View Full Version : Message to mentor_4281
I'm truly sorry that your very reasonable reach out to the CD community was incorrectly interpreted as "making fun". The tone of your OP was clearly "I have a problem; does anyone have any suggestions that allow me to continue to inspire my team member?"
I have been a federal employee for over 25 years, and for most of those, an "occasional" supervisor of other employees, including all of 2014 and 2015. The underlying concept of this matter for government service is the idea of "reasonable accommodation". That is, you find a way to make things work. It may not be the accommodation that the employee (team member) asked for, but "something that works".
Unless your team member is uncommonly gifted, blindness will exclude membership on the drive team, and operating most shop machinery. The bottom line is that team members (both students and mentors) should be checked out on the equipment they operate. If your blind team member cannot safely operate a band saw, don't let him/her use it. On the other hand, if he/she can, but perhaps needs a "spotter" to notice unusual situations, make that happen.
I have worked over the years with a couple of blind coders, and even a blind acoustic modeler (which is normally dependent on visualizations). Sometimes people can accomplish amazing things despite handicaps, sometimes not. I encourage you to find a way to make your blind member a productive poof, because that will probably be the key to him/her becoming a productive innovator of the coming generation -- and that's what FIRST is for.
This guy was clearly a troll. He is not a 254 member.
lol
guys should we tell him
IronicDeadBird
08-04-2016, 21:24
The message still stands even if it was a troll. I'd expect any group of people that can build robots to compete in 6 weeks can take time to figure out how to overcome adversity and issues in order to make sure everyone is welcome.
Edit: And safe, welcome and safe
BBray_T1296
08-04-2016, 21:56
This guy was clearly a troll. He is not a 254 member.
It was also a first post, from a likely anonymous account. Why they chose 254 we don't know, but it doesn't illegitimize their concern.
I do not understand how anyone could see that post as 'trolling', maybe I am just giving the benefit of the doubt, but I fail to see how it could be taken as dishonest.
It does bring up an interesting and rarely if ever discussed topic of how to incorporate those with disabilities into the FRC community. Yes they have ramps so wheelchair-bound individuals can be drivers, but that is just a small sub-set of the disabilities out there. I believe those shutting down such discussions are the real problem.
The other Gabe
08-04-2016, 21:58
ok, so even if this guy was a troll, the majority of us had no way of knowing this, so the rather hostile responses both in that thread and this one are both rude and unnecessary. Not only could it have been explained in a more gracious and professional manner on the thread itself, but you certainly could have been less rude to GeeTwo, who is simply trying to be a polite and welcoming member of the community.
Think about your actions and words. They reflect upon you, your team, and the entire community.
thatprogrammer
08-04-2016, 22:32
ok, so even if this guy was a troll, the majority of us had no way of knowing this, so the rather hostile responses both in that thread and this one are both rude and unnecessary. Not only could it have been explained in a more gracious and professional manner on the thread itself, but you certainly could have been less rude to GeeTwo, who is simply trying to be a polite and welcoming member of the community.
Think about your actions and words. They reflect upon you, your team, and the entire community.
To be fair, Cory might have been upset because his team number was used by the anonymous account. An observer who didn't know mentor_4281 wasn't actually from 254 might have thought that 254 was the team struggling with the challenge of having a challenged student on their team. That's not to say that having a blind student is a problem, but that people thinking your team has such a student when you do not is. It's simply not comforting to know that people are willing to use your team as a "throwaway" in order to keep themselves anonymous. That said, I do think we should try and help mentor_4281 and suggest good ways to assist with visually challenged students!
mman1506
08-04-2016, 22:33
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ4H9XODC_M
In a situation like this I think it is important to be realistic, you need to have a discussion, with the student, the other mentors and the student’s parents. There are lots of things that could be potentially hazardous for a blind person to be involved in, but there are also things that they can be involved in. You need to consider the things the student can do rather than those they can’t.
Not allowing the student to participate on your team is not the way to solve this situation.
You are making a big impact on this person’s life through your mentorship and being supportive of his passion for STEM and I really commend you on that.
It’s nearly the end of the season, it’ll be the off-season next month. The off-season is the perfect time to help a student like this, rather than be restricted by the build season timeframe, you can spend the time to really help this student. With one to one guidance, with someone by their side you limit the capacity for this person to hurt themselves and others, while still enabling them to do similar things that other students do( within reason).
If you are interested in learning about the latest in assisting technology, check out the Trace Center in Wisconsin.
http://trace.wisc.edu/projects/
Dave
To be fair, Cory might have been upset because his team number was used by the anonymous account. An observer who didn't know mentor_4281 wasn't actually from 254 might have thought that 254 was the team struggling with the challenge of having a challenged student on their team. That's not to say that having a blind student is a problem, but that people thinking your team has such a student when you do not is. It's simply not comforting to know that people are willing to use your team as a "throwaway" in order to keep themselves anonymous. That said, I do think we should try and help mentor_4281 and suggest good ways to assist with visually challenged students!
It was clearly a troll because he ended the message by saying "I'm trying to build the robot for these students, but they just need to stay away from the tools", clearly a "mentor built robot dig" when combined with the 254 team number.
I'm certainly sensitive to the challenges of having a blind student, it just seemed like that post was about taking shots at us, not about a blind student.
Jon Stratis
08-04-2016, 23:31
It was clearly a troll because he ended the message by saying "I'm trying to build the robot for these students, but they just need to stay away from the tools", clearly a "mentor built robot dig" when combined with the 254 team number.
I'm certainly sensitive to the challenges of having a blind student, it just seemed like that post was about taking shots at us, not about a blind student.
I can see how you could read it that way, personally I read it a little differently. First, I didn't actually see what team number was indicated on the account - I thought the intent with a name like "mentor_4281" was that he/she was a mentor for team 4281 (whom I don't know and pass no judgement on whatsoever). Second, when I read that I read it from the perspective of a struggling mentor trying to do their best for the team. Not necessarily saying they literally build the robot for the team, but that they feel the obligation to ensure the team presents a functional robot at the end of the build season and they're having trouble doing that with a student that poses a danger to himself and others in their shop.
As a more general comment to all of CD, every team, at one point or another, is going to encounter a problem student. They may have a disability of one sort or another that imposes limits they're attempting to overcome. They may be blind or deaf, or bound to a wheel chair. They may have a learning impediment, or have difficulty with social situations. When someone comes on here seeking advice, they may not feel comfortable posting under their own name/team - for one, they may not want to be caught publicly "complaining" about one of their students, and may be afraid of the blow-back that may happen if a public discussion like that was attributed to their team (parents get upset, school may think it sends the wrong image, etc). In that case, leaving the team number blank is better than picking a high-profile number you happen to remember (and hey, if you see someone impersonating your team, better to handle it with a friendly PM than getting all upset). We should try to be more accepting, offer up useful advice and suggestions. I strongly believe that anyone, regardless of handicap, can be a productive and happy member of a team if you can find the right niche for them to fill. Sometimes, though, it takes the advice of others to help you find that niche, and that is a purpose that CD should help fill!
Kyler Hagler
09-04-2016, 00:09
It clearly was a dig at 254. The thing is, it was worded poorly and the grammar was atrocious. I read it and the first thing that went through my mind was "what a troll". I am sensitive to the issues at hand but I can't take the post seriously especially when they throw the mentor built thing at the end of the post. Maybe we can have a member from team 4281 clarify if this is a real situation?
IronicDeadBird
09-04-2016, 00:56
It clearly was a dig at 254. The thing is, it was worded poorly and the grammar was atrocious. I read it and the first thing that went through my mind was "what a troll". I am sensitive to the issues at hand but I can't take the post seriously especially when they throw the mentor built thing at the end of the post. Maybe we can have a member from team 4281 clarify if this is a real situation?
Lets not start a witch hunt, as low of a blow as it is...
1. Trolls only win when you feed them
2. This actually is a serious topic
What do you do with students with disabilities? What issues have you run into with including them and how did you over come them? For those who do how do you increase your team/club/cults (whichever category you choose to fall in) accessibility?
I know off the top of my head one that I have dealt with several times has to do with providing snacks. Those with dietary restrictions often get different snacks but I'd be interested to see if anyone else has stories or tips about the entire situation.
Mike Marandola
09-04-2016, 01:36
If it's even worth it, could someone describe what the post was about for those who didn't see it?
If it's even worth it, could someone describe what the post was about for those who didn't see it?
Hello,
I have been mentoring a first team and have some problems with a team member who is blind. He has already had three incidents in which his sight problem has harmed other team members (and one time himself). I have been trying to be supportive of his passion for STEM, but I can no longer allow such a dangerous team member to participate on our team. I'm trying to build the robot for these students, but they just need to stay away from the tools sometimes :). I would love any and all advice.
I had it saved, because I generally try and type up my long posts in Microsoft Word
engunneer
09-04-2016, 10:18
I can confirm that was the text of the original post, except they used :o instead of :) (in at least one of the two identical posts)
I remember seeing the OP but didn't catch the team number(s) at the time. I checked on TBA. 4281 is associated with a special needs school so it's possible that this is a genuine appeal. Not sure where or how the association to 254 was implied or inferred (user profile?) It's possble it was accidental.
Not that it should matter. As pointed out, accommodating students with disabilities is a serious topic. Requests for help should be treated in good faith. I don't see how giving useful advice to a legitimate challenge feeds trolls.
I remember seeing the OP but didn't catch the team number(s) at the time. I checked on TBA. 4281 is associated with a special needs school so it's possible that this is a genuine appeal. Not sure where or how the association to 254 was implied or inferred (user profile?) It's possble it was accidental.
Not that it should matter. As pointed out, accommodating students with disabilities is a serious topic. Requests for help should be treated in good faith. I don't see how giving useful advice to a legitimate challenge feeds trolls.
The username was mentor_4281, but the associated FRC team on the profile was #0254.
logank013
09-04-2016, 11:14
This sounds to me that this is talking about another thread. Can someone direct me to that said post or thread? I'm just curious about what this situation is about. Thanks.
This sounds to me that this is talking about another thread. Can someone direct me to that said post or thread? I'm just curious about what this situation is about. Thanks.
Previous thread was removed. See pilleya's post above for the original post in question.
IronicDeadBird
09-04-2016, 14:51
I don't see how giving useful advice to a legitimate challenge feeds trolls.
Yeah I agree I was trying to say that this is a good conversation but pursuing the details on mentor_4281 isn't worth talking about.
This guy was clearly a troll. He is not a 254 member.
The possibility occurred to me. I confess to missing the "I'm trying to build the robot for the students", reading "with" instead of "for", so I did not recognize this as Poof-robots-are-mentor-built bashing. I did recognize that the account was new and that a mentor might be assuming another team number in pursuit of anonymity. I did believe that it was as likely than not a genuine plea for help (and still do believe it's a good possibility), and I was frankly dismayed by the flame delivered in response.
I did believe that it was as likely than not a genuine plea for help (and still do believe it's a good possibility), and I was frankly dismayed by the flame delivered in response.
Same here. If you have to use words that the forum automatically filters, folks, you need to rethink how you're saying what you're saying.
I do think that the discussion on how to best help students with special needs is important, and possibly the discussion on how much mentor involvement is necessary is due to crop up again (I haven't seen it this year, don't tell me if I missed it). But not together, and certainly not when the thread seems to be on another topic entirely.
I did recognize that the account was new and that a mentor might be assuming another team number in pursuit of anonymity.
I cannot recall one time in CD history this has happened. Not once.
Yeah I agree I was trying to say that this is a good conversation but pursuing the details on mentor_4281 isn't worth talking about.
I think it goes to heart of what happened. I see the purpose of this thread as about CD community conduct. In this case, we have a new account asking for help with a situation while claiming affiliation with a well-known, highly succssful team. There was wording that touched a nerve: inappropriate mentor build involvement. There was an assumption made that this new user was a troll but showing a little curiousity shows it's plausible that they might not have been.
If you come across a post that rubs you the wrong way that doesn't contain open aggression/libel, can we please give people the benefit of the doubt? Contact the person and ask if they are old alum of 254. Ask what they mean by "trying to get this robot built." It's easy to jump to conclusions, especially when you're online. We all do it. Encourage you inner devil's advocate and be curious.
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