FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST) [Archive]

Mr_Moko

15-04-2016, 15:41

Greetings Chief Delphi users, my name is Josh from FRC 2729, though I am not here to talk to you as someone from 2729.
I'm here to talk to you about a blog that I have been working on with my friend Sean from FRC 5113. What is this blog?
FIRST LGBT+ is a blog that we hope will help provide resources and increase confidence for LGBT+ people to follow their passion for STEM in and out of FIRST.
We hope to harbor more acceptance and visibility for LGBT+ people in FIRST.
We hope that this blog will be something that everyone in FIRST can benefit from no matter who they are
We hope that this blog will be a fun and helpful entity that is not affiliated with any one team, but is run by students all over the world.

We are currently looking for staff before we really get the blog going (being that there are only two of us at the moment)
We are looking for 1 person per region/district at the moment, though once the blog becomes properly started up we will increase that number to 2 staff per region/district
If you're interested in helping out you can find the application HERE (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/16f-vKnHCDn6acwmWr0NcHG57hvJgDlSYdf56ttWsnXs/viewform)

tldr: Trying to start up a blog for LGBT+ people in robotics, though we need support from the community, it's run by students and if you want to try help you, check out the application above

Have any question, opinions or comments? Respond to this thread, mention us on Twitter (@LGBT_of_FIRST), send us an Ask on Tumblr (lgbt-of-first) or email us (lgbtplusfirst@gmail.com)
http://megaicons.net/static/img/icons_sizes/40/110/16/tumblr-icon.pngTumblr(Main Page) (http://lgbt-of-first.tumblr.com/)
https://g.twimg.com/twitter-bird-16x16.pngTwitter (https://twitter.com/LGBT_of_FIRST)

Madison

15-04-2016, 18:11

There were a few interesting posts in a recent thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147043) about representation and accommodation of LGBTQ folks in STEM.

I've become increasingly interested in ways FIRST can, institutionally, be a better place for groups like these and how I, as a mentor, can be aware of my impact.

Looking forward to hearing more about this.

Liam Fay

15-04-2016, 18:31

This looks like it'll be great - there's a surprisingly small amount of talk about LGBT+ issues in FIRST.

indieFan

15-04-2016, 19:11

This looks like it'll be great - there's a surprisingly small amount of talk about LGBT+ issues in FIRST.

Am I the only one that wouldn't expect there to be much, if any, talk about LGBT+ issues in FIRST?

There is a time and a place to discuss various things. An event about Science and Technology just doesn't strike me as the right time and place for LGBT+ discussions.

The same would be true for racism, anti-semitism, pro-life/pro-choice, etc.

1493kd

15-04-2016, 20:03

The same would be true for racism, anti-semitism, pro-life/pro-choice, etc.

Sorry but your comparision of racism, anti-semitism, and pro-life/choice to LGBT is completely off.

You can choose to not be one and the other is who you are....

That is why such a blog can be helpful

throwaway

15-04-2016, 20:06

Am I the only one that wouldn't expect there to be much, if any, talk about LGBT+ issues in FIRST?

No you're not.

Liam Fay

15-04-2016, 20:28

No you're not.

While I do think this blog is valuable, the writers need to make sure they're going for quality over quantity. A bunch of blog posts that just happen to be by LGBT+ authors won't cut it. I'd rather see just one a week that is relevant and thoughtful.

This is coming from a gay FIRSTer.

pilleya

15-04-2016, 20:36

Am I the only one that wouldn't expect there to be much, if any, talk about LGBT+ issues in FIRST?

There is a time and a place to discuss various things. An event about Science and Technology just doesn't strike me as the right time and place for LGBT+ discussions.

The same would be true for racism, anti-semitism, pro-life/pro-choice, etc.

No, FIRST isn’t just a Science and Technology event.

"To transform our culture by creating a world where science and technology are celebrated and where young people dream of becoming science and technology leaders." Dean Kamen, Founder

Every year students and mentors from more than 3000 team overcome a huge range of challenges, these students develop solutions to many problems and overcome them in just 6 weeks. If students can accomplish this I’m sure that they can solve problems in their greater community, and overcome adversity within FIRST.

Racism and Anti-Semitism is obviously not acceptable, but there is nothing wrong with encouraging discussion about LGBT+ issues within FIRST, after all the students of FIRST are tomorrows leaders.

bdaroz

15-04-2016, 20:43

As a mentor of a rookie team we have not really had to deal with LGBT+ issues, yet. I hope this could be another resource to help us make the experience inclusive, comfortable, and just as inspiring as it is for all the other students.

(As an example, I look forward to, and do read threads on how other teams handle transgender students in traveling situations. I would think (and hope) this would be our most challenging issue to overcome.)

Not_A_Koala

15-04-2016, 20:44

Am I the only one that wouldn't expect there to be much, if any, talk about LGBT+ issues in FIRST?

There is a time and a place to discuss various things. An event about Science and Technology just doesn't strike me as the right time and place for LGBT+ discussions.

The same would be true for racism, anti-semitism, pro-life/pro-choice, etc.

I don't think the point is have a discussion about the umbrella of general LGBT+ issues, but rather how FIRST integrates diverse communities into their platform. There is a very popular thread right now regarding inclusiveness with respect to gender in FRC, and there was an other about the FRC experience from the perpectice of a student of color. I'd expect this project to be addressing those issues introduced by the other under-represented demographics but from an LGBT+ scope.

Interestngly, industry leaders don't see FRC as just a "competition about science and technology". There are multiple workshops on the itinerary at Worlds (presented by corperate leaders) this year that are addressing the issue of diversity and inclusions within the FIRST programs. If industry leaders think these issues are important enough to discuss, who are we to render them irrelevant?

Conor Ryan

15-04-2016, 20:55

I'm all for what empowers students to go ahead and make more robots and STEM careers happen. Contrary to popular belief, FIRST is about Robots that Build Teams, not the other way around.

The new, hot term in business circles is "Inclusive Leadership". I think an important theme for the blog is encouraging that type of student leadership.

Go forth and inspire!

dakota0000

15-04-2016, 21:03

I'm so excited to see where this project goes! I hope the blog is inclusive of other marginalized and underrepresented communties in FIRST and successful in impacting robotics culture.

Monochron

15-04-2016, 21:19

An event about Science and Technology just doesn't strike me as the right time and place for LGBT+ discussions.

The same would be true for racism, anti-semitism, pro-life/pro-choice, etc.

We talk about African American representation in FIRST all the time, which often leads to discussions of racism. If our goal is to spread inspiration of STEM then LGBT is a great place for us for focus our energies.

Insanity000

15-04-2016, 21:37

We talk of making FRC more inclusive and better for LGBT+ people but that brings me to the thought; if there are issues for LGBT+ people in FRC how bad and to what extent are they? I'm not saying there aren't issues for them in FRC I'm just wondering how big of an issue this is as I am not as aware of issues for LGBT+ people in FRC as i am with say women in STEM.

Those who have experienced discriminatory actions or negative actions towards LGBT+ people in FRC can you elaborate and share on some of the issues you have observed?

By the way I think this is an awesome idea that can be very appealing to the LGBT+ niche in FRC. Keep it up!

Mr_Moko

15-04-2016, 22:16

While I do think this blog is valuable, the writers need to make sure they're going for quality over quantity. A bunch of blog posts that just happen to be by LGBT+ authors won't cut it. I'd rather see just one a week that is relevant and thoughtful.

The idea is for us to take time to take posts, because the ideal of quality over quantity is one that should be followed by as many people as physically possible.
Staff members will start their own posts about things relevant to LGBT+ in FIRST, whether that's an interview, resources or stories of their experiences in FIRST being LGBT+! So we do not intend to rush posts to come out or set deadlines for our staff.

I hope the blog is inclusive of other marginalized and underrepresented communties in FIRST and successful in impacting robotics culture.

Of course! We'll being doing our best to be as inclusive as we can to everyone in FIRST.

As a mentor of a rookie team we have not really had to deal with LGBT+ issues, yet. I hope this could be another resource to help us make the experience inclusive, comfortable, and just as inspiring as it is for all the other students.

Once the blog is properly started (which may not be until after Worlds because I know how busy people are) we hope that we can be a resource for both you as a mentor and for your team members!
We love to see teams that are publicly supportive of their LGBT+ members and hope that more will follow in their footsteps.

trumpthero786

15-04-2016, 22:47

Hey Josh. This is a great thing that you are doing and it is a wonderful idea. I hope it springs off and makes the FIRST community even more accepting of differences than it already is.

dmaggio744

15-04-2016, 23:03

Just my two cents, i think this is a really cool idea! Sent my application in on the tumblr, cant wait to hear back! :)

Mr_Moko

15-04-2016, 23:10

Hey Josh. This is a great thing that you are doing and it is a wonderful idea. I hope it springs off and makes the FIRST community even more accepting of differences than it already is.
Thanks Humza! I hope that everyone, including our team can benefit from this!

Red2486

15-04-2016, 23:11

What a great idea! I've been hoping for something like this for a while!

Like mentioned earlier, I hope you include resources for mentors who want to make sure that their teams are as inclusive as possible! I can think of a number of ways that teams might be accidentally excluding students just because they don't know they are (it may be as little as using gender/sex interchangeably on team forms or as big as a mentor accidentally 'outing' a student to their family). As mentors, we spend a lot of time with these kids and I think it is important for us to understand their situations and hardships and to accomadate them accordingly.

I also think that if we want kids to dream of becoming "science and technology heroes" we have to make sure that they feel represented and welcome in science and technology. Well done!

jds2001

15-04-2016, 23:27

As a gay mentor (who, as some others in this thread have said, doesn't make a big deal about it to my team - in fact, I am so heteronormative that my team likely has no idea) I can see where there's non-inclusive language being used even on my team that makes me slightly uncomfortable. I'm able to just shrug it off and not worry about it. However, when I put myself in the shoes of a student, I can easily see how some of this language could make a student feel unwelcome and ostracized, especially if they weren't yet comfortable enough with themselves and figuring out their identity.

I think that this blog is a great idea. There definitely should be a diversity aspect to FIRST, and not just about sexual orientation and gender identity. Someone earlier in the thread said that discussions about racism, anti-Semitism, etc don't belong in FIRST. I couldn't disagree more - it's a discussion that needs to be urgently had. If a member of a group, whatever that is, is made to feel uncomfortable (or would be made to feel uncomfortable if they were present) in any way it is unacceptable. The conversation needs to happen right then and there about why the behavior is unacceptable and how to avoid it in the future.

indieFan

16-04-2016, 00:04

Karthik

16-04-2016, 00:23

If you want to have a discussion about diversity and inclusion, shouldn't it be that we are all human and deserve similar opportunities?

We absolutely all deserve similar opportunities. Unfortunately some members of our community are denied opportunities or excluded (directly and indirectly, intentionally and unintentionally) because of their race/gender/sexual orientation/religion. It's for this reason that there's a need for specific attention for these groups; to help address the inequity they face.

Leila Silver

16-04-2016, 00:36

TheModMaster8

16-04-2016, 01:30

honestly, to me. FIRST is about Science and technology, not so much political/social or cultural views, That to me seems like a team level fix and not a FIRST level fix, just my 2 cents

New Lightning

16-04-2016, 01:35

honestly, to me. FIRST is about Science and technology, not so much political/social or cultural views, That to me seems like a team level fix and not a FIRST level fix, just my 2 cents

True I believe that most of the work will have to come from changes within teams. But having said that, having a movement that spans all of first, to help guide teams to the kind of changes that are necessary, will have a much larger impact than leaving it up to the individual teams to try and figure out what changes are needed.

TheModMaster8

16-04-2016, 02:29

True I believe that most of the work will have to come from changes within teams. But having said that, having a movement that spans all of first, to help guide teams to the kind of changes that are necessary, will have a much larger impact than leaving it up to the individual teams to try and figure out what changes are needed.

That is true, Though normally (From what i've seen over my years) FIRST tries to steer clear of topic like these as they cause division amongst people. People normally don't like to be told what they should and shouldn't believe or run and not run their teams, as well as their views on matters such as this and others.
again... just my 2 cents

Sperkowsky

16-04-2016, 04:15

Mr_Moko

16-04-2016, 06:38

Just a quick note.

That logo violates First's branding standards. Essentially there is not enough whitespace between your words and the FIRST's logo vertically.

Its probably not a huge deal right now but in the long road if this gets as big as you want it could cause some issues.

There was an attempt to use the guidelines somewhere even though that was a little lost, though I am trying to contact FIRST about
A) Actually using their legal property for our logo
B) If there should be improvements so that the logo can fit better with the branding (Which there most definitely are)
Thank you for the heads up though!

As a gay mentor (who, as some others in this thread have said, doesn't make a big deal about it to my team - in fact, I am so heteronormative that my team likely has no idea) I can see where there's non-inclusive language being used even on my team that makes me slightly uncomfortable. I'm able to just shrug it off and not worry about it. However, when I put myself in the shoes of a student, I can easily see how some of this language could make a student feel unwelcome and ostracized, especially if they weren't yet comfortable enough with themselves and figuring out their identity.

We'll be doing our best to supply resources for mentors and students alike! Hopefully mentors will not only benefit by helping team members, but by feeling included themselves.
Though I'm sure many LGBT+ FIRST-ers know the feeling of team members saying things that would make them uncomfortable even when they don't realize it. I know that personally I do and it's a tad enlightening to see that even mentors feel that way!
Keep up the good work with your team!

True I believe that most of the work will have to come from changes within teams. But having said that, having a movement that spans all of first, to help guide teams to the kind of changes that are necessary, will have a much larger impact than leaving it up to the individual teams to try and figure out what changes are needed.

As was said, changing FIRST as a whole would be a slow and arduous process that would most likely not go very well as there are clashes in beliefs, but going with teams at a time would be the way to go (like you said). Even if it were only a handful of students on a team that's still an impact that we want to have.
With that being said, we're not going to try our hand and force teams to be accepting of LGBT+ people, but we hope that people will see that it's the right thing to do because it effects more people within FIRST than people realize.

grstex

16-04-2016, 10:33

If you want to have a discussion about diversity and inclusion, shouldn't it be that we are all human and deserve similar opportunities? By creating separate blogs/posts/groups for each category, aren't you actually contributing to the lack of diversity and inclusion?

I think Josh's stated goals are to provide resources for everyone, with a emphasis on and perspective from the LGBT+ community. It may be a separate page, but its a resource everyone can utilize when trying to confront diversity issues. Would you say groups like NEMO (http://www.firstnemo.org) segregate non-engineer mentors from the rest of the FIRST community?

honestly, to me. FIRST is about Science and technology, not so much political/social or cultural views, That to me seems like a team level fix and not a FIRST level fix, just my 2 cents

I don't see how what Josh is doing is in conflict with your statement. He's an individual on a team, reaching out to provide support and a voice to others in the FIRST community. it's not like this is a mandate coming from New Hampshire.

There was an attempt to use the guidelines somewhere even though that was a little lost, though I am trying to contact FIRST about
A) Actually using their legal property for our logo
B) If there should be improvements so that the logo can fit better with the branding (Which there most definitely are)
Thank you for the heads up though!

First of all, I commend you for taking the initiative and starting something new to further enrich the FIRST experience for everyone.

If it turns out you need to change the logo, PM me and I'll either help design or mentor a student in developing a new one.

Aura_

16-04-2016, 11:22

AJCaliciuri

16-04-2016, 11:50

Monochron

16-04-2016, 12:01

I believe this post is just to present an uproar in the FIRST community to unite over some pointless propaganda for a new blog.

It may benefit you to read the OP again, and to read Mr_Moko's subsequent posts. If you can read those thoroughly and still believe that his intent is only to ignite uproar, I think you may need to reevaluate how your own beliefs are affecting your judgement.

The intent is very clearly to provide resources to a group of student/mentors who are in the minority in FIRST. Similar to how we try to provide resources to women in engineering, LGBT+ is another group that could use them. That's it.

Kingland093

16-04-2016, 12:03

First off, I think this is an awesome idea!

I've read a lot of the comments in the thread, and I understand why some people may be concerned. But, when I was in High School, I had a really hard time fitting in and it was difficult for me to make friends. Being on a FIRST team was one of the first times I felt that I belonged. The way I see it, FIRST teams are supposed to be a safe place where students can explore their love of science and technology without being discriminated against for any reason (race/religion/gender/sexual orientation etc).

I don't think FIRST being open and welcoming to anyone who wants to be involved takes any political or social stance. Besides, this is a private effort that isn't directly affiliated with FIRST HQ.

Good luck on the blog and keep up the awesome work!

+1. My experience has been the same way as well. My FIRST team was really the first place I felt I belonged and could really excel at something I was really passionate about.

At the core, FIRST is about inspiration of ALL students and I think that this blog can be a great way to help inspire an extremely under represented minority.

Great work with the blog and good luck!!

Aura_

16-04-2016, 12:09

It may benefit you to read the OP again, and to read Mr_Moko's subsequent posts. If you can read those thoroughly and still believe that his intent is only to ignite uproar, I think you may need to reevaluate how your own beliefs are affecting your judgement.

The intent is very clearly to provide resources to a group of student/mentors who are in the minority in FIRST. Similar to how we try to provide resources to women in engineering, LGBT+ is another group that could use them. That's it.

I read it thoroughly the first time and believe this is a waste of a thread on chief delphi.

MrRoboSteve

16-04-2016, 12:20

FIRST's welcoming, accepting attitude is one major reason that I became involved. It's easy for someone in my position to think that things are perfect -- but that's my point of view showing.

The blog that Josh and others are creating helps me understand others FIRST experience, good or bad. I have the same goal as Alfred Adler: "Seeing with the eyes of another, listening with the ears of another, and feeling with the heart of another".

Liam Fay

16-04-2016, 12:27

Monochron

16-04-2016, 12:36

I read it thoroughly the first time and believe this is a waste of a thread on chief delphi.

Then we have nothing to discuss, you have my opinion about your perception. There are a good many people who have suggested their support for this thread so I recommend that you respectfully withdraw from the conversation. We don't have to speak about it further if you like.

grstex

16-04-2016, 12:38

I read it thoroughly the first time and believe this is a waste of a thread on chief delphi.

The value of this thread is a matter of perspective. No one's forcing you to join the conversation. In fact, you don't even have to respond to this post. I and others will understand if you don't want to open the link to this thread again, since you feel its a "waste."

Akash Rastogi

16-04-2016, 12:42

I read it thoroughly the first time and believe this is a waste of a thread on chief delphi.

"I don't like this and disagree with it, so nobody should have to read about it."

This is the internet, feel free to not click on the incredibly clear thread title.

Who the hell cares if some people want to discuss this and some don't?

mrnoble

16-04-2016, 12:46

My team has a strong connection with LGBTQ in our community; a disproportionately large number of students are gay, bisexual, nonbinary, or have gay parents or siblings (about one in five on our team). I'm very happy to see INDIVIDUALS and TEAMS addressing the experiences of these folks as they relate to FIRST and other STEM activities. A shame (but not a surprise) that some folks find this to be negative. FRC is a large organization and there will be all kinds.

mrnoble

16-04-2016, 12:48

And Aura can earn respect for her/his/their opinion when he/she/they can drop the anonymous status.

the_godfaubel

16-04-2016, 12:59

asid61

16-04-2016, 13:18

This sounds like a great idea! It's things like this that set FIRST apart from other organizations.
I don't think you'll end up integrating into the actual FIRST corporation, to avoid controversy, but as an outside movement I think it can be very successful.
Aura has given us a great example of why we need blogs like this. :)

indieFan

16-04-2016, 14:16

I think Josh's stated goals are to provide resources for everyone, with a emphasis on and perspective from the LGBT+ community. It may be a separate page, but its a resource everyone can utilize when trying to confront diversity issues. Would you say groups like NEMO (http://www.firstnemo.org) segregate non-engineer mentors from the rest of the FIRST community?

No, I don't view NEMO the same way. First, it is directly involved in FIRST. Second, many of the issues that are brought up are pertinent to the running of a team that engineering mentors aren't necessarily aware of. Third, I don't believe they started out as a group of people that felt disenfranchised. I believe it started as a group of people trying to figure out how they could contribute to teams and FIRST to advance the program.

Two other things is like to state:
1. I am an ally of LGBT+. I am only trying to raise questions about this idea to make people think about whether it truly is the best thing.
2. Instead of the logo being as it currently is, I'd suggest making it

LGBT+
in
FIRST

The way the logo currently appears, it seems as though this is an officially sanctioned FIRST concept/blog.

indieFan

16-04-2016, 14:21

Sorry but your comparision of racism, anti-semitism, and pro-life/choice to LGBT is completely off.

You can choose to not be one and the other is who you are....

That is why such a blog can be helpful

How exactly does one choose their race? How exactly does one choose to be Jewish if they were born into a Jewish family? Racism and anti-semitism are the rhetoric that disenfranchises people in the situations.

grstex

16-04-2016, 15:24

No, I don't view NEMO the same way. First, it is directly involved in FIRST. Second, many of the issues that are brought up are pertinent to the running of a team that engineering mentors aren't necessarily aware of. Third, I don't believe they started out as a group of people that felt disenfranchised. I believe it started as a group of people trying to figure out how they could contribute to teams and FIRST to advance the program.

Two other things is like to state:
1. I am an ally of LGBT+. I am only trying to raise questions about this idea to make people think about whether it truly is the best thing.
2. Instead of the logo being as it currently is, I'd suggest making it

LGBT+
in
FIRST

The way the logo currently appears, it seems as though this is an officially sanctioned FIRST concept/blog.

My only point was that groups like this aren't necessarily exclusionary. In college I was a member of the Society of Hispanic Professional Engineers, despite being a caucasian non-engineer major. I was welcomed with open arms and had a blast. That experience is what informs my perspective on such matters.

I hear your concern. At least one poster on this thread has expressed negative feelings about this idea. That's fine, its not for them. It's for people like the OP, and allies like you and me, if we choose to join.

TheModMaster8

17-04-2016, 15:32

And Aura can earn respect for her/his/their opinion when he/she/they can drop the anonymous status. You really can't blame this person for not wanting to revile their identity or team Info, it has come to a point in society these days, that if you don't except the politically "Correct" views, then you are labeled a homophobic/intolerant/racist/bigoted fool. it's sad to see this as, when they are only sharing their opinion as you all are sharing yours. if people weren't so thin skinned and could take some criticism from time to time, this world would be a little more calm.

My 2 cents on this matter.

TheModMaster8

17-04-2016, 15:54

First off, I would like to say that I love the blog idea. But, I would like to make a point after just listening to what Andy Baker had to say at the Indiana District Championship.

Those of you who are saying that FIRST is only about STEM couldn't be any further from what it truly is about. While you might only see students building robots and learning about STEM, you miss that we, as mentors, are trying to build better individuals. We teach them that sometimes failure is an inevitable step towards success. They need to understand that everything is not always going to going their way. Like any team, they need to learn to work together to achieve their goals. It's an application to the real world that you're not always going to like everyone that you work with. They learn to lean on and trust their teammates when they need to get through those tough times. A team, if built right, is like a family. True family will accept anyone for who they are, no matter what. To quote Dean Kamen off of the FIRST website, "FIRST is more than robots. The robots are a vehicle for students to learn important life skills. Kids often come in not knowing what to expect- of the program nor of themselves. They leave, even after the first season, with a vision, with confidence, and with a sense that they can create their own future."

So, we eventually get to this idea for an LGBT blog for fellow FIRSTers. I don't know if many of you have been paying attention to the real world, but some people are saying some pretty cruel things about their community. Young people see what these people are saying and some of them are from the LGBT community. They get scared that they won't be accepted because of who they are and that's just not right. So, if this blog helps even one student by letting them know that they are not alone and are strong enough, then it's a perfect idea. You know what, if you don't agree with it, that's totally fine, but don't go complaining about how it doesn't represent FIRST because it absolutely does. If you don't like the blog idea, don't read it! No one is going to force you to.

To conclude, I am going to call out anybody who wants to exclude people because of how they look, who they love, or what gender they are. We need the world to be a more accepting place, and if you're preaching the opposite, well, you're part of the problem.

I loved working with your guys team at competitions over the past 5 years and I have loads of respect for you all, and while I don't want to start and argument with you i also cant ignore it as well,

part in question: "We need the world to be a more accepting place, and if you're preaching the opposite, well, you're part of the problem"

couldn't your statement go the other way as well? until lately in society, the opposite was true was it not? Don't get me wrong, I don't hate or dislike people that are (whatever the politically correct term for LGBT is).

The other part in question:" They get scared that they won't be accepted because of who they are and that's just not right"

Who cares if you're excepted by others? as soon as you derive your happiness or joy/pleasures from others, is the same time you set yourself up for sadness and disappointment. if these people don't like you for who you are, then are they really people you would want for friends anyways? wouldn't you rather have someone that accepts you for who you are rather then someone who has been told that they must except others or they are racist, ext.? these are just my thoughts on this matter. and i hope to see you all at worlds.

Liam Fay

17-04-2016, 16:18

I loved working with your guys team at competitions over the past 5 years and I have loads of respect for you all, and while I don't want to start and argument with you i also cant ignore it as well,

part in question: "We need the world to be a more accepting place, and if you're preaching the opposite, well, you're part of the problem"

couldn't your statement go the other way as well? until lately in society, the opposite was true was it not? Don't get me wrong, I don't hate or dislike people that are (whatever the politically correct term for LGBT is).

The other part in question:" They get scared that they won't be accepted because of who they are and that's just not right"

Who cares if you're excepted by others? as soon as you derive your happiness or joy/pleasures from others, is the same time you set yourself up for sadness and disappointment. if these people don't like you for who you are, then are they really people you would want for friends anyways? wouldn't you rather have someone that accepts you for who you are rather then someone who has been told that they must except others or they are racist, ext.? these are just my thoughts on this matter. and i hope to see you all at worlds.

Seeking acceptance from others is part of human nature. To think that needing others is setting oneself up for sadness is very unhealthy and denies the facts about being human. The friend argument doesn't quite measure up, either. Sure, we'd rather have people that accept us for who we are. But what if we love robotics and don't want to have to leave?

mrnoble

17-04-2016, 16:19

You really can't blame this person for not wanting to revile their identity or team Info, it has come to a point in society these days, that if you don't except the politically "Correct" views, then you are labeled a homophobic/intolerant/racist/bigoted fool. it's sad to see this as, when they are only sharing their opinion as you all are sharing yours. if people weren't so thin skinned and could take some criticism from time to time, this world would be a little more calm.

My 2 cents on this matter.

Aura has remained anonymous through several rounds of posts in which he/she/they made comments they she/he/they said would not reflect well on their/her/his team (correctly so). Anonymity may have served a purpose for this person but it doesn't lend them any respectability.

Mr_Moko

17-04-2016, 16:22

I see that there is some confrontation on this thread, though that was to be expected in all honesty.
When making the initial post I expected some people to disagree with the idea of having this blog and just because they do that does not mean you should call them out on it.

As noble as it may be to retort to someone's negative remark I'd advise against it as I personally dislike watching people argue. We should just let everyone post their opinions, concerns and questions about this idea and let it be that.

-----------

On a very different note, there is a new logo which is most likely temporary. So any feedback on that would be appreciated!
MKII of logo HERE (http://imgur.com/a/SYlUK)

TheModMaster8

17-04-2016, 16:34

Seeking acceptance from others is part of human nature. To think that needing others is setting oneself up for sadness is very unhealthy and denies the facts about being human. The friend argument doesn't quite measure up, either. Sure, we'd rather have people that accept us for who we are. But what if we love robotics and don't want to have to leave?
Seeking acceptance comes in may forms, either through money, objects, friends or religion. so yes, in a way it is apart of human nature to find acceptance, however. i should have clarified my meaning of putting happiness in others, I meant putting happiness/acceptance in friendships will normaly fail given enough time.however you normal can find both of these in other forms of relationships, I.e spouse or your kids/parents, (these are normal the ones that last forever) as the saying goes. "friends come and go but family is forever." secondly I don't think I said anything about leaving, though i may be wrong. nor was/am I suggesting it. just because no one excepts your belief in sexuality, doesn't mean they don't except you. Not everyone will see eye to eye on certain matters, and sometimes this needs to be said during a conversation, it reminds both parties that you can still be friends even if you don't agree on certain matters.

TheModMaster8

17-04-2016, 16:42

Aura has remained anonymous through several rounds of posts in which he/she/they made comments they she/he/they said would not reflect well on their/her/his team (correctly so). Anonymity may have served a purpose for this person but it doesn't lend them any respectability.

Respect's definition varies depending upon the person in question. some may find respect in the fact that this person is going against what is now becoming the norm, others that disagree with the person's perspective and have no respect towards them. also it is truly sad and incorrectly wrong to hold everyone on a team accountable for the actions that one or a few have done, I'm sure you can see this in our society today can you not?

mrnoble

17-04-2016, 17:04

Respect's definition varies depending upon the person in question. some may find respect in the fact that this person is going against what is now becoming the norm, others that disagree with the person's perspective and have no respect towards them. also it is truly sad and incorrectly wrong to hold everyone on a team accountable for the actions that one or a few have done, I'm sure you can see this in our society today can you not?

Sifting through to understand your meaning. If you are asking whether it's okay for a team member to anonymously post negative things on CD (including other subjects besides LGBT, look at Aura's own history) with the stated purpose of the anonymity being that they will avoid consequences from the team and the community, then no. It's not okay.

asid61

17-04-2016, 17:09

Gregor

17-04-2016, 21:35

then you are labeled a homophobic/intolerant/racist/bigoted fool.

Typically it's the homophobes, intolerants, racists, and bigots that are labelled as homophobes, intolerants, racists, and bigots. Having an opinion and being one or more of those are not mutually exclusive. There's a difference between freely speaking your mind and actively trying to shut down conversation, the latter of which Aura is trying to do.

The other Gabe

17-04-2016, 22:04

Interested to see how this progresses. Definitely an issue about which I haven't heard too much

There is a time and a place to discuss various things. An event about Science and Technology just doesn't strike me as the right time and place for LGBT+ discussions.

The same would be true for racism, anti-semitism, pro-life/pro-choice, etc.

science does not exclude you from talking about other issues. no one should ever ignore other things just because it isn't their main focus. I'm a history major who is also an active FIRST volunteer. events about science and Technology have no relevance in my field.

Imagine if only scientists cared about global warming.

If you want to have a discussion about diversity and inclusion, shouldn't it be that we are all human and deserve similar opportunities? By creating separate blogs/posts/groups for each category, aren't you actually contributing to the lack of diversity and inclusion?

The issue with saying "we're all human" and "we all have issues" is that you're whitewashing those issues and ignoring them. What I have run into as a Jew is very different than the environment a homosexual, trans person, black person, etc. have experienced. trying to lump them all together removes our ability to understand how anti-semitism (and anti-Israeli sentiment, which is a huge issue right now) differs from racism differs from homophobia.

The thing that I believe that everyone is currently overlooking right now is how this topic irrelevant to the nature of FIRST. I believe this post is just to present an uproar in the FIRST community to unite over some pointless propaganda for a new blog.

It might just be possible that you're inciting more of an uproar by being so belligerent here. if you find it irrelevant, why bother to comment?

Zach O

17-04-2016, 22:23

Madison

17-04-2016, 22:40

Let's keep the discussion focused on the blog, please. The identity behind other, anonymous accounts is irrelevant to this discussion.

Mr_Moko

17-04-2016, 23:31

Hey Josh. I think this is a cool idea. These types of resources in FIRST/FRC are a fantastic way to provide support and community.

People that share my opinion also see the value in these types of communities. Minorities can often feel discouraged, underrepresented, discriminated, and excluded. These types of communities won't eliminate these these issues, but they're a great way to provide a sense of inclusion where it otherwise might be missing.

Like you said, the issues will almost certainly be there, and we hope to mitigate at least some of the issues in the long run. Hopefully this blog gets enough support so that such an accomplishment can be made!

Let's keep the discussion focused on the blog, please. The identity behind other, anonymous accounts is irrelevant to this discussion.

Thank you for agreeing with that.

hardcopi

18-04-2016, 00:24

Katie_UPS

18-04-2016, 00:39

We have never asked a student if they were gay, straight, black, white, male, female... none of that really matters. We have had LGBT students and it really was no big deal.

It would be awesome if we lived in a world where everyone was treated the same, and I know that you are trying to say that by focusing on what makes everyone different doesn't seem like it would help make the world an equal place.

But that's not how it always works. If you don't want to read the blog, then don't read it, but clearly some folks want this to exist. They're not making a corner of the internet that says "no straight or cis people allowed," they're just making a space where conversations about LGBT+ in FIRST can start.

Ignoring our differences won't make them go away, so we might as well try understanding how our differences change the way we experience things. This blog is a great way for the LGBT+ Community to share those experiences.

Also, if your team has been inclusive and a positive thing for those folks on your team, then that's great!

runneals

18-04-2016, 02:17

I think this is a great idea! I think students should start more of these types of communities to ally around each other, especially when they fall into the minority and sometimes tend to get steamrolled over when it comes to ideas, leadership, and decision making. If we could have more communities like what FIRST Ladies (http://www.ladiesinfirst.com/) is/are, that would be soooooooo cool! Have a community by students, for students.

trumpthero786

18-04-2016, 08:03

Carolyn_Grace

18-04-2016, 08:50

I've become friends with more LGBT+ FIRSTers over the years, and I'm very excited to see this blog. I am eager to read more about LGBT+ experiences in FIRST. I hope that this blog helps me become a better ally, mentor, and volunteer.

Even though FIRST emphasis is on STEM and robots, it's the people who are always most important in my opinion. And learning from a variety of people (especially those different from me) is a great way to become a better person. I find that when I surround myself by like-minded people, that I don't learn nearly as much as when I am around diversity.

I welcome this blog, and am eager to follow, learn, and support in anyway that I can. (I love editing, so if anyone ever wants me to edit their content, just shoot me a PM).

Chris is me

18-04-2016, 09:02

I'd love to hear more perspectives from straight cis people telling LGBT people their identities don't matter and that their struggles with inclusion and acceptance aren't valid, or that their very existence is a "political" issue that FIRST shouldn't even acknowledge. Please make more posts about this, it will really help all of us understand your uniquely informed position! This is sarcasm, please stop. If you can't be supportive, just move on.

---

In all seriousness, best of luck with the blog! Marginalized groups grow stronger and more supportive when they come together like this. I've known too many people who felt like they had to leave their identities at the door in order to be accepted on their robotics teams, and resources like this one will really help those students whom are finding themselves.

ajdoming

18-04-2016, 11:48

i should have clarified my meaning of putting happiness in others, I meant putting happiness/acceptance in friendships will normaly fail given enough time.however you normal can find both of these in other forms of relationships, I.e spouse or your kids/parents, (these are normal the ones that last forever) as the saying goes. "friends come and go but family is forever."

Unfortunately, there are many people for which "family is forever" doesn't apply. As young people likely to spend the next several years moving around and interacting with thousands of people I would discourage an attitude that 'friendship is fleeting'. If you cultivate and maintain your close friendships they can easily be lifelong and as fulfilling as familial relationships.

GabrielaH

18-04-2016, 13:44

Very glad to see this. Can't wait to see it's impact on creating an inclusive environment for the LGBT+ community in FIRST!

scoutitout

18-04-2016, 14:25

Here is my unwanted 2 cents on this. I don't like the idea, It seems to me that First's biggest draw (well one of them) is being inclusive. We have never asked a student if they were gay, straight, black, white, male, female... none of that really matters. We have had LGBT students and it really was no big deal.

I don't particularly care for separating out a group of students/mentors for any reason. I'd be against it if it were a group like: "First Democrats" or "First Republicans" or "First ????" We are one community, separating us out for any arbitrary reason is kinda against what I thought we were all working towards.

Rich.

I totally agree with this statement. I don't see any reason to separate out any group of kids. FIRST seems to be a pretty inclusive group and doesn't seem to have a major issue with discriminating. It is the same thing with girls in STEM events. I always feel awkward in those.

Besides if we have groups for LGBQ, shouldn't we have them for African Americans, Latinos, Native Americans, Christians, Muslims, Jews, whites, straights, and every other defining group? If we have it for one, others will follow with other groups. Instead of diverse teams and forums like CD, we get small forums such as mentioned above.

FIRST has been such a great organization to me because teams and youth focus on robots instead of all the political correctness everywhere. Please don't bring it here.

bombodail

18-04-2016, 14:33

I totally agree with this statement. I don't see any reason to separate out any group of kids. FIRST seems to be a pretty inclusive group and doesn't seem to have a major issue with discriminating. It is the same thing with girls in STEM events. I always feel awkward in those.

Besides if we have groups for LGBQ, shouldn't we have them for African Americans, Latinos, Native Americans, Christians, Muslims, Jews, whites, straights, and every other defining group? If we have it for one, others will follow with other groups. Instead of diverse teams and forums like CD, we get small forums such as mentioned above.

FIRST has been such a great organization to me because teams and youth focus on robots instead of all the political correctness everywhere. Please don't bring it here.

I completely agree with you, the last thing FIRST needs is to be taken over by SJWs. If people need issues to focus on, it should be issues that affect everyone such as climate change for example.

Carolyn_Grace

18-04-2016, 14:39

I totally agree with this statement. I don't see any reason to separate out any group of kids. FIRST seems to be a pretty inclusive group and doesn't seem to have a major issue with discriminating.

This quote would have been better if it ended with, "...that I know of."

Just because you do not see any issues, does not mean that they do not exist. This is called Cognitive Dissonance: when your beliefs do not necessarily align with something else that is true.

Your personal experience cannot speak for others. If LGBT+ FIRSTers say that this blog is something that would be useful to them, then who is anyone to say that it isn't needed?

It would be like someone saying, "I'm hungry. I'm going to eat this banana." And someone else replying, "You're not hungry. You don't need that banana." Who are you to tell someone else that they aren't hungry? That they don't need this support group?

I completely agree with you, the last thing FIRST needs is to be taken over by SJWs. If people need issues to focus on, it should be issues that affect everyone such as climate change for example.

So just because a group is focusing on one thing, doesn't mean that the people involved can't focus on another thing as well. Supporting a LGBT+ FIRST blog doesn't mean that you CAN'T support research on climate change. This is a red herring logical fallacy.

Chris is me

18-04-2016, 14:56

I completely agree with you, the last thing FIRST needs is to be taken over by SJWs. If people need issues to focus on, it should be issues that affect everyone such as climate change for example.

Acknowledging that LGBT+ people exist and should be treated fairly is neither "political correctness" nor "SJW" talk. You're making an active effort to silence marginalized groups because you would rather pretend they, and the struggles they face, don't exist. This is quite simply contrary to the spirit and mission of FIRST, which is to inspire and spread awareness of science and technology worldwide. How can we inspire the population in general if we ignore the calls of marginalized groups trying to stand up for themselves? FIRST is for everyone.

I'm biting my tongue here to prevent a side discussion about the loaded and problematic implications of "political correctness" and "SJW" as terms used to dismiss out of hand the concerns of everyone who isn't a straight cis white dude. I don't support their usage in this context, I'm just trying to frame the issue in terms the poster used and might understand

jweston

18-04-2016, 14:57

This sounds like a wonderful idea. Statistically speaking, all teams have LGBTQI people living in their communities. That includes your community whether you realize it or not. It is my hope that we all understand how valuable it is to diversify our teams if we want to fulfill our mission of spreading interest in STEM. Unfortuntely, there is still a lot of prejudice against and fear of non-heteronormative people in the world. This blog has the potential to help teams become better acquainted with LGBTQI people and understand some of the unique issues they face, especially issues that pertain to their participation on a team.

I wish you well in your effort to bring another resource to make FIRST one of the most inclusive communities in the world.

indieFan

18-04-2016, 15:39

Carolyn_Grace

18-04-2016, 15:40

Alan Anderson

18-04-2016, 15:44

Don't argue against the formation of a group just because you personally don't see a need for it. Yes, it would be great not to need it, but you're focusing on the goal to the exclusion of reality.

There are many applicable analogies. One of my favorites is a banquet table. Some people have, for whatever reason, received less food than others, or perhaps no food at all. There is a call for those people to be given food so that they do not go hungry. But anyone who tries to bring food to them specifically is stopped by others who proclaim that everyone deserves food, and nobody should get special treatment.

You might have all the food you need, and you might not believe that your situation is somehow privileged. But please don't let that belief lead you to think that you should stop people from giving food where it is wanted.

Akash Rastogi

18-04-2016, 15:51

Don't argue against the formation of a group just because you personally don't see a need for it. Yes, it would be great not to need it, but you're focusing on the goal to the exclusion of reality.

Bingo! Well said Alan.

Also, again, if you disagree with this so much and don't want to change your mind, ignore it and don't try to censor a public website.

Not everyone needs an advocate for them, but if there's even one kid or mentor who feels more comfortable in their own skin after reading a blog, is it really a bad thing?

A simple blog isn't ruining your experience of FIRST, stop pretending like it will.

Trump 4 Prez /s

bombodail

18-04-2016, 16:01

Acknowledging that LGBT+ people exist and should be treated fairly is neither "political correctness" nor "SJW" talk. You're making an active effort to silence marginalized groups because you would rather pretend they, and the struggles they face, don't exist. This is quite simply contrary to the spirit and mission of FIRST, which is to inspire and spread awareness of science and technology worldwide. How can we inspire the population in general if we ignore the calls of marginalized groups trying to stand up for themselves? FIRST is for everyone.

I'm biting my tongue here to prevent a side discussion about the loaded and problematic implications of "political correctness" and "SJW" as terms used to dismiss out of hand the concerns of everyone who isn't a straight cis white dude. I don't support their usage in this context, I'm just trying to frame the issue in terms the poster used and might understand

I support LGBTQ+ people 100%, I actually consider my self in one of the +. But I have never seen any issues regarding them, nor have I ever heard of any issues within FIRST. I understand that there are many issues outside of FIRST that they encounter, but I don't think those issues need to be at the forefront of FIRST. I have nothing against the existence of this blog either. However I just hope that FIRST does not turn into something where humans that are not members of of these discriminant groups do not feel discriminated against. It would all be better if people could just focus on the robots.

Dival

18-04-2016, 16:05

I am betting that in most teams homophobic jokes/phrases are told on a daily basis, and are passed. Really, homophobia is everywhere, just try to pay some attention...

Yes, it is important to discuss about LGBTs in FIRST just as much as it is important to discuss it in the context of any other educational program, especially one which requires an extensive amount of team, and in which being able to trust your fellow twam members /mentors is essential.

Basel A

18-04-2016, 16:07

I completely agree with you, the last thing FIRST needs is to be taken over by SJWs. If people need issues to focus on, it should be issues that affect everyone such as climate change for example.

I find it difficult to take seriously anyone who uses the phrase "SJW," but I'll give it a go. These individual communities, whether FIRST Ladies or NEMO or whatever else, provide something to FIRSTers. Whether that's support or a forum to vent about negative experiences, I can't imagine why you would care. If it pertained to you, you'd probably understand why it's needed. And if it's not needed, then it'll go unused, and frankly that's a good outcome. If LGBT+ folks are getting the support they need without this blog, then that's fantastic. The OP, who has personal experience in this, does not feel that that's currently the case. You don't have personal experience in needing such support, so I'd recommend that you don't butt in and tell other people what they do or don't need.

indieFan

18-04-2016, 16:09

A simple blog isn't ruining your experience of FIRST, stop pretending like it will.

Nobody has pretended that it will. Just because we ask questions and challenge what people's initial response is doesn't make us "fatalists" for lack of a better term right now. (If someone has a better term, please provide it.)

Sperkowsky

18-04-2016, 16:10

Can someone please list some of the issues that affect the LGBT+ members within the FIRST and/or STEM contexts that would be addressed by this blog?

I'm trying to understand how it fits in, but still have no clue.
I emailed the op asking if there were any particular issues and he said he personally has not experienced any negative experience because of his orientation. He said the blog isn't going to be about normal first things per se and more about the experiences of being lgbt+ in First. I think we should all hold any judgement until the blog atleast actually becomes active. And remember you do not have to read it.

When I started F4 (a student run livestream) I got a ton of backlash from mentors and students alike saying the idea of this was stupid and unnecessary. Although I disagree about the stupid part I agree that it's not necessary. But neither is chiefdelphi, r/frc, gamesense, fun, Nemo, ect. First could 100% survive without any of these resources but It would be a pretty boring lack luster without them.

Jon K.

18-04-2016, 16:11

Can someone please list some of the issues that affect the LGBT+ members within the FIRST and/or STEM contexts that would be addressed by this blog?

I'm trying to understand how it fits in, but still have no clue.

I would like for you to read these quotes:

Like most academic and research institutions in the US, the overwhelming majority of the lead researchers in the museum department where I did my research were white cis-gendered (a term used to describe people who identify with the gender they were assigned at birth) heterosexual men. Growing up in the Midwest as a mixed-race, gay, Jewish, boyish girl, I never saw myself reflected in any of the science teachers I had, and struggled to visualize myself in a career in science.

Most people in science don’t intend to make life difficult to for trans researchers, but there are still many barriers, both systematic and cultural, to recruiting and sustaining the next generation of transgender scientists.

from this wired article. (http://www.wired.com/2015/12/science-needs-to-do-a-better-supporting-trans-scientists/)

This shows that while you may not understand why a blog like this is needed, many who would otherwise choose STEM fields choose to not pursue them because they feel ostracized and have no role models to look up to. This is not just true of trans people, but of all people. That is why groups supporting women, minorities, etc in STEM exist. It is to help the marginalized realize that there were trailblazers before them and to have mentors and leaders to look up to.

Many in FIRST look up to Dean, Dr. Flowers, and all of the WFFA and WFA winners because they all inspire us in one way or another. The LGBTQ+ community deserves to have these role models as well, and while many may not be as visible as a WFA winner, or Dean or Dr. Flowers, if a blog like this has the potential to provide that inspiration, and if for no other reason, isn't that good enough?

Madison

18-04-2016, 16:18

I'll start!

1. People posting on Chief Delphi, questioning why a blog like this is needed.

2. I'd be a lot happier if there was a visible, vibrant community of LGBTQ FIRST participants I could point to when approached about the subject by students on my team.

I'll proudly wear the badge of Social Justice Warrior (SJW, for the uninitiated). You may think I'm taking over FIRST, but chances are I've been around since most of y'all were born.

Akash Rastogi

18-04-2016, 16:23

Nobody has pretended that it will. Just because we ask questions and challenge what people's initial response is doesn't make us "fatalists" for lack of a better term right now. (If someone has a better term, please provide it.)

I was actually referring to the student who mentioned she wanted to keep "political correctness" out of her FIRST experience, not you.

I am also not part of the LGBQT community, but I have plenty of friends who are and thought this was a cool idea.

Look, I don't see this harming anyone. I guess that's my real point.

Mr_Moko

18-04-2016, 16:31

I would like to thank everyone who has been discussing on this thread thus far, whether it's support or even criticism!

I can understand the worries of some people that this would just be a division for LGBT+ members of FIRST and those who are not, but the idea (like a few other projects) is to be a community that lives organically in FIRST. Let's face it, FRC consumes a lot of time for anyone involved and we love it! So a place for people that are underrepresented to touch base within community that is such a large part of all of our lives is important to us.

With all of that said it's not just for LGBT+ members of our community either! It's for all the allies and those who wish to do a better job at making this wonderful community even better than it is! We intend to do our best to do our best to provide as many resources for everyone in FIRST as possible.

For Mentors we'll provide as much as we can so you can make your teams a fun, safe and inclusive space for everyone.
For Students we'll provide as much as we can so you can feel welcomed in FIRST and have a place where you know people will support you no matter who you are.
For FIRST as a whole we'll be doing our best to make it a community that no one feels left out in.

Making even just one person feel safe and included in FIRST is how we know that we have succeeded.
Making just one team more accepting is how we know that we have succeeded.

We're all part of FIRST and that means that we're family, while you don't have to love every person in your family you should respect them and make them feel welcomed and safe.

Liam Fay

18-04-2016, 18:14

Can someone please list some of the issues that affect the LGBT+ members within the FIRST and/or STEM contexts that would be addressed by this blog?

I'm trying to understand how it fits in, but still have no clue.

Happily. A lot of these are just little things that pile up. One great thing a blog bringing light to these things could do is make people realize that they were unintentionally harming others and stop.

1. The use of the phrase "that's gay". Unless you are pointing at a gay wedding, that phrase gives a sense of negativity to being gay. If I see someone call something bad "gay", how will that affect my perception of myself?

2. Hotel rooms (and other methods of grouping) for those in the trans community. Sticking trans kids in a separate room because you can't figure out where they belong gives a sense of otherness.

3. FIRST is also an avenue through which to break the stereotypes that gay men are "fairies" and are not engineers, in the same way that FIRST has inspired many young women to follow their dreams.

Caleb Sykes

18-04-2016, 18:35

Hotel rooms (and other methods of grouping) for those in the trans community. Sticking trans kids in a separate room because you can't figure out where they belong gives a sense of otherness.

What would be a better course of action in this scenario?

Liam Fay

18-04-2016, 19:51

What would be a better course of action in this scenario?

I unfortunately can't give you a perfect answer, but I can say that a LGBT+ FIRST blog would certainly open it up for discussion and give people who might have a better solution a voice.

Mr_Moko

18-04-2016, 20:00

What would be a better course of action in this scenario?

Putting them I'm a room with the gender they identify as would br much better.

My friend (and co-founder of the blog) had to be stuck in his own room because he's trans and his school/the parents of his team saw him as a liability.
This is extremely unfair to separate people just because of their gender, is it not?

indieFan

18-04-2016, 20:20

I unfortunately can't give you a perfect answer, but I can say that a LGBT+ FIRST blog would certainly open it up for discussion and give people who might have a better solution a voice.

Why would a thread on CD not serve the same purpose?

Liam Fay

18-04-2016, 20:23

Why would a thread on CD not serve the same purpose?

It could! But threads on CD come and go, and it would just make sense to have a website dedicated to the discussion of all of these topics.

sean-from-5113

18-04-2016, 20:47

My friend (and co-founder of the blog) had to be stuck in his own room because he's trans and his school/the parents of his team saw him as a liability.

Imagine hearing all your friends giggling in their hotel rooms while you are alone and lying awake. No one on the team wanted me to room by myself, my mentors didn't want me by myself, but at the end of the day, the school administration decided for me. I wasn't told about my rooming situation until the day of.

TheModMaster8

18-04-2016, 20:59

Unfortunately, there are many people for which "family is forever" doesn't apply. As young people likely to spend the next several years moving around and interacting with thousands of people I would discourage an attitude that 'friendship is fleeting'. If you cultivate and maintain your close friendships they can easily be lifelong and as fulfilling as familial relationships.

I know this, it is truly sad. I'm also not saying that you shouldn't try and make fiends, ("in friendships will normally fail given enough time") what I am saying though, is that most (Meaning if you have 10 friends, most likely you will have no more then 1-2 out of the 10 in 1-10 years)that you are still in contact with. and if you have a healthy relationship with your children/parents/siblings you will have that friendship forever.

indieFan

18-04-2016, 21:12

It could! But threads on CD come and go, and it would just make sense to have a website dedicated to the discussion of all of these topics.

Then explain to me how a blog works. I was under the impression that they are not designed for discussion.

Mr_Moko

18-04-2016, 21:19

Then explain to me how a blog works. I was under the impression that they are not designed for discussion.

You are correct when you say blogs are not the best when it comes to discussion. The blog is a way to share with the community.
For discussion on the other hand, we currently have a Discord server in the works to see how that can help interaction with other staff members and just anyone interested in communicating with one another!

cadandcookies

18-04-2016, 22:23

You are correct when you say blogs are not the best when it comes to discussion. The blog is a way to share with the community.
For discussion on the other hand, we currently have a Discord server in the works to see how that can help interaction with other staff members and just anyone interested in communicating with one another!

A blog is also valuable in that it demands nothing except the attention of the reader. It can take time for people to become confident enough to actually share their experiences with others. Seeing other people share their similar experiences can provide validation to one's own experiences.

You don't need to present a complete "fix" all at once-- one blog that talks about LGBT+ experiences in FIRST is better than the zero blogs we had yesterday, even if it isn't a perfect blog and even if some people dislike or resent the fact that it exists.

For all of you out there questioning the need or purpose of this blog, I'd ask you to take a step back. It exists because some people felt strongly enough to make it exist. Trust them a little bit and see what they have to say-- we can all learn from the wildly diverse experiences of others.

indieFan

18-04-2016, 23:44

I am going to bow out of this thread now as I have been told privately that, "You are coming across as nitpicking for no reason." My intention was never to nitpick, but to question and challenge respectfully.

Alan Anderson

19-04-2016, 03:14

Why would a thread on CD not serve the same purpose?

Mostly because of people who jump in to question the whole concept and try to convince others that it is not a useful topic of discussion.

Road Rash

19-04-2016, 05:56

MysterE

19-04-2016, 09:25

Imagine hearing all your friends giggling in their hotel rooms while you are alone and lying awake. No one on the team wanted me to room by myself, my mentors didn't want me by myself, but at the end of the day, the school administration decided for me. I wasn't told about my rooming situation until the day of.

This - this, my friends, is the reason that these issues have to be discussed. I remember when I received a call from a parent who had a student that was trying to understand their sexuality.

"Is it ok that they stay in a room with someone of their same gender - especially if they are attracted to them?"

This question, asked by a parent trying to understand their own child, is only the beginning.

I have had students on my team from a large spectrum of the LGBT+ community, from the student seeking to understand their gender to students who had been gay for years. There is one thing that they have in common - they all have experienced some form of discrimination, bullying, or prejudice. They have had to suffer under ignorance and fear. They have had to hear their lifestyle choice used as an obscenity or as a description of something that is 'stupid' or 'wrong'.

FIRST is NOT just about robotics. It is about the growth of leaders - of Gracious Professionals that understand how to deal with differences with grace and with a lack of ignorance. It is to expand on the idea that everyone should have a superhero in STEM; someone that they can look to and say "There is someone who is like me and is successful." It is not an organization that avoids issues but one that should run to them because the best innovation happens when there is clarity, transparency, and understanding.

Whether it is by blog or by talking among our own teams, I think it is incumbent on FIRST teams as incubators of innovation and designers of leaders to help create people who can adapt to social changes with understanding and skill.

After all, when any student is isolated because of a difference - because of race, gender, social beliefs, or ideological concepts - we all lose.

Thanks.
Daniel.

FrankJ

19-04-2016, 10:55

Mostly because of people who jump in to question the whole concept and try to convince others that it is not a useful topic of discussion.

Judging by the length of the thread, I would say that it is a useful discussion topic. Or at the very least a popular one.

nrgy_blast

19-04-2016, 11:36

Putting them I'm a room with the gender they identify as would be much better.

My friend (and co-founder of the blog) had to be stuck in his own room because he's trans and his school/the parents of his team saw him as a liability.
This is extremely unfair to separate people just because of their gender, is it not?

No, it's not unfair. My team treats students just as we would junior coworkers in a professional environment. That means avoiding any potential interpersonal issues before they arise, if at all possible. This includes intentionally rooming guys/girls in separate rooms, keeping students that don't get along very well separated, and addressing any other potential issue with the least amount of conflict possible. FRC isn't here for social/sexual experimentation - it's here to begin developing our next generation of professionals and leaders.

Liam Fay

19-04-2016, 11:39

No, it's not unfair. My team treats students just as we would junior coworkers in a professional environment. That means avoiding any potential interpersonal issues before they arise, if at all possible. This includes intentionally rooming guys/girls in separate rooms, keeping students that don't get along very well separated, and addressing any other potential issue with the least amount of conflict possible. FRC isn't here for social/sexual experimentation - it's here to begin developing our next generation of professionals and leaders.
And these trans students aren't "experimenting". They're simply trying to express who they are.

Chris is me

19-04-2016, 11:43

FRC isn't here for social/sexual experimentation - it's here to begin developing our next generation of professionals and leaders.

What does placing people in rooms according to their identified gender have to do with sexual experimentation? Transgender students are not "social experiments" - they merely have a gender that does not match the one assigned to them at birth.

Ultimately, the entire practice of assigning rooms by gender is heteronormative and cisnormative, and it is difficult to get around these issues within the policies of many schools.

FrankJ

19-04-2016, 12:39

What does placing people in rooms according to their identified gender have to do with sexual experimentation? Transgender students are not "social experiments" - they merely have a gender that does not match the one assigned to them at birth.

Not to put words in Chris's mouth. But. I think what he was trying to say is what is essentially a youth field trip is not the place for sexual contact. LBGT, Hetro, ETC. In a perfect world everyone would conduct themselves in a professional manner. The reason why this thread is so long is that we don't live in a perfect world.

The other Gabe

19-04-2016, 12:52

LGBTQI

what does the "I" stand for? I haven't seen that one before

Not to put words in Chris's mouth. But. I think what he was trying to say is what is essentially a youth field trip is not the place for sexual contact. LBGT, Hetro, ETC. In a perfect world everyone would conduct themselves in a professional manner. The reason why this thread is so long is that we don't live in a perfect world.

being a Transgender person has nothing to do with sexual contact. it's a matter of feeling that the sex you were assigned at birth was not correct and wanting to be some other gender. People thinking it's about sex is part of the problem here - people's sense of identity should not be boiled down to worrying about them doin the do or whatever. When you think that people are just "acting trans" or whatever for the purpose of sex, you're marginalizing their valid feelings and opinions (sorry if this comes off as hostile or putting words in your mouth, I couldn't think of a better way to phrase it).

nrgy_blast

19-04-2016, 13:14

What does placing people in rooms according to their identified gender have to do with sexual experimentation? Transgender students are not "social experiments" - they merely have a gender that does not match the one assigned to them at birth.

Ultimately, the entire practice of assigning rooms by gender is heteronormative and cisnormative, and it is difficult to get around these issues within the policies of many schools.

If other students of the opposite(mechanical) gender aren't comfortable rooming rooming together, I'm not going to make them. Reaffirming my previous statement, I'm not going to assign anyone to stay with anyone else they're uncomfortable with, no matter the reason. Doing so would be a 'social experiment', and is not what FIRST is here for.

Carolyn_Grace

19-04-2016, 13:19

If other students of the opposite(mechanical) gender aren't comfortable rooming rooming together, I'm not going to make them. Reaffirming my previous statement, I'm not going to assign anyone to stay with anyone else they're uncomfortable with, no matter the reason. Doing so would be a 'social experiment', and is not what FIRST is here for.

No where in the personal story (quoted below) does it say that anyone would have been forced into a rooming situation that was uncomfortable except for the poster, who was forced into an uncomfortable rooming situation by being isolated.

Imagine hearing all your friends giggling in their hotel rooms while you are alone and lying awake. No one on the team wanted me to room by myself, my mentors didn't want me by myself, but at the end of the day, the school administration decided for me. I wasn't told about my rooming situation until the day of.

jweston

19-04-2016, 13:20

what does the "I" stand for? I haven't seen that one before

Intersex. It's alphabet soup. Normally I just say non-heteronormative but a lot of people don't know what that means.

being a Transgender person has nothing to do with sexual contact. it's a matter of feeling that the sex you were assigned at birth was not correct and wanting to be some other gender. People thinking it's about sex is part of the problem here - people's sense of identity should not be boiled down to worrying about them doin the do or whatever. When you think that people are just "acting trans" or whatever for the purpose of sex, you're marginalizing their valid feelings and opinions (sorry if this comes off as hostile or putting words in your mouth, I couldn't think of a better way to phrase it).

Room assignments should always come down to two things: 1) what the authorities will allow which sometimes is ignorant and suboptimal but still a reality; and 2) the comfort level of the students staying together as well as the confidence of the mentors that this assignment is not likely to turn into a problem. When we make our room assignments, we think about what the energy of that room is likely to be and try to optimize it to be comfortable and professional.

FrankJ

19-04-2016, 13:22

...being a Transgender person has nothing to do with sexual contact. it's a matter of feeling that the sex you were assigned at birth was not correct and wanting to be some other gender. People thinking it's about sex is part of the problem here - people's sense of identity should not be boiled down to worrying about them doin the do or whatever. When you think that people are just "acting trans" or whatever for the purpose of sex, you're marginalizing their valid feelings and opinions (sorry if this comes off as hostile or putting words in your mouth, I couldn't think of a better way to phrase it).

Point well taken. (i think) I didn't mean to imply that transgender people think about or act on their sexual desires anymore or less than anybody else. Fortunately for me, I don't do room assignments & besides expecting students and mentors follow the First code conduct, discipline is not one of my first order duties. But. For the mentors that do, inappropriate contact, parent demands are 2 of many issues they have to worry about. This is true regardless of orientation. It is not that they worry any less about hetero contact. Actually probably more so since statistically there is more of that.

nrgy_blast

19-04-2016, 13:37

No where in the personal story (quoted below) does it say that anyone would have been forced into a rooming situation that was uncomfortable except for the poster, who was forced into an uncomfortable rooming situation by being isolated.

And 'being isolated' is the default situation if no suitable assignments can be made. It's how many (if not most) big corporations travel, by default, and it's how we're forced to assign room if we can't resolve all of the issues, real or perceived.

dubiousSwain

19-04-2016, 15:16

If you're not careful, (and even if you are), FIRST can be a very lonely experience. It kills your social life outside of robotics, because after the 3rd or 4th "I can't, I have robotics" people stop asking. At least in my experience. YMMV.

Build season is spending 30-40 hours a week with the same 20 people. After a while you start to get sick of one another. You get caught up in robot building and forget to be friends.

But there's a pay-off. You finish the 6 weeks, you look at each other, and say "We did this, and we did this together". You get a break, and your friendship is stronger because you bent, but you didn't break.

For me, the real reward of robotics is the competitions. Its not only a testament to your skill, but to your teamwork. It takes a village to raise a child, but it takes a team to build a robot. That feeling of being a part of something greater, I don't know about you, but that's what I live for.

Now imagine if you didn't have any of that. Imagine if you gave your life to the team (and I know all of you have), and you finally decided that you could trust your comrades enough to tell them who you really were, and you were ostracized for it. You were quarantined because someone decided that you weren't the effort. No one wanted to make the effort to understand you, and you were punished for being yourself.

Isn't that what were are all in robotics for? Have we lost our identity? Remember how good it felt to finally find a sport that you identified with, that you were finally really good at. Imagine if Dean Kamen had decided to not start FIRST because he didn't want to "divide the athletic community". The whole point of our league is to be inclusive and disruptive.

Everyone who questions the "point" of this blog is questioning the "point" of FIRST. The blog is inclusive and disruptive. This blog is a microcosm for the culture shift we want to bring around in the world at large. Everyone arguing against this idea is arguing for the status quo, and I could imagine a thing further from the mission of FIRST.

Carolyn_Grace

19-04-2016, 15:38

And 'being isolated' is the default situation if no suitable assignments can be made. It's how many (if not most) big corporations travel, by default, and it's how we're forced to assign room if we can't resolve all of the issues, real or perceived.

You are taking a student's very real and personal story and making it about other people, about the status quo.

I understand, as a mentor and teacher, that we are held to following the laws of our state and the rules of our administration. But I hope that I never tell a student, "this is how the real world is, so suck it up, kid." Because that's how you sound with your justification.

I want students reading this to know that I'm listening. I'm sorry if you've ever felt isolated. I can't personally change the law, no matter how hard I try, my one vote only goes so far in the southern Midwest, but I will always try to hear you, to listen to you, and to do what I can to make you feel welcome and supported.

I will read this blog, read your stories, learn from you, and be a better mentor because of you. You give me hope. Your diversity brings me joy.

cadandcookies

19-04-2016, 15:53

A friend of mine (who is trans) did not feel comfortable posting in this thread, but asked me to post this for them:

Many of the reasons that mentors and other adults don't understand where to room trans students is they don't have a grasp on what it is to be transgender. The first step to creating a team environment that makes it safe enough for LGBT+ students to come out without fear of being ostracized or discriminated against by mentors and team members is learning what LGBT+ people go through. The vocal opponents of this thread (even if not many) deter me even more from outing myself fully in the FIRST community; especially because they are SO DETERMINED to discredit my experiences and their intersection within FIRST. It's obvious by the way this conversation is going that this blog is a necessity, and I applaud the students who felt safe and empowered enough to create and promote it.

Personally, it's a bit disappointing to me that there are still people out there who feel uncomfortable sharing who they are with our community. We can still do better, even if we've come a long way.

Liam Fay

19-04-2016, 16:00

A friend of mine (who is trans) did not feel comfortable posting in this thread, but asked me to post this for them

This right here should be evidence enough that we need a (forgive me for using the politically charged word) safe space for people to share their experiences.

Madison

19-04-2016, 16:52

Mr_Moko

19-04-2016, 17:33

A friend of mine (who is trans) did not feel comfortable posting in this thread, but asked me to post this for them:

Seeing this makes me quite sad and I agree with Liam about this being one of reasons why this blog was started.
FIRST is supposed to be a place for everyone to feel accepted as well as a place to get students into the field of STEM

--------------------------------------

I find it interesting to see everyone's views on this, even if it's not something that I exactly agree with
Just remember to try and keep things civil and do your best to respect people's opinions.

--------------------------------------

Just a note: We'll be going through staff applications over the next few days, so if anyone wants to apply you should do so now!
App HERE (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/16f-vKnHCDn6acwmWr0NcHG57hvJgDlSYdf56ttWsnXs/viewform)

bduddy

19-04-2016, 17:34

Four men are meant to share a hotel room. One of them is black. Another is an unrepentant racist.

Who do you move?I move the racist out of whatever organization I'm an administrator for.

MooreteP

19-04-2016, 17:50

Four men are meant to share a hotel room. One of them is black. Another is an unrepentant racist.

Who do you move?

Madison, I think this is a more relevant situation:
My Post from the Making STEM a better place for women thread:

How do you handle room assignments on a field trip to a travel competition when students are openly LBGTQ?
We usually packed 4 students to a room.
When their sexual orientation would be taken into account, the math became more expensive.

The students were cool about it, but us mentors were befuddled.

I am assuming that being an "unrepentant racist" is a lifestyle choice. :)
You have a binary solution here: Get two rooms. Two team members in each.
But when you have a panoply of situations as has been elucidated here, you may need to get separate rooms for every member of the team.

Fortunately, the students of the 2010's are far more understanding of identities and boundaries than my generation.

Just make sure that us mentors discuss the room assignments, individually, with each student beforehand.
This may maintain a status quo, keep lodging costs down, and hopefully lead to a relatively cohesive team dynamic. (Not the inevitable Robot Romances)

I never thought I would see this discussed on CD, but I think I am glad it has happened.

Thank you Mr_Moko

Mr_Moko

19-04-2016, 19:47

Thank you Mr_Moko

Personally I don't believe that I should receive any thanking for the project. For me it's simply a matter of giving back to a community that I love and has given a lot to me.

I appreciate being thanked, though in my opinion the support that we'll be working on giving people is what I see as thanks enough. Helping one person feel more welcomed will make me beyond elated.

I hope that makes sense and didn't sound too rambly

Van.Augur

19-04-2016, 23:03

As a believer that an individual of the LGB+ community deserves all the rights of any other individual, I don't see an issue with the blog. I hope it's expected that all FIRST teams are accepting of people of any orientation/gender/identity/etc. On my team, things of that nature have never really been an issue for anybody. On our team, everybody generally judges our members by their character and how they positively contribute to the team. So long as you contribute positively to the team and are a decent person (and keep your grades up), we love you! It doesn't really matter to the team whether you're gay, straight, bisexual, transgender, etc. I think judgement on any other basis would be inappropriate, ungracious, and unprofessional.

While I don't think that the LGB issue is any more or less important to FIRST than it would be to any other organization, that doesn't mean it's not worth talking about as needed. I couldn't see a issue with starting a blog about it. That being said, the issue is inherently socio-political (it is, by definition, a political issue). Some people would rather not get tangled up in such politics, so I can also understand people's desires to not delve any deeper than absolutely necessary.

I hope that the accepting atmosphere that I have experienced through the dozens of teams I have encountered during my time in FIRST continues to give any and all dedicated students an opportunity to find fulfillment.

Jaci

20-04-2016, 04:54

I'm glad this project is starting up, and hopefully it becomes a useful resource to both students and mentors alike. As a trans person, I feel this is very important to help teams become more accepting, understanding and progressive. I put my full support behind this effort (and many others such as FIRST Ladies), and hope to see it become a resource utilised by many teams, students and volunteers.

nrgy_blast

20-04-2016, 15:21

Four men are meant to share a hotel room. One of them is black. Another is an unrepentant racist.

Who do you move?

Pretty straight forward. I don't move anyone. I remove the racist from the team.

Chris is me

20-04-2016, 15:50

Pretty straight forward. I don't move anyone. I remove the racist from the team.

... so following that same logic, do you move the trans person out of the room or do you remove the transphobe from the team? What's the difference in this scenario? They are both issues of comfort level that are fundamentally rooted in prejudice.

anonymous123

20-04-2016, 16:34

Four men are meant to share a hotel room. One of them is black. Another is an unrepentant racist.

Who do you move?
I'm not sure that I understand how this question is pertinent to the conversation, Madison. The skin color you are born with is not a choice, and the law does not prevent students of different skin colors from sharing a hotel room. The law does prevent students of different sexes from sharing a hotel room.

I do not know how you categorize students who choose to identify with the opposite sex of the body they were born with. Maybe you should go by what their government-issued ID says, or their birth certificate, or what the records kept by the school district indicate. The last thing you want is a student with a male body, but who identifies as a female, sharing a room with female students. This is a recipe for disaster, and, as a parent I would not be comfortable putting my daughter in this situation.

My bottom line is that I don't really care what a student's sexual orientation/identity, race, gender, or ethnicity is, as long as they contribute to the team in a meaningful way. Any person (student or mentor) who does not contribute, or worse, hinders other students from contributing (doesn't matter to me if they are a distraction, a bully, or making another student feel uncomfortable/unaccepted) should be dealt with swiftly and appropriately. We should all be treated equally, and with respect.

The constitution protects our rights to think whatever we please, and to express those thoughts and opinions, regardless of which side of the debate our views lie. It does not protect our actions, especially when those actions infringe on another citizen's rights. It is your protected right to blog about LBGT+ people in FIRST. It is my protected right to share my thoughts and opinions about your blog in a respectful manner. It is unfortunate that this thread has deteriorated into a flurry of arguments, personal attacks, and nonacceptance of other's views. Chief Delphi is not an appropriate place for this type of behavior (regardless if you are a student or an adult mentor).

That being said, I wish you the best of luck with your blog, Mr_Moko.

I choose to keep my post anonymous on this thread because, like many of the LGBT+ people here, I am fearful of the backlash and actions that might be taken against me by those who do not agree with me, if they were to know my true identity. It sends a bad message about acceptance when there are people who are obviously not accepting (or at least tolerant) of those of us with opposing views on this subject.

Madison

20-04-2016, 16:51

I'm not sure that I understand how this question is pertinent to the conversation, Madison. The skin color you are born with is not a choice, and the law does not prevent students of different skin colors from sharing a hotel room. The law does prevent students of different sexes from sharing a hotel room.

I do not know how you categorize students who choose to identify with the opposite sex of the body they were born with. Maybe you should go by what their government-issued ID says, or their birth certificate, or what the records kept by the school district indicate. The last thing you want is a student with a male body, but who identifies as a female, sharing a room with female students. This is a recipe for disaster, and, as a parent I would not be comfortable putting my daughter in this situation.

The scenario I laid out purposefully draws a comparison between a person's skin color and their sexuality or gender identity. I believe, unequivocally, that those characteristics are as immutable as one's skin color. Further, I believe that a trans person should be treated as one would anyone else who shares the same gender identity (and, more generally, that treating people differently based on gender is an absurd concept on its face).

I don't agree with the supposition that the scenario you describe above is a recipe for disaster. You are valuing the discomfort you feel about placing your daughter in that situation above the discomfort the trans person feels when they are treated as something different than they are. I don't think that's fair and that was the point I was trying to make with my initial comparison. Too often, we consider the experiences of LGBTQ people to be something other than normal and we inconvenience them, to put it mildly, in service of allaying our own misgivings.

Basel A

20-04-2016, 16:53

Michael Corsetto

20-04-2016, 17:22

I have a few questions:

Any mentors have advice on best practices to develop environment conducive towards inclusion of minorities (and specifically LGBT+ students)?
Any mentors familiar with common public school policies surrounding these topics?
Any mentors have "do's" and "do not's" surrounding these topics they would be willing to share?
I've seen theoretical hotel assignment predicaments brought up in this thread. Any mentors willing to share their methods for approaching these scenarios? (actual experience is preferred here!)
If hotel assignments are a "red herring" in these conversations, are there other "real" challenges towards inclusiveness/equity that mentors face when serving LGBT+ students?

I'm really hoping to be better educated and aware so I can serve my student base as competently as possible.

From what I understand, this new blog will primarily be a blog by students. And that is awesome! I'm just hoping for some more resources/experiences from mentor perspectives, so that the rest of us "oldies" can grow as well :D

-Mike

Liam Fay

20-04-2016, 17:33

I do not know how you categorize students who choose to identify with the opposite sex of the body they were born with. Maybe you should go by what their government-issued ID says, or their birth certificate, or what the records kept by the school district indicate. The last thing you want is a student with a male body, but who identifies as a female, sharing a room with female students. This is a recipe for disaster, and, as a parent I would not be comfortable putting my daughter in this situation.

I do not understand how this is a recipe for disaster. In putting a female student who was born male in a room with two cisgendered females, you are just having three women sharing a room.

Contrary to what some might think, trans folk are NOT perverts claiming to be the opposite sex just to... whatever. By not allowing a MtF woman to be like the rest of the girls is telling her that she is different, she is unwanted, that she cannot be the only thing she is comfortable being.

jweston

20-04-2016, 17:33

I'm not sure that I understand how this question is pertinent to the conversation, Madison. The skin color you are born with is not a choice, and the law does not prevent students of different skin colors from sharing a hotel room. The law does prevent students of different sexes from sharing a hotel room.

I do not know how you categorize students who choose to identify with the opposite sex of the body they were born with. Maybe you should go by what their government-issued ID says, or their birth certificate, or what the records kept by the school district indicate. The last thing you want is a student with a male body, but who identifies as a female, sharing a room with female students. This is a recipe for disaster, and, as a parent I would not be comfortable putting my daughter in this situation.

This stems from one of the great misunderstandings of the LGBTQI community: this isn't about what you see on the outside but what people feel on the inside. You can't see feelings. The person has to tell you and you have to listen to understand.

anonymous123, I appreciate your honesty and sincerity about your feelings. It is only very, very, _very_ recently that mainstream society has begun to reconsider the common, but ugly and false, view of transgender people as defective and/or deceptive. We're all at the mercy of our socialization.

But you would also do well to take transgender people at their word that they are effectively people who are trapped in a biological body that does not match how they feel about their gender. Saying that putting a transfemale in with a room of cis females is the same as putting a male in a room of cis females is plain untrue.

And all of this assumes that the people in question are heterosexual and would feel that their privacy would be violated by having to room with a member of the opposite sex. As I've said before, you have to take into account the general energy of the room as determined by the individuals.

FlamingSpork

20-04-2016, 17:42

I have a few questions:

I've seen theoretical hotel assignment predicaments brought up in this thread. Any mentors willing to share their methods for approaching these scenarios? (actual experience is preferred here!)

On my team, our lead programmer is biologically male but identifies as (and is considered by her friends to be) female. Under our school's policies, she is considered male and was placed in a room with male students.

I am a student on the team, so I have no knowledge of the full policy, only how it was implemented in this instance.

This took place in conservative Western New York, where attitudes toward LGBTQ+ people stray behind those in other parts of the nation (but are still ahead of some others).

Jaci

21-04-2016, 00:40

I've seen theoretical hotel assignment predicaments brought up in this thread. Any mentors willing to share their methods for approaching these scenarios? (actual experience is preferred here!)

I'm a student mentor this year, and I shared some of my experience with room assignment in this thread. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1572534#post1572534) Sitting down with the students and asking them who they want to room with and checking if it's within the laws that govern you is the best option.

FrankJ

21-04-2016, 08:57

From Jaci's referenced threadThe Australian department of education's laws defining room arrangements on school trips has a good way of dealing with situations like mine, and I am fairly certain the same system is employed in the US, although you will have to do some research of your own to confirm that. Basically, you can stay with pretty much anyone in your rough age group (i.e. both under 18, or one under 18 and one above 18 if you've known each other closely for more than 2 years) as long as the following conditions are met:

1) All people(s) staying together agree to it
2) All people(s) staying together's parents agree to it
3) Parents agree on the rules that they set out (i.e. no exposure, sleep in different beds, whatever they deem necessary)
4) Students agree to follow these rules and know that if any of them are broken, what the consequences are.
5) None of it is illegal

Unfortunately the rules in the US generally aren't that logical. You have 50 states, all with variations, the federal government is starting to get involved. So you have administrations fall back to zero tolerance like policies.

Jaci

21-04-2016, 09:01

From Jaci's referenced thread

Unfortunately the rules in the US generally aren't that logical. You have 50 states, all with variations, the federal government is starting to get involved. So you have administrations fall back to zero tolerance like policies.

This is why I put the whole "although you will have to do some research of your own" segment. If the law forbids it, that's one thing, but if a person with duty of care says no because "it's just easier that way", that's something else entirely.

Carolyn_Grace

21-04-2016, 09:11

This is why I put the whole "although you will have to do some research of your own" segment. If the law forbids it, that's one thing, but if a person with duty of care says no because "it's just easier that way", that's something else entirely.

Also, there's a human component to take into consideration.

Yes, you must follow the law. But when following the law, mentors can respectfully take time to listen to their students, discuss the situation, and make sure that the students still feel valued, as opposed to dismissed.

FrankJ

21-04-2016, 09:26

Also, there's a human component to take into consideration.

Yes, you must follow the law. But when following the law, mentors can respectfully take time to listen to their students, discuss the situation, and make sure that the students still feel valued, as opposed to dismissed.

Also the time to be starting this conversation is early in the season, not when the mentor is scurring to make all the arrangements two weeks before worlds. (We like many teams didn't qualify until week 7) :]

nrgy_blast

21-04-2016, 11:26

... so following that same logic, do you move the trans person out of the room or do you remove the transphobe from the team? What's the difference in this scenario? They are both issues of comfort level that are fundamentally rooted in prejudice.

"Racist" implies that there was some sort of disrespectful or harassing behavior occurring to allow you to identify this individual as a racist to begin with, hence, the removal of this individual from the team. The "transphobe" situation is different (seeing as how they're still on the team implies you're using the term to describe someone who is uncomfortable rooming with some of the opposite sex that identifies with as the same sex as opposed to someone who has regularly been disrespectful or harassing to others). That said, people of the same sex are generally roomed together, unless there is some sort of known issue or incompatibility. People of the opposite sex are not roomed together, no matter their gender. Push comes to shove, the whole travel team could end up in individual rooms.

Kevin Sevcik

21-04-2016, 12:30

People of the opposite sex are not roomed together, no matter their gender. Push comes to shove, the whole travel team could end up in individual rooms.I wrote up a whole post about this, but I hate it when people make LGBT+ entirely about what people spend <1% of their lives doing with their bits. So instead, I'm first going to ask:

Why is it a hard and fast rule that people of opposite physical gender are not roomed together? Exactly what goal is this meant to accomplish?

nrgy_blast

21-04-2016, 13:55

I wrote up a whole post about this, but I hate it when people make LGBT+ entirely about what people spend <1% of their lives doing with their bits. So instead, I'm first going to ask:

Why is it a hard and fast rule that people of opposite physical gender are not roomed together? Exactly what goal is this meant to accomplish?

<1%, you say? Good point, definitely shouldn't separate anyone based on any sexual attribute.

anonymous123

21-04-2016, 14:18

The scenario I laid out purposefully draws a comparison between a person's skin color and their sexuality or gender identity. I believe, unequivocally, that those characteristics are as immutable as one's skin color. Further, I believe that a trans person should be treated as one would anyone else who shares the same gender identity (and, more generally, that treating people differently based on gender is an absurd concept on its face).

I don't agree with the supposition that the scenario you describe above is a recipe for disaster. You are valuing the discomfort you feel about placing your daughter in that situation above the discomfort the trans person feels when they are treated as something different than they are. I don't think that's fair and that was the point I was trying to make with my initial comparison. Too often, we consider the experiences of LGBTQ people to be something other than normal and we inconvenience them, to put it mildly, in service of allaying our own misgivings.

And that is the fundamental point where we disagree, Madison. I do not (can not) know what it feels like to be "trapped in a man's body", to “have no choice”. If I showed up to a FIRST event in a dress, to me, I would feel like nothing more than a man wearing a dress. I would still have a man's body, underneath the dress. To me, I would still be a man. Until I made the choice to undergo a complete physical change to transform my body, I do not think I could feel like a woman, and I would not identify myself as a woman until the transformation was complete. For me to do this would be my choice. Unlike some, I do not know what it feels like to "not have a choice". What I know about how I feel determines my stance on this issue, and the way I see it, it seems to me like a choice. I think that the best way I to determine gender of a person is to use the gender of a person's body. This is just my opinion, and it likely won't change until I see scientific fact that proves otherwise. I hope that my explanation can help everyone else to understand my thought process in reaching my opinion and my point of view on this.

Agreed Madison, there is no reason to treat people differently based on their gender (or any other aspect of their appearance). However, the societal norm regularly draws gender lines, for example, gender-specific restrooms. How do you feel about sharing a public restroom with everyone, not just women?

Maybe instead of "recipe for disaster", I should have phrased it "lawsuit waiting to happen". As adult mentors, liable for the well-being and safety of the students that we chaperon, it just doesn't seem like a good position put ourselves, or the students we look out for, in. It would definitely make me very uncomfortable to be in a situation like that. And yes, I value the well-being of myself and my family above that of others around me, regardless of the gender, race, ethnicity, or sexual orientation of those around me. Don't we all?

Kevin Sevcik

21-04-2016, 14:44

<1%, you say? Good point, definitely shouldn't separate anyone based on any sexual attribute.The problem here is that without knowing the reasoning behind such a rule, it's hard to explain why it might be problematic and counter-productive. I mean, maybe it's a perfectly appropriate rule that efficiently achieves its goal and I'm just unclear on the intended goal. Anonymous123 says going outside that rule is a "lawsuit waiting to happen". What would this lawsuit be about? We're all FIRSTers here, gimme a blue box on that "No opposite sexes rooming together" rule.

Chris is me

21-04-2016, 14:53

And that is the fundamental point where we disagree, Madison. I do not (can not) know what it feels like to be "trapped in a man's body", to “have no choice”. If I showed up to a FIRST event in a dress, to me, I would feel like nothing more than a man wearing a dress. I would still have a man's body, underneath the dress. To me, I would still be a man. Until I made the choice to undergo a complete physical change to transform my body, I do not think I could feel like a woman, and I would not identify myself as a woman until the transformation was complete. For me to do this would be my choice. Unlike some, I do not know what it feels like to "not have a choice". What I know about how I feel determines my stance on this issue, and the way I see it, it seems to me like a choice. I think that the best way I to determine gender of a person is to use the gender of a person's body. This is just my opinion, and it likely won't change until I see scientific fact that proves otherwise. I hope that my explanation can help everyone else to understand my thought process in reaching my opinion and my point of view on this.

I really don't follow this logic at all. You're essentially saying that because you are cisgender, you can't understand the experiences of transgender people, which in and of itself is fair. But you then conclude that transgender people don't exist and have a choice? Because you're cisgender, and if you "decided" to be trans it would be a choice, it must be a choice for everybody? How can you reach that conclusion, particularly when you know and freely admit that your experiences are different from those of trans people?

It would definitely make me very uncomfortable to be in a situation like that. And yes, I value the well-being of myself and my family above that of others around me, regardless of the gender, race, ethnicity, or sexual orientation of those around me. Don't we all?

Ultimately what I'm trying to get at here is this - why do you feel unsafe around trans people? The implications of posts like yours are that trans people are somehow threatening to the safety and security of cis people. You don't come out and say that directly but you keep bringing up safety and comfort so I have trouble figuring out a different meaning behind your words. Trans people are not more dangerous than cis people; they're not more likely to violate or abuse their peers (much the opposite actually - more likely to be the victims). What is the fear here? What harm do you expect when trans boys room with cis boys, or trans women room with cis women? To be completely honest, I think your worldview is informed by some prejudiced misconceptions of what trans people are actually like.

dubiousSwain

21-04-2016, 14:55

The problem here is that without knowing the reasoning behind such a rule, it's hard to explain why it might be problematic and counter-productive. I mean, maybe it's a perfectly appropriate rule that efficiently achieves its goal and I'm just unclear on the intended goal. Anonymous123 says going outside that rule is a "lawsuit waiting to happen". What would this lawsuit be about? We're all FIRSTers here, gimme a blue box on that "No opposite sexes rooming together" rule.

I agree. Why should we separate students based on gender? Is it for the comfort of the students? If so, I would point the the many anecdotes from this thread and from my own experience that high school students can be mature and handle rooming with members of the opposite sex. Is it for the mentors' piece of mind? If so, why do we see so many cases of gay cis women rooming with other women? Why do we see cases of straight trans men and women being forced to room with the opposite gender? Is it for the school? If so, where is the rule that says that kids must room with the same sex? I know I've personally read my school's handbook back to front and never seen a rule like that. Is it for FIRST? If so, show me a page in the admin manual.

I understand in some cases, there are rules in place about this kind of thing. I am inviting you to challenge your beliefs. FIRST is about learning and growing. One of the ways we do that is to challenge ourselves and what we know to be "true" or "real". Please, have the courage to open your mind and consider another reality.

Alan Anderson

21-04-2016, 16:11

Why should we separate students based on gender?

The prevailing rules regarding teenagers are based on the rulemakers' memories of being teenagers, and on the societal norm of what is considered "inappropriate" contact between minors.

I think that's a reasonable summary of why we do. To address why we should requires evaluating and perhaps reconsidering a couple of assumptions. One big assumption is that "gay" is not a thing. I think the implications of not making that assumption need to be looked at and separated from assumptions about gender identity before a transgender policies discussion can get very far.

Shrub

21-04-2016, 19:46

I would still have a man's body, underneath the dress. To me, I would still be a man. Until I made the choice to undergo a complete physical change to transform my body, I do not think I could feel like a woman, and I would not identify myself as a woman until the transformation was complete.

"Sex-confirmation surgery" is unnecessary. It's an expense many, many trans people cannot afford. This is a really, really skewed perception of what it means to be transgender, and I hope you allow yourself to read more personal trans experiences to learn what it's really like.

Kevin Sevcik

21-04-2016, 22:48

Note: This rambles entirely away from my original point, but feels like a good post instead of whatever I was deleting earlier today, so I'm posting anyways.
I think that the best way I to determine gender of a person is to use the gender of a person's body. This is just my opinion, and it likely won't change until I see scientific fact that proves otherwise.I feel I should point out that you've already, scientifically, lost on this point. There's SO much complication, subtlety, and gray area just in how gender genotype translates into realized phenotype:
XX males (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome)
XY females (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome)
Genetic Chimeras (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)#Humans)
Various other Intersex Humans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex)

Welcome to biology, where all your engineering notions of sharp lines and strict categories are about as useful as a calculus book in a jungle. "Gender of a person's body" is a scientifically vague concept. And if your answer is "I knows it when I sees it"... well that doesn't seem like a useful way of organizing a society.

Which is really what it comes down to. The whole notion of gender as a binary and gender roles as immutably tied to someone's assigned-at-birth gender is a social construct. It's like how paper money is valuable only because society as a whole has "decided" it's useful to think a piece of paper with a dead person's portrait is a fair trade for a ham sandwich. Traditional gender identity and gender roles were presumably useful to society at some point. We're just pointing out they have little connection to fundamental reality, are actively harmful in many ways, and are thus becoming less useful every year. They're purely a social construct, and it's time to re-think them and update them to work better for everyone.

Since there isn't some board of Managers of Society to petition about this, the next best (only) option is to talk about LBGT+ issues openly and explain to anyone who wants to listen how those traditional* ideas are harmful and less than useful.

*Shouldn't forget that the traditions we hold so dear are pretty US/Christian/Euro Centric and will vary in other places and cultures. Which, again, social constructs.

Carolyn_Grace

22-04-2016, 09:14

As adult mentors, liable for the well-being and safety of the students that we chaperon, it just doesn't seem like a good position put ourselves, or the students we look out for, in.

Others have addressed the scientific aspect that you brought up, so I won't bother with :deadhorse:

I want to look at the liable aspect though:
I don't believe anyone in this thread has recommended breaking the law. In fact, it's been said a few times that it's important to be educated about what the law is in your state (or country) and your individual school district. I don't think any student would want their mentors and team to be put into a situation where the team is at risk due to breaking the law.

But, we can follow the law (even if our opinion is that it's archaic), and we can treat our students with respect and love by listening to them and respecting them.

There simply is no safety or liability issue here. Unlike when we're talking about paper airplanes; now THERE'S a lawsuit waiting to happen, when someone gets hit in the eye with one of those things...

mrnoble

22-04-2016, 09:45

In response to the request for advice from a mentor who has travelled with trans students, here is my experience.

Last year, we had one trans student and a number of out gay or lesbian students travel to Utah. Initially, we arranged for our trans student to stay in his own room, but after talking with him, his family, and the family of one of the lesbian students, the two of them decided they wanted to room together. Everyone agreed, and it worked out fine, no issues.

If we hadn't had the open communication with parents (and I understand that is often the case), we would have had him room on his own, much as we've had students take a single room who have any other reasonable motive. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen, and we plan these rooms into our budget. I agree that the old gender binary norms don't give much guidance on these things, and that school rules are often less than helpful. It's frustrating to me that folks talk about this as though it were a safety issue.

Mr_Moko

22-04-2016, 13:11

I'm glad that people seem to have settled that discussion civilly. It's a topic that, while not every team has to deal with it, happens enough to waren debate and rethinking of how thins generally work.

-----
Blog news time!!
Last I counted we had 27 applications, most of them from the US, one from Australia!!
If I counted right we're now at 31 and excited about that. We're currently looking at staff applications, so if anyone wants to apply before we finish going over them you should do it now!!

Herbblood

22-04-2016, 13:13

I'd totally help out but i graduated last year.

Madison

24-04-2016, 14:04

I thought the questions were below were valuable and did a bit of digging this weekend to better understand the policies adopted by Seattle Public Schools.

I have a few questions:

Any mentors have advice on best practices to develop environment conducive towards inclusion of minorities (and specifically LGBT+ students)?

While perhaps not the same, I can speak a bit about what seems to work on my team to make ethnic minorities and women seek us out. I think all of it falls under the umbrella of 'visibility.'

Our team has been headed by a Chinese woman, Donna, and her family for most of its history. She understands the challenges faced by many students in our schools more than, say, someone like me ever could. Consequently, the students and -- most importantly -- their families trust her. In the past, she's had to visit several students' homes to get their families to allow them to be part of the team, but she's never failed to get it to happen. If someone wants to be on the team, she'll find a way to make it happen.

The team is also led by women. Donna handles all of the team's administrative needs. I lead the engineering team and have been the drive coach since I joined the team in 2005.

The team is very present in its community. We focus our outreach heavily on recruitment. I've lost track of the number of students that have joined our team instead of others that are based in the school they attend or nearer to their homes because they interacted with us at an event and felt more comfortable with us.

Any mentors familiar with common public school policies surrounding these topics?

Our team operates its field trips using rules set by Seattle Public Schools. We haven't had to deal with an openly LGBTQ student in about ten years, however.

Non-Discrimination and Affirmative Action: Transgender and Gender Non-Conforming Students (http://www.seattleschools.org/UserFiles/Servers/Server_543/File/Migration/Families&Communities/3210SP.C.pdf)

Names/Pronouns: Students shall have the right to be addressed by a name and pronoun corresponding to their gender identity consistently asserted at school.
...
Restroom Accessibility: A student should be provided access to a restroom facility that corresponds to the gender identity the students consistently asserts at school.
...
Dress Codes: Students shall have the right to dress in accordance with the gender identity they consistently assert at school, within the constraints of the dress codes adopted at their school site.
...
Gender Segregation in Other Areas: As a general rule, in any other circumstances where students are separated by gender in school activities, students shall be permitted to participate in accordance with the gender identity they consistently assert at school.

If hotel assignments are a "red herring" in these conversations, are there other "real" challenges towards inclusiveness/equity that mentors face when serving LGBT+ students?

I'm as guilty as anyone of treating these subjects like it's debate club, but I wanted to include another link here -- http://www.thetrevorproject.org/pages/facts-about-suicide -- to remind folks that mentoring kids can be a lot more than just showing them how to design robots. This is the stuff that matters more than anything else.

Moving on...

And that is the fundamental point where we disagree, Madison. I do not (can not) know what it feels like to be "trapped in a man's body", to “have no choice”.

I won't say much to address this or the rest of the paragraph that followed since my thoughts echo those of others who've already responded.

I am afraid of dogs. I feel nothing but terror when I'm around a dog. My good friends are absolutely in love with their dog and, though I can't imagine how that's possible, I don't disbelieve that it's true. I respect them enough to take what they say as truth and realize that my discomfort is less important than their happiness. Maybe there are parallels to be drawn here; maybe not.

How do you feel about sharing a public restroom with everyone, not just women?

Couldn't care less.

Kartoffee

24-04-2016, 14:31

The thing that I believe that everyone is currently overlooking right now is how this topic irrelevant to the nature of FIRST. I am strongly against the ideas and beliefs of the LGBT+ society, but I do not think it is right to force my own opinions down someone else's throat. I do not see why it matters if a gay man writes an interesting blog post versus a straight one. It is not think that interacting with robots is a blatantly straight activity. I believe this post is just to present an uproar in the FIRST community to unite over some pointless propaganda for a new blog.

First off, you say that we are overlooking how this is relevant to FIRST. This is FIRST, not college football. It is about making your impact on society and culture, hence the term "more than robots" and the significance of the Chairman's award. Also, even if you are against LGBT, it is probably because you have an image in your head of a bunch of men with weird voices marching down the street with pride flags. I have to say, the public image of the LGBT community is very poorly depicted. For all you know, your best friend could be bisexual and wouldn't ever tell you because you are against the LGBT community. It truly is oppression when people are afraid to speak out about who they are because it's seen as "weird" or "freakish". The blog is necessary for students and mentors, and it isn't just about the LGBT perspective versus heterosexual perspective. The blog is about acceptance of LGBT people into a community that has overlooked then for so long. The blog doesn't plan to " force ideals onto "normal" people" or anything along those lines. It is simply there for the few people who are too afraid to try their best. It's to prove that gender and sexuality is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. You aren't required to visit this blog, so don't even try to complain.

Kartoffee

24-04-2016, 14:39

But how is this any different than Women in STEM/FIRST campaigns?

Forget women in STEM, how about any gender, any race, any sexuality, any age, any wealthiness, any anyone? While many teams, including my own, promote women in STEM, I believe that it shouldn't be limited to gender. It's the whole idea of "fight fire with fire" that I don't like. An all inclusive world would be easier for everyone, but we get in our own way sometimes.

piclefefe

24-04-2016, 18:26

Why is this thread relevant shouldn't everyone just talk about robotics the same???

nerdrock101

24-04-2016, 18:42

Why is this thread relevant shouldn't everyone just talk about robotics the same???

Everyone in this world is different and can experience the same thing in a different way. If you and I were both watching the same TV show, maybe I relate to a character more than you because of my background and vice versa. Maybe I find a scene funny but you find it mean, even though we're watching the same scene.

This is a group of people wanting to talk about how they experience FIRST in a different way than non gender and sexual minorities do. What a boring world it would be if we all talked about things the same way. :)

Monochron

24-04-2016, 19:39

Why is this thread relevant shouldn't everyone just talk about robotics the same???

No, we shouldn't. If teams only talked about robotics (and worse, talked about it in the same way) FIRST wouldn't be nearly as impactful of an organization, and boy would our robots be dull.

piclefefe

24-04-2016, 19:58

Tom Line

24-04-2016, 20:10

But is it not possible to talk about robots from different aspects without having to drag sexuality into the mix. I understand that people can talk about robots differently but I do not understand how sexuality affects it.

Robotics do not involve sexuality, and shouldn't. Nor should they involve religion or politics. But there are instances where all 3 intrude upon our sport. When someone is treated unfairly because of their religion, or sexual orientation in robotics then it should be discussed. When we need to enter into politics to obtain grants and funding, that should be discussed.

In this case, much like political grants and funding, we have a website devoted to creating a more positive environment for students so it's definitely worth discussing.

FrankJ

25-04-2016, 15:12

So looking at the Championship conference schedule (http://www.firstchampionship.org/sites/default/files/2016-cmp-conference-schedule.pdf) for the First time. I see there is one (actually a couple. more than that if you include the ones specifically on women in stem) on diversity & inclusion. I know nothing about it other than seeing it on the schedule.

Monochron

25-04-2016, 15:33

But is it not possible to talk about robots from different aspects without having to drag sexuality into the mix. I understand that people can talk about robots differently but I do not understand how sexuality affects it.

Well, you addressed part of what I said. I'm not really interested in doing something one way just because it is possible.
And the idea that robotics students should "just" talk about robots would be quite a few steps in the wrong direction from where teams are now. As they often say, FIRST is about more than the robots.

FrankJ

25-04-2016, 16:23

What is appropriate to talk about in a peer to peer relationship and what is a appropriate in a mentor to student relationship is often different. Especially is your team is school affiliated.

Mr_Moko

25-04-2016, 19:07

Hey everyone, Josh here!
I just wanted to say that I love that we're bringing this to the community and all the discussion that has taken place on this thread over that last few weeks.

Today is the big day though!
If you applied to be a staff member then you should check your email.

To those who were accepted into the the staff I would like to congratulate you!

To those who have not been accepted I would like to say that you can still contribute to the blog! We'll have Submissions and Asks open to anyone who would like to help out or ask questions! Same goes to those who have not applies, Submissions and Asks will be open to everyone.

One thing that is also being worked on is a Discord server. The server is currently reserved for the staff members, but once we get everyone situated and the logistics of how we'll run the Discord server then it will be open for everyone who would like to talk to one another!
We'll have everything from a General Chat to a place to dump your FIRST memes to AMAs and game talk!

Good luck to any and all that are attending Worlds!

anonymous123

27-04-2016, 18:12

Note: This rambles entirely away from my original point, but feels like a good post instead of whatever I was deleting earlier today, so I'm posting anyways.
I feel I should point out that you've already, scientifically, lost on this point. There's SO much complication, subtlety, and gray area just in how gender genotype translates into realized phenotype:
XX males (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome)
XY females (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome)
Genetic Chimeras (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)#Humans)
Various other Intersex Humans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex)

Welcome to biology, where all your engineering notions of sharp lines and strict categories are about as useful as a calculus book in a jungle. "Gender of a person's body" is a scientifically vague concept. And if your answer is "I knows it when I sees it"... well that doesn't seem like a useful way of organizing a society.
...

So you're saying that those who are LGBT+ have a medical condition that makes them that way?

indieFan

27-04-2016, 18:50

So you're saying that those who are LGBT+ have a medical condition that makes them that way?

I know I said I would bow out, but I do need to respond to this.

What he is saying is that it is based on genetics, the same way eye or hair color is. Eye and hair color are not a medical condition, whereas something like Down's Syndrome is. Being LGBT+ is genetic, but not a medical condition.

I hope that makes sense,
indieFan

Basel A

27-04-2016, 19:00

So you're saying that those who are LGBT+ have a medical condition that makes them that way?

Can't tell if you're just trying to agitate, but I'd recommend doing some reading. Here's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria) a place to start.

techninja025

30-04-2016, 23:46

techninja025

01-05-2016, 00:14

Why is this thread relevant shouldn't everyone just talk about robotics the same???
If you don't like the thread you don't have to view it if you don't want. We are not forcing this thread on you. And if you wan't your Chief Delphi experience to be only about robots then go ahead. But remember the first is about "more than robots".

techninja025

01-05-2016, 00:53

The thing that I believe that everyone is currently overlooking right now is how this topic irrelevant to the nature of FIRST. I am strongly against the ideas and beliefs of the LGBT+ society, but I do not think it is right to force my own opinions down someone else's throat. I do not see why it matters if a gay man writes an interesting blog post versus a straight one. It is not think that interacting with robots is a blatantly straight activity. I believe this post is just to present an uproar in the FIRST community to unite over some pointless propaganda for a new blog.
My question is if you are homophobic and "strongly against the ideas and beliefs of the LGBT+ society" why are you on a thread like this. My philosophy is live your own life and let others live theirs. You make the point "but I do not think it is right to force my own opinions down someone else's throat". This thread is here not to force anything on anyone. "I believe this post is just to present an uproar in the FIRST community to unite over some pointless propaganda for a new blog" I disagree 100%. This tread is not to create an uproar. You have that completely wrong. Try and put yourself in an LGBT Firsters shoe's. Or even better imagine a world were being LGBT is the norm and being straight is the minority. Imagine having to be closeted to everyone and pretending to be someone you are not. Imagine having to come out to your family. Im sorry I must sound really rude but when you are on an LGBT blog and you say stuff like that you are gonna get some crap

techninja025

01-05-2016, 01:03

I read it thoroughly the first time and believe this is a waste of a thread on chief delphi.
Then don't read it.

Mr_Moko

01-05-2016, 10:00

It's is great there is finally a blog for LGBT Firsters. I think it will be a great resource for other LGBT people like myself. I can't wait to see this blog grow. I hope I can contribute to the discussion:D

Thanks for liking the idea! And feel free to submit things if you would want to contribute!
Also, I see that you were replying to those who disagree, while that is nice to defend the blog, there is no need to further any confrontation.

techninja025

01-05-2016, 11:14

Thanks for liking the idea! And feel free to submit things if you would want to contribute!
Also, I see that you were replying to those who disagree, while that is nice to defend the blog, there is no need to further any confrontation.
Ok. I was reading through the thread late last night and I kinda got overly defensive. I can't wait to to contribute to the discussion in a less defensive way.

Madison

03-05-2016, 12:18

I have an old person question.

Is there some easy way I can find out if the blog has been updated without randomly visiting it? I am an old and don't speak tumblr.

planetbrilliant

03-05-2016, 12:42

Is there some easy way I can find out if the blog has been updated without randomly visiting it? I am an old and don't speak tumblr.

If you're willing to use an RSS reader, I think tumblr blogs are automatically hooked up with an RSS Feed.
And, if you have the Tumblr app (which I'm assuming you don't, but just to cover all the bases), you can turn on notifications for specific blogs by going to their page in the app and clicking one of the buttons at the top.

Mr_Moko

03-05-2016, 16:46

I have an old person question.

Is there some easy way I can find out if the blog has been updated without randomly visiting it? I am an old and don't speak tumblr.

Planetbrilliant probably has the best answer to that. If you don't have Tumblr nor want to get it that's okay though. We should look into seeing if we can get an RSS feed going if Tumblr doesn't have one built in.

piclefefe

03-05-2016, 20:40

If you don't like the thread you don't have to view it if you don't want. We are not forcing this thread on you. And if you wan't your Chief Delphi experience to be only about robots then go ahead. But remember the first is about "more than robots".

I do not want his new concept of lgbtq to poisin the good society the FIRST has constructed.

Shrub

03-05-2016, 22:16

I do not want his new concept of lgbtq to poisin the good society the FIRST has constructed.

I'm sorry LGBT+ people have been around forever. :(

Anywho, a note about getting notifications through Tumblr is you have to keep the app running.

(This is directed at the mods) Another thing for post notifications is enabling your Twitter to post every time something goes on the blog - that way your Twitter followers who may not use Tumblr are updated on new posts. It's in the blog settings.

techninja025

04-05-2016, 09:13

Hey guys I know it's over and done but I want to apologize for my replies so far in this thread. I realized I was being part of the problem. I am also sorry to the people I replied to rudely to. Just because I don't agree with your views doesn't mean I should be rude about it. I hope to be more helpful and less of a hindrance to this thread.

planetbrilliant

04-05-2016, 09:41

(This is directed at the mods) Another thing for post notifications is enabling your Twitter to post every time something goes on the blog - that way your Twitter followers who may not use Tumblr are updated on new posts. It's in the blog settings.

That sounds like a plan! We'll try to get that, or something similar, running.

I do not want his new concept of lgbtq to poisin the good society the FIRST has constructed.

Shrub is correct, LGBT+ people have been around forever. There are hieroglyphics depicting pharaohs in gay relationships from 2400 BC and many other records of LGBT+ people existing basically as long as humans have been a thing.
Regardless, I don't see how accepting and acknowledging LGBT+ people would "poison the good society FIRST has constructed".

Madison

05-05-2016, 23:54

That sounds like a plan! We'll try to get that, or something similar, running.

That would be awesome. I'm not -so- old that I don't know how to use Twitter. :)

Carolyn_Grace

06-05-2016, 07:32

Is it possible to update the Twitter account with links to the most recent posts? I follow most of my blogs that way.

Mr_Moko

07-05-2016, 17:30

Is it possible to update the Twitter account with links to the most recent posts? I follow most of my blogs that way.

It should be from what I've hear. We'll look into it!

---Edit---

Looked into it and now our twitter will update when we make a post on Tumblr for all of those who would rather not make a Tumblr or are not sure how to use it!

Why_A_Username?

11-05-2016, 12:10

So admittedly I have not read the entirety of this very long thread, so someone may have already shared a similar story, and if that's the case then I apologize for repeating.

From my own personal experiance, FIRST has been an increadibly welcoming community. I am openly Bi-sexual, and anyone on my team who has ever gotten to know me knows this. I have had absolutely no issues and I have never once felt discriminated against for any reason, let alone my sexuality. It seems so me that the people in FIRST are above such ignorance. In fact FIRST was a large part in my coming out, as my team provided me with an enviroment in which I felt supported and safe, no matter who I was.

I think it's important that we keep allowing the LGBT community the same support that I feel throughout FIRST. This organization has not only taught me about engineering, leadership, teamwork and business, but also has helped me find myself as a person. Personally I would like to thank this community for being so accepting and caring, and for giving me the strength to live as myself. As stated at the beginning of this thread, today's teams are tomorrow's leaders, and that gives me hope for a future with acceptance world-round.