INsight: Indiana State Championships

[INsight]

Overall data:

Tippecanoe - 76% breach / 18% capture
Walker Warren - 88% breach / 30% capture
Perry Meridian - 88% breach / 46% capture
Indiana Total - 84% breach / 31% capture
World-Wide Total - 68% breach / 10% capture

INsight Prediction for State - 91% breach / 54% capture

Numbers don’t lie; Indiana has proven itself as the dominant region for FIRST Stronghold. The Indiana State Championship event may very well be the most-watched competition since Palmetto in Week 0.5. Eyes around the world will be trained on the Kokomo Memorial Gym to find out exactly what makes Indiana teams so rock solid.

Some folks may be disappointed to find that there just aren’t absolutely dominating teams found around the state. Indiana is just a collection of teams that do what they do, and do it very well. 868 taking gold at Queen City is a sterling example of this. Although a casual observer may view Indiana as a four horse race, the alliance partners really make or break the match. As the many Purdue alumni will attest, this state is full of Makers.

While high goal shooters are the crown jewels of the event, eliciting the oohs and aahs from the audience and providing the consistently high scores we’ve seen from Indiana, the low goal scorers and breachers are the true workhorses. The top 5 high goal scorers averaged 84% breaches and 41% captures. For comparison, a low goal team averaged 98% breaches and 50% captures. If one or two corn-fed duty-bots can maintain a 3.5+ ranking average and seed well (as 71 did at Perry Meridian), they could wreak havoc on the alliance selection process.

Indiana teams were also very quick to pick up on the nuances and beneficial strategies of the game. While some naysayers claim that Indiana numbers are inflated due to lack of defensive play, these folks might find that their notion of defense as robot-on-robot combat is becoming obsolete. Defense means keeping the other alliance from scoring; savvy spectators shall certainly see spectacular strategies that may feel counter-intuitive at first, but will produce results. The techniques employed by 71-1501-6012 at the Perry Meridian finals matches may very well be the first iterations of some very innovative game plans.

Perhaps the most thrilling competition of all will be the hotly contested race to the Chairman’s and Engineering Inspiration Awards. With only nine guaranteed slots to St. Louis, some very competitive and deserving teams will be spending late April at home.

Now, history lesson time: 3 robot alliances began in 2005 with Triple Play. Since then, 810 competitions have passed to date. While plenty of duos have teamed up time and again (example: 1114 and 2056, 17 times), only twice* has an alliance of three robots repeated and won multiple events. 1024, 1747, and 45 are the only 3 robot alliance to win multiple events in the same year.

*For those curious minds: 359, 368, and 3880 have teamed up to win the Hawaii regional twice, 2011 and 2015.
Some may point out the alliances of 67, 340, and 1126 & 254, 971, and 852. While H.O.T., G.R.R., and Sparx won the Great Lakes Regional and the Newton division in 2004, that was before three robot alliances. The Cheesy Poofs, Spartan Robotics, and Athenian Robotics Collective have twice combined their powers to win the Silicon Valley Regional; in 2004 (again before three robot alliances) and again in 2009.


Without further ado:


Top Contenders:
868
Quarterfinalists and Chairman’s Award at Tippecanoe
Champions and Quality Award at Walker Warren
Champions and Innovation in Control Award at Queen City Regional
OPR Rank 108 @ 41.1
90% breach, 48% capture rates

The Techhounds took their talents down to Cincinnati and were able to earn their ticket to the World Championships with a win. Can the kids from Carmel make it three event wins in a row with a State Championship banner?

1024
Champions and Quality Award at Tippecanoe
Champions and Industrial Design at Walker Warren
Champions at Perry Meridian
OPR Rank 34 @ 48.1
93% breach, 49% capture rates

Indiana’s first “Triple-Crown” Winner, the Kil-A-Bytes will be going for the 4-Banner Sweep at State. Will they have any improvements to stay ahead of the competition or will their experience and deep tournament runs continue to guide them?

1501
Finalists and Quality Award at North Carolina - Guilford
Quarterfinalists and Innovation in Control Award at Tippecanoe
Finalists and Excellence in Engineering Award at Perry Meridian
OPR Rank 79 @ 43.5
81% breach, 26% capture rates

After tasting silver twice, THRUST will be gunning hard to get the win at State. Their deadlock aiming and newly added climber will make them a force to be reckoned with.

1747
Champions and Entrepreneurship Award at Tippecanoe
Semifinalists and Chairman’s Award at Walker Warren
Champions and Innovation in Control Award at Perry Meridian
OPR Rank 67 @ 44.7
89% breach, 54% capture rates

The Pandas from Harrison were able to return to being a high-performing, high-goal shooting cycler. They were able to overcome their performance issues from Warren to return to the winner’s circle at Perry.



Corn-Fed Contenders (Dependable and valuable alliance members):
461
Quarterfinalists at Tippecanoe
Finalists and Engineering Inspiration at Walker Warren
OPR Rank 417 @ 32.5

The finalists finish at Walker Warren marked the 6th time in their team’s history that the Westside Boiler Invasion has fallen short of winning an official FIRST event. Can they find the alliance needed in order to finally successfully invade the opponent’s castle and hoist a Event Winner blue banner?

1529
Quarterfinalists at Walker Warren
Semifinalists and Imagery Award at Perry Meridian
OPR Rank 334 @ 34

The CyberCards have continued to fly higher as competitions have gone on. They started Walker Warren as a low-goal dedicated late pick and ended Perry Meridian as an alliance captain and scoring machine capable of matching most alliances point for point.

1720
Champions and Judges Award at Walker Warren
Quarterfinalists and Judges Award at Perry Meridian
OPR Rank 442 @ 32.1

The PhyXT Gears took a small step back from their strong showing at Walker Warren, having several code gremlins and streaks of bad luck affect their performance at Perry Meridian.

3940
Finalists at Tippecanoe
Quarterfinalists, Safety Award, and Imagery Award at Walker Warren
OPR Rank 406 @ 32.7

After reaching Finals, CyberTooth spent Walker Warren attempting to join others by scoring in the high goal. Will they be able to get the kinks worked out and join the ranks of Indiana’s high goal robots or will they return to low goal specializing? Either way, they still are the most entertaining Outer Works crosser in the state.



Hiding-in-the-Corn (Sleepers/Darkhorse picks):
71
Quarterfinalists at Walker Warren
Finalists and Gracious Professionalism Award at Perry Meridian
OPR Rank 65 @ 44.7

The BEAST roared back to life at Perry and they’ve scared away their code bugs to be the best low-goal dedicated robot in the state. As they get deeper into State, they will continue to feed on the rest of the competition and use their climber to compete for the win on Saturday.

135
Quarterfinalists and Judges Award at Tippecanoe
Semifinalists and Engineering Inspiration at Perry Meridian
OPR Rank 136 @ 39.6

The Black Knights have made steady improvement and continue to contend for the win. Their scaling ability has been consistently good and compliments their boulder scoring ability nicely.

4103
Quarterfinalists and Engineering Excellence Award at Tippecanoe
Semifinalists and Creativity Award at Walker Warren
OPR Rank 141 @ 39.5

The Roborioles used their scissor-lifted winch to fly high through their two competitions and claim the title of best climber in the state. Can they continue to soar and compete for the win or will they fall from their perch?

4982
Semifinalists and Industrial Design Award at Tippecanoe
Finalists at Walker Warren
OPR Rank 123 @ 40.2

An under-the-radar team that has performed very well this season, Olympus Robotics has impressed with their quick intake and quick-thinking drive-team. They quickly adapt to the performance of their robot and have the ability to score low and high.



Honorable Mentions:
1741
Semifinalists and Gracious Professionalism Award at Tippecanoe
Quarterfinalists and Entrepreneurship Award at Walker Warren
Semifinalists and Chairman’s Award at Perry Meridian
OPR Rank 354 @ 33.5

3176
Quarterfinalists and Spirit Award at Tippecanoe
Quarterfinalists at Walker Warren
OPR Rank 450 @ 31.9

3559
Quarterfinalists at Tippecanoe
Semifinalists and Quality Award at Perry Meridian
OPR Rank 320 @ 34.3

5403
Quarterfinalists at Tippecanoe
Semifinalists at Perry Meridian
OPR Rank 850 @ 27.2

[Theseusgoats]

Very interesting predictions. I agree that some pretty deserving or usually competitive teams are going to have to sit put on worlds this year.

[tindleroot]

135
OPR Rank 136 @ 39.6



SOO CLOSE (emphasis mine)

[Peyton Yeung]

Very interesting predictions. I agree that some pretty deserving or usually competitive teams are going to have to sit put on worlds this year.

Unfortunately that will likely be the case. 9 spots is pretty low for so many quality bots.

[carpedav000]

Not trying to sound like a whiny baby, but it seems like 1741 is one of the more underrated teams on this list, as we have shown the capability to put up 6 high goals in a couple matches and probably have one of the highest breach rates in the state right now :yikes:

[Akash Rastogi]

1024
Champions and Quality Award at Tippecanoe
Champions and Industrial Design at Walker Warren
Champions at Perry Meridian
OPR Rank 34 @ 48.1
93% breach, 49% capture rates

Indiana’s first “Triple-Crown” Winner, the Kil-A-Bytes will be going for the 4-Banner Sweep at State. Will they have any improvements to stay ahead of the competition or will their experience and deep tournament runs continue to guide them?

Fun fact: The last time 1024 had a triple banner season was 2008 and they were one of the most dominant robots that year, even making it to Einstein. They were also IRI finalists that year.

Here's hoping they can get back to that level this season! Good luck 1024!

[Peyton Yeung]

Not trying to sound like a whiny baby, but it seems like 1741 is one of the more underrated teams on this list, as we have shown the capability to put up 6 high goals in a couple matches and probably have one of the highest breach rates in the state right now :yikes:

I guess as the saying goes, "If you don't like the prediction, prove it wrong."

1741 drives their bot like they stole it. I've never seen them go over a defense slow. Very well done.

[Theseusgoats]

We have enough just high goal shooters to only have them make it to worlds, which probably won't happen. Also 71, 4103, 4982, and 1741 are very underated in this and 234 doesn't even appear somehow. Seems almost like the dark horse picks should be switched with the "valuable alliance selections" (IMO)


So don't really take these predictions to heart.

[logank013]

and 234 doesn't even appear somehow. Seems almost like the dark horse picks should be switched with the "valuable alliance selections" (IMO)


So don't really tke these predictions to heart.

I noticed this as well and wasn't offended. Can't wait to compete with all these great teams. I definitely see 1741 being a really high pic if their high shooter continues to be as good as it was in day 2 of Perry. Can't wait to see who all added climbers for DCMP (been waiting all season for 1024's. Hope they made one. I'm not sure at all). With DCMP essentially being 60% of points (as it's weighted 3x), playoff performance is a very big key this week. Good luck to teams using their bag time this week (hopefully everyone). Can't wait to see you all there.

P.S. Thank you INsight for all these posts. They've been great all year. I'm not sure if you planned to do this or not but when divisions for worlds is realeased in a couple of weeks, you should make and INsight post for worlds and see how you think IN teams will do in their division.

[BoilerMentor]

As always, thank you for your kind words INsight. I can only hope we perform up to your expectations this weekend.

I'm very much looking forward to this event. I think this event presents an opportunity to prove as a district, yet again, that there's more than corn in Indiana. I'm optimistic for everyone.

[BigBen]

My take on this is that all of the robots listed (especially those listed lower) and even a few not listed (234, 4103, among others), really most of the field going to this competition could be at the top of the field come the end of quals. This is a game that really shows the variety of strategy and design that is possible with a lot of different designs being very competitive.

The vast majority of the teams coming to the state championship have shown themselves to be capable of coordinating at a very high level to take the defenses down and capture the tower at a level not seen at very many competitions. The ability of teams to coordinate, strategize and then change plans on the fly, playing to the strengths of the design for each team will dictate who comes out on top.

Where the high shooters have the advantage is that they are also capable of defeating the defenses, but have the added scoring capability. They really shine when paired with a defense specialist low goal shooter that can provide boulders to keep their cycle time down. If you think about the high levels of breach and capture so far, what really set certain teams apart was the ability to score just a few more points or slow the other alliance down, even if it meant a decent high goal shooter playing defense to slow down a strong alliance that together could score more points.

What I think will be the most interesting thing about this competition is to see the modifications (mostly climbers I expect) or improvements (again expect it on a lot of climbers :rolleyes: ) since the previous competitions. Three weeks is a lot of time (two for 868 ;) ) to refine the systems teams were having any issues with.

I think defense will play a much bigger roll in quals and the tournament as well. That might be the only thing keeping some of the scoring down and maybe more of the towers going uncaptured.

In my opinion this is going to be competition at the highest level and a preview of what to expect from some of the best matches at worlds.

[sciencenuetzel]

[QUOTE=INsight;1570926]
INsight Prediction for State - 91% breach / 54% capture


Seems like you were underestimating the power of the Hoosiers. After the first day the rates are 97.83 % breach / 66% capture.

There was only TWO times today that a team did NOT have a breach. (Last match was one of them...)

[IndySam]

We are 9 for 9 in breaches and 8 out of 9 for captures and finished 3-6. The competition here is amazing.

[Theseusgoats]

This competition is just insanely competitive. I mean just look at the depth of the robots.eliminations will be really exciting.

[Theseusgoats]

Good job all the teams, particularly4103, 1024, and 1529. You guys were a great alliance. Also congratulations to 868, 135 and everyone else who qualified. 71, 3940, 4982, 234, and 1741 you guys had a great season and should be proud of yourselves regardless of what happened. Anyway, great job all the Indiana teams and let's hope for an Einstein run for Indiana.

[HenryBlack]

Wow! An amazing weekend from all teams. Indiana has truly proven how competitive it can be. I look forward to seeing the teams compete and represent their state at worlds.

As for the robots, all I can say is "wow!" We've seen some amazing improvement over the last few weeks. It's a shame more teams from Indiana won't be attending champs this year (like 1741!).

Congratulations to the winners of the event: 1024, 4103, and 1529! I really thought those finals matches were going to be much closer than they were. I think we can attribute that to 1529's out-of-the-blue never-seen-before strategies, though! The way they repeatedly rammed 1501 to knock their treads off was something I never would have thought of. Taking out the alliance captain so they can't compete? Amazing!
At first I thought it was just an accident, but then they did it again during the second match, proving they knew just how to win! Good job again guys, I'm sure you're all proud of that victory!

Congratulations to 868 as well for winning Chairman's! Congrats to 135 for winning Engineering Inspiration! And good luck to 6012, who will be the rookie team representing Indiana! And good luck to all the other teams competing at champs! Again, it's a shame more teams couldn't have gone. I'm sure 234 will be missed this year!

Phenomenal job, Indiana.

[Chas4739]

I think we can attribute that to 1529's out-of-the-blue never-seen-before strategies, though! The way they repeatedly rammed 1501 to knock their treads off was something I never would have thought of. Taking out the alliance captain so they can't compete? Amazing!
At first I thought it was just an accident, but then they did it again during the second match, proving they knew just how to win! Good job again guys, I'm sure you're all proud of that victory!


G24 Strategies aimed at the destruction or inhibition of ROBOTS via attachment, damage, tipping, entanglements, or deliberately putting a BOULDER on an opponent’s ROBOT are not allowed.
Violation: FOUL and YELLOW CARD. If harm or incapacitation occurs as a result of the strategy, RED CARD

You do realize that strategies aimed to disable a robot is illegal, and should have resulted in a yellow/red card, right?

[logank013]

You do realize that strategies aimed to disable a robot is illegal, and should have resulted in a yellow/red card, right?

I don't think the intent of their strategy was to hurt 1501's robot. Knowing their students and the drive coach, that'd never be in the strategy. Hitting them over and over again may have been apart of their strategy but it would have been to cut down 1501's cycle times. Not to make them lose a tread.

[Carl C]

I think we can attribute that to 1529's out-of-the-blue never-seen-before strategies, though! The way they repeatedly rammed 1501 to knock their treads off was something I never would have thought of. Taking out the alliance captain so they can't compete? Amazing!



This kind of backhanded compliment is not in the spirit of gracious professionalism and rather disappointing to see. Whether or not the defense was legal or justified is up to the discretion of the referees and it is unfair to everyone involved to imply a lack of moral character in any of the involved teams.

[Sitton323]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Chas4739]

I don't think the intent of their strategy was to hurt 1501's robots. Knowing their students and the drive coach, that'd never be in the strategy. Hitting them over and over again may have been apart of their strategy but it would have been to cut down 1501's cycle times. Not to make them lose a tread.

I want to agree with you and would agree with you if it hadn't happened twice

[Theseusgoats]

I believe they were only going for the pin the first match but then in the second match they may have repeated the gesture in order to disable them. However, the cybercards arent ones to intentionally hurt robots or do foul play. However, I have noticed some bias against 1501 in Indiana, although they had a very very lucky draw in qualifications.

[logank013]

I want to agree with you and would agree with you if it hadn't happened twice

I'm not sure what you guys saw. Obviously you guys were more observant than we were since it was your robot but harassment is apart of the game. It wouldn't have mattered if it was you or another team. Hitting a team over and over will decrease their cycle time. No matter what alliance they were against, they probably would have done the same thing to them. I'm sorry your tread came off, especially coming from another tread team and the fact I really do like the people on 1501 a lot. But also from being close with our sister school of 1529, I would really, really, really be surprised if their whole reason for hitting you was to make you lose a tread. I could only think it was about slowing cycle time and I'd never think anything else of it until real proof is shown. I'll watch the matches again but that's my opinion on it so far.

[AquaMorph]

I want to agree with you and would agree with you if it hadn't happened twice

I think if a robot can't handle pretty standard defense played on it, it is not the fault of the robot playing the defense but rather the design of the robot that breaks. I watched both matches and the defense played by 1529 was nothing out of the ordinary.

[bam-bam]

1501 lost the Perry district on a red card for popping 1024's tanks when they played defense.

1529 played similar defense (as in reaching inside the frame perimeter underneath 1501's bumpers), yet no red card was called.... twice.

I'm sure no one intended harm, but I can understand why the finals loss stings a lot.

[Chas4739]

I'm not sure what you guys saw. Obviously you guys were more observant than we were since it was your robot but harassment is apart of the game. It wouldn't have mattered if it was you or another team. Hitting a team over and over will decrease their cycle time. No matter what alliance they were against, they probably would have done the same thing to them. I'm sorry your tread came off, especially coming from another tread team and the fact I really do like the people on 1501 a lot. But also from being close with our sister school of 1529, I would really, really, really be surprised if their whole reason for hitting you was to make you lose a tread. I could only think it was about slowing cycle time and I'd never think anything else of it until real proof is shown. I'll watch the matches again but that's my opinion on it so far.

You make a good point and I'm probably just being biased

[iBleedBlue48]

1501 lost the Perry district on a red card for popping 1024's tanks when they played defense.

1529 played similar defense (as in reaching inside the frame perimeter underneath 1501's bumpers), yet no red card was called.... twice.

I'm sure no one intended harm, but I can understand why the finals loss stings a lot.

Yeah three silvers this season, thankfully the district system was in place and our loss did not stop us from going to worlds!

[HenryBlack]

Finals Match 1: https://youtu.be/fwnnv3AKi8I
Finals Match 2: https://youtu.be/CDKZ8zo4ubA

While you might just see simple defense, I see a coordinated strategy by the CyberCards! At first, it seems like it might have been a happy accident in the first match. Perhaps it was! But a second time? In two matches? Too strategic to be an accident!

Notice how in the second match, 1524 allows 447 to slip into the courtyard in order to wait for 1501... Strategic!

1501 had previously had little to no issues with their treads before the finals! And then twice in two matches!

What is odd, however, is this was extremely similar to Finals Match 3 of Perry Meridian! Take a look!: https://youtu.be/L8mz-pHRbJ8
Ramming the side of a robot to play defense in the neutral zone... Looks exactly the same!

The key difference being... 1501 was red-carded and disqualified! For extending into the frame perimeter and causing damage to 1024... Wait a second... Isn't that what 1529 did to 1501? Twice?

[logank013]

Finals Match 1: https://youtu.be/fwnnv3AKi8I
Finals Match 2: https://youtu.be/CDKZ8zo4ubA

While you might just see simple defense, I see a coordinated strategy by the CyberCards! At first, it seems like it might have been a happy accident in the first match. Perhaps it was! But a second time? In two matches? Too strategic to be an accident!

Notice how in the second match, 1524 allows 447 to slip into the courtyard in order to wait for 1501... Strategic!

1501 had previously had little to no issues with their treads before the finals! And then twice in two matches!

What is odd, however, is this was extremely similar to Finals Match 3 of Perry Meridian! Take a look!: https://youtu.be/L8mz-pHRbJ8
Ramming the side of a robot to play defense in the neutral zone... Looks exactly the same!

The key difference being... 1501 was red-carded and disqualified! For extending into the frame perimeter and causing damage to 1024... Wait a second... Isn't that what 1529 did to 1501? Twice?

Sorry it seems like I'm defending 1529 so much. I love 1501 and 1529 but 1529 had many reasons to target 1501. They had the best high goal average on the alliance. They were tall. And last of all, they were the team that would have been most affected by slowing cycle times from impact. I find your targeting at 1529 not very well thought out with inconclusive evidence.

Edit: After watching match 2 again, 1529 hit 447 as well. They weren't just targeting 1501. Their goal was to slow cycle times. In the first match, 1529 hit 1501 3 times and the tread came off. In the second match, they hit 1501 2 or 3 times when their tread popped off. If you look at the head ref, he is counting pin seconds. 1529 was obviously not trying to pin 1501 seeing as they never really pinned them for more than 2 seconds which is very normal.

Also, the fact that the wonderful referee crew didn't seem to even consider a card tells me what 1529 was doing was probably very legal. The referee crew in IN has been amazing and they really knows their rules. They would have easily been able to pick up on a strategy aimed at intentional harm.

[HenryBlack]

Also, the fact that the wonderful referee crew didn't seem to even consider a card tells me what 1529 was doing was probably very legal. The referee crew in IN has been amazing and they really knows their rules. They would have easily been able to pick up on a strategy aimed at intentional harm.

For the untrained eye, could you please tell me what 1501 did in Finals 3 of Perry Meridian that looked like they wanted to intentionally harm 1024? Especially when compared to the finals matches of State Champs!

[IndySam]

I was standing right next to the field and what I saw was good hard defense. If you notice the damage happens not when 1529 hits hard but simply when 1501 is pushed sideways. The hard hits occur only after 1501 was damaged and could no longer get out of the way.

There is no way that 1529 intention was to disable 1501.

[AquaMorph]

For the untrained eye, could you please tell me what 1501 did in Finals 3 of Perry Meridian that looked like they wanted to intentionally harm 1024? Especially when compared to the finals matches of State Champs!

I went back and watched that match and I don't think that deserved a red card but the rules leave that decision to the head referee. So that's why calls can be so inconsistent from event to event.

[logank013]

For the untrained eye, could you please tell me what 1501 did in Finals 3 of Perry Meridian that looked like they wanted to intentionally harm 1024? Especially when compared to the finals matches of State Champs!

Look at finals match 3. Look at 111 seconds left. 1501's whole left front corner is inside of 1024's robot. This by rule is a red card foul. Intentional? Absolutely not. This is because 1501's bumpers are high. 1529's robot is super low and never reached inside of 1501's robot. The card on 1501 at Perry was because of reaching inside of their robot. Not because of intentional harm! Not to sound rude but you aren't understanding the rules correctly. Reaching inside of a robot and playing tough defense are two very very different things. End of story.

[BoilerMentor]

So, all this recent conversation is interesting and all, but I have to point something out, or ask a question I guess.

DID ANYONE GET A PICTURE OF THE MONKEY?

Seriously, this has to be the first time in FIRST history a literal monkey had to be removed from an event. It might even be the first time a monkey has ever even been at an event?

This banana for scale thing is getting out of hand.

[logank013]

So, all this recent conversation is interesting and all, but I have to point something out, or ask a question I guess.

DID ANYONE GET A PICTURE OF THE MONKEY?

Seriously, this has to be the first time in FIRST history a literal monkey had to be removed from an event. It might even be the first time a monkey has ever even been at an event?

This banana for scale thing is getting out of hand.

Can you explain what happened? I missed this entirely.

[XaulZan11]

Look at finals match 3. Look at 111 seconds left. 1501's whole left front corner is inside of 1024's robot. This by rule is a red card foul. Intentional? Absolutely not. This is because 1501's bumpers are high. 1529's robot is super low and never reached inside of 1501's robot. The card on 1501 at Perry was because of reaching inside of their robot. Not because of intentional harm! Not to sound rude but you aren't understanding the rules correctly. Reaching inside of a robot and playing tough defense are two very very different things. End of story.

Perhaps it's because things were called differently* in (https://youtu.be/NQVNTnSbLtI?t=3m30s) my (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqD-vG4pgDI&feature=youtu.be&t=2m23s) region (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hEKvj2FL3w&feature=youtu.be&t=2m25s), but I don't see any fouls in either matches in question, especially not on 1529 for bumper to bumper contact.

*And, in my opinion, the right way ;)

[Edxu]

From HenryBlack's videos, I think that both hits are legal. While it's pretty hard to make a line between "their robot driving up onto yours while you defend them" and "you drove under their robot", I think that in the spirit of an offense-oriented game, 1529's defense was well-played and legal.

As discussed earlier in the thread by Logank, 1501 was the powerhouse team on the alliance, so 1529 was well-justified in trying to slow the cycle down as much as possible.

[Theseusgoats]

1529 was definetly trying to slow down cycle times, it's just that 1501 was the best shooter on the field and so they were priority.

[Theseusgoats]

Also, could we just stop complaining already? The call was controversial but 1501 and 868 made it through anyway. The only team really affected was 447 who deserved to go through less than 1529.

[Hope O'Connor]

Also, could we just stop complaining already? The call was controversial but 1501 and 868 made it through anyway. The only team really affected was 447 who deserved to go through less than 1529.

I don't think that's very fair of you to say who is more "deserving" of going through or not. Both 447 and 1529 played really well so that wasn't necessary to say.

[RTFM2016]

Congratulations to the winners of the event: 1024, 4103, and 1529! I really thought those finals matches were going to be much closer than they were. I think we can attribute that to 1529's out-of-the-blue never-seen-before strategies, though! The way they repeatedly rammed 1501 to knock their treads off was something I never would have thought of. Taking out the alliance captain so they can't compete? Amazing!
At first I thought it was just an accident, but then they did it again during the second match, proving they knew just how to win! Good job again guys, I'm sure you're all proud of that victory!

You must make your team so proud. You don't come off as bitter at all. I bet you their sleeping just fine, while you (probably) and I are still awake thinking about what might have been.

I believe they were only going for the pin the first match but then in the second match they may have repeated the gesture in order to disable them. However, the cybercards arent ones to intentionally hurt robots or do foul play. However, I have noticed some bias against 1501 in Indiana, although they had a very very lucky draw in qualifications.

Bold claim. I'd love to see your evidence at how there was any bias against 1501. Because, you know, every referee has it out for that poor little team from Huntington so much that built a world-class robot that made it to finals at 3 events that their team apparently can't be proud of. It's not like any other team in the state got called for a G24 red card earlier in the year, say at an event like Tippecanoe? Darn referees, always hating on all those good teams...

1501 lost the Perry district on a red card for popping 1024's tanks when they played defense.

1529 played similar defense (as in reaching inside the frame perimeter underneath 1501's bumpers), yet no red card was called.... twice.

I'm sure no one intended harm, but I can understand why the finals loss stings a lot.

Again, a bold claim. I'd love to see your evidence at how there was any contact inside the frame perimeter against 1501. Let me guess, you were watching a webcast from the comfort of your home. And you had a better view than the head referee, who had the interaction happen right in front of him. I look forward to your screen-capture (or photoshopped image) showing 1529 magically extending their arm (which was facing the opposite direction) under 1501.

You do realize that strategies aimed to disable a robot is illegal, and should have resulted in a yellow/red card, right?

If you're going to quote a rule, I'd suggest you include the entire rule (e.g. the blue box), like so:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-D9v4huLS3T8/VxMhthcXPdI/AAAAAAAAFBs/xiDljCBl93Y/w882-h211-no/G24_Complete.PNG

With the addition of the blue box, damage is specifically defined to outlaw deliberate or damaging contact inside of the frame perimeter.

For those who feel "damage" should include the type of contact demonstrated by 1529, per the letter of the law, see below:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-jRkIJt-0DGo/VxMhqhbtXEI/AAAAAAAAFBs/veeetiTmlPgS7VDP4nBdMRHtk8pgQQQlwCL0B/w949-h213-no/Robust.PNG

/*SARCASM ALERT, I REPEAT, SARCASM ALERT*/
/*CONTENTS MAY BE TOO HOT FOR SOME TO HANDLE*/

Note to self: Create 2017 robot structure out of Styrofoam. Complain when robot breaks from contact. Get all the red cards. Win all the events. If event not won, complain loudly and publicly.

/*WE RETURN TO OUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED POST*/

I'd love to see you all volunteer as referees and get a view from the other side, but from your posts, I'd be more willing to bet that you couldn't handle it. :eek: (Queue "Oh no she/he didn't" soundbite)

Piece of advice / TLDR:
"Better to Remain Silent and Be Thought a Fool than to Speak and Remove All Doubt"

[BoilerMentor]

Can you explain what happened? I missed this entirely.
I'm not joking in the slightest. There was a monkey at the event. The monkey had to be removed. I'm sincerely curious if any got a picture before the poor little fella overstayed his welcome.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[Taylor]

Over the last decade plus, I have enjoyed working with 1501 on many projects. Whether it was allying with them at events, championing STEM at the Indiana Statehouse together, scrambling to fix field issues at the CAGE Match, or serving together on the IndianaFIRST board, there's no question our teams have a long history of being #friendswithrobots. I personally hold no other team in higher regard than THRUST. I'm good friends with a few of their alumni, and I know for a fact that they.do.things.right. Heck, my eyes still water when I think about Dr. Flowers on bended knee, presenting Chris Elston with his well-deserved WFFA at the 2011 BMR.

To suggest that our team would target 1501 (or any team in the world) and intentionally cause damage to their machine is hurtful, and, honestly, preposterous.

Again, a bold claim. I'd love to see your evidence at how there was any contact inside the frame perimeter against 1501. Let me guess, you were watching a webcast from the comfort of your home. And you had a better view than the head referee, who had the interaction happen right in front of him.

bam-bam, or as I like to call him, Rei, was a field queuer at the event. So, he actually had a much better view of the match than 99% of the world.
Rei was a Southport student, a 1529 member, his first two years of high school. When his family moved to the north side of the state, I worked with 1501 mentors to make sure his transition between teams was smooth and while I was sad to lose a key team member, I was happy for Rei that he had a chance to work with a team that has a long history of Doing It Right, and I was ecstatic for him that he got to be on a team that took home a blue banner in 2012. So if you're going to make nasty comments about people making unfounded claims without all the information, I suggest you first get a mirror.

[Road Rash]

Piece of advice / TLDR:
"Better to Remain Silent and Be Thought a Fool than to Speak and Remove All Doubt"

I've used a very similar quote as my standard forum signature for years. :D

EDIT: You should really consider following your own advice after I read the quote below:

So if you're going to make nasty comments about people making unfounded claims without all the information, I suggest you first get a mirror.

[Peyton Yeung]

I think the level of competitiveness in Indiana was unfounded this year. Losing our first semifinal match with a score of 192 to 180 was pretty impressive. Also losing a couple of qual matches with a score of 130 was impressive as well. Overall the intensity of the event was unprecedented in Indiana and I'm hopeful that it continues on for next year.

The fact that Indiana is only sending 10 total teams is a little rough as there are many great robots/teams that deserve to go.

[bam-bam]

You all are correct. 1529 never physically extended in the frame perimeter, and that was how I worded my post. I won't correct my OP, but I'll clarify here.

To give a small disclaimer: no, I am not associated with any of the teams at the moment in my sig, including 1529, 1501, and 461. This was all my opinion.

Yes, Taylor is correct. I was on the field, queuing. I had a direct look at how 1501's threads came off. I don't have any proof except for Taylor's words, a green sharpie marker, and a highlighter, so.... take that as you will.

I had thought initially that 1529 had popped the tracks off by contacting the tracks when 1501's and 1529's drivebases aligned fairly closely. 1501 had a small clearance between the frame perimeter planes (bumpers) and tracks, so touching the tracks would mean technically passing the frame perimeter. 1529 was able to do this due to how low the bumpers were, and did contact the tracks several times while 1501 was immobilized. I was surprised to see no red card called. If anything, it was an accident.

What happened at Perry is relevant here, since I brought it up.... 1501 had played defense against 1024, popped one of their tanks with a corner of a bumper, and red carded their alliance that match. The score showed that 1501 would have won if not for that fault. If anything, it was an accident.

See how similar the two circumstances are? I'm just saying I know quite a few people on 1501 were frustrated at this. The refs were fantastic with their jobs, and the end of the day, it's the final call. I can't speak for 1501 as a whole, but I'm okay with that.

That was the meaning I had meant to convey. No attacks meant to be made.

[bam-bam]

Great weather, great venue, great people, great robots, great matches, great.... Well, everything.

I'm so incredibly surprised to see how many teams managed to add a consistent high goal shot. From off the top of my head.... 447, 1720, 5484, 3147... It speaks a lot when when of the top shooting robots in 4982 falls all the way to 7th pick.

Kokomo's so wonderful! The Memorial Gym was a great place to play the state championship. I hope Indiana FIRST brings the event back to Kokomo next year. Thanks to 45, 292, and 3940 for hosting.

Congrats to the state champions 4103-1024-1529, in particular to 1529. When I left the team, all that were left was 4 mentors and 11 or so students... which whittled down to 1 mentor and 7 students the following year. To go from that to winning their first blue banner in their first finals.... I never thought I would be able to see it live. Here's to a brighter future.

Congrats to 461 and 1747 advancing to world champs. You make Purdue proud.

I'll echo Peyton's words. The fact that 4982, 234, 1741, 71, 3940, 5403, 3176..... Well, too many to name, won't advance is sad. The first four in particular would do incredibly well at a regional.

Congrats to 868 (Chairman's), 135 (EI), and 6012 (RAS).

Congrats to all the alliances for incredible matches. It was very fun to watch all the interesting strategies put into play. Low goal then double capture (234-71-1741), drafting a team with no ball control (461-1747-3176), to the top alliances (1501-868-447 and 4103-1024-1529). I have no idea how 1529 and 447 were left for the final two.

EDIT: And thank you to the wonderful queuers I worked with this weekend. This was something I enjoyed doing greatly!

[Theseusgoats]

I don't think that's very fair of you to say who is more "deserving" of going through or not. Both 447 and 1529 played really well so that wasn't necessary to say.

Sorry if I came off rude, I only meant to say that as an alliance, 1529 seemed to have a stronger strategy than 447. Overall they were just more effective in fulfilling their role.

[efoote868]

I'm disappointed for losing in the finals at a super competitive district championship, but that's how it goes. I don't think armchair/bleacher refereeing does much good, the referees were right there to see what happened, they discussed the game play and made their call.

Congratulations to 4103, 1024 and 1529 on your impressive game play, I'm looking forward to playing with you or against you on Einstein this year :)

It's also impressive that the teams during qualifications averaged 2.6 out of 3.0 qualification points per match. While Indiana might not be one of the biggest states for FRC, we're certainly right there in terms of competitiveness. To the rest of our ambassadors going to St. Louis, I'm certain you'll make us proud. To the rest of Indiana, we'll see you at IRI or next year!

[Lil' Lavery]

So, all this recent conversation is interesting and all, but I have to point something out, or ask a question I guess.

DID ANYONE GET A PICTURE OF THE MONKEY?

Seriously, this has to be the first time in FIRST history a literal monkey had to be removed from an event. It might even be the first time a monkey has ever even been at an event?

This banana for scale thing is getting out of hand.

Guys. All this talk about the finals is great and all, but I need to know about this. This is of the utmost importance.

[BoilerMentor]

Guys. All this talk about the finals is great and all, but I need to know about this. This is of the utmost importance.

Nobody has a picture of the monkey... This is devastating news.

[Gefowl]

So, all this recent conversation is interesting and all, but I have to point something out, or ask a question I guess.

DID ANYONE GET A PICTURE OF THE MONKEY?

Seriously, this has to be the first time in FIRST history a literal monkey had to be removed from an event. It might even be the first time a monkey has ever even been at an event?

This banana for scale thing is getting out of hand.

This is the monkey business everyone should be talking about.

[Carolyn_Grace]

This is the monkey business everyone should be talking about.

I heard it was a tiny monkey too. And that there were bananas.
Not sure if they were "for scale" though...

[Gefowl]

I heard it was a tiny monkey too. And that there were bananas.
Not sure if they were "for scale" though...

Maybe the banana's were in scale for the monkey. I can't imagine a small
monkey eating a normal sized banana.

Did a zoo bring the monkey or did someone from a team bring it? a little curious

[Chris_Elston]

I am sorry that this thread has turn into something to take away from the ENTIRE State of Indiana, and is leaving a negative taste about who we really are in Indiana perspectively to outsiders. The teams in Indiana are UPSTANDING examples of what Gracious and Professionalism are. It is unfortunate that sometimes comments are made like these that aren't necessarily the viewpoints of the team(s) mentioned. The last time I had to post back on CD was exactly the same reasons back in 2010 when "Rosie stuffed THRUST". While everyone can debate the rules on what is right or wrong, what is done is done and we are already moving forward.

Sure we "aren't happy" with the outcome, but can you blame us? I mean personally, I was extra emotional this time around because of Perry. Did you see a negative post about Perry on CD? No...why not? Because everyone knew it wasn't intentional and they way the rules are this year just sucked. What did I do about it? I did the right thing and emailed FIRST three very blunt "constructive" suggestions. I didn't complain in my feedback, I gave them some suggestions how to communicate better to the teams and volunteers. They got my feedback and I am sure they will consider my suggestions to prevent anything like that from happening in the future.

Factually the first time 1529 hit us in FM1 was bumper to bumper and caused our Rhino track to de-rail, totally LEGAL in my opinion hence rendering us useless the rest of the match. I was ok with that one. We had to take a timeout and barely made it back on the field. It didn't appear to me that the winning alliance even knew what they had done. The second time it happened, I can assure you, if anyone of you was in my shoes, you would be as upset as I was especially when the same EXACT thing happened, exactly the same EXACT way. I said some things face-to-face to some coaches I regretted DEEPLY as my first response to them field side, only because I wanted to know myself if it was intentional in the heat of the moment to de-rail our Rhino track a second time. After I said the things I said, PRIVATELY to the coaches (the best way to understand a situation), I saw their reactions and I knew they were genuine. I don't normally get emotional, but again, I hope you understand why I was extra sensitive because of what I had already went through with my team this season. I apologize to the coaches (twice) because I wanted to know, even though I could not at the time make it sound "professional" the first time it came out of my mouth at the heat of the moment. Yes even sometimes I mess up....

In no way are the comments above, reflect the feelings of Team 1501. I am sorry that "HenryBlack" and "RTFM2016" has said the things they have said. They have a right to any opinion just as anyone else does. I don't know who you are, even if you are a member of 1501 or not. If you are a member of 1501, I am sorry that I have failed you as a mentor of our team to be humble and understand that things can happen in real life even beyond robotics. I hope that whoever you are, you can look past this and see some very positive light. After all, we are still going to World Championship...some teams have NEVER BEEN, like 1529...

In one way, it's been a long time struggle of 1529 to get to this point. You see our team number is 1501 and they are 1529. We are next to them, side-by-side in the pits at every single event, every single year. We have watched them struggle as we grew together over the past 12 years. We have watched them win some small battles, but their team still moved on and came back year after year. Recently Danny stepped up to mentor them and helped them get moving into a positive direction. I've seen years when there wasn't a robot fully assembled in the bag. We've loaned them parts, tools and we've helped them as much as we can. Finally both 1529 and 4103 got a break to play in the finals to come out of a long slump of pains and struggles, and from Indiana's standpoint, we are proud of them for making it into the finals and winning State Championship and going to the World Championship for the first time. That is the most positive thing that has happened that they deserve that chance to compete. You see carma had it, that it didn't matter if we won or lost, 1501 was going to make it into Worlds, but that's the way the monkey got away.

1529 showed us that we better figure out how to improve our Rhino tracks before Worlds because that could happen again. (If you have a Rhino track, take notes...) We took a risk of using a product without knowing any previous field history and we learn from these failures and make improvements to move on. The Rhino track failure is our responsibility, we assumed the risk and no one should be blamed for our risk. The treads have 71 STRONGHOLD matches on them, FOUR...TOUGH...EVENTS... They look "rough""worn to the white in small spots""small de-lams on the edges""the inside rib is ate up", we had debated on changing them before State and didn't because of time and pain level, but will now change the treads for Worlds. There is also a learning curve of "tension". They are designed with a center rib to keep them from de-railing, but only when "properly" tensioned. We are still trying to understand the best tension and how it affects crossing certain defenses. Maybe we didn't tension it right, all things we are checking into to understand the product better before Worlds. All things that are our responsibility and no one else is to blame, not even the supplier of the product. Just because I buy a new car and wreck it doesn't mean it's the car maker's fault I wrecked the car is it?

Definitely if life gives you lemons, make lemonade. Try not and point fingers and cause negative energy. That's not who we are in the State of Indiana. I would not want to compete anywhere else in the USA because I know all of the mentors and teams in the state try and help each other out the best we can because we are all on the same page to see that in the end, we stand together and we inspire the students for the future.

[BoilerMentor]

Mike Taylor and Chris Elston proving why they have their respective WFFAs. Hats off gentlemen. See you both at worlds. I couldn't be more excited for the showing Indiana is going to be making this year.

[Wayne Doenges]

In no way are the comments above, reflect the feelings of Team 1501. I am sorry that "HenryBlack" and "RTFM2016" has said the things they have said. They have a right to any opinion just as anyone else does. I don't know who you are, even if you are a member of 1501 or not. If you are a member of 1501, I am sorry that I have failed you as a mentor of our team to be humble and understand that things can happen in real life even beyond robotics. I hope that whoever you are, you can look past this and see some very positive light. After all, we are still going to World Championship...some teams have NEVER BEEN, like 1529...

In one way, it's been a long time struggle of 1529 to get to this point. You see our team number is 1501 and they are 1529. We are next to them, side-by-side in the pits at every single event, every single year. We have watched them struggle as we grew together over the past 12 years. We have watched them win some small battles, but their team still moved on and came back year after year. Recently Danny stepped up to mentor them and helped them get moving into a positive direction. I've seen years when there wasn't a robot fully assembled in the bag. We've loaned them parts, tools and we've helped them as much as we can. Finally both 1529 and 4103 got a break to play in the finals to come out of a long slump of pains and struggles, and from Indiana's standpoint, we are proud of them for making it into the finals and winning State Championship and going to the World Championship for the first time. That is the most positive thing that has happened that they deserve that chance to compete. You see karma had it, that it didn't matter if we won or lost, 1501 was going to make it into Worlds, but that's the way the monkey got away.
What he said :D

[RockRGI]

Also, could we just stop complaining already? The call was controversial but 1501 and 868 made it through anyway. The only team really affected was 447 who deserved to go through less than 1529.

Of all the comments on this thread I find this one to be the one leaving me scratching my head. Why did 447 deserve it less?

What is most important however is that this season, being my son and I's first year, was absolutely amazing. To see what the kids on 447 accomplished firsthand and what all the teams accomplished from event to event was just awesome. While it would have been great to make World's, the journey is what is the most important.

I have enjoyed watching the problem solving, team work, strategy meetings, and execution by all of the teams this year. The willingness for one team to help another, even if they may face them in later matches, brings joy to my heart and tells me there is still good in this world.

Best of luck to all the teams representing Indiana at World's. We had a great run and I am proud of what our kids accomplished. It's not always about whether you win or lose, but how you play the game that matters. I know our kids put everything they had into the process and I am sure the other teams did as well.

See you all in off season events and again next year for a new game!

[Theseusgoats]

Of all the comments on this thread I find this one to be the one leaving me scratching my head. Why did 447 deserve it less?

What is most important however is that this season, being my son and I's first year, was absolutely amazing. To see what the kids on 447 accomplished firsthand and what all the teams accomplished from event to event was just awesome. While it would have been great to make World's, the journey is what is the most important.

I have enjoyed watching the problem solving, team work, strategy meetings, and execution by all of the teams this year. The willingness for one team to help another, even if they may face them in later matches, brings joy to my heart and tells me there is still good in this world.

Best of luck to all the teams representing Indiana at World's. We had a great run and I am proud of what our kids accomplished. It's not always about whether you win or lose, but how you play the game that matters. I know our kids put everything they had into the process and I am sure the other teams did as well.

See you all in off season events and again next year for a new game!
Agian, sorry if I came off rude but I was just saying that the whole alliance of 1529 just seemed to have had a more well thought out strategy. I'm sure you guys, 1529, as well as pretty much every team tried their best and had a thoroughly enjoyable season.

[RockRGI]

Agian, sorry if I came off rude but I was just saying that the whole alliance of 1529 just seemed to have had a more well thought out strategy. I'm sure you guys, 1529, as well as pretty much every team tried their best and had a thoroughly enjoyable season.

No apology needed, I was simply trying to understand the thought behind the comment. In the finals, once the track slipped on 1501, it was do whatever we could to try to keep up for sure.

I didn't see any team out there this year who deserved it "less" than any other and wondered what you may have seen to come to that conclusion. Of course we were disappointed in the end result, but that is how the cookie crumbled. I didn't see anything improper in the match, and had we been against 1501, we would have likely focused on slowing their cycle times down as well. If you paid attention this season, we had no issue with playing tight defense. The track coming off was fortunate for the blue alliance and unfortunate for our alliance.

It was definitely a fun season, look forward to many more to come.