pinning being called consistently?

[Louisiana Jones]

After watching numerous events I've noticed that pinning doesn't seem to be called consistently. One thing I've noticed is that at some regional events pinning seems to be called even when robots don't seem to be pinned. In the following video I noticed that pinning was called immediately when 2907 makes contact with 1540. I've now seen this happen at multiple events and I'm wondering how this will be called at worlds? I'm not sure I agree that this should be called pinning as 1540 clearly wasn't prevented from moving in any way. What does everyone else think?

https://youtu.be/DdYG77EmItc?t=1m52s

[EricH]

Blocking someone on the batter such that they cannot get off is considered pinning, regardless of whether or not they can move.

I'm not sure I'd agree with how early the count started, but it sure got the point across.

[rich2202]

Blocking someone on the batter such that they cannot get off is considered pinning, regardless of whether or not they can move.

I'm not sure I'd agree with how early the count started, but it sure got the point across.

Pin count starts immediately.

[maxnz]

In QF3-1 at 10K Lakes, team 2855 was (somewhat*) pinned in the corner in the opponent's secret passage. Now I can't say for sure that it lasted long enough to be a foul, but they still got the foul on us for being in their secret passage and them touching us. I'm not complaining or anything, because I'm fairly certain that it was legal, but it is just another example of how being in the opponent's secret passage can be risky.


*I say somewhat because we would have encountered a G21 violation if we had tried to leave the corner

[EricH]

Pin count starts immediately.
Immediately on being pinned. WHETHER the team was, in fact, pinned, is rather debatable. Obviously, in that particular ref's judgement, they were.

[Louisiana Jones]

Blocking someone on the batter such that they cannot get off is considered pinning, regardless of whether or not they can move.



Do you really consider 1540 to be blocked on the batter?

This is the excerpt from the game manual that you may be referring to

There is no FIRST Robotics Competition specific definition of pin, so a
general definition applies; “to prevent or stop something from moving.”
As a result, contact is not required for pinning to occur. For example, a
ROBOT parked right behind an opponent that is on the BATTER could
be considered pinning because the dividers on the BATTER and the
parked ROBOT prevent the opponent from moving.

[EricH]

Do you really consider 1540 to be blocked on the batter?

This is the excerpt from the game manual that you may be referring to

There is no FIRST Robotics Competition specific definition of pin, so a
general definition applies; “to prevent or stop something from moving.”
As a result, contact is not required for pinning to occur. For example, a
ROBOT parked right behind an opponent that is on the BATTER could
be considered pinning because the dividers on the BATTER and the
parked ROBOT prevent the opponent from moving.
That is the section. Now, you may want to read the following exchange (from shortly after that post):

Pin count starts immediately.

Immediately on being pinned. WHETHER the team was, in fact, pinned, is rather debatable. Obviously, in that particular ref's judgement, they were.

I won't be making any comment as to whether or not that particular ref's judgement was or was not correct.

[AaronSchmitz]

WHETHER the team was, in fact, pinned, is rather debatable. Obviously, in that particular ref's judgement, they were.

Determining this is of course much easier when you can look into the future 2.5 seconds and see 1540 pull away relatively unimpeded.

Source: am that particular ref

[EricH]

Determining this is of course much easier when you can look into the future 2.5 seconds and see 1540 pull away relatively unimpeded.

Source: am that particular ref
Yep. However, as a ref myself, I saw a number of situations like that that had me very close to signalling the start of a pin count, but within 1 second the situation was not a pin. This is a fluid game.

[Louisiana Jones]

Determining this is of course much easier when you can look into the future 2.5 seconds and see 1540 pull away relatively unimpeded.

Source: am that particular ref

Great to hear it from the source, and yeah hindsight makes it easy to see. I guess what I'm wondering is how refs at different events were told to call pinning? Maybe you can provide some insight Aaron. I'd like to know how it will be called at champs as it can significantly change the way teams play defense, and how we plan on doing so. Will T-bones be called pinning? How do both robot's movement play into the call?

[Fusion_Clint]

For example, a
ROBOT parked right behind an opponent that is on the BATTER could
be considered pinning because the dividers on the BATTER and the
parked ROBOT prevent the opponent from moving.

Look this is pretty settled by this point. Was that pinning, maybe. But the bottom line is that robot had 4 seconds and then it had to let the robot on the batter alone.

This rule is why we felt comfortable being a batter shooter, because we knew that you could only mess with us for 4 seconds, and then we get to shoot. Or we get 5 points anyway in foul points.

[AaronSchmitz]

All statements below are purely my own and should not be construed as representing the views of USFIRST, Washington FIRST Robotics, Pacific Northwest FIRST, Oregon FIRST Robotics, FRC Team 949, or any other entity...

Yep. However, as a ref myself, I saw a number of situations like that that had me very close to signalling the start of a pin count, but within 1 second the situation was not a pin. This is a fluid game.

If that happens it's easy to wave off with no foul as I do here. If you don't start the count until say 3 seconds in (assuming you're going to give the offending robot 5 seconds to get away), it's not fair to the pinned robot since they're now pinned for up to 8 seconds. In this particular case 2907 had also been pinning aggressively (but legally) throughout the event, so I felt very confident starting a count right away.

Again, it's fair to say this call is questionable. If it were a fellow ref, I wouldn't call it wrong either if they started a pin count or didn't. If 2907 were 2' back and to the left so that 1540 can't back away I'd say pinning is definitely the right call and the count should start immediately, but it's so hard to determine field-side -- especially in the heat of the moment.

Great to hear it from the source, and yeah hindsight makes it easy to see. I guess what I'm wondering is how refs at different events were told to call pinning? Maybe you can provide some insight Aaron. I'd like to know how it will be called at champs as it can significantly change the way teams play defense, and how we plan on doing so. Will T-bones be called pinning? How do both robot's movement play into the call?

At PNW DCMP we had an incredibly strong ref crew with an average of ~3 preceding Stronghold events each as ref or head ref so we were probably more capable/confident being strict with fouls than most ref crews. I can't comment on what direction will be given to referees at CMP. I can speculate that defense will be very aggressive at CMP and that since excessive pinning really breaks offense G22 will be strictly enforced.

With regards to T-boning I can't give a general answer, but if the T-boned robot is in contact with some other object and it's motion is stopped or significantly impeded, do you feel this meets the blue box for G22?

With respect to movement, refs aren't psychic. If a robot is simultaneously in contact with an opposing robot and some other object and is not moving, there's a good chance we're going to assume it's not moving because it's pinned. In a batter type scenario, if the pinned robot starts moving within 5 seconds it's most likely going to qualify as "chasing" (see G22) which should cause the pin to be waved off. As a final reminder, pinning continues until the offending robot backs off by 6' for 3 seconds, so once a pin is started any movement by the offending robot within 6' is usually irrelevant.

[EricH]

If that happens it's easy to wave off with no foul as I do here. If you don't start the count until say 3 seconds in (assuming you're going to give the offending robot 5 seconds to get away), it's not fair to the pinned robot since they're now pinned for up to 8 seconds. In this particular case 2907 had also been pinning aggressively (but legally) throughout the event, so I felt very confident starting a count right away.

Again, it's fair to say this call is questionable. If it were a fellow ref, I wouldn't call it wrong either if they started a pin count or didn't. If 2907 were 2' back and to the left so that 1540 can't back away I'd say pinning is definitely the right call and the count should start immediately, but it's so hard to determine field-side -- especially in the heat of the moment. Yep, I agree with you on that. I trust your judgement on that--you were there, I'm not. And I would agree that the pinning robot was playing smart, legal defense--they backed off as soon as they saw the tomahawk.



With regards to T-boning I can't give a general answer, but if the T-boned robot is in contact with some other object and it's motion is stopped or significantly impeded, do you feel this meets the blue box for G22?I did see a ref at an event I was at start to call pinning on a T-bone in open space... With the "victim" moving. Just started, though. Great chance for a zebra discussion...

[rich2202]

Immediately on being pinned. WHETHER the team was, in fact, pinned, is rather debatable. Obviously, in that particular ref's judgement, they were.

If your robot is blocked in the batter, that is a pin. Regardless of whether there is contact. No different than if the robot is blocked into a corner. The purpose of the PIN Foul is to allow robots have the potential to move freely.

"WHETHER the team was, in fact, pinned, " is easily resolved during the PIN count period. By the time you get to "2", it is usually pretty obvious if it is a PIN or not. If not, then the PIN count is waived off, no foul, and the robots are free to continue.

PIN does NOT require intention. The mere fact that the Robot is blocked in (and it is easy to block in a robot in a 3-sided closed area like the Batter) creates the PIN.

[rich2202]

Will T-bones be called pinning? How do both robot's movement play into the call?

IMHO, the issue is where the other robot can go. If the robot can only go forward into a guard rail, and backwards into a defending robot, then that is a pin. If the robot can only move into a "trapped' area (corner), then that is also a PIN.

Here is an interesting case:

1) Robot is scoring a low goal in the goal on the side of the Secret Passage.

2) Defending Robot is sitting 6" away in the Courtyard - between the Castle and the Secret passage.

When Scoring Robot exits the Batter, it is pretty much stuck. If it backs up further to go around the defending robot, it will be in the Secret Passage, and exposed to a foul.

[martin417]

... Will T-bones be called pinning? How do both robot's movement play into the call?

In the past, pinning required contact with a field element like the field border or field objects. Here is an example from 2012:

[G29]
An Alliance may not pin an opponent Robot that is in contact with a Court border, Fender, Barrier or Bridge for more than 5 seconds. A Robot will be considered pinned until the Robots have separated by at least 6 feet. The pinning Robot(s) must then wait for at least 3 seconds before attempting to pin the same Robot again. Pinning is transitory through other objects. Violation: Technical-FoulThis year the blue box states that if the robot cannot move, it is pinned. It is still a bit hazy. For instance, if you are T-boned, and can move in an arc a few feet forward and back, but cannot escape, are you pinned? How much movement is required to not be pinned?

Clarification is needed.

[rich2202]

There is a related concept of "Blockade" where 2 or more robots box another robot into a confined area.

IMHO, if 1 robot boxes another robot into a confined area (can only move back a few feet either way), that is a PIN using the Blockade concept.

Note: Pin is "to prevent or stop something from moving". "moving" has been liberally interpreted not as "unable to move", but more not able to move a material amount.

[Tyler_Kaplan]

Pinning is a little harder to call 100% consistently, both in FRC and VEX. From I've seen, most refs will start the pin count at least a couple seconds late, which can be unfair to the teams being pinned. It's just one of those things where it's hard for the refs to watch everything at once, and start to call it exactly when it happens

[Louisiana Jones]

From I've seen, most refs will start the pin count at least a couple seconds late, which can be unfair to the teams being pinned. It's just one of those things where it's hard for the refs to watch everything at once, and start to call it exactly when it happens

I'm finding that at some regional events it is being called too quickly. I'm just not sure that a robot that is not trying to leave the batter because they are trying to shoot should also get a pinning count started the instant a defensive robot bumps them.

https://youtu.be/UXlU0X1x9Tg?t=1m42s

[rich2202]

I'm just not sure that a robot that is not trying to leave the batter because they are trying to shoot should also get a pinning count started the instant a defensive robot bumps them.


Nothing in the rules require the robot being pinned having to "try" to move. A robot can sit on the batter the entire match. As soon as a robot from the other alliance gets close enough to block it it, the PIN starts.

The PIN rule does not require "intent", unlike other rules that require a "strategy", etc.

[Louisiana Jones]

Nothing in the rules require the robot being pinned having to "try" to move. A robot can sit on the batter the entire match. As soon as a robot from the other alliance gets close enough to block it it, the PIN starts.

The PIN rule does not require "intent", unlike other rules that require a "strategy", etc.

There is nothing in the rules that says the pin has to start as soon as the robot gets close enough to block it either. The rule says: For example, a
ROBOT parked right behind an opponent that is on the BATTER could
be considered pinning because the dividers on the BATTER and the
parked ROBOT prevent the opponent from moving.

I think the key word is could. The rules leave it open to interpretation whether it should be called a pin or not. If the ref thinks that the position prevents the opponent from moving it should be a pin. I'm seeing alot of examples where it seems the refs are assuming even the slightest contact has trapped the robot against the batter, even when the robot isn't even trying to escape the batter.

[EricH]

If your robot is blocked in the batter, that is a pin. Regardless of whether there is contact. No different than if the robot is blocked into a corner. The purpose of the PIN Foul is to allow robots have the potential to move freely.

"WHETHER the team was, in fact, pinned, " is easily resolved during the PIN count period. By the time you get to "2", it is usually pretty obvious if it is a PIN or not. If not, then the PIN count is waived off, no foul, and the robots are free to continue.
I will try to explain my point of view here, as simply as I can.

The team was free to move off of the batter, at any time they felt like (and did by going along the side of the defending robot with minimal turning). There was no robot actually blocking them into the batter (looking at the video). Therefore, in this specific situation, you can make a really good case that there wasn't pinning. Why? Because they were not blocked in. No pin. That's my point of view. If it is unclear, then I will be forced to go to the Thing Explainer dictionary.

Was there a robot playing defense? Yes. Was there a robot pinning? Me looking at the video, and the ref right there looking at it, saw it differently. We both wear the stripes (though not at the same event). You see? Whether the pin actually started is up for debate, and when is up for debate. (It's not inconceivable that it actually started a second or so earlier.) It was called at the event as a pin that was started and ended after 2 seconds.

[rich2202]

The team was free to move off of the batter, at any time they felt like (and did by going along the side of the defending robot with minimal turning).

Are we looking at the same video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXlU0X1x9Tg&feature=youtu.be&t=1m42s

330 did not move off until after 5845 moved and the pin count was over.

5845 made contact with 330 at 1:46 in the video. Immediately thereafter, the Ref started the Pin Count, at which point 5845 made contact again with 330. 5845 then backed off, but it did not back off 6', so the Ref continued the count. When 5845 finally separated by 6', the Ref then waived off the Pin.

During the first 2 bumps (and an almost 3rd bump), 330 was not "free to move off the batter". After the bumps, 330 could have moved, but 5845 had to move back by 6' in order to have the pin count called off. Once the pin starts, it is not merely giving the other robot room to move, you have to give it 6' of room to move.

[Boltman]

"To prevent or stop something from moving" = PIN

More than 5 seconds then it should be called. The bot does not have to be touching anything to be considered pinned.

And yes every ref will call it the way they interpret this guideline from the actual game manual.

[EricH]

Are we looking at the same video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXlU0X1x9Tg&feature=youtu.be&t=1m42s



No, we aren't. I was looking at the originally posted PNW video, which is where I made the statement that you disagreed with. The video you link wasn't brought up until 9 hours or so after the post I was directly responding to.

If you want to use that video, be advised that you can see me in there, and yes I was looking that way (though I wasn't signalling pin, I had other responsibilities that match). So you may want to use a different one.



Just to be picky, you don't have to give them 6' of room if they start chasing you.

[Boltman]

Are we looking at the same video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXlU0X1x9Tg&feature=youtu.be&t=1m42s

330 did not move off until after 5845 moved and the pin count was over.

5845 made contact with 330 at 1:46 in the video. Immediately thereafter, the Ref started the Pin Count, at which point 5845 made contact again with 330. 5845 then backed off, but it did not back off 6', so the Ref continued the count. When 5845 finally separated by 6', the Ref then waived off the Pin.

During the first 2 bumps (and an almost 3rd bump), 330 was not "free to move off the batter". After the bumps, 330 could have moved, but 5845 had to move back by 6' in order to have the pin count called off. Once the pin starts, it is not merely giving the other robot room to move, you have to give it 6' of room to move.

330 would have stayed there to shoot that high goal its not like they would have backed up at that point anyhow (thus not pinned as 330 chose to stop) and if you watch the video they were more concerned with lining up the HG shot which they missed then immediately exited...I do not see that as a "pin" at all and blue had every right to try to disrupt that shot as they did by contacting 330 to try to knock off their shot. 330 moved when they wanted to freely after. Calling a pin foul there was not warranted IMO and looks as if the refs called it correctly.

I saw a similar play where the bot had every opportunity to move but chose to stay put to make a HG shot... if a bot chooses to stay put how can a pin ever be called? Since the definition states the offender "prevents or stops" not the bot who is deciding to stop.

For me a pin count would start IF the bot being pinned seems stopped against their will and cannot move due to the direct actions of another bot. Otherwise I would not call pin IF the bot chose to stop and was not trying to go anywhere. I would not call a bump a pin either to try to knock off a shot. If a bot is attempting a shot at the HG great ..that does not give then immunity from contact or pin protection. IMO

[Anupam Goli]

"To prevent or stop something from moving" = PIN

More than 5 seconds then it should be called. The bot does not have to be touching anything to be considered pinned.

And yes every ref will call it the way they interpret this guideline from the actual game manual.

I don't think the robot doing the "pinning" in this case should be penalized because the "pinned" team doesn't have the driver skill to get out of a tbone.

[AaronSchmitz]

330 would have stayed there to shoot that high goal its not like they would have backed up at that point anyhow (thus not pinned as 330 chose to stop) and if you watch the video they were more concerned with lining up the HG shot which they missed then immediately exited...I do not see that as a "pin" at all and blue had every right to try to disrupt that shot as they did by contacting 330 to try to knock off their shot. 330 moved when they wanted to freely after. Calling a pin foul there was not warranted IMO and looks as if the refs called it correctly.

I saw a similar play where the bot had every opportunity to move but chose to stay put to make a HG shot... if a bot chooses to stay put how can a pin ever be called? Since the definition states the offender "prevents or stops" not the bot who is deciding to stop.

I would have called this (the second video) the same way as the red headed ref. Preventing a robot from moving does not require that robot attempting to move. 330 is prevented from moving at 1:46 even though they make no attempt to do so.

[jdunston94]

In QF3-1 at 10K Lakes, team 2855 was (somewhat*) pinned in the corner in the opponent's secret passage. Now I can't say for sure that it lasted long enough to be a foul, but they still got the foul on us for being in their secret passage and them touching us. I'm not complaining or anything, because I'm fairly certain that it was legal, but it is just another example of how being in the opponent's secret passage can be risky.


*I say somewhat because we would have encountered a G21 violation if we had tried to leave the corner

even more interesting is in that match the red alliance should have recieved a climb due to contact in the last 20 seconds of the match by the blue defensive robot. While it didn't change the outcome of the match, It couldn't be more obvious that there was a foul there and i am shocked it wasn't called.

[rich2202]

No, we aren't. I was looking at the originally posted PNW video, which is where I made the statement that you disagreed with. The video you link wasn't brought up until 9 hours or so after the post I was directly responding to.

Ok. My post #23 was in response to your post #21, which quoted my response #20, which quote your response #19 that had the video link. I presumed your response #19 was commenting on your video link, not the original video link.

With respect to the original video link (post #1), I can understand "why" the Ref started the Pin Count. I can also understand "why" other people may disagree.

What I think the Ref saw was that Red may have been in contact with Blue in such a way that prevented blue from moving (I believe some people call it a t-bone pin). In fact, there was an angle where Red momentarily contacted the corner of the bot (which would have really prevented Blue from moving). Red also stayed in contact with Blue in such a way that, if Red was pushing forward, it could have prevented Blue from moving backwards off the batter: Blue's drive train (from a stopped position) may have not been able to overcome the side force of the Red robot in order to start moving backwards.

I can see how Ref'ing "in real time" it becomes a judgement call whether Blue was somehow prevented from moving, thus a pin. With the benefit of video replay, it is fairly obvious - "no". It just may not be so obvious when you are watching it real time.

IMHO, I think Ref's should error on the side of starting the Pin Count, and figuring it out as they are counting. You can always waive off a Pin Count, you can't go back and retroactively add time to the Pin Count (start the count at 2).

Just like there is the Crossing Rule that gives robots a no-contact zone in the Outer Works to shoot from, robots can also expect to use the pin/batter blue box to be able to aim during a 3 second no-contact period when a robot backs off to avoid a pin foul.