View Full Version : Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
It's one of everyone's favorite reoccurring topics: complaining about people throwing paper airplanes from the stands while waiting for the Einstein matches to start. A quick search shows at least three such threads from last year alone.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136877&highlight=paper+airplane
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136936&highlight=paper+airplane
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136918&highlight=paper+airplane
I also found a thread discussing a blog post following the 2014 Championship where Frank asks everyone to consider the impression we leave as a community by littering the dome with thousands of sheets of paper that someone has to clean up.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129277&highlight=paper+airplane
The regularity of these threads indicates that people voicing their concerns after the fact, then waiting a year and hoping things will change is not working. I'm hoping that by having this discussion before Championship the community can do something to address these concerns, rather than just continuing to beat a dead horse.
My personal take:
I recognize that throwing paper airplanes can be an enjoyable way to pass the time between when you have to claim a seat around the Einstein fields and when the matches actually start. I recognize that some people consider this a tradition that is part of the Championship experience. (I can remember sitting in the stands in 2003 and watching a few stray paper airplanes make their way down from the upper levels, so it has been done to some extent for as long as Championship has been in a dome.)
I did not attend Championship last year, but based on my experience in 2014 I think that it has gotten out of hand. At the very least, I think that people who feel compelled to throw paper airplanes should take some responsibility for cleaning them up. Ultimately, I would not miss this practice if it went away entirely.
Littlepchan
19-04-2016, 11:59
If my team will let me stay behind I don't mind helping. If i'm going to throw paper airplanes might as well help pick them up.
I know it is an opposing viewpoint, but I like the challenge of getting the airplane to the curtain. In fact my plan was to buy a small buzzer motor that goes in a phone, 3d print a small propeller, attach a small dime battery, throw it, and be done. I agree that it is a problem when people are throwing during Einstien Prep and matches, in fact I was appalled that they threw their planes during that time. Trash at an event like this will happen no matter what anyone does and the staff are prepared for it.
At this point I'm going to be quiet, because the more I try to add the worst it will get. If you want to say your team to not throwing paper airplanes fine, in fact we may do that in the end. I just wanted to say that I liked the challenge of trying to hit the curtain, and that I wouldn't mind helping to insure that others have the same fun when the teams are board sitting in the stands.
Carolyn_Grace
19-04-2016, 12:02
If my team will let me stay behind I don't mind helping. If i'm going to throw paper airplanes might as well help pick them up.:)
One of the issues is that the majority of the airplanes end of littering the dome floor, which is at the end of the competition rightfully reserved for celebration of the winning team.
There just isn't the option of allowing other people down on the dome to help clean up.
Respectfully, your sentiment of "If I'm going to throw paper airplanes, I might as well help pick them up." just isn't an option. If you truly believe you should help clean up your own messes, then don't make the mess in the first place.
GreyingJay
19-04-2016, 12:09
Like anything else, it's a fun activity that is spoiled by people who clearly don't think before doing. 90% of the people play by the rules and it's fine, the other 10% spoil it for everyone.
Ostensibly the challenge is to create a plane or two or five, and fly it to see how far you can make it go. It's like a little engineering challenge.
The people who spoil the fun for everyone:
People who toss airplanes at the wrong time, such as during matches.
People who toss non-airplanes just for the sake of tossing them, such as crumped balls of paper or other litter. (Why?)
People who go overboard, tossing buckets of scrap paper down without even bothering to make a plane.
I do agree that if you make 'em, you should participate in cleaning up afterward.
pntbll1313
19-04-2016, 12:13
Our team views it as extremely disrespectful. If people were throwing garbage onto the field of any sporting event they would be escorted out. I've witnessed countless eyes wander from very impactful guest speakers just to watch a paper airplane that nearly lands on the field. How any team can justify that this is professional behavior is beyond me. If teams truly view it as an engineering challenge, set up an area in a hallway and supply a bunch of paper. Create a competition out of it and spread the word. Once you build your plane and fly it down the hallway record your distance, and then recycle it. (I doubt all the paper on the field mixed with trash is recycled).
You will not see anyone on 2052 throwing airplanes.
Michael Corsetto
19-04-2016, 12:23
Thanks for bringing this up.
I'll be sure to add this topic to our team itinerary.
Namely, "Littering via throwing paper airplanes in the Dome does not align with Team 1678's public image. Please focus your energy and enthusiasm towards the competition and your roles on the the travel team."
Also, the paper airplanes can be disruptive to matches. A ref needed to remove this airplane from the field before Einstein Finals Match 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwuYfa8TS60).
Although not every team will, I'm sure many teams could be proactive in addressing this behavior.
Now, it doesn't help when a CMP speaker tells your kids to throw them :(
-Mike
Chris_Ely
19-04-2016, 12:30
The only way the plane/trash throwing is going to stop is if FIRST does something about it. Just asking people to stop is not working. Add a rule in the Admin manual with a Team Update, send an email to mentors, and instruct volunteers/security to enforce the rule. Teams throwing trash (paper planes included) onto the unsuspecting people below should be removed from the dome. This is not just a GP issue, it is a safety issue.
Chief Hedgehog
19-04-2016, 12:35
Our team views it as extremely disrespectful. If people were throwing garbage onto the field of any sporting event they would be escorted out. I've witnessed countless eyes wander from very impactful guest speakers just to watch a paper airplane that nearly lands on the field. How any team can justify that this is professional behavior is beyond me. If teams truly view it as an engineering challenge, set up an area in a hallway and supply a bunch of paper. Create a competition out of it and spread the word. Once you build your plane and fly it down the hallway record your distance, and then recycle it. (I doubt all the paper on the field mixed with trash is recycled).
You will not see anyone on 2052 throwing airplanes.
This. 4607 will be following 2052's lead on this.
Caleb Sykes
19-04-2016, 12:56
Now, it doesn't help when a CMP speaker tells your kids to throw them :(
No one on our team threw any airplanes last year until this happened. After that, well, I lost my motivation to explain to students why I thought throwing airplanes was poor behavior.
We did pick up airplanes on our way out to throw them away, but the garbages were already overflowing, so all we really accomplished was a spreading of this silly mess from the stands into the hallway.
It was difficult to tell our 6 year old son he wasn't allowed to throw airplanes when he was surrounded by high school students and adults doing the same.
FIRST Championships: Setting Back Good Parenting Since 2003
Rangel(kf7fdb)
19-04-2016, 13:45
I may have not been paying attention but has FIRST ever even asked the crowd to not throw paper airplanes. It seems by just making it clear at the start of opening ceremonies would decrease airplane throws dramatically. Instead all I've hear is occasional encouragement to throw the airplanes.
...
You said it best last year...
When Karthik Kanagasabapathy has to pick them up, you know there's a problem.
Stop throwing paper airplanes people
http://i.imgur.com/IKLUb8M.jpg
Lil' Lavery
19-04-2016, 13:55
Do it all at once, as an organized event. When the speaker asks, do it then, and not again. Have fun with it during that set downtime, and get it out of the system.
nerdrock101
19-04-2016, 13:55
I don't think you'll find many mentors who want to see this continue. It's students that are causing this and it's troubling that their mentors are absent/don't care/aren't respected enough to be listened to. At this point, it may take a official FIRST message to make them stop.
Matt_Boehm_329
19-04-2016, 14:02
Do it all at once, as an organized event. When the speaker asks, do it then, and not again. Have fun with it during that set downtime, and get it out of the system.
This is an idea I like.
I'm not sure I've seen this mentioned but as someone who has been hit in the head repeatably by paper airplanes that were inexpertly made and thrown, I'm not a big fan. :(
PayneTrain
19-04-2016, 14:33
We're only flying paper airplanes because Libby likes them so much.
It bears looking for the root cause here; people are bored, paper airplanes are fun and the dome offers a pretty awesome place to fly them.
I'd propose a formal (either FIRST or team organized) paper airplane contest. Each team gets the same paper/whatever, launches from the same place and graded on whatever criteria seems appropriate. Let people get it out of their system in a positive and easier to control manner.
How about create a schedule that doesn't have 30 minutes between matches?
MechEng83
19-04-2016, 14:55
How about create a schedule that doesn't have 30 minutes between matches?
This. So much.
Michael Corsetto
19-04-2016, 14:56
How about create a schedule that doesn't have 30 minutes between matches?
Please! Yes.
Jardanium
19-04-2016, 15:01
I was never too big of a fan of the paper airplane tradition, as it created a gigantic mess, was quite annoying and even painful at times; I remember being hit in the head forcefully by several as we sat down on the lower level in 2014. I personally always felt bad when speakers telling their inspiring and emotional stories were interrupted by the cheers of the crowd as an airplane made it to the stage.
Last year in particular however, I felt the tradition got way too out of hand, as groups were dumping reams of paper off the upper level, throwing crumpled and ripped up programs from outside and at some points toilet paper from the bathrooms ended up being run down to the lower level from up there as well.
It felt more like a rave than a robotics competition, and just seemed very out of place and inappropriate on such an international stage of competition.
tl;dr: No more paper airplanes, they cause a big mess, distract from the show, and don't look professional.
We're only flying paper airplanes because Libby likes them so much.
Dangit, Wil, I'd been avoiding this thread. :P
I'm honestly tired of being the broken record on this one.
It's disrespectful. Just don't do it.
Why this isn't common sense is absolutely mind-boggling to me.
Who cares what a random speaker says, Good Guy Frank himself has said in a blog to stop throwing paper airplanes. FIRST should absolutely put out wording (team update, maybe?) that states clearly states a position against it, and continue to make announcements throughout the event.
If the only possible way the kids on your team can have fun at World Championships is by throwing airplanes, you might want to reconsider bringing those students on the trip at all. It's similar to the idea of students who paid all the money for a trip, just to play games on their phones in the stands ... what's your end goal here? On 1923 we ban a lot of things that are disrespectful to the event on our team, with wording similar to Mike Corsetto's above. Paper airplanes are one of them, along with things like headphone use & gaming in the stands.
Yes, there are WAY-too-long breaks between matches. FIRST should work on their end to make them smaller, and fill those breaks with valuable content (team history & match review by knowledgeable commentators, maybe? I know I'm shooting for the stars here...) - but just because FIRST ends up creating a break doesn't mean we get to fill it with awful behavior.
What other ways can we, as a community, think of that a team in the stands could do on their own to fill the time between Einstein matches?
I'll start: Our team, when we're watching elims matches with long breaks, tends to 'bet on' & discuss the upcoming match. Oh yeah, I'll bet it's Red, did you see Team XYZ's high shot now? Or what about something like an "Einstein Bingo" card that your team can play against each other in the stands? A trivia game about your team? I Spy: FIRST event edition?
Doesn't have to be something huge or intense. Just anything that's not littering...
BrendanB
19-04-2016, 16:19
Do it all at once, as an organized event. When the speaker asks, do it then, and not again. Have fun with it during that set downtime, and get it out of the system.
Or we could just not do it at all and act like adults without throwing paper around.
Just my take.
BenHildy
19-04-2016, 16:47
While I will admit that I participated in the throwing of paper airplanes last year at world's, I frankly was an overexcited freshman who was eager to be a part of something big. Little did I know that my actions cause problems in the grand scheme of things. While I do agree that it has its fun, we should certainly refrain from the whole throwing of planes, at least during guest speakers, matches, etc because it is extremely and utterly disrespectful. I'm not going to wail on those who do this responsibly, but honestly we as a generation of intellectuals all congregated in one place could easily think of a less disruptive time-waster. Overall, I can understand how this "tradition" developed, but it certainly takes away from the mature and sophisticated image that FRC strives to build for us.
tl;dr: Throwing paper planes, while fun, has grown a bit out of control and should be either done responsibly or not at all.
What other ways can we, as a community, think of that a team in the stands could do on their own to fill the time between Einstein matches?
Doesn't have to be something huge or intense. Just anything that's not littering...
Well, let's preface this by kinda throwing the "Doesn't have to be something huge or intense" part out the window - what about expanding on the FIRST Einstein show that was put on last year into a Preview/Season Recap show?
One of my favorite parts of the season is listening to team history recaps during Finals from MCs like Karthik (His recap during GTRE 2012 was phenominal) and Dave Verbrugge (The one that comes to mind was his recap during 2010 Einstein).
So, expanding on this, once the first or second division gets out of division eliminations, over on the official Einstein screen FIRST could start a preshow in somewhat of the same vein as your conventional sports preshow. It could cover everything from the history of the Einstein teams at Champs to significant moments during the season (First capture, first hang, first double hang, first Triple hang, etc.) and cover things like event with best breaching percentage, highest capture rate, etc. [1] to a panel of "experts" predicting general strategies that are expected to be seen on Einstein - things like expected offense/defense ratio, types of defense, over/unders on scores from different points in the match, etc.
It's information that I, and at least a decent amount of people on Chief, seem to love to hear about. It'd be something that would be mildly interesting, but not something that would be unfortunate to miss since your division is still playing. There's plenty of people with much better qualifications to host this show (FUN, RoboZone, GameSense, etc.) but would be a position I'd love to volunteer for / shoot for in the future.
[1] - May require some research on the fly. I suppose access to TBA would be helpful.
Joe Johnson
19-04-2016, 17:01
<SNIP>
Who cares what a random speaker says, Good Guy Frank himself has said in a blog to stop throwing paper airplanes. FIRST should absolutely put out wording (team update, maybe?) that states clearly states a position against it, and continue to make announcements throughout the event.
<SNIP>
I think, yes, put out an update but if FIRST really want to kill this, I think they need to bring out the big guns.
Have Dean and/or Woodie come out and say something like, "Listen. We are serious. We've put this in the Manual (via an update but still it's in the rules). We want this to stop. If you won't do this out of respect for the rules, then I am asking you to do it out of respect for me. Please. Don't do this. If you see others doing it, remind them of the norms of this community. Thanks."
I think the FIRST community will surprise you with how fast we'd get this under control, but it will take more than a blog post I think.
Dr. Joe J.
I think, yes, put out an update but if FIRST really want to kill this, I think they need to bring out the big guns.
Have Dean and/or Woodie come out and say something like, "Listen. We are serious. We've put this in the Manual (via an update but still it's in the rules). We want this to stop. If you won't do this out of respect for the rules, then I am asking you to do it out of respect for me. Please. Don't do this. If you see others doing it, remind them of the norms of this community. Thanks."
I think the FIRST community will surprise you with how fast we'd get this under control, but it will take more than a blog post I think.
Dr. Joe J.
Absolutely agree! I think the confusion source is that there's mixed messages coming from above, so some folks think it's OK.
I know it is an opposing viewpoint, but I like the challenge of getting the airplane to the curtain. In fact my plan was to buy a small buzzer motor that goes in a phone, 3d print a small propeller, attach a small dime battery, throw it, and be done.
Please do not add anything non-paper to a paper aeroplane. No matter what you say, there is a significant risk of the paper planes hitting someone, I'd rather not be hit by a plane at all and definitely one with the added weight of a prop, motor and battery. Our team was almost constantly hit with planes coming from near the top of the stands last year.
Just think of it this way, if there are 600 teams at Champs and each team has 20 students at the event, if each student throws a single plane that is 12000 paper planes. It is a huge waste, and massive inconvenience to the event staff and to members of the FIRST community down on the arena floor.
I can't understand why there isn't some sort of declaration to not throw paper airplanes during a match/while someone is speaking (or at all, for that matter).
From what I gather, not many people seem to be fond of the littering tradition, so why isn't there someone in, say, opening ceremonies telling people to stop?
BenHildy
19-04-2016, 20:35
Even after last year, people seem to be in no rush to recycle. I, personally, think we ought to take a strong hold on this issue and assist is stopping the aerial assault. Ultimately, as the paper airplanes ascent into the air, we stay grounded in logic and common sense to stand together, and protest this faulty tradition.
Ok
BrennanB
19-04-2016, 21:04
Throwing stuff on a playing field just yesterday. (http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/sports/Flyers-Bracelets-Capitals-Penalty-Fans-Toss-376181361.html?_osource=SocialFlowFB_PHBrand)
Throwing stuff on a playing field just yesterday. (http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/sports/Flyers-Bracelets-Capitals-Penalty-Fans-Toss-376181361.html?_osource=SocialFlowFB_PHBrand)
You know, I was thinking about that reading this thread...
I suggest a rule that any paper airplane thrown, if the thrower is identified, is a Foul against their team, or if their team is out, their subdivision, in the next match.
Now, it doesn't help when a CMP speaker tells your kids to throw them :(
Absafraggin-lutely. Before heading up to 2015 CMP, we briefed our team that we would not launch paper airplanes, and stuck with it until then. When the announcement came down from a CMP speaker, the rules changed. I confess to re-constructing some championship gliders from my high school memory. Not just once or twice. I estimate that three program books worth of paper airplanes wound up somewhere below us based on my designs and/or construction.
Chris Hibner
19-04-2016, 21:44
What other ways can we, as a community, think of that a team in the stands could do on their own to fill the time between Einstein matches?
This is the part that I don't understand. You mean to tell me that a generation of kids that use their phones to occupy their time to fill every down second (and a lot of seconds that they should definitely not be on their phones) all of the sudden decide that something is more interesting than their phones? Seriously, everyone saying that they need to throw airplanes to keep from being bored, where is that creativity the other 364 days of the year?
In other words, stop throwing airplanes and play on your $%^$ phones - here's the one chance that we would rather you do that.
Ok, I'm done being an old cranky guy.
Joe Johnson
20-04-2016, 07:14
One more point about having Dean and/or Woodie ask the audience to stop, it empowers cranky old folk like myself to tell young whippersnappers to knock it off. If we know we are standing with Dean/Woodie, then we can confidently (and nicely, at least at first) ask people around us we see folding planes to stop.
Dr. Joe J.
marshall
20-04-2016, 07:31
What other ways can we, as a community, think of that a team in the stands could do on their own to fill the time between Einstein matches?
I propose a "Waiting for Einstein" bingo app... though none of the boxes should be "someone throwing a paper airplane". ;)
synth3tk
20-04-2016, 07:47
I propose a "Waiting for Einstein" bingo app... though none of the boxes should be "someone throwing a paper airplane". ;)
Actually, let's take it a step further: A clean version of JackBox (http://jackboxgames.com/) games actually wouldn't be a bad idea at all. If it works as well as I saw it at PAX South, then the whole arena may be suspiciously silent.
marshall
20-04-2016, 07:57
Actually, let's take it a step further: A clean version of JackBox (http://jackboxgames.com/) games actually wouldn't be a bad idea at all. If it works as well as I saw it at PAX South, then the whole arena may be suspiciously silent.
I have no idea what that is but I think we are on to something.
lamiet01
20-04-2016, 08:07
Now, it doesn't help when a CMP speaker tells your kids to throw them :(
-Mike
And, if I remember correctly, one of the speakers that encouraged the throwing was a general in the United States Air Force.
I do not condone the throwing of paper airplanes in the dome, but a little discouragement from the stage would go a long way towards ending this "tradition".
Al Skierkiewicz
20-04-2016, 08:53
OK,
Sorry to weigh in here, but...
I work on Einstein and see this period from a different view than the stands. Last year, is was a rain storm of paper that went on for hours. Some of those planes ended up in the LED video board above the stands. Removing them would be a costly fix for venue staff. But check out the picture below. This is one of at least four piles of similar size that were swept up during the Einstein program. I did not get a picture of the piles after the crowd moved to the finale. Yours may have only been one of these, but they add up.
jvriezen
20-04-2016, 09:38
Clearly the way to deal with this is to print the prohibition against paper airplanes on 8.5"x11" flyers, and place one or more on each seat in the stands. To make it fun, origami techniques could be used to pre-fold the flyers into some shape that relates directly to the topic being covered. Do you think this idea will fly? Anyone willing to get this idea off the ground?
Also, place a few Recycle Rush bins near the back curtain and on the flyers encourage that they be recycled in those containers.
I like to float such ideas like this, but sometimes things just go over the heads of most people.
Francis-134
20-04-2016, 09:49
I think if someone said anything over the PA, or had a screen with something along the lines of "Please refrain from throwing paper airplanes", it would stop almost completely. This practice has been going on for years, and is almost a tradition, whether good or bad.
FIRST kids are, in general, friendly toward authority, or are at the very least, not afraid to tell their peers when something is bad. Literally, any sort of "official" word from the event, while at the event, saying to not throw airplanes is really all we need. Not everyone reads the blog, and even fewer read Chief Delphi.
marshall
20-04-2016, 10:04
I think if someone said anything over the PA, or had a screen with something along the lines of "Please refrain from throwing paper airplanes", it would stop almost completely. This practice has been going on for years, and is almost a tradition, whether good or bad.
FIRST kids are, in general, friendly toward authority, or are at the very least, not afraid to tell their peers when something is bad. Literally, any sort of "official" word from the event, while at the event, saying to not throw airplanes is really all we need. Not everyone reads the blog, and even fewer read Chief Delphi.
I agree. Hopefully Frank is reading this and they give us a sign (a literal one).
This is all well and good for us to say in a thread as people who have habitual champs attendance problems, but we're already ignoring the environment and frame of mind teams will be in on Saturday. In other words, our words will fall on deaf ears without a much larger microphone.
100% of teams will wake up and go into the Dome on Saturday
65% of teams will have nothing to do but pack up their pit on Saturday, which takes about 30 minutes
95% of teams will have nothing to do for up to 8 hours after lunch, including the 65% of teams who have already been sitting/watching for 3 hours.
It will take something official for teams to stop, IMO. I have tried to stop my own team, and yet been overridden by mentors or (worse) parents who simply disagree because they're the ones who have been sitting for what feels like forever. The kids even made paper airplane templates last year, with team branding and social media contacts.
Please, FIRST, speak up about this.
Last seasons Einstein matches seemed especially slow due to the lengthy gaps between matches. When I spoke with my team about this thread I was happy to see that the majority of the team agree they want to not participate. With that backing, the team has pledged to not take part in paper airplane throwing this season.
I really hope that the pacing of the finals matches are better this year. Kids, and us more mature kids, are pretty tired and hungry by the time the finals start. Last year I had to escort a couple of kids out to the concourse because they had reached their limit and needed a break.
synth3tk
20-04-2016, 15:02
I have no idea what that is but I think we are on to something.
So basically, you run the game on a console or PC connected to the internet. You then have a few people (usually 4-8?) connect to a website (jackbox.tv (http://jackbox.tv)) and enter a code. Those people then become "participants". After they've joined, you can have people go to the website on the phone, tablet or laptop and enter a code to join the game as an "audience" member. I think there's a limit, so we'd have to see if we could get a special build for FIRST.
Anyway, it's just a bunch of minigames, most of which are based around words, answering questions, or drawing things. The "audience" then votes/selects their favorite, and points are given out based on how many people chose yours. Most points at the end of all the rounds for that game wins.
You put the game up on the screen and next thing you know, everybody's on a game show. It's really quite fun. People have played it on Twitch, too, but it's not the same as hearing people laugh or groan in person.
I think there's a limit, so we'd have to see if we could get a special build for FIRST.
And here's where random trivia about streamers that I know comes in handy. The game with the largest capacity that Jackbox offers is Lie Swatter, for 1-100 players supposedly, but crashes spectacularly (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RJDCsOshic) when there's more than 400 players. It would be interesting to try to work with Jackbox (or any other mobile gaming company) for a party game that works with literally thousands of players.
I watched a student dump an 18 gallon tote full of scouting papers over the balcony last year. It was literally dumping trash onto people below. I got into it with an adult on the team who watched it happen and could only shrug thier shoulders.
I watched a student dump an 18 gallon tote full of scouting papers over the balcony last year. It was literally dumping trash onto people below. I got into it with an adult on the team who watched it happen and could only shrug thier shoulders.
I'm not sure the student would be walking out of the dome if that happened on our team... :yikes:
I don't think you'll find many mentors who want to see this continue.
Actually, I'm a mentor that doesn't think this is that big of deal.
Yes, airplanes shouldn't be thrown when important things are happening and they shouldn't have anything but paper in them. But certainly they're not more dangerous than great big beach balls that routinely hit people in the head.
Paper airplanes are
1. an engineering competition
2. a social activity
3. a science demonstration.
I could go on. They're fun.
Yes, we could be staring into our cell phones instead. I prefer this.
Also, yes, OK, it's a big mess. Especially if people bring paper just for this, but in my experience it's been mostly paper from scouting reports, safety 'posters' and re-used paper and I'm mostly unfolding someone else's airplanes and making better ones. First isn't noted for being terribly green. And if you're re-folding planes, then you're 'reusing' right? The stadium-world is used to cleaning up huge messes after every event.
I'm not sure about this, but I suspect the people that have to clean these up are employees of the stadium, paid by the hour. They'll have to sweep the floor anyway, so sweeping airplanes isn't that much of a big deal. This actually gives them more work, hence more money. I doubt you'll hear them complaining if this is correct. Better than sweeping up beer bottles after a football game.
When I read the title 'being proactive' I thought this string would be about looking up and practicing actual airplane designs that are good, that win contests. Not just the boring barely-works dart planes most of you are throwing.
Yes, I mentor in paper airplane design too.
And if the people in charge want it to stop, and say so, I'll go along, but that wouldn't be my preference.
...But certainly they're not more dangerous than great big beach balls that routinely hit people in the head.
...
Also, yes, OK, it's a big mess. Especially if people bring paper just for this, but in my experience it's been mostly paper from scouting reports, safety 'posters' and re-used paper and I'm mostly unfolding someone else's airplanes and making better ones. First isn't noted for being terribly green. And if you're re-folding planes, then you're 'reusing' right? The stadium-world is used to cleaning up huge messes after every event.
...
I'm not sure about this, but I suspect the people that have to clean these up are employees of the stadium, paid by the hour. They'll have to sweep the floor anyway, so sweeping airplanes isn't that much of a big deal. This actually gives them more work, hence more money. I doubt you'll hear them complaining if this is correct. Better than sweeping up beer bottles after a football game.
People in the stands generally aren't wearing safety glasses. I've had quite a few come close to nailing me in the eye. You are right that beach balls are generally safe though.
Maybe it's been a while since the last explicit message (Though last years GAME NAME is kinda a big hint), but FIRST is trying to be green. They used to have EWatt Light Saver light bulbs to help the environment.
"I'm giving custodians a job and extra hours to work." has got to be one of the dumbest reasons people keep presenting for keeping this. I'd rather give them an extra light night where all of the students clean up after themselves and don't litter all over the dome floor. Be sure to ask your boss for extra hours on the weekends because it means more money.
I'd rather give them an extra light night where all of the students clean up after themselves and don't litter all over the dome floor.
What about the confetti? should we stop that too? That's actually provided by the organizers.
No, because it's fun too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=340rbguRulo
What about the confetti? should we stop that too? That's actually provided by the organizers.
No, because it's fun too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=340rbguRulo
Celebratory confetti is different. It's something the winning Alliance has earned and I imagine the venue knows about well in advance with all of the setup for the system.
Francis-134
20-04-2016, 18:15
Actually, I'm a mentor that doesn't think this is that big of deal...
I tend to agree that if FIRST thinks it's OK, then it's kinda cool. No lie, I've always wanted to show up with some sort of paper contraption that puts the paper rings to shame.
The issue is that it appears FIRST does not want it, and it's pretty annoying to a lot of people when you get hit with one. We really just need the event to tell people to cut it out if that is what the Championship really wants.
Actually, I'm a mentor that doesn't think this is that big of deal.
Yes, airplanes shouldn't be thrown when important things are happening and they shouldn't have anything but paper in them. But certainly they're not more dangerous than great big beach balls that routinely hit people in the head.
Paper airplanes are
1. an engineering competition
2. a social activity
3. a science demonstration.
I could go on. They're fun.
Yes, we could be staring into our cell phones instead. I prefer this.
Also, yes, OK, it's a big mess. Especially if people bring paper just for this, but in my experience it's been mostly paper from scouting reports, safety 'posters' and re-used paper and I'm mostly unfolding someone else's airplanes and making better ones. First isn't noted for being terribly green. And if you're re-folding planes, then you're 'reusing' right? The stadium-world is used to cleaning up huge messes after every event.
I'm not sure about this, but I suspect the people that have to clean these up are employees of the stadium, paid by the hour. They'll have to sweep the floor anyway, so sweeping airplanes isn't that much of a big deal. This actually gives them more work, hence more money. I doubt you'll hear them complaining if this is correct. Better than sweeping up beer bottles after a football game.
When I read the title 'being proactive' I thought this string would be about looking up and practicing actual airplane designs that are good, that win contests. Not just the boring barely-works dart planes most of you are throwing.
Yes, I mentor in paper airplane design too.
And if the people in charge want it to stop, and say so, I'll go along, but that wouldn't be my preference.
I agree. I find the engineering challenge of the airplanes a lot of fun. Rarely do students have an opportunity to launch their creation from such a lofty site and some of our students will actually work on designs ahead of Championships. As far as dumping paper or throwing balls of paper - that is simply mindless vandalism. Akin to kicking over garbage cans.
Personally, I think the paper airplanes have a lot more going for them than the confetti dumped at the end of the competition. I know from experience it is a lot easier to clean up paper airplanes than small bits of 'confetti'. The confetti lasts all of 5 minutes, gets everywhere, sticks to everything.
As the quoted post mentions, making and throwing the airplanes is an exercise in social engagement. Thousands of students are taking part in a shared engineering challenge. Each has the opportunity to immediately evaluate the success of the others by simple observation and seeing a successful design, speculate on its construction and try it for themselves. Science Centres pay buckets for that kind of social interpretive experience.
I haven't really heard anyone official from FIRST saying to stop testing airplanes. On the contrary, I feel the responses of speakers (Dean) to incoming flyers actually encourages the students. If the organizers were to crack down on anything, I would prefer it to be dumping paper or throwing balls of paper. Continue to encourage experimentation, innovation and creativity in social experiences and I think you would discourage the other stuff.
I do agree with most people that throwing planes onto the field while the competition is happening is pretty poor judgement though.
I think the main issue here, is that there is a lot of waiting around. It is probably too late to organise something like this, but why not give the option to a few teams who didn’t make it to Einstein, but were in the Eliminations to volunteer their robots for some separate competitions before Einstein Occurs, or during long breaks.
Here are some examples of things that happened at events in previous years:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efvCDYTj0Wk
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66977&highlight=drag+race (this happened at champs in 2008)
There are a lot of robots with treads and hi-traction pneumatic wheels this year. I think a 3 vs 3 tug of war; with 3 tracked robots vs 3 wheeled robots would be awesome.
Could these be conducted on the concrete arena floor or on carpet, near the Mass and Energy fields?
I haven't really heard anyone official from FIRST saying to stop testing airplanes.
Does Frank (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129277) count as official?
Chris Hibner
20-04-2016, 20:12
I could go on. They're fun.
Yes, we could be staring into our cell phones instead. I prefer this.
They're not so fun when someone gets injured.
I hate to be the old "it's all fun and games until someone loses and eye", but...
I have been hit within a half inch of my eye on three separate occasions by a paper plane at the championship. And when they come from 100 feet overhead, they can hit with a fair amount of force. It was significant enough that I was seriously thankful that it missed my eye. I don't know about you, but I value my eyesight. This is why I'm so against it.
I swear I'm not that old, even though it seems like it in this thread. I'm just sick and tired of getting hit near my eyes.
Does Frank (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129277) count as official?
Not exactly a loud and clear position. If FIRST wants to stop students (and mentors) from throwing airplanes during finals, then it would make sense to be absolutely clear about it. This reads more as an opinion than an official statement. Was anything said the next year before things began? I seem to recall being encouraged during the official speeches to make and throw them.
To be honest, I agree with Frank about one thing. It's a minor issue in the scheme of things.
I think the main issue here, is that there is a lot of waiting around. It is probably too late to organise something like this, but why not give the option to a few teams who didn’t make it to Einstein, but were in the Eliminations to volunteer their robots for some separate competitions before Einstein Occurs, or during long breaks.
Here are some examples of things that happened at events in previous years:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efvCDYTj0Wk
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66977&highlight=drag+race (this happened at champs in 2008)
There are a lot of robots with treads and hi-traction pneumatic wheels this year. I think a 3 vs 3 tug of war; with 3 tracked robots vs 3 wheeled robots would be awesome.
Could these be conducted on the concrete arena floor or on carpet, near the Mass and Energy fields?
This would be awesome. Great idea! Put us down for power shooting and tug of war! Unless of course our robot is otherwise (hopefully) occupied!
A possible compromise:
Distribute flyers announcing a paper airplane contest, possibly stuffing one in each program book or taking other pains to spread them widely but thinly. Use an unusual paper color. Encourage people to write their name and team number (or other contact information for non-team members) on the flyer, fold it into a plane, and launch it during a brief (2-5 minute) window during the buildup to Einstein. Have some sort of call out for the first person to hit the curtain, and perhaps a few other categories. Make it clear, both on the flyer and through announcements, that throwing paper airplanes (or other paper missiles) at other times or made of other materials is cause for expulsion.
synth3tk
20-04-2016, 20:40
And here's where random trivia about streamers that I know comes in handy. The game with the largest capacity that Jackbox offers is Lie Swatter, for 1-100 players supposedly, but crashes spectacularly (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RJDCsOshic) when there's more than 400 players. It would be interesting to try to work with Jackbox (or any other mobile gaming company) for a party game that works with literally thousands of players.
Interesting. I wonder how he was able to get 300+ in there.
This would be awesome. Great idea! Put us down for power shooting and tug of war! Unless of course our robot is otherwise (hopefully) occupied!
I vote for mentor drive team matches.
This would be awesome. Great idea! Put us down for power shooting and tug of war! Unless of course our robot is otherwise (hopefully) occupied!
Power shooting sounds awesome and something that would be great to watch. We can get some real results on whose robot can shooter the furthest(not necessarily into the goal). This could happen between Einstein and the finale, as it wouldn't necessarily take too long.
I like the mentor robot driving!
Anyone else have any ideas?
bigbeezy
21-04-2016, 00:32
Personally I'm scared one of my kids will get hurt by one of these things. I've seen kids and adults, literally all ages, fold paper into sharp points and throw it as hard as they physically can. Having known more than one person to get hit in the eye with one how is this still a thing and how someone hasn't gotten severely injured... I recommend to my kids to wear safety glasses in the stands during this time, tho who wants to when you shouldn't need to.
As an alum, this is the most embarrassing part of Champs. Please walk in the aisles of the lower bowl prior to Einstein and walk on the actual concrete. It's impossible. You are only walking on trash.
As someone who had the honor to be on the field during Einstein last year. How rediculous is it that we have trash being thrown into our robot during the break. Why do I need to have my drivers adjust the placing of a stack because someone thought it'd be fun to throw trash onto the field during play! Why does Dean have to pause his speach because someone threw a plane onto the stage?? I just don't understand how this is a thing. It's just disrespectful. I never remember more than a handful of planes thrown in Atlanta in the 6 years I attended. I could have remembered wrong, but I don't remember it ever being what it is in St Louis.
This would be awesome. Great idea! Put us down for power shooting and tug of war! Unless of course our robot is otherwise (hopefully) occupied!
If they do something like last year where they do a moment of silence for all the FIRST participants we've lost in the last year, a 21 boulder salute could probably be arranged at the end of it.
rich2202
21-04-2016, 06:13
How about showing a movie like: Slingshot, Underwater Dreams, Spare Parts ...
They could stop the movie when something is happening, and resume the movie during extended breaks.
Carolyn_Grace
21-04-2016, 06:19
No where else in FIRST do people argue to put fun and engineering ahead of safety and gracious professionalism, but when it comes to paper airplanes, apparently there's exceptions...
Joe Johnson
21-04-2016, 07:33
One suggestion for giving them something to do that I think might work is to have some folks make up some clever PollEveryWhere Questions (I have no stock in the company but I'm a big fan).
There are a TON of very cool things that you could do with a crowd that big and the huge screens they have.
Ask which field has the best robot alliance on Einstein and watch the results live -- more and more people vote as they see the "wrong" team winning (wrong in this context is any result they don't agree with).
Ask for suggestions from the audience for future game elements and watch a live wordcloud be generated with everyone's answers (swear filters available) -- of course WATER GAME will end up in a HUGE font in the middle of the wordcloud.
Vote for defenses, ask questions about the design challenge this year, maybe pick the best FIRST game ever in a multipart vote off (which was better Hexagon Havoc or Aim High?)...
I think this could be a huge hit and lots of fun actually.
Dr. Joe J.
synth3tk
21-04-2016, 07:39
I vote for mentor drive team matches.
I like the mentor robot driving!
Some off-season events do this, too. I like the idea of mentor matches!
GoblinDarts
21-04-2016, 23:44
And here's where random trivia about streamers that I know comes in handy. The game with the largest capacity that Jackbox offers is Lie Swatter, for 1-100 players supposedly, but crashes spectacularly (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RJDCsOshic) when there's more than 400 players. It would be interesting to try to work with Jackbox (or any other mobile gaming company) for a party game that works with literally thousands of players.
So I did a quick search that can be a bit of an alternative, like Kahoot but on a more capable, diverse, and larger scale. The website for it is http://www.crowdpurr.com and under the plans it has an option for contacting them for extremely large events, claiming that there max participant count is unlimited. I doubt FIRST would have time to plan this at this point so close to Champs, but it can be a posible thought for next year and finding ways to fill in time. Also could be a way to educate people on funny facts/trivia of FIRST.
Jared Russell
21-04-2016, 23:49
Do audience selection of defenses on Einstein by having two large circles on the ground labelled "1" and "2". Whichever circle ends up with more paper airplanes in it wins, and that defense is selected.
itsjustjon
21-04-2016, 23:51
Do audience selection of defenses on Einstein by having two large circles on the ground labelled "1" and "2". Whichever circle ends up with more paper airplanes in it wins, and that defense is selected.
This is amazing and messy at the same time. I like it.
216Robochick288
22-04-2016, 00:22
Actually, I'm a mentor that doesn't think this is that big of deal.
Yes, airplanes shouldn't be thrown when important things are happening and they shouldn't have anything but paper in them. But certainly they're not more dangerous than great big beach balls that routinely hit people in the head.
(snip rest doesnt matter for what I have to say)
Beach balls are round, soft, and even when thrown from a height lands with a soft poof before heading off in a direction.
Airplaines have points and are made to cut through the air at a decent clip. Thank you, even without anything on them, THEY CAN CAUSE INJURIES. Wanna tell me otherwise? You can talk to both myself and my student who got hit in the eyebrow hard enough to get her eyebrow to bleed, and myself in the back of the head after trying to get to her to treat her, only to trip on several while trying to get to my student. I also have watched several grandparents go through at the end trying to walk on canes/walkers and whatnot and slipping. I had to hold one up as he walked out because the number of planes on the ground were causing issues with the walkways being super slick.
I have told all the teams that I mentor to not, and I will continue to do so. If I can somehow be out on the field when Einstein rolls around Im going to ask the MC to at least mention to be aware of when and when to not throw them, if you decide to at all. Throwing planes when presenters are talking or when a match is going is in no way shape or fourme acceptable. At that point if I saw my student do that Id treat them like I do with my LL students who wont stop pestering each other. Sit nicely in the chair with your hands on your knees until you calm down and can handle yourself.
Frank has said it, and a lot of prominent voices have said it. Ill add mine officially to the CD "Im an old fart (22 counts right?) who condones the throwing of paper airplanes" group.
EDIT: Someone once told me to participate in FIRST as if all our collective grandparents were watching. I would not want them to see us disrespecting speakers, interrupting matches, or creating a hazardous environment for people to walk around in. Find better ways to entertain yourself please :deadhorse:
Found this on Reddit today.... I'm just going to leave it here.
https://gfycat.com/SingleDeepEidolonhelvum
FIRST is about as proactive about the paper airplanes as they are about seat saving. They make a mention of it and leave it at that ("Saving seats is bad!!" *waves a disapproving finger). If they wanted it to stop they could get really nasty about it and threaten to take away awards from teams that toss paper airplanes and the activity would stop cold because suddenly something teams actually care about("OMG! NO BLUE BANNER?") is being taken away and you'd never see another plane. Alas, FIRST has no interest in doing that and does not have the personnel to police the activity so the planes will keep on flying from now til Armageddon til someone ends up losing an eye and sues FIRST and FIRST does do something about the activity to avoid future legal action.
synth3tk
22-04-2016, 07:49
So basically like any other company: Defer until it's the only option you have.
Tharioth Pillow
22-04-2016, 09:14
As a team, we spent about an hour discussing this sensitive topic last night.
The final conclusion was that we wouldn't throw them.
OccamzRazor
22-04-2016, 14:34
It may be extreme but I told my team if I caught any students throwing them then they would be expelled from the team for the 2017 season.
If your team worked hard enough to make it to Einstein and your driver gets hit in the ear by an airplane during F-3 and it costs them that boulder shot for the win do you think the refs will replay the game? Probably not.
It is immensely unprofessional as well as disrespectful to the facility, the volunteers, and the teams that worked to be on that floor. Although it may be fun to do, you will inevitably have people who abuse that fun and stick pennies in nose of the plane and other nasty things to hit people with.
Matter of fact, I saw one kid steal a roll of paper towels from the bathroom (the big heavy brown paper kind) and toss it over the edge. It did not unspool the entire roll before it hit a luckily empty chair several feet below the deck with a loud neck cracking thump. What if that had hit someone? Obviously that is different than tossing a paper plane but I feel like throwing things has only inspired the throwing of more daring objects.
Just enforce it so it does not get out of hand on your individual teams even if you do not take a hard stance on planes. It really is a huge safety concern to be hit in the eye by a plane. As much as they police safety glasses I am astounded this has not been addressed yet. I used to enjoy taking my glasses off to watch matches at Championships but not anymore.
As far as people calling it a "FIRST Tradition"..... please stop. I have never once seen Championships have as many planes as I did in the 2014 and 2015 seasons. 03, 04, 05, and even up to 2011 you did not see hardly any planes being tossed like you do now.
It has gotten out of hand.
SteveGPage
22-04-2016, 14:46
To echo what has been said here, for the many reasons expressed, we don't believe that it is appropriate either. We talked to the team last night and said, even if a speaker "encourages" it they are not to do so. The only way they are allowed to throw anything, is if Dean himself gets on the stage and asks them to do it. Otherwise, anyone caught doing it will be removed from the dome, and their future participation on the team would certainly be in doubt. Any planes that land in our area, will be immediately put into a trash bag that we will have with us in the stands.
836 will not be throwing paper airplanes in the dome.
Steve
pfreivald
22-04-2016, 14:57
Ask:
1. Is what I'm doing to stave off boredom safe?
2. Is it courteous to others?
3. Will it not make a mess that others will have to clean up?
For paper airplanes thrown in a stadium, the answers are no, no, and no. That's a triple tortuga on the courtesy outer works.
Don't throw airplanes. It's obnoxious.
RoboChair
22-04-2016, 14:59
This is a gun
It shoots paper airplanes
http://www.nerdist.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Paper-Airplane-GIF-1.gif
Far more entertaining than confetti.
wilsonmw04
22-04-2016, 15:47
This is a gun
It shoots paper airplanes
Far more entertaining than confetti.
What's your point?
RoboChair
22-04-2016, 16:00
What's your point?
That releasing streams of blunt nosed paper airplanes instead of confetti would be far more entertaining while still providing around the same level of clean up clutter.
Tharioth Pillow
22-04-2016, 16:05
That releasing streams of blunt nosed paper airplanes instead of confetti would be far more entertaining while still providing around the same level of clean up clutter.
No one said anything about confetti... Also, they're still a pain in the neck to clean up.
RoboChair
22-04-2016, 16:12
What about the confetti? should we stop that too? That's actually provided by the organizers.
No, because it's fun too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=340rbguRulo
Celebratory confetti is different. It's something the winning Alliance has earned and I imagine the venue knows about well in advance with all of the setup for the system.
Personally, I think the paper airplanes have a lot more going for them than the confetti dumped at the end of the competition. I know from experience it is a lot easier to clean up paper airplanes than small bits of 'confetti'. The confetti lasts all of 5 minutes, gets everywhere, sticks to everything.
No one said anything about confetti... Also, they're still a pain in the neck to clean up.
lots of people brought up confetti...
Im ready for Championships.....
http://www.amazon.com/PowerUp-Smartphone-Controlled-Paper-Airplane/dp/B00N8GWZ4M/ref=sr_1_84?s=boost&srs=12034491011&ie=UTF8&qid=1461356114&sr=1-84
jajabinx124
22-04-2016, 16:19
No one said anything about confetti... Also, they're still a pain in the neck to clean up.
Confetti is used to celebrate a winner or something and while it is a pain in the neck to clean up, there is a cause behind releasing confetti. Whereas paper air planes are thrown for fun from the stands and that act itself is disrespectful IMO. There is a difference.
Also I dislike them also because they do hurt. My freshman year during 2013 during Einstein someone chucked one with a bunch of buttons attached on it and it smacked into my head. While it wasn't the end of the world I was still startled/a bit in pain.
Zebra_Fact_Man
22-04-2016, 16:20
Im ready for Championships.....
http://www.amazon.com/PowerUp-Smartphone-Controlled-Paper-Airplane/dp/B00N8GWZ4M/ref=sr_1_84?s=boost&srs=12034491011&ie=UTF8&qid=1461356114&sr=1-84
Oh man. In the hands of skilled drivers, this is a dangerous tool.
TheModMaster8
22-04-2016, 16:48
One of the issues is that the majority of the airplanes end of littering the dome floor, which is at the end of the competition rightfully reserved for celebration of the winning team.
There just isn't the option of allowing other people down on the dome to help clean up.
Respectfully, your sentiment of "If I'm going to throw paper airplanes, I might as well help pick them up." just isn't an option. If you truly believe you should help clean up your own messes, then don't make the mess in the first place.
False. the hardest part of cleaning the airplanes is having to walk through the stands and check every row, if they land on the court they can simple be swept into a pile and disposed of. helping by gathering them around the stands would be a big help to those volunteers and that should be done by everyone
marshall
22-04-2016, 17:16
Oh man. In the hands of skilled drivers, this is a dangerous tool.
I don't think you'll be able to keep signal to it beyond about 20ft inside the dome without a serious antenna or amp... but I could be wrong.
Of course, you could just not throw paper airplanes in the dome.
216Robochick288
23-04-2016, 01:01
Im ready for Championships.....
http://www.amazon.com/PowerUp-Smartphone-Controlled-Paper-Airplane/dp/B00N8GWZ4M/ref=sr_1_84?s=boost&srs=12034491011&ie=UTF8&qid=1461356114&sr=1-84
If you are going to throw airplanes absolutely in no way should you add weight to it. I would really like to not be hit in the face with that.
Some of the Torbot mentors were discussing the topic today. Add us to the "no throw zone" crowd. At least as much as possible...
Our students will certainly not be participating in paper airplane throwing. Lots of waste for little reason or gain.
Kit Gerhart
23-04-2016, 08:36
The cleanup should not be much of an issue. After we leave, large numbers of people go down the aisles and collect the soda bottles, food wrappers, confetti they dump at the end of the ceremony, etc., just as they clean up the beer cups and hot dog wrappers after a football game.
The problem, is that it is very inconsiderate to fly the airplanes during the ceremony itself, and during matches.
IronicDeadBird
23-04-2016, 18:10
Crowd based games are one fairly simple solution to this. FIRST could do trivia and have people tweet the answers. They could do bingo. People could also be more proactive about promoting the different opportunities at the event like conferences. I'd want to say they could have a video game tournament.
There are other things you can do at St Louis.
And don't tell me someone accidentally made and threw a paper airplane that was a decision, and you can decide to do any of the other things there.
pfreivald
23-04-2016, 18:33
The cleanup should not be much of an issue. After we leave, large numbers of people go down the aisles and collect the soda bottles, food wrappers, confetti they dump at the end of the ceremony, etc., just as they clean up the beer cups and hot dog wrappers after a football game.
The problem, is that it is very inconsiderate to fly the airplanes during the ceremony itself, and during matches.
I disagree. It's *also* discourteous to leave soda bottles, food wrappers, [beer] cups, hot dog wrappers, and everything else for the cleaning staff (who will have enough to do regardless)--and if FIRST can do anything at all right, it can teach a generation of kids both to clean up after themselves and to not make more of a mess than they have to.
Kit Gerhart
23-04-2016, 19:04
I disagree. It's *also* discourteous to leave soda bottles, food wrappers, [beer] cups, hot dog wrappers, and everything else for the cleaning staff (who will have enough to do regardless)--and if FIRST can do anything at all right, it can teach a generation of kids both to clean up after themselves and to not make more of a mess than they have to.
It is expected that trash will be left in the stands at the Edward Jones Dome, and at the venues for most of the regionals. There are few places to deposit trash, and even fewer places to recycle stuff. I'm not saying it should be that way, but it is. Do the operators of the venue expect the guests to collect the confetti?
As far as paper airplanes, weight should certainly not be added. That is a safety hazard.
It is expected that trash will be left in the stands at the Edward Jones Dome, and at the venues for most of the regionals. There are few places to deposit trash, and even fewer places to recycle stuff. I'm not saying it should be that way, but it is.
Expected isn't the same as courteous. Anyone who wants to be responsible for their own trash can easily succeed.
Chi Meson
23-04-2016, 21:34
Organize a paper airplane competition.
I recall seeing some fine gliders in 2014. I must admit it was fascinating. Having read the arguments, I will be instructing my team to leave all paper behind as we sit down for Einstein, but as other have said, If FIRST would make it clear that throwing airplanes is not acceptable, it would help a lot.
But the wait in 2014 was excruciating. So much waiting, and inaudible speeches, and more and more of the same ------- "music" we listened to all season long, and waiting and waiting, and the worst $5 pretzel mankind has ever created, and hours before we can get dinner...
I just didn't think of the paper airplanes as being the worst aspect of that evening.
So sanction it, make it official and safe. Put together simple rules: specific launching area (off to the side), target zone, wait your turn, launch maybe 5 at a time, end abruptly when ceremonies begin. We can applaud the good ones, laugh at the "bombers," it could be a blast.
And it would far fewer pieces of paper compared to the "mass garbage toss" we've been seeing.
Al Skierkiewicz
24-04-2016, 21:24
I disagree. It's *also* discourteous to leave soda bottles, food wrappers, [beer] cups, hot dog wrappers, and everything else for the cleaning staff (who will have enough to do regardless)--and if FIRST can do anything at all right, it can teach a generation of kids both to clean up after themselves and to not make more of a mess than they have to.
Pat,
If we could only get that through to the party people who attend concerts and theaters these days. It is pretty nasty trying to pull cables out of that mess when striking a TV production after everyone has left. One event I worked had less than 500 people in the audience. The cleanup crew started picking up recyclables first and filled two 55 gallon drums with glass bottles.
pfreivald
26-04-2016, 16:13
Pat,
If we could only get that through to the party people who attend concerts and theaters these days. It is pretty nasty trying to pull cables out of that mess when striking a TV production after everyone has left. One event I worked had less than 500 people in the audience. The cleanup crew started picking up recyclables first and filled two 55 gallon drums with glass bottles.
It's pretty appalling the condition that most people leave things, with the excuse that someone's going to have to clean it up anyway.
Chris_Ely
28-04-2016, 19:09
I am seeing planes already during opening ceremonies, from the webcast. Remember this is being broadcast all over the world. Mentors, please keep your students from throwing planes.
marshall
28-04-2016, 19:14
I am seeing planes already during opening ceremonies, from the webcast. Remember this is being broadcast all over the world. Mentors, please keep your students from throwing planes.
It's worse than that. I'm taking a phone call because of work but I can tell you that paper scraps were thrown over the upper balconies landing on the sponsors. It's very uncool and I really wish we were all better than this.
I am seeing planes already during opening ceremonies, from the webcast. Remember this is being broadcast all over the world. Mentors, please keep your students from throwing planes.
And they're already piling up.
NOT a good thing.
TheModMaster8
28-04-2016, 22:53
you people are sticks in the mud, lighten up a little, and let kids be kids. it has happened every year and it will most likely happen every year until FIRST bans it. telling students off only make it worse, so if you want to stop your team from doing it then just do that, but you don't have a right to tell those of us who are not on your team to stop because you find it disrespectful or immature.
If "letting kids be kids" results in someone losing an eye, are those kids going to take responsibility?
Or are the mentors who are allowing the kids to do so going to feel the heat?
Correct answer: Yes.
I don't know about you, but I'd rather not have to deal with all the paperwork. I plan to have a sudoku book on me before Einstein...whether or not I happen to work a puzzle or two remains to be seen. I've seen (at one time long ago) somebody watching Monty Python. While those aren't the greatest things to do, they sure beat paper airplanes for cleanup and non-disruption of speeches.
As far as it happening every year, I can vouch that that's NOT the case. Seems to have started only after FIRST moved the CMP to St. Louis. It leaves a lot of extra trash for somebody to clean up (and I would hope that the throwers do try to clean some up...)
By the way, you're right that we don't have a right to tell those on not on our teams what to do. But... Did you just tell a bunch of folks who aren't on your team what to do? And bear in mind one other thing: Some of those folks you just told that to (and some of the folks down on the floor that might be getting hit by the airplanes) happen to be in positions to hire folks like you--young FIRSTers just getting out of high school and/or college. Would you believe that acting immature and disrespectful can impact your chances of being hired? I think I would.
Jonny_Jee
28-04-2016, 23:20
The issue isn't isolated to just the dome, in past years I've seen paper airplanes falling from hotels rooms and ending up in the streets of St. Louis. This type of behavior, while sparse, is an extension of what goes on in the dome. :(
orangemoore
28-04-2016, 23:55
The planes have already touched down.
http://i.imgur.com/kJm8jqw.jpg
They actually distracted me from the ceremony. Not cool.
This was my first time at champs. The first paper plane I've seen thrown at a FIRST event, ever, hit a kid in the side of the face, narrowly missing his eye today. Seriously, this kind of thing is not representative of FIRST. They audibly distracted from ceremony speakers, and nearly caused at least one injury. Potentially dangerous litter like this should not be seen as normal or acceptable in the FIRST community.
Richard Wallace
29-04-2016, 00:34
you people are sticks in the mud, lighten up a little, and let kids be kids.
This is just plane wrong.
you people are sticks in the mud, lighten up a little, and let kids be kids. it has happened every year and it will most likely happen every year until FIRST bans it. telling students off only make it worse, so if you want to stop your team from doing it then just do that, but you don't have a right to tell those of us who are not on your team to stop because you find it disrespectful or immature.
Some people only get the first marshmallow. Some use a little impulse control, and wait to get two.
Anupam Goli
29-04-2016, 00:54
The planes have already touched down.
http://i.imgur.com/kJm8jqw.jpg
They actually distracted me from the ceremony. Not cool.
It's completely unacceptable. The guest speakers' companies generously donate more money and resources than some may see in a lifetime. The least we can do to thank them is listen attentively for a few minutes...
marshall
29-04-2016, 02:19
you people are sticks in the mud
Not really. I'm quite rowdy and fun.
lighten up a little, and let kids be kids.
No.
it has happened every year and it will most likely happen every year until FIRST bans it.
That doesn't make it right and let us all hope that this is that year.
telling students off only make it worse
Not really, most of them are scared of authority. It's pretty effective and personally I feel that appealing to their rational side should make a difference. Please stop throwing the planes?
so if you want to stop your team from doing it then just do that
I did and my team isn't competing this year. I'm here representing my company and trying to drag them into this as a corporate sponsor at an international level. My goals are made more difficult by hormone-riddled teenagers having conniption fits about throwing paper airplanes though.
but you don't have a right to tell those of us who are not on your team to stop because you find it disrespectful or immature.
I think we are well within our rights. You can ignore us but we can still think of you as immature and disrespectful and ask you to stop in an authoritative voice.
you people are sticks in the mud, lighten up a little, and let kids be kids. it has happened every year and it will most likely happen every year until FIRST bans it. telling students off only make it worse, so if you want to stop your team from doing it then just do that, but you don't have a right to tell those of us who are not on your team to stop because you find it disrespectful or immature.Then you can get off your butt and help clean up the mess they made. I'm not doing it this year!
protoserge
29-04-2016, 05:25
That spread of planes is class act. Exactly the image we want. Let's put fun and games ahead of values we are trying to impress on the students as role models. :rolleyes:
Is it OK to toss your bag of fast food out the window of your car while driving? Seems like we are endorsing it by letting it happen. Don't worry though, those adopted highways have trash cleaning groups twice a year. But what about the hawk that was hit by a car while swooping down in traffic to kill its prey that was consuming the leftovers? Don't pick up that plastic bottle you walked by on the trail - discard yours along side it. There is a biweekly trail club that picks it up.
Maybe those of us against this simple act are trying to influence a generation to think about how their actions have consequences.
I don't see how this is still an argument that needs to continue.
IronicDeadBird
29-04-2016, 14:53
but you don't have a right to tell those of us who are not on your team to stop because you find it disrespectful or immature.
Yeah but people that sponsor your team have the right to pull funding because they think that you represent them poorly.
Schools have the right to say "you know we sent you there to compete at a robotics competition not to make a mess of a place" and stop you from going.
Teams have the right to pick alliances based not only on the robot but if running with a certain team will make them look bad.
Actions have consequences. Ignoring those consequences does not make them go away.
I would agree throw them when/if you are told, I would advise anyone reading this thread to not throw balls of paper at any time and planes should only be thrown when you are told. It is very annoying when you are trying to concentrate on a match and you get hit by trash.
TheModMaster8
29-04-2016, 23:37
If "letting kids be kids" results in someone losing an eye, are those kids going to take responsibility?
Or are the mentors who are allowing the kids to do so going to feel the heat?
Correct answer: Yes.
I don't know about you, but I'd rather not have to deal with all the paperwork. I plan to have a sudoku book on me before Einstein...whether or not I happen to work a puzzle or two remains to be seen. I've seen (at one time long ago) somebody watching Monty Python. While those aren't the greatest things to do, they sure beat paper airplanes for cleanup and non-disruption of speeches.
As far as it happening every year, I can vouch that that's NOT the case. Seems to have started only after FIRST moved the CMP to St. Louis. It leaves a lot of extra trash for somebody to clean up (and I would hope that the throwers do try to clean some up...)
By the way, you're right that we don't have a right to tell those on not on our teams what to do. But... Did you just tell a bunch of folks who aren't on your team what to do? And bear in mind one other thing: Some of those folks you just told that to (and some of the folks down on the floor that might be getting hit by the airplanes) happen to be in positions to hire folks like you--young FIRSTers just getting out of high school and/or college. Would you believe that acting immature and disrespectful can impact your chances of being hired? I think I would.
The thing about text is that you can't take the writers tone at which they mean it by, For example, if you read it in a snarky or mal-intent tone, then yes it would be disrespectful, however if you read it in a semi-serious and slap-happy way, the results are about as night is to day. (I also thought it was quite evident that you would be able to see the typical stereotypes here, young people thinking adults are boring parents telling other parents to "let kids be kids" and ext. However I can see that this was lost on many if not all of you. read it)
"telling students off only make it worse" was me informing you of the kind of mindset you will be going up against.
"so if you want to stop your team from doing it then just do that," Was me giving you advice on how to minimize it (if every mentor did this for there own team then no one would be throwing airplanes!)
"but you don't have a right to tell those of us who are not on your team to stop because you find it disrespectful or immature." Was me giving you a fact which can also be taken as telling you.
I do agree with you all on the disrespect on doing this during speeches and awards, however I do not see doing this during dull moments immature, as long as the (throwers of the planes) pick up as many planes as they made and thrown before leaving,
and other then this you and everyone else who has posted on here, and I will not see eye to eye on this matter, as this was the most memorable and inspiring thing i got to witness and partake in during my first year going to worlds. so forgive me for being defensive over something i see as important (for real... not being smart A or anything)
TheModMaster8
29-04-2016, 23:52
Then you can get off your butt and help clean up the mess they made. I'm not doing it this year! I have, every year Ive gone to worlds... extensively, Ive also been hit, have hit some else and made apologies and stopped when asked, even though they where more then angry at me. not because of authority but rather a moral code I've instilled in myself when it would have been much easier to reply in an unfit manner.
I did and my team isn't competing this year. I'm here representing my company and trying to drag them into this as a corporate sponsor at an international level. My goals are made more difficult by hormone-riddled teenagers having conniption fits about throwing paper airplanes though.
If your company cant see past the hormones of KIDS and see the value that these kids have learned and done, then there is a bigger problem then what you're complaining (for lack of a better word) about
If your company cant see past the hormones of KIDS and see the value that these kids have learned and done, then there is a bigger problem then what you're complaining (for lack of a better word) aboutIf someone can't exercise enough self-restraint to not toss paper airplanes, just because they happen to find themselves in a large building, then I'm afraid that whatever they might have learned from FIRST is a house built on sand.
Houses built on sand aren't sought after.
Blake
...
"but you don't have a right to tell those of us who are not on your team to stop because you find it disrespectful or immature." Was me giving you a fact which can also be taken as telling you.
...
Sure he does. It takes a village.
No one is supposed to be throwing anything at other people (bystanders) in the dome. Where-o-where did you ever get the notion into your head that anything else was correct?
If you want to plant your flag of rebellion/independence, you should pick a more important subject - Preferably one in which civility, local regulations, and laws are on your side; or one in which a great injustice needs to be corrected - This subject is neither.
Blake
TheModMaster8
30-04-2016, 01:26
Sure he does. It takes a village.
No one is supposed to be throwing anything at other people (bystanders) in the dome. Where-o-where did you ever get the notion into your head that anything else was correct?
If you want to plant your flag of rebellion/independence, you should pick a more important subject - Preferably one in which civility, local regulations, and laws are on your side; or one in which a great injustice needs to be corrected - This subject is neither.
Blake
Who ever said throwing them at people? as far as I'm aware, it is to get the airplane to go the furthest, it just turns out that a lot of people suck at making airplanes. By what authority were you given to say that your stance on a matter is correct? were do you get off calling me or anyone else that partakes in this action rebellious. I personally have not seen nor heard FIRST request/ prohibit people to stop. so technically the rules would are on my side, as you are trying to enforce a none existent rule onto others because you find the act distasteful,
If someone can't exercise enough self-restraint to not toss paper airplanes, just because they happen to find themselves in a large building, then I'm afraid that whatever they might have learned from FIRST is a house built on sand. What a faulty notion. if someone throws a paper airplane then everything they have learned will fall apart? Last year a high ranking official from the United States Air Force complimented this activity and even when so far out to take the ones on the stage with him to remember FIRST by. I don't know about you but That man obviously saw something you all did not. I can't and wont force my opinions down your throat.( I'm also finished with this topic as the amount of criticism I've received from you all if much greater then what I feel I deserve for such a topic.)
marshall
30-04-2016, 01:53
I have, every year Ive gone to worlds... extensively, Ive also been hit, have hit some else and made apologies and stopped when asked, even though they where more then angry at me. not because of authority but rather a moral code I've instilled in myself when it would have been much easier to reply in an unfit manner.
If your company cant see past the hormones of KIDS and see the value that these kids have learned and done, then there is a bigger problem then what you're complaining (for lack of a better word) about
Just because someone or a group of someone's is willing to see past a problem doesn't mean there isn't a problem. My simple suggestion and ask is please stop throwing the planes.
No one is disputing that paper airplanes are fun. In fact, I'm sure we would all love to throw paper airplanes, however, they seriously inconvenience event staff and volunteers. After a long and hard week of working at championships, the last thing volunteers want to do is spend hours cleaning up paper airplanes. While it may not be an official rule, it is the respectful thing to do. Let's all take some time to thank all of the volunteers today by being respectful and not create excessive litter for them to clean up.
Who ever said throwing them at people? as far as I'm aware, it is to get the airplane to go the furthest, it just turns out that a lot of people suck at making airplanes. By what authority were you given to say that your stance on a matter is correct? were do you get off calling me or anyone else that partakes in this action rebellious. I personally have not seen nor heard FIRST request/ prohibit people to stop. so technically the rules would are on my side, as you are trying to enforce a none existent rule onto others because you find the act distasteful,
You'll pardon me for saying this, but when you throw from any level of the dome, there are people below you, am I not correct? I do realize that you're not throwing AT those people, but you are most certainly throwing TOWARDS those people, and the fact that they are below you makes your paper airplane much more dangerous. And the fact that you're throwing towards people and cannot aim once you've released your projectile means that you may as well be throwing at them.
Additionally, you might not have heard it, but Frank (Director of FRC) has posted on the FRC blog in the past to not do it, AND some of my team has told me that there was an announcement yesterday. Whether you pay attention to those announcements or not, it has been announced, at very high levels of FRC. The rules of FRC might not have been updated, but they are rather not on your side here.
I believe that uncivil behavior is, in fact, a card-grade penalty (after a talk with appropriate officials, that is). Should, of course, throwing paper airplanes be regarded as uncivil behavior (depending on timing, it's a minimum of disrespectful), and should, of course, the throwers be identified, then that's what they can expect.
... I ... wont force my opinions down your throat. ...
I'm pretty sure that is exactly the result, if you throw an airplane without having convinced this audience that your opinion is correct.
BrennanB
30-04-2016, 07:57
If your company cant see past the hormones of KIDS and see the value that these kids have learned and done, then there is a bigger problem then what you're complaining (for lack of a better word) about
Pretty sure kids are intelligent enough to not have to throw garbage onto the field because they are bored. I mean REALLY? are you seriously suggesting that kids are physically incapable of not mass littering a the dome because of hormones!?!?!? That is literally the lamest excuse/reason/explanation I have heard for the pro-throwing paper airplanes like ever. Its not like you are walking down the street and you see a group of teens just throwing garbage around all over the floor/street/icerink/anywhere and you think "pfft, ah well kids hormones, what are you going to do?" Like that doesn't happen. AND if it did, you would likely be disgusted?
Just wow.
marshall
30-04-2016, 07:58
You'll pardon me for saying this, but when you throw from any level of the dome, there are people below you, am I not correct? I do realize that you're not throwing AT those people, but you are most certainly throwing TOWARDS those people, and the fact that they are below you makes your paper airplane much more dangerous. And the fact that you're throwing towards people and cannot aim once you've released your projectile means that you may as well be throwing at them.
Additionally, you might not have heard it, but Frank (Director of FRC) has posted on the FRC blog in the past to not do it, AND some of my team has told me that there was an announcement yesterday. Whether you pay attention to those announcements or not, it has been announced, at very high levels of FRC. The rules of FRC might not have been updated, but they are rather not on your side here.
I believe that uncivil behavior is, in fact, a card-grade penalty (after a talk with appropriate officials, that is). Should, of course, throwing paper airplanes be regarded as uncivil behavior (depending on timing, it's a minimum of disrespectful), and should, of course, the throwers be identified, then that's what they can expect.
Relevant blog from Frank:
http://www.firstinspires.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-2014-Championship-Pros-and-Cons
Paper airplanes – I was on the fence about listing this one, because it could be considered minor, but decided to. We saw a significant increase in the number of paper airplanes being thrown during closing. They are beautiful in flight, but once they touch the ground, they turn to trash – an eyesore that someone needs to pick up. I recognize that throwing paper airplanes is fun, and that folks in the stands don’t have much to do while waiting for ceremonies to start, but as a community I think we are not leaving a positive impression with this. - See more at:
So yeah, it's minor but it's still a problem... and if I've learned anything in my time in FRC it's that ChiefDelphi is the best place to discuss minor problems with highly opinionated people. ;)
So yeah, it's minor but it's still a problem... and if I've learned anything in my time in FRC it's that ChiefDelphi is the best place to discuss minor problems with highly opinionated people. ;)
Though for the record, the amount of planes thrown has definitely also increased between when he posted that blog 2 years ago and now.
http://i.imgur.com/jzlELSq.jpg
Well, it's still field setup and the airplanes are raining down from the stands. I'm really not amused, especially by the people who are intentionally trying to throw them into the Newton Field towers. Come on people, FIRST teams are better than this.
Alex2614
30-04-2016, 14:52
Actually, I'm a mentor that doesn't think this is that big of deal.
Yes, airplanes shouldn't be thrown when important things are happening and they shouldn't have anything but paper in them. But certainly they're not more dangerous than great big beach balls that routinely hit people in the head.
Paper airplanes are
1. an engineering competition
2. a social activity
3. a science demonstration.
I could go on. They're fun.
Yes, we could be staring into our cell phones instead. I prefer this.
Also, yes, OK, it's a big mess. Especially if people bring paper just for this, but in my experience it's been mostly paper from scouting reports, safety 'posters' and re-used paper and I'm mostly unfolding someone else's airplanes and making better ones. First isn't noted for being terribly green. And if you're re-folding planes, then you're 'reusing' right? The stadium-world is used to cleaning up huge messes after every event.
I'm not sure about this, but I suspect the people that have to clean these up are employees of the stadium, paid by the hour. They'll have to sweep the floor anyway, so sweeping airplanes isn't that much of a big deal. This actually gives them more work, hence more money. I doubt you'll hear them complaining if this is correct. Better than sweeping up beer bottles after a football game.
When I read the title 'being proactive' I thought this string would be about looking up and practicing actual airplane designs that are good, that win contests. Not just the boring barely-works dart planes most of you are throwing.
Yes, I mentor in paper airplane design too.
And if the people in charge want it to stop, and say so, I'll go along, but that wouldn't be my preference.
I used to think like this. But the paper airplanes were cool when it was a few here and there that would be cheered for. When you are hit in the back of the head with paper airplanes constantly for six hours, you'll have a different perspective. When they have to replay Einstein matches because of airplanes, you will think differently. I'm sitting here now and hundreds of airplanes are being thrown and falling either in front of my face or to the back of my head constantly. It's not cool anymore.
Watching Einstein isn't all that much fun when you're being pelted in the back of the head every minute with poorly made paper airplanes.
XaulZan11
30-04-2016, 15:03
Interesting that they announce to everyone to turn off wireless on their phones, but say nothing about airplanes. I guess if people feel strongly about this, contacting/complaining to FIRST may be a better idea.
The field volunteers and I sat on the floor of the dome by gate A during opening ceremony on Thursday, and the paper airplanes were raining down on us constantly throughout the ceremony. At best, it's annoying to manage and clean off of the floor, and in a number of instances (including my wife) volunteers were hit with planes. You may think they are "just paper" but falling paper, particularly if they have had a trajectory, hurt when they hit you.
After the ceremony, we have to stick around to clean it all up instead of going out to enjoy the city.
From the bottom of my heart, please stop.
This is my team's first trip to champs. I just got hit in the head three times by planes thrown by Stryke Force, who is sitting behind my team. Two of my students also got hit. I've instructed them to wear their safety glasses. I've also spoken to a set of parents from the offending team, who said "it's not our kids" and to their mentor, who called it "innocent fun". I know protocol normally forbids calling out specific teams for behavior but I'm pissed, and I don't mind if they want to smack me down in this forum for calling them out. When sitting in the stands is more likely to result in eye injuries than working on robots in the pits, something is wrong. Next year I'll watch Einstein on the live feed instead.
Watching Einstein isn't all that much fun when you're being pelted in the back of the head every minute with poorly made paper airplanes.
Time to start packing an umbrella!
FiMFanatic
30-04-2016, 15:11
Perhaps while teams wait, each can nominate one plane thrower and they can set up a controlled competition off to the side somewhere.....
If not, the plane tossing and paper dumping needs to stop - we are not 5 year olds.
pmangels17
30-04-2016, 15:25
Out of curiosity, how many people have brought this up to the requisite people in charge of the event, who are in a position to make a change? I feel like the only way to make a change is to demonstrate that enough people are opposed to the practice that it needs to stop. (I'm not saying that this hasn't been done yet, I'm just genuinely curious).
Mike dennis
30-04-2016, 16:24
It is really disappointing seeing the paper airplanes on the stream.
I'm in the stands and just got hit by this! Ridiculous!
https://imgur.com/a/lEKZz
<edit> using Imgur link since I can't resize it right now</edit>
IronicDeadBird
30-04-2016, 17:08
Interesting that they announce to everyone to turn off wireless on their phones, but say nothing about airplanes. I guess if people feel strongly about this, contacting/complaining to FIRST may be a better idea.
Wireless from phones can interfere with the field, if planes were being thrown onto competition fields FIRST would smack it down in a heart beat. There is a difference between tolerating something and being on board with something. FIRST might tolerate the paper airplanes and all the extra clean up they have to do because the crowd gets "bored" but that doesn't mean behind the scenes they are okay with it. I'd be interested in hearing more volunteers and staff voice what opinions.
Just stared down a 50-something "adult" from team 1665 who was throwing not airplanes but wadded up balls of paper at the back of people's heads. Yeah. Tell me it's kids being kids, again.
Jardanium
30-04-2016, 17:25
I personally am the most disgusted at the airplanes made from torn apart spectator programs. FIRST most likely paid a lot for these programs, and I think it's pretty disrespectful to just rip them apart and throw them.
Wireless from phones can interfere with the field, if planes were being thrown onto competition fields FIRST would smack it down in a heart beat.
I did see on the stream one airplane that landed on the field after a match when people were switching out robots and defenses. They can land there. Also, don't forget the match last year that people have referenced where a ref had to remove an airplane just before a match started.
The darts people are throwing down from the upper levels are downright dangerous. I was sitting underneath a ledge in the stands during Ein finals and still had one arc down, glance off my eyeglasses, and STILL hit me in the eye with enough force for it to still be noticeably bloodshot and very sore now, several hours later.
Seriously. Stop throwing those darts.
synth3tk
02-05-2016, 09:49
I sat with a team that I'm friends with during Einstein and saw one of the students in the row ahead of me almost get her eye poked out. Seriously, this thing had to be less than an 1/4" from her eyeball. She held her face for a good minute and I was expecting to see blood once she moved her hands.
Thankfully it didn't do any long-term damage, but the mentors of the offending team would have gotten hell from me if a trip to first-aid was warranted.
Another student also had a plane hit the top of his head with a very audible thud.
These things are legitimately dangerous and getting way out of control. "Kids be kids" is all fine and dandy until it starts seriously impacting others (literally and figuratively). Just because FIRST won't address it directly doesn't mean you should do it anyway. You know it's a safety hazard, be better than that.
wilsonmw04
02-05-2016, 10:26
This year was my first year on the floor. Before this year, I saw airplanes as a not very classy thing that FIRST did when it got bored. Now I see it as a dangerous practice that needs to stop. First, it distracts those on the floor. I know I was surprised by multiple planes that were hits or near misses while on the floor. How can the drivers, coaches, and refs staff wholly focused on the match while getting pelted by trash? Second, they are dangerous to those on the floor. Several of my team members were hit in the head, neck, hair and shoulder areas with planes. Someone was ever hit with a paper "throwing star." It was apparent that the goal of some was just to try and hit someone on the floor with something. Thankfully, we were all wearing safety glasses. ::safety:: These planes are not made from notebook paper. They are made from the heavy glossy stock of the pamphlets and guidebooks. it is not a trivial thing to be hit by them.
FIRST, Please, stop throwing airplanes.
I got hit with someones resume. I plan on sending an email saying that our team would be happy to take him!
Wayne Doenges
02-05-2016, 11:22
I saw planes being thrown during speeches and matches. If people are bored by these than why are they in robotics in the first place? :mad:
natejo99
02-05-2016, 11:31
As a student who has attended champs twice previous to this year, I was slightly upset when our drive coach made the announcement that our team would not be partaking in the airplane throwing this year.
But the more I thought about it, the more I realized that this is the most responsible decision we could make about the issue.
Thinking back on the amount of paper (not necessarily in airplane form) and other trash on the dome floor and in the stands in 2014 and 2015 that had been thrown from the upper levels of the stands, I understand that cleaning that up must have been an absolute nightmare. I understand that some people may consider it "innocent fun", but it stops becoming that when airplanes are hitting people, the field, and even robots out on Einstein. There are plenty of better things to do to occupy yourselves in the stands while waiting for Einstein matches to start, and those options are much less disruptive and much more respectful than throwing garbage from the stands.
I did notice that the amount of airplanes (that I saw at least) thrown this year was much less than the past 2 years. The issue hasn't ceased, but it's getting better. As much as I would like to think that the FIRST community would realize that throwing paper airplanes is disrespectful and dangerous, I think that the only realistic way for this to stop is to have Dean make an announcement that the practice is no longer acceptable, which is an announcement that I think should be made next year.
I had a student proudly tell me that he had thrown 127 airplanes made from pages of the guidebook of the event...
I do hope people realize the shear quantity of planes that are being thrown.
Al Skierkiewicz
02-05-2016, 12:00
I have two things to say here, then you decide.
Does FIRST really have to tell you to stop doing something that you know is damaging, detracts from the overall experience and litters the floor of the very goal (division finals or Einstein fields) all of you are trying to achieve? Does someone have to tell you not to cheat to keep you from doing it? Does it really take someone pointing out to you that you are doing something less than professional for you to recognize that maybe you should stop?
I am on the field during all finals matches. We were seeing airplanes made out of one of those big venue maps made with heavy paper. These missiles were nearly 18" long and with the velocity they were achieving from upper seating areas were making it to the scoring tables on all fields. One hit a volunteer in the back of the head and nearly knocked him over. If you made this device, don't you think you owe someone an apology?
Brandon Holley
02-05-2016, 12:17
Does FIRST really have to tell you to stop doing something that you know is damaging, detracts from the overall experience and litters the floor of the very goal (division finals or Einstein fields) all of you are trying to achieve?
Hey Al- While I certainly agree with your point and the reasoning behind it, wouldn't FIRST simply stating "Please DO NOT throw any materials from your seats" go a long way in extinguishing this practice?
The few people on this thread who have supported the practice start by saying (paraphrasing) "FIRST doesn't tell us not to do it, and they if it mattered to them, they would say so."
So while morally, I completely agree that no one should have to tell you to not do something damaging/silly - I do think a very simple statement would go a very long way. I agree with many people that when we were told to turn off our WiFi, a simple statement of "Stop throwing stuff" would've fit right in.
-Brando
Jessica Boucher
02-05-2016, 12:48
Airplanes aside, please don't throw other things at the volunteers. I had multiple people on the floor tell me they were hit by non-airplane things (water bottles and other trash).
I saw planes being thrown during speeches and matches. If people are bored by these than why are they in robotics in the first place? :mad:
Probably the same reason there are kids up in the stands playing on their laptops and handheld gaming devices. Some kids might only be in it because it gets them out of school :rolleyes:
In terms of the planes though, they need to stop. I've yet to see a good justification for why someone throws them, but plenty of terrible reasons why someone "thinks" it's a good practice.
I'll just add to this with my own personal experience from this weekend.
There were several times throughout our Einstein run where we were legitmately concerned an airplane would find it's way onto the field and cause a field fault in one of those matches we were working to incredibly hard to win. Having something like a paper airplane, only thrown for the sole reason of personal selfish entertainment from that random individual, potentially impact such a monumentally important moment of ours was terrifying. There were airplanes making their way to the scorers tables and over the field several times.
I'm relaying this in hope that the next time anyone has a compusion to throw a paper airplane from the stands in the future they first think about how they would feel if their team was fortunate enough to be playing on the field and a random airplane thrown from the stands caused a field fault that costed your alliance a critical win while trying to win a world championship. That feeling should immediately cause you to unfold that airplane, place that piece of paper back in whatever place you took it from, and then have that initial compulsion transition to one of trying to persuade anyone around you from throwing anything, as well.
Thank you.
Al Skierkiewicz
02-05-2016, 13:44
Brando,
Maybe but I don't think it would help very much. However, I don't think FIRST needs to repeat something your mom already told you. It is appropriate to throw paper airplanes in a paper airplane competition, not so much in a robot competition.
My late mom and Italian grandmother still whisper in my ear. They taught me gracious professionalism before Woodie named it.
(I still remember the meaning of "If everyone in the world jumped in the lake...". Thanks mom!)
Rangel(kf7fdb)
02-05-2016, 14:38
Hey Al- While I certainly agree with your point and the reasoning behind it, wouldn't FIRST simply stating "Please DO NOT throw any materials from your seats" go a long way in extinguishing this practice?
The few people on this thread who have supported the practice start by saying (paraphrasing) "FIRST doesn't tell us not to do it, and they if it mattered to them, they would say so."
So while morally, I completely agree that no one should have to tell you to not do something damaging/silly - I do think a very simple statement would go a very long way. I agree with many people that when we were told to turn off our WiFi, a simple statement of "Stop throwing stuff" would've fit right in.
-Brando
Agreed. It won't ever come close to ending until FIRST makes it very clear they don't want it to happen. Most teams I bet don't even realize it is discouraged and others just think some think it is only grumpy people on CD that complain about it and hate fun. Just the general feelings I have gotten when talking to others about it.
Alan Anderson
02-05-2016, 14:56
Last year a high ranking official from the United States Air Force complimented this activity and even when so far out to take the ones on the stage with him to remember FIRST by. I don't know about you but That man obviously saw something you all did not.
What he saw was a well-constructed and well-thrown paper airplane that reached the area beside the stage. What he did not see from that vantage point was the uncounted hundreds of airplane-shaped wads of paper, ball-shaped wads of paper, and pieces of just plain unfolded paper that hit people in the head.
This year I didn't see anyone dumping piles of unfolded paper over the railings, and I didn't see anyone intentionally throwing their airplanes straight up so they'd have more velocity when they landed on the people nearby. But I saw someone a few rows away from me repeatedly fold the same flawed shape and throw it in the same awkward side-armed way a dozen or more times, getting the same three-foot-forward-then-nosedive result every time. I think he only stopped when he ran out of pages in his program to rip out. I got hit in the back of the neck three times with pointy paper darts by kids of approximately FLL age sitting behind me before I turned around and told them to stop throwing trash at me. I watched people intentionally trying to land paper airplanes on top of a couple of mascots before the parade.
Paper airplanes are fun to throw. They are fun to watch if they are made well and thrown well. But they are distracting and disrespectful when thrown during speeches or robot matches, regardless of quality. And they are just plain dangerous, whether due to hitting people or by causing a slip hazard.
XaulZan11
02-05-2016, 15:24
I saw planes being thrown during speeches and matches. If people are bored by these than why are they in robotics in the first place? :mad:
This is probably a topic for another thread, but between the 2+ hour break, speeches, sideline interviews and dance breaks, I find Einstein boring most of the time.
marshall
02-05-2016, 15:29
This is probably a topic for another thread, but between the 2+ hour break, speeches, sideline interviews and dance breaks, I find Einstein boring most of the time.
I thought the interactive tweet thing this year was pretty cool and felt they should have done more with it.
waialua359
02-05-2016, 15:42
As a team that got good seats watching Einstein, it sucked getting hit constantly by them.
I may be an outlier here, but when those beach balls were being thrown around while I was trying to listen/watch matches and speeches, I simply grabbed them and popped them. Sorry for being a party pooper, but it was very irritating and I wanted to watch the show.
Its why I came to FIRST Worlds!
MooreteP
02-05-2016, 15:55
As a volunteer who has worked on the floor of Einstein for the past 5 years....
...this year, there were significantly fewer paper airplanes.
I would like to thank this thread and its "crowdsourcing" ability that CD has shown as a major contributor to ameliorating this activity.
Anupam Goli
02-05-2016, 15:57
This is probably a topic for another thread, but between the 2+ hour break, speeches, sideline interviews and dance breaks, I find Einstein boring most of the time.
We foresaw that being an issue with our team, so we had the leadership set up a betting ring and structure. Everyone of our kids was so caught up in discussing over/unders and series bets that the gaps between matches seemed very short for us.
(Note: they only bet with candy, no real money was involved)
Chi Meson
07-05-2016, 12:29
Organize a paper airplane competition.
I recall seeing some fine gliders in 2014. I must admit it was fascinating. Having read the arguments, I will be instructing my team to leave all paper behind as we sit down for Einstein, but as other have said, If FIRST would make it clear that throwing airplanes is not acceptable, it would help a lot.
...
I just didn't think of the paper airplanes as being the worst aspect of that evening.
...
That was me two weeks ago. This year, put me firmly in the category of
STOP THE MADNESS!
I think, due to our seats this year (near front row of upper tier to the side), we saw and dealt with the barrage of garbage much more than in years past. The team in front of us paid almost no attention to the Einstein matches because of being obsessed with making terrible plane after terrible plane ripped from spiral bound notebooks and the FIRST Championship program. Most planes made did nothing but dive into the heads of those sitting in front of them. At one point a mentor from a team in front of them came up and angrily told them to stop it. This team only mocked him. When they left (before Einstein was even done) the floor was obscenely littered with FIRST program pages that were poorly ripped out.
I got hit several times.. No blood, but it gets less fun with each occurrence.
So I repeat my last suggestion: sanction it. Make it a coordinated contest, and for cryin' out loud, at the very least, learn how to make a good paper airplane BEFORE you arrive at Championships. 95% of what was thrown (low estimate) was garbage in every sense of the word.
Chi Meson
07-05-2016, 12:36
As a volunteer who has worked on the floor of Einstein for the past 5 years....
...this year, there were significantly fewer paper airplanes.
I would like to thank this thread and its "crowdsourcing" ability that CD has shown as a major contributor to ameliorating this activity.
Wow, that was "fewer"? I think there might have been fewer well constructed planes, but I'll bet there were actually more total pieces of garbage that never made it closer than the 20th row.
Wow, that was "fewer"? I think there might have been fewer well constructed planes, but I'll bet there were actually more total pieces of garbage that never made it closer than the 20th row.
I think there was at least twice as many planes flying last year.
Monochron
08-05-2016, 14:51
As far as it happening every year, I can vouch that that's NOT the case. Seems to have started only after FIRST moved the CMP to St. Louis. It leaves a lot of extra trash for somebody to clean up (and I would hope that the throwers do try to clean some up...)
For what its worth, I remember the planes flying back in 2007 in Atlanta, but they were no where near as prevalent as they were last weekend.
Sperkowsky
08-05-2016, 15:07
After attending champs and being on the floor for Opening Ceremonies, all of Practice, and Qual matches along with Newton Elims I can now say the Paper airplanes have to chill. During field cleanup Friday morning I decided to count how many airplanes I threw out. (42 for anyone that cares). Some of these planes were not even planes I found cups with hollowed out fronts, pieces of paper folded in half, and some crappy oragami slightly resembling planes.
They are fun clearly. I was tempted to throw and few down but didn't. (I did throw one from the floor up but does that count ;) But, they make us look like a bunch of compulsive immature kids.
I want paper airplanes to stay but not like this. There should be one sanctioned time where everyone can get it out of their system. It could look really cool and they can make safety goggles 'Mandatory'. Everyone writes their names and team # on their plane and the plane that reaches the farthest gets the member a prize. It would be a fun time killer. Definitely more fun then yet another speech talking about how inspired we all are and how great FIRST is.
Chi Meson
08-05-2016, 17:22
I want paper airplanes to stay but not like this. There should be one sanctioned time where everyone can get it out of their system. It could look really cool and they can make safety goggles 'Mandatory'. Everyone writes their names and team # on their plane and the plane that reaches the farthest gets the member a prize. It would be a fun time killer. Definitely more fun then yet another speech talking about how inspired we all are and how great FIRST is.
I concur.
roboruler
08-05-2016, 18:22
Up in the VIP stand during Einstein and the closing ceremony, there were some 254 mentors putting their NASUH engineering skills to the test (not all 254 mentors are from NASA), the things they built were fine examples of what a paper aeroplane should be, they only threw one or two each and didn’t throw towards the field or during matches. Maybe NASA could pass on similar knowledge to all the students of FIRST?
254 build the best planes and the best robots :)
(This is not a mentor built stab)
Ringo5tarr
09-05-2016, 13:46
There are worse things plaguing FIRST out there to be frank.
wilsonmw04
09-05-2016, 13:50
There are worse things plaguing FIRST out there to be frank.
threadjacking imminent.
IronicDeadBird
09-05-2016, 13:59
There are worse things plaguing FIRST out there to be frank.
You expect to tackle bigger issues when we can't get people to be considerate of others?
http://sassyhacksaws.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/calvin-hobbes-peanut-butter.gif
chapman1
09-05-2016, 20:01
What I found distressing about this year's paper airplane madness is that most people above us seemed to make no attempt to actually create an object that flew well. Many of the objects that landed near - or on - us were crumpled pieces of paper that resembled what a kindergartner might create. Note: there were no kindergartners above us.
I can only assume that the appeal to such people was a) indulging in a sanctioned form of littering, b) in bothering those below them, or c) in creating a great mess that others will have to clean up. Not exactly what FIRST is all about, IMHO.
Some (5%?) of the paper planes that descended from above, however, had beautiful flight paths that gracefully wafted with the air conditioning currents all the way to the playing field. These were the creations of FIRST-caliber kids.
It might be beneficial to create a separate event in the Einstein sector while the Quali rounds are going on, for those kids who are so inclined... with the proviso that they all pitch in to pick up their collective litter each day, in a display of Gracious Professionalism rather than defacto sanctioned littering.
Perhaps a mini-championship for those who excel... and hence create an atmosphere that does not promote a littering problem but instead creates another intellectual and creative challenge...
synth3tk
10-05-2016, 08:58
It might be beneficial to create a separate event in the Einstein sector while the Quali rounds are going on, for those kids who are so inclined... with the proviso that they all pitch in to pick up their collective litter each day, in a display of Gracious Professionalism rather than defacto sanctioned littering.
That sounds great. But first you need to get the mentors on board, because I've seen some adults that unfortunately aren't very responsible when it comes to making sure their students act professionally and graciously and all that jazz. That's probably why we're here in the first place. Mentors should be telling students not to ball up paper and throw it or not to push an enitre roll of paper towels over the edge or not to launch a plane as hard as they can into the back of somebody's head.
Let's get some better adults to help out first.
TL;DR all the replies. A team should build a robot that picks up the paper airplanes...no, two teams should build the one robot each, one for each Championship next year.
Mr. Tatorscout
10-05-2016, 15:22
Pretty sure kids are intelligent enough to not have to throw garbage onto the field because they are bored. I mean REALLY? are you seriously suggesting that kids are physically incapable of not mass littering a the dome because of hormones!?!?!?
Just wow.
There was a young lady in front of me from Team 330 that had a bottle of water land on her head during champs this year. So, yes, it would appear that some idiots are incapable of not mass littering.
dubiousSwain
16-05-2016, 17:20
https://www.facebook.com/553244038084789/videos/vb.553244038084789/1054994251243096/?type=2&theater
Relevant. Its not just FIRST.
marshall
22-12-2016, 17:42
http://www.firstinspires.org/robotics/frc/blog/2017-not-robot-video-championship-housing-throwing-things
We’re making it official for the 2017 season. It will be against the rules to throw things from the stands or bleachers at our events. Paper airplanes count as things. As well as being a safety hazard, throwing paper airplanes can be disrespectful, depending on what is happening on the field. We probably should have put this rule in place years ago, but I hope we can now count on you to help keep our events safe and respectful.
For the love of all that is gracious and professional, please let this tradition end.
protoserge
22-12-2016, 19:40
It's about time.
:cool:
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