship the practice field carpet from event to event. While this is an additional cost, it saves room in the PODS, eliminates the headache of precisely rolling the carpet at the end of the event, and saves time on event setup due to the carpet being brand new. Unfortunately MAR does not have a warehouse or similar facility to use as a central location, but we have been able to use a local school for deliveries of the year's game specific components (usually about a semi-truck full for two fields), organizing and packing, and limited storage. The cost of the PODS is not insignificant, but it is not unreasonable either. I believe you could estimate the cost in tens of thousands for an entire year, including shipments to offseason events and storage.

For field consumables, we have red totes that are larger than the recycle rush totes filled with tape, zip ties, etc. for each event. Last year these were shipped in the PODS but this year we had them ready to go early enough that all the venues had their consumable totes before the end of build season. We also have a spare tote and left overs from previous events that get shipped ahead.

Edit: Also, we do not stack any road cases for safety reasons. We used to but we thankfully stopped the practice before we had any incidents.

http://i.imgur.com/b3bWqTv.jpg

That is interesting that you do fresh carpet for every event instead of using it for two as we do in the PNW. Personally I'd rather start with a used set of carpet as I find it saves at least a 1/2hr since you don't have to cut off the selvedge and if you line it up right you have the basic chalk marks and tape ghosts to go by. That is not to say that everything isn't verified but it is easier and quicker in my opinion.

I wouldn't say that you have to roll the carpet precisely, I know it doesn't happen at most of our events and have not had a problem using the carpet pole to move them around. The only time there is a problem is when someone rolls it up w/o the cardboard core, or if they damaged the cardboard core. I've had a couple of nightmares dealing with how to move a roll of carpet with no core and rolled with no room in the middle for the core, or a broken core.

For us the trailers have tracks for load bars so we place a number of them at the top for the carpet to sit on. With a forklift and carpet pole this works nicely.

Yes we have a forklift at the Fieldhouse, a newer one was donated this year to replace the ancient one that was originally purchased.

How big is each POD, I'm having a hard time imagining just how many sq ft of floor space would be needed if cases weren't stacked. I certainly understand not stacking them if you don't have a forklift to stack/unstack. I was always scared that someone could be seriously injured doing it that way.

[Deetman]

That is interesting that you do fresh carpet for every event instead of using it for two as we do in the PNW. Personally I'd rather start with a used set of carpet as I find it saves at least a 1/2hr since you don't have to cut off the selvedge and if you line it up right you have the basic chalk marks and tape ghosts to go by. That is not to say that everything isn't verified but it is easier and quicker in my opinion.

I'd guess that you have better results than we did with used carpet. It seemed that used carpet would require much more kicking out/work to get it flat due to kinks, etc. from the way it sits when shipped when compared to a new carpet. We keep the offseason carpets from event to event and not once have I tried or been able to use the same chalk lines.

I wouldn't say that you have to roll the carpet precisely, I know it doesn't happen at most of our events and have not had a problem using the carpet pole to move them around. The only time there is a problem is when someone rolls it up w/o the cardboard core, or if they damaged the cardboard core. I've had a couple of nightmares dealing with how to move a roll of carpet with no core and rolled with no room in the middle for the core, or a broken core.

Rolling the carpets precisely is a requirement of the PODS. The PODS we use are 16ft long and when rolling a 15ft wide carpet, you only have 1ft to play with for the carpet to "pencil" out before it wont fit anymore. Not an impossible task, but it can be frustrating at times, especially at the end of the event when all you want to do is go home and sleep.

How big is each POD, I'm having a hard time imagining just how many sq ft of floor space would be needed if cases weren't stacked. I certainly understand not stacking them if you don't have a forklift to stack/unstack. I was always scared that someone could be seriously injured doing it that way.

The 16ft PODS are roughly 8ft wide by 16ft deep and 8ft tall (interior dimensions are a bit smaller). With 4 PODS, this is about 512 square feet per field. This year we need almost every last inch of space in the PODS.

[Mr V]

I'd guess that you have better results than we did with used carpet. It seemed that used carpet would require much more kicking out/work to get it flat due to kinks, etc. from the way it sits when shipped when compared to a new carpet. We keep the offseason carpets from event to event and not once have I tried or been able to use the same chalk lines.



Rolling the carpets precisely is a requirement of the PODS. The PODS we use are 16ft long and when rolling a 15ft wide carpet, you only have 1ft to play with for the carpet to "pencil" out before it wont fit anymore. Not an impossible task, but it can be frustrating at times, especially at the end of the event when all you want to do is go home and sleep.



The 16ft PODS are roughly 8ft wide by 16ft deep and 8ft tall (interior dimensions are a bit smaller). With 4 PODS, this is about 512 square feet per field. This year we need almost every last inch of space in the PODS.

Yeah if you have to stick it in a 16' space that extra 1.5' from a quick rolling could be a real nightmare.

Another benefit from the shipping containers is that the ones we used had a 102" inside width. The trailers are slightly narrower but still wide enough to slip a 20 or 21 in a row with 3 "standard" cases. You can also spin a standard ~8' cases to load them width wise if that works better.

[Brian Sherman]

Kevin covered how MAR logistics work, but I figured I can add info about costs to those who are interested.

A PODS container rental is roughly $230/mo. We have negotiated it down to $150/mo. This is a flat rate regardless if the container is stored in their "conditioned" warehouse of left in a school parking lot all summer (yes we do that sometimes).

Delivery of the containers is based on mileage and distance from the PODS depots. In the MAR region, there are 2 major hubs: one outside Philadelphia, PA and one outside of New Brunswick, NJ. We stage each of our fields in these two locations so the mileage is reduced. A container delivery can be anywhere from $80 to $250 and pick up is free. A trip between depots is around $300-500. For these reasons, we try to limit moving our containers across the river. Another example: to ship a container from the MAR region to FIRST HQ (which we do to return the FMS and game specifics each year) costs $1000.

[EricH]

I am making a stand alone post here because I do want to emphasize this statement.

Maturity does not go hand in hand with age. I have had many FIRST Alumni working as Inspectors. I depend on those people to help fill needs at all events including the Championship. I hope that those who have worked with me know how I cherish their involvement. However, inspections are a very difficult volunteer position, as is reffing and judging. (I think tech judging for FLL is harder than FRC inspections) They are hard because of the skills needed and the unique ability to work with students and mentors. These positions are the front line of FIRST events. You want the best possible candidates for these positions because your whole season is on the line.

That underlined line needs to be bolded, italicized, and underlined in bigger font. If you have the maturity for a given position that you would like to be in, but aren't in the position you want, talk to someone who is there to shadow them when you can, while still attending to your actual position. Trust me. I've been there. I know someone else who is there currently. (As I was reading this thread, I had the exact same thought. Age != Maturity. No matter what the creators of the '07 Algorithm of Doom might think...)

By the way, more on the original topic... One reason I started expanding my volunteering was because I recognized that to go to districts (or simply more events, period--either one badly needed around here), volunteers and key volunteers would be needed, the more experienced the better. I simply volunteered (though doing inspection and reffing in the same event can be pretty rough, as I found out the hard way--was better-ish this year though). Want to help your area move? Start making moves that can help. I've done field reset. I've done field setup AND field teardown. I've done Spare Parts. And I've done reffing and inspecting (and, for that matter, I plan to keep doing those for quite a while). Start somewhere, and once you find your niche, work your way up. Had a good laugh when I couldn't log in to the inspection tablets because I was listed as an LRI--I'm not, but couldn't resist telling the LRI that someone thought I was after his job--as a joke, of course, after that got straightened out!