Everyone's A Winner?

[NoahB4536]

This last weekend my team competed at the Minnesota 10K lakes regional. As per usual there were lots of speakers but it seemed to me like this year they talked a lot about how everyone was a winner by just showing up to the event. Now I am not bashing the speakers, I just wanted to address an issue that has come up in other sports, which is that if competitors at an event are told that everyone is a winner it can take away some of the joy of winning and interfere with the competition aspect of coopertition. Calling everyone a winner can also make it tough for people to deal with losing, although that is mostly with younger kids. I was in the pits for some of the regional so I did not get to watch every speaker and therefore cannot attest to the extent to which this was occurring but I do believe that it is important for the FRC to not give into the concept of everyone being a winner. There are three winning teams in a regional and although that does not necessarily mean that the other teams are "losers" it does mean that the other teams can be motivated to learn and improve in their pursuit of excellence.

[Type]

This last weekend my team competed at the Minnesota 10K lakes regional. As per usual there were lots of speakers but it seemed to me like this year they talked a lot about how everyone was a winner by just showing up to the event. Now I am not bashing the speakers, I just wanted to address an issue that has come up in other sports, which is that if competitors at an event are told that everyone is a winner it can take away some of the joy of winning and interfere with the competition aspect of coopertition. Calling everyone a winner can also make it tough for people to deal with losing, although that is mostly with younger kids. I was in the pits for some of the regional so I did not get to watch every speaker and therefore cannot attest to the extent to which this was occurring but I do believe that it is important for the FRC to not give into the concept of everyone being a winner. There are three winning teams in a regional and although that does not necessarily mean that the other teams are "losers" it does mean that the other teams can be motivated to learn and improve in their pursuit of excellence.

I agree, not everyone is a winner. Our Coach has told us that before, he says that 2nd place is the first loser. After we got 2nd place at our first event, I asked if we were going ton dinner to celebrate since we made it to finals with a nearly rookie team, yet he said no since we didn't win. I agree with not everybody are winners. If everybody was a "winner", it would take the motivation out of competing so toughly

[Ginger Power]

Depends on how you define being a winner. If you mean you're a winner of the competition, that's one way to think about it. You could also mean that those students at the events were winners because they are getting a fantastic experience, and learning a heck of a lot about Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math. I'm certain the speakers were referring to the latter.

[gblake]

This last weekend my team competed at the Minnesota 10K lakes regional. As per usual there were lots of speakers but it seemed to me like this year they talked a lot about how everyone was a winner by just showing up to the event. Now I am not bashing the speakers, I just wanted to address an issue that has come up in other sports, which is that if competitors at an event are told that everyone is a winner it can take away some of the joy of winning and interfere with the competition aspect of coopertition. Calling everyone a winner can also make it tough for people to deal with losing, although that is mostly with younger kids. I was in the pits for some of the regional so I did not get to watch every speaker and therefore cannot attest to the extent to which this was occurring but I do believe that it is important for the FRC to not give into the concept of everyone being a winner. There are three winning teams in a regional and although that does not necessarily mean that the other teams are "losers" it does mean that the other teams can be motivated to learn and improve in their pursuit of excellence.It's fine for the speakers to say that at an FRC competition, because, while FIRST/FRC uses competition(s), FRC's primary goal is causing cultural change and then seeing individuals in those cultures reap the benefits from the change. Also, participants who are involved and then show up at an event absorb skills, etc. that are valuable for a lifetime.

Winning a cheesy trophy or banner isn't what it means to "win" in FIRST.

That's why it can be sensible to say that you "win" just by showing up.

Don't be too distracted by the shiny robots, and the games they play. Enjoy them, but keep your eyes on the real prize(s).

Blake
PS: Of course, it is possible to both attend an FRC event, and actively avoid receiving any benefits from the experience. I don't mind if a speaker ignores those exceptions to the general rule.

[Liu346]

This last weekend my team competed at the Minnesota 10K lakes regional. As per usual there were lots of speakers but it seemed to me like this year they talked a lot about how everyone was a winner by just showing up to the event. Now I am not bashing the speakers, I just wanted to address an issue that has come up in other sports, which is that if competitors at an event are told that everyone is a winner it can take away some of the joy of winning and interfere with the competition aspect of coopertition. Calling everyone a winner can also make it tough for people to deal with losing, although that is mostly with younger kids. I was in the pits for some of the regional so I did not get to watch every speaker and therefore cannot attest to the extent to which this was occurring but I do believe that it is important for the FRC to not give into the concept of everyone being a winner. There are three winning teams in a regional and although that does not necessarily mean that the other teams are "losers" it does mean that the other teams can be motivated to learn and improve in their pursuit of excellence.

Our team also believes that not everyone is a winner in competition standards. The only thing is the pre match speeches are to encourage the people who are not winners to not give up on their dreams and even if they lose the competition that they can still be a successful engineer. Our drive team often is deprived of sprinkles after competitions in which they do not come first place. Good Luck all teams.

[Alan Anderson]

"I'm not going to tell you all that you all are winners. At this point you are smart enough to know whether you are or you aren't." - Woodie Flowers

[Zyrano]

I agree, not everyone is a winner. Our Coach has told us that before, he says that 2nd place is the first loser. After we got 2nd place at our first event, I asked if we were going ton dinner to celebrate since we made it to finals with a nearly rookie team, yet he said no since we didn't win. I agree with not everybody are winners. If everybody was a "winner", it would take the motivation out of competing so toughly

I don't think I agree with this. The celebration should be working hard and fielding a robot and physically being there competing fiercely. If every team's success is defined by winning, then what you are saying is all other teams that were not on the winning alliance had failed. The Robot is only a vehicle, personally, as a mentor, success and winning is defined by how many kids are inspired. I don't really care whether you call everyone a winner, but I honestly think that each team that are there competing was successful.

[Tyler_Kaplan]

This last weekend my team competed at the Minnesota 10K lakes regional. As per usual there were lots of speakers but it seemed to me like this year they talked a lot about how everyone was a winner by just showing up to the event. Now I am not bashing the speakers, I just wanted to address an issue that has come up in other sports, which is that if competitors at an event are told that everyone is a winner it can take away some of the joy of winning and interfere with the competition aspect of coopertition. Calling everyone a winner can also make it tough for people to deal with losing, although that is mostly with younger kids. I was in the pits for some of the regional so I did not get to watch every speaker and therefore cannot attest to the extent to which this was occurring but I do believe that it is important for the FRC to not give into the concept of everyone being a winner. There are three winning teams in a regional and although that does not necessarily mean that the other teams are "losers" it does mean that the other teams can be motivated to learn and improve in their pursuit of excellence.

I am going to respectfully disagree with saying that there are three winners at a competition. FIRST is about far more than the outcome of the finals. For example, I would consider the winners of the Chairman's award huge winners, same with awards like engineering inspiration and rookie all star. Being a winner in FIRST is not black and white. It's about what you as an individual and a team get out of the experience. As a mentor, I look at it as what we can do to serve our community, and how to give students tools to succeed in their lives.

[GreyingJay]

Good: "everybody's a winner - even if you didn't rank #1 and take home a trophy, the successes you saw and the experiences you had will mould and shape you for years to come"

Bad: "everybody's a winner, so we won't be ranking teams or giving out any trophies"

Our Coach has told us that before, he says that 2nd place is the first loser. After we got 2nd place at our first event, I asked if we were going ton dinner to celebrate since we made it to finals with a nearly rookie team, yet he said no since we didn't win.

I hope your coach said this light-heartedly, and that students on the team knew "what he really meant" because taken at its word, this is not an attitude I would agree with at all. Second place is an incredible achievement for any team (well, except 2056 :ahh: )

We'll got for a team dinner after our competitions regardless of whether we won or not. When we win a regional, it'll be my treat.

[Nemo]

I think "every team is a winner" is a suboptimal choice of words, because one can read the wrong message from it. For example, it seems to imply that mediocrity is okay, even though that's not what anybody intends when they say those words. "Everyone can turn pro" is a better catch phrase that captures the idea that even if we don't win the tournament, we can still be achieving success as a result of participation in FRC.

[Nyxyxylyth]

I agree, not everyone is a winner. Our Coach has told us that before, he says that 2nd place is the first loser.
Last year the team I was with were Finalists, and the winning captain graciously explained "you know... in the playoffs, if your average isn't high enough, you just don't advance. So really, there are only three losers here today."

Now before anyone gets all huffy, it was one of the most GP teams around, and it was all in fun :D

[techhelpbb]

There are elements of chance in these games.
Referees can miss crossings.
Things can happen on the field that cause field faults and replays.
People can suffer from miscommunication.

The idea that the 3 teams that win got there purely because of superior effort is unrealistic.
So therefore the top few teams deserve recognition especially since they come, pay and play.

I don't know if everyone is a winner: but if your team makes it towards the end you probably did most things at least as well as the rest and had some luck on your side. I have seen teams with serious problems in their robot make it to the end game and even win.
If the Einstein report from years ago says anything: it says that robots that win at the Championship can still have unsolved issues.

In the end if you manage to actually field a robot and learned anything you really are a winner.
I've seen FRC parts being used in Master/Doctors college classes: our 'average' is well above the average.

(I'm sorry Batman, you can't lift Manhattan, you are just second rate hero to Superman. Saving lives is obviously less important than an island bench press competition. ;))

[NoahB4536]

I am going to respectfully disagree with saying that there are three winners at a competition. FIRST is about far more than the outcome of the finals. For example, I would consider the winners of the Chairman's award huge winners, same with awards like engineering inspiration and rookie all star. Being a winner in FIRST is not black and white. It's about what you as an individual and a team get out of the experience. As a mentor, I look at it as what we can do to serve our community, and how to give students tools to succeed in their lives.

Your right that more than three teams could be considered winners but I was mostly referring to the winners of the finals. I also agree that first is about giving people the tools they need for the future and to me one of the tools people need for this world we live in, with a global economy and global competition in the job market, is understanding winning and losing and being able to learn from mistakes. I definitely think that the winners of awards are winners and having fun and getting valuable skills are important however my worry is that we might see those awards become less valued because of the mentality that everyone is a winner. I see from the other posts that most people think that if you learn you are a winner and because the FRC is a program for learning it would make sense that gained knowledge could be (and probably should be) considered a victory, I just don't want first to turn into my elementary school baseball team where if you showed up you got a medal.

[Type]

Good: "everybody's a winner - even if you didn't rank #1 and take home a trophy, the successes you saw and the experiences you had will mould and shape you for years to come"

Bad: "everybody's a winner, so we won't be ranking teams or giving out any trophies"



I hope your coach said this light-heartedly, and that students on the team knew "what he really meant" because taken at its word, this is not an attitude I would agree with at all. Second place is an incredible achievement for any team (well, except 2056 :ahh: )

We'll got for a team dinner after our competitions regardless of whether we won or not. When we win a regional, it'll be my treat.

Of course he wasn't strict about it. He worded it more like if you won, I would have to take you out to dinner. Although 2nd is good, it's not as good as 1st. If you learn to settle for shy of the best, that's what you will always end up getting. You need to strive for first. Falling short of your goal is bad, but you can't really celebrate until you meet your goal. I hope what I'm saying makes sense.

[Lil' Lavery]

I just don't want first to turn into my elementary school baseball team where if you showed up you got a medal.

FIRST used to give out bronze medals to every team who competed. These were replaced with pins provided in the KoP several years ago, presumably as a cost cutting measure.

[MaGiC_PiKaChU]

The way FIRST works, not all the best robots win their regional. In fact, most of the time, the captain and 1st pick of the finalist alliance have better robots than the 2nd pick of the winning alliance. The winners are not necessarily the best, and the best don't always win. This is how life works too, get used to it.

[Liam Fay]

I agree, not everyone is a winner. Our Coach has told us that before, he says that 2nd place is the first loser. After we got 2nd place at our first event, I asked if we were going ton dinner to celebrate since we made it to finals with a nearly rookie team, yet he said no since we didn't win. I agree with not everybody are winners. If everybody was a "winner", it would take the motivation out of competing so toughly

I disagree with this philosophy. Being second place at a regional of any kind is a phenomenal accomplishment, especially for a newer team. While it can be disappointing if that was your only hope of qualifying for CMP, it's still something you should be proud of. While it's important to always want to do better, calling 2nd place (!!) a loser is just unhealthy.

[wilsonmw04]

FIRST used to give out bronze medals to every team who competed. These were replaced with pins provided in the KoP several years ago, presumably as a cost cutting measure.

I miss those metals. When you got them you knew what it was,"a reminder of the hard work it took to get you there." That's what is meant by being a "winner" at a FIRST event.

Don't get me started on that "2nd place is the first loser" crap.

[IronicDeadBird]

Well not everyone is going to be walking home with some sort of prize at the end of an event. However its hard for me to look back and say I lost because of the people I met, the skills I learned, and the memories I made, all those things made it worth it for me at least.

[Type]

I disagree with this philosophy. Being second place at a regional of any kind is a phenomenal accomplishment, especially for a newer team. While it can be disappointing if that was your only hope of qualifying for CMP, it's still something you should be proud of. While it's important to always want to do better, calling 2nd place (!!) a loser is just unhealthy.

We are located in Michigan so it was districts. I may be wrong but districts are easier than regional event. I agree though with him, we didn't win. I think if we were a worse team he wouldn't say that but we had potential to win but we just weren't there at the time it mattered.

[Boltman]

With the growing concern over the effects of competition in youth sports programs this summer, many Canadian soccer associations eliminated the concept of keeping score.

[Andrew Schreiber]

I disagree with this philosophy. Being second place at a regional of any kind is a phenomenal accomplishment, especially for a newer team. While it can be disappointing if that was your only hope of qualifying for CMP, it's still something you should be proud of. While it's important to always want to do better, calling 2nd place (!!) a loser is just unhealthy.

If you're not first you're last.


But seriously, an 8 yr old put it into perspective a couple weeks ago "Wow, you were second? There were like 40 teams there"

I hate the everyone is a winner stuff. But I mean, we all do build some pretty cool[1] robots. So, while there are definitely winners, I'm not convinced there are losers.


[1] New Englanders - would this have been an appropriate use of the word "wicked"?

[IKE]

I agree, not everyone is a winner. Our Coach has told us that before, he says that 2nd place is the first loser. After we got 2nd place at our first event, I asked if we were going ton dinner to celebrate since we made it to finals with a nearly rookie team, yet he said no since we didn't win. I agree with not everybody are winners. If everybody was a "winner", it would take the motivation out of competing so toughly
This is why everyone should watch Karate Kid II. while the opening is powerful, the ending even moreso.

2nd place is first loser (http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=karate+kid+2nd+place+is+first+looser+vide o&&view=detail&mid=BDE841470ADA0295FF34BDE841470ADA0295FF34&rvsmid=DF68743FF88D1CFE64B3DF68743FF88D1CFE64B3&fsscr=0&FORM=VDFSRV)

This middle is really there just to support getting you from the beginning to the end.

[GreyingJay]

Of course he wasn't strict about it. He worded it more like if you won, I would have to take you out to dinner. Although 2nd is good, it's not as good as 1st. If you learn to settle for shy of the best, that's what you will always end up getting. You need to strive for first. Falling short of your goal is bad, but you can't really celebrate until you meet your goal. I hope what I'm saying makes sense.

It does, and I get what he's trying to say. "Never settle for second best." But I think there needs to be a balance. :)

[who716]

This has been discussed and I don't think there is yes or no answer to it depends on a lot of different things. For me personally I was brought up in a very competitive family as my brothers and I used to race professionally and that cost a lot of money so if we didn't win, it was a waste of a lot of money and resource. In the race no one recognized or sponsored the driver who came in second. that stuck with me in first aswell. I wasn't happy with any placement unless we won. I personally laughed at the pins given out and the finalist awards given out.
But it all depends on how and what people what from first. That going to decide whether everyone is a winner or just the winner.

But you can't forget that when you go out in the real world you will lose some compitition whether it be that dream job etc. and if you have spent your whole life believing everyone is a winner when you don't get that job it may be a harsh realization.

[NoahB4536]

With the growing concern over the effects of competition in youth sports programs this summer, many Canadian soccer associations eliminated the concept of keeping score.

See that's what I don't want to have happen, and although I know first will never completely take away scoring there is still the possibility of a less competitive competition. I love competition and during the build season knowing that my actions will have an impact on the team at our regional leads me to be more focused and therefore learn more.

[wilsonmw04]

This is why everyone should watch Karate Kid II. while the opening is powerful, the ending even moreso.

2nd place is first loser (http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=karate+kid+2nd+place+is+first+looser+vide o&&view=detail&mid=BDE841470ADA0295FF34BDE841470ADA0295FF34&rvsmid=DF68743FF88D1CFE64B3DF68743FF88D1CFE64B3&fsscr=0&FORM=VDFSRV)

This middle is really there just to support getting you from the beginning to the end.

+1
Best use of a Karate Kid movie ever.

[Jcarbon]

This thread is pretty relevant to me - this weekend my team was a finalist (one goal away from winning!) and Engineering Inspiration winner. Overall, I think we agreed that even though we were disappointed about not winning, we were very proud of making it to finals, especially considering the turnaround we made from being in dead last on Friday. Even though we had hoped to win a Chairman's Award, we were very proud of the EI, and appreciated the team that did win (go 3641!). So I guess my point is that whether you feel like you won depends on the team and your circumstances, and you can feel both proud of your accomplishments while also recognizing your shortcomings.

[ctt956]

This has been discussed and I don't think there is yes or no answer to it depends on a lot of different things. For me personally I was brought up in a very competitive family as my brothers and I used to race professionally and that cost a lot of money so if we didn't win, it was a waste of a lot of money and resource. In the race no one recognized or sponsored the driver who came in second. that stuck with me in first aswell. I wasn't happy with any placement unless we won. I personally laughed at the pins given out and the finalist awards given out.
But it all depends on how and what people what from first. That going to decide whether everyone is a winner or just the winner.

But you can't forget that when you go out in the real world you will lose some compitition whether it be that dream job etc. and if you have spent your whole life believing everyone is a winner when you don't get that job it may be a harsh realization.

This was my first year in robotics. I thought it was a "real" robotics competition. It isn't, and FIRST says that. You can watch this video (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0-m1QBOxsfg) from 1992 when FIRST was a real robotics competition. All the awards are great, but should be separate from the robotics competition. It should be an elimination tournament and based on individual merit. If your team works hard, has a great drive team, and builds a fantastic robot, your team should be rewarded for that work. The awards should not affect rank in the robotics portion at all. If it were a true competition, more people would come to watch it. And that is the best way to spread the STEM message. FIRST needs to encourage fan support.

[DonRotolo]

[1] New Englanders - would this have been an appropriate use of the word "wicked"?"Wicked cool" would be appropriate. Just "Wicked" without "cool" would not be.
If your team works hard, has a great drive team, and builds a fantastic robot, your team should be rewarded for that work.
Yes, just like in the real world. :rolleyes:

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

For our team and what I also believe individually, is that you only lose if you didn't give it your all. If we lose because the other alliance was just better than us or just wasn't our day then we can be proud of our accomplishments. If we lose because of a lack of trying or caring throughout the season though, that's when we are really losers. Loosing every now and again is okay too. It's what can kick start a team to becoming winners down the road.

[ctt956]

For our team and what I also believe individually, is that you only lose if you didn't give it your all. If we lose because the other alliance was just better than us or just wasn't our day then we can be proud of our accomplishments. If we lose because of a lack of trying or caring throughout the season though, that's when we are really losers. Loosing every now and again is okay too. It's what can kick start a team to becoming winners down the road.

If you are number one in the individual district rankings, and another team was not, but won Chairman's and knocks you out of the top four, what about your hard work on your robot? That's why the two entities should be separate. Both are important, but separate.

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

If you are number one in the individual district rankings, and another team was not, but won Chairman's and knocks you out of the top four, what about your hard work on your robot? That's why the two entities should be separate. Both are important, but separate.

My statement goes for everything, not just the robot or even frc for that matter. If you give it your all at anything then you are a winner in my eyes. Yeah you might not be rewarded all the time but if a person or team sticks to the mentality of giving it their all, the rewards will arrive eventually.

[pandamonium]

The quest for being competitive and winning are often confused and misunderstood. I want to challenge myself and my students to constantly strive for improvement. I don't actually care about Wins and Losses. We were ranked 3rd and were finalists at the Orange County Regional and for our team that was a HUGE win. We were so incredibly happy to have had our robot perform how it was designed and to be at a competitive level.

Much like in other sports a teams success on the field are directly linked to their work off of the field. Our team has made numerous changes and improved in several areas. To prepare myself for this year I read a leadership book and one of the things that stuck with me was the following story.http://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/wooden-shoes-and-socks-84177. This article explains it in depth how legendary coach John Wooden started every basketball season by meeting with his team and teaching his players how to properly put on socks and shoes. He doesn't talk about winning championships he focusses on the small things that he can actually control. It is not as binary as winning and losing as there is an infinite level of success.

To conclude, "The robot is a vehicle". Ultimately the robot is a vehicle, not just for learning engineering but for learning life skills. Through First I have learned; how to lose, how to win, how to become a better person, how to lead, and so much more. I can't really remember the matches my teams have won or lost. I can't even remember the specifics of the regionals my team has won and lost. What I do remember is all of the connections this program has made for me and all of the opportunities that I have had because of it.

[ctt956]

The quest for being competitive and winning are often confused and misunderstood. I want to challenge myself and my students to constantly strive for improvement. I don't actually care about Wins and Losses. We were ranked 3rd and were finalists at the Orange County Regional and for our team that was a HUGE win. We were so incredibly happy to have had our robot perform how it was designed and to be at a competitive level.

Much like in other sports a teams success on the field are directly linked to their work off of the field. Our team has made numerous changes and improved in several areas. To prepare myself for this year I read a leadership book and one of the things that stuck with me was the following story.http://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/wooden-shoes-and-socks-84177. This article explains it in depth how legendary coach John Wooden started every basketball season by meeting with his team and teaching his players how to properly put on socks and shoes. He doesn't talk about winning championships he focusses on the small things that he can actually control. It is not as binary as winning and losing as there is an infinite level of success.

To conclude, "The robot is a vehicle". Ultimately the robot is a vehicle, not just for learning engineering but for learning life skills. Through First I have learned; how to lose, how to win, how to become a better person, how to lead, and so much more. I can't really remember the matches my teams have won or lost. I can't even remember the specifics of the regionals my team has won and lost. What I do remember is all of the connections this program has made for me and all of the opportunities that I have had because of it.

John Wooden was a fantastic basketball coach. Here's how many wins he had in his career, taken from this article (http://www.uclabruins.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=208274589): In 27 years as Bruin coach, his teams registered 620 wins, and only 147 losses while earning far more national honors than any other university.

Under Wooden, UCLA won an unprecedented 10 NCAA championships, including seven consecutive (1966-73). Included in the string is one of the most amazing win streaks in all of sports, 38 straight NCAA tournament victories.

[Lil' Lavery]

If you are number one in the individual district rankings, and another team was not, but won Chairman's and knocks you out of the top four, what about your hard work on your robot? That's why the two entities should be separate. Both are important, but separate.

Winning a competition with your robot is not important.
Being a Chairman's team is.

[grstex]

This thread really struck a raw nerve with me. I shadowed a team this weekend whose town has a median household income below the national poverty line, and $30,000 below the median household income of the state. They drove a broken bus 8 hours through the desert to get to the competition. My brother used to mentor a team whose students barely showed up because they were working 2 jobs after school to support their family. These teams didn't make the playoffs. Were they "losers?" Did they "not try hard enough?" Were they not "motivated?" Check your privilege. There are some people in this world for whom just showing up is a major victory.

I'm sorry if I'm being harsh, but for the past 20+ years Dean and Woodie have been giving speeches at FIRST events telling kids that just participating makes them winners. I don't think they've "devalued" the program or made it less competitive in that time (as if that's what FIRST is really all about), seeing as it's grown from a few dozen teams to a few thousand.

[PayneTrain]

1 alliance wins a given tournament but all teams teams have a chance to define, chart, and create their own success.

We would have loved to win all of our events this year but we have succeeded in growing as an organization by developing some really badass kids who want to sign the same blood oath to FIRST that I have.

Telling teams that win events that their accomplishments are not important is pretty disappointing. If that team defined success as scoring the blue banner that you get at the end of the bracket, and they achieved that goal, they should celebrate.

[pandamonium]

The quest for being competitive and winning are often confused and misunderstood. I want to challenge myself and my students to constantly strive for improvement. I don't actually care about Wins and Losses. We were ranked 3rd and were finalists at the Orange County Regional and for our team that was a HUGE win. We were so incredibly happy to have had our robot perform how it was designed and to be at a competitive level.

Much like in other sports a teams success on the field are directly linked to their work off of the field. Our team has made numerous changes and improved in several areas. To prepare myself for this year I read a leadership book and one of the things that stuck with me was the following story.http://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/wooden-shoes-and-socks-84177. This article explains it in depth how legendary coach John Wooden started every basketball season by meeting with his team and teaching his players how to properly put on socks and shoes. He doesn't talk about winning championships he focusses on the small things that he can actually control. It is not as binary as winning and losing as there is an infinite level of success.

To conclude, "The robot is a vehicle". Ultimately the robot is a vehicle, not just for learning engineering but for learning life skills. Through First I have learned; how to lose, how to win, how to become a better person, how to lead, and so much more. I can't really remember the matches my teams have won or lost. I can't even remember the specifics of the regionals my team has won and lost. What I do remember is all of the connections this program has made for me and all of the opportunities that I have had because of it.

[ctt956]

This thread really struck a raw nerve with me. I shadowed a team this weekend whose town has a median household income below the national poverty line, and $30,000 below the median household income of the state. They drove a broken bus 8 hours through the desert to get to the competition. My brother used to mentor a team whose students barely showed up because they were working 2 jobs after school to support their family. These teams didn't make the playoffs. Were they "losers?" Did they "not try hard enough?" Were they not "motivated?" Check your privilege. There are some people in this world for whom just showing up is a major victory.

I'm sorry if I'm being harsh, but for the past 20+ years Dean and Woodie have been giving speeches at FIRST events telling kids that just participating makes them winners. I don't think they've "devalued" the program or made it less competitive in that time (as if that's what FIRST is really all about), seeing as it's grown from a few dozen teams to a few thousand.

I'm sure teams like that do not have as many sponsors. Is there a scholarship program for them so that they would be able to do more than just show up?

[dodar]

Winning a competition with your robot is not important.
Being a Chairman's team is.

Then why do you have the kids from your team build robots?

If it isn't important, just have them focus on Chairman's during build season.

[CalTran]

If it isn't important, just have them focus on Chairman's during build season.

Building a robot is a 6 week job.
Building a winning Chairman's Team is a multi-year long endeavor.

[dodar]

Building a robot is a 6 week job.
Building a winning Chairman's Team is a multi-year long endeavor.

I dont get the point of your post; and if you think building a robot is January-Mid/End February, then you arent preparing your kids.

[GreyingJay]

If your team works hard, has a great drive team, and builds a fantastic robot, your team should be rewarded for that work.

I heard someone say recently that FRC is not a robotics competition, it is "life experience" that involves robots.

It's an engineering competition. And a very realistic one, because it takes into account not just the technological merit of your solution, but other factors such as funding, marketing, branding, politics between competitors, and other factors beyond your control such as pure luck. Which is how the real world works. You might not win it big. But that shouldn't prevent you from trying anyway.

[72LML]

Threads like this is exactly why I tend to stay off of Chief Delphi. I find it ironic that this post was started by someone who is on a team that is going to World's based on the fact that two of the teams on the winning alliance technically won too many awards therefore creating some Wildcards and allowing other teams to go to Worlds. Maybe you felt like your team won too many awards this past weekend?

This is my second year as a mentor and one of the things that I've learned in the past two years is that every team comes from different backgrounds and has access to different resources. You work with what you have available and do the best that you can. While the competition side of FIRST is fun, to me it much larger than that. When you can watch your kids get excited over building and competiting with something that they designed and built with the resources they have and have it then lead to a passion for engineering, science, and creativity that's what really matters. I don't know about you but that's what I saw a lot of this past weekend at the 10K Lakes Regional. Maybe that's what makes everybody a "winner"? If it is, I'll take that any day over a blue banner.

On a side note, while we didn't win any awards at two regionals we attended this year I am incredibly proud of my kids and wouldn't trade them for anyone else. Even if we weren't on the "winning" team.

[ctt956]

The awards should be one entity, and the robots should be another entity. Both important, but they should not overlap.

[GeeTwo]

The key question is: "What is a winner?"

If you define being a winner in terms of walking away from a competition with a medal or a trophy, then I thoroughly agree that not every team is, nor should be, a winner. The C in FRC is Competition, and the competition contributes to both inspiration and recognition.

On the other hand, when I compare the members of an FRC team who dedicated dozens or even hundreds of hours learning, building, iterating, writing, practicing, and generally being inspired to their classmates who stayed at home playing video games, watching the tube, or smoking dope, then YES! Every one who really participates in FRC is a winner. For many, this is at least as inspirational a message as the medal or trophy. It is a point we emphasize at our awards ceremony -- everyone who went the distance is a winner, though a minority of the team members received a specific award.

[Lil' Lavery]

Then why do you have the kids from your team build robots?

If it isn't important, just have them focus on Chairman's during build season.

Building and competing are tremendously important. Nobody is pretending that this isn't about the robots. The experiences gained by designing, fabricating, modelling, iterating, programming, and testing a robot are incredible. Getting to function in a high paced, high energy environment like the competition is a crucial experience. All of that is important. The build season is important. The competition is important. However, collecting a banner is not.

Five years down the line, nobody is going to care about what trophies you won as a high school student. However, the experiences you gained and the connections you made are going to be tremendously important throughout your life. Learning the value of STEM and empowering those around you to celebrate STEM is important. Being able to communicate those values is important. And Chairman's caliber teams are better at those aspects than anyone else. Chairman's caliber programs pump out tremendous alumni and create environments in their community that value STEM.

Case in point, I have a FIRST Vex Challenge world championship on my resume. When going through job interviews during and after college, that was discussed for maybe 30 seconds total. Explaining FIRST and FRC in general was discussed far more, and there was far more interest in discussion in the types of mechanisms created and the impact of the program than about the fact I had won a trophy in FVC.

[The other Gabe]

Then why do you have the kids from your team build robots?

If it isn't important, just have them focus on Chairman's during build season.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

[dodar]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

I guess you literally didnt read what he said.

[rich2202]

If FIRST was a basketball tournament, then winning is everything. The best players will be on the teams that perform the best. the best players are the ones that have a chance a being a professional basketball player. But FIRST is not about who wins the competition.

FIRST stands for "For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology".

"FIRST is More Than Robots. FIRST participation is proven to encourage students to pursue education and careers in STEM-related fields, inspire them to become leaders and innovators, and enhance their 21 st century work-life skills" - FIRST's website

The competition is a way to channel the efforts of the students. If we can help kids by inspiring them to become innovators and leaders - those are the true "winners". Our team is fortunate that in the past 4 years, 2 of our team members have gone to MIT, and countless others have gone onto other colleges and universities. Did FIRST make a difference? Who knows? FIRST certainly did not hurt.

By being at the competition, the students have learned something. When they interview for college, the mere fact that they were on a FIRST team and what they got out of it is what is important, not how the team did. If FIRST helps kids into their Reach college/university, that gives the kid a tangible benefit of the years of participation.

In that respect, every participant is a "winner" for being inspired by participating in the competition. Some kids will get more from that inspiration than others. Hopefully every kid is inspired to do more than they would have otherwise. For the less able kids, if that means they become a Manager at McDonalds vs a hamburger flipper, that is still "winning" for that kid. And for the kid, on a team that didn't make it to Worlds, that makes it into a top tier engineering school - they "won" more than a kid on an Einstein winning team that did not.

Broaden your view of what FIRST is, and you can see that mostly everyone is a winner for participating.

[ctt956]

I think everybody is missing the point. Everything on the robotics team is important. But there is nothing wrong with having a real winner in the robotics competition. When Apple puts out a new product, they want it to be the best, and they want to win. That is the real world. A real robotics competition with a true winner based on performance of the robot only would bring more people to STEM because the competitions would be much more exciting. You can still have all the other stuff. Everybody gains from being on a team.

[Ninjastahr]

[2 cents]

In FRC, there are winners, but there certainly aren't losers.

[/2 cents]

[Gregor]

With the growing concern over the effects of competition in youth sports programs this summer, many Canadian soccer associations eliminated the concept of keeping score.

Under 12 years of age...

[Lil' Lavery]

I guess you literally didnt read what he said.

I said winning wasn't important. I didn't say the robot wasn't important. Your counter (the strawman) was that I should have my team not build a robot.

[Michael Corsetto]

Winning a competition with your robot is not important.
Being a Chairman's team is.

Winning has been important to us.

If we didn't win Curie 2013, we would not be where we are now.

50 Students on 1678
24 FLL Teams started in the past 2 years
5 Robotics Engineering classes started at the high school this past year

Winning has been, and continues to be, one of the driving/motivating forces behind our team's growth, both on and off the field.

Being a world-class, competitive team that wins events is one of the three pillars of 1678.

-Mike

[Lil' Lavery]

Winning has been important to us.

If we didn't win Curie 2013, we would not be where we are now.

50 Students on 1678
24 FLL Teams started in the past 2 years
5 Robotics Engineering classes started at the high school this past year

Winning has been, and continues to be, one of the driving/motivating forces behind our team's growth, both on and off the field.

Being a world-class, competitive team that wins events is one of the three pillars of 1678.

-Mike

You're using your winning as a means to become a Chairman's caliber program. You've made winning important in your team culture, and your team culture is one worthy of celebration as its clearly impactful. You've made winning productive.

[techhelpbb]

Takes off my FRC11 hat...

I wonder sometimes:

What it must be like for people motivated by winning: when they realize that out in the real world there are few clear winners if you really look.

Eventually many will join teams magnitudes larger than anything that exists in FIRST.

I mean we win because we finally get the schools to acknowledge the value of the work, but so many only value it because they want to win, not because they want to make their kids win in life. The goal of schools, IMHO is to make the students successful that's the only metric that matters to me. I spent my time in school watching the goal of school being about: tuition, attendance, grades, style and reputation...but in the end too many of the students were lost once they left that nest.

I often feel like I am bottle size cork in a drainage pipe the size of a lake.

[Michael Corsetto]

You're using your winning as a means to become a Chairman's caliber program. You've made winning important in your team culture, and your team culture is one worthy of celebration as its clearly impactful. You've made winning productive.

I totally agree with this. Winning has been a means to an end, not simply the end.

Though winning is not the end, that doesn't mean it's not important. (sorry for the triple negative!)

-Mike

[NoahB4536]

[2 cents]

In FRC, there are winners, but there certainly aren't losers.

[/2 cents]

I think your absolutely right. This is a program where no matter where your ranked at the end of the competition you will have gained a lot from the experience. Also you can't take the word winner to just mean that you showed up and learned, winning means that you went above and beyond the standard of and FRC team, whether that is in competing well or making an amazing chairman's submission, and you deserve to be recognized by all for your achievements. Obviously being in the competition and working hard deserves recognition from your coaches and mentors but that doesn't mean that you should get a standing ovation like the victors of the competition get. Please don't take this as me saying that any of the students in FRC don't matter, I myself am "just another teammate" and being in the FRC is the best part of my life and would be regardless of well my team did but I wouldn't want to get a big award for something everyone did.

[Ben Martin]

I would argue that when speakers say everyone's a winner, it's encouragement that everyone is on the right track to being "successful" -- based on the content of the speeches at FIRST events, I would argue that that would be to do something good or beneficial for the world.

One of the reasons we put so much focus on winning is to teach the same life skills that sports teach -- you're fighting tooth and nail while working hand-in-hand with others to achieve a goal, whatever it might be. Like everything else, being able to do that is a skill, and learning how to assess your situation and make the strategic choices and actions to put yourself in an optimum position to achieve whatever your goal is.

At the end of the day, if you did everything you possibly could to achieve your goal, you can feel self-assured and know that you did your best. Not everyone is motivated by trying to be the best at something--many people are motivated to produce something new or interesting. From my standpoint, I hope the students graduate motivated to do something, having experienced the type of effort required to accomplish a difficult challenge.

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

In my opinion, winners are everyone that gets to run down to the field and high five the judges for one reason or another. Teams that qualify for additional events via merit (regional or world championships) are also winners.

I think I count a lot more winners than some other people do.

[GeeTwo]

Perhaps just repeating my earlier post in pithier form, but there are two different definitions of "win" at work here:


To be recognized as the best competitor at something at a given place and time.
To conclude an endeavor in better condition than you started.


Without a doubt, win[1] is much more inspirational than win[2], and unless FIRST decides to play Red Rover, there are a limited number of winners at each event.

That said, win[2] is why FIRST exists. If being world class were essential to the FIRST model, we would quickly be down to a handful of teams, inspiring a few hundred STEM heroes. FIRST exists to inspire tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, and eventually millions of STEM leaders.

Finally, to be clear - I am NOT intending to contradict Mike Corsetto, nor to depreciate being world class. The Citrus Circuits and other world-class competitive teams inspire members of other teams (including 3946) in addition to their own.

Occasionally world-class team inspiration crosses into disturbing territory; at this point I'll bow out on the principle of "what's said in the workshop stays in the workshop," unless it's suitable for the Quotes thread. Polyandry was just meant as a figure of speech, right?

[Truelight]

This last weekend my team competed at the Minnesota 10K lakes regional. As per usual there were lots of speakers but it seemed to me like this year they talked a lot about how everyone was a winner by just showing up to the event. Now I am not bashing the speakers, I just wanted to address an issue that has come up in other sports, which is that if competitors at an event are told that everyone is a winner it can take away some of the joy of winning and interfere with the competition aspect of coopertition. Calling everyone a winner can also make it tough for people to deal with losing, although that is mostly with younger kids. I was in the pits for some of the regional so I did not get to watch every speaker and therefore cannot attest to the extent to which this was occurring but I do believe that it is important for the FRC to not give into the concept of everyone being a winner. There are three winning teams in a regional and although that does not necessarily mean that the other teams are "losers" it does mean that the other teams can be motivated to learn and improve in their pursuit of excellence.

I agree that there are three "Winners" at an event now respectfully, lots of teams put a lot of work into awards such as Chairman's or Engineering Inspiration. Teams like 2169, 1816, 4607, 2052, 2502, 2526, 3184, and many others here in Minnesota that have put lots of time and effort into building and reinforcing the goals of FIRST, and have been awarded with awards like Chairman's and Engineering Inspiration, in my opinion are held at the same level at the "Winners" of the actual event.

[blueyoshi256]

I'm not going to reply directly to anything already said. Just want to say this.

I was very fortunate to be able to watch a team win at the 10,000 lakes regional. It wasn't 2052 or 525 (although they also won). It didn't even happen at an awards ceremony. It was team 2855, students whom I have had the pleasure of knowing for a few years. On Friday, I realized that they were going to be an alliance captain, so I talked to them, and pointed them in the direction of some scouting resources.
Sure enough, they walk out as the 8th seed captain right towards the end, only to be immediately picked by the 7th seed. Together, they picked an effective 3rd partner and a strong alliance.
Unfortunately, the 2nd seed was no slouch. I watched them lose their first quarterfinal from the pits. At that point, a few of them thought that they were just done. They hadn't been involved in Elims enough to remember that they got a 2nd match. And they had certainly never had a strong shot at anything more than Quarterfinals.
However, they had done their research well. Match 2 was a different story, and they pulled out a win. Right then, I got to watch them have the realization that it was possible for them to win. Maybe not this year, but next year for sure. Even though they lost their next match (by 8 points, really close), they were all eager for the future.
I am very glad that they managed to pick up the Entrepreneurship award, and a trip to state that day, but the truth is, they still won, regardless of whether or not they received a prize for it. It is possible to "lose" a robotics competition, but "winning" does not always come with a prize. Defining it so narrowly risks missing out on all of the victories that take place in FRC.

[steverk]

I mentor a robotics team for a league that is not related to FIRST.

I've always been bothered by the "everyone's a winner" philosophy. Competitions (robotics, and sports for that matter) should be a life lesson. In life some times you don't win. Some times you fail because you weren't good enough, made too many mistakes, or just had bad luck. "Everyone's a winner" misses this important lesson.

On the other hand, if you define winning too narrowly, then some teams, and people, would always be losers. I don't believe that's reality either. Everyone can be a winner, and probably will be at some point.

For my team, we focus on creating a positive experience for the students. Bringing home a trophy helps, but if the kids graduate inspired for the future and are determined to do well, then we have "won" regardless of the scorecard.

[NoahB4536]

It is possible to "lose" a robotics competition, but "winning" does not always come with a prize.

This makes an important distinction between prizes and winning. Getting a prize obviously means you have won but it means that that person or team has done something special, something that no one else has done or done as well, and so they get an award. However, giving everyone an award can be detrimental to both teams because the team who should have won an award feels cheated and the team who wasn't yet at the level of an award can't learn from that experience.

[GreyingJay]

It is possible to "lose" a robotics competition, but "winning" does not always come with a prize.

Or, how about this:

Not everyone will go home a "winner". Not everyone will get a prize. But nobody loses at a FIRST robotics competition.

[jdesmond]

Winning a competition with your robot is not important.
Being a Chairman's team is.

I feel pretty inspired when I win.

[CalTran]

I feel pretty inspired when I win.

I feel most inspired when I win.

No one is saying that winning isn't inspirational. But winning isn't the only way that people can be inspired. It certainly helps expedite the process, but it's certainly not the only way to graduate the program and feel you got something out of it other than a superficial "You participated, good for you!" pat on the back.