Making STEM a better place for women [Archive]

JBotAlan

11-04-2016, 18:53

JohnFogarty

11-04-2016, 19:03

I have female students on teams that I have worked with that had some just plain creepy or akward situations happen to them. I've dealt with it by letting the mentors of the student know what went on and they dealt with it internally. Most of the girls who were on the receiving end through conversation told me this sort of thing isn't rare.

Another thing I'm beginning to learn is that sexism is a problem among male students in FRC.

I agree that this can be a problem. How to deal with it if it happens with a student on your team is something I don't have the best answer for.

Mechvet

11-04-2016, 19:08

Being a mentor for a FIRST team goes far beyond simply being there as a technical resource.

To expand on what being a mentor means to me, I'm going to start with some background. Everything I know about leadership, mentoring, and instruction came from my time in the United States Marine Corps. Not really known from the outside, but the Corps has a rather intensive Mentorship program where senior Marines take juniors under their wing, and provide both professional and personal mentoring.

The programs seeks, specifically, to provide tools to Marine leaders in order to help them improve their ability to interact on a personal and professional level with their Marines, to help set goals that improve the performance of both the individual Marine and the team... Now, we're not mentoring Marines here, we're mentoring High School students. A good amount of "toning down" is required, as well as a less... intensive personal involvement. However, I personally believe being a mentor involves knowing when to counsel a student about more than just the good. Sometimes the best thing for a student is to not be instructed, but corrected.

If I'm going to mentor someone, I'm going to be involved in their life as a positive force. Note the terminology here: a positive FORCE. There's acceptable professional behavior, and there's unacceptable. Being confident and assertive enough to pull a student to the side and expand on the negative effects of their actions isn't an easy thing, but the effects are amazing to watch.

To refer to your specific case, pulling the (male) student aside, and having a talk about how his actions are perceived can do him a lot of good, as well as remove the negative situation for the female student. The exact phrasing here is something you've got to CAREFULLY consider. Crushing the student's expression of affection isn't the goal. The goal is to explain that another person isn't perceiving their affection the same way, as well as to put into context the professional manner in which the student SHOULD act.

In summary, sometimes telling someone they're not acting right is what needs to be done. It's not a natural feeling, but it gets easier over time.

Akash Rastogi

11-04-2016, 19:09

Seen guys creep out their female teammates both as a student and observed it as a mentor. I think the hardest part of addressing the issue is this: should we be proactive and ask female students if another student is making them uncomfortable, or, should we be reactive and wait for students to come to us with these issues.

What I personally have seen is that some girls are sometimes hesitant to talk to someone about this, especially if all mentors are male. I have always tried to be as open as possible to my students about these types of situations, and so far it has worked well for the students i have helped, but I think the hesitation will still be there if all mentors aren't working towards making their students feel comfortable in all situations.

In college, the women in engineering classes are notoriously hounded because there are fewer of them already, so it probably makes the entire cycle worse.

I don't think a solution exists unless you proactively discuss this type of stuff with your entire team and their parents before each season.

I hope there aren't many examples of such behavior. :(

Roboshant

11-04-2016, 19:09

This could a perfect opportunity to teach Male students proper gracious professional etiquette and the overall idea of it, and how it extends out to greater life outside of FIRST.

carpedav000

11-04-2016, 19:22

Akash Rastogi

11-04-2016, 19:28

Besides that, maybe try calling out the offenders? From experience (not with this issue) getting called out is so embarrassing that you will not do whatever it was again out of fear of getting called out again.

While it is a short term deterrent, this doesn't teach the student right from wrong.

popnbrown

11-04-2016, 20:03

While it is a short term deterrent, this doesn't teach the student right from wrong.

Completely agree, it would be a better approach to:

To refer to your specific case, pulling the (male) student aside, and having a talk about how his actions are perceived can do him a lot of good,

Frankly, I think it's a discussion to have with the offending student to make him (or her) more aware of his/her actions.

Some of the things I do on my team:

Encourage a student who wants to do something, no matter what it is (if it's reasonable)
Ensure equitable opportunity (technical students have to do non-technical things, and non-technical students do technical things - sometimes I have to push this)
No activities that leave out any students (team wanted to do a lock-in in school but we can't do co-ed lock-in)
Be aware of students activities beyond the team (I'm generally aware of schoolwork/grades, other extracurriculars)
Like Akash mentioned: a genuine open door policy
Listen to any student that wants to talk, and sometimes it's just listening
And personally, I remind myself "You're a role model everything you do students will remember".

I think my views are really well summed up by Mechvet:
If I'm going to mentor someone, I'm going to be involved in their life as a positive force.

hstanger

11-04-2016, 21:33

As a female mentor and engineering student, I can affirm these are definitely issues for women in STEM, along with many other issues.

The suggestions I see on here are great. But there is one recommendation I would add: teams need to seek out female mentors! There are interactions that female mentors are more likely to pick up on and they provide some insight into these issues. Female mentors also set role models for their female students and give male students another opportunity to interact with females in an engineering role before they are in college or the workplace.

And I would say also to keep conversations focused robotics as much as possible to prevent both parties from focusing on appearance (whatever they choose to talk about at lunch is different, but not while the team works). And make sure female members are just as willing to get in there and work on the robot, they can pick up a drill for themselves and don't need someone to load the drill bit in for them, etc.

popnbrown

11-04-2016, 21:53

teams need to seek out female mentors!

The few female mentors I've worked side-by-side with have been some of the best, but they are very hard to find. Not just technical mentors, but mentors in general. I also have a general problem recruiting mentors, but I'd be interested in hearing any advice for recruiting female mentors.

And I would say also to keep conversations focused robotics as much as possible to prevent both parties from focusing on appearance

I actually slightly disagree with this. I think moving the topic festers the behavior or issue, especially because if they don't act that way in front of you

(whatever they choose to talk about at lunch is different

I equate this sometimes to tool safety. I'd rather the student do something unsafe in front of me, so I can help them understand the need for safety, then do it when I'm turned away. I think this applies to behavior as well.

MysterE

12-04-2016, 08:34

A few additions to make here -

While some of these problems take place in regards to girls while they are within their own team, I find that there are many more issues to deal with at competitions. This is especially true of student to student interaction among teams.

First, I have had to instruct my students in a couple of important notes:

#1: Never give a student's cell-phone number or contact information to another student. While I cannot keep students from exchanging information with each other, I have found some of my male students giving information about one of my female students when requested from an interested person on another team.

#2: Carefully monitor hotel interactions. While I would like to believe that the standards of every team is the same, there are some that have no problem with students from either gender congregating in hotel rooms and the like. While I do not mind hallway interactions, I am always concerned when a female OR male student finds their way into the room of another team.

#3: This is perhaps the most sensitive but most important: Just because someone is a mentor/parent/adult, it does not mean they are safe. Recently, I had a student approach me expressing concern over an adult who seemed to be tracking them in the stands. The adult would consistently stare and it made the student uncomfortable. I did not hear about it until after a situation where the adult exited the stands right behind the student and followed them down the stands closely. When the student turned, he attempted to start a conversation.

We have to remember that beyond simple student to student interactions in our teams we also need to teach our students to understand that the perception of safety is not always true. It's unfortunate but because we host events that are open to the public there will always be situations that can arise. What I generally tell my students is the following:

A) Always stick together - This is not always possible but as much as they can I like students to have at least one person with them at all times. This is especially true if they are going to be outside of the arena and sometimes even if they are going to the restroom.

B) Trust your instincts - If someone is making you uncomfortable, distance yourself from them and tell one of your mentors. While a mentor may not be able to directly deal with someone who is making a student feel uncomfortable, they can be made more aware of the situation and help mitigate in whatever way possible.

C) Always Inform - If something happens, whether it be an altercation with a student or an adult, never be afraid to tell a mentor. We always have both male and female mentors or parent volunteers available at each competition. If someone does something that you feel is inappropriate, you should never feel embarrassed to let us know.

D) And lastly - Embarrassment can save your life. This is perhaps the most difficult yet the most effective form of safety. If someone will not leave you alone, get loud and do whatever you can to get out of the situation. It doesn't matter if you are wrong or right because trusting your instincts is always better than not. What I told the person who was dealing with the adult in the stands was that next time they needed to step aside and allow the person to go ahead of them. If that did not work they needed to look at the person and in a firm and loud voice they needed to say "You are making me uncomfortable, please leave me alone."

Generally this will deter anyone who is being overly creepy - especially as many people don't even recognize they are doing it. If not, or if they try to hold a conversation, repeat the phrase but louder. At some point, someone else will notice and should help. As a last result - you yell. Yes, it may be embarrassing to you, but it will also call attention to what is going on.

The truth is that making STEM a better place for women goes far beyond what happens in the interactions between our own students. As mentors, we have to take a proactive stance to guard and protect both our young men and women at home and at competitions. Of course there are a myriad of other things that we need to tackle here to truly help women feel supported in their role as a STEM leader but safety is first and foremost and security is often taught not just assumed.

hardcopi

12-04-2016, 09:18

As a mentor and father to a teen daughter (and the mentor who inevitably ends up with 5 or 6 females riding with me to events) I have a slightly different perspective. The interaction between the girls and the guys on our team really doesn't seem to have anything to do with STEM persay.

Part of it is certainly developing a thick skin, but that goes both ways. The girls I have seen who do well in Stem (albeit my experience is limited in this area because I am a solo programmer by trade) all do so because they don't see themselves as needing different or preferential treatment. They seem themselves as programmers, engineers, etc. Their gender doesn't really play a role. If a guy gives them a hard time then they give them a hard time back. If the guy is a creep then you tell them off or you report them.

When we have a male (or female for that matter) student behaving inappropriately we just tell them to calm down, relax, and if need be the mentors will pull them aside and have a talk with them.

My daughter I am sure would have a better handle on this, she started her freshman year knowing nothing about robotics and now 4 years later she was a Deans List Finalist, President of the Team, Drive Captain, President of the Student Council and Leader of the Programmers on our team. (I could go on but needless to say I am proud of her).

I am also pretty proud of all the girls on our team, they aren't bullied by the guys on the team and in roles of leadership throughout. Not a single one was given their role without deserving it.

JNelson

12-04-2016, 09:20

1. Having a team-member handbook with clear guidelines on treating mentors, students and event staff members with respect and appreciation will help tremendously.

2. If someone is spotted violating team rules, meet with with them privately and point out their behavior. Also, discuss the negative impact on the team, on the members and the on person themselves; and be ready with consequences if it happens again.

3. Keep a journal so that offenses and consequences are recorded. If a person has a second offense, assign some sort of clean-up task and write a note to their parents (or in their file if a mentor). A third offense would warrant some kind of time away from the team or missing a tournament.

4. Handle all this with love and professionalism. It's a growth opportunity for young adults, and do NOT ignore the bad behavior.

4. Be aware of the tendency to steer young ladies to the non-engineering roles like team spirit, communication, etc. Encourage females (or any team member) to try out roles that will help them develop skills they may not realize they have!

Random tips:
-Have fun, reward good behavior, privately address bad behavior.
-Develop a team Vision
-Have a meeting with Mentors BEFORE the season starts to discuss your team goals. What are the attributes of an amazing team, and how can we get that here? Have that same discussion with students.

Katie_UPS

12-04-2016, 09:59

The few female mentors I've worked side-by-side with have been some of the best, but they are very hard to find. Not just technical mentors, but mentors in general. I also have a general problem recruiting mentors, but I'd be interested in hearing any advice for recruiting female mentors.

One quick tip for recruiting female mentors: Don't recruit female mentors, recruit mentors.

"We want you to mentor our team because we want a lady mentor/positive female role model" is way less inviting than "We want you to mentor our team because of your X, Y, and Z skills." The former makes me valuable only because of my gender (something I have no control over) and the latter makes me valuable for the set of skills and knowledge I have worked to acquire and improve upon.

I'm not saying you can't ask women to be mentors or recruit them more heavily. I am saying that you should find value in your female mentors beyond their gender.

Jon Stratis

12-04-2016, 10:26

The problem with recruiting female engineers really comes down to numbers. According to some statistics (https://ngcproject.org/statistics) I've heard before, only 13% of engineers are female, and the percentage can be worse when you look at specific engineering fields.

My experience at companies I've worked for shows that very few people want to dedicate the time and energy to mentor a team. Maybe 1/1000 people. Now, that's fine when you look at trying to recruit someone (non gender specific) to mentor your team, as there are a lot of comeanies out there, and hundreds of thousands of engineers you could draw from. When you start applying filters to your recruitment criteria (must be female, or must be a specific type of engineer, etc), your pool of potential recruits rapidly decreases, and your left looking for a specific needle in a haystack full of needles that aren't quite right.

My team doesn't actively recruit female mentors, despite being an all girls team from an all girls school. We recruit mentors, and those mentors ensure there's a gender-neutral attitude in everything we do. the female mentors we have fall into three categories: parents, teachers, and returning former students. It just happened to work out that way.

For those female student here, I want to ask - which is more important to you, having a female mentor to look up to, or having your mentor (regardless of gender) show confidence, support, and respect for you? At the end of the day, that's all us poor males can really do to help you grow!

MechEng83

12-04-2016, 10:39

As far as internal team dynamics, we do a few things to address these types of problems.

1st, we have a team handbook that outlines specific behaviors that are wholly not acceptable. This is emphasized throughout the year.

2nd, we have occasional girl and boy meetings, specifically to discuss issues and situations that have happened and may arise and how to handle them. My students know both what is expected of them and what to do if they are put into an uncomfortable situation both within and outside the team. For the boy meeting, I highlight that it's not just their own behavior they should be concerned about, but others too. Watch out for your teammates and help them out in whatever situations they are in. I have never been part of the girl meeting (no guys allowed), so I only know what I've been told about what gets discussed, but it's important to know that your team has your back.

3rd, I insert myself into situations at events where I notice guys creeping on my female students. I introduce myself in a friendly, yet forceful, manner as their mentor and ask if there's anything I can do to help them out. The creeps tend to get very uncomfortable and leave quickly when they've been caught. Hyper-vigilance is unfortunately necessary at times.

techhelpbb

12-04-2016, 11:00

To me this is a social interaction.
There are plenty of ways to creep people out in a social setting regardless of gender.

If it gets to the point that someone feels uncomfortable they should feel safe enough to come forward and to report the issue. The person that is causing the issue should feel safe enough to tell their side and have a learning moment.

People do awkward things and sometimes they do so mindlessly.
We can overreact or we can manage that.
If these situations fail to be managed - then you make sure they can't escalate.

Sperkowsky

12-04-2016, 11:14

Libby K

12-04-2016, 11:20

PayneTrain

12-04-2016, 12:53

Just Doug

12-04-2016, 12:58

The thing that bugs me the most is when I notice sexism on the part of the student members of our team. We correct it as quickly as it happens, but we don't have a mentor there for every exchange that every student has. We try to handle it in the same way that the team handles bullying, because really it is the same thing. Outside of that maintaining an open line of communications helps with many issues.

Our student president started a high school club that interfaces with SWE a few years back. It has done wonders for recruiting girls onto the team. I don't want to make too many conjectures about why it works, but I am under the impression that it provides an environment where the students are more comfortable talking about problems that happen in the STEM arena.

-Doug

ATannahill

12-04-2016, 14:09

<snip>

A) Always stick together - This is not always possible but as much as they can I like students to have at least one person with them at all times. This is especially true if they are going to be outside of the arena and sometimes even if they are going to the restroom.

B) Trust your instincts - If someone is making you uncomfortable, distance yourself from them and tell one of your mentors. While a mentor may not be able to directly deal with someone who is making a student feel uncomfortable, they can be made more aware of the situation and help mitigate in whatever way possible.

C) Always Inform - If something happens, whether it be an altercation with a student or an adult, never be afraid to tell a mentor. We always have both male and female mentors or parent volunteers available at each competition. If someone does something that you feel is inappropriate, you should never feel embarrassed to let us know.

D) And lastly - Embarrassment can save your life. This is perhaps the most difficult yet the most effective form of safety. If someone will not leave you alone, get loud and do whatever you can to get out of the situation. It doesn't matter if you are wrong or right because trusting your instincts is always better than not. What I told the person who was dealing with the adult in the stands was that next time they needed to step aside and allow the person to go ahead of them. If that did not work they needed to look at the person and in a firm and loud voice they needed to say "You are making me uncomfortable, please leave me alone."

Generally this will deter anyone who is being overly creepy - especially as many people don't even recognize they are doing it. If not, or if they try to hold a conversation, repeat the phrase but louder. At some point, someone else will notice and should help. As a last result - you yell. Yes, it may be embarrassing to you, but it will also call attention to what is going on.

Public embarrassment can be very detrimental to teenagers, especially when it is in regards to socially awkward students interacting with the other gender. B and C should come before D if it is at all possible. As you stated, people who are being creepy are often not aware of it and should be told in a constructive way by someone that they trust. Mechvet has posted how to handle this conversation.

<snip>

To refer to your specific case, pulling the (male) student aside, and having a talk about how his actions are perceived can do him a lot of good, as well as remove the negative situation for the female student. The exact phrasing here is something you've got to CAREFULLY consider. Crushing the student's expression of affection isn't the goal. The goal is to explain that another person isn't perceiving their affection the same way, as well as to put into context the professional manner in which the student SHOULD act.

In summary, sometimes telling someone they're not acting right is what needs to be done. It's not a natural feeling, but it gets easier over time.

popnbrown

12-04-2016, 15:36

So I thought about this for a while and

One quick tip for recruiting female mentors: Don't recruit female mentors, recruit mentors.

I feel the need to be a little defensive, I apologize if I misunderstood.

I'm not saying you can't ask women to be mentors or recruit them more heavily. I am saying that you should find value in your female mentors beyond their gender.

I think I wasn't very thorough in my initial statement. I don't see that gender is the only value in female mentors, but I do think it is a value of female mentors. Perhaps we may have a disagreement as to the priority of that value, it's not currently high for me, but I could see it being high. So my question was really aimed at developing strategies when there's a time or for others where that value is high.

GreyingJay

12-04-2016, 16:09

I liked Mechvet's comment about mentoring so much that I've made it my signature.

There's absolutely no tolerance for being creepy, but I also get that students can be socially awkward and may not be doing it intentionally. As a mentor (and long time summer camp counsellor) when I see situations like this I try to have a talk with the instigator and let them know that their behaviour is unacceptable.

FRC teams should be a safe environment for all students. This includes making sure students feel safe from being harassed, but it should also be a safe place for corrective learning and encouragement without shaming or embarrassing people. What better place to teach our students how to treat other people right. They're certainly not getting that message from movies, TV shows, music, and social media.

Philip Arola

12-04-2016, 16:36

I think I get what you meant with this statement, but if that 'normal flirting' makes a student on my team uncomfortable, the offending student needs to be checked up on, not approached with the attitude of 'oh well, this is life'.

If it's an issue of alienating a teammate, male or female, with creepy behavior, then the issue has to be dealt with.

You're hovering right around a 'boys will be boys' (I guess in this case, 'nerds will be nerds') mentality with this post - I hope you can clarify what you're actually trying to say.

I think you might be confusing pragmatism for fatalism. As far as I can tell, he was saying that hormonal boys will act stupidly, and that this is natural. It is the job of adults (parents, teachers, mentors) to help them overcome their impulsiveness; that an impulsive boy is not going to necessarily be bad.

Let's not forget that mentors themselves can be creepy, especially when they attempt to intervene in teenage hormone-politics. As a mentor, I am fully accepting that I am a fallible being who can misread a situation. I have seen multiple mentors completely misjudge the speech and intent of students, and thus (publically) embarrass students, therefore creating the alienation themselves. Mentors should try to talk to the victim and gauge the situation appropriately before proceeding.

If there is any doubt on how to proceed, I would defer to parental involvement. Not only is it legally safer, parents generally know their kids better than coaches (and have a captive audience, I suppose).

It is really really s****y that I have to go to female student members on my team and walk them through best practices for dealing with unsolicited actions and unacceptable behavior from other people at competitions... but what am I supposed to do? Telling them and their parents "kids will be kids" and "boys will be boys" is an unacceptable response.

Team members sign a code of conduct and are reminded repeatedly throughout the season pretty bluntly to not be a creep or a jerk lest they be disappeared from the team if remedial action proves fruitless. FIRST and STEM does need a culture change to fix this really serious problem.

(Truncated quote, tried to keep it fair)
Yes, life sucks. That's been plain to me for years. As a mentor, you acknowledge that you don't want the students' life to suck. Great. I don't know if this is an uncharacteristically blunt post of yours, but it seems that you're far too unrealistic with what you want life to be like. There are lots of things that are bad that girls, indeed, all teenagers, even all people have to deal with. Even if change is what you are working towards, it is shortsighted and irresponsible to not teach them how to deal with it in the meantime.

Culture change? This statement implies that FIRST (and even more unrealistically, STEM) is monolithic. Not only is this a fundamental untruth at a team level, but on a geographic level. This is a cop-out, a meaningless phrase.

Karibou

12-04-2016, 17:49

One quick tip for recruiting female mentors: Don't recruit female mentors, recruit mentors.

"We want you to mentor our team because we want a lady mentor/positive female role model" is way less inviting than "We want you to mentor our team because of your X, Y, and Z skills." The former makes me valuable only because of my gender (something I have no control over) and the latter makes me valuable for the set of skills and knowledge I have worked to acquire and improve upon.

And to add to this, it's entirely possible for women to be awful mentors too. If you're recruiting female mentors just for the sake of having a female mentor, you're not going to gain anything unless they also have the skillset you're looking for in a mentor, and the skills a mentor needs to be a good mentor are independent of gender.

I've never had a strong female mentor*. Not in high school, not in college, not now as a full-time engineer. I have worked with and learned from many, many wonderful men and women (some in a technical situation, most not), but the only mentors* I have worked with in a consistent, daily/weekly capacity (like in FRC) or a 1-on-1 long-term capacity (like in college/careers) have been male. I greatly appreciate the support these men have given me and wouldn't trade them for the world.

Having only male mentors has worked for me. I might not work for every girl out there. Not all high school girls are comfortable approaching men (or they may be, but not for all topics), and for this reason, I think it's important to have a diverse set of mentors on an FRC team if possible. But, every mentor should be respectful and supportive, regardless of who they are and who they are mentoring.

*Everyone's definition of mentorship is different. I consider a mentor of mine to be someone I work extensively with and receive advice from regularly. As said above, I have worked with and learned from many fantastic people, but not always for a continued period of time. I consider them important influences in my life and greatly value they support, advice, and inspiration they have provided me, but would not necessarily define them as "mentors".

Amanda Morrison

12-04-2016, 21:38

Lets keep in mind that this is natural.

There are quite a few socially awkward male and females in robotics so these situations can get worse. And, the lack of females with the interest can extenuate the situation but regardless this is life.

I am not advocating for creepy behavior but normal flirting and tries at a relationship with other members or members from other teams are to be expected.

We all are high school students after all.

Yes, life sucks. That's been plain to me for years. As a mentor, you acknowledge that you don't want the students' life to suck. Great. I don't know if this is an uncharacteristically blunt post of yours, but it seems that you're far too unrealistic with what you want life to be like. There are lots of things that are bad that girls, indeed, all teenagers, even all people have to deal with.

I thought about it for a while, and yes, I think these are two of the most potentially harmful things I have ever read on this forum. In 15 years, that is quite a feat.

What you both are saying, to your mentors, your peers, and the whole of this community, is that your personal experience and gut feeling about an experience you haven't personally had trumps documented and researched societal bias, not to mention the experiences others HAVE had. To expect people of all genders to behave responsibly, and with respect toward other human beings, is not and will never be unrealistic. Because it does not happen 100% of the time does not mean the answer should be "deal with it".

You've made a few key mistakes here, such as:

- lumping in all females into one large group together without taking almost infinite factors into account (race, gender, height, weight, background, communication methods, invisible illnesses, etc.),

- trivializing seriously disturbing behavior toward women,

- speaking on behalf of women, all women! women everywhere! every single woman!, without discernable qualifications, and perhaps most important,

- deciding that the way women deal with situations is a woman's responsibility, but others' behavior is not their own responsibility

This kind of thinking creates a cyclical culture of alienating women from a community and then wondering why more women don't want to join that community. Trivializing anyone's experiences - of any gender - does nothing to help but does repeat that pattern, and in this way it is harmful. Thinking like this is why women are discouraged from STEM. Thinking like this is why women don't speak up. I say that because as a student way back when, hearing/seeing my mentors or peers speaking like this would have immediately shut me off from this program. Immediately.

OP, to get back to your original question, one option is to talk with your students so that they are aware how to handle harassment. It can happen to both genders in this setting (and yes, I have witnessed it), so I encourage this to be a team discussion. Knowledge is one thing you can do to empower your students to seek help when they feel uncomfortable.

The fact that you are pondering - and listening - about how to fix this real problem is already helping. I encourage you to seek out TED Talks and research that has already been done and posted online. There is a multitude of resources (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1487859#post1487859), especially that other wise CD members have posted in the past (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1461113#post1461113).

JBotAlan

12-04-2016, 21:52

I think we have two camps misunderstanding each other. I could be wrong, it's happened once or twice before, but...

I don't think anyone on this thread is taking the position that the behavior I've described (borderline stalking) is acceptable and nothing should be done about it, at least that isn't how I'm reading what's happening in this thread.

To put it into my own terms, I was a social outcast coming into FIRST, and really my peers, mentors, other students' parents and my teachers did a very good job of forming me, teaching me norms, dos and don'ts, and correcting misbehavior along the way. I made folks uncomfortable completely unintentionally. I said some nasty things that I had no clue were nasty until I saw the reactions on peoples' faces. And this was all in the process of learning the norms that my classmates had long picked up by this point in life. This social formation is singlehandedly the best element of what FIRST did for me along the way to graduation and college.

I think what the posters have tried to express is not "boys will be boys" but rather that this is an ugly, messy, painful, screwed up process in which mistakes are going to be made and people are going to need correction and help understanding and getting through.

I figured I would get called out on specifying that the female is on the receiving end of male misbehavior. I'm sure it does happen in the reverse, I'd never claim it doesn't, but the examples I've had at hand have all been male misconduct. I don't mean to make a statement of fact about either gender and I am genuinely sorry if my remarks came across to the contrary.

Jacob

Cothron Theiss

12-04-2016, 21:55

Ok, so I'll interject a question into this discussion to see how other teams handle this. Do you allow dating and relationships between team members? Are there any expectations or standards you set regarding this?

As for my team, we have several relationships between members. Some of these relationships occurred because of their interactions at Robotics, some of these relationships started LONG before they joined Robotics. We have not had any issues with this, but we have had team members leave the team to preserve their relationships with other team members.
So far, no mentor has ever spoken to the students about relationships with other team members, but thankfully we haven't needed anyone to as of yet.

The conversation of the thread has turned more to eliminating sexual harassment before it rears its ugly head in FIRST, but I believe this is a relevant topic. Any other approaches to inter-team relationships?

Sperkowsky

12-04-2016, 21:55

I thought about it for a while, and yes, I think these are two of the most potentially harmful things I have ever read on this forum. In 15 years, that is quite a feat.

You've made a few key mistakes here, such as:

- lumping in all females into one large group together without taking almost infinite factors into account (race, gender, height, weight, background, communication methods, invisible illnesses, etc.),

- trivializing seriously disturbing behavior toward women,

- speaking on behalf of women, all women! women everywhere! every single woman!, without discernable qualifications, and perhaps most important,

- deciding that the way women deal with situations is a woman's responsibility, but others' behavior is not their own responsibility

This kind of thinking creates a cyclical culture of alienating women from a community and then wondering why more women don't want to join that community. Trivializing anyone's experiences - of any gender - does nothing to help but does repeat that pattern, and in this way it is harmful. Thinking like this is why women are discouraged from STEM. Thinking like this is why women don't speak up. I say that because as a student way back when, hearing/seeing my mentors or peers speaking like this would have immediately shut me off from this program. Immediately.

To start I am going to remark that, that first statement was unnecessary.

What does (race, height, weight, background, communication methods, invisible illnesses, etc.) have to do with anything?

Are you calling awkward flirting "seriously disturbing?"

I would also like to remark that we are speaking purely hypothetically no specific occurrences were mentioned.

I am going to give some experience not mine but of one of my female friends on our team.

At the NYC regional she was constantly for lack of better words hit on. She had 5 guys ask for her number 2 not even from the United States. She even had one buy her Starbucks. During the event she found everyone to be respectful following the same limits they would in regular life. After the event one of them got slightly creepy and she simply told him she had no feelings for him and he respected that. Awkward situations can make someone uncomfortable but it does not mean that they are necessarily wrong.

Unless a member goes above normal social limits IE touching the said member in an inappropriate way, stalking said member, or continuously making a member uncomfortable mentors getting involved especially older ones will mostly make the situation worse embarrassing both parties involved.

Also, I never spoke on behalf of woman.

You are completely taking both of these statements out of proportion and forcing words into both of our mouths.

JBotAlan

12-04-2016, 22:15

Do you allow dating and relationships between team members?

On the team I was a student, the rule was "absolutely not". It was repeatedly strongly expressed that there would be no visible relationship type stuff happening at robotics. I know that team members were split up in the stands at different points because of this.

My personal mentality as a mentor is that I don't want to see it. FIRST events/build nights are more or less a professional environment, and kissy face doesn't belong there, much less purple hotel rooms. As long as the student doesn't make it a problem for me, I don't care. But I'd better find a better way of expressing that, because telling my kids "don't let me see it" seems like a bad idea! :yikes:

Jacob

izz

12-04-2016, 22:23

One possible solution would be to have mentors sit in areas where a female student could potentially be bothered by male student[s].

Example:
There is a group of male students sitting around a female student. If there is a mentor sitting with them, they will be less encouraged to do anything wierd.

Being a female student who usually prefers to hang out in large groups of guys rather than girls, I disagree with this idea. I occasionally already feel somewhat different than most of my friends because of societal gender segregation, and this would only make things worse if my friends were watched every time I hung out with them just because I am a girl. That being said, people (including other students) should look out for odd behavior because it does sometimes happen.

bombodail

12-04-2016, 22:36

ollien

12-04-2016, 22:50

One of our team members talked to me after our first regional and said that there were some far more creepy comments than what could be considered "casual flirting." I think that FIRST needs to take some kind of action, whether it's as minimal as a note in the admin manual that all team members should be comfortable with each other's words/actions, or something as extreme as a designated mediator at events.

To quote the definition of gracious professionalism (emphasis mine)

Gracious Professionalism®is part of the ethos of FIRST. It’s a way of doing things that encourages high quality work, emphasizes the value of others, and respects individuals and the community.

Let's all remember that we're here to get inspired. The easiest way to uninspired someone is to make them feel unwelcome and disrespected.

Cothron Theiss

12-04-2016, 22:50

My personal mentality as a mentor is that I don't want to see it. FIRST events/build nights are more or less a professional environment, and kissy face doesn't belong there, much less purple hotel rooms.

Wow, thanks for the input. I didn't know if other teams would have strict policies against saying. I had forgotten when I first replied in the thread, but we did have to kick out two members pretty much in the second week of our Rookie build season. They had made it pretty clear they were not there to build robots, and we were housed in an engineering facility at the time. They were never seen again.

Also, you mentioned hotel rooms. Since our Rookie year, we have never had to travel to events. I guess we haven't had to approach that aspect of the issue, just because we haven't gone to Worlds since 2013. I can see that a policy regarding this would be much more important when a team traveled or stayed in a hotel.

Amanda Morrison

12-04-2016, 23:04

...

That is my true opinion, given that your recommendations can potentially have an effect on the way young men or women report uncomfortable behavior to their authority figures ("this is life", "this is natural"), regardless of whether or not it turns out to be harmless. I'd rather be dragged aside by students 1000 times than have one student feel uncomfortable at an event. I doubt any mentor would feel otherwise,

Mass generalizations rarely capture the full story. Different people from different backgrounds with different characteristics will react to situations very... differently. For instance, I had a situation much like OP, with a student who had some special requirements that came into play. As a mentor I decided to handle the situation a little more gently based on that person's mental illness. "This is life" and "this is normal" is tough. What is normal and who defines it?,

"I watched one of my (female) students get sufficiently creeped out by a (male) student's behavior towards her that she was physically hiding from him at the competition." is a sufficiently bad example for me.

I am sincerely very glad that your friend had a good experience. Those happen more often than not, though not all experiences are good (again, see above). Many of the bad examples do not need to be shared on a public forum,

By stating "Lets keep in mind that this is natural", "this is life", etc. I strongly disagree. Hiding from someone who is creeping you out is never OK.

A lot of women have strong feelings based on the experiences they've had. Being told "this is life" would not have made it easier if it were me in the OP's situation - in fact, it would have made me feel more isolated for feeling creeped out, when others were telling me "don't be creeped out" when I clearly was. The best option is always to approach a mentor about behavior that makes you uncomfortable, even if it turns out to be misguided flirting. I urge your friend to speak up about her good experience, and if you have not had your own experiences - listen. I did not assume you or the other poster had ill intent by posting, but it doesn't make your messages any less potentially harmful if it discourages students from reporting behavior that makes them feel uncomfortable. I would urge you to send me a message privately if you'd like to have further discourse. I didn't post to argue with you but please realize the potential consequence of your words and how it might affect a young person who encounters this situation. I posted because hopefully someone reads that message that really needs it. That person might not be you.

I agree that growing up is hard - I did it once and it sucked.

I don't mean to make a statement of fact about either gender and I am genuinely sorry if my remarks came across to the contrary.

I don't think so. Look, this is a tough topic with lots of strong feelings. Unless we're talking about it, we're not doing much to find the root cause and potential solutions. I commend you for talking about this, but there's no forum post answer. It's not easy. The uncomfortable factor happens to both males and females, I have dealt with both as recently as this year. Sometimes kids just need someone to talk with when a situation makes them uncomfortable. Approaching this in a very adult way - "here is the plan if you feel uncomfortable at any time, and here are 2-3 mentors that you can approach to discuss if needed, judgement free" - will help the students to handle this in an adult way, too.

Philip Arola

12-04-2016, 23:27

I thought about it for a while, and yes, I think these are two of the most potentially harmful things I have ever read on this forum. In 15 years, that is quite a feat.

What you both are saying, to your mentors, your peers, and the whole of this community, is that your personal experience and gut feeling about an experience you haven't personally had trumps documented and researched societal bias, not to mention the experiences others HAVE had. To expect people of all genders to behave responsibly, and with respect toward other human beings, is not and will never be unrealistic. Because it does not happen 100% of the time does not mean the answer should be "deal with it".
Inflammatory rhetoric aside, I agree. "Deal with it" is an insufficient response. Mentors should be teaching how to deal with it. You can work to eliminate it, but meanwhile, take steps to mitigate damage. It's like a vaccine. Yeah, whooping cough sucks, and I shouldn't have to worry about my kid getting sick. Am I going to inoculate my (theoretical) child? Yes.

- lumping in all females into one large group together without taking almost infinite factors into account (race, gender, height, weight, background, communication methods, invisible illnesses, etc.),
So you say take things case by case? The exact thing I was saying?

- trivializing seriously disturbing behavior toward women,
See, you are doing what you are supposedly against. You are lumping every possible incident under one umbrella. Characterizing awkward situations as 'seriously disturbing' is a gross overreaction, and moves shame from the victim to the offender. What I want is no one to feel shame while coming to an understanding.

- speaking on behalf of women, all women! women everywhere! every single woman!, without discernable qualifications, and perhaps most important,
No I didn't. Show me where I purported to do so.

- deciding that the way women deal with situations is a woman's responsibility, but others' behavior is not their own responsibility
Again, where do you come up with this? When I say caution is important, that does not mean to absolve people of their transgressions.

This kind of thinking creates a cyclical culture of alienating women from a community and then wondering why more women don't want to join that community. Trivializing anyone's experiences - of any gender - does nothing to help but does repeat that pattern, and in this way it is harmful. Thinking like this is why women are discouraged from STEM. Thinking like this is why women don't speak up. I say that because as a student way back when, hearing/seeing my mentors or peers speaking like this would have immediately shut me off from this program. Immediately. .
Again, you need context here. You are lumping every possible awkward situation 'seriously disturbing,' and that they are not meant to be trivialized. Just because I think that there are worse things in the world than a boy unable to properly gauge a situation doesn't mean I trivialize sexual abuse. In fact, lumping in awkwardness is what, by definition, trivializes abuse.

ATannahill

12-04-2016, 23:38

That is my true opinion, given that your recommendations can potentially have an effect on the way young men or women report uncomfortable behavior to their authority figures ("this is life", "this is natural"), regardless of whether or not it turns out to be harmless. I'd rather be dragged aside by students 1000 times than have one student feel uncomfortable at an event. I doubt any mentor would feel otherwise,

Mass generalizations rarely capture the full story. Different people from different backgrounds with different characteristics will react to situations very... differently. For instance, I had a situation much like OP, with a student who had some special requirements that came into play. As a mentor I decided to handle the situation a little more gently based on that person's mental illness. "This is life" and "this is normal" is tough. What is normal and who defines it?,

"I watched one of my (female) students get sufficiently creeped out by a (male) student's behavior towards her that she was physically hiding from him at the competition." is a sufficiently bad example for me.

I am sincerely very glad that your friend had a good experience. Those happen more often than not, though not all experiences are good (again, see above). Many of the bad examples do not need to be shared on a public forum,

By stating "Lets keep in mind that this is natural", "this is life", etc. I strongly disagree. Hiding from someone who is creeping you out is never OK.

A lot of women have strong feelings based on the experiences they've had. Being told "this is life" would not have made it easier if it were me in the OP's situation - in fact, it would have made me feel more isolated for feeling creeped out, when others were telling me "don't be creeped out" when I clearly was. The best option is always to approach a mentor about behavior that makes you uncomfortable, even if it turns out to be misguided flirting. I urge your friend to speak up about her good experience, and if you have not had your own experiences - listen. I did not assume you or the other poster had ill intent by posting, but it doesn't make your messages any less potentially harmful if it discourages students from reporting behavior that makes them feel uncomfortable. I would urge you to send me a message privately if you'd like to have further discourse. I didn't post to argue with you but please realize the potential consequence of your words and how it might affect a young person who encounters this situation. I posted because hopefully someone reads that message that really needs it. That person might not be you.

I agree that growing up is hard - I did it once and it sucked.

I do not believe that anyone is saying that actions that are creepy, or that are perceived as creepy, should be allowed. I think the issue that is arising is the fact that not everyone feels the same away about certain actions.

For example, some people like giving and getting hugs. As a student I was not a fan of physical contact, people have told me that my personal bubble was armed with machine guns. I have since loosened up and am more comfortable with people I know but I still would not hug a stranger or the majority of FIRSTers. When there is an interaction between someone that is fine with hugging new people and the kind of person I was in high school, there is friction. The important thing to remember is that both people are in the right. They are allowed to be comfortable with their own preferences and they have the responsibility to respect the other's preferences.

We can expand this to student interactions, specifically the frequency and nature of the interactions. Some people may have different preferences for different people based on any number of factors (attraction, hug quality, personal relationship, etc.). Some people do not have the ability to pick up on the other person's preferences and as such they may come off as offensive or creepy. This should be corrected in a constructive way.

What we need to do as mentors (remember the being a positive force in someone's life definition) is help students to realize when they may be making someone else uncomfortable and teach them to notice the signs in the future, as well as how to improve upon their behavior and accept the different kinds of relationships they will have with other people.

* I want to end this post saying that I have not assigned genders to anyone in this post. This is because all genders can play either role.

jweston

13-04-2016, 00:14

Look, this is a tough topic with lots of strong feelings. Unless we're talking about it, we're not doing much to find the root cause and potential solutions. I commend you for talking about this, but there's no forum post answer. It's not easy. The uncomfortable factor happens to both males and females, I have dealt with both as recently as this year. Sometimes kids just need someone to talk with when a situation makes them uncomfortable. Approaching this in a very adult way - "here is the plan if you feel uncomfortable at any time, and here are 2-3 mentors that you can approach to discuss if needed, judgement free" - will help the students to handle this in an adult way, too.

One of the things that makes this so difficult is one person's awkward flirting is another's persistent harassment. It gets complicated because in at least many American subcultures, girls are socialized to be accommodating and, if not passive, non-aggressive (YMMV).

This means girls often have a lot of trouble figuring out when it's reasonable for them to tell a guy to back off because, hey, this guy was just trying to be nice. A great example is when a guy starts talking about how favorably he finds a girl's personal appearance. I won't call that "complimenting" because it's really all about him. Or he buys her gifts. Or he tries to do her favors, even if she doesn't want them.

This sets a trap because we call these things compliments or being nice when it's really all about what the guy wants. A girl who finds herself facing a guy's advances that she does not actively welcome (i.e. she's either neutral or does not want them) has two choices: she can either endure, perhaps with greatest levels of socially acceptable discouragement and hope he goes away; or she can tell the guy to back off and risk being labeled as someone who can't take a compliment or is anti-social or stuck up. Not just by the guy, but by her community. Whether or not you believe that fear is reasonable, it's very real to many, many girls. Sadly, I have seen too often communities come down on a girl because she "could have been a little nicer about it."

This is really a human issue. Maybe we in FRC are a little more aware of it because our community knows that girls are underrepresented in STEM and we're trying to find a way to balance that. Plus, as noted, many teenagers are inexperienced and/or immature. They're going to make mistakes. That's not an excuse, just a realistic expectation.

The important part is to make sure students who make mistakes are corrected. The student doesn't need to be embarrassed into submission. They need to understand how they can tell if their actions will create an unwelcoming environment.

dubiousSwain

13-04-2016, 00:23

...

* I want to end this post saying that I have not assigned genders to anyone in this post. This is because both genders can play either role.

Not trying to de-rail the thread, but just letting you know that there are more than two genders. Just something to keep in mind as this thread continues.

Munchskull

13-04-2016, 00:45

For example, some people like giving and getting hugs. As a student I was not a fan of physical contact, people have told me that my personal bubble was armed with machine guns. I have since loosened up and am more comfortable with people I know but I still would not hug a stranger. When there is an interaction between someone that is fine with hugging new people and the kind of person I was in high school, there is friction. The important thing to remember is that both people are in the right. They are allowed to be comfortable with their own actions and they have the responsibility to respect the other's preferences.

At the risk of getting pulled in into the thick of this conversation I would like to comment about the above post. As some one who is a hugger there can be friction with new friends who do not appreciate hugs. Recently I have taken to giving my friends a quick "bro tap" after an emotionally charged match, awards presentation, ect. If they are receptive great, if not I remember and don'the do it again. Works pretty well, have not had issues.

However when it comes to female friends I am not as quick to give them a hug. I (as a male student) work to be aware of how my actions are perceived by my friend so that an awkward/uncomfortable situation is not created. Is easy to forget that a simple platonic gesture can be miss read when intended for the opposite gender*. It is not to say that I will not give my female friends hug, I just err on the side of caution and make sure that it is a mutual thing.

I am not sure how exactly this pertains to the discussion over all, but I feel that it fits some where. The intend message being that it is OK (and even encouraged) that male and female students intreact, it is up to both parties to recognize boundaries of the other party. And if either party is uncomfortable they should by all means speak up and if necessary get a mentor.

Alan Anderson

13-04-2016, 01:05

ATannahill

13-04-2016, 01:11

Hugging someone who does not want to be hugged should not be a "comfortable" action. The hugger in that case is not in the right. The huggee is not responsible for respecting the hugger's preference to give the hug.

What you are saying sounds disturbingly close to the idea that rejecting an advance can be considered an attack. I'm sure you don't think that's how you said it, but as a hug-averse person myself, I have had to threaten more than one team mascot with an official complaint when they refuse to accept that I do not want to be touched, much less hugged. The all-too-common reaction is to accuse me of being mean to them.
I mistakenly put the wrong word in my post and I have changed it. The person wanting to give people hugs should be comfortable in wanting to give hugs, as the person wanting to avoid physical contact should be comfortable in turning down a hug. The potential hugger is responsible for respecting the other person's objection to the hug, as the huggee is responsible for respecting the hugger's preference to give hugs to others, even if they do not participate themselves.

AmiableVariable

13-04-2016, 03:48

Preface: my problems here are not in reference to my team

A girl who finds herself facing a guy's advances that she does not actively welcome (i.e. she's either neutral or does not want them) has two choices: she can either endure, perhaps with greatest levels of socially acceptable discouragement and hope he goes away; or she can tell the guy to back off and risk being labeled as someone who can't take a compliment or is anti-social or stuck up. Not just by the guy, but by her community. Whether or not you believe that fear is reasonable, it's very real to many, many girls. Sadly, I have seen too often communities come down on a girl because she "could have been a little nicer about it."

^Trimmed for length

I have personally been on the wrong end of this. Though it is not exclusive to the FIRST community, it does definitely exist. I have a couple examples of people either hovering around creepily for extended periods of time, and of people blatantly touching me without my consent. One standout:Last year during eliminations at Worlds, I had an alliance partner who decided it was a fantastic idea to walk up behind me and run their hands down both of my shoulders. Though I very quickly disabused them of this notion, this left me feel a little unsettled, especially in such a high-stress environment. All I basically did was turn around, glare, and tell them not to touch me, and they quickly backed off. When I finally got around to telling this to my mom several months later, in the context of being worried about going into engineering due to gender issues, the first reaction was to say that I could have been perceived as a "psychotic *****", and to give me a lecture on how to be gentler in redresses if I wanted to really make a change in the community. This sort of reaction is a problem, and definitely gave me pause as I was working through applying to school for engineering.

In regards to the comments about the problem being awkward and well-meaning youth, I am a fan of the quote: "Your right to swing your arms ends at my right not to be punched in the nose". Rewritten for this case: "Your right to be an awkward human seeking affection ends at my right to have my personal boundaries and space respected". People have the right to set their own boundaries, and expect people to respect at least the standard socially agreed upon ones. There is no need for me to respect the preference of the person crossing my boundary, no more than there is for me to respect the desire of someone to punch me. Appropriate actions may vary.

Lets keep in mind that this is natural.

There are quite a few socially awkward male and females in robotics so these situations can get worse. And, the lack of females with the interest can extenuate the situation but regardless this is life.
.
The person being encroached upon has the final say as to whether or not their boundaries have been crossed. To be devils advocate: If I feel that the level of harassment/ boundary issues is higher in engineering than my general life (which it most definitely is), and those in the field insist that this is natural, and just part of life in engineering, why on earth would I be willing to put in the effort to be rewarded with a hazardous and emotionally draining environment? It takes a very high level of interest to be willing to deal with that on a regular basis. Have you ever had to consider that by working in a STEM field, you will statistically be more likely to be harassed and discriminated against? Because that in itself is a significant deterrent, without the issue being brushed aside. There are reasons why girls tend to show less interest.

I agree that there is no inherent harm in flirting where boundaries are respected. I do have a problem with a blanket statement of "this is life" and "this is natural "in a thread where the topic of discussion trends towards harassment and how to deal with it to make for a more welcoming environment. Even if you intended to refer to indubitably clean mutual flirting, the context and phrasing made it sound much worse. Ditto for indirectly attributing these problems on girls lack of interest in the field. Neither make for a more welcoming environment.

The intend message being that it is OK (and even encouraged) that male and female students intreact, it is up to both parties to recognize boundaries of the other party. And if either party is uncomfortable they should by all means speak up and if necessary get a mentor.

As a (female) friend of Munchskull's, I can say that he tends to be pretty good about this, from what I have seen. He always gestures and makes sure he gets a positive response before getting into peoples space. I also see no problem with this, as long as everyone is happy with it. I am a big fan of hugs, as long as I get a say in whether or not I am getting them. As soon as someone isn't ok it is time to just back off.

As to how to teach this, I am not certain. Prevention wise, I would say the key points need to be teaching students appropriate boundaries. Defensive wise, I agree strongly with MysterE's advice. Stress the concept that people have the right to feel safe in this environment, whether that be themselves or others.

MariOlsen

13-04-2016, 06:20

People of ChiefDelphi,

On one of the teams I have mentored, I watched one of my (female) students get sufficiently creeped out by a (male) student's behavior towards her that she was physically hiding from him at the competition.

I've seen similar behavior at the college level with a handful of close friends.

This is definitely a loaded topic which is made even tougher because people have different levels of tolerance for possibly creepy behavior.

To start, I think everyone agrees that the vast majority of people in FIRST and STEM in general are kind, mature individuals who know how to behave responsibly and can read social cues. Unfortunately, it's the negative cases that stick out and can be off-putting.

As a woman at a technical school, I've not experienced direct harassment. Only one of my male classmates has ever treated me condescendingly, and it's possible that it wasn't because of my gender. However, a group of friends and I have been seriously creeped out by one of the men living in our dorm. It was difficult to come up with why exactly he was so much creepier than our friends and explain why we were more comfortable sitting next to and physically interacting with the other guys but not him, but luckily we were able to have someone talk to him on our behalf. It hasn't stopped entirely, but having explicit permission to call him out and explain to him that he's making us uncomfortable not only makes us more comfortable but will hopefully help him in the future. It would be great if this permission could be granted explicitly through teams, FIRST, and other STEM organizations, because in my experience, even the most outspoken of us are hesitant to be openly "confrontational".

On the other hand, I have been told by friends that guys were acting creepily towards me even though I just interpreted it as social awkwardness (even though I was seriously avoiding some of them; major red flag). I was convinced that most of them would be mortified if someone told them they were being creepy or assumed they were romantically interested in me, but I've been wrong at least once and was called an ice queen for refusing to go to a dance with him.

Teenagers are mean, and I think it's important to emphasize that just because a girl is kind to you does not necessarily mean she'll want to be your date, and no girl should ever feel obligated to be someone's pity date. Communication really helps: once it was made clear that I was not interested, 4 years of awkwardness practically disappeared. He joined the team and we worked well together. However, I feel like it may be even more awkward to presume a romantic interest if none exists.

Do you allow dating and relationships between team members?

My team had a relationship, but they were on different subteams so it mainly worked out. Our mentors just had them sit near the front during the ride to St. Louis and there may have been some hand-holding/arms around each other during matches but that was it. I dated someone on another team; we avoided talking about private team business but since his team was mentoring mine we were a convenient communication link. I think the most disruptive we got was when our teams were sitting a row apart watching Einstein and we texted about the matches rather than directly talking because we were sitting with our teams. A couple of his mentors came up and asked "Why don't you two just sit together already?" and moved so that we could sit in between the teams. As long as people are mature, don't let it interfere with the team, and avoid PDA, there shouldn't be a problem.

However when it comes to female friends I am not as quick to give them a hug. I (as a male student) work to be aware of how my actions are perceived by my friend so that an awkward/uncomfortable situation is not created. Is easy to forget that a simple platonic gesture can be miss read when intended for the opposite gender*. It is not to say that I will not give my female friends hug, I just err on the side of caution and make sure that it is a mutual thing.

As a (female) friend of Munchskull's, I can say that he tends to be pretty good about this, from what I have seen. He always gestures and makes sure he gets a positive response before getting into peoples space. I also see no problem with this, as long as everyone is happy with it. I am a big fan of hugs, as long as I get a say in whether or not I am getting them. As soon as someone isn't ok it is time to just back off.

All of the guys on my team have become some of my best friends, so I feel perfectly comfortable hugging most of them. There are some that I simply don't know well enough to hug and others that I always ask before hugging, and I know which ones I can give running hugs to after particularly great matches. It may be easier initiating a hug as a female, but I feel like standing with arms outstretched and waiting for them to hug you is pretty safe and that it's fairly obvious when hugs are consensual or not. At first, I was always the one initiating hugs, but I really enjoy the fact that some of them feel comfortable hugging me too.

What about mentors hugging students (or students hugging mentors)? I feel like most people would say that mentors ought not to initiate a hug, but what about accepting one? I hug as a form of greeting if I feel comfortable with someone, but some of my mentors refused to let me hug them until I graduated. I understand that hugs may be misinterpreted and thus are probably best avoided, but it still makes me a bit sad.

MooreteP

13-04-2016, 06:48

Not trying to de-rail the thread, but just letting you know that there are more than two genders. Just something to keep in mind as this thread continues.

Oh dear, I was hoping this aspect wouldn't cloud the thread, but here goes.

How do you handle room assignments on a field trip to a travel competition when students are openly LBGTQ?
We usually packed 4 students to a room (before districts).
When their sexual orientation would be taken into account, the math became more expensive.

The students were cool about it, but us mentors were befuddled.

Back to the original topic:
Female Engineering mentors, like Minority mentors, are a prized commodity.
The demands on their time and availability as "representatives" are greater in comparison to those placed on traditional "caucasian" male mentors.
The pressure placed upon them due to their "identity" is something that many of us don't quite appreciate or understand.

jweston

13-04-2016, 09:19

As a woman at a technical school, I've not experienced direct harassment.
...

On the other hand, I have been told by friends that guys were acting creepily towards me even though I just interpreted it as social awkwardness (even though I was seriously avoiding some of them; major red flag). I was convinced that most of them would be mortified if someone told them they were being creepy or assumed they were romantically interested in me, but I've been wrong at least once and was called an ice queen for refusing to go to a dance with him.

It's interesting how blurry the line can be between reasonable behavior and harassment. If you have guys who are creeping on you enough that you feel the need to avoid them, we're quickly sliding into harassment territory. If you turn someone down and get called names like "ice queen", it's definitely harassment, simply because the messge to females is "you're supposed to be nice." Btw, I'm going off the definition of harassment as "aggressive pressure or initimidation." Harassment need not be a repeated pattern. Sometimes it's a one-off action intended to demean.

As for relationships among team members, our team allows and has students who date, both in-team and cross-team. Our basic rule is "don't act in a way that tells everyone you're a couple."

What about mentors hugging students (or students hugging mentors)? I feel like most people would say that mentors ought not to initiate a hug, but what about accepting one? I hug as a form of greeting if I feel comfortable with someone, but some of my mentors refused to let me hug them until I graduated. I understand that hugs may be misinterpreted and thus are probably best avoided, but it still makes me a bit sad.

Our team is very conscious about appropriate mentor contact. Generally, mentors on our team don't do hugs. I did have one student hug me last year after a very emotional competition. It was brief and probably looked terribly awkward (I'm not a hugger to start) but, given the circumstances, I just rolled with it.

Jon Stratis

13-04-2016, 09:56

What about mentors hugging students (or students hugging mentors)? I feel like most people would say that mentors ought not to initiate a hug, but what about accepting one? I hug as a form of greeting if I feel comfortable with someone, but some of my mentors refused to let me hug them until I graduated. I understand that hugs may be misinterpreted and thus are probably best avoided, but it still makes me a bit sad.

As a general rule I avoid it as much as possible with current students. I do make exceptions for special circumstances - dean's list finalists/winners get a hug when they get their award, and everyone on the team gave me a hug when I got WFFA (and according to one of my students, I looked super awkward the whole time). Returning graduates usually get a hug when I see them - always initiated by them, but understandable when you don't see someone for the better part of a year.

Let's keep in mind with this thread that, while I'm certainly aware there are certainly plenty of problems caused by guys, some of them are caused by girls reactions. Some girls are naturally more open and outgoing, which guys can interpret as "flirty" if they wish, and so how a girl interacts with a guy may unintentionally lead him on. I had one incident with a student this year that reportedly have a guy her number at a competition. When asked about it, she said she gave him a wrong number when he asked for it(yes, we've all seen that on TV). I took the time to explain to her how that sends the wrong message - it encourages his attention for the rest of the event, and lets him down hard later on when he realizes. It's much more appropriate and professional to say "i'm sorry, but I'm not interested", or if you refer, "i'm sorry, but that's against team rules" (which it actually is for our team). Be direct, be honest, and be professional about it. There's no need to make a big scene or to put up with unwanted attention (in either direction) because you don't want to address the issue.

Karthik

13-04-2016, 10:40

The sooner we stop focusing on teaching girls how to deal with harassment from boys, and start teaching boys not to harass girls, the better. The onus needs to be on the perpetrators of harassment, not the victims.

And yes, what you might call "normal teenage behaviour" or "creepiness", I call harassment.

Philip Arola

13-04-2016, 10:43

I agree that there is no inherent harm in flirting where boundaries are respected. I do have a problem with a blanket statement of "this is life" and "this is natural "in a thread where the topic of discussion trends towards harassment and how to deal with it to make for a more welcoming environment. Even if you intended to refer to indubitably clean mutual flirting, the context and phrasing made it sound much worse. Ditto for indirectly attributing these problems on girls lack of interest in the field. Neither make for a more welcoming environment.
It looks like Sperkowski has been misinterpreted by a lot of people. He is being pragmatic, not fatalistic. Meaning he appears think that this is an inevitable consequence of life, not that we should be doing nothing. The point of that being that perhaps there needs to be understanding of both sides, and a measured response. This was because the thread had already deviated from the original harassment angle, and strayed into territory where someone said to embarrass people making you feel uncomfortable. Furthermore, we are also not saying that people who are uncomfortable should not speak up. As far as what I believe and have already said, I believe quite the opposite. What I believe, and what people misinterpret as fatalism, is that we shouldn't be shaming awkward teenagers when they are awkward.

As someone who shares Sperkowski's viewpoint, I can say that harassment is totally unacceptable, and certainly NOT what I (and probably he was) am talking about when we talk about "that this is natural." He is referring to uncomfortable situations that arise because someone is simply awkward by nature.

To deviate slightly, I find the rules banning relationships to be quite ill conceived. Not only is this unenforceable (you need to get parents involved, and I don't think you are going to have too much success even with that), but it is a direct discouragement of healthy relationships. I don't like teams being embroiled in drama as much as the next person, but do you honestly think that forcing high schoolers to suppress their hormones (assuming they just don't go behind everyone's back) will work?

Madison

13-04-2016, 11:16

One way we might help to make STEM a better place for women is to stop telling them they're wrong when they share their experiences and perspective.

jweston

13-04-2016, 11:47

One thing I am a bit troubled by is how much of this behavior goes on either undetected by mentors or not heard about until long after it happened. You try to be as watchful as you can but at a competition with 2-3 dozen students in various locations, it's impossible to be omniscient.

Last week, I learned of harassment of girls on our team by members of another team which happened last year during Worlds. No one on our team ever said anything about it to a mentor until last week. The only reason it came up now was because we had another similar incident recently which mentors were aware of. It was quite unsettling.

Katie_UPS

13-04-2016, 12:54

Its very hard as a female to be involved in these conversations because even though the experiences and insights relevant are those of my fellow ladies, our posts are either ignored or argued against.

If you want to help women in STEM, start by listening to women in STEM and not arguing against what they say. If a girl says someone creeped her out, don't argue that it wasn't creepy.

and of course as I had this sitting in my drafts, Madison posts the same thing

Unless a member goes above normal social limits IE touching the said member in an inappropriate way, stalking said member, or continuously making a member uncomfortable mentors getting involved especially older ones will mostly make the situation worse embarrassing both parties involved.

If a student is not comfortable taking care of the situation themselves, they have every right to ask a mentor for help. Like Amanda said, "[A mentor would] rather be dragged aside by students 1000 times than have one student feel uncomfortable at an event."

Characterizing awkward situations as 'seriously disturbing' is a gross overreaction, and moves shame from the victim to the offender. What I want is no one to feel shame while coming to an understanding.

The victim should never ever feel ashamed. I know you are not implying that in any scenario, the person receiving unwanted advances should feel like that have done something wrong.

If A made B uncomfortable, its completely acceptable for A to feel shame. It's a great tool for learning when one did something not-good and should avoid doing that in the future.

You are lumping every possible awkward situation 'seriously disturbing,' and that they are not meant to be trivialized. Just because I think that there are worse things in the world than a boy unable to properly gauge a situation doesn't mean I trivialize sexual abuse. In fact, lumping in awkwardness is what, by definition, trivializes abuse.

Why are we down-grading creepy behavior to "awkwardness." The original anecdote was "I watched one of my (female) students get sufficiently creeped out by a (male) student's behavior towards her that she was physically hiding from him at the competition."

You don't "physically hide" from awkwardness. Why are we excusing creepy/inappropriate behavior and calling it "awkwardness". I have worked with students who needed guidance on how to interact with humans, I get that there can be awkward kids. But when someone does something wrong we shouldn't be brushing it off, we should be correcting them with "whoa, [person], that was wrong."

One of the things that makes this so difficult is one person's awkward flirting is another's persistent harassment.

This isn't difficult. If a student is feeling harassed, they should have every right to NOT be harassed and the awkward flirting should stop.

If I feel that the level of harassment/ boundary issues is higher in engineering than my general life (which it most definitely is), and those in the field insist that this is natural, and just part of life in engineering, why on earth would I be willing to put in the effort to be rewarded with a hazardous and emotionally draining environment? It takes a very high level of interest to be willing to deal with that on a regular basis. Have you ever had to consider that by working in a STEM field, you will statistically be more likely to be harassed and discriminated against? Because that in itself is a significant deterrent, without the issue being brushed aside. There are reasons why girls tend to show less interest.

How do we make STEM a better place for women? By supporting women who say "something made me uncomfortable" instead of saying "deal with it." Because saying "deal with it" or making excuses for it, as AmiableVariable pointed out, does not help anybody.

A lot of posters who are getting defensive make me think that they maybe, at one point in time, participated in "creepy" behavior. Insisting that the behavior is question is not "creepy" but instead "awkward" or "misguided," is not helping anyone. Instead of excusing creepy behavior or debating what behavior is creepy, we should guide those "misguided, awkward" students so that instead of coming across as creepy, they come across as normal humans who can interact with other humans.

If a person is uncomfortable with another person's actions, ask how you can help correct the situation. Maybe they just want moral support but can deal with the person themselves or maybe they will want someone step in and do the talking. Ask and respect their answer.

Taylor

13-04-2016, 13:32

Oh dear, I was hoping this aspect wouldn't cloud the thread, but here goes.

How do you handle room assignments on a field trip to a travel competition when students are openly LBGTQ?
We usually packed 4 students to a room (before districts).
When their sexual orientation would be taken into account, the math became more expensive.

The students were cool about it, but us mentors were befuddled.

This struggle is real. What worked with us is we told our students that for liability reasons, we're assigning rooms by biology. When it was laid out that way, they were pretty accepting.

Jaci

13-04-2016, 13:48

This struggle is real. What worked with us is we told our students that for liability reasons, we're assigning rooms by biology. When it was laid out that way, they were pretty accepting.

This doesn't really work.

Full disclosure: I'm a MTF Transgender person, and have been open about it for almost a year now. This year, when it came to room arrangements, I was left with an interesting predicament.

Who did I want to stay with? A friend of mine, who happens to be a girl and has helped me greatly through my transition and life in general.

Could I stay with her? No, because I wasn't biologically the same gender as her.
Could I stay with the boys, like last year? No, because I'm a girl.
Could I stay with the mentors maybe? No, because I'm under 18.

So what was left? Well, staying in a room on my own. For 5 nights, in a 2 person room all to myself.

I had a chat with people from the higher up administration and legal departments of our educational institution. In essence, what they told me was:
"You can't change who you are. Just because you don't fit into one of our boxes doesn't mean we're going to force you to."

The Australian department of education's laws defining room arrangements on school trips has a good way of dealing with situations like mine, and I am fairly certain the same system is employed in the US, although you will have to do some research of your own to confirm that. Basically, you can stay with pretty much anyone in your rough age group (i.e. both under 18, or one under 18 and one above 18 if you've known each other closely for more than 2 years) as long as the following conditions are met:

1) All people(s) staying together agree to it
2) All people(s) staying together's parents agree to it
3) Parents agree on the rules that they set out (i.e. no exposure, sleep in different beds, whatever they deem necessary)
4) Students agree to follow these rules and know that if any of them are broken, what the consequences are.
5) None of it is illegal

Ultimately, parents and legal guardians have the final say as long as an agreement is met.

Because of this, I was able to stay with my friend. Everything was fine, we were both happy, and no one was inconvenienced in the slightest.

As soon as you say "well, let's just say it's for liability, they'll understand", you're forcing them to fit into your boxes, which can be extremely damaging to students who don't really fit in the pink or blue boxes, or who desire to fit into the opposite. I'd suggest looking into the actual laws in your country regarding this, because I can promise that if you take the time out to do it, you'll be actively improving the life and confidence of your students, which is what being a mentor is all about.

EDIT: Just to cover all my bases, just remember that this is me sharing my experience. By no means should you take legal advice from me, make sure to do your own research just in case.

indieFan

13-04-2016, 14:17

I perceive myself to be socially awkward in many situations, particularly when it comes to dealing with men. (I'm well over 18.) I am currently working to change this with a therapist.

My question is, has anyone/team ever had a meeting with the entire team and discussed what behaviors a male will engage in and how the females will respond and vice-versa? We laugh at comedies like Two and a Half Men when a character is hitting on someone, but do we ever talk about it and how it actually affects someone? Perhaps this is how we start to break down the "creepiness" factor.

As for personal experience, I was working at my day job and approached by someone. I declined his invitation to do an activity together. Several months later, I was approached again to do another activity. I again declined. This time, I also spoke to my team lead who spoke to my manager. The mere fact that I was uncomfortable with this person and it was two events over a several month period meant that HR got involved. It was not my choice to have HR involved, I just wanted to know how to handle it.

Males and females need to understand there are consequences to every action, regardless if it's the one they want to happen. The only question becomes what the consequences will be.

Philip Arola

13-04-2016, 14:26

The victim should never ever feel ashamed. I know you are not implying that in any scenario, the person receiving unwanted advances should feel like that have done something wrong.

If A made B uncomfortable, its completely acceptable for A to feel shame. It's a great tool for learning when one did something not-good and should avoid doing that in the future.
Perhaps I should be more clear, as you seem to cherry pick my wording.
The responsible person should be held accountable to their actions proportionally. when Amanda posted, she lumped every uncomfortable interaction with the term "seriously disturbing." When I pointed out that shaming a boy who is not good with girls as "seriously disturbing" is a poor exercise of judgement, it seems you took it as no-one should feel shame, period. That is not what I intended.
In case you didn't see my previous post, I had specifically laid out that Sperkowski and I both say that people should be accountable. We also are pointing to the trend of people within this thread equivocating social awkwardness to harassment.

Why are we down-grading creepy behavior to "awkwardness." The original anecdote was "I watched one of my (female) students get sufficiently creeped out by a (male) student's behavior towards her that she was physically hiding from him at the competition."
We did not. Other people (with your presumptive point of view) did this merely a few posts in. How many times must I point this out?

This isn't difficult. If a student is feeling harassed, they should have every right to NOT be harassed and the awkward flirting should stop.
Correct. We have been saying that.

A lot of posters who are getting defensive make me think that they maybe, at one point in time, participated in "creepy" behavior. Insisting that the behavior is question is not "creepy" but instead "awkward" or "misguided," is not helping anyone.
This is a personal attack. Please don't try to discredit me by implying that I am guilty of being a creep.

bduddy

13-04-2016, 14:28

This struggle is real. What worked with us is we told our students that for liability reasons, we're assigning rooms by biology. When it was laid out that way, they were pretty accepting.Maybe the courts in Indiana are different. Here in California this would be recognized as the terrible, regressive, incorrect excuse it is.

Pauline Tasci

13-04-2016, 14:33

Taylor

13-04-2016, 14:39

Maybe the courts in Indiana are different. Here in California this would be recognized as the terrible, regressive, incorrect excuse it is.

You are correct in every way.

jweston

13-04-2016, 14:43

One of the things that makes this so difficult is one person's awkward flirting is another's persistent harassment.

This isn't difficult. If a student is feeling harassed, they should have every right to NOT be harassed and the awkward flirting should stop.

Absolutely correct. To clarify, the "this" that's so difficult I was referring to is having this conversation about the topic, not whether or not an action constitutes harassment. Determining harassment only becomes a bit murky when girls don't feel free to object to advances in the clearest way possible. That forces the responsibility onto the actor to be absolutely certain that their actions are welcome and appreciated with 100% enthusiasm. The way to fix this is to change our culture so girls feel completely secure to assert themselves whenever and however they want within the same bounds we'd apply to boys.

There's a rightful stigma associated with harassment. The problem is this stigma can make people defensive since 1) they didn't mean any harm and 2) all of us internalize a lot messages throughout our lives that signal on some level that this behavior is ok as long as you didn't mean harm. People often do the things that they shouldn't when they aren't thinking. That includes creeping. Not that intent (or lack thereof) makes those actions ok at all, but it should inform how the person is corrected.

It's really a lot like if you hit my thumb with a hammer. It may have been an accident but that doesn't make it ok. Why you hit my thumb with a hammer matters a lot to how the situation should be handled in order to ensure it doesn't happen again. A girl who has been conditioned to "be nice" (just go along with it) is like one who has been taught to never yell or scream, even when hit with a hammer. It makes it that much harder for the person with the hammer to realize they've made contact.

My goal is to help people learn how to respect boundaries, not to cast them as vicitms or predators. It gets messy because there are cultural values that tell us guys should be praised for romancing girls and girls should be passive. Those values are one of the most harmful things we're all up against.

alicen

13-04-2016, 14:50

Just popped into this, to make a minor note. It's not always the students, and it's not always about physical attraction/flirting or whatever.

In my job in the real world, I am the only woman at my company and have had absolutely zero problems. In my last job, I was the only woman in the engineering department - again with zero problems. On my team in high school I had zero problems with teammates even though I was the only active female.

I had exactly one issue in the entire time I've been involved in FIRST. I had a mentor (he was the teacher sponsor) who chose to harass me and degrade me and my work, telling me that I was causing the team to fail and that I would ruin the team. At the time, we had very few active members and nobody else working on the CAD/mechanical stuff other than me.

I look back on this now and realize I should have brought this to the administration instead of just the other two mentors (non teachers), but I'm also thankful that that's the worst I've experienced when I know other people who have been through much, much worse.

I don't think there's any one thing that will fix/solve the problems that women face in STEM, and I don't believe that things will get better fast. However, with each group of kids that grows up things are getting better and better, so I think that we need to look at the kids that are growing up and learn something about tolerance and equality from them :)

popnbrown

13-04-2016, 15:05

Ok..lots of back and forth. So I’m going to attempt to mediate. It’s evident y’all are discussing two things. Universally agreed “creepy” behavior, and normal “awkward” teenage interactions.
From my perspective (which is biased), JBotAlan raised this thread to discuss “creepy” behavior
People of ChiefDelphi, On one of the teams I have mentored, I watched one of my (female) students get sufficiently creeped out by a (male) student's behavior towards her that she was physically hiding from him at the competition.
To which it was responded:
Lets keep in mind that this is natural
As far as I can tell, he was saying that hormonal boys will act stupidly, and that this is natural.
Those posts, did in effect try to lump in “creepy” behavior with “awkward” teenage interactions, which effectively did trivialize the “Creepy” behavior, eliciting this post:
- trivializing seriously disturbing behavior toward women
I think I agree with Amanda here, although I can see how she was a little aggressive (rightfully so). The two posts above hers kind of de-value the “creepy” behavior that girls say they experience by implying what JBotAlan said may not be creepy. Whether intentional or not, approaching what OP was saying and initially responding with “not all behavior is harassment” as below:
We also are pointing to the trend of people within this thread equivocating social awkwardness to harassment.
is not a good initial response because (again whether intentional or not) you’re effectively saying “between-the-lines” that what OP’s student and other girls/women are saying may not be justifiably “creepy”. That’s not being said point-blank, not written out in words, but jumping on the defense “not all behavior is creepy” implies that.

Katie gives good advice here:
If you want to help women in STEM, start by listening to women in STEM and not arguing against what they say. If a girl says someone creeped her out, don't argue that it wasn't creepy.
There should never have been a discussion of “what is creepy” and “what is not”. We are here looking for solutions to “creepy” behavior. If someone comes to us and says something is a problem for him/her....it's a problem.

Josh Fox

13-04-2016, 15:06

I think the best thing to do would be to treat it no different than if the guy was creeping out another guy. Pull the perpetrator aside and say human xyz does not appreciate such behavior, and there maybe further consequences if it persists. I don't think there is a need to bring discriminatory traits into this. Of course you may also wish to warn the perpetrator that the legal system is heavily stacked against him, if this escalates.

I personally try to avoid all interactions with females, because the legal system is heavily in their favor, even if you are falsely accused.

If this is genuinely how you see the world, I implore you, as kindly and as urgently as is possible, to do some research and read stories of those who have to work within this "stacked system" in an attempt to bring the person who wronged them to justice, give themselves peace of mind, or even just live their lives harassment free.

Sure, ideally we'd only have conversations about not harassing other people regardless of gender, but the facts are such that women are incredibly disproportionately affected as the victims of harassment/DV/SA.

This view is simply untrue at best, and at worst a very dangerous one to hold and pass on to or share with others.

popnbrown

13-04-2016, 15:15

The way to fix this is to change our culture so girls feel completely secure to assert themselves whenever and however they want within the same bounds we'd apply to boys.

You're correct that that is the change we need, but I think your approach is a little mis-guided. I believe the approach should be:

The sooner we stop focusing on teaching girls how to deal with harassment from boys, and start teaching boys not to harass girls, the better. The onus needs to be on the perpetrators of harassment, not the victims.

Girls will feel secure when the environment for them is secure.

Philip Arola

13-04-2016, 15:17

Ok..lots of back and forth. So I’m going to attempt to mediate. It’s evident y’all are discussing two things. Universally agreed “creepy” behavior, and normal “awkward” teenage interactions.
From my perspective (which is biased), JBotAlan raised this thread to discuss “creepy” behavior

To which it was responded:

Those posts, did in effect try to lump in “creepy” behavior with “awkward” teenage interactions, which effectively did trivialize the “Creepy” behavior, eliciting this post:

I think I agree with Amanda here, although I can see how she was a little aggressive (rightfully so). The two posts above hers kind of de-value the “creepy” behavior that girls say they experience by saying what JBotAlan said may not be creepy. Whether intentional or not, approaching what OP was saying and initially responding by saying “not all behavior is harassment” as below:

is not a good initial response because (again whether intentional or not) you’re effectively saying “between-the-lines” that what OP’s student and other girls/women are saying may not be justifiably “creepy”. That’s not being said point-blank, not written out in words, but jumping on the defense “not all behavior is creepy” implies that.
Katie gives good advice here:

There should never have been a discussion of “what is creepy” and “what is not”. We are here looking for solutions to “creepy” behavior.

At this point, I am being forced to defend my and Sperkowski's honor if you will. Rhetoric labeling us as creepy and damaging have been leveled at us personally, so it's increasingly aggravating defending this position.
Which I will lay out again: Girls should report and talk abut behavior that makes them uncomfortable. I've yet to actually have anyone point to me where we said that they should not. Maybe there was an unintentional implication somewhere, but let me reassure you, that is not what either of us meant.

Alyssa

13-04-2016, 15:19

While I am just seeing this thread now, even after just skimming it briefly I am already concerned about a couple specific things.

Firstly, the notion that "boys will be boys" or that it is "natural" for young men to harass young women with the only excuse being "hormones" is completely outdated and in my opinion, disgusting. It only reinforces the mentality that young men cannot act graciously or respectfully and that they have every right to harass young women. On many occasions I've been told by adults in my life, not necessarily in FRC, that the problems I'm experiencing with a "creepy" guy are natural and not their problem because "boys will be boys." It is up to adults, mentors, older students as well as the boys themselves to dispel this notion.

And secondly,

I personally try to avoid all interactions with females, because the legal system is heavily in their favor, even if you are falsely accused.

I won't even go into how poorly backed up this statement is, how sexist, inflammatory and flat out incorrect...I could name 20 cases right now where the exact opposite of what you are saying has happened.

popnbrown

13-04-2016, 15:24

My question is, has anyone/team ever had a meeting with the entire team and discussed what behaviors a male will engage in and how the females will respond and vice-versa? We laugh at comedies like Two and a Half Men when a character is hitting on someone, but do we ever talk about it and how it actually affects someone? Perhaps this is how we start to break down the "creepiness" factor.

No.

We've had discussions as an entire team, on making sure your actions, and words are respectful of others. If you don't know if they like hugging or not, don't hug. We kind of talked a lot more about words but I think our discussion applied equally. This was initiated by me.

I've had smaller group discussions and even one-on-ones regarding that which was generally student initiated, or if I knew about an issue.

popnbrown

13-04-2016, 15:28

At this point, I am being forced to defend my and Sperkowski's honor if you will.

If anyone is in the mood for a slight laugh, this made me chuckle a bit as to its relevance to the theme this year.

I agree that it wasn't appropriate for Katie to imply that.

Which I will lay out again: Girls should report and talk abut behavior that makes them uncomfortable.

You did not not say that (or at least I didn't see it -- too many negatives, I'm trying to say I agree with you).

But the disagreement is what should we do when girls report behavior that makes them uncomfortable which is essentially OP?

Alyssa

13-04-2016, 15:29

Girls should report and talk abut behavior that makes them uncomfortable. .

THIS:

I personally try to avoid all interactions with females, because the legal system is heavily in their favor, even if you are falsely accused.

is exactly why girls do not feel comfortable reporting or talking about behavior that makes them uncomfortable. Women will start speaking up about things that they experience when they feel as if they will be supported when they do so.

Philip Arola

13-04-2016, 15:37

If anyone is in the mood for a slight laugh, this made me chuckle a bit as to its relevance to the theme this year.

I agree that it wasn't appropriate for Katie to imply that.

You did not not say that (or at least I didn't see it -- too many negatives, I'm trying to say I agree with you).

But the disagreement is what should we do when girls report behavior that makes them uncomfortable which is essentially OP?

I said in some mountain of text. I try to bold things like that to make my position unambiguous, but it seems I've failed.

There is no disagreement when girls should report. Always talk about what makes you uncomfortable. Allow a balanced look to be taken at the situation and understandings be made.

popnbrown

13-04-2016, 15:39

....

I think you may have misread my question. What should WE do when girls report "creepy" behavior?

PayneTrain

13-04-2016, 15:40

The way to change a culture is to stop treating the"creeps" as they're just being boys and start treating it like an issue.
Start treating it like harassment, and something that should never be taken lightly.

The worse part of this day and age is that this no longer just happens at competitions, with things like facebook and twitter people add eachother from all over the FIRST community and it's even easier to stalk someone at competition and harass people via messages.

This is harassment, not "boys will be boys."

(with that the same can happen with girls creeping on boys)

preach

I am unaware of inter-team student interactions being something covered in FIRST's YPP. If it is, it is not something that is well published or something I remember having an offer to train on. On 422 (like most teams, I hope and assume) all team members sign a code of conduct (including mentors, but ours is different). Members who slip up in treating people like people and solving issues in a constructive way face remedial action for most first offenses, and at least suspension on a second offense.

Cards on the table, there have been instances where team members have exhibited actions similar to and far more extreme than ones in this thread, and if corrective action did not remedy the issue, they were summarily disappeared.

However, as far as I am aware the tools to help these issues outside of my team are either what I believe to be inadequate or simply nonexistent. It is a serious problem we have been and will continue to looking to solve in a constructive and thorough way in the coming year.

nerdrock101

13-04-2016, 15:43

Which I will lay out again: Girls should report and talk abut behavior that makes them uncomfortable. I've yet to actually have anyone point to me where we said that they should not. Maybe there was an unintentional implication somewhere, but let me reassure you, that is not what either of us meant.

The problem is that when we are having a discussion of events that have been considered harrasment and the usual "boys will be boys" excuse is brought up, or complaints of blurring the line between social awkwardness and harrassment downplays the real problems we're facing. Are there awkward situations in this world related to maturing at that age? Yes. But that's not what we're trying to address. It's like talking about famine and someone chimes in to complain that we're mistaking it with hunger. They are two separate things.

If you keep having conversations about harrasment you've faced sidetracked into "but was it really that bad" all your life, you might understand why more of us don't come forward to talk about it.

Philip Arola

13-04-2016, 15:54

I think you may have misread my question. What should WE do when girls report "creepy" behavior?
Talk to both involved parties and try to understand both points of view. Anything beyond that is impossible to perscribe on a forum.

popnbrown

13-04-2016, 16:08

Anything beyond that is impossible to perscribe on a forum.

I think this is starting to lead us to our disagreement. If a girl reports "creepy" behavior, do you believe it should be treated as "creepy"?

Basel A

13-04-2016, 16:16

I think this is starting to lead us to our disagreement. If a girl reports "creepy" behavior, do you believe it should be treated as "creepy"?

Yes. There's really no two ways about this. It's actually a bit upsetting that you even have to ask. If a student comes to their mentor and says they were made to feel uncomfortable, they shouldn't be second-guessed.

jweston

13-04-2016, 16:17

You're correct that that is the change we need, but I think your approach is a little mis-guided. I believe the approach should be:

The sooner we stop focusing on teaching girls how to deal with harassment from boys, and start teaching boys not to harass girls, the better. The onus needs to be on the perpetrators of harassment, not the victims.
Girls will feel secure when the environment for them is secure.

The environment is just one part of it... or perhaps I'm getting lost in terminology. It truly is not enough to simply make the environment (is that FRC or the world?) a place where girls/women can feel secure. It's a good start to be sure, but it does nothing to undo years of society telling them to not rock the boat. Life gets bumpy sometimes. We want all of our students to feel empowered to meet challenges and conflicts.

Beyond having a secure envinroment, it's also about calling out every time an adult tells a young girl to let someone else do something for her that she could do for herself. It's about watching for the girl who wants to participate but gets shoved out of the way while the teacher/coach/professor/supervisor ignores her. It's about encouraging girls from an early age to be forthcoming and clear about what's on their minds. And when they are, then it's about refraining from criticizing or ostracizing a girl for her stating her mind. It's about not second guessing her when she gives her opinion. It's about not insisting that she constantly prove she deserves to be respected. It's about looking at her with the same basic respect if she were male.

This may sound like it's putting the onus on women. It's not. It's putting the onus on all of us to find ways to not force women into the choice of being true to themselves or living harmoniously with their familes and communities.

I'm not expecting the suggestions above are any kind of solution. That's way above my paygrade.

popnbrown

13-04-2016, 16:25

it's also about calling out every time an adult tells a young girl to let someone else do something for her that she could do for herself.

It's about watching for the girl who wants to participate but gets shoved out of the way while the teacher/coach/professor/supervisor ignores her.

And when they are, then it's about [us] refraining from criticizing or ostracizing a girl for her stating her mind.

It's about encouraging girls from an early age to be forthcoming and clear about what's on their minds.

3 out of 4 examples you give above, the actor is not the girl.

We fix the first 3 (involving the environment - which includes the place, the people, the things she interacts with), the 4th will come.

Philip Arola

13-04-2016, 16:33

I think this is starting to lead us to our disagreement. If a girl reports "creepy" behavior, do you believe it should be treated as "creepy"?
It should be treated neutrally. Neutrally does not mean that you think it is not creepy, and it also does not mean you think it is creepy. Neutrally means that you try to understand both sides. Understand that the offended party feels a particular way, but also try to inform the offender softly. Try to inform the other party of what they were doing wrong without coming down as the hammer of Thor.
Conversely, when someone comes to me because they hate someone beyond redemption because they think the other person is weird, there needs to be room for the offended party to learn. Is that agreed upon?

popnbrown

13-04-2016, 16:53

It should be treated neutrally. Neutrally does not mean that you think it is not creepy, neutrally means that you try to understand both sides.

So this is the cause of our disagreement. Neutral action implies disbelief in that the act was not creepy. Whether you mean it or not. You (a general you, not you specifically) are that girl's mentor, the person who is there to support her, to teach her, to guide her. Not being absolutely supportive of her discomfort is not living up to your role as a mentor. Implication can mean everything

Try to inform the other party of what they were doing wrong without coming down as the hammer of Thor.

I agree with you on this approach, given that this may be offender's first offense. The majority of suggestions have been: talk with the offender, have a aside conversation, don't embarrass them, etc. But this is what we've been discussing how should we approach the other party.

I want to be absolutely sure that we address the first part before we move on. So I'm going to respond with the assumption that we're going to have two discussions at the same time, and that the primary conversation is the one above ^

Conversely, when someone comes to me because they hate someone beyond redemption because they think the other person is weird, there needs to be room for the offended party to learn. Is that agreed upon?

Yes, but only after you absolutely support offended party's claim of "creepiness". It would make you look like an absolute -donkey-, but it's still your role to support the student. I would only teach this lesson after I learnt of it during my disciplining of offending student. While not specifically with claims of "creepy" I have been in this situation, where X accuses Y, but Y really didn't, and then I go to X with "not cool...", and then I go back to Y "i apologize...not cool of X", and X loses a little bit of credibility with me.

bombodail

13-04-2016, 16:53

If this is genuinely how you see the world, I implore you, as kindly and as urgently as is possible, to do some research and read stories of those who have to work within this "stacked system" in an attempt to bring the person who wronged them to justice, give themselves peace of mind, or even just live their lives harassment free.

Sure, ideally we'd only have conversations about not harassing other people regardless of gender, but the facts are such that women are incredibly disproportionately affected as the victims of harassment/DV/SA.

This view is simply untrue at best, and at worst a very dangerous one to hold and pass on to or share with others.

In an ideal world gender would not exist, humans would be manufactured by machines, and their purpose would be to think "outside the box". I have read stories from both sides. Those of alleged victims, and those who have allegedly been falsely accused. I have also done extensive research into studies regarding such topics. I can provide references if needed, however after looking at the raw data of studies, and factoring in other statistics such as likeliness to report harassment, in my opinion the disproportionality is extremely small or non existent in many cases. I should also point out that people who are falsely accused, seem have a much more difficult time bringing the people who wronged them to justice. I am not saying that harassment is not an issue, I am saying that we should strive to prevent all harassment, not just harassment against specific groups of people. I implore you to look at this issue from many different angles, not just the ones you were indoctrinated with .

Until a time where gender does not exist, I believe that we should be striving for true equality. One where factors such as gender, and race have no role in what opportunities we are presented with, rather everything should be based on merit.

Madison

13-04-2016, 16:58

Understand that the offended party feels a particular way, but also try to inform the offender softly. Try to inform the other party of what they were doing wrong without coming down as the hammer of Thor.

Language like this exemplifies why our attitudes about this subject still need work. It minimizes the experience of the victim by portraying it as little more than a feeling and can be construed as condescending. It is also more concerned with how the offender is treated in a way that, by my reading, implies that you don't want to come down too hard on them because the offense wasn't a big deal or, perhaps, the victim is overreacting.

Perhaps you'd do a great job handling a situation like some of those we're alluding to in this conversation; we're not judging you. We're just trying to point out that the language that is used, frequently by men, often places higher importance on the potential consequences to the offender than the victim.

Alyssa

13-04-2016, 17:02

We're just trying to point out that the language that is used, frequently by men, often places higher importance on the potential consequences to the offender than the victim.

This. So much this.

Philip Arola

13-04-2016, 17:02

So this is the cause of our disagreement. Neutral action implies disbelief in that the act was not creepy. Whether you mean it or not. You (a general you, not you specifically) are that girl's mentor, the person who is there to support her, to teach her, to guide her. Not being absolutely supportive of her discomfort is not living up to your role as a mentor. Implication can mean everything
Did I say that there should be disbelief that it was creepy? I said there should be neutrality.
I will phrase it better. Believe that she thought it was creepy, and believe that she wasn't unwarranted in doing thinking so.
Also believe that the offender did not mean to cause offense. Also realize that people come from entirely different backgrounds, and thus, creepy has a different meaning to other people. Lost in conversation here is the fact that castigating someone for behaving differently is one of the best ways to alienate someone from anything.

jweston

13-04-2016, 17:16

3 out of 4 examples you give above, the actor is not the girl.

We fix the first 3 (involving the environment - which includes the place, the people, the things she interacts with), the 4th will come.

Actually my call is for all of us to a) watch for it in ourselves and b) call it out when someone in our lives does something crappy like this. These things are done by ordinary people all of the time, both male and female, by our families, our friends and ourselves. When it crops up, it's subtle and subconscious with plausible deniability but it's there. The most constructive thing each of us can do is examine our own behavior critically. That's the one person each of us can definitely control.

I do not share your confidence that girls will simply feel secure enough to be assertive and direct if you remove other people's crappy behavior, unless you're writing off girls who have already been conditioned to not be. This is something that starts early in life. Removing the cause does not undo the damage. You would not believe the amount of self-censoring that many girls and women go through.

Somehow I feel obliged to clarify that I am a woman who has been in STEM nearly my whole life. I just realized my user profile wouldn't indicate that.

Philip Arola

13-04-2016, 17:26

Perhaps you'd do a great job handling a situation like some of those we're alluding to in this conversation; we're not judging you. We're just trying to point out that the language that is used, frequently by men, often places higher importance on the potential consequences to the offender than the victim.
I don't think this is true (for the most part; there are undoubtedly cases where this is true). However, I have been told that my anecdotes are meaningless in the face of others' anecdotes, so :confused:

MariOlsen

13-04-2016, 17:37

If you want to help women in STEM, start by listening to women in STEM and not arguing against what they say. If a girl says someone creeped her out, don't argue that it wasn't creepy.

If a student is not comfortable taking care of the situation themselves, they have every right to ask a mentor for help. Like Amanda said, "[A mentor would] rather be dragged aside by students 1000 times than have one student feel uncomfortable at an event."

How do we make STEM a better place for women? By supporting women who say "something made me uncomfortable" instead of saying "deal with it." Because saying "deal with it" or making excuses for it, as AmiableVariable pointed out, does not help anybody.

If a person is uncomfortable with another person's actions, ask how you can help correct the situation. Maybe they just want moral support but can deal with the person themselves or maybe they will want someone step in and do the talking. Ask and respect their answer.

The way to fix this is to change our culture so girls feel completely secure to assert themselves whenever and however they want within the same bounds we'd apply to boys.

A girl who has been conditioned to "be nice" (just go along with it) is like one who has been taught to never yell or scream, even when hit with a hammer. It makes it that much harder for the person with the hammer to realize they've made contact..

I do not share your confidence that girls will simply feel secure enough to be assertive and direct if you remove other people's crappy behavior, unless you're writing off girls who have already been conditioned to not be. This is something that starts early in life. Removing the cause does not undo the damage. You would not believe the amount of self-censoring that many girls and women go through.

I completely agree with these whole posts. I also think that it can be important to tell students that *anything* that makes them feel uncomfortable can and should be dealt with, and that it's not mean to ask someone to stop making you uncomfortable. In fact, you're probably doing them a favor as well if they don't realize how their behavior is making others feel.

If someone asked me 5 years ago whether I wanted to have someone talk on my behalf or talk myself to the guy making me feel uncomfortable (this was not in a robotics context, initially), I probably would have said no out of a misguided sense of being nice. I didn't think he was intentionally creeping me out and I ascribed most of my discomfort to the fact that my friends were telling me I ought to feel uncomfortable. It undeniably would have been wrong for someone to talk to him anyway without hearing my thoughts on the issue first, but if someone explained (in the least patronizing way possible) that it would probably help him too I might have been more willing to face the embarrassing/awkward conversation and saved us both years of discomfort.

nerdrock101

13-04-2016, 17:41

Philip Arola

13-04-2016, 17:50

We're (at least I'm) not trying to discount your anecdotes as meaningless. But the sheer number of women who have responded to this thread as well as the numerous women beyond who have stories of people disregarding or downplaying harrasment through improper use of language should indicate that this may be more widespread than you think.
That's the problem with anecdotes right there. There is no reliability and no representation of both sides. Anecdotes only report the side of the person with axe to grind, however justified they are in said axe grinding. Someone who has had good experiences going to authority figures are less likely to express this, because they is no axe to grind.
I also see you've read my posts without context. Earlier, there was a user accusing me of writing the most damaging post she's seen in 15 years on this forum. Another tacitly called me a creep. They used rhetoric far more incendiary than you, so I've had to respond to separate points from the OP.

nerdrock101

13-04-2016, 18:15

That's the problem with anecdotes right there. There is no reliability and no representation of both sides. Anecdotes only report the side of the person with axe to grind, however justified they are in said axe grinding. Someone who has had good experiences going to authority figures are less likely to express this, because they is no axe to grind.
I also see you've read my posts without context. Earlier, there was a user accusing me of writing the most damaging post she's seen in 15 years on this forum. Another tacitly called me a creep. They used rhetoric far more incendiary than you, so I've had to respond to separate points from the OP.

I did read the whole thread and saw what a few had said. I'm sorry that it happened since you're right, it does change how you approach the conversation and make your point.

You are right about anecdotes; it comes back to their definition. The anecdotes I have lived through color my opinions and you, yours. And that's okay and maybe we're meant to disagree about how is best to approach and react to these situations. But I hope you can understand where I'm coming from in my belief that making sure victims feel comfortable coming forward relies on trusting them over harrassers.

Philip Arola

13-04-2016, 18:24

I did read the whole thread and saw what a few had said. I'm sorry that it happened since you're right, it does change how you approach the conversation and make your point.

You are right about anecdotes; it comes back to their definition. The anecdotes I have lived through color my opinions and you, yours. And that's okay and maybe we're meant to disagree about how is best to approach and react to these situations. But I hope you can understand where I'm coming from in my belief that making sure victims feel comfortable coming forward relies on trusting them over harrassers.
Certainly. It seems the whole reason between our disagreement stems from the fact that we've seen different thing happen. I would say that we don't really disagree much on what to do, simply what is happening that is outside our control.
Other people seem to have other issues with me though, but you (and other reasonable posters) are not accountable for that.

AmiableVariable

13-04-2016, 18:24

Did I say that there should be disbelief that it was creepy? I said there should be neutrality.
I will phrase it better. Believe that she thought it was creepy, and believe that she wasn't unwarranted in doing thinking so.
Also believe that the offender did not mean to cause offense. Also realize that people come from entirely different backgrounds, and thus, creepy has a different meaning to other people. Lost in conversation here is the fact that castigating someone for behaving differently is one of the best ways to alienate someone from anything.

Putting aside the fact that the focus of the thread is how to make STEM more welcoming for *women*, not for those with an contextually inappropriate sense of what is creepy: I have yet to see anyone advocate outright castigation. Most of the suggestions have been preemptive education of social expectations, or bluntly pointing out the offense. Will this elicit embarrassment for the offender? Of course it will, regardless of how it is presented- they did something wrong and are being called out for it. It is natural to learn from these things, and intent does nothing to change the outcomes of these actions. This is very different from screaming and yelling at the poor innocent youth who unknowingly crossed some small line.

That's the problem with anecdotes right there. There is no reliability and no representation of both sides. Anecdotes only report the side of the person with axe to grind, however justified they are in said axe grinding.

Again, in the context of this conversation, there does not need to be equal representation of both sides. The OP asked how widespread these issues were, and how to help. All of these stories and anecdotes illustrate what we think the problem is, and what would help us. Just because you have not personally had these experiences does not make them misrepresentation: they are all very relevant to the conversation.

Philip Arola

13-04-2016, 18:32

Putting aside the fact that the focus of the thread is how to make STEM more welcoming for *women*, not for those with an contextually inappropriate sense of what is creepy: I have yet to see anyone advocate outright castigation. Most of the suggestions have been preemptive education of social expectations, or bluntly pointing out the offense. Will this elicit embarrassment for the offender? Of course it will, regardless of how it is presented- they did something wrong and are being called out for it. It is natural to learn from these things, and intent does nothing to change the outcomes of these actions. This is very different from screaming and yelling at the poor innocent youth who unknowingly crossed some small line.

Again, in the context of this conversation, there does not need to be equal representation of both sides. The OP asked how widespread these issues were, and how to help. All of these stories and anecdotes illustrate what we think the problem is, and what would help us. Just because you have not personally had these experiences does not make them misrepresentation: they are all very relevant to the conversation.

That is the problem isn't it? Very rarely do we intend to castigate somebody, and yet, we can overreact. I've done it. Chances are you've done it. We've all done it. What I've tried to explain is that some people have been equivocating harassment with simply being awkward. Not everyone ITT, but some. Those are who I was addressing when saying that we should be careful when embarrassing people, particularly the young who are susceptible to self-esteem issues.

I never said peoples' experiences were invalid, I was saying that it is not perfect. When you represent both sides, you determine how widespread an issue is. The nature of the issue changes depending on perspective. Perspective is crucial.

Vale

13-04-2016, 19:09

Okay, so this post might be long and slightly ill timed.

To answer the OP's question though, as an Asian and cisgender girl without any disabilities (making sure to check my privilege first) within a school with a population that is mostly female, yes. Time and time again, there are micro aggressions and signs of harassment that me and my peers may sometimes feel, inside and outside of FIRST and STEM.

Of course, this is not all of the time, but it happens often enough that, at times, some of us may fear to the point where discerning "regular" flirting from harassment becomes difficult. At any point, if a female student (or any, for that matter) feels or appears to be uncomfortable or not consenting to the interaction, please do step in. The discomfort will linger, and may occupy our minds for years to come.

Even online, the feelings of insecurity through seeing the way that some people respond to real issues does interrupt my feeling of safety. I was hesitating responding to this thread due to some of the other responses to it.

Of course, my reactions and the next person's may vary, but this is often caused by our different filters and the way our identities have been formed by birth and environment. However, that does not make either party's less valid, if we have experienced the fundamentally similar events in different ways.

Thus, for a solution, others may have said this already, but awareness is a key to this. Sure, some people may refuse to change, but knowledge is, in fact, power. Making sure that your members know that preventing harassment and non-consenting situations is work for the approacher, and that it's okay for someone to step in if the victim does not appear in control of the situation. Also, by informing people of potential micro-aggressions they may be performing, they can learn from you to actively prevent these from occurring.

Finally, it's important to make sure that there is an available support system. Members should be able to trust people with their feelings during situations that may be uncomfortable in this manner. I think little things like this help make FIRST and STEM a bit friendlier place.

popnbrown

13-04-2016, 19:22

Re-emphasizing:
Neutral action implies disbelief in that the act was not creepy. Whether you mean it or not. You (a general you, not you specifically) are that girl's mentor, the person who is there to support her, to teach her, to guide her. Not being absolutely supportive of her discomfort is not living up to your role as a mentor. Implication can mean everything

Did I say that there should be disbelief that it was creepy? I said there should be neutrality.

No you did not say that, nor did I say you said that. What I said (and I quoted and emphasized) is that you imply disbelief with neutrality, whether or not it is meant. But what is neutrality:

Believe that she thought it was creepy, and believe that she wasn't unwarranted in doing thinking so.

This I believe is not neutral, you're being pretty much on her side. So thank you for clarifying what you meant by neutral because we had different definitions.

Your approach, your potential solution, is more neutral and one I would take as well. But here's my follow-up question, would you the "offender" consider changing his/her behavior?

Philip Arola

13-04-2016, 19:31

No you did not say that, nor did I say you said that. What I said (and I quoted and emphasized) is that you imply disbelief with neutrality, whether or not it is meant.
I am personally unable to see how neutrality implies disbelief. I guess you might think so, but that is beyond me.

This I believe is not neutral, you're being pretty much on her side. So thank you for clarifying what you meant by neutral because we had different definitions.
I would consider myself on both sides (neutral), considering that I also said that I believe the offender did not intend to make her uncomfortable.

Your approach, your potential solution, is more neutral and one I would take as well. But here's my follow-up question, would you the "offender" consider changing his/her behavior?
Yes, I would want them to change their behavior, if only around that particular person.

AmiableVariable

13-04-2016, 20:19

That is the problem isn't it? Very rarely do we intend to castigate somebody, and yet, we can overreact. I've done it. Chances are you've done it. We've all done it. What I've tried to explain is that some people have been equivocating harassment with simply being awkward. Not everyone ITT, but some. Those are who I was addressing when saying that we should be careful when embarrassing people, particularly the young who are susceptible to self-esteem issues.

I never said peoples' experiences were invalid, I was saying that it is not perfect. When you represent both sides, you determine how widespread an issue is. The nature of the issue changes depending on perspective. Perspective is crucial.

Awkwardness and harassment are two different things. I can be an extremely awkward person- and it is never pleasant to look around and see confused looks. I am defining harassment is when the actions are focused on another person or group and can be perceived as threatening or degrading. What are you using to define the difference between the two?

We may be referring to different degrees of embarrassment as well. What I am trying to refer to is the near inevitable embaressment that results when one is told, however kindly, that they crossed a social line. The only ways to reliably avoid this are to either not cross lines, or to not be informed when you do. I do agree that mentors and authority figures can and often should take the option to not publically shame someone when they try to redirect them, depending on the context. The student being bothered, however does not have this responsibility of extra care, as they already have no choice in getting tangled up in the matter.

popnbrown

13-04-2016, 20:41

I am personally unable to see how neutrality implies disbelief. I guess you might think so, but that is beyond me.

I think it depends on the definition of neutrality. My thought on neutral was you don't believe her, which you said is not your definition. So I think we're on the same page here.

If a student comes and says X is being "creepy", then you and I would both believe the student.

Yes, I would want them to change their behavior, if only around that particular person.

Doesn't ^ this show that you are not neutral in the "offender"'s side. You would request they do change their behavior, stating that the "offender" was not in the correct for that particular situation with that particular person.

Liam Fay

13-04-2016, 20:41

Oh dear, I was hoping this aspect wouldn't cloud the thread, but here goes.

How do you handle room assignments on a field trip to a travel competition when students are openly LBGTQ?
We usually packed 4 students to a room (before districts).
When their sexual orientation would be taken into account, the math became more expensive.

This is a topic that I'm surprised to see very little on in CD. I don't think this is the right thread for it, but it's a topic I'd like to see discussed more, as there is certainly a foggy area when it comes to all things LGBTQ in FIRST - with all of the wonderful advocation for women in STEM and FIRST, LGBTQ people kind of get lost in the process.

Philip Arola

13-04-2016, 21:48

Awkwardness and harassment are two different things. I can be an extremely awkward person- and it is never pleasant to look around and see confused looks. I am defining harassment is when the actions are focused on another person or group and can be perceived as threatening or degrading. What are you using to define the difference between the two?

We may be referring to different degrees of embarrassment as well. What I am trying to refer to is the near inevitable embaressment that results when one is told, however kindly, that they crossed a social line. The only ways to reliably avoid this are to either not cross lines, or to not be informed when you do. I do agree that mentors and authority figures can and often should take the option to not publically shame someone when they try to redirect them, depending on the context. The student being bothered, however does not have this responsibility of extra care, as they already have no choice in getting tangled up in the matter.

I define harassment as repeated and targeted, the way the law does. It is possible to still be creepy and have poor manners, but not harassing. Even if they have not been informed they are making someone uncomfortable by the person in question, you should still advise them that they could be making someone uncomfortable.

What I have been explaining is that one should not be embarrassed for something greater than what they actually did. I have been saying that multiple times now.

Philip Arola

13-04-2016, 21:52

I think it depends on the definition of neutrality. My thought on neutral was you don't believe her, which you said is not your definition. So I think we're on the same page here.

If a student comes and says X is being "creepy", then you and I would both believe the student.

Doesn't ^ this show that you are not neutral in the "offender"'s side. You would request they do change their behavior, stating that the "offender" was not in the correct for that particular situation with that particular person.
My request has nothing to do with whether or not someone was wrong, but rather to avoid future conflict. If someone makes an unreasonable demand that someone change their behavior, it is still advised to act differently, no matter if it is unreasonable and an overreaction. Avoiding conflict you see.
If someone is grossly harassing or offensive, then it becomes a order to stop. I can't do anything myself, but I will bring it to the attention of the head coach.

JesseK

13-04-2016, 22:05

I define harassment as repeated and targeted, the way the law does.

How you define something is irrelevant to how you make someone else feel. Your intent does not matter to that person. How that person feels does matter to that person.

If someone feels creeped out or harassed by you, say you are sorry leave them alone. That's all there is to it.

And by "you" I mean the "guy" role in this thread. I'm guessing I quoted the most glaringly ignorant piece of your entire point, so my bad if this is too far out of context.

Philip Arola

13-04-2016, 22:12

How you define something is irrelevant to how you make someone else feel. Your intent does not matter to that person. How that person feels does matter to that person.

If someone feels creeped out or harassed by you, say you are sorry leave them alone. That's all there is to it.

And by "you" I mean the "guy" role in this thread. I'm guessing I quoted the most glaringly ignorant piece of your entire point, so my bad if this is too far out of context.
You conveniently left out the part where I said that just because it is not harassment does not mean it is a poor thing to do.

JesseK

13-04-2016, 22:15

You conveniently left out the part where I said that just because it is not harassment does not mean it is a poor thing to do.

Because it's irrelevant to my point. The point is, if someone feels harassed then you're harassing them.

Philip Arola

13-04-2016, 22:17

Because it's irrelevant to my point. The point is, if someone feels harassed then you're harassing them.
No. Just because you feel something is true does not make it so. Particularly with a charge of harassment, which is a something that has legislation governing it. You can feel uncomfortable, and ask them to stop. If they persist, this is harassment.

Edit: Apparently someone neglected to read my previous post where I defined harassment as targeted and repeated. They applied negative rep to this post, and commented that harassment can be applied to a single incident. What they neglected to address, intentionally or not, is that I covered that when I said targeted. Targeted means someone specifically targets you.

bdaroz

13-04-2016, 22:51

Philip Arola

13-04-2016, 22:56

I feel like I'm running the risk of touching the third rail getting into this but...

Harassment has two definitions, (a third sometimes if a school is involved), the dictionary and legal definition. A quick google search:

Dictionary (From Google search page):

Legal (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/harassment):

Perhaps this will help you both see each other's arguments from the other's perspective.
The other poster (and the person who neg rep'ed me) don't seem to be using the definition of violence/intimidation, they seem to be talking about any act that makes someone uncomfortable.

bombodail

13-04-2016, 23:02

I feel like I'm running the risk of touching the third rail getting into this but...

Harassment has two definitions, (a third sometimes if a school is involved), the dictionary and legal definition. A quick google search:

Dictionary (From Google search page):

Legal (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/harassment):

Perhaps this will help you both see each other's arguments from the other's perspective.
Considering the fact that people are having a difficult time coming to an understanding on what exactly is harassment, I think the most fair (and probably most impractical) would be to have this taken care of in court. Of course the case should be treated as most other criminal law, where the presumption of innocence is maintained, and where it is the responsibility of the accuser to prove that the defendant is guilty.

GabrielaH

14-04-2016, 00:06

I am a female student, and I can definitely say that my FRC team has boosted my confidence, communication, and passion for engineering. We primarily have male mentors, and only one third of our team identifies as female, but I have rarely felt ignored or belittled. In fact, this team is the reason why I am pursuing a major in Biomedical Engineering this fall. However, it appears that female students on other teams have faced issues, ones we will face in the STEM workforce. And we do not only face sexual harassment, but also disrespect and being disregarded as less capable.

I recommend discussing the issue head-on with the team during preseason. I remember watching the Verizon advertisement about girls in STEM during a meeting, and the brief discussion we had afterwards. The mentors may not have realized it, but it had a profound impact, and showed me that I would be supported on the team, and I wasn't wrong. I also realized that many male students did not understand that females are discouraged from entering STEM, namely engineering. If every FRC student knew about this issue, we could tackle it more effectively now, and in the future.

GDB

14-04-2016, 00:49

Honestly as a team member for Team 2403 Plasma Robotics, our basis of female students have grown along with our male counterparts through all of the outreach and team bonding sessions. With all of this it has allowed us to figure ourselves out better before we make any rash decisions during the rest of the season. Seeing this in action, I see that sometimes we all get awkward or creeped out about someone or something, but that should not deter anyone away from STEM in any way.

I know that much of the women in STEM is weak, but I believe it is growing and it will continue for equality over time. Gender inequality is a shaky topic with some people but we just need to be positive and supportive towards all members, and not bias towards one side or the other. If someone wants to become an engineer, male or female, we need to allow that because in the end that is what they strive for in life!

I keep positive about all of the gender equality progressing and it will continue to get better and better!

JesseK

14-04-2016, 01:15

No. Just because you feel something is true does not make it so. Particularly with a charge of harassment, which is a something that has legislation governing it. You can feel uncomfortable, and ask them to stop. If they persist, this is harassment.

This is so (seemingly) curmudgeonly nit-picky about what something is or isn't, and yet we aren't trying to prosecute students but rather trying to teach them how to act in ways that do not completely offend someone. After some thought I remembered a particular conversation I had with a student a few years ago. There is a more relate-able definition that provides better evidence for why I believe the strict legal definition doesn't matter in most cases.

Take the HR definition of harassment. Depending on the level of innuendo the first offense can easily be a fireable one. Why? Depending on how the person on the receiving end feels it could become a hostile work environment.

The point you seemed to have missed from what Katie and Amanda were saying is that this "first offense" may be the first for the individual guy for a particular girl, but it is not the first for the girl over the course of the competition or career. Thus, in the context of a workplace (which our FRC programs should be) it is harassment since it is a hostile work environment if the girl on the receiving in feels that way.

Philip Arola

14-04-2016, 02:23

This is so (seemingly) curmudgeonly nit-picky about what something is or isn't, and yet we aren't trying to prosecute students but rather trying to teach them how to act in ways that do not completely offend someone. After some thought I remembered a particular conversation I had with a student a few years ago. There is a more relate-able definition that provides better evidence for why I believe the strict legal definition doesn't matter in most cases.

Take the HR definition of harassment. Depending on the level of innuendo the first offense can easily be a fireable one. Why? Depending on how the person on the receiving end feels it could become a hostile work environment.

The point you seemed to have missed from what Katie and Amanda were saying is that this "first offense" may be the first for the individual guy for a particular girl, but it is not the first for the girl over the course of the competition or career. Thus, in the context of a workplace (which our FRC programs should be) it is harassment since it is a hostile work environment if the girl on the receiving in feels that way.

I want to use the term harassment appropriately, and not reduce its meaning by using it indiscriminately.
This "HR definition" you speak of is, ironically for you, the literal embodiment of the curmudgeonly legal definition. The reason a single offense could be firable is if it is targeted harassment. You want to wholly redefine harassment by making it be the sum of what one person experiences, not what one person does. Not even this "HR definition" encapsulates the idea that you have.

Sean Raia

14-04-2016, 10:11

This thread is a nightmare of face-saving and overreacting, especially the statement about avoiding women altogether for legal protection (mentally diusturbed mindset).

Summary of good take-aways:

1. Don't hawk your female students, trying to protect them. Keep an equally watchful eye over all team members.

2. LBGT issues should handled according to state law, as mentioned. No exceptions.

3. If a student reports feeling uncomfortable, address it appropriately. Publicly embarrassing offenders for the sake of a "lesson" is not appropriate.

4. If a student makes another student uncomfortable, address it appropriately ("fool-me-twice" policy works well, one warning and one warning only before serious action is taken)

5. It's relatively easy to spot the difference between consensual flirting and creeping. If you can't, consult another mentor before asking a student if they felt threatened.

6. Inter-team relationships will occur but should not be blatant.

7. Students look out for one-another, don't underestimate the power of simply staying in groups.

Doug Frisk

14-04-2016, 10:38

If someone feels creeped out or harassed by you, say you are sorry leave them alone. That's all there is to it.

While I'm sure you didn't intend it this way, you're requiring the creeper in this instance to be able to read minds.

I would say it's uncommon that the creeper is deliberately attempting to cause discomfort. So it is required by the person feeling harassed to actually make it clear and unambiguous that they don't want that behavior to continue.

It's not fair to say "it should be obvious" because if it is happening, it is probably not obvious to the person causing offense.

JesseK

14-04-2016, 11:47

While I'm sure you didn't intend it this way, you're requiring the creeper in this instance to be able to read minds.

I would say it's uncommon that the creeper is deliberately attempting to cause discomfort. So it is required by the person feeling harassed to actually make it clear and unambiguous that they don't want that behavior to continue.

It's not fair to say "it should be obvious" because if it is happening, it is probably not obvious to the person causing offense.

You're right, and I agree, it has to hit that point for the 'aggressor' to understand in any given random off-the-street scenario. The point I was trying to make there is that the 'line' between 'awkward flirting' and 'harassment' is completely about how the person on the receiving end feels, and that person doesn't need to care about the anecdotes from the other side. That the "law" (with quotes because it varies and is imperfect) states a definition does not mean (IMO) it is an acceptable edict to live by, therefore shouldn't even have come up in this conversation.

There is no definition for the circumstances surrounding 'girl who feels harassed by an entire group of peers because she is constantly hit on one at a time by each individual'. The only definitions which come close are patterns of misogyny, sexism and discrimination. For those particular definitions, all but the extreme cases seem to be 'acceptable' behavior by teenage boys and a few people in this thread.

To me, it should be obvious to an 'aggressor' when they've been forewarned to act professionally in an environment. Whether or not someone was listening or chose to forget shouldn't excuse the individual. FIRST constantly puts out "Gracious Professionalism" and the ensuing words of wisdom, yet IMO it is on the team to teach the kids how to act professionally (I've read this paraphrased sentence so many time on CD...). This thread has repeatedly provided anecdotes which show that the definition of what's acceptable in a professional environment varies greatly from team to team.

I think I'll leave this thread for a bit with some final words. In a professional environment unsolicited flirting is unacceptable, and we should expect the best from our students in this regard. Flirting that 'comes up' between two people who are already acquainted is sometimes inevitable, and is not the scenario anyone is trying to imply when the word 'harassment' comes up.

Philip Arola

14-04-2016, 13:16

You're right, and I agree, it has to hit that point for the 'aggressor' to understand in any given random off-the-street scenario. The point I was trying to make there is that the 'line' between 'awkward flirting' and 'harassment' is completely about how the person on the receiving end feels, and that person doesn't need to care about the anecdotes from the other side. That the "law" (with quotes because it varies and is imperfect) states a definition does not mean (IMO) it is an acceptable edict to live by, therefore shouldn't even have come up in this conversation.

There is no definition for the circumstances surrounding 'girl who feels harassed by an entire group of peers because she is constantly hit on one at a time by each individual'. The only definitions which come close are patterns of misogyny, sexism and discrimination. For those particular definitions, all but the extreme cases seem to be 'acceptable' behavior by teenage boys and a few people in this thread.

To me, it should be obvious to an 'aggressor' when they've been forewarned to act professionally in an environment. Whether or not someone was listening or chose to forget shouldn't excuse the individual. FIRST constantly puts out "Gracious Professionalism" and the ensuing words of wisdom, yet IMO it is on the team to teach the kids how to act professionally (I've read this paraphrased sentence so many time on CD...). This thread has repeatedly provided anecdotes which show that the definition of what's acceptable in a professional environment varies greatly from team to team.

I think I'll leave this thread for a bit with some final words. In a professional environment unsolicited flirting is unacceptable, and we should expect the best from our students in this regard. Flirting that 'comes up' between two people who are already acquainted is sometimes inevitable, and is not the scenario anyone is trying to imply when the word 'harassment' comes up.
This thread has become totally circular, and I have had to explain this exact point countless times.
Continuing to make someone uncomfortable is unacceptable.
No one disagrees with your point, at least not here. You seem to have read my posts in response to the most radical positions expressed, and thought that I was in opposition to the original point.
Here, you seem to address this:
Flirting that 'comes up' between two people who are already acquainted is sometimes inevitable, and is not the scenario anyone is trying to imply when the word 'harassment' comes up.
...but fall short. That may not be what YOU said, but do not pretend that no one here failed to make the distinction.

Karthik

14-04-2016, 14:36

Pauline Tasci

14-04-2016, 15:25

The contents of this thread thus far have been extremely appalling. This thread started off being about how to make women more comfortable in STEM, and this thread is now just some individuals justifying their harassment and "creepy" behavior at competitions, social media, and beyond.

Let me tell you why this thread is important. Let me tell you girls out there who are too scared to say anything why it is important to say something about a man harassing you.

I've been involved in FRC for 6 years and have been recognizable within my generation of FIRST-ers for about the same time.
With this a lot of random people walk up to you at competition and want to talk to you.

I have had so many cases where people came in with intentions that were not just "making friends" and proceeded to make me feel uncomfortable.
At every event I went to my junior year I had this student on another team who kept harassing me for my number after I repeatably told the individual no. This individual continued to harass me for another year, every competition getting more and more physical, everyone I told kept saying "boys will be boys" and "he likes you."
That was NOT okay and should NOT be taken lightly.
Why is it that this society justifies harassment ?

Now that I'm a mentor I still face harassment everyday at competitions and on social media from random people adding me and wanting to get something out of me.
I’ve had 40 year old volunteers harass me at competition all the way down to freshman boys.
I’ve had people in the community send me sexual pictures that were not asked for.

And this is what I want all the young women reading this to know if something similar has happened to you.
TELL SOMEONE. I wish I did much sooner. The only way to change a culture is to do something about it. It’s to have society realize harassment happens a lot.
If you do not feel comfortable talking to your mentor about it, my inbox is always open for a chat.

As a culture, women are rare to be found in STEM, and it doesn’t help that when we pursue our passion we constantly have to deal with men harassing us.

This is not okay.
This needs to be changed.
This thread should of been the start.

Akash Rastogi

14-04-2016, 15:40

It's pretty sad that a thread about "Making STEM a better place for women" has degenerated into some young men repeatedly shouting their own opinion at everyone in an effort to defend their privilege.

I'm out. Shame on me for expecting some nuanced discussion on a very important topic on these forums. Thanks to everyone who tried to make this discussion productive; your efforts are appreciated and noticed.

Some of the people who have posted here have some major growing up to do. I hate making that statement, but I feel like having friends or loved ones who deal with this kind of crap on a daily basis is one of the only ways someone will really understand what harassment can mean and what it does to someone.

My only other additions to my original post: 1) if you are treated in a way you don't like, PLEASE tell someone, keep telling someone until action is taken. 2) mentors and parents-talk to your kids about what professionalism on a team means.

JaneYoung

14-04-2016, 16:55

There is still room for a productive discussion here. Actually, this thread has created an opportunity for several discussions:

- mentors roles as role models
- mentors limitations when dealing with team dynamics
- cultivating a welcoming, safe, and productive environment for everyone
- continuing to keep diversity in focus and at the forefront of STEM goals and initiatives
- never giving in or giving up on an opportunity to help the community grow and develop
- taking a good look at our actions and words and how they impact

I like this thread. It has gotten bogged down but, nothing that can't be fixed.

Jane

IlluminEllen

14-04-2016, 17:10

It is time we drop our opinions, nit-picky definitions, and personal experiences which distract from the problem that is at hand: Women often don't feel comfortable/safe within STEM. If you are not a women in STEM, your opinion on the environment of STEM for women is secondhand. What you think is comfortable/uncomfortable is not relevant to those who are affected. The point of this post is to help better STEM's environment for women. So, I think it's time to refocus on discussing specific solutions.

As I see it, the best place to start culture change is individuals getting actively involved. If you see something that looks uncomfortable, intervene. If someone comes to you and tells you they are uncomfortable or being harassed, intervene. If you aren't sure, intervene. You don't have to make every situation into a serial creep and a terrified victim. Simply point out that the situation looks uncomfortable and help figure out where that discomfort is coming from.

Sometimes all that is necessary is the discomfort to be called out. If this attention doesn't resolve the situation, then you can have a conversation. If the conversation doesn't work, then maybe you need to create a consequence.

Awkward flirting may not be harassment, but it is still uncomfortable, and this discomfort is what the problem is. These instances of discomfort discourage females from wanting to continue to be in STEM. We NEED to call attention these situations to make any progress. No two situations are going to be the same so no two solutions are going to be the same. There is no step by step guide on how to help. If there was, this thread wouldn't exist. Start by doing what you feel is right and intervene when you feel it is necessary. This means intervening even when it seems awkward and uncomfortable for you to do so. The more you do it, and the more comfortable you will become. The more comfortable you become, the better of a position you will be in to fight for this culture change at a higher level.

In conclusion, one of the many solutions to this problem is you. It is every one of you that cared enough to open this thread and read to this point. In order to solve this problem we all need to get out there, start intervening, and become the change we desire.

TheMilkman01

14-04-2016, 17:28

What you think is comfortable/uncomfortable is not relevant to those who are affected.

This. If someone complains that the drive train isn't working, do you ignore them and continue believing there’s nothing wrong with it? No, you address it, test it, and if there is a problem you do your best to fix it. The same is applicable in this situation when a student complains about sexual harassment. The first step in solving a problem is recognizing there is one, as with anything. But don’t go about it like you’re investigating for sexual harassment, for Pete's sakes. Thankfully, most kids and adults in FIRST are above intentionally hurting others. But physically or verbally making another student uncomfortable in any way should not be tolerated after the issue has been brought up. At that point, it becomes an interpersonal problem, one in which has a high potentiality to inflate and blow up. I've seen this happen, where a situation escalates when it could be solved over a cup of coffee and common sense. So please, address it. Don’t ignore it based on your or someone else’s nit-picky definition or technicalities. FIRST is technical, maintaining strong, positive relations is not.

Andy Grady

15-04-2016, 14:54

From a mentor standpoint, I see this as pretty black and white.

I was once socially awkward as a student (I still might be?), it is NEVER an excuse for harassment. It is, quite simply, a matter of showing respect. Period. End of story.

If a student (or young mentor even), male, female, LGBT or otherwise is being made to feel uncomfortable by anyone, they should feel comfortable enough to mention something to a mentor and allow the mentor to handle the situation for them. The definition of uncomfortable, creepy, etc, is very simple...if you FEEL uncomfortable, you are!

It the job of the mentors to provide an environment for our students in which they feel safe and comfortable to come to us when they need any sort of guidance or help.

In terms of mentoring and making STEM a better place for women, this is also a matter of RESPECT. To the mentors: show all students and mentors, regardless of gender, race, religion, etc..., the same amount of respect. Expect the same respect to be given from your students to your other students and mentors.

It might behoove some of you to take note of some of the community members who have expressed some strong concerns over this thread. People like Amanda, Madison, and Karthik are people who have pioneered this program. They do not just speak from a perspective of someone who has jumped into FIRST out of nowhere...they have lived it, they are a product of it, and they have carried FIRST FOR A VERY LONG TIME into what it is today. They each understand the importance of respect, and they each understand what it is like to be on both sides of the spectrum.

In short...if you want to change the culture, be the culture, and heed the word of those who have been changing the culture longer than you can remember.

jweston

17-04-2016, 11:38

I have a small suggestion to consider, although it has nothing directly to do harassment. It has more to do with empowering people...

Whenever you feel compelled to say, "Let me help you with that" or "Let <insert name> help you with that" instead ask "Would you like some help with that?" It might seem like there is no difference but it's actually huge. The former is a command. The latter is an inquiry. With the former, the helpee has to risk confrontation by rejecting the help. The second allows for a polite decline. I've found that the command form of help happens a lot more if the helpee is younger than the helper or is female (extra likely if the helpee is both).

If your offer of help is declined, please do not try persuade or force your help. If your offer of help is accepted, that is not permission to the helper take over the task. It is up to the helper to take their cue from the helpee in how they can be of assistance.

There's a time and place for commands. Commands are great if someone is doing something dangerous or for a delegated team tasks coming from your team organization. Offering help should not come as a command.

The way we talk to each other matters. It affects the patterns we fall into. If you want to make a change, this is a place to start.

erin623

03-05-2016, 18:03

This is super important because personally, robotics can be one of those places where you constantly hear sexist jokes and sometimes don't have other girls to back you up. I've also had a problem with guys poking me or standing way too close to the point where they are physically touching and/or trapping me. It looks like I'm going to be president of the club next year, though, so I plan to talk to the girls about how they can go to any of the older girls/mentors for help if someone is doing this to them. I'm also thinking about talking to the guys, but seeing that I'll only be a junior next year I'm not too sure if they'll listen to me.

Trying to Help

03-05-2016, 21:51

I didn't read all the pages in this discussion but maybe my two cents might help.

Erin, robotics shouldn't be the place where you hear sexist jokes all the time. I think we can all remember the one late night when a student says something like "I have a stripper for each hand!" but the number of times that's happened in my nine years of being involved with a team are less than 5. I can only remember two or three but I'll allow that I've forgotten a couple. The point is, it should be so rare that it is something you remember as an anomaly.

If someone went up to another adult and said "Would it be OK to make sexist remarks to you?", you can bet the answer would be NO. (Excluding edge cases, OK?) People should understand that by doing something, they're effectively asking if it's permissible. Your mentors need to get across to all the students that one, it's important to say No and two, no one should be making other students uncomfortable.

Club or team rules should make this clear. And there should be clearly delineated consequences for failing to follow the rules.

I'm glad that I found this thread. I think it's going to be important to reiterate to our students all those rules. And then when we bring in new students, go over them again. When mentors and students are running on five or six hours of sleep for days during a competition, it might be easy to let some details slide. And the details around what's permissible can't be the ones that get dropped.

Brighid