Texas UIL State Championship Qualification Information

[AllenGregoryIV]

Qualification Information for the Texas UIL State Championship has been posted on their website.

http://firstintexas.org/uil/qualification/

Looks like round up will only have 10 spots for teams that have any students who aren't enrolled in a UIL school. I'm interested to see how they go about choosing those teams.

[lynca]

Has anyone calculated the Texas rankings ?

[ahartnet]

I'm hoping someone will,but I'll have time tomorrow to do it if it's not done yet.

[JohnSchneider]

Has anyone calculated the Texas rankings ?

I *think* 118, 148, and 3310 have "perfect event scores" on average in texas (# 1seed, win playoffs). They both won WFFA so they edge us out there, and then when you go down the tiebreakers all the way to "highest match score" 118 beats out 148.

[jee7s]

I *think* 118, 148, and 3310 have "perfect event scores" on average in texas (# 1seed, win playoffs). They both won WFFA so they edge us out there, and then when you go down the tiebreakers all the way to "highest match score" 118 beats out 148.

Please note two things. From the admin manual and the announcement, points are only awarded for Team awards, so WFFA and Deans List don't add 5 points. From the FIRST in Texas announcement, note that the event scores are averaged. That means 148 isn't quite "perfect" since they were not the 1 seed at the end of qualifications in Dallas.

For the record, thebluealliance API feature that calculates District Points for an event works for regionals too.

[s1900ahon]

For the record, thebluealliance API feature that calculates District Points for an event works for regionals too.

The API from TBA doesn't seem to factor in Team Age per Admin Manual section 7.4.1.5.

For example, sending a request for Utah, you'll see this in the middle of the output:
"frc5933": {
"alliance_points": 11,
"total": 53,
"award_points": 8,
"elim_points": 20,
"qual_points": 14
},
But they're rookies and are supposed to get 10 points in their rookie year. I probably missed something obvious.

[Michael Blake]

3481 is a diverse team with a good amount of non-UIL students (private school and home schooled) in addition to our Northside ISD UIL-eligible students.

I guess we're NOT eligible for the potential UIL recognition because we're a _mixed-bag_.

AND I guess we're relegated to one of the ten "wait-list" openings.

Am I the only one who thinks this sucks?

A student is a student--period.

What we're doing here in Texas competition robotics is creating a class-system of first-class teams and second-class teams.

HOW that's _better_ is beyond my ability to comprehend and either my brain is much smaller than the big-brains that put this together or _maybe_ those who did this may be blinded by the supposed BIG team numbers growth this will supposedly spur, and that may happen, but _excluding_ ANY Texas FIRST student from _anything_ as if they're second-class is NOT something we should be doing.

--Michael Blake

[Jon Stratis]

But they're rookies and are supposed to get 10 points in their rookie year. I probably missed something obvious.

calculating total points is different from event points - every team's event point calculation is identical, the rookie bonus is added on at the very end. Otherwise district calculations would give rookies the bonus twice, once for each event.

[itsjustmrb]

Here is what I came up with the data from thebluealliance, this is not an official document of any kind.

20599

The team average was derived from the first 2 Texas events that the teams attended.

[Drakxii]

s1900ahon, team Age is added to overall score not per event.

I am unsure if teams at Texas events get 5 points for a Chairman's/EI/RAS and then bonus points on top of that or just the bonus points. Also I don't know if winning EI or Chairman's twice gives double points, but I gave 2881 the extra points anyways.

Here is the list by the UIL rules, per the assumptions above. Note, this list doesn't take into account tiebreakers or eligibility. Also I may have missed awards outside of Texas.


Rank Team Points
1 118 73.0
1 3310 73.0
3 148 72.0
4 4587 71.0
5 4063 64.0
6 1296 60.0
6 2468 60.0
8 5431 58.5
9 231 57.0
10 3005 56.5
11 1477 53.5
11 2848 53.5
13 5726 52.0
14 624 51.5
15 6171 50.0
16 57 46.0
16 3847 46.0
18 6133 45.5
19 5775 44.0
20 5572 43.0
21 2158 42.3
22 2881 42.0
22 5057 42.0
24 5829 39.0
25 4301 38.0
26 5417 37.5
27 6144 36.0
28 3679 35.0
28 5986 35.0
30 3481 33.5
30 3802 33.5
32 2583 32.0
33 2805 30.0
34 5892 29.0
35 5414 28.5
36 3366 28.0
37 2789 27.0
37 3743 27.0
39 3999 26.5
39 4639 26.5
41 3355 26.0
41 4192 26.0
41 4364 26.0
41 5411 26.0
45 418 25.5
46 4694 25.0
46 5242 25.0
48 2587 24.0
48 2882 24.0
48 3676 24.0
48 5981 24.0
48 6196 24.0
53 3735 23.3
54 6155 23.0
55 5754 22.0
55 6111 22.0
55 6126 22.0
55 6235 22.0
59 5427 21.0
59 5771 21.0
59 5866 21.0
59 5923 21.0
59 6172 21.0
64 5416 20.0
64 5639 20.0
64 6051 20.0
67 704 19.0
67 1745 19.0
67 5888 19.0
70 5894 18.0
71 647 17.0
71 5682 17.0
71 5739 17.0
71 5908 17.0
71 5960 17.0
76 457 16.0
76 1255 16.0
76 4076 16.0
76 6180 16.0
80 3741 15.0
81 2613 14.0
81 2969 14.0
81 3103 14.0
81 5503 14.0
81 5681 14.0
86 4332 13.0
86 5103 13.0
88 1642 12.0
88 2721 12.0
88 2950 12.0
88 3545 12.0
88 4295 12.0
88 4298 12.0
88 4610 12.0
88 4734 12.0
88 5052 12.0
97 3305 11.0
97 3345 11.0
97 3561 11.0
97 4155 11.0
97 5212 11.0
102 3335 10.5
102 4300 10.5
104 3029 10.0
104 3035 10.0
104 3240 10.0
104 5241 10.0
108 441 9.0
108 653 9.0
108 3043 9.0
108 3728 9.0
108 5070 9.0
108 5261 9.0
114 2582 8.0
114 3350 8.0
114 4219 8.0
114 4328 8.0
114 4570 8.0
114 5566 8.0
120 4641 7.5
121 2585 7.0
121 3282 7.0
121 3370 7.0
121 4696 7.0
125 1817 6.5
126 2897 6.0
126 3700 6.0
126 4378 6.0
126 4412 6.0
126 4799 6.0
126 4852 6.0
132 2966 5.0
132 3997 5.0
132 4717 5.0
132 5047 5.0
136 3037 4.0
136 3417 4.0
136 3834 4.0
136 4206 4.0
140 4597 3.0

[Michael Blake]

Here is what I came up with the data from thebluealliance, this is not an official document of any kind.

You can remove 3481 from the listing as per...

"32 UIL eligible FIRST Robotics Competition teams will qualify based on their performance at all their FIRST Regional competitions in Texas (See Qualification section below). An additional 10 spots will be reserved and allocated by the event planning committee. In total, 42 FIRST Robotics Competition teams will compete at this event."

Since we're NOT "UIL eligible" because of our mixed-bag of public-private-home school students we can only hope and pray we get one of those coveted 10 spots reserved for the newly created structure of second-class student teams.

--Michael Blake

[AllenGregoryIV]

I think it would be reasonable for us to collect the list of teams who have any non-UIL students on them.

I know 3847, 3481, 5829, & 3103 all have non-UIL students, which other teams fall into this category?

[Michael Blake]

I think it would be reasonable for us to collect the list of teams who have any non-UIL students on them.

I know 3847, 3481, 5829, & 3103 all have non-UIL students, which other teams fall into this category?

Add 3997 Screaming Chickens here in San Antonio.

--Michael Blake

[lynca]

Looking at the Texas District Rankings really highlights why Texas Districts need to happen.

Great teams like 624 and 2158 likely would qualify for championship if the district model was in place.

[Michael Blake]

Looking at the Texas District Rankings really highlights why Texas Districts need to happen.

Great teams like 624 and 2158 likely would qualify for championship if the district model was in place.

AGREED, Andrew... DISTRICT MODEL _next_ year!!

Let's just get there for crying out loud... pick a date and execute it.

And let's move away from this tiered eligibility list for TRR or _anything_ FIRST competition robotics related that involves _exclusion_ of private and home school students--it's just NOT right.

--Michael Blake

[JohnSchneider]

AGREED, Andrew... DISTRICT MODEL _next_ year!!

Let's just get there for crying out loud... pick a date and execute it.

And let's move away from this tiered eligibility list for TRR or _anything_ FIRST competition robotics related that involves _exclusion_ of private and home school students--it's just NOT right.

--Michael Blake

I think the real problem is that for the last 5-6 years, TRR has served as the "state championship" for Texas. Its the flagship of Texas offseason. And rather than create another event for UIL as they probably should have, they just decided to take over TRR and use its recognition and systems to serve as the "UIL state championship". They're sort of corrupting something that was special to many Texas Teams.

But they took it a step further with allowing non UIL teams into the UIL event. Now you've created tension where good non-UIL teams might not get in. It seems they want to have their cake and eat it too with not recognizing non-UIL teams, but also wanting them to come play.

I don't think either its a huge deal though. As long as TRR selects its "wait list slots" SOLEY based on the next teams in district ranking, the teams that will be at the event are the same regardless of whether or not they are UIL. If TRR were not to follow that protocol is when people would start being justified in being upset.

I think the recognition of UIL teams that may not have won TRR as "State champs" will be the most awkward thing ever, if/when it happens.

[AllenGregoryIV]

I don't think either its a huge deal though. As long as TRR selects its "wait list slots" SOLEY based on the next teams in district ranking, the teams that will be at the event are the same regardless of whether or not they are UIL. If TRR were not to follow that protocol is when people would start being justified in being upset.


Assuming there aren't more than 10 teams in the top 42 that have non-UIL students on their teams. I'm hopeful that this is case and no one who deserves a spot gets left out.

[Coach Norm]

Chairman's, Engineering Inspiration and Rookie All Star are added for an event no matter location. All other team awards are added for only Texas Events in the event score.

UIL Championships will still be in place after Districts are implemented. UIL wants to name a Texas State Champion based on UIL designated teams.

It will be interesting to see if UIL Championships is in conjunction going forward after this year. I believe a contest in May like Minnesota, Arizona and Misourri. was discussed when the conversation started about a UIL Championship

[Michael Blake]

It will be interesting to see if UIL Championships is in conjunction going forward after this year. I believe a contest in May like Minnesota, Arizona and Misourri. was discussed when the conversation started about a UIL Championship

Yeah, but Norman, it will get _really_ awkward when teams like 3481 Bronc Botz (mixed-bag) and 3997 Screaming Chickens (Boy Scouts) and others get _excluded_ from this May State Championship.

It creates a second-class tier IMO and I know _a lot_ of others, including those with full-UIL eligible teams, agree with me on this because they've told me directly.

--Michael Blake

[Michael Blake]

I think the recognition of UIL teams that may not have won TRR as "State champs" will be the most awkward thing ever, if/when it happens.

THAT will be something to witness IF it happens...

--Michael Blake

[Cash4587]

I think it would be reasonable for us to collect the list of teams who have any non-UIL students on them.

I know 3847, 3481, 5829, & 3103 all have non-UIL students, which other teams fall into this category?

4587 is not a "UIL Team" if the requirements are kept at this. We have a few home schooled students that put us into this category. I really dislike their definition of a UIL eligible team.

[Michael Blake]

4587 is not a "UIL Team" if the requirements are kept at this. We have a few home schooled students that put us into this category. I really dislike their definition of a UIL eligible team.

AND... the list _grows_ with another top-team...

--Michael Blake

[lynca]

The topic of UIL eligible teams has been belabored.
UIL is not going to change their process and robotics teams have better things to discuss.

[Abhishek R]

I think the real problem is that for the last 5-6 years, TRR has served as the "state championship" for Texas. Its the flagship of Texas offseason. And rather than create another event for UIL as they probably should have, they just decided to take over TRR and use its recognition and systems to serve as the "UIL state championship". They're sort of corrupting something that was special to many Texas Teams.

It creates a second-class tier IMO and I know _a lot_ of others, including those with full-UIL eligible teams, agree with me on this because they've told me directly.

I agree with these sentiments whole-heartedly. TRR is a great offseason event, and I would hate to see these "tiers" fall into place here in Texas. The last thing we need is for that mentality to propagate into the regular season and create a divide between what I see as a big Texas family.

[Michael Blake]

The topic of UIL eligible teams has been belabored.
UIL is not going to change their process and robotics teams have better things to discuss.

Respectfully, DISAGREE.

I don't want to share details here on CD but this UIL structure has up-ended _my plans_ for 3481 a team that I birthed and have kept going by willing-it-to-exist for 6 seasons.

Andrew, I don't know where you're coming from on your statement but it feels dismissive and I know you're NOT like that... ;-)

--Michael

[Mr.Frishman]

3999(Shadetree Robotics) is not UIL eligible. We knew this when we started the team in 2012. Our sole purpose for existing is to allow students from ANY school to participate in FIRST Robotics. Our exclusion from the UIL State Championship does not in any way diminish what what we are trying to accomplish. I sit on the Steering Committee for TRR and will continue to do so. 3999 will go through the same process to apply for an invitation to TRR that everyone else will go through. It is possible we will not get an invitation. The decision to make the UIL Championship part of TRR this year is something we will have to live and work with. Rant Over.

[Michael Blake]

The decision to make the UIL Championship part of TRR this year is something we will have to live and work with.

I don't know... this feels like a go-along-to-get-along approach... but I _respect_ your opinion and _respect_ your team and the things you guys do.

Do you agree that the UIL definition/rules creates TWO classes of FIRST students in Texas... one that enjoys MORE benefit than the other?

--Michael Blake

[jee7s]

As most of or all of you know, I'm the TRR Competition Coordinator. That means that I sit on the planning commitee like Leigh and others and it means that I'm responsible for making sure that the FRC robot-related parts of the event run smoothly.

Let me be clear that there are things we as the planning committee and volunteers who manage and run the event can and cannot do.

Firstly, it is my understanding that this is the one and the only year that TRR and UIL will happen to be at the same event. Personally speaking, I'm not thrilled about this, but it is a decision that was made well before I even started considering TRR 2016. After this year, TRR goes back to being the event you've seen in past years. The future UIL State Championship will happen some time in May, and only UIL eligible teams will be invited to that.

We cannot change UIL's definition of a UIL team. UIL is an organization separate from TRR. We can't tell them how to do their business. Also, bear in mind that the definition published for this pilot year may not be the definition used in future years. That definition may be more strict by, let's say, not allowing multiple UIL schools to be on an FRC team together.

For me, the registration distribution is a given going into the event planning. I cannot change it. But, I and the other planning committee members can do the best we can with the situation.

We also cannot change the event capacity. 42 teams is the maximum we can safely fit into the venue space available to us.

As mentioned on the FAQ and in the e-mail there will be an application process for the 10 non-UIL slots. Please consider that the committee who will decide who is admitted to these spots are likely to be volunteers. Appreciate the difficult decisions they will have to make as they review the applications. Respect the time and effort they will put into the review.

I know I speak for everyone involved with TRR that we plan to make this event the best it can be. I understand there are frustrations regarding some changes, but all of us have it on good authority that the changes will be for this year only. I am looking forward to a successful competition in July.

Very Respectfully Yours,
Jeff Erickson

[itsjustmrb]

Do you agree that the UIL definition/rules creates TWO classes of FIRST students in Texas... one that enjoys MORE benefit than the other?

--Michael Blake

Mr. Blake,
I respect everything you do and have done to make 3481 such a respectable robotics program. It is very hard for me to answer your question without asking a question myself.
Do you think it is advantageous to have students from multiple non-uil, private (homeschoolers are considered private schools in Texas) schools on your team?
I do not know the answer to this since our district prohibits non district students from participating in our robotics program.

[Jrizo]

It makes me extremely sad that we will not be able to attend TRR this year.
Do you think it is advantageous to have students from multiple non-uil, private (homeschoolers are considered private schools in Texas) schools on your team?
Mr.B to answer your qustion from our team standpoint. We provide an opportunity to girls that do not have the opportunity to be on an FRC team. It has never actually been an advantage for us in. IMO if anything not being attached to a school it is actually harder.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Mr. Blake,
I respect everything you do and have done to make 3481 such a respectable robotics program. It is very hard for me to answer your question without asking a question myself.
Do you think it is advantageous to have students from multiple non-uil, private (homeschoolers are considered private schools in Texas) schools on your team?
I do not know the answer to this since our district prohibits non district students from participating in our robotics program.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. I think Micheal's goal is to make sure we are are being as inclusive as possible. Spectrum is in an interesting situation, say for instance we don't get one of those 10 invites. In theory I could remove all my St. Agnes Academy girls from the roster and then I would meet the definition of a UIL teams since only my boys who attend a UIL school would be "on the team". I could then add back the girls on to roster the day after the event. That clearly is a stupid thing to do (and I would never do it) but the rules don't seem to disallow it. It seems to me if anyone wants to be a "UIL school" they just remove everyone form the roster but the 3-4 students needed for drive team and make sure they are UIL students and everyone is good to go for that day. The current rules need to be far more detailed about what it means to be a student on a team, when that roster needs to exist, what non-roster students are allowed to do at an event, if they are going to hold up this ruling.

[wireties]

My instinct is to be inclusive to greatest extent possible. But I'll point out one not oft-mentioned fact. Being a UIL program (if one considers that a positive) comes with some onerous UIL rules (about time per student per week etc) that non-UIL teams do not have to consider. It is non-trivial to mix the two categories of teams but I hope they do...

[Michael Blake]

Mr. Blake,
I respect everything you do and have done to make 3481 such a respectable robotics program. It is very hard for me to answer your question without asking a question myself.
Do you think it is advantageous to have students from multiple non-uil, private (homeschoolers are considered private schools in Texas) schools on your team?
I do not know the answer to this since our district prohibits non district students from participating in our robotics program.

It's not a question, for me, of "advantageous" or not, since we've had top students of equal contribution from all 3 buckets (public/private/home) over the years and I would expect that to continue.

What it's about is being _cruel_ IMO to private/home school teenagers.

I'll explain... EVERY private/home school student that has been on our team sought us out and explained how much they loved and wanted to do FRC and _asked_ if they could join our team since there would be no other alternative within their area for them to participate in FRC.

IF it's about the teenagers, the kids, IMO it's _cruel_ to turn them away from something where they're hungry and deserving to participate knowing that they'll have _no other_ way to be on an FRC team--that's the way I see it.

--Michael Blake

[lynca]

It makes me extremely sad that we will not be able to attend TRR this year.

Many teams will not be invited to TRR this year.
There are more Texas Offseason competitions

1. TRI - Houston
2. Robot Remix - Woodlands
3. Robot Reboot - Fort Worth
4. Red Stick Rumble - Louisiana

Sign up for as many off-seasons as you can, every event makes your team better.

[AllenGregoryIV]

My instinct is to be inclusive to greatest extent possible. But I'll point out one not oft-mentioned fact. Being a UIL program (if one considers that a positive) comes with some onerous UIL rules (about time per student per week etc) that non-UIL teams do not have to consider. It is non-trivial to mix the two categories of teams but I hope they do...

It's my understanding that the rules you speak of are not UIL rules but our Texas State Board of Education rules that should (in theory) by followed by all students in the state participating in extra curricular activities. Please provide any evidence to the contrary if you have it, I've been asked about this a lot.

[AllenGregoryIV]

3. Robot Reboot - Fort Worth



I've been told Reboot isn't happening this year by 4206. If anyone hears different please post about it.

[Mr.Frishman]

Mr. Blake-
To answer your question I dont really see how this creates two tiers. 3999 doesnt get any money from our school districts, so no money from UIL would be no different. To me this would be like having an All Star team that could compete in the All Star Game, but could not become the World Series Champions. If the stated mission of your team is to be a place where any student could be a part of the team than you have to be able to accept that you cannot compete in UIL.
Simply put, we know we cant compete in UIL and honestly dont care as long as we can still be full members of the FRC Community. I will repeat this: We will be going through the selection process just everyone else. If it results in 3999 not receiving an invitation to TRR then so be it. We will not try to be part of UIL or fight the things we know we cannot change.

[itsjustmrb]

Allen,

I am not trying to get at anything.

I am just curious to know, if there are really two classes of FIRST students, does the team with private school or non UIL students have more or less benefits than a UIL school.

Is the complication of the UIL Robotics rules worth the hassle of recruiting students not in our high school?

From the limited amount of information I have, I am not sure the UIL schools are the one with more benefits, other than in a UIL on competition, which FIRST is not.

I do not intend for my question to be taken out of context and start a problem that is not there. I will no longer be posting on this thread, if anyone would like to discuss this further, please send me a pm.

[Jrizo]

Many teams will not be invited to TRR this year.
There are more Texas Offseason competitions

1. TRI - Houston
2. Robot Remix - Woodlands
3. Robot Reboot - Fort Worth
4. Red Stick Rumble - Louisiana

Sign up for as many off-seasons as you can, every event makes your team better.

All of these require an overnight stay for our team TRR is a short drive from Waco

[Mr.Frishman]

Joe-
What is precluding The Metallic Clouds from applying for one of the slots? This is only a temporary thing for this year. 10 teams like ours will be at the event.
-Leigh

[Michael Blake]

I do not intend for my question to be taken out of context and start a problem that is not there. I will no longer be posting on this thread, if anyone would like to discuss this further, please send me a pm.

Don't stop posting here, please... we're ALL friendly here... ;-)

--Michael Blake

[Michael Blake]

Is the complication of the UIL Robotics rules worth the hassle of recruiting students not in our high school?

WHO recruits?! Private/home schoolers find us and approach us to join our team year-after-year.

THAT now stops for 3481 as instructed by our UIL certified public school district which is their prerogative--but I don't have to be happy about it even though I love our school and they've been super-supportive in most everything else.

Starting next season, I have to now turn-away hungry to contribute in FRC and deserving private/home school teenagers who will have no other reasonable way of being on an FRC team if they cannot be on ours.

--Michael Blake

[jee7s]

WHO recruits?! Private/home schoolers find us and approach us to join our team year-after-year.

THAT now stops for 3481 as instructed by UIL certified Northside ISD which is their prerogative--but I don't have to be happy about it.

Starting next season, I have to now turn-away hungry to contribute in FRC and deserving teenagers who will have no other reasonable way of being on an FRC team if they cannot be on ours.

--Michael Blake

Michael, this sounds like your frustration is not with anyone on this forum, any FRC team, any FRC volunteer, or even FIRST in Texas. If your ISD is instructing you on this policy, then I would suggest you address these complaints to your ISD or to UIL directly. You certainly have contacts in your ISD and there is a UIL contact listed in the announcement distributed by FIRST in Texas.

[Michael Blake]

Michael, this sounds like your frustration is not with anyone on this forum, any FRC team, any FRC volunteer, or even FIRST in Texas. If your ISD is instructing you on this policy, then I would suggest you address these complaints to your ISD or to UIL directly. You certainly have contacts in your ISD and there is a UIL contact listed in the announcement distributed by FIRST in Texas.

OF COURSE my frustration is directly with FIRST-in-Texas.

They DID NOT have to do this deal in this form. I was at the meeting in Austin with FiT and UIL... I didn't see you there, Jeffrey?!

They could've said, IF we can't get a UIL deal that doesn't _exclude_ ANY students then we won't do it.

But, the lure, and there's _always_ the lure, of exploding revenue to FIRST-in-Texas by the expected jump in team numbers from this agreement was the driving factor to doing a deal that results in throwing some students under the bus IMO.

--Michael Blake

[FBHS_Robotics]

I will preface this by saying that I am not affiliated with any FRC team. I am an FTC guy. By their very nature the two have very different issues as it relates to UIL. I understand the discussions that have been going back and forth about mixed teams, non school teams, etc. There is a lot of discussion about the exclusion of home school kids, private school kids, etc. While it might not be "fair" that is how UIL works. In addition to robotics, I am the sponsor for our UIL Computer Science team. If a home school student comes to me and shows a love for learning programming and wants to be a part of the team, I have to tell them no. That's how it works and it won't change.

If TAPPS wanted to start a robotics competition, I doubt they would let the public schools join them. That is how it works. By choosing to be a home school student or a going to a private school, a student gives us their right to compete in events sponsored by organization focused on public schools.

Now with that said, I will transition to the FTC issue I see and I ask for feedback/discussion. In UIL every other team competition, only one team per school is allowed to compete. However, for UIL robotics, there is no limit on how many teams from one school can compete if more than one school meets the requirements. Back to my Comp. Sci. analogy. A CS team is made up of 3 students....If I have students and can make the best 2 CS teams around, I can still only send one to UIL Competitions. Why is robotics being handles differently? If the intent is to promote robotics and increase participation, how is allowing a school to send 5 or 6 teams going to do that. It won't. And before any of my colleagues play the "if you want to go get better card", let me again go to every other UIL event. Multiple teams from one school are not allowed to compete. If a school could field 2 state champion level debate teams, they can't send them. If a school sends multiple teams to invitational and/or practice meets and they win every award, they still can't send them to even a district level event. One team per school is the rule for every other team UIL event. Why should robotics be any different? UIL is using the FTC game for his state event, they should limit participation to one team per school. If a school has 7 or 8 high caliber teams, they can advance through the normal FTC process and go to Worlds. Taking teams that have already advanced to Worlds and saying those are the teams get to compete for the UIL State Championship is, imo, unfair to other UIL schools that have programs and weren't able to advance.

Ok, climbing off of my soapbox for now.

[Michael Blake]

If TAPPS wanted to start a robotics competition, I doubt they would let the public schools join them. That is how it works.

It's my understanding, I'm a transplant from Long Island, TAPPS was formed as a _reaction_ to the exclusionary dogma and territory avarice of UIL Texas.

http://tapps.biz/

--Michael Blake

[Michael Blake]

That is how it works. By choosing to be a home school student or a going to a private school, a student gives us their right to compete in events sponsored by organization focused on public schools.

I just don't understand that statement IF it's about the students.

However, FIRST-in-Texas _did not_ have to do a deal with UIL that has an unimpeachable negative and exclusionary impact on some present and future students.

--Michael Blake

[jessjank.]

Hi All,

I am posting some additional context and thoughts here, but I don't intend to respond to any further posts made to this thread. Please email me if you want to talk off-line.

We knew going forward with Texas Robot Roundup adopting the UIL Robotics State Championship - FIRST Division this season was going to stir up controversy. All big changes do. But after careful weighing, we determined that it was the most adequate option. Not ideal, but adequate to meet our needs.

TRR, for better or worse, "has served as the "state championship" for Texas" as John Schneider has pointed out. When we move to the district model (we're aiming for sooner, not later), we will need a state championship. The partnership with the UIL lead to the more immediate need for a "pilot" state championship, with the obvious restriction to recognizing UIL teams. Rather than running teams ragged with two "state championships" (an unofficial TRR "state championship" and the UIL state championship with just UIL teams), we combined the two and demanded that we would be allowed to have non-UIL teams also compete, but just not receive recognition from UIL.

Texas Robot Roundup is an off-season event. It has never been an official FIRST competition, ever and still is not. Up until this point, we have provided open registration, with some spots reserved, rather than going the IRI invite route and deciding who would be in attendance. That was a choice that the Planning Committee (or myself as the Event Director) was free to change at any time in the past, just as we all are free to dissolve the event at any time. There is no guarantee that TRR would or will exist year to year; it's simply because of the hard work of many awesome volunteers and teams. TRR is never a guarantee for any of your teams.

This year, and for this year only, TRR is going an invitation route, with the caveat that the invitation is based on UIL membership and ranking. Once again, it is still an off-season event. There are other off-season events throughout the state (and in neighboring states) that I enthusiastically encourage your teams to participate in. And there are still at the very least 10 spots that non-UIL teams can apply for, in addition to any spots that UIL eligible teams do not accept by June 1st.

The UIL partnership does not change the way teams compete during the regular season. Moving to the district model where we will have a District/State Championship, the UIL will be allowed to recognize teams there as well, but will not be able to dictate which teams compete. Teams from UIL member schools are not required to be recognized by the UIL; the UIL is not forcing students off your teams. If your administrators are the ones forcing you to meet the UIL requirements, that is an important conversation you need to have with them.

FIRST will NEVER turn away students from competing and FIRST in Texas will continue to do it's best to make sure students are able to participate on a team. If you are suddenly in a position where you are being forced by your administrators to remove kids from your team, it is certainly not what we want to see. But there are a variety of options, including your team helping start another team that is a home for those students. The new team can still work with and be mentored by your team. There are absolutely no restrictions on how teams work with others. They will certainly be funded by FIRST in Texas just like any other team that qualifies for funding. Or, as Leigh mentions below, go independent.

I am sorry that so many people are upset about how Texas Robot Roundup is functioning this summer, but I ask that everyone please take a step back and realize, as I stated above, that TRR is an off-season event. There are far more important things to be upset about. But perhaps I should just rage quit and cancel TRR? ;)

Hang in there, everyone.

[Mr.Frishman]

After multiple conversations with some of the people involved in that decision to go UIL I honestly believe that they made the decision based on what would be good for the majority of the teams in Texas. I have gone to great lengths to explain to my team that UIL will in no way affect what we do in FIRST. We can still participate(and win) in either Regionals or Districts(when we go that route). 3999's history is based on the fact that we did not want to be constrained by our district rules about who could be a member. If your district is going to enforce URL rules and they dont suit you, maybe its time to go independent?

[Michael Blake]

Let me add... NOBODY here is bad guy/gal.

I believe everyone involved has good intentions and are good people--some I really like individually.

I just don't agree with the goals of FIRST-in-Texas and their approaches and their insularity from real team leaders, like myself, who try to get involved with FiT and offer to contribute and to help shape goals and approaches and are rebuffed from getting involved, because we're not in the club, where the rubber hits the road.

Has anyone looked lately at the FIRST-in-Texas board roster? WHERE'S the experienced experts on running FIRST FRC and FTC teams?

ALL accomplished folks on the board, for sure, but _how_ would they know what we teams need and want in Texas competition robotics?

And you can see the actual fruits of this experience gap in the UIL deal as it's now constituted.

--Michael Blake

[FBHS_Robotics]

I just don't understand that statement IF it's about the students.

However, FIRST-in-Texas _did not_ have to do a deal with UIL that has an unimpeachable negative and exclusionary impact on some present and future students.

--Michael Blake

If they wanted to play a role in the creation of a UIL robotics competition, they did. By its very nature UIL is exclusionary..FiT is not in a position to make them change how they function, UIL isn't going to change it's rules for a pilot program.

I understand your position that every student should get to participate. As part of a FRC team, they get to do that through the normal FIRST FRC events. UIL doens't let private or home school students compete in any UIL events. At least those kids your fighting for have an the regular FIRST events.

[FBHS_Robotics]

It's my understanding, I'm a transplant from Long Island, TAPPS was formed as a _reaction_ to the exclusionary dogma and territory avarice of UIL Texas.

http://tapps.biz/

--Michael Blake

Maybe, but they don't let public schools or public school students compete. There is no difference between what they do and what UIL does.

[Michael Blake]

By its very nature UIL is exclusionary..FiT is not in a position to make them change how they function, UIL isn't going to change it's rules for a pilot program.

AGREED... on UIL _not_ having to change.

But, FIRST-in-Texas _did NOT_ have to do a deal with UIL--they could've walked away and said we won't participate in anything that excludes _any_ students.

--Michael Blake

[TheDarkNight]

AGREED. Agreed. agreed--on UIL _not_ having to change.

But, FIRST-in-Texas _did NOT_ have to do a deal with UIL--they could've walked away and said we won't participate in anything that excludes _any_ students.

--Michael Blake

Getting UiL support for FRC and FTC would be a big benefit for the majority of teams in Texas which are from UiL sponsored schools, as it would most likely result in more support for those teams. Although some may be excluded, it is a big help to those teams (WHICH are the MAJORITY) that are UiL legal teams.

Although I see where you are coming from, there really is no need to start an argument here. Instead, bring it up with the UIL contact in the aforementioned link.

[Michael Blake]

To balance things out... FIRST-in-Texas does a lot of things right too... and they have people that really care about FIRST and its mission.

I look forward to the day when there's more input and participation from experienced adult team leaders to help shape and implement an aspirational FiT mission.

--Michael Blake

[Michael Blake]

Although I see where you are coming from, there really is no need to start an argument here. Instead, bring it up with the UIL contact in the aforementioned link.

It's not an "argument" it's a discussion... I thought that's what message boards were for? ;-)

--Michael Blake

[FBHS_Robotics]

AGREED... on UIL _not_ having to change.

But, FIRST-in-Texas _did NOT_ have to do a deal with UIL--they could've walked away and said we won't participate in anything that excludes _any_ students.

--Michael Blake

Yes, they could have but they would have given up an opportunity to be involved in what could be a very large promotional opportunity for FIRST. I don't want to see another platform be the "official" platform for UIL.

I don't fault them for wanting to be involved, nor do I fault them for adhering to some UIL rules. What I fault them for (on the FTC side) is not having an equitable selection process for those schools who meet UIL eligibility standards but couldn't advance from regionals. To be blunt, I don't think one school should get to send multiple teams to compete for the UIL State Championship.

[Clayton Summerall]

It's not an "argument" it's a discussion... I thought that's what message boards were for? ;-)

--Michael Blake

Michael,

We share your frustrations, as JV, is aswell a Non UIL team. This seems to be an interesting topic, as we are number 4, on the list but have to apply, and won't be on the invite list initially.

[Coach Norm]

Let me add... NOBODY here is bad guy/gal.

Has anyone looked lately at the FIRST-in-Texas board roster? WHERE'S the experienced experts on running FIRST FRC and FTC teams?

ALL accomplished folks on the board, for sure, but _how_ would they know what we teams need and want in Texas competition robotics?

--Michael Blake

I know for a fact that two of the FiT board members have experience mentoring both FLL and FTC teams. And one of them has participated as an FRC mentor as well. I also know that two others on the board are very active in organizing FIRST Robotics activities through their employer and have participated in a variety of FIRST related contests throughout the past. I believe the board of FiT is working toward improving robotics for all students in Texas. As the district model comes to Texas, finances to pay for the increased number of tournaments is a big factor. I have had conversations with no less than five of the board members.

UIL does not have any consequences on official FIRST activities.

I do not see now FIRST in Texas sees the lure of extra finances from increased number of teams. No money goes to FIRST in Texas in regards to an increased number of teams in Texas.

I am at a school district that does not allow students outside of my school to participate in our robotics program. I know there are FRC teams that do allow this. I am losing a student this year who is moving to a private school that does not have robotics. I cannot do anything about the situation except to help him impress on the administration at his new school on the impact robotics can have on students, find him a team he can participate on or help him start on a new team of some sort. We shall see what happens in the upcoming months on his plight.

UIL is the one who has chosen to recognize robotics as an activity and chosen BEST and FIRST as the ones to work with in the pilot. I for one was against UIL recognizing only one or two and not more. This year is a pilot program. As Jess said, this is the only year TRR will be impacted. UIL recognizing and promoting robotics is a good thing for all of us. It gives more credibility and raises the awareness.

I also believe that the conversation started higher up than FIRST in Texas and UIL. FIRST Headquarters have been involved in this conversation for a good while.

The meeting with UIL in Austin was not open to the public so many teams and individuals could not participate in the meetings with UIL. Even earlier than the planning meeting was the Executive Council meeting in October of 2014. Many active users here on CD were present as well representatives from multiple robotics programs. Robotics had more individuals speak about the importance of STEM and Robotics. Each made different points and different opinions. What was very apparent was the shock and surprise from the UIL Executive Council not only in the interest in robotics but also in the many different programs that were out there.

[ahartnet]

I have some slightly different #s: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ky1RxoLDVJNKltucq16-NDj4qWSwOUEvX1cUvIr8nqo/edit?usp=sharing

I don't think it changes the top 32, but just changes some ordering within there. For instance, Drakxii has 1296 with 60 pts, and I couldn't figure out what we might be doing different from each other.

I removed EI/Chairmans from award points then averaged event scores otherwise (qual + alliance + elim + general awards), then added in the EI/CHairmans/RAS + Rookie/2nd year bonuses. I didn't not include any out of state EI/Chairmans/RAS either, as the only ones I'm aware of (Spectrum and Appreciate) don't affect anything other than order within the top 32.


The top 50ish I see are


Rank Team Total points
1 frc118 73
2 frc3310 73
3 frc148 72
4 frc4587 71
5 frc4063 64
6 frc5431 58.5
7 frc231 57
8 frc3005 56.5
9 frc1296 55
10 frc2848 53.5
11 frc5726 52
12 frc624 51.5
13 frc1477 51
14 frc2468 50
15 frc57 46
16 frc6133 45.5
17 frc6171 45
18 frc5775 44
19 frc5572 43
20 frc2158 42.33333333
21 frc5057 42
22 frc5829 39
23 frc3847 38
24 frc4301 38
25 frc5417 37.5
26 frc2881 37
27 frc3679 35
28 frc5986 35
29 frc3481 33.5
30 frc3802 33.5
31 frc2583 32
32 frc6144 31
33 frc2805 30
34 frc5414 28.5
35 frc3366 28
36 frc2789 27
37 frc3743 27
38 frc3999 26.5
39 frc4639 26.5
40 frc3355 26
41 frc4192 26
42 frc4364 26
43 frc5411 26
44 frc418 25.5
45 frc4694 25
46 frc5242 25
47 frc2587 24
48 frc2882 24
49 frc3676 24
50 frc5892 24
51 frc5981 24
52 frc6196 24


As far as everything else in this thread goes - it is what it is for this year. There are advantages to FIRST being a UIL recognized program - and I believe that FiT has made their choice based on how to help the most students. Everything about it was kind of rushed (and happening at a weird time) - which implies to me that there is probably good reason why it's going down the way it did - whether it's due to a big gain or avoiding a big loss. It may be that FIRST would have been left in the dust as another robotics program became the UIL program. That would mean that it could become even tougher for teams to get support from their district. Being UIL could mean travel money for teams whenever they qualify for the "next level". It can mean students can get letter jackets (which while it's something silly in my book might mean something to plenty of students that wouldn't really letter in anything else).

Yes, it stinks for a a number of teams. I'm not really sure yet if we'll be UIL so we might be one of those that would have to apply this year for TRR. Maybe it's time some San Antonio teams started forming an off season event so that there's another one within driving distance? And like others have said - this is a band aid fix to this year. I'll be curious to see how it is addressed in future years and it'll probably be a learning process. It's still not clear to me if when we move to districts will there be a district champs in Week 7 (that UIL teams would be recognized at?), world champs, and then "UIL State" champs in May? That could be a lot of competition in a short time for many people.

I think it's good to make sure that those that are impacted in a negative way to make sure their voices are heard. But I don't believe this is creating a "second class" type team - it's UIL piggy backing off of an existing program and allowing people that meet UIL requirements to go and compete in it. Once UIL isn't part of TRR - the only people who will care if they win UIL state champs will be people that can go tell their schools/district that are UIL members. Maybe I'm being overly optimistic - but I don't see this negatively affecting anything beyond this years TRR at a high level. It may very well cause issues with individual teams that are associated with districts that will want them to be UIL eligible though. But I stated above, I'm sure the numbers game points to more students being positively impacted (a district/school that shows better support or starts an FRC team because it's UIL) then negatively impacted (an existing team no longer allowing non-UIL students). With FIRST being a worldwide thing - it's not like any of the regionals/district competitions would have anything that impacts teams with non-UIL members. [/:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: ]

[Mr.Frishman]

For those team members impacted by the UIL change I can offer this:3999 is open to anyone. We have a student that travels over 50 miles each way to be a part of our team. Skype is very effective in allowing our remote team members to participate. If you want to participate you find a way to make it work. I would have liked to sit down with some of those who made this decision but it didnt happen. Maybe it will happen in the future. Our team is structured differently than most. This was our choice. If we get excluded from certain events then so be it.

[Michael Blake]

I do not see now FIRST in Texas sees the lure of extra finances from increased number of teams. No money goes to FIRST in Texas in regards to an increased number of teams in Texas.

Norman... doesn't _ALL_ the money go to FIRST-in-Texas when they convert to DISTRICT MODEL? Team registration fees and Texas sponsor dollars ALL go to FiT when District Model?

And then FiT pays an annual fee to USFIRST, similar to a franchise fee?

--Michael Blake

[Michael Blake]

For those team members impacted by the UIL change I can offer this:3999 is open to anyone. We have a student that travels over 50 miles each way to be a part of our team. Skype is very effective in allowing our remote team members to participate. If you want to participate you find a way to make it work. I would have liked to sit down with some of those who made this decision but it didnt happen. Maybe it will happen in the future. Our team is structured differently than most. This was our choice. If we get excluded from certain events then so be it.

THAT'S the best post on this whole thread.

You guys are an awesome team.

--Michael Blake

[Michael Blake]

Michael,

We share your frustrations, as JV, is aswell a Non UIL team. This seems to be an interesting topic, as we are number 4, on the list but have to apply, and won't be on the invite list initially.

BAZINGA.

But, they're saying only for this year TRR and I believe them.

--Michael Blake

[Coach Norm]

Norman... doesn't _ALL_ the money go to FIRST-in-Texas when they convert to DISTRICT MODEL? Team registration fees and Texas sponsor dollars ALL go to FiT when District Model?

And then FiT pays an annual fee to USFIRST, similar to a franchise fee?

--Michael Blake

All money paid by a first team for registration passes along to FIRST HQ. It does not stay with FiT. I do not understand how that benefits FiT.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Norman... doesn't _ALL_ the money go to FIRST-in-Texas when they convert to DISTRICT MODEL? Team registration fees and Texas sponsor dollars ALL go to FiT when District Model?

And then FiT pays an annual fee to USFIRST, similar to a franchise fee?

--Michael Blake

Districts are handled differently by different districts.

Here is how PNW is handling it, they are the first to pioneer this model.
http://www.firstwa.org/Programs/FIRST-Robotics-Competition/Payment-Details/FRC-Funding

And for a look into the FiM system I highly recommend everyone read this document.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2804

[Michael Blake]

All money paid by a first team for registration passes along to FIRST HQ. It does not stay with FiT. I do not understand how that benefits FiT.

Norman... I asked _when_ we convert to _DISTRICT MODEL_... which should happen next season or the next after that at the latest, doesn't ALL the money from the FRC team registration fees and Texas FRC sponsors get paid to and remain with FIRST-in-Texas to operate itself and the competitions minus an annual fee FiT pays to USFIRST as a "franchise/license" fee?

I could be wrong on this, but I'm going on what I've been told by those who should know...

--Michael Blake

[Knufire]

Norman... I asked _when_ we convert to _DISTRICT MODEL_... which should happen next season or the next after that at the latest, doesn't ALL the money from the FRC team registration fees and Texas FRC sponsors get paid to and remain with FIRST-in-Texas to operate itself and the competitions minus an annual fee FiT pays to USFIRST as a "franchise/license" fee?

I could be wrong on this, but I'm going on what I've been told by those who should know...

--Michael Blake

In most district models, the $5000 registration fees by teams goes straight to FIRST HQ. $1000/team is then regranted from FIRST HQ back to the district organization.

PNW pioneered a new funding model this past year for several reasons, but even in the PNW model, the same amount of money is sent to FIRST HQ. What you are suggesting sounds similar to the PNW model, and it is possible that FiT is trying to adopt this funding model right away. More information about this model can be found here: http://pnwfirst.org/wp/files/Funding-FIRST-in-the-Northwest.pdf

When someone (in or out of state) wants to play an addition district event, that $1000 registration fee goes directly towards the district organization.

[Michael Blake]

PNW pioneered a new funding model this past year for several reasons, but even in the PNW model, the same amount of money is sent to FIRST HQ. What you are suggesting sounds similar to the PNW model, and it is possible that FiT is trying to adopt this funding model right away. More information about this model can be found here: http://pnwfirst.org/wp/files/Funding-FIRST-in-the-Northwest.pdf

When someone (in or out of state) wants to play an addition district event, that $1000 registration fee goes directly towards the district organization.

It's probably still baking on what the financial model will end up as in Texas but I can only go on what I've been told by USFIRST and FIRST-in-Texas folks that actually have business cards with "FIRST" on it.

I do know for a fact, and I have the pricing sheet, that there's a new effort afoot to raise BIG TIME $$ from Texas corporate and large organizations where the checks go to FIRST-in-Texas and this effort is to lay the financial runway to convert to District Model.

ALL good stuff, but is evidence that the financial "checkbook" for Texas FRC (at least) is moving away from USFIRST to FIRST-in-Texas where I've been told FiT's revenue goals are in the millions of dollars annually.

--Michael Blake

[Michael Blake]

Can someone from FIRST-in-Texas chime-in and inform the teams on the targeted financial model FiT intends to operate under _when converted_ to DISTRICT MODEL?

Who are the team registration fees paid to?
How are the team registration fees shared, if they are?
Who are the Texas and regional sponsors $$ paid to?
How are the Texas and regional sponsors $$ shared, if they are?

SUNSHINE is _always_ the best policy in operating a _nonprofit_ public benefit corporation which USFIRST and FIRST-in-Texas are.

--Michael Blake

[Michael Blake]

Can someone from FIRST-in-Texas chime-in and inform the teams on the targeted financial model FiT intends to operate under _when converted_ to DISTRICT MODEL?

Who are the team registration fees paid to?
How are the team registration fees shared, if they are?
Who are the Texas and regional sponsors $$ paid to?
How are the Texas and regional sponsors $$ shared, if they are?

SUNSHINE is _always_ the best policy in operating a _nonprofit_ public benefit corporation which USFIRST and FIRST-in-Texas are.

ALWAYS... and I mean _always_ follow the money --and-- observe people's actions _and_ inaction's.

Words are almost always "noise" to what's really happening... 58 years of life lessons have informed me that this is the truth.

Good people, good intentions, doesn't always produce the best, most effective, outcomes... but, sometimes it does and maybe this is one time it will but we'll see.

Waiting for some info on the above questions in the box... ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkdmOVejUlI

--Michael Blake

[RonnyV]

ALWAYS... and I mean _always_ follow the money --and-- observe people's actions _and_ inaction's.
@ https://www.maketecheasier.com/manage-touchpad-avoid-typing-errors/ :D




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkdmOVejUlI

--Michael Blake

If it will take longer than 10 hours this is another 10 hour parody for you ::rtm::
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxopViU98Xo

[RoboSquad]

The views & expressions listed is solely my own and no reflection of my team(s), program or district. :eek: That being said.

I coach FTC in the middle of nowhere(150miles to a large city). We only take students that are part of the school system due to district policy. I agree that the way this seems to have rolled out with some lack of communication, can and will stir up issues and bring things into light maybe people didn't think of when deciding to implement. No one has addressed several issues that the forum has brought forth. They, FiT, have implemented an FAQ section on FIT. So there is progress and being proactive in the issues.

The concern with the UIL is the teams are not being able to participate. It is a double edge sword. FIRST to me has always invited all to play, all are welcomed. This is UIL "borrowing" TRR for a year and most likely wanting to steal some thunder from FIRST. I feel UIL wants to join the bandwagon and slap their name on the program. So they can say they have a new program and FiT gets more teams involved during the normal season as a by-product which in turns more funds.

From my viewpoint, UIL will not affect the normal FRC/FTC season. It is just adding another layer to compete in during the year for some teams.
Not UIL school you can't go. Do not like the idea of UIL not letting a team play, then do not go, your teams call. I think it can be used as a tool to spin your own view. I think FiT & FIRST need to address the "partnership". For some of us, it feels like a hostile take over. Several of us have a bad taste when you mention UIL.

No one as well has mentioned if FTC will only be allowed 1 team per school. That is the normal allowances in UIL. I have 4 teams here and I know most larger schools have 3-6 teams. What about multiple schools that feed one team. It gets muddy quickly. I know FRC that is not an issue.

I do agree about the money issue(s) as it relates. I have been given some information when I questioned why 20% of the FRC world population went to worlds and only 2% of the FTC went to worlds.

I was told point blank that it's about money. When you factor the costs of team registrations and other fees, FRC generates upwards of 22+ million vs. 1.25 million. I was told they would have to raise the costs for FTC to register to 1000$ per team and invite a crazy amount of teams to worlds to compare.
IMO, this can be seen as non-profit to profit or it takes a lot of money to run the program. I understand we all have been in a situation where we needed to look for new money streams to help our program. I assume and hope this is what Fit & FIRST had in mind.

I love FIRST! :P It is my family and families do not always see eye to eye on things. I do,however, have a major issue when the core values can get side swiped and we start down a dark path that the mission is no longer the voice of FIRST.

Just curious, was there every a vote or poll on this move to include UIL or how did that occur?


J. Reed
Robotics coach 2008 - present

[Michael Blake]

Just curious, was there every a vote or poll on this move to include UIL or how did that occur?

J. Reed
Robotics coach 2008 - present

John... there was neither and the process and progress was super opaque and vague to those outside of the FiT club.

Believe me, I tried to get in there--they're an insular group, all _good_ and good intentioned people, but if you're not in their circle you have no chance to contribute and affect anything.

I understand the approach, because the leadership has _their_ agenda and goals (which BTW is publicly stated where?!), but it hacks me off that there aren't enough, if any, experienced, rubber hits the road, current Texas adult FIRST team leaders on the FIRST-in-Texas Board of Directors to represent the "real" of what's needed in Texas competition robotics.

--Michael Blake

[Michael Blake]

From my viewpoint, UIL will not affect the normal FRC/FTC season. It is just adding another layer to compete in during the year for some teams.

John... very mostly true... but there are teams, like mine, where the future composition of the team is affected by this.

We have always been a mixed-bag of public/private/home school students--we recruit public school students from our district... the private/home school students just find us and ask to join.

Going forward, we're instructed to be UIL compliant and no more private/home school students.

That's a BIG affect on this team and on my plans I had for the team... plus the affect on the future private/home students I haven't even met yet that I'll now have to turn away--which I can tell you will kill my soul a little bit each time I have to do that.

--Michael Blake

[FBHS_Robotics]

[QUOTE=a

Being UIL could mean travel money for teams whenever they qualify for the "next level". It can mean students can get letter jackets (which while it's something silly in my book might mean something to plenty of students that wouldn't really letter in anything else).

[/QUOTE]

I don't think this will happen at all. It is not like being a UIL recognized event opens up purse strings that weren't open before. I have already been told by my UIL coordinator that there are no, and will not ever be, additional funds for robotics in the UIL budget.

As for letter jackets. My school gets those for my kids now even though we are not UIL. That is a school by school decision.

[FBHS_Robotics]

As a fellow FTC sponsor, I mirror your concerns. I have sent an e-mail to the UIL STEM rep overseeing the robotics pilot asking about the one school, one team aspect. IF I ever get an answer, I will be sure to post it here.

[wireties]

I don't think this will happen at all. It is not like being a UIL recognized event opens up purse strings that weren't open before. I have already been told by my UIL coordinator that there are no, and will not ever be, additional funds for robotics in the UIL budget.

With respect, I think you underestimate the leverage, being a UIL sport, brings to local teams. It is already happening at our school. Informed that the Dallas competition was used to calculate points for the UIL State Championship we got transportation and other things paid by the school.

Principals prioritize UIL sports and clubs. All UIL activities contribute points to the sponsoring school. A successful robotics program might be pulled under the UIL blanket quickly - more "points", more prestige. Of course a principal or a team might chose to be non-UIL, even at a UIL eligible school. That is true of any sport or club.

[JeffB]

And let's move away from this tiered eligibility list for TRR or _anything_ FIRST competition robotics related that involves _exclusion_ of private and home school students--it's just NOT right.

--Michael Blake

After three very aggressively toned posts to this effect, let's take a bigger look at your claim.

Are private schools included in other UIL events? In those cases, are all private schools invited or is it a subset of the private schools?

When we realize UIL events tend to include UIL teams, it shouldn't be angering to see that being consistent. It's not creating tiers. It's creating more opportunities for some kids.

It's more surprising you'd naturally expect UIL to open up their competition to all schools. If UIL membership isn't required, it's no more of a stretch to ask why schools near Texas borders aren't invited. We could just as easily be upset the event excludes LA schools. Students are students, aren't they?

Is it perfect? Not at all. But, there's no need to be THIS upset about it.

[ahartnet]

I don't think this will happen at all.

For some districts it almost assuredly will. For our district it's written into the board rules that if you qualify for the State level of a UIL competiton, that the school board helps fund travel (I forget the specifics without looking it up). In fact I think there may have been some kerfuffle about it because ____ goes directly to states without any regional/district competition and there were arguments that they shouldn't be funding their travel since they don't have to qualify prior. Again, that's specific to our district but I'd be surprised if we were the only one.

As far as letterman jackets go, you're correct - it's definitely a school to school decision. But if it's a UIL recognized thing - I'd be surprised if any team would be rejected being allowed to letter in robotics. Right now, we're told no lettering - but I'm hoping with UIL that'll change for our kids that really want to letter in Robotics.

[Michael Blake]

I'm gonna step out and off this conversation from this point.

Although I'm not happy with some things from FIRST-in-Texas and I'm hopeful things will change on that within the near future... I want to reiterate as I said in an earlier post that FIRST-in-Texas does _a lot_ of things _right_ and really well and has _good_ and good intentioned folks there.

I think people confuse direct discussion with trying to blow things up... and IF we don't discuss our different viewpoints and experiences HOW do we ever resolve things?

I'll close with a favorite quote of mine:

"There's your truth there's the other person's truth and nobody's lying". --Robert Evans


--Michael Blake

[Drakxii]

Since the students are not the ones paying the UIL dues, the schools are, that first rule should just read:

1. Each team must be sponsored by at least 1 UIL member school.

This would allow team supported by the UIL school such as, 3847 and 3481, to play without having to kick people of the team.

[rsegrest]

I agree that the way this seems to have rolled out with some lack of communication...

Are you sure no one tried or did they try and get ignored? I honestly do not remember. I remember emails discussing UIL committees trying to get things organized and 'new information coming soon'. I never responded to those emails though. Having served on several different planning committees in various organizations what I have witnessed is that surveys, requests for ideas/thoughts/concerns are sent out and either very few or no one responds. I am not blaming as I am guilty of the same thing just stating what I have witnessed. I have elected not to respond to things but do so knowing that I lose all rights to complain since I am choosing not to make my feelings/thoughts known.


it takes a lot of money to run the program.
It takes a tremendous amount of money to run FRC. IMO this is part of the reason behind the push to get all states on the district model sooner rather than later. Some regionals break even, some raise more than they need, and some lose money and in the end they still have to have enough money to host Champs.


Don't just follow where the money is going. Trace where it is coming from to begin with. Those with enough power and who supply significant amounts of money to fund things also tend to put stipulations on that money and how it can be spent.

UIL governs UIL not the schools and not FIRST. We just have to abide by their rules to play their games. You don't have to do FIRST to participate in UIL just like you don't have to participate in UIL to do FIRST. Unfortunately this year it impacts TRR. Hopefully they will be able to separate the two next year.

[JohnSchneider]

Since the students are not the ones paying the UIL dues, the schools are, that first rule should just read:

1. Each team must be sponsored by at least 1 UIL member school.

This would allow team supported by the UIL school such as, 3847 and 3481, to play without having to kick people of the team.

This is a holdover from competitive sports in UIL and probably will not see change.

For instance if this extended to football, I could open up "Johns private school for football" and recruit (things normal high schools cannot do) the best players in the state. Then I could basically "rent" them out to UIL schools so they could win games and championships. They would still be UIL since some of the team are UIL sponsored.

Its possible UIL makes exceptions for robots, but I doubt its the case. Its probably going to end up being more strict if anything and only allow students from 1 high school, killing conglomerate teams.

[Drakxii]

This is a holdover from competitive sports in UIL and probably will not see change.

For instance if this extended to football, I could open up "Johns private school for football" and recruit (things normal high schools cannot do) the best players in the state. Then I could basically "rent" them out to UIL schools so they could win games and championships. They would still be UIL since some of the team are UIL sponsored.

Its possible UIL makes exceptions for robots, but I doubt its the case. Its probably going to end up being more strict if anything and only allow students from 1 high school, killing conglomerate teams.

True, but the current rules allows for conglomerate teams of students from any number of UIL schools so long as they don't have any non UIL members.

[FBHS_Robotics]

With respect, I think you underestimate the leverage, being a UIL sport, brings to local teams. It is already happening at our school. Informed that the Dallas competition was used to calculate points for the UIL State Championship we got transportation and other things paid by the school.

Principals prioritize UIL sports and clubs. All UIL activities contribute points to the sponsoring school. A successful robotics program might be pulled under the UIL blanket quickly - more "points", more prestige. Of course a principal or a team might chose to be non-UIL, even at a UIL eligible school. That is true of any sport or club.

I guess I am luckier than most than. My school pays for much of my travel and my equipment even though we are not UIL.

And since you bring up the "points" for UIL, it brings me back to my issue on the FTC side where they are letting multiple teams from a single school compete. UIL is going against the one school, one team policy it has for every other team event.

[Mr. Rip]

FRC 1477 has a student on the drive team that is from a non-UIL school. Looks like we will be applying for one of those ten open slots.

We also have students from multiple high schools and at least one from another school district. I think we are okay with respect to the former but I'm not sure about the latter.

[FBHS_Robotics]

This is a holdover from competitive sports in UIL and probably will not see change.

For instance if this extended to football, I could open up "Johns private school for football" and recruit (things normal high schools cannot do) the best players in the state. Then I could basically "rent" them out to UIL schools so they could win games and championships. They would still be UIL since some of the team are UIL sponsored.

Its possible UIL makes exceptions for robots, but I doubt its the case. Its probably going to end up being more strict if anything and only allow students from 1 high school, killing conglomerate teams.

But this doesn't address the issue of multiple teams from one school. I know that FRC has the conglomerate issue but FTC has the multi-team issue. I can't send multiple computer science teams to a UIL competition so why should I be able to send multiple robotics teams.

[JohnSchneider]

But this doesn't address the issue of multiple teams from one school. I know that FRC has the conglomerate issue but FTC has the multi-team issue. I can't send multiple computer science teams to a UIL competition so why should I be able to send multiple robotics teams.

This is a pilot. Rules are subject to change. All we can do is provide feedback and hope they bother enough to read it :)

[Coach Norm]

This is a pilot. Rules are subject to change. All we can do is provide feedback and hope they bother enough to read it :)

I have had great response from David Trussell with UIL when I call or email him in regards to UIL and robotics. David has been working with FIRST on this project for quite a while.

[dyanoshak]

I feel like this thread has gotten way off topic and readers will get the wrong impression about what is really happening in Texas.

The facts as stated by a few people in this thread and the FIRST in Texas website:

TRR is switching to an invite model similar to other off-season events this year only. Invitations will go out based on the points method described on the FIT website and UIL eligibility. 10 slots PLUS any unfilled slots will be application based entry.
TRR is also serving as a pilot UIL Texas State Championship, so any team that falls into the UIL bucket can be recognized within UIL circles. This doesn't affect any other standings/awards at the event.
Any Texas FRC team or collection of FTC teams can continue participating, competing, winning, etc. as they would.
If and only if that team wants to get recognized in UIL circles with UIL awards and UIL standings, they must be UIL eligible and follow UIL rules.
The fact that UIL recognizes FIRST doesn't mean that suddenly every Texas FIRST team must make themselves UIL eligible.
If a school is telling its FIRST team that it must remove students to be eligible, then it is a school issue, not a FIRST or FIRST in Texas issue.

UIL recognizing robotics doesn't prevent any existing or future teams and students from participating in FIRST. It only gives one more avenue for recognition for those who happen to qualify.

I’ve said it on CD before and I think it would be good advice for this thread:

As it states on the front cover of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: DON’T PANIC

[JohnSchneider]

If a school is telling its FIRST team that it must remove students to be eligible, then it is a school issue, not a FIRST or FIRST in Texas issue.


Well the argument of this thread is, that by accepting a bid form UIL, some schools/districts will now require their teams be UIL eligible affecting existing teams. So the fact that some teams will have to restructure/turn away kids IS sort of a FIT issue.

While I think in the end, this won't be as big of a deal as some people think, I also believe its become apparent that a large group of Texas teams are not UIL eligible currently and it's concerning.

[dyanoshak]

Well the argument of this thread is, that by accepting a bid form UIL, some schools/districts will now require their teams be UIL eligible affecting existing teams. So the fact that some teams will have to restructure/turn away kids IS sort of a FIT issue.

I still consider this a decision on the school district side of things. If the school says "now that there is a UIL option, you must compete in UIL" it is the school being exclusionary. I don't think it is fair to blame FIT’s move to get more schools involved (schools that don't look at anything but UIL).

My school has had a rule for a long time that we can't have students on the team from outside of the district; it is a liability issue independent of the UIL rules. I would assume most schools have similar rules that exist regardless of the UIL status of robotics.

2158 had home school and out of district kids on our team in our first few years until the administration noticed and told us to follow the rules. We had to restructure/turn away kids, but we made the best of it and helped them start their own programs.

It is quite possible that at the schools where teams MIGHT have to restructure, it would have happened anyway regardless of UIL participation once the administration realized that students from outside their school were participating on the school’s team.

[Coach Norm]

I feel like this thread has gotten way off topic and readers will get the wrong impression about what is really happening in Texas.

The facts as stated by a few people in this thread and the FIRST in Texas website:

TRR is switching to an invite model similar to other off-season events this year only. Invitations will go out based on the points method described on the FIT website and UIL eligibility. 10 slots PLUS any unfilled slots will be application based entry.
TRR is also serving as a pilot UIL Texas State Championship, so any team that falls into the UIL bucket can be recognized within UIL circles. This doesn't affect any other standings/awards at the event.
Any Texas FRC team or collection of FTC teams can continue participating, competing, winning, etc. as they would.
If and only if that team wants to get recognized in UIL circles with UIL awards and UIL standings, they must be UIL eligible and follow UIL rules.
The fact that UIL recognizes FIRST doesn't mean that suddenly every Texas FIRST team must make themselves UIL eligible.
If a school is telling its FIRST team that it must remove students to be eligible, then it is a school issue, not a FIRST or FIRST in Texas issue.

UIL recognizing robotics doesn't prevent any existing or future teams and students from participating in FIRST. It only gives one more avenue for recognition for those who happen to qualify.

I’ve said it on CD before and I think it would be good advice for this thread:

As it states on the front cover of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: DON’T PANIC


+1

[fresh_prince]

Are private schools included in other UIL events? In those cases, are all private schools invited or is it a subset of the private schools?

The only private schools that are UIL members are Strake Jesuit College Preparatory (FRC#3847 - Spectrum) and Dallas Jesuit College Preparatory (FRC#2848 - All Sparks). This situation only exists because our two schools sued back in 2003.

As Allen mentioned earlier, this makes things complicated for 3847 because all of the girls on our team are from a non-UIL school, St Agnes.

[hectorcastillo]

I don't believe that UIL is the problem here, and by problem I mean the ones people should be upset with. The reason FIRST is supporting the inclusion of UIL is so that FIRST can reach more schools and start more teams (both to pursue their mission and bring in more money). This inclusion of UIL only includes an additional event in the off-season. Notice so far that nothing is being taken away, only added.

From what I've gathered, people are upset because either their team won't be able to participate in the additional UIL event or that they will have to turn kids away in order to attend this additional UIL event. Neither FIRST nor UIL is forcing any team to participate in the additional UIL event. That decision is made solely by the team and whatever school/organization controls the team. So if you are being "forced" to turn away kids from your team, it is because your school is "forcing" you, not UIL or FIRST.

Now let's look at why your school would be forcing your team to become UIL eligible. One reason may be that perhaps competition in the UIL state championship would benefit the school reputation. Another, more intuitive reason, would be so that their students can receive UIL recognition that they could not receive before. Notice that by not requiring the team to be UIL eligible, you are still not taking anything away from the students, only providing some with more opportunities at the cost of opportunities for others.

So here is the the real question (and this is directed at whoever is making the UIL eligibility decision for the team): Are you willing to turn away some students so that other students can get UIL recognition?

If yes: some students are mildly appreciative but sad that some of their friends aren't allowed to be on the team anymore. And other students and parents are really pissed off.

If no: great. Literally keep doing what you would've been doing if this UIL thing never even came up.

The sad part, in my opinion, is that they have to use TRR for their test run THIS year in particular. Why does it have to be when we're playing FIRST Stronghold?! Why couldn't it have been during Recycle Rush?! No one liked Recycle Rush!!! I mean sure, there are a ton of other great off season events in Texas, but I always enjoy going to TRR. But I'll live, and so will everyone else.

[TheDarkNight]

The sad part, in my opinion, is that they have to use TRR for their test run THIS year in particular. Why does it have to be when we're playing FIRST Stronghold?! Why couldn't it have been during Recycle Rush?! No one liked Recycle Rush!!! I mean sure, there are a ton of other great off season events in Texas, but I always enjoy going to TRR. But I'll live, and so will everyone else.

Don't see why you are trying to act sorry, I'm sure your team will get one of the 10 spots, considering your Bayou performance.

[hectorcastillo]

Don't see why you are trying to act sorry, I'm sure your team will get one of the 10 spots, considering your Bayou performance.

I meant to speak generally, not necessarily with regards to my team. I was just saying that it's unfortunate that participation is most restricted for such a good game.

And thanks, I guess.

[Jon Stratis]

I've been following this thread with interest for a while, but have tried to avoid posting because I don't think it's my place to tell Texas how they should run, and I probably won't post more past this. However, I can provide a little insight from Minnesota's association with the Minnesota State High School League and our state championship. This will be the 5th year we run the event, and it's been a success each year. Teams come, play, have fun, and a couple of teams walk away with trophies and recognition they otherwise wouldn't have gotten.

To say the State Championship is a big deal for a lot of teams here is an understatement. Attending, or if your lucky enough winning, brings with it a level of recognition and prestige in our schools that is unmatched by regionals or event champs - States is something that is on par with all the other sports, something everyone in the school naturally gets without having to have everything explained. Having those trophies, which look just like the trophies other sports get for winning their respective state championships, is huge. I've known teams that have won regionals, attended champs multiple times... But it's their attendance at and winning of the state championship that is recognized across their community. It provides them with huge boosts in recruitment and funding as well.

Aside from the championship, recognition from the MSHSL has had a measurable impact on teams. Teachers find it easier to get stipends for their work with the teams, schools provide more funding for teams, and even schools athletic directors are getting involved - in fact, the school I work with renamed the position last year to "activities director" in recognition that it's about more than just athletics. That support specifically brings with it a lot of help that we never used to have.

So, I'll always be on the side of "state championships are good".

For the "split" that's happening between UIL teams and non-UIL teams... That really is unfortunate. But I strongly believe that FiT didn't really have a choice in the matter. If UIL is going to recognize robotics programs, and schools are going to care so much about it that we see this level of discussion, isn't it better to be involved with that process? What would have happened if GoT turned their noses up at the UIL, said "everyone or no one"?. It's possible, maybe even likely, that the UIL would say "ok, we're going to recognize this other robotics program instead". Then where would all of you be? Would we have schools telling you "well, you can't do FIRST anymore because we want you to do this other program so we get the recognition. Oh, and you still have to refuse any non-UIL student."? I think refusing to be a part of UIL would have had many more downsides than joining up.

After all, what are we all supposed to be trying to do? The first 4 words of FIRST's vision is "To transform our culture". You don't do that from the outside. So get in there, get the UIL people hooked on the FIRST culture, and try to change theirs. It's up to each and every one of us to be a champion of FIRST, to constantly push our schools and community to change. It doesn't happen overnight, but it is something you can achieve.

[Greg McKaskle]

Think about high school football games or other sports. Does that look like FIRST culture? Does the territorialism exhibited at those UIL events resemble anything we have been taught to value in FIRST, most notably GP?

I agree that UIL sports culture is not the same as FIRST, but I'd encourage you to read the Wikipedia page about UIL academics. A half million kids participate in UIL academics each year. I couldn't find an equivalent sum-up number for FIRST, but I believe they are about the same size, UIL being a bit bigger in number of students involved in academic activities.

I graduated HS before FIRST existed, and UIL academics was my own FIRST equivalent. It gave me a place to focus my energy and achieve something -- alongside adult teachers/coaches. It pointed me towards higher education, helped with funding, gave me confidence, and yes -- I even made friends because of it. There are many other programs that provide these same benefits -- FIRST is awesome and I enjoy volunteering and advancing its goals, but it isn't the only organization making a difference.

I cannot comment on how this will impact established FIRST teams. I'm sure it isn't perfect, but I trust that many people are doing their best to make this transition as positive as possible. I appreciate your concern, and hope that you are able to be involved in order to represent your team's situation.

But. I think it is unfair to lump all of UIL into what you see/read about in HS football or other aggressive sports events. Nerds, geeks, and future scientists and engineers at a math meet are not that different than when they are at a FIRST event. If your slide-rule broke, some one would loan you their backup -- before my time BTW. If your decimal key or zero key wears out on your calculator, someone would loan you their backup -- yes, that happened to me.

I'm proud of what UIL academics accomplishes and hope that we can find a way to make robotics a part of it. This trial will help determine if that makes sense.

Greg McKaskle

[FBHS_Robotics]

I have had great response from David Trussell with UIL when I call or email him in regards to UIL and robotics. David has been working with FIRST on this project for quite a while.

I e-mailed David Trussel (about the one school, one team aspect for FTC) and his answer was basically what was said previously. This is a pilot and all aspects of the rules, competition, etc. will be reviewed after this year.

Not really an formal answer but he got back to me in less than 24 hours and recognized my concerns. While, this doesn't mean that anything will be done in the future to address my concern, at least it shows me that UIL is trying to listen.

[Mykey]

The only private schools that are UIL members are Strake Jesuit College Preparatory (FRC#3847 - Spectrum) and Dallas Jesuit College Preparatory (FRC#2848 - All Sparks). This situation only exists because our two schools sued back in 2003.

As Allen mentioned earlier, this makes things complicated for 3847 because all of the girls on our team are from a non-UIL school, St Agnes.

This is not completely correct. Central Catholic here in San Antonio is an UIL school.

5986 hopes to get an invite. That being said, I can see where this is a double edged sword. Although the rookie team I am running now is not excluded, I am also a home-schooling parent, a scout leader, and a mentor from a prior team that this will exclude.

There are already some serious additional challenges that a non-school based team has to overcome. Widening that gap is not the way to go.

In the future I hope that the UIL rules/competition will stay the same as FRC's. It is already hard enough to sustain an FRC program as it is without dividing the resources to meet multiple goals.

[jee7s]

This is not completely correct. Central Catholic here in San Antonio is an UIL school.

5986 hopes to get an invite...

Can you provide your conference and district? Looking at the posted UIL Academic Alignments (here: https://www.uiltexas.org/academics/alignments) doesn't show SA Central Catholic as a UIL school.

[fresh_prince]

This is not completely correct. Central Catholic here in San Antonio is an UIL school.

This document (http://www.uiltexas.org/files/alignments/2016_Alphabetical.pdf) comprises an alphabetical list of all UIL member schools and their division alignments. I did not see Central Catholic when I looked, but it may be under a different name if it is there.

This document (http://tapps.net/wp-content/uploads/5AOverall.pdf) from the TAPPS website also lists Central Catholic as a TAPPS school.

[wireties]

I still consider this a decision on the school district side of things. If the school says "now that there is a UIL option, you must compete in UIL" it is the school being exclusionary.

I wouldn't use the word "exclusionary". It makes it sound like the UIL teams are doing something intentional. This is simply the beginnings of a merger of two organizations whose prior structures are not 100% compatible. I know in our district many policies, insurance and otherwise, are written with references to the UIL guidelines. It was easier since UIL is the predominant vehicle for all organized club and sports competitions. The school itself has no choice and the district had no malice. There may be some pre-existing public versus private school exclusion issues, too big a topic to debate on CD, but I do not think individual schools are being intentionally "exclusionary".

[mAYple]

s1900ahon, team Age is added to overall score not per event.

I am unsure if teams at Texas events get 5 points for a Chairman's/EI/RAS and then bonus points on top of that or just the bonus points. Also I don't know if winning EI or Chairman's twice gives double points, but I gave 2881 the extra points anyways.

Here is the list by the UIL rules, per the assumptions above. Note, this list doesn't take into account tiebreakers or eligibility. Also I may have missed awards outside of Texas.


Rank Team Points
1 118 73.0
1 3310 73.0
3 148 72.0
4 4587 71.0
5 4063 64.0
6 1296 60.0
6 2468 60.0
8 5431 58.5
9 231 57.0
10 3005 56.5
11 1477 53.5
11 2848 53.5
13 5726 52.0
14 624 51.5
15 6171 50.0
16 57 46.0
16 3847 46.0
18 6133 45.5
19 5775 44.0
20 5572 43.0
21 2158 42.3
22 2881 42.0
22 5057 42.0
24 5829 39.0
25 4301 38.0
26 5417 37.5
27 6144 36.0
28 3679 35.0
28 5986 35.0
30 3481 33.5
30 3802 33.5
32 2583 32.0
33 2805 30.0
34 5892 29.0
35 5414 28.5
36 3366 28.0
37 2789 27.0
37 3743 27.0
39 3999 26.5
39 4639 26.5
41 3355 26.0
41 4192 26.0
41 4364 26.0
41 5411 26.0
45 418 25.5
46 4694 25.0
46 5242 25.0
48 2587 24.0
48 2882 24.0
48 3676 24.0
48 5981 24.0
48 6196 24.0
53 3735 23.3
54 6155 23.0
55 5754 22.0
55 6111 22.0
55 6126 22.0
55 6235 22.0
59 5427 21.0
59 5771 21.0
59 5866 21.0
59 5923 21.0
59 6172 21.0
64 5416 20.0
64 5639 20.0
64 6051 20.0
67 704 19.0
67 1745 19.0
67 5888 19.0
70 5894 18.0
71 647 17.0
71 5682 17.0
71 5739 17.0
71 5908 17.0
71 5960 17.0
76 457 16.0
76 1255 16.0
76 4076 16.0
76 6180 16.0
80 3741 15.0
81 2613 14.0
81 2969 14.0
81 3103 14.0
81 5503 14.0
81 5681 14.0
86 4332 13.0
86 5103 13.0
88 1642 12.0
88 2721 12.0
88 2950 12.0
88 3545 12.0
88 4295 12.0
88 4298 12.0
88 4610 12.0
88 4734 12.0
88 5052 12.0
97 3305 11.0
97 3345 11.0
97 3561 11.0
97 4155 11.0
97 5212 11.0
102 3335 10.5
102 4300 10.5
104 3029 10.0
104 3035 10.0
104 3240 10.0
104 5241 10.0
108 441 9.0
108 653 9.0
108 3043 9.0
108 3728 9.0
108 5070 9.0
108 5261 9.0
114 2582 8.0
114 3350 8.0
114 4219 8.0
114 4328 8.0
114 4570 8.0
114 5566 8.0
120 4641 7.5
121 2585 7.0
121 3282 7.0
121 3370 7.0
121 4696 7.0
125 1817 6.5
126 2897 6.0
126 3700 6.0
126 4378 6.0
126 4412 6.0
126 4799 6.0
126 4852 6.0
132 2966 5.0
132 3997 5.0
132 4717 5.0
132 5047 5.0
136 3037 4.0
136 3417 4.0
136 3834 4.0
136 4206 4.0
140 4597 3.0


Whoa, cool to see us so high up!