View Full Version : WILL.I.AM's comment on Einstein
I'm sure that we've all seen the oddshot/heard it live by now, but what is CD's response to will.i.am's comment?
From my previous visits to CMP, whenever Will came up, the general vibe that I got was that he used to be a big supporter but lost his interest and kept coming to CMP as a favor to Dean, but this year, he seemed as hyped as the rest of us, and I think that we got to see what will was really feeling at that moment, not necessarily what FIRST asked him to focus on/talk about.
Most of the sponsors, speakers and guests say similar things about promoting STEM and their companies from a pre-written speech and that's cool, but seeing will off-script and listening to how he was feeling in the heat of the moment really made me believe that FIRST has made a difference in culture, and yesterday, Will really showed it to us.
chamingflicken
01-05-2016, 19:30
what is CD's response to will.i.am's comment?
Literally legendary.
scott.smith
01-05-2016, 19:34
Best quote 2k16. Others may disagree, but I think it really shows his passion.
orangemoore
01-05-2016, 19:34
It was not an appropriate comment for the people in the audience.
But an amazing comment about FIRST and the culture we have created.
hectorcastillo
01-05-2016, 19:36
I'm waiting for the t-shirt/button.
sanddrag
01-05-2016, 19:41
Not having been there, can someone enlighten me? If it's not something you can post, I'd still love to hear it via PM.
Edit: Got it. Thank you everyone.
Anyone remember when a former US president was at Champs? Maybe we should get back to that type of VIP instead of these "music" clowns.
TheMilkman01
01-05-2016, 19:42
I think it definitely was a display of passion and will go down as an unforgettable moment in FIRST, but I'm also skeptical as to if it was truly off the cuff. The general reaction of Dean Kamen, the commentators, and others seemed artificial to some degree. While I doubt everyone or even most people would know about it if – and that's a skeptical "if" – it was planned at all. He seemed to say it in a way and draw reactions from Dean and the administrator that suggest he may have playfully joked about swearing live or something earlier, and that their reactions were a product of that. Like a publicity stunt for FIRST more or less.
Don't get me wrong, I think that Will is undoubtedly invested in FIRST and whether or not the incident was planned or not, he is doing great work for the future. I wish he would have explained and gone in depth more about spreading FIRST in the ghetto and his experiences like that, but I can appreciate the notion that he was just overcome with excitement for FIRST. Also, I'm not trying to start a conspiracy or anything – I don't expect other people to jump on board or completely agree with me on this – it's just how I genuinely feel and think about it.
Either way, this should make for some good discussion.
nerdrock101
01-05-2016, 19:51
I think it definitely was a display of passion and will go down as an unforgettable moment in FIRST, but I'm also skeptical as to if it was truly off the cuff. The general reaction of Dean Kamen, the commentators, and others seemed artificial to some degree. While I doubt everyone or even most people would know about it if – and that's a skeptical "if" – it was planned at all. He seemed to say it in a way and draw reactions from Dean and the administrator that suggest he may have playfully joked about swearing live or something earlier, and that their reactions were a product of that. Like a publicity stunt for FIRST more or less.
For that reason, I really wish I could read lips and guess what Dean said to him after in that clip...
saikiranra
01-05-2016, 19:57
Anyone remember when a former US president was at Champs? Maybe we should get back to that type of VIP instead of these "music" clowns.
One of the main goals of FIRST is inspiration. WILL.I.AM is an influential figure in the popular culture sphere who can help bring awareness to the program more than any other figures.
Although not a totally appropriate thing to say, it really does share the sentiment most of us have about the program. This could potentially attract people who haven't heard of FIRST into our community, which is always a good thing.
dirtbikerxz
01-05-2016, 19:58
I personally think it was an excellent way for a non stem related person to explain his passion. If he had given a speech like everyone else, the audience would have been oh yay, another person talking about how great everything is ho hum (lets not lie, most of use do get bored by all the speeches). But by someone outside (a well known person) saying something like this, truly shows how far first has come, and how motivating and amazing it is.
Plus, this will be a good recruiting tool for new members (of course it won't be used in official presentations), but You can bet that I'm going to go to friends tomorrow and say, "Hey, you know will.I.Am is right? Well look at what he said about first.
Yes yes, I know it was inappropriate language that the 4 year olds in the stands shouldn't have heard. But I'm not worrying too much about it. In this world, if someone really tells me that they haven't heard this language in any movie or out in the general street anywhere, I really won't believe them.
Travis Hoffman
01-05-2016, 19:58
Paging Andy Grady.
dirtbikerxz
01-05-2016, 20:02
Anyone remember when a former US president was at Champs? Maybe we should get back to that type of VIP instead of these "music" clowns.
First of all Will.I.AM is really not a "music clown" as you put it, he actually is a respected person unlike some other music personnel.
And also you have to understand, FIRST isn't really trying to promote itself to 30 and above year olds. It's trying to capture the attention of High Schoolers and below. A respected celebrity such as Will.I.AM will have much more impact than the president. (No offense Mr. President if you happen to have a secret account on Chief Delphi :D :D )
On a side note, I can only imagine how much more complicated everything would become if the president had to visit champs today, especially with all the security details required, and how all the open saws and hammers and shanks would be treated......
Akash Rastogi
01-05-2016, 20:04
Anyone remember when a former US president was at Champs? Maybe we should get back to that type of VIP instead of these "music" clowns.
This is a pretty arrogant statement.
The clown you speak of actually is enrolled in Comp Sci (or was it Comp Engineering) classes.
Also, I'm pretty sure his music hasn't killed innocent people, unlike the the actions of the particular president you're referring to.
A kid can't relate to Bush senior, but they can sure as hell relate to a guy who is passionate enough about what he's saying to go off script.
Hmmmmm, Ummmmm, short and concise. I've be addicted for 15 years. Tried to quit but failed.
dirtbikerxz
01-05-2016, 20:08
Also, I'm pretty sure his music hasn't killed innocent people, unlike the the actions of the particular president you're referring to.
Let's not fire any shots here :P
A kid can't relate to Bush senior, but they can sure as hell relate to a guy who is passionate enough about what he's saying to go off script.
Exactly, as a kid I can affirm this :)
JaneYoung
01-05-2016, 20:13
First of all Will.I.AM is really not a "music clown" as you put it, he actually is a respected person unlike some other music personnel.
And also you have to understand, FIRST isn't really trying to promote itself to 30 and above year olds. It's trying to capture the attention of High Schoolers and below. A respected celebrity such as Will.I.AM will have much more impact than the president. (No offense Mr. President if you happen to have a secret account on Chief Delphi :D :D )
You might take a look at the makeup (and age groups) of some of the teams that are a part of the FIRST programs. International teams that are making tremendous inroads in their cultures, at no small cost. Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, and private schools with religious affiliations, to name a few. FIRST is much bigger than the current U.S. popular culture trends. Way bigger. Just look at the impact of our 2016 Championship WFA.
Food for thought.
Jane
Legendary. As will.i.am said... "I'm just gonna say it the way I feel it"
He's saying what some of us are thinking. He's saying what many of our students are thinking.
I have a lot of complicated thoughts about "explicit language", what the appropriate or inappropriate use is, and how a coherent team policy can be crafted around them since the use of language is so heavily context-based and culturally-driven.
I've had mixed results when they slip out of my mouth. Sometimes, particularly when it shows emotion, it humanizes me to the people relying on me (students at 841, engineers and construction workers at work) & I earn respect. Other times, because it sounds like I'm not a Real White-Collar Engineer, I lose respect. Sometimes, both in the same audience. Double edged sword. Handle with care.
On 841, I'm working on building an explicitly framed "Code Switch" facet into the program, based on ideas from "For White Folks Who Teach in the Hood... and the Rest of Y'all Too" by Christopher Emdin, to emphasize awareness of use of language. My students are #$%^ing inspiring to me, but they don't always know how to use the right words to *sound* inspiring to people who only speak Engineering English.
dirtbikerxz
01-05-2016, 20:18
You might take a look at the makeup (and age groups) of some of the teams that are a part of the FIRST programs. International teams that are making tremendous inroads in their cultures at no small cost. Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, and private schools with religious affiliations, to name a few. FIRST is much bigger than the current U.S. popular culture trends. Way bigger. Just look at the impact of our 2016 Championship WFA.
Food for thought.
Jane
Very true, and I totally understand that, I think it's amazing. I can't wait for a future where every school in the world will have access to some sort of FIRST resource. But we also have to think about the present moment. It is facts that the United States is much more involved in FIRST than all the other Nation's combined. With a popular social figure like this you will be reaching many more people.
Now don't get me wrong, I would love it if the President took the time to come to the FIRST championship (on other thought did he make a video this year, I know he made videos the last 2 years saying good luck). There is no rule preventing both a figure like Will.I.AM and the president to come to the championships.
I know I've posted about this in another thread already, but I kind of have a lot to say on this subject in general and on this instance in particular. I'll try to be brief.
I use cuss words as teaching tools. I play NWA songs to start discussions about racism and other related issues. I started every day of Freshman Orientation by showing a different Epic Rap Battles of History episode, using their crudeness as a hook for learning about great artists, philosophers and scientists. And yes, when I think it has an appropriate educational purpose, I will cuss in my students' presence. I do this consciously, seeing as I rarely cuss at all for any other reason.
The culture has shifted, people. Fifteen years ago my teaching mentor (God bless him) told me never to allow chewing gum, and talked about his "virgin ears" not wanting to hear curse words, but he also told me to always shake boys' hands and squeeze them hard enough to cause pain, just so they they would know I'm the boss. Fortunately I haven't taken any of that advice to heart or action, and if any teachers still take that outdated approach then I'm shocked.
Every single one of my students, and a half dozen parents who attended champs with us, wants what Will.i.am said on a t-shirt. At dinner Thursday night (before he ever said what he said), around the "adult" table, one of our topics of discussion was this very issue, and every one of those parents said the f word without a blink, including a lay minister, a married couple who are practicing Presbyterians, and a Lutheran pastor whose name many people would recognize from her books and radio and television appearances.
The culture has shifted, people. You can act shocked and complain, and likely lose the attention of the students you want to reach through FRC and other activities, or you can shift with it, and make FRC relatable and relevant to a bunch of good kids with foul mouths.
The Swaggy P
01-05-2016, 20:53
I know I've posted about this in another thread already, but I kind of have a lot to say on this subject in general and on this instance in particular. I'll try to be brief.
I use cuss words as teaching tools. I play NWA songs to start discussions about racism and other related issues. I started every day of Freshman Orientation by showing a different Epic Rap Battles of History episode, using their crudeness as a hook for learning about great artists, philosophers and scientists. And yes, when I think it has an appropriate educational purpose, I will cuss in my students' presence. I do this consciously, seeing as I rarely cuss at all for any other reason.
The culture has shifted, people. Fifteen years ago my teaching mentor (God bless him) told me never to allow chewing gum, and talked about his "virgin ears" not wanting to hear curse words, but he also told me to always shake boys' hands and squeeze them hard enough to cause pain, just so they they would know I'm the boss. Fortunately I haven't taken any of that advice to heart or action, and if any teachers still take that outdated approach then I'm shocked.
Every single one of my students, and a half dozen parents who attended champs with us, wants what Will.i.am said on a t-shirt. At dinner Thursday night (before he ever said what he said), around the "adult" table, one of our topics of discussion was this very issue, and every one of those parents said the f word without a blink, including a lay minister, a married couple who are practicing Presbyterians, and a Lutheran pastor whose name many people would recognize from her books and radio and television appearances.
The culture has shifted, people. You can act shocked and complain, and likely lose the attention of the students you want to reach through FRC and other activities, or you can shift with it, and make FRC relatable and relevant to a bunch of good kids with foul mouths.
Finally, someone came out and said EXACTLY what I've been thinking about for the past 2 years.
Kudos to you man.
Theseusgoats
01-05-2016, 21:09
I'm sorry, but I didn't even see what he said. What did he even say?
Richard Wallace
01-05-2016, 21:12
I'm sorry, but I didn't even see what he said. What did he even say?Look at the link below.Watch it here:
The other Gabe
01-05-2016, 21:13
I feel like the reaction to swear words by adult figures and authorities is often misplaced. we shouldn't fear children learning these words - I knew words like $@#$@#$@#$@# (it blurts it out if I try to type it on this :v) and hell when I was, like, 11 or so, and have experienced no ill effects from knowing them. They aren't "evil" and they aren't going to corrupt anyone. it's more a matter of teaching us that they are rude and inappropriate to use in professional settings, instead of pretending that they have some sort of... I don't know... corrupting effect on our youth or something.
I'm not sure if that ended up making much sense. at any rate, I really appreciated WILL.I.AM's comment - even if it was a somewhat rehearsed idea (and he was definitely thinking about doing it for about half of that speech :P ), it was an expression of pure emotion, and:
I use cuss words as teaching tools.... And yes, when I think it has an appropriate educational purpose, I will cuss in my students' presence. I do this consciously, seeing as I rarely cuss at all for any other reason.
it helped him to connect with the students, doing stuff that the "authorities" might have issues with, or whatever it is that makes teenagers like about rebels :v .
yeah, so my point is that people over-value swear words, I think. I don't think they should be a normal part of the language, but to fear them is folly
Every single one of my students, and a half dozen parents who attended champs with us, wants what Will.i.am said on a t-shirt.
I too want what he said on a t-shirt :P
Ryan Dognaux
01-05-2016, 21:17
The culture has shifted, people. You can act shocked and complain, and likely lose the attention of the students you want to reach through FRC and other activities, or you can shift with it, and make FRC relatable and relevant to a bunch of good kids with foul mouths.
So much this, you nailed it.
Anyone dwelling on the words are missing the message. Get over it and be pumped that Will.I.Am took time out of his schedule to come hang out with a bunch of robotics students and actually cares about this program.
[QUOTE=The other Gabe;1581313]I too want what he said on a t-shirt :P
is making one up and selling them. Message him for more info.
Jonny_Jee
01-05-2016, 21:34
Anyone dwelling on the words are missing the message. Get over it and be pumped that Will.I.Am took time out of his schedule to come hang out with a bunch of robotics students and actually cares about this program.
^ couldn't have said it better myself
The culture has shifted, people. You can act shocked and complain, and likely lose the attention of the students you want to reach through FRC and other activities, or you can shift with it, and make FRC relatable and relevant to a bunch of good kids with foul mouths.
This.
The people that FRC is meant to be for are a bunch of high school students across the world. We can all pretend like they don't know foul language and all manner of things, but I bet if you really thought back to when you were in high school, you were doing similarly terrible things and saying things when your parents weren't listening!
At one of the regionals I attended this year, there were a bunch of unwashed windows near the entrance to the arena. I walked past these windows to the volunteer entrance and noticed that the kids had applied many illustrations of $@#$@#$@#$@#$@# to the windows, while this is generally frowned upon, it's still relatively harmless and pretty funny. :)
Anyone remember when a former US president was at Champs? Maybe we should get back to that type of VIP instead of these "music" clowns.
I could not agree more. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that long speeches given by former presidents are more relatable to teenagers than these "music" clowns.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NelBNtNm8l0
As a student, when we have Dean or another important figure come out and give long-winded speeches about how STEM is great, that's cool and all, but it's not something I'll remember. In fact, after hearing the same spiel year after year, it just puts me to sleep, and listening to opening/closing ceremonies gets pretty insufferable.
But this quote, concise and memorable, will be the single "speech" that I will remember after I graduate.
dirtbikerxz
01-05-2016, 22:31
As a student, when we have Dean or another important figure come out and give long-winded speeches about how STEM is great, that's cool and all, but it's not something I'll remember. In fact, after hearing the same spiel year after year, it just puts me to sleep, and listening to opening/closing ceremonies gets pretty insufferable.
But this quote, concise and memorable, will be the single "speech" that I will remember after I graduate.
Exactly, as a fellow student, I completely agree. This isn't us being arrogant, it simply isn't within the interests of the common teenage mind. I personally will remember something out of the ordinary and super interesting (like 330 flipping themselves... twice, 118's grappling hook, and Will.I.Am's comment) much more than I will remember exactly what Dean said at the closing ceremonies in 2015 (I actually don't remember much....).
Chris is me
01-05-2016, 22:51
Let's be honest here. Almost everyone cusses sometimes. The kids certainly do, many adults do in the heat of FRC competitions. Even the FLL kids do. While it isn't very professional, and probably isn't something to show off to prospective sponsors and whatnot, letting out one F-bomb on Einstein is not the end of the world, and in the full context, I don't even think it was that inappropriate.
To truly understand why the quote was so powerful and, frankly, inspiring, you have to get the context, not just of Einstein but of Will I Am and FRC. Einstein is an incredibly scripted, drawn out event with lots of ceremony, speeches, and traditions. It is powerful, but gets old, and it's a lot of going through the motions. Will.i.am's involvement in FRC was initially regarded with a large amount of hostility and backlash. He began by saying the 2011 game was "dope", which older mentors interpreted as a drug reference, and controversial changes to the Championship format aligned with his attempt at helping via a star-studded concert at the event, leading people to believe he was responsible for these unwelcome changes (fields in the pits etc). But over time, his commitment to FIRST and his consistency have been slowly winning people over, that he's not just doing this for publicity or selfish reasons, but because he is genuinely inspired.
And finally, after his sixth consecutive year of supporting the FIRST championship, he goes off script to express his amazement and inspiration of the robotics program going on around him. He says it in a way that is exactly how one passionate high schooler might explain their amazement to a friend of theirs, in a real and true way that you can be absolutely sure was not approved or encouraged by anyone at FIRST. And the power of his statement, if not just a shock reaction, was reflected in the thunderous reaction in the Dome, louder than almost anything heard the entire day. Crass, unprofessional, and crude as it was, it was an incredibly powerful moment.
Now, this isn't to say this should be a regular thing; it probably shouldn't be our forward facing catch phrase, we shouldn't be singing it to sponsors, making team chants about it, etc. It can't become a huge meme like water games or corndogs that every 14 year old parrots to their grandmother (and I'm sure it will get out of hand, unfortunately). I really understand the points people like Andy Grady have been making about the speech and I don't disagree with them. But I genuinely appreciated such a refreshingly honest moment from this man, and I'm glad he was able to convey his awe and inspiration sincerely.
macman828
01-05-2016, 22:53
For that reason, I really wish I could read lips and guess what Dean said to him after in that clip...
He says, "This is Representative Randy Hultgren. His is the chairman of the STEM committee."
dirtbikerxz
01-05-2016, 22:56
It can't become a huge meme like water games or corndogs
I'm afraid it's a bit too late for that :\ :D
But I genuinely appreciated such a refreshingly honest moment from this man, and I'm glad he was able to convey his awe and inspiration sincerely.
And yes.... 100 percent yes... nothing else to say
AcesJames
01-05-2016, 23:27
To truly understand why the quote was so powerful and, frankly, inspiring, you have to get the context, not just of Einstein but of Will I Am and FRC.
This is particularly important.
Just minutes before Will took the mic to deliver the line in question, he was speaking candidly about his own motivations for supporting FIRST; it was something he never had growing up in the "ghetto". His words, not mine. And let's also not forget the other point he brought up; the juxtaposition he so eloquently stated. The FRC World Championship is held just blocks away from neighborhoods being boarded up and abandoned. He spoke of the empty buildings surrounding the dome breaking his heart.
Those who were at the championship or watching it live from home saw first hand the very raw emotional connection that Will now has to this program. He recognizes intrinsically that FIRST is a program that is creating educational and career opportunities in areas like St. Louis where students otherwise have none. Will "gets" the point of this program the way so many others do not. I'd venture to argue his motivation as a spokesperson is closer to the core purpose of this program than are the motivations of some program participants. I will never alienate a person from this organization, who has done so much for this organization, simply because they are so inspired by it that they can only describe it in expletives.
evanperryg
02-05-2016, 00:04
*snip*
Wow. You nailed it. There's a greater meaning behind cuss words, and this meaning is what gives them an impact that can't be written off purely as repugnant vulgarity. These words humanize us. They represent the intimacy between the cusser and those around them, as weird as that sounds. Most importantly, will.I.am's words humanize FIRST, and they humanize FRC. We all love the façade of being this perfect community of gracious professionalism and whatnot, but we're all people. We all make mistakes (not that what he said was a mistake, actually quite the contrary), we all have emotions and we all let those emotions affect our actions. We're FIRSTers, but we are also people. We're all people who've cussed once in a while (some more than others) and it's part of what makes us human.
Will.I.am showed that he is enthusiastic about FIRST on a deeply personal level, so much so that he was comfortable speaking in front of 40,000 people in a manner that one would only speak around those closest to them. My perception of his relationship with FIRST before his speech was that it was largely for marketing, a mutually beneficial agreement between will.I.am and FIRST for PR's sake. However, I now see him as a dedicated member of the FIRST community, one who's deep-seeded love for FIRST matches the love for FIRST within me.
The language is inconsequential to me. As an engineer I've heard people up and down the chain of command swear, and my own language is less than perfect. If will.I.am was speaking from the heart (and I think he was) then he should be able to say whatever the @#$% he wants. FIRST would be making a grave mistake if they were dumb enough to actually punish him in some way, like not have him participate next year.
I've heard some folks comment about GP and how this reflects on that. GP simply says we should treat each other with respect and kindness even as we compete. It's about building each other up instead of breaking each other down. It does not say how that respect and kindness should be displayed.
The most important part? will.i.am is right!
connor.worley
02-05-2016, 07:07
I've heard some folks comment about GP and how this reflects on that. GP simply says we should treat each other with respect and kindness even as we compete. It's about building each other up instead of breaking each other down. It does not say how that respect and kindness should be displayed.
This is extremely important.
MooreteP
02-05-2016, 07:22
But this quote, concise and memorable, will be the single "speech" that I will remember after I graduate.
Exactly, as a fellow student, I completely agree.
Crass, unprofessional, and crude as it was, it was an incredibly powerful moment.
And yes.... 100 percent yes... nothing else to say
We're all people who've cussed once in a while (some more than others) and it's part of what makes us human.
However, I now see him as a dedicated member of the FIRST community, one who's deep-seeded love for FIRST matches the love for FIRST within me.
The most important part? will.i.am is right!
Thank you CD. I was going to post, but these latest comments did the work for me.
I wasn't there, but saw the video that someone posted here.
My opinion, no harm done, this is real life, and Will wasn't putting anyone down but merely showing how excited he is for the program.
I assume the room is full of mostly adults and high school students, and unless they've been living under a rock, have heard this type of language before in the world and in pop culture.
If nothing else, it's getting FIRST more exposure in a positive way.
Akash Rastogi
02-05-2016, 09:11
You might take a look at the makeup (and age groups) of some of the teams that are a part of the FIRST programs. International teams that are making tremendous inroads in their cultures, at no small cost. Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, and private schools with religious affiliations, to name a few. FIRST is much bigger than the current U.S. popular culture trends. Way bigger. Just look at the impact of our 2016 Championship WFA.
Food for thought.
Jane
Can you elaborate on your point here? I'm not getting what you're implying or what thought this should provoke.
What was your actual opinion on the statement?
JaneYoung
02-05-2016, 09:47
Can you elaborate on your point here? I'm not getting what you're implying or what thought this should provoke.
What was your actual opinion on the statement?
Sure, I will be happy to, Akash.
I'm going to have a cup of coffee (or two) and put some words together in my head. I'll be back later on and will edit this post to add them.
Thank you,
Jane
Edit: I will keep this brief but, I will be happy to add more, if requested.
will.i.am was on a global stage with a microphone. Not just any global stage, a FIRST Championship global stage. That stage reaches through to young people of all ages, sponsors, world leadership, and cultures. Many many cultures. As is FIRST's nature, it continues to reach out to more cultures, communities, nations, sponsors, and leaders. It is moving toward being world centric.
will.i.am's outburst was sincere and passionate. My thinking centers around how his choice of words will impact students/teams/communities - based on cultural differences, globally. If it is just a simple outburst with no impact, that is one thing. If it becomes a hashtag and a tee shirt statement, that shows further reach.
--
This has nothing to do with my initial comment but, I find it very funny that the tee shirts will be sponsored by a pot shop. Just a few years ago, there was passionate discussion on these boards about soliciting sponsorship from beer companies. Wonder if we will have pot discussions.
Jane
Richard Wallace
02-05-2016, 09:59
Can you elaborate on your point here? I'm not getting what you're implying or what thought this should provoke.
What was your actual opinion on the statement?
Sure, I will be happy to, Akash.
I'm going to have a cup of coffee (or two) and put some words together in my head. I'll be back later on and will edit this post to add them.
Thank you,
JaneGetting my own coffee now, and eagerly awaiting Jane's response. Thank you, Akash, for bumping this dialog.
In the word's of Scott Mescudi:
"I gotta terminate the hate spread the positive
Without it being wack and cheesy to the little kids"
Living in Boston, I draw analogies between Will's comments and the comments of David Ortiz after the marathon bombings. Now these are very different situations, but at the end of the day, it's about expressing how passionate you are.
Continuing with the analogy though, I think it is important that people reflect on what he was conveying, rather than the words that were used. When you focus on the words (and especially if you edit them) I feel the message is often lost.
In my opinion, Will was right, FIRST is dope, and I wish more people knew about it.
Mr. Jeff
02-05-2016, 10:43
I’ve been a mentor for 12 consecutive years and remained silent on Delphi, that stops today. Not many things make me angry, this did.
If William, Kamen, Flowers or FIRST won’t say it, I will.
It was WRONG and inappropriate.
Understanding the majority in attendance were kids raised on idealizing celebrities the shock factor was rewarded with a roar of applause. The crowds response in addition to all the positive supportive post greatly sadden me about we have become. If I have to explain why then our world is in worse shape than I thought. Was it a mistake that he wish he could take back? Maybe, if so he should say so. William boast about being from the hood, many are that are good decent role models. After Saturday I don’t recognize his accomplishment. Go ahead vulgarity supporters and rip me up if you'd like, I can take.
FIRST is supposed to change the culture, It appears the culture is changing FIRST.
Mr. Jeff Sparky 384
My comments do not reflect the opinion of my team.
I’ve been a mentor for 12 consecutive years and remained silent on Delphi, that stops today. Not many things make me angry, this did.
If William, Kamen, Flowers or FIRST won’t say it, I will.
It was WRONG and inappropriate.
Understanding the majority in attendance were kids raised on idealizing celebrities the shock factor was rewarded with a roar of applause. The crowds response in addition to all the positive supportive post greatly sadden me about we have become. If I have to explain why then our world is in worse shape than I thought. Was it a mistake that he wish he could take back? Maybe, if so he should say so. William boast about being from the hood, many are that are good decent role models. After Saturday I don’t recognize his accomplishment. Go ahead vulgarity supporters and rip me up if you'd like, I can take.
FIRST is supposed to change the culture, It appears the culture is changing FIRST.
Mr. Jeff Sparky 384
My comments do not reflect the opinion of my team.
K. Why were you silent on CD for 12 years?
Not many things make me angry, this did.
It was WRONG and inappropriate.
If I have to explain why then our world is in worse shape than I thought.
Go ahead vulgarity supporters and rip me up if you'd like, I can take.
I'm curious why this made you so angry? Are you under the impression the kids don't use the same words when adults aren't around? Did you not do the same at their age?
You're right. It was inappropriate. There isn't really any debate to that.
But, if THIS is what makes you think the world is in terrible shape, I'd implore you to look at bigger problems than this. If the worst thing that happened to any of these kids this weekend was hearing a celeb cuss, it's a pretty successful weekend. Keep in mind most years come with stories of team vans being broken into with things stolen. Last year, there was a murder just down the street from the event. With all of THESE things going on, why would a single remark be what upsets you this much?
Jared Russell
02-05-2016, 11:17
After Saturday I don’t recognize his accomplishment.
You really don't recognize his accomplishments because he used profanity in a moment of candor?
You must have a very short list of heroes.
nathanwalters
02-05-2016, 11:18
FIRST is supposed to change the culture, It appears the culture is changing FIRST.
If, as others have suggested, you focus on will.i.am's message and not his choice of words, I would say you are dead wrong. A prominent figure from pop culture took time off from his busy schedule to come to a robotics championship and show an incredibly passionate and unscripted display of support for FIRST and what FIRST is doing in the world. If that's not a change in culture, I don't know what is.
synth3tk
02-05-2016, 11:20
After Saturday I don’t recognize his accomplishment.
You're welcome to your opinion on his choice of words, but in this regard, you're being straight up childish and completely irrational.
Discuss.
Quoted from the FIRST Mentoring Guide (http://www.firstinspires.org/sites/default/files/uploads/resource_library/frc/game-and-season-info/2015-frc-mentoring-guide.pdf). (If you've never read it, do so.)
"It is important for every adult to remember that there are responsibilities that come with the adult/student relationship. Young people look up to people they trust and respect and will look to mentors as their role models, and they will closely watch the adults’ actions and see their behavior as appropriate.
An adult may think that he or she is showing camaraderie and will fit in with a group of students by using the same offensive language the students use among their peers, and the reaction of the students may make the adult feel like he or she is part of the group. But what the adult is really “saying” is that inappropriate language is ok."
The FIRST organization's choice of spokespersons reflects on the organization. We tell our students that when they are at events, wearing our team's T-shirts, they are representatives of our team, and their behavior and language should reflect the team's values.
Was I surprised that Will said what he did? No. I've listened to his music. (And quite like some of it.) Anyone who had also done so shouldn't have been surprised. Musicians and performers use language like that in their music and on stage all the time. I consider it to be pandering to the audience in an attempt to elicit a specific type of emotional response. As media savvy as Will is, I believe it was a preplanned comment, at least on his part. I certainly saw it coming as soon as he started his previous sentence.
I was more interested to observe the reactions of the FIRST officials around him. I found those reactions disappointing. I certainly now believe that the passage quoted in the mentor handbook to be hypocritical at best.
I’ve been a mentor for 12 consecutive years and remained silent on Delphi, that stops today. Not many things make me angry, this did.
If William, Kamen, Flowers or FIRST won’t say it, I will.
It was WRONG and inappropriate.
Understanding the majority in attendance were kids raised on idealizing celebrities the shock factor was rewarded with a roar of applause. The crowds response in addition to all the positive supportive post greatly sadden me about we have become. If I have to explain why then our world is in worse shape than I thought. Was it a mistake that he wish he could take back? Maybe, if so he should say so. William boast about being from the hood, many are that are good decent role models. After Saturday I don’t recognize his accomplishment. Go ahead vulgarity supporters and rip me up if you'd like, I can take.
FIRST is supposed to change the culture, It appears the culture is changing FIRST.
Mr. Jeff Sparky 384
My comments do not reflect the opinion of my team.
Jeff,
FIRST has to do both. We change the culture through our robotics competition, but we must also be apart of that culture. To think that we are going to mold high school students into being something different than what they are is a tough sell. Students use vulgar language. That is a fact. To think that any of the students that were in attendance (yes even FLL kids) have never heard that kind of language is foolish. Furthermore, to think that those students had never heard that language from an influential figure (family member, mentor, rapper, you name it) is just the same. These words can be used to great effect. They relay a passion that no other words could. So many times we hear speeches from figureheads of large corporations or prominent figures that can't come close to the passion that Will.I.Am showed in that phrase. There is a time and place for vulgar language. It shouldn't be used in every sentence. But, when used as a tool to portray that level of emotion without the need to hear it live, nothing comes close.
Yes it was unprofessional, but who are we kidding, we work with high school students. If we act like we are in an official meeting every time we are with them, you will only see a small glimpse into what kind of people they will become.
I have a challenge for you. Come up with a phrase akin to what he did. Make it concise and passionate. But, it must only be in text form. I believe that you will have a difficult time doing that. To have something so short echo all of our sentiments of this program is a very impressive thing.
marshall
02-05-2016, 11:28
I certainly now believe that the passage quoted in the mentor handbook to be hypocritical at best.
Yep. I do enjoy that mentor handbook though. It's been a great resource for me and our team. It does need revision and should include more than it does now.
I understand why Jeff has remained silent for 12 years.
TheOtherGuy
02-05-2016, 11:34
I was more interested to observe the reactions of the FIRST officials around him. I found those reactions disappointing. I certainly now believe that the passage quoted in the mentor handbook to be hypocritical at best.
What would you have done?
Chris Hibner
02-05-2016, 11:53
I thought I would be in a big minority on this one, but I'm pleasantly surprised by the reaction here. I was going to type a long response, but MrNoble nailed it for me. I'm not naive enough to think that students don't talk like that when adults aren't around. I have a good enough memory to remember when I was that age.
I've long thought that Americans are very uptight about a lot of things that don't even raise eyebrows in a lot of other parts of the world. I figured that Will's comment would create a firestorm of hate. I'm glad it's being taken (for the most part) as someone showing their passion.
What is interesting to me, is that when Will was giving his speech leading up to the famous quote, I was thinking to myself "Will is starting to sound a lot like the other people that speak. I'm starting to think that he may be losing some street cred and the students will view him as a typical adult telling them why what they're doing is important and tune out." Then in one fell swoop that got washed away.
dirtbikerxz
02-05-2016, 12:10
All right guys, I know I'm only a teen, and I might not have the "respect" to say this, but there is no need to rip apart Mr. Jeff like that. I too agree that Will.I.Am's message was sincere, and his use of those words were appropriate for that situation... but there is no reason to be so brutal to Mr. Jeff.
TehSwegGey
02-05-2016, 12:18
Found this on TeeSpring today: [LINK APPEARS TO BE DOWN NOW]
I was thinking about doing this as a way to open the shirt idea to more people than one person could handle in an order (since the company does all the heavy lifting here), but I guess someone already beat me to it... lol.
EDIT: Since the shirt appears to be taken down, maybe due to Branding (idk), I made my own version, which is a little cleaner but still gets the point across
Akash Rastogi
02-05-2016, 12:23
I keep seeing people say it was unprofessional, but I work in finance I haven't gone a day at work without hearing my co-workers and superiors curse out of frustration or when they're excited.
What about what Will said was unprofessional? How do you define professionalism?
Chief Hedgehog
02-05-2016, 12:29
As an artist, Will.I.Am uses language as his medium to express emotions. So when he said that - I laughed, shook my head and just smiled. He nailed it.
No I do not condone the language used, but I understand the intensity of the emotions at that moment.
MaGiC_PiKaChU
02-05-2016, 12:36
If you feel like mere words like this are offending, then I feel sorry for you
Philip Arola
02-05-2016, 12:37
I'm mixed about the whole thing. While I think it was something that it was a very entertaining comment, and I am not personally averse to foul language, it sends a huge mixed message. Part of gracious professionalism (at least in the PNW) involves polite language. We've had some issues with students getting a bit too excited and using a foul word occasionally too loud, and had people directly tell mentors about it. This has come from judges too, apparently.
Overall, I don't think it will be too much to worry about. I don't think this one remark will have a dramatic impact, and I don't think it will be a sustained effort on Will's part.
All right guys, I know I'm only a teen, and I might not have the "respect" to say this, but there is no need to rip apart Mr. Jeff like that. I too agree that Will.I.Am's message was sincere, and his use of those words were appropriate for that situation... but there is no reason to be so brutal to Mr. Jeff.
Yes, you certainly are respected.
I don't see where anyone has "ripped Jeff apart" here but simply offer up other ideas or opinions, I see no brutality here.
This appears to be a discussion, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. And of course someone's opinion may prompt another opinion.
I don't agree with Mr. Jeff, but understand where he's coming from, and that he didn't like Will's language.
I was there and I found the profanity unfortunate but had conflicting emotions about it. The reason I find it unfortunate is it distracts from what we should celebrating, the whole sentiment of what will.i.am said: being in FIRST is awesome.
Please recognize there were people in the audience from many, many cultures. Some of them do find the language offensive. Of course, there were others that find the expression truly speaks to them. Not talking about the people who enjoyed the shock value of it but those who identify with the culture. That's why I am conflicted about it.
I'm certainly not naive enough to believe that teens do not often use profanity in private. It sometimes crops up in our workshop in the heat of the moment although we discourage it. But there were also many age groups of a large variety of backgrounds in the audience, some of which would find profanity disrepectful.
Like others have said, it felt premeditated and a bit like pandering to me. I can't see into will.i.am's head so I couldn't tell you if my feeling is correct. I guess it's the GP part that bothers me. It's wrong if it was premeditated and done simply for shock value. If it was done in the heat of the moment, I can forgive that and still find it unfortunate for those who felt disrespected. If it was done to connect to students who find it part of their culture, that's where it gets complicated.
If given a choice between an advocate that uses colorful language and an advocate that suggests we strap bombs to our robots and send them to Iraq (or whatever similar nonsense came out of Yeager's mouth in 2003), I'll take will.i.am every time.
Different strokes for different folks and all that.
What other memorable quotes or moments have emerged from past years' closing ceremonies? This will be forgotten in the annals of the past or it may become the first meaningfully impactful comment in ages.
FIRST is supposed to change the culture, It appears the culture is changing FIRST.
FIRST is changing culture. Imagining that the same wouldn't happen in reverse is ludicrous. Language changes between generations, and that includes what is and isn't offensive. The seven dirty words you couldn't say back in 1972 when George Carlin talked about them are now all spoken on TV. Other words have become more offensive (notably sexually charged slurs). Language is a function of the times, especially when language is used by a professional artist like will.i.am whose job revolves around communicating with his voice.
People swear. Artists swear. FIRST chose to involve will.i.am because he's a passionate speaker and a culturally relevant icon who can connect with the students in a way that Dean Kamen never could. He's a black man, a gifted artist, who came from poverty and is now one of the most recognizable musicians in the world. And he is saying, in a way that no other role model in FIRST could, that he is inspired by what he's seeing. If that's not cultural transformation then I don't know what is.
marshall
02-05-2016, 13:28
The seven dirty words you couldn't say back in 1972 when George Carlin talked about them are now all spoken on TV.
As much credit as Carlin gets it was really WBAI that put that to the test and those same words are still not allowed on broadcast airwaves. Cable has absolutely no restrictions and online media is very loosely governed.
Not that your point isn't valid and that language evolves over time though but the FCC are sticklers for rules. Ham operators can lose their license for saying those words too.
MooreteP
02-05-2016, 14:01
Language is organic. It is always evolving.
It's not like these euphemisms for excretory functions or intercourse are referring to those specific acts.
"Curse" words like these are exclamation points. Often used to give weight to ideas that lack substance.
Will.i.am didn't take the Lord's name in vain. That would have given me pause.
Otherwise, I can't think of five other words that explain why I "waste" so much of my time on FIRST.
Found this on TeeSpring today:
I think this is going too far.
I heard the remark, and I laughed so loud and so hard it probably could be called a cheer. I was sitting next to two 17 year-olds, and they were more subdued than I was, probably because they weren't sure how I would react. In that moment, from that source and in that context, I thought it made a real statement that people could relate to. But all of the great points that have already been brought up, about the context and the passion, are absent on a t-shirt. It's just a shirt with vulgarity, and I can't believe that FIRST wants their name or their logo associated with it in that context (or lack of).
Funny that nobody has directly quoted it here. There's a reason for that. We could probably walk to Mars if we lined up all of the red dots that have accumulated on CD for using those words.
We're not just trying to bring in teenagers or adults who want to be cool like teenagers, we're trying to bring in sponsors and mentors as well. Would we wear that shirt to a sponsor presentation to ask for mentors or financial support? When we picked up our team t-shirts this year, oddly enough, one of the employees approached us about coming to support us and mentoring in the graphic arts group next year. I doubt that would have been the reaction if we were having these shirts printed.
Now get off my lawn!
Akash Rastogi
02-05-2016, 14:34
I think this is going too far.
I heard the remark, and I laughed so loud and so hard it probably could be called a cheer. I was sitting next to two 17 year-olds, and they were more subdued than I was, probably because they weren't sure how I would react. In that moment, from that source and in that context, I thought it made a real statement that people could relate to. But all of the great points that have already been brought up, about the context and the passion, are absent on a t-shirt. It's just a shirt with vulgarity, and I can't believe that FIRST wants their name or their logo associated with it in that context (or lack of).
Funny that nobody has directly quoted it here. There's a reason for that. We could probably walk to Mars if we lined up all of the red dots that have accumulated on CD for using those words.
We're not just trying to bring in teenagers or adults who want to be cool like teenagers, we're trying to bring in sponsors and mentors as well. Would we wear that shirt to a sponsor presentation to ask for mentors or financial support? When we picked up our team t-shirts this year, oddly enough, one of the employees approached us about coming to support us and mentoring in the graphic arts group next year. I doubt that would have been the reaction if we were having these shirts printed.
Now get off my lawn!
Nah, CD just *bleeps* them out.
For example:
"This $@#$@#$@#$@# is motha$@#$@#$@#$@#in' dope"
protoserge
02-05-2016, 14:35
That shirt likely does not adhere to the FIRST branding guidelines (http://www.firstinspires.org/brand).
NormaLamotte
02-05-2016, 14:42
Correct. FIRST will not put that quote on its splash page and neither will your team. You won't use it at your company sponsor events, and you won't use it when talking to your school board. You won't get more families to join your team by using it and you won't garner the respect of reasonable adults who understand what the term gracious means. You aren't going to hand out any buttons with that phrase and you won't impress any judges.
Read and understand the Youth Protection Mission and accept that you are working with MINORS. If you're a mentor, you get to be the adult. I'm tired of reading these posts that make some of us look like giggling teenagers who just got away with being naughty. I agree with the minority here that W was out of line and that FIRST needs to respond to provide closure to this. Now, assume your roles, grow through this somehow, and get back to the real mission of helping kids.
I keep seeing people say it was unprofessional, but I work in finance I haven't gone a day at work without hearing my co-workers and superiors curse out of frustration or when they're excited.
What about what Will said was unprofessional? How do you define professionalism?
It's all contextual. I work in academic research. Among coworkers at 'my level' that sort of remark wouldn't be out of place. In front of a P.I. it might well get you a raised eyebrow.
If you said it in a presentation, roughly what Will.I.Am did, it'd depend a lot on the setting and why you said it. I've heard and seen plenty of 'inappropriate' comments and slides in very formal settings that got chuckles and things moved along. I've also seen the same cause a lot of awkwardness.
Context always matters. I guess the line is; is it inappropriate because of a naughty word, or because it comes at the expense of a person or group?
Add me to the 'It was an acceptable amount of inappropriateness given the speaker and context.' camp.
Monochron
02-05-2016, 14:49
In terms of inspiring young high school students to respect and have enthusiasm for STEM, seeing a pop music artist express his own enthusiasm using vocabulary they are familiar with is a very powerful experience.
frank-g-e
02-05-2016, 14:51
Each of us need to use our own language to express the full depth of feeling in what we say. will.i.am found his way to let us see how deeply he feels about FIRST.
When I say "The experience of attending a FIRST Championship was ultimately and sincerely fulfilling and full of wonder and excitement.", people who know me understand how carefully I choose words and that this expresses the same observation that will.i.am was making, as if I were translating his words to my language.
Neither criticize nor emulate his words. Merely be a professional and graciously find your own.
Abhishek R
02-05-2016, 14:53
Approximately 35.314159% of this thread is typical ChiefDelphi overreaction.
Carolyn_Grace
02-05-2016, 15:06
Language is cultural.
will.i.am was sharing his culture.
For some of us, his culture is one we share only with close friends. For others, it blends with our work environment (as a teacher at an alternative high school, this is actually the case for me.)
For many people, his culture is completely foreign. It doesn't make these people outdated. It doesn't make them sticks-in-the-mud. It just means they don't appreciate it. That's okay too.
If what he said is something that will impact your team in a positive way, then use it.
If what he said is something that would put a negative light on your team, then don't use it.
It's the age-old debate of trying to prove that your way of [building a robot, organizing a team, drive coaching, finding finances, etc.] is better than others'. It's not.
MooreteP
02-05-2016, 15:10
Approximately 35.314159% of this thread is typical ChiefDelphi overreaction.
Mother$@#$@#$@#$@#ing SigFigs!
A better tshirt design, hypothetically, would just be a plain black tee with a simple "#TSIMFD" on the front and "#lastchamps" on the back. All hypothetically though.
Ryan Dognaux
02-05-2016, 15:24
I agree with the minority here that W was out of line and that FIRST needs to respond to provide closure to this. Now, assume your roles, grow through this somehow, and get back to the real mission of helping kids.
Yep, FIRST should just ban Will.I.Am from all events going forward because he said a few bad words. That'll teach all of the kids not to use potty words :rolleyes:
Also - please get off your high horse. It's insulting to think that people who are a little rough around the edges in FIRST don't want to help kids.
Every mentor has their own style and every team is different. I relate to my students on a personal level because I was one of them only 10 years ago. Sometimes that means saying things that aren't 100% politically correct. They know as crass as I can be sometimes that I'm doing it because I care about them and care about my team.
dirtbikerxz
02-05-2016, 15:41
Also - please get off your high horse. It's insulting to think that people who are a little rough around the edges in FIRST don't want to help kids.
Every mentor has their own style and every team is different. I relate to my students on a personal level because I was one of them only 10 years ago. Sometimes that means saying things that aren't 100% politically correct. They know as crass as I can be sometimes that I'm doing it because I care about them and care about my team.
Exactly. As a student, I would be more motivated to spend time and working as a team, if everyone, including the mentor was close together on a personal level. If a mentor required that everyone was absolutely strict, and required that everything be done 100 percent correctly, people (especially teenagers) simply won't feel that they are part of a "family" and wont dedicate as much time into it.
And also, even I (a teenager) think that the teespring shirt is a bit too much. At least "bleet" the words out, so its not so rash. Remember, the people who buy this shirt will be wearing it around people who will have no idea the context or the purpose of the words.
Mentors and students have all kinds of relationships that work well. I've already told you all about my general approach as a teacher and mentor. Maybe I wouldn't fit in on your team, or maybe I'd get fired as a teacher at your school; if not for playing music with naughty words, perhaps it would be for wearing t-shirts and blue jeans to work. I don't know. I'm kind of really glad I work were I do, at a diverse city school that has a very particular meaning in mind when they use the term "professional". I'm glad I don't work somewhere else, or coach some other team. And I will say that it does work for many teams and many students to be coached by someone who isn't their buddy, who keeps things strict and tight. It just wouldn't work for me. So don't rag too hard on folks who have a different style.
Akash Rastogi
02-05-2016, 15:56
Yep, FIRST should just ban Will.I.Am from all events going forward because he said a few bad words. That'll teach all of the kids not to use potty words :rolleyes:
Also - please get off your high horse. It's insulting to think that people who are a little rough around the edges in FIRST don't want to help kids.
Every mentor has their own style and every team is different. I relate to my students on a personal level because I was one of them only 10 years ago. Sometimes that means saying things that aren't 100% politically correct. They know as crass as I can be sometimes that I'm doing it because I care about them and care about my team.
*Insert Will Smith's "Parents Just Don't Understand"*
techhelpbb
02-05-2016, 16:22
First the paper airplane barrage and now Will.I.AM has a potty mouth!?
Did anyone have fun this year my: goodness the carnage :p
We need potty mouth inspectors handing out tickets for the FIRST swear jar!
The FIRST swear jar should be on a AndyMark chassis and be summoned by the potty mouth inspector:
pay up or it will shake you to take your pocket change :)
(The FIRST swear jar robot is a viable commercial product to replace meter maids.)
Theseusgoats
02-05-2016, 16:34
Honestly, I don't think he did anything wrong. I mean he was passionate and said what be wanted. It's not like highschool kids are so innocent and naive not to know those kind of words. Maybe if it were more common, we would be okay with it?
synth3tk
02-05-2016, 16:59
Honestly, I don't think he did anything wrong. I mean he was passionate and said what be wanted. It's not like highschool kids are so innocent and naive not to know those kind of words. Maybe if it were more common, we would be okay with it?
I don't think most people are arguing about the highschoolers hearing it (although some people are). From what I can tell, it's more-or-less the young kids, parents, and sponsors.
The other Gabe
02-05-2016, 17:31
I understand why Jeff has remained silent for 12 years.
Care to expand on this opinion?
After Saturday I don’t recognize his accomplishment.
So... you had no issue with the vulgarity in his music, including when he performed in front of large audiences. But then he's vulgar in front of a large audience, and you disapprove of it? :confused:
Tharioth Pillow
02-05-2016, 18:29
A few things.
I don't know if anyone has brought up the fact that there were plenty of smaller kids in the audience... and I don't know if it changes anyone's opinion.
Personally, if you take out the kids, I think the majority of teens and parents share and don't mind will.i.am's blunt opinion.
Also, as much as this inspires and markets FRC quite well, did it really show what FRC is about? I don't think it fits in with Woodie's definition of Gracious Professionalism...
Please note that I'm not actually for or against Will's comment.
I don't know if anyone has brought up the fact that there were plenty of smaller kids in the audience... and I don't know if it changes anyone's opinion.
That is what bothers me. Many high schoolers may use that language in everyday conversation, and if the crowd was just high schoolers and adults, I probably wouldn't care too much. I think that what wil.i.am said does resonate well with that audience (since that is also his target audience as an entertainer) - more powerfully so than a more PC version of his statement. IMO, when a statement is scripted, or said using language very clearly not typical of the person speaking, it's harder to believe sincerity.
But when a 4th grader goes home and asks "Mommy, what does that mean?", I can imagine that might raise some parents' eyebrows and a bring up questions about the type of program their child is involved in that has them picking up that language. I don't think that younger kids quite understand how big of a deal it is that a major entertainer just dropped an f-bomb on a world stage in front of a lot of impressionable students and sponsors, so the shock value of the language (which is what makes the statement powerful to older students and adults) is lost on them.
I don't think that his language choice aligns well with FIRST's image of a program that develops young, confident professionals. Yes, inspiration and recognition of science and technology is why we're here, but the behavior of students who participate in the program reflects on the program itself (just like schools are for teaching, but every time you go on a field trip, you're told "don't forget, you're representing our school"). That's part of what sponsors see when they're looking at what their investment in this program is helping build. Swearing may be prevalent in many professional workplaces (mine included), but is still viewed as unprofessional in many contexts - interviews, presentations, when working with customers, etc, and that's what gives it a bad rap overall. I'm not sure how to communicate how I feel about this other than saying "it just doesn't look good on FIRST".
It's great that wil.i.am has been supportive of this program, and I appreciate his support even more so after the stories about his enthusiasm that Dean told during his speech. I appreciate his frankness and his sincerity, but I don't think it was appropriate for the audience.
dirtbikerxz
02-05-2016, 20:05
A few things.
I don't know if anyone has brought up the fact that there were plenty of smaller kids in the audience... and I don't know if it changes anyone's opinion
.....
Also, as much as this inspires and markets FRC quite well, did it really show what FRC is about? I don't think it fits in with Woodie's definition of Gracious Professionalism...
Please note that I'm not actually for or against Will's comment.
I have thought about this, and my response is that, if someone tells me that a child hasn't been exposed to much fowler language at school or in a general movie, than they have a really really protected childhood.
And in my opinion, i don't think this has anything to do with gracious professionalism. Gracious professionalism is showing passion and helping each other out (broken into the simplest terms). By doing this, Will.I.Am showed his passion for first.
But gracious professionalism and this just aren't related.
dirtbikerxz
02-05-2016, 20:08
...
But when a 4th grader goes home and asks "Mommy, what does that mean?", I can imagine that might raise some parents' eyebrows and a bring up questions about the type of program their child is involved in that has them picking up that language.
...
While I'm not commenting on the rest of your post, I can say that when I was in 4th grade (hell even 3rd grade) (7 years ago), i knew much fowler language than this. Times are simply changing.
While I'm not commenting on the rest of your post, I can say that when I was in 4th grade (hell even 3rd grade) (7 years ago), i knew much fowler language than this. Times are simply changing.
I don't think I knew what a swear word was until at least middle school, which, granted, was over a decade ago (man do I feel old right now). I have friends my age who, from the stories they and their parents have told me, were swearing in kindergarten. All depends on your upbringing :)
Abhishek R
02-05-2016, 20:23
While I'm not commenting on the rest of your post, I can say that when I was in 4th grade (hell even 3rd grade) (7 years ago), i knew much fowler language than this. Times are simply changing.
Not everyone can say the same nor do people want to be able to say the same.
dirtbikerxz
02-05-2016, 20:29
Not everyone can say the same nor do people want to be able to say the same.
I didn't exactly ask to know this language at that time (or now for that matter), it just happens un-wantedly.
P.S I definitely didn't learn this from my parents....
Chris Hibner
02-05-2016, 20:40
That is what bothers me.
But when a 4th grader goes home and asks "Mommy, what does that mean?", I can imagine that might raise some parents' eyebrows and a bring up questions about the type of program their child is involved in that has them picking up that language.
I don't know if anyone has brought up the fact that there were plenty of smaller kids in the audience... and I don't know if it changes anyone's opinion.
Sorry for quoting you guys in particular but, it's confession time...
I learned to swear (including the F-word) when I was probably about six years old (from the neighbor kid). I had a very vulgar mouth after that, but of course not while adults were around. And yet I turned into a highly responsible adult. I have multiple degrees, own businesses, was an airline pilot, mentor kids, etc. - all despite being exposed to swear words when I was a young kid. I seriously think people get way too uptight about this stuff.
And in another thread there was talk of me being an "old man". BTW, that was back in the early 80's, so I would argue that times haven't changed all that much.
Sorry if you all have lower opinions of me now.
dirtbikerxz
02-05-2016, 20:41
Sorry for quoting you guys in particular but, it's confession time...
I learned to swear (including the F-word) when I was probably about six years old (from the neighbor kid). I had a very vulgar mouth after that, but of course not while adults were around. And yet I turned into a highly responsible adult. I have multiple degrees, own businesses, was an airline pilot, mentor kids, etc. - all despite being exposed to swear words when I was a young kid. I seriously think people get way too uptight about this stuff. Sorry if you all have lower opinions of me now.
100 percent agree.
Language aside, I still fail to see why anyone would be inspired or feel validated by a rapper / entertainment celebrity at a robotics and engineering competition.
As a kid, I never cared what a musician said about my involvement in robotics, I would have much rather gotten validation from a real engineering celebrity like Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos or Charlie Bolden.
Would the audience still react the same way if Kim Kardashian walked in and said she loves robots?
dirtbikerxz
02-05-2016, 20:54
Would the audience still react the same way if Kim Kardashian walked in and said she loves robots?
Kim Kardashian dosen't have the same sort of social impact that Will.I.Am does
Language aside, I still fail to see why anyone would be inspired or feel validated by a rapper / entertainment celebrity at a robotics and engineering competition.
As a kid, I never cared what a musician said about my involvement in robotics, I would have much rather gotten validation from a real engineering celebrity like Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos or Charlie Bolden.
Would the audience still react the same way if Kim Kardashian walked in and said she loves robots?
Actually go look up Will.I.Am before downplaying all that he has done. Calling him just a "rapper/entertainment celebrity" is down right insulting towards him.
I seriously think people get way too uptight about this stuff.
I agree, but I also still think there's a time and place for when it's not appropriate. I feel that I was raised fairly conservatively compared to some of my peers and it's hard to shake that sometimes - guess my comment was more of a minority/personal opinion than I had thought.
The dude was known to swear a lot so I was more surprised it didn't happen sooner.
I played the video today, in all my classes. I also played SF1:2 and the Beach Bots righting themselves twice. Both were hits, kids were excited about robotics who didn't do it all year.
Just because everybody else is swearing, doesn't make it okay for you to swear.
Actually go look up Will.I.Am before downplaying all that he has done. Calling him just a "rapper/entertainment celebrity" is down right insulting towards him.
You'll have to enlighten me I guess. Can't really find any good information on what meaningful impact he's had to promote STEM besides talking about how dope it is. If the point is to get the public interested in STEM then why is his only appearance about this at the FIRST Championship where he's preaching to people already involved? Shouldn't he promote it at every other event he hosts or speaks?
Should we invite Kanye West next year, or maybe Miley Cyrus? They have quite a few Twitter followers, are these the kind of people we want to aspire to be?
RonAyyyyyyyy
02-05-2016, 21:32
Just because everybody else is swearing, doesn't make it okay for you to swear.
Just because everyone says it's bad to to swear, doesn't mean it is
Carolyn_Grace
02-05-2016, 21:37
You'll have to enlighten me I guess. Can't really find any good information on what meaningful impact he's had to promote STEM besides talking about how dope it is.
Sigh. Let me Google that for you.
http://iamangelfoundation.org
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=will.i.am+stem
Just because everyone says it's bad to to swear, doesn't mean it is
Just because everyone says it's okay to swear, doesn't mean it is. :p
RonAyyyyyyyy
02-05-2016, 21:43
Just because everyone says it's okay to swear, doesn't mean it is. :p
Darn it! Foiled again!
dirtbikerxz
02-05-2016, 21:45
You'll have to enlighten me I guess. Can't really find any good information on what meaningful impact he's had to promote STEM besides talking about how dope it is. If the point is to get the public interested in STEM then why is his only appearance about this at the FIRST Championship where he's preaching to people already involved? Shouldn't he promote it at every other event he hosts or speaks?
Sigh. Let me Google that for you.
http://iamangelfoundation.org
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=will.i.am+stem
This is inappropriate... I know... but i have to say it, my teenage mind won't let me not do it...... REKT
You'll have to enlighten me I guess. Can't really find any good information on what meaningful impact he's had to promote STEM besides talking about how dope it is. If the point is to get the public interested in STEM then why is his only appearance about this at the FIRST Championship where he's preaching to people already involved? Shouldn't he promote it at every other event he hosts or speaks?
Should we invite Kanye West next year, or maybe Miley Cyrus? They have quite a few Twitter followers, are these the kind of people we want to aspire to be?
Google and Youtube are wonderful inventions.
Mike Marandola
02-05-2016, 21:46
Should we invite Kanye West next year, or maybe Miley Cyrus? They have quite a few Twitter followers, are these the kind of people we want to aspire to be?
Yes! They are both very creative and talented people and if they are genuinely passionate about the program, what is the reason not to?
You'll have to enlighten me I guess. Can't really find any good information on what meaningful impact he's had to promote STEM besides talking about how dope it is. If the point is to get the public interested in STEM then why is his only appearance about this at the FIRST Championship where he's preaching to people already involved? Shouldn't he promote it at every other event he hosts or speaks?
Should we invite Kanye West next year, or maybe Miley Cyrus? They have quite a few Twitter followers, are these the kind of people we want to aspire to be?
Try googling the i.am.angel foundation. Or read his Wikipedia entry. Or see some of the interviews he's given about FIRST. How hard did you search?
Or, you could go this route (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV0wTtiJygY).
dirtbikerxz
02-05-2016, 22:03
Or, you could go this route (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV0wTtiJygY).
HAHA, that just made my day :P ;D
Chris Hibner
02-05-2016, 22:23
I agree, but I also still think there's a time and place for when it's not appropriate.
For the most part, I do agree with you there. I try not to say anything inappropriate around students since I try to respect how their parents are raising their kids.
But with that said, I turned out okay so I guess when something like this happens it just doesn't bother me that much (although I would say I was extremely surprised when it happened).
Then again, I also grew up listening to heavy metal, which I've also been told will turn me into a degenerate. I guess I don't have a lot of faith in what a lot of people say is going to make you turn out bad. I still love me some metal, BTW.
For what its worth, I'd heard just as bad in 4th grade, but I went to public school in a big city, so...:rolleyes:
I want to try and flip this conversation a bit:
There have been at least a few posts saying or suggesting that other speakers at champs/other competitions are "boring" or "say the same thing every year" or "no one pays attention anymore." This isn't the impression I'd like to leave if I was a sponsor giving a speech. People respect genuine passion. And I know people get passionate about FIRST; I see it every freaking year! And the sponsors really care too! But when it comes time to actually talk about it and get excited on stage, it seems people dial it back. WHY????? You don't have to cuss, but if your company is investing millions of dollars in a program, act out that passion for us!
Billfred
02-05-2016, 22:45
I’ve been a mentor for 12 consecutive years and remained silent on Delphi, that stops today. Not many things make me angry, this did.
If William, Kamen, Flowers or FIRST won’t say it, I will.
It was WRONG and inappropriate.
Understanding the majority in attendance were kids raised on idealizing celebrities the shock factor was rewarded with a roar of applause. The crowds response in addition to all the positive supportive post greatly sadden me about we have become. If I have to explain why then our world is in worse shape than I thought. Was it a mistake that he wish he could take back? Maybe, if so he should say so. William boast about being from the hood, many are that are good decent role models. After Saturday I don’t recognize his accomplishment. Go ahead vulgarity supporters and rip me up if you'd like, I can take.
FIRST is supposed to change the culture, It appears the culture is changing FIRST.
Mr. Jeff Sparky 384
My comments do not reflect the opinion of my team.
I'm going to agree and disagree here.
I do think Will's comments were sincere if colorful. There are only so many ways to express what he did with the energy he did, so he went with the most common (if not necessarily appropriate) one. In what is an increasingly-scripted Einstein, this was a genuine shock--which was probably part of the rousing applause from even Dean and Dave. It's certainly not something FIRST should stick on the highlight reel, and I hope Dean was clever enough to find a swear jar afterward, but it's not the end of the world.
That said, I remember 2007 when Dean came to South Carolina for a benefit dinner and met beforehand with local FRC teams. He gave a talk (perhaps the best talk I've ever seen from him) about what's become the Slingshot and the stirling engine projects, the latter of which can be powered by burning cow patties. So guess what was on that slide? An oh-so-slightly-greeked version of one word Will said on Saturday night. That, too, was not the end of the world.
Use it as a teachable moment, smile at one of those moments that will become part of FIRST's oral history (Mandy Moore, how 'ya doing?), and get back to building robots if it bothers you so. :)
Billfred
02-05-2016, 22:54
You'll have to enlighten me I guess. Can't really find any good information on what meaningful impact he's had to promote STEM besides talking about how dope it is. If the point is to get the public interested in STEM then why is his only appearance about this at the FIRST Championship where he's preaching to people already involved? Shouldn't he promote it at every other event he hosts or speaks?
Should we invite Kanye West next year, or maybe Miley Cyrus? They have quite a few Twitter followers, are these the kind of people we want to aspire to be?
His foundation claims 15 teams (http://iamangelfoundation.org/programs/i-am-steam/i-am-first/) of funding. I recall a team picture that had the logo on the banner, but it's not in TIMS--so call it at least anecdotal confirmation.
Coca-Cola had already been around FIRST from the Atlanta days, but I doubt the Ekocycle printer collaboration happens without Will's involvement (remember, he was in the TV spots). Whatever you thought of the printers themselves--hey, we're giving out 3D printers where there weren't any before.
Oh, and dare we bring up the arm-twist of Intel (which he's also affiliated with) to bankroll the I Am FIRST telecast on one hour of prime time on ABC?
I'm not saying Will is perfect, or even the best thing to happen to FIRST (you'll have a hard time knocking Woodie off)--but he isn't just preaching to the choir.
(And if Kanye takes the invite, I'd welcome him with open arms...but let's invite him to speak at the mentor breakfast to be safe.)
I really appreciated Will.i.am's comment. I think his use of profanity did a beautiful job of cutting straight through all of the buzzwords and marketing speak that we (and I'm guilty of this too) often end up using to describe the benefits of FIRST. Ultimately, his words concisely expressed the thing that I and many others really love about FIRST: how motherf***ing dope it is.
Should we invite Kanye West next year, or maybe Miley Cyrus?
We already got Miley on board :rolleyes: : https://youtu.be/vYuOKb3gO7E?t=28s
connor.worley
02-05-2016, 22:57
You'll have to enlighten me I guess. Can't really find any good information on what meaningful impact he's had to promote STEM besides talking about how dope it is. If the point is to get the public interested in STEM then why is his only appearance about this at the FIRST Championship where he's preaching to people already involved? Shouldn't he promote it at every other event he hosts or speaks?
Should we invite Kanye West next year, or maybe Miley Cyrus? They have quite a few Twitter followers, are these the kind of people we want to aspire to be?
I am sort of baffled by this. Both the total lack of research and ignorance towards changing culture.
orangemoore
02-05-2016, 23:15
You'll have to enlighten me I guess. Can't really find any good information on what meaningful impact he's had to promote STEM besides talking about how dope it is. If the point is to get the public interested in STEM then why is his only appearance about this at the FIRST Championship where he's preaching to people already involved? Shouldn't he promote it at every other event he hosts or speaks?
Should we invite Kanye West next year, or maybe Miley Cyrus? They have quite a few Twitter followers, are these the kind of people we want to aspire to be?
:confused: :confused: :confused:
Did you listen at all to what Dean said that Will.I.Am has done for FIRST? It certainly sounds like you haven't. :(
This isn't just a random entertainer coming to our event.
cadandcookies
02-05-2016, 23:33
I cannot agree with mrnoble's posts on this enough.
One of the big things lately has been increasing diversity in STEM fields-- this means appealing to and accepting people who do not fit the stereotypical mold of an engineer. I'm pretty standard engineer stock-- guess what, I'm a young, white man. The traditional values associated with engineering are similar to the ones I was raised with and (for the most part) live by. Part of that is language choice (yup, in third grade my dad grounded me for saying d--- while playing a football video game with him). In other areas, cultures, et cetera, that's hardly worth raising an eyebrow at. If we say we want diversity, but only if you'll talk and act like a stereotypical "respectable" old white man, I think we're missing the point.
Kudos to will.i.am for saying it how he (and I) feel it. Expletives serve a valuable purpose in communication, and expressing exactly how awesome something is is one of those purposes.
dirtbikerxz
02-05-2016, 23:49
We already got Miley on board :rolleyes: : https://youtu.be/vYuOKb3gO7E?t=28s
whaaaaat, when did this happen?
whaaaaat, when did this happen?
Back in 2011 there was a very short lived TV program for FIRST.
PayneTrain
03-05-2016, 00:10
I’ve been a mentor for 12 consecutive years and remained silent on Delphi, that stops today. Not many things make me angry, this did.
If William, Kamen, Flowers or FIRST won’t say it, I will.
It was WRONG and inappropriate.
Understanding the majority in attendance were kids raised on idealizing celebrities the shock factor was rewarded with a roar of applause. The crowds response in addition to all the positive supportive post greatly sadden me about we have become. If I have to explain why then our world is in worse shape than I thought. Was it a mistake that he wish he could take back? Maybe, if so he should say so. William boast about being from the hood, many are that are good decent role models. After Saturday I don’t recognize his accomplishment. Go ahead vulgarity supporters and rip me up if you'd like, I can take.
FIRST is supposed to change the culture, It appears the culture is changing FIRST.
Mr. Jeff Sparky 384
My comments do not reflect the opinion of my team.
Looks like I'm late, but in the grand tradition of Chief Delphi, I'll butt in and beat the dead horse anyway!
I guess you can think it's wrong or damaging, but I believe there are more pressing issues in FIRST, including the state we both live in!
-Team attrition in Virginia
-Lack of support for the truly desperate inner-city teams in Richmond
-Volunteer burnout and lack of depth
-Alumni burnout
-Mentor burnout
-Lack of decent programs even in populous and wealthy suburban areas
-Lack of cooperation between various parties in Virginia to make FIRST better
-The politics that contribute to most of, if not all of the above
-Adults that act like children, no cursing required!
So we disagree! Maybe I'm wrong! Maybe FIRST as a whole and the FIRST in Virginia product were crown jewels of this insular utopia until Dean let "William" dare to open his mouth and express emotion towards a program that, if it is not obvious, he is very passionate about.
When a bunch of pasty people parade around in some cheap ren-faire garb at these awesome robotics competitions, how the hell is that attracting kids to the program who need it? That is embarrassing. Some guy cursing on a hot mic at Champs isn't a black eye on FIRST, it's the old white people that nudge the kids that need this program out of the way by trying to wall off our world from those kids.
Wil Payne, Mech Tech Dragons, FRC Team 422
4 years a student, 4 years a coach
My opinions may not reflect that of everyone on my team but I sure as sunshine hope it does.
Care to expand on this opinion?
OP: "What are your thoughts on this issue?"
MJ: "These are my opinions."
CD: "YOUR OPINIONS ARE WRONG AND YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED."*
My expansion on this opinion is that people are so quick to judge and give knee-jerk reactions that it creates a very hostile, and scary, environment. So, yes, I completely understand why Mr.Jeff patrolled the CD seas for a dozen years before making a post, and I understand why he probably regrets it now. Not because he was wrong, or wrong in doing so, but because people don't know how to be civil - or at least are unwilling to do so.
Yes, I realize that compared to some Internet forums, chiefdelphi is relatively benign. But that's like saying burglary is better than murder. THEY'RE BOTH CRIMINAL ACTS.**
My personal thoughts? I'm conflicted. I grew up with the voices of George Carlin, Robin Williams, Sam Kinison, Tupac Shakur, Heraclitus shaping my worldview of what language, and truth, is. Yes, I appreciate Mr. am for coming out from behind his public persona*** and Being Real. And yes, I am very glad my 7 and 4 year old sons were not watching the webcast at that time, as they were earlier.
I understand that some may consider my children to be "sheltered" since they haven't heard this language before (to my knowledge) but as a parent, I like to think I can make the decision as to when and how my children can become "un-sheltered" and I don't expect a robotics tournament to be the impetus for that conversation with my kids.
*this is meant to portray a 'conversation' that has three speakers, the OP, MJ, and CD. The words following the colons, in quotation marks, are meant to be what each speaker says, in turn.
**I am not comparing an Internet bulletin board site to criminal acts. I am using an analogy.
***Mr. am has a very carefully crafted public image. Yes, his lyrics can be misogynistic, crude, and vulgar. But look at the man away from the music. Always impeccably dressed. No visible tattoos or piercings (earrings notwithstanding). Very thoughtful in his interviews, speeches, television appearances (like The Voice UK). Just about as clean-cut and well-spoken as you'll find this side of Pat Boone.
ayeckley
03-05-2016, 10:37
If you drop F-bombs when you are interviewing with me for an engineering position (entry level, senior - doesn't matter) I am not going to hire you*. My reaction to your profanity will not be "this person is very passionate, and their presence will increase diversity within my organization". My reaction will be "you don't understand even the basics of etiquette and if I put you in front of a customer you will make our company look bad and damage a reputation that has taken decades to establish". True story. Curse like a sailor if you like in your private life, but not if you are giving a public speech to thousands of people from all age groups and backgrounds.
*And before anyone chimes in with "well then I wouldn't want to work for your company", my preemptive response is "oh yes you do".
dubiousSwain
03-05-2016, 11:01
I would just like to point out that Will. I. Am even puts robots in his music videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUFsQ5lTo6g
He really likes robotics.
Chris is me
03-05-2016, 11:06
If you drop F-bombs when you are interviewing with me for an engineering position (entry level, senior - doesn't matter) I am not going to hire you*.
Okay, this post is absolutely ridiculous. Whether or not you are supportive of his expression or profanity use in general, I don't think anyone could possibly argue that an entertainer's appearance at a public event is at all the same social situation as a job interview. Behavior in job interviews, or even at one's professional workplace in general, is very different than behavior in other contexts. I hope you don't believe people behave like they do in job interviews every day of their lives...
marshall
03-05-2016, 11:08
I would just like to point out that Will. I. Am even puts robots in his music videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUFsQ5lTo6g
He really likes robotics.
If Fergie showed up to an interview dressed like that I wouldn't hire her. :rolleyes:
PayneTrain
03-05-2016, 11:09
If you drop F-bombs when you are interviewing with me for an engineering position (entry level, senior - doesn't matter) I am not going to hire you*. My reaction to your profanity will not be "this person is very passionate, and their presence will increase diversity within my organization". My reaction will be "you don't understand even the basics of etiquette and if I put you in front of a customer you will make our company look bad and damage a reputation that has taken decades to establish". True story. Curse like a sailor if you like in your private life, but not if you are giving a public speech to thousands of people from all age groups and backgrounds.
*And before anyone chimes in with "well then I wouldn't want to work for your company", my preemptive response is "oh yes you do".
I think if you show up to an engineering interview with grease-covered hands, a sweaty robotics team shirt and ripped khaki shorts and old trainers, you probably wouldn't get hired there either.
*And before anyone chimes in with "well then I wouldn't want to work for your company", my preemptive response is "oh yes you do".
Post-emptively, would working for your company mean leaving teaching to become an engineer?
OP: What are your thoughts on this issue?
MJ: These are my opinions.
CD: YOUR OPINIONS ARE WRONG AND YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED.
My expansion on this opinion is that people are so quick to judge and give knee-jerk reactions that it creates a very hostile, and scary, environment. So, yes, I completely understand why Mr.Jeff patrolled the CD seas for a dozen years before making a post, and I understand why he probably regrets it now. Not because he was wrong, or wrong in doing so, but because people don't know how to be civil - or at least are unwilling to do so.
Yes, I realize that compared to some Internet forums, chiefdelphi is relatively benign. But that's like saying burglary is better than murder. THEY'RE BOTH CRIMINAL ACTS.
Yeah, no. If you say something controversial on the internet, you're going to get called out for it and told why you're wrong. Are underdog viewpoints now shielded by some sort of political correctness? Comparing a simple discussion of conflicting views with something as extreme as a 'criminal act' is outrageous. At no point was Mr. J told to kill himself or to leave the forum, and I would be highly surprised if he was sent harassing or nasty PMs. All because your opinion isn't the majority doesn't mean you're immune to criticism.
Tharioth Pillow
03-05-2016, 11:28
Sorry for quoting you guys in particular but, it's confession time...
I learned to swear (including the F-word) when I was probably about six years old (from the neighbor kid). I had a very vulgar mouth after that, but of course not while adults were around. And yet I turned into a highly responsible adult. I have multiple degrees, own businesses, was an airline pilot, mentor kids, etc. - all despite being exposed to swear words when I was a young kid. I seriously think people get way too uptight about this stuff.
And in another thread there was talk of me being an "old man". BTW, that was back in the early 80's, so I would argue that times haven't changed all that much.
Sorry if you all have lower opinions of me now.
Nah. This thread is purely for discussions, so I'm not planning on walking away with lower opinions of people just because they put out a good argument.
And I know people get passionate about FIRST; I see it every freaking year! And the sponsors really care too! But when it comes time to actually talk about it and get excited on stage, it seems people dial it back. WHY????? You don't have to cuss, but if your company is investing millions of dollars in a program, act out that passion for us!
To some extent, there's a script. It's meant to ensure joint messages are being shared and to prevent unexpected CD 10 page threads about a speech. At productions of this level, things tend to get micromanaged just out of habit.
OP: What are your thoughts on this issue?
MJ: These are my opinions.
My expansion on this opinion is that people are so quick to judge and give knee-jerk reactions that it creates a very hostile, and scary, environment. So, yes, I completely understand why Mr.Jeff patrolled the CD seas for a dozen years before making a post, and I understand why he probably regrets it now. Not because he was wrong, or wrong in doing so, but because people don't know how to be civil - or at least are unwilling to do so.
I'd argue THIS response is far less civil than other things being said to MJ. Is it only civil to agree with him? There have been a couple I rolled my eyes at (I understand why he hasn't posted or whatever that was as an example). But, they've generally been well articulated counterpoints. To call that uncivil is, well, very uncivilized. You're essentially saying "CD: YOUR OPINIONS ARE WRONG AND YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED." We either agree with his rage or we're wrong and should be ashamed for offering a counterpoint. If we consider the hypocritical nature of this claim, it becomes even less civil.
People aren't going to agree on this topic and that's ok. It hit the edge of what we feel comfortable with in society. Some will be on one side and others on the living dangerously side. It's important both sides keep a level head and be careful to avoid shaming the other for having an opinion.
It is possible to provide a counterpoint without attacking the person.
Perhaps in a non-election year we can remember how to do that.
Akash Rastogi
03-05-2016, 11:51
OP: What are your thoughts on this issue?
MJ: These are my opinions.
CD: YOUR OPINIONS ARE WRONG AND YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED.
My expansion on this opinion is that people are so quick to judge and give knee-jerk reactions that it creates a very hostile, and scary, environment.
It is possible to provide a counterpoint without attacking the person.
Perhaps in a non-election year we can remember how to do that.
"My expansion on this opinion is that people are so quick to judge and give knee-jerk reactions that it creates a very hostile, and scary, environment."
In your post you mention CD posters being quick to judge...yet you find other people judging a great guy based on one spoken sentence (and probably a lot of other prejudice) to be perfectly fine?
Travis Hoffman
03-05-2016, 11:55
Yeah, no. If you say something controversial on the internet, you're going to get called out for it and told why you're wrong.
So being in the vocal majority makes you so "right" in your views, that an (allegedly) minority (allegedly) "controversial" opinion is worthy of being derided into the shadows as positively "wrong"?
Should we be erecting a safe space around this thread? Someone with more experience in such matters, tell me if that's a good idea. Only authorized opinions endorsed by the collective are permitted to be heard. All others must be forced to remain outside the safe zone. :rolleyes:
So being in the vocal majority makes you so "right" in your views, that an (allegedly) minority (allegedly) "controversial" opinion is worthy of being derided into the shadows as positively "wrong"?
Should we be erecting a safe space around this thread? Someone with more experience in such matters, tell me if that's a good idea. :rolleyes:
Sorry, I wasn't aware that the vernacular of my sentence was going to be nit-picked instead of the general message I was attempting to communicate. :rolleyes:
I didn't realize I would have to do this, but here it goes. Like most people who hold opinions, I believe my opinion is correct (a synonym of "right"). Like most people who encounter those who have differing opinions than theirs, I believe that their differing opinion is incorrect. By "controversial", I meant against the apparent hive-mind that CD has. When Mr. J made his post, there were multiple replies stating that will.i.am's comment is being over-reacted to. I'm confident if you sum up the amount of those replies, they're more numerous than the amount of Mr. J-style replies. Hence, "controversial" in context of this thread. Lastly, "wrong" is also relative. Considering the fact that there is no end-all-be-all for opinions, "wrong" was used to illustrate that it is a differing opinion.
Travis Hoffman
03-05-2016, 12:21
Sorry, I wasn't aware that the vernacular of my sentence was going to be nit-picked instead of the general message I was attempting to communicate. :rolleyes:
I didn't realize I would have to do this, but here it goes. Like most people who hold opinions, I believe my opinion is correct (a synonym of "right"). Like most people who encounter those who have differing opinions than theirs, I believe that their differing opinion is incorrect. By "controversial", I meant against the apparent hive-mind that CD has. When Mr. J made his post, there were multiple replies stating that will.i.am's comment is being over-reacted to. I'm confident if you sum up the amount of those replies, they're more numerous than the amount of Mr. J-style replies. Hence, "controversial" in context of this thread. Lastly, "wrong" is also relative. Considering the fact that there is no end-all-be-all for opinions, "wrong" was used to illustrate that it is a differing opinion.
"Calling someone out" and telling someone they are "wrong" seem like pretty black and white actions to me. :) Rather confrontational tone (and I know alllllll about those). "Questioning their opinion" and "explaining why you disagree with it" seem much more in line with what you just outlined. Say what ye mean.
And thank you for confirming the existence of the "hive-mind" in these here parts. Many of the busy little bees are seemingly angry at the interlopers and are assiduously working to push these pests out of the idyllic society they have constructed. Why not have them in for tea and cakes first before showing them the door?
dirtbikerxz
03-05-2016, 12:38
If you drop F-bombs when you are interviewing with me for an engineering position (entry level, senior - doesn't matter) I am not going to hire you*. My reaction to your profanity will not be "this person is very passionate, and their presence will increase diversity within my organization". My reaction will be "you don't understand even the basics of etiquette and if I put you in front of a customer you will make our company look bad and damage a reputation that has taken decades to establish". True story. Curse like a sailor if you like in your private life, but not if you are giving a public speech to thousands of people from all age groups and backgrounds.
*And before anyone chimes in with "well then I wouldn't want to work for your company", my preemptive response is "oh yes you do".
Here is the thing though.... Will.I.AM is not applying for a job, working for FIRST, although that would be pretty cool... official original FIRST songs anyone?. He is speaking passionately, in almost a personal level to the audience of the "sport" that he finds most amazing.
And in other regards... when your going to an interview for any decent job like a engineer of some sort, you most likely will wear a suit and tie, or something of that caliber.... but you won't wear that everyday when you are working (in most jobs)... its the same thing with using language such as this, in a appropriate context such as this
official original FIRST songs anyone?.
Kinda off topic, but his colab song with The Script, Hall of Fame (http://youtube.com/watch?v=jukv9Q1eR2g) could be argued to have subtle references
ayeckley
03-05-2016, 12:51
Here is the thing though.... Will.I.AM is not applying for a job, working for FIRST, although that would be pretty cool... official original FIRST songs anyone?. He is speaking passionately, in almost a personal level to the audience of the "sport" that he finds most amazing.
I would argue that unless he had stormed the stage and taken the microphone out of someone else's hands, he was addressing the crowd as a de-facto representative of FIRST. That was the point I was making when I referenced F-bombs in a job interview. Once you become associated with an organization (FIRST, an employer, etc.) it's not really possible to dissociate yourself from that organization at will (no pun intended).
I had a related thought: the use of profanity is prohibited on Chief Delphi (and yes, I verified that statement before I made it). So logically then doesn't the "profanity is no big deal; it's just passion" crowd want to see that policy changed on this forum? If not, then why not?
I had a related thought: the use of profanity is prohibited on Chief Delphi (and yes, I verified that statement before I made it). So logically then doesn't the "profanity is no big deal; it's just passion" crowd want to see that policy changed on this forum? If not, then why not?
Because this is the internet. How you act on the internet, is entirely different then how you act in person.
Language is cultural.
will.i.am was sharing his culture.
For some of us, his culture is one we share only with close friends. For others, it blends with our work environment (as a teacher at an alternative high school, this is actually the case for me.)
For many people, his culture is completely foreign. It doesn't make these people outdated. It doesn't make them sticks-in-the-mud. It just means they don't appreciate it. That's okay too.
If what he said is something that will impact your team in a positive way, then use it.
If what he said is something that would put a negative light on your team, then don't use it.
It's the age-old debate of trying to prove that your way of [building a robot, organizing a team, drive coaching, finding finances, etc.] is better than others'. It's not.
Give me a break. Swearing is not culture. Anybody can swear. To attribute everything to culture is to allow far worse atrocities. We should hold ourselves to a higher standard.
Kevin Leonard
03-05-2016, 13:18
Everyone stop insulting each other personally.
I think we're in agreement for the most part here when in reference to what Will said, despite the relatively harsh discourse taking place.
We'd prefer he didn't use the language he used, because it dilutes the message he's trying to deliver, and it sets a bad example for students in the crowd, especially those of a young age.
However I also think most of us understand that the authenticity of Will's passion for FIRST is something we love, and something that spoke to a lot of students.
Will.i.am can be both a good and bad ambassador for FIRST in the same instance.
Please carry on debating the issue of cuss words in general, and the use of them in this specific case. CD is actually plenty tame and I'm glad people can engage each other here without it becoming an all out flame war. I disagree with some of you, and I will act according to my own conscience in this matter. I certainly won't be pursuing anyone I disagree with; Many of you have effective teams with their own cultures, and more power to you if that's the case. I hope you'll all do me the same courtesy as I run my team to the best of my ability, within the context of my school culture. Since (as I've noted before) my principal has been known to cuss in staff meetings and back-to-school presentations, I doubt complaints about my behavior would get very far anyway. Not that I think anyone would ever do that; just being preemptive (following Mr. Ayeckley's model).
If you agree with me about Mr. Am's quote, I want to update you that the t-shirt design is nearly complete and will be printed by the weekend. I will send out the proofs to those who have requested it this evening. There are two versions, one NSFW, and one that is abbreviated. Neither will have any FIRST logos, both will have an image of my team's CAD robot. :D
Chris is me
03-05-2016, 13:37
Give me a break. Swearing is not culture. Anybody can swear. To attribute everything to culture is to allow far worse atrocities. We should hold ourselves to a higher standard.
Why isn't language you don't like culture, but language you do like is culture? I don't think that's something you can say. The slippery slope argument ("if you say swearing is culture, you can say anything is culture, and that is a lot worse!") is fallacious at best.
Or, more fundamentally, what is wrong with swearing? Fundamentally, the only reason I don't swear in some contexts is to be polite to those who don't like to hear it. I try to avoid swearing around robotics children because they are less likely to have the social wherewithal to avoid swearing in mixed company, and I don't want them imitating my behavior. But I don't honestly see what's actually, morally, wrong with swearing. It's just words.
Unlike other taboos, which disparage marginalized groups and are thus inherently hurtful and perpetuate oppression, curse words just have one (of many) meaning(s) that refer to sexual or excretory acts or functions. Yet, other (non-curse) words we use that have one or more of these meanings are not held to the same standard. I legitimately don't get it. Not getting it doesn't stop me from trying to be nice and not swearing around people who do get it, but I think we need to understand why swearing is so bad in order to condemn this particular case (or any case, really).
Kinda off topic, but his colab song with The Script, Hall of Fame (http://youtube.com/watch?v=jukv9Q1eR2g) could be argued to have subtle references
Will.i.am created a version of this track with a few verses re-recorded that specifically mention robots and FIRST. I've heard it played at numerous events.
Mastonevich
03-05-2016, 13:40
I'm blown away at how many posts are FOR this. There are better ways to express how awesome FIRST is.
I'm blown away at how many posts are FOR this. There are better ways to express how awesome FIRST is.
I don't necessarily think the posts are advocating for #TSIMFD to become a rallying cry told to sponsors and potential new members of all ages everywhere. People are generally agreeing with Will.I.Am's passion and clear commitment to the program.
Consider that to be the inclusionary environment we all want FIRST to be, one must be sensitive to all cultures. There are many more than a handful of teams in the various FIRST competitions that are sponsored by religious organizations. Usually these are parochial schools of various sorts. Think of the impact such comments would have on those who read the following from Paul's Letter to the Ephesians and believe it to be the word of God:
But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.
What is the message sent to those who take the Bible literally and believe it is a sin to be exposed (or allow innocent people to be exposed) to such language?
Or, for those more aligned with the church of South Park, as you know we will all end up knee deep in meekrob when It Hits the Fan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Hits_the_Fan).
My point is that this creates an uncomfortable marketing situation. How do we market the program when people are literally prepared to print t-shirts that show the language and use the FIRST logo to bleep it out and make it legit to air? It potentially leads to a very uncomfortable situation where to preserve their image, FIRST disallows the use of the logo inside a quote delivered by one of their best champions at their premier event, live on video streams to the world.
Did it inspire a bunch of high school aged kids who can probably handle the language? Probably. Does it present an image problem for FIRST among certain populations? Yes. Is that a net positive? That's for you to judge.
If this was an audience of FRC/FTC students, I would have been totally fine with his remark. But there were JrFLL/FLL kids and families with small children in attendance. This was NOT a Black Eyed Peas concert, you do not expect to hear profanities from the speaker! I love the fact that he supports FIRST, but this was inappropriate!
I was glad that my FLL teams were not there. I know they are aware of all those words and probably use them among themselves, but you teach them that are appropriate places and company to use such language, THIS was not such occurrence!
Theseusgoats
03-05-2016, 15:38
Wow, I just saw the "my robot is better than your robot" thing and man did FIRST have support. Those were some of the most well known names on the planet : WILL.I.AM, miley Cyrus, Justin bieber, Justin Timberlake, snoop Dogg, and Jack black to name a few.
dirtbikerxz
03-05-2016, 15:43
Wow, I just saw the "my robot is better than your robot" thing and man did FIRST have support.
FIRST stiil has support... even more in fact :P
techhelpbb
03-05-2016, 16:22
From my perspective people are people...
Very exposed people are still people.
It makes little sense to hold FIRST entire as a reflection of a single comment that seems to aggravate some people.
FIRST should be FIRST and Will a supporter.
Will should not feel like he can never be him just because he has a public relationship with FIRST.
Now, fairly, if you know Will sometimes says things you do not like your kids hearing: address that however you choose for yourself. There seems little to gain by ganging up. A discussion about this is healthy but I support individuality as much as formality.
GaryVoshol
03-05-2016, 16:27
I've contemplated this for a few days now. I don't think the problem is that we haven't heard the words before - in fact I've heard at least some of them in church. Probably FLL'ers have heard them before too.
My concern is not the appropriateness of the language, but the appropriateness of it in that setting. If it was just words, there wouldn't be these huge discussions going on. Let's face it, the words are being discussed because of their shock value. No one expected to hear them onstage at FIRST.
I worked at a company with a VP of Manufacturing who seemed incapable of putting more than 3 words together without including a cuss word. Maybe he "came up thru the ranks" or maybe he thought it gave him cred with the union, I don't know. All I know is that it made me uncomfortable hearing him talk in a business meeting.
I think that's the issue we have here. When we have to mark videos of it NSFW, should we have applied the same to CMP? I wonder if it will have an effect on sponsors or schools, who might not be impressed.
Consider that to be the inclusionary environment we all want FIRST to be, one must be sensitive to all cultures. There are many more than a handful of teams in the various FIRST competitions that are sponsored by religious organizations. Usually these are parochial schools of various sorts. Think of the impact such comments would have on those who read the following from Paul's Letter to the Ephesians and believe it to be the word of God:
What is the message sent to those who take the Bible literally and believe it is a sin to be exposed (or allow innocent people to be exposed) to such language?
Thank you, thank you for making this my new favorite all-time CD thread. By introducing biblical exegesis as a standard for FIRST, you have not only opened the proverbial can of worms but you have also allowed me to speak on the topic in which I am formally trained (in Seminary).
Last week I took a team that included two Muslims, an Orthodox Jew, and a Seventh Day Adventist to CMP. There are numerous ways in which participating in FRC potentially conflicts with their beliefs and practices, including having events on a Saturday (Sabbath), and serving the team cheeseburgers. They and their families make choices and compromises in order to allow them to be part of the team, and we also make some compromises as a team to accommodate them. Still it's their choice to participate or not, knowing who and what we are.
If we want to quote the Apostle Paul, here's one for you:
"For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.”
1 Corinthians 9:19-22
Much more importantly, though, FIRST IS NOT A CHRISTIAN ORGANIZATION. Feel free to run your team as you see fit, but if you want Christian Robotics I strongly suggest you look elsewhere.
How do we market the program when people are literally prepared to print t-shirts
That would be me. They're already printing by the way, and my first customer (not really the right word, these are being sold at cost) is a team mother.
marshall
03-05-2016, 16:45
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to mrnoble again. :D
ayeckley
03-05-2016, 17:18
Because this is the internet. How you act on the internet, is entirely different then how you act in person.
Agreed that people do that, but it sounds like you are saying that swearing on the internet (i.e. on Chief Delphi) is taboo, but swearing IRL (i.e. on stage at CMP) is not? My experience has been the opposite.
Much more importantly, though, FIRST IS NOT A CHRISTIAN ORGANIZATION. Feel free to run your team as you see fit, but if you want Christian Robotics I strongly suggest you look elsewhere.
For the record, I never suggested that FIRST is a Christian Robotics organization nor that it should attempt to be one.
I'm actually not offended by the comment personally. But if we are going to talk about cultures, language, and inclusion, we need to talk about ALL cultures, languages, and inclusion.
Mastonevich
03-05-2016, 18:20
Is it OK when one of "your" students says those words in a public setting? What if Dean or Woody said those words?
BotDesigner
03-05-2016, 18:24
Thank you, thank you for making this my new favorite all-time CD thread. By introducing biblical exegesis as a standard for FIRST, you have not only opened the proverbial can of worms but you have also allowed me to speak on the topic in which I am formally trained (in Seminary).
Last week I took a team that included two Muslims, an Orthodox Jew, and a Seventh Day Adventist to CMP. There are numerous ways in which participating in FRC potentially conflicts with their beliefs and practices, including having events on a Saturday (Sabbath), and serving the team cheeseburgers. They and their families make choices and compromises in order to allow them to be part of the team, and we also make some compromises as a team to accommodate them. Still it's their choice to participate or not, knowing who and what we are.
If we want to quote the Apostle Paul, here's one for you:
"For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.”
1 Corinthians 9:19-22
Much more importantly, though, FIRST IS NOT A CHRISTIAN ORGANIZATION. Feel free to run your team as you see fit, but if you want Christian Robotics I strongly suggest you look elsewhere.
That would be me. They're already printing by the way, and my first customer (not really the right word, these are being sold at cost) is a team mother.
I don't think the intention of the post was to state that FIRST is a Christian organization.
However, there are people in FIRST who do take Christianity seriously and find that comment offensive. For example I had the gift of being able to mentor a phenomenal FLL team this year that won the Colorado championship and got to get a trip to worlds. After coming out of the awards ceremony a couple members and parents headed to Einstein and arrived just in time to hear will's interview. The parents immediately left with the kids and a really bad idea of what FRC really is. Recruiting this young engineers to my FRC team now involves convincing their parents that this is not "standard FIRST conduct."
I love FIRST because of the way it embraces Gracious Professionalism; should we tolerate having statement that lies far outside of GP said in front of +10,000 people of all cultures and ages?
Is it OK when one of "your" students says those words in a public setting? What if Dean or Woody said those words?
Depends on the context.
But if we are going to talk about cultures, language, and inclusion, we need to talk about ALL cultures, languages, and inclusion.
Sure, let's do. Are you allowing females on to your team? If yes, you are offending a significant portion of some cultures. Are you allowing students to work on Saturdays? Again, same issue. Do you happen to believe and teach that science advances humanity, and that we should embrace scientific pursuit? Does this include issues like the age of the earth, or the theory of evolution? How about corporate sponsorships for your team, which might include companies who make weapons or use fracking techniques to get natural gas out of the ground? That offends some folks.
Look, I teach in an urban environment, and the last thing I want to do is put a stumbling block in the way of my students. Cuss words are not a stumbling block here. Maybe they are where your team is. Okay, sorry about that. But FIRST probably wants to reach urban kids, and this was speaking their language. So I'm down with it. Sorry you're not.
Sure, let's do. Are you allowing females on to your team? If yes, you are offending a significant portion of some cultures. Are you allowing students to work on Saturdays? Again, same issue. Do you happen to believe and teach that science advances humanity, and that we should embrace scientific pursuit? Does this include issues like the age of the earth, or the theory of evolution?...
Consider what is necessary to reach the population you are alluding to. It's not an easy one to reach. And dropping an f-bomb on your biggest stage is vinegar, not honey.
You'll note from my location tag above that I live in Texas. This is the state where government has mandated that students in pubic schools must be taught both evolution and intelligent design. And then they are tested on both on a state standardized test that they must pass to graduate high school. You appear to feel you have a difficult situation with your team in the environment you teach in. Consider Texas, a state where there are significant poverty and drug problems among a population that has one of the highest number of places of worship per capita in the world.
Look, I teach in an urban environment, and the last thing I want to do is put a stumbling block in the way of my students. Cuss words are not a stumbling block here. Maybe they are where your team is.
They are. On my old team in the northeastern US, I would curse all the time as a mentor and no one really cared. It took all of one occurrence of me saying "hell" for me to be pulled aside and admonished by my teacher counterparts here in Texas. It was unacceptable and inappropriate. With the underserved, poor, and mostly minority population of the school it was essential for the teachers and mentors to be role models from the professional world. To do otherwise was a disservice to the students.
...But FIRST probably wants to reach urban kids, and this was speaking their language. So I'm down with it. Sorry you're not.
QED.
BRAVESaj25bd8
03-05-2016, 19:54
I have two views on this, which are contradictory to one another.
First, I don't think I would have used Will's words if I was in that situation. I think if I had young children, I would not have wanted them to hear those words. Will's passion spilled over and he cursed because that phrase was the best one he could think of to capture his emotions at the time. Whenever I hear children curse, it is just for the sake of cursing. Until people have the maturity to know the difference, I don't see a need to use profanity.
The other view I have is that while I would not have used Will's words, I don't think I have a right to tell him how to speak. Maybe I do, but why should he listen? He's an adult who understands actions have consequences. He seems to have done a decent job with his life up to this point without me handling his PR.
Finally, for the people talking about "kids in the audience", I see two sides. If you are the parent/guardian of a child who heard this, it's an unfortunate situation. Sorry for the uncomfortable conversation you may need to have with that child. If you are not a parent/guardian, please stop. You are not defending a group who cannot defend themselves, you are just picking a fight.
This conversation is such a train wreck.
Thanks for a thorough response. I agree that it is enormously difficult to reach the particular group you are concerned about with FIRST, really with many things. Like you, I've got ties to places and groups that are very divergent. My brother is an evangelical pastor in the Dallas area, and I worked as a Baptist minister for almost a decade before becoming a teacher. So I get it. Any large organization is going to struggle a lot when dealing with very different community standards.
You appear to feel you have a difficult situation with your team in the environment you teach in.
Not at all, I feel very supported.
dirtbikerxz
03-05-2016, 20:43
Agreed that people do that, but it sounds like you are saying that swearing on the internet (i.e. on Chief Delphi) is taboo, but swearing IRL (i.e. on stage at CMP) is not? My experience has been the opposite.
By will swearing in real life you could see that his expressions and other cues, and easily tell that he meant no offense.... you can't do that on the internet
rick.oliver
04-05-2016, 09:29
While I appreciated the passion which he intended to convey, I found the words offensive and totally inappropriate.
It is a reflection of the culture which exists and which FIRST is trying to influence. There was nothing gracious nor professional about the comment.
Hopefully, he was confronted about the disrespectful language and will learn and mature from the experience.
I doubt that we'll hear it, but I think that a formal apology would be appropriate.
Agreed that people do that, but it sounds like you are saying that swearing on the internet (i.e. on Chief Delphi) is taboo, but swearing IRL (i.e. on stage at CMP) is not? My experience has been the opposite.
No, the rule is on CD because this is the internet. You act with reckless abandon in front of a computer screen, whereas, people have reserve in real life.
marshall
04-05-2016, 09:41
No, the rule is on CD because this is the internet. You act with reckless abandon in front of a computer screen, whereas, people have reserve in real life.
It's true. Penny Arcade coined a term for it that is definitely not safe for this thread but those interested can use Google to look up "Penny Arcade Greater Internet Theory".
Anthony Galea
04-05-2016, 09:51
Just so everyone knows, Will.i.am has apologized today in a tweet.
https://twitter.com/iamwill/status/727794531219951617
dirtbikerxz
04-05-2016, 10:02
Just so everyone knows, Will.i.am has apologized today in a tweet.
https://twitter.com/iamwill/status/727794531219951617
I honestly wish he hadn't, but he does handle it gracefully. :D
rick.oliver
04-05-2016, 10:06
Just so everyone knows, Will.i.am has apologized today in a tweet.
https://twitter.com/iamwill/status/727794531219951617
Thanks for sharing. The very gracious, professional and courageous thing to do. Personally, very much appreciated. Well done, Will.i.am!
pfreivald
04-05-2016, 10:34
Nobody's going to be scarred for life having heard Sir Will.i.am Blackeye of Pease's coarse language during the robojoust. He shouldn't have said it, the language was inappropriate for the venue, the passion was genuine, and it probably won't happen again.
This is known as a "mistake," and we all make them. Usually quite a few of them a day, well more than we'd like to admit in public.
This particular mistake can be used as a teaching tool--I often tell my students that I don't care whether or not they swear, but I care whether or not they have the ability to turn it off when they need to [One of the larger employers hereabouts will fire you for cursing on the first offense, no matter how long you've worked there. And they're not even a customer service-heavy company]. Because it is my role as a teacher to help them learn the lessons that they need to learn in life, it is therefore inappropriate to swear _in my presence_ and will be treated as a violation of the rules. Not because I personally care--I really, really don't***--but because the skill (both in terms of knowing when not to swear, and being able to turn on the swear filter between brain and mouth) is a good one to learn.
When Sir Will.i.am exhibited a poor mastery level of this particular skill it became a teaching moment as well as an expression of passion, rather than just an expression of passion. It shouldn't have happened and steps should be taken to keep it from happening again, but when it comes to the seething reactions I've seen here and elsewhere, I'll just say the same thing I tell my team members and/or students when something unfortunate happens:
We're all going to die. But probably not today, and probably not from this. There are bigger things to worry about.
***[Keep in mind that the above is coming from a person who learned the "c" word from his mother at a very young age, dropped an "f" bomb at his kindergarten teacher during the first week of school, uses what some people consider swear words ("hell" and "d**m" and sometimes "pissed off") in his classroom without a second thought and has done so for many years because he doesn't consider them swear words, and on some very late nights due to minor injury or incredible frustration has sworn in front of his team--usually at a computer or robot, never at or about a person.]
It is possible to provide a counterpoint without attacking the person.
Perhaps in a non-election year we can remember how to do that.
That was exactly my point. The posts you're suggesting are attacks are merely counterpoints. It's shameful to suggest they aren't being civil because they offer a counterpoint.
TehSwegGey
04-05-2016, 11:34
Peace is a thing we appreciate, or at least we should. Some will take WILL.I.AM's comments for what they were to him [A Passionate Response] And others will take them for what they seem to others [An offscript remark filled with not-so-clean language]. Nonetheless, nothing we do here is going to change anyone's mind. To the build room!
Mr. Jeff
04-05-2016, 11:38
Peace my friends,
Thanks to everyone for their sacrifices in making this a better world.
Mr. Jeff, "Out"
My comments do not reflect the opinion of my team
techhelpbb
04-05-2016, 11:38
We're all going to die. But probably not today, and probably not from this. There are bigger things to worry about.
I plan on transplanting my consciousness into a bending unit.
So speak for yourselves.
http://forgifs.com/gallery/d/221273-2/Robot-attaches-arms.gif
Alan Anderson
04-05-2016, 12:48
Give me a break. Swearing is not culture. Anybody can swear. To attribute everything to culture is to allow far worse atrocities. We should hold ourselves to a higher standard.
The phrase under scrutiny is not swearing. It is not cursing. It is definitely vulgar, and could legitimately be considered obscene, but in the vernacular of linguistics it is emphatic rather than invective. The "f-bomb" label is not applicable to every use of the "f-word", and I do not believe it applies here.
The use of those words in their emphatic sense is certainly a cultural thing.
For the record, I never suggested that FIRST is a Christian Robotics organization nor that it should attempt to be one.
I'm actually not offended by the comment personally. But if we are going to talk about cultures, language, and inclusion, we need to talk about ALL cultures, languages, and inclusion.
In general, I'd rather allow all cultures to express themselves than quiet some cultures in order to avoid offending other cultures.
Andy Grady
04-05-2016, 14:30
Language is a tricky thing, my friends.
will.i.am is an artist. His job is to incite emotion through his words. He has made an effective career and millions of dollars knowing exactly what the power of the spoken word can do. When he spoke those words at championship, he knew exactly what he was doing...he was trying to incite emotion. He was successful. It was a moment for everyone there, and a good number of people got quite the chuckle out of it given the context of the situation. Of course, some people didn't appreciate it as well.
I don't have a problem with will.i.am saying what he did, in that moment, for the purposes he intended them to have.
Here is where my problem lies...the resonation.
I did not attend championships this year. I did not watch a single second of the webcast. I looked at scores on TBA here and there, but that was it. When all was said and done, I did not see a single quote in my Facebook feed about anything that Woodie said. I did not even know who the WFA winner was, I had to look it up! I saw exactly one post with a link about Dean's homework, that was it. I saw zero quotes from any of the speakers, to which I am sure there had to be someone who said something that meant something to somebody.
I did see will.i.am's comment...a lot. I saw videos, I saw hashtags, I saw memes, and today I am even seeing t-shirts of it.
My question to you is this. If you were trying to sell FIRST to potential sponsors or future teams, would you want to use what has apparently become FIRST's newest catch phrase to woo them to the program?
Ladies and Gentleman, this phrase is the indicator of what the lasting impression of the 25th anniversary championship of FIRST was. Why? Because we live in a world where social media is king, and a message of that magnitude carries like wildfire.
My point is, let the moment be the moment. Let all of those people who were in attendance take it for what it was, an expression meant to elicit emotion. Going forward, however, think hard about the message that YOU want to carry to future generations, sponsors, and media.
Instead of a catch phrase laced with a little profanity, maybe we should be highlighting the success stories of thousands upon thousands of products of FIRST on our t-shirts.
pmangels17
04-05-2016, 15:26
-snip-
When all was said and done, I did not see a single quote in my Facebook feed about anything that Woodie said. I did not even know who the WFA winner was, I had to look it up! I saw exactly one post with a link about Dean's homework, that was it.
-snip
I think I have an idea why this might be the case. When I first heard Dean and Woodie speak, as a freshman in high school, I was really impressed with what they had to say. I felt empowered, I felt that what I was doing through FIRST could make a difference in my life and the lives others, and I still hold this sentiment to be true today. However, after a few years, it seems like when they speak, they don't say anything that they haven't said before.
Nobody quotes the newest speech by Dean or Woodie because we heard the same words the last time they spoke. This isn't supposed to be a dig at them, it is just a consequence of them speaking at FIRST events for 25+ years. I think the reason that Will.I.Am's words resonate so loudly with the community is that they offer a fresh take from a different perspective, but Will.I.Am and Dean/Woodie are talking about the same thing, a program that they are obviously very passionate about.
-snip-
My point is, let the moment be the moment. Let all of those people who were in attendance take it for what it was, an expression meant to elicit emotion. Going forward, however, think hard about the message that YOU want to carry to future generations, sponsors, and media.
Instead of a catch phrase laced with a little profanity, maybe we should be highlighting the success stories of thousands upon thousands of products of FIRST on our t-shirts.
-snip
Andy, you're right, and I haven't heard any recent Woodie or Dean quotes either. This is where I think we can focus our efforts as a community. Woodie and Dean will continue to make great speeches, and that is great. If it's the first or second time you've heard them speak, then you'll be hearing something new. But if we want to keep the stories we tell fresh, new, and exciting (something somebody will quote on Facebook, for example), then we need to make a concerted effort to find new perspectives on FIRST from all members of our community. We need to hear personal stories of inspiration, triumph, and even sometimes failure. And we need to hear it from everyone; Dean, Woodie, Frank, students, mentors, parents, volunteers, spectators, and everyone who has been involved in or exposed to FIRST.
Some of the best stories I've heard about FIRST are ones where a parent was moved to tears when she saw her typically-introverted son dancing with all the mascots at competition, being outgoing and more expressive than she had ever seen, or when a student who had no academic drive decides that a STEM career might be for them (And there are many more). We all have heard great stories about how FIRST has changed lives, and we all have our own to share.
If we want to continue to spread the message of FIRST, then we need to continue to seek out and highlight the countless wonderful stories and moments that FIRST makes happen, and Will.I.Am's visceral, candid, and passionate comment on Einstein is just one of these fantastic, inspiring moments.
The phrase under scrutiny is not swearing. It is not cursing. It is definitely vulgar, and could legitimately be considered obscene, but in the vernacular of linguistics it is emphatic rather than invective. The "f-bomb" label is not applicable to every use of the "f-word", and I do not believe it applies here.
The use of those words in their emphatic sense is certainly a cultural thing.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=swearing
Swearing - the use of offensive language.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profanity
Types of Swearing:
Abusive swearing
Cathartic swearing
Dysphemistic swearing
Emphatic swearing
Idiomatic swearing
Many people clearly find his language offensive. I doubt most parents or teachers would agree 'The "f-bomb" label is not applicable to every use of the "f-word".'
Many people clearly find his language offensive. I doubt most parents or teachers would agree 'The "f-bomb" label is not applicable to every use of the "f-word".'
I think the argument that was made is that applying this label in all situations is incorrect, not that it is common for people to use critical thinking skills to judge whether or not it is an "f-bomb" versus just a use of the "f-word".
As an example of using this critical thinking, in my AP Language class in high school I was asked to read and analyze George S. Patton's speech to the Third Army. If you haven't read it, it include many words that would be considered obscene in a majority of contexts. If you take it for what it is though, which is a speech to soldiers on the day before D-Day, the swearing becomes less of an affront and more of a tool for emphasis. It's hard to communicate the same passion through a toned-down phrase when you consider the original version of "We're going to murder those lousy Hun *censored* by the bushel-*censored*-basket." (that sentence actually takes the cake for the most colorful sentence I've ever included in an academic paper)
Likewise it becomes difficult for someone in the position of will-i-am to make a statement that carries the same weight if he toned it down to, "This stuff is dope" or, "I find this very interesting". His passion for what the teams are doing carries over into the phrasing that he chose, and that he very likely chose very carefully beforehand for maximum effect.
Some people may view it as inappropriate in an event that is billed as family friendly, but the honest truth is that I can guarantee every high school student in that building has heard far worse than that every day of their high school career. They've heard those same words, directed at others with intent to hurt and wound. They've heard every racial slur in the book, along with euphemisms for every possible sexual orientation, used to attack and demean their classmates. This is not one of those cases. will-i-am is not using these words in a negative connotation. Quite the opposite is true, because he is actually using them to provide emphasis for the high regard in which he hold the program.
Perhaps it wasn't the best venue for his statement (because there are many younger children I'm sure who attend these matches), but it isn't anything hateful or aggressive that should be reacted to in a negative manner. Those young children will grow up and hear those words used every day as soon as they reach middle school, and they'll learn that there are appropriate uses of swearing (to provide emphasis to a passionate positive statement) and inappropriate uses of swearing (to provide emphasis to a negative statement or to attack/demean/belittle others). I'm confident that when they reach an age of maturity they will be able to look back upon will-i-am's statement and realize that it is an example of an appropriate use of swearing that came at a possibly less-than-ideal time.
To me the bottom line is this: If you compare will-i-am's use of "This *censored* is mother*censored* dope" to the daily usage of and exposure to those same words that a vast majority of high school students experience on a daily basis, it's downright tame. He's not attacking anyone. He's not belittling or demeaning others. He's complimenting something he is passionate for in a sincere manner, in that he isn't trying to carefully phrase it to avoid offending people who cannot look beyond the words to find the meaning.
I did not attend championships this year. I did not watch a single second of the webcast. I looked at scores on TBA here and there, but that was it. When all was said and done, I did not see a single quote in my Facebook feed about anything that Woodie said. I did not even know who the WFA winner was, I had to look it up! I saw exactly one post with a link about Dean's homework, that was it. I saw zero quotes from any of the speakers, to which I am sure there had to be someone who said something that meant something to somebody.
I did see will.i.am's comment...a lot. I saw videos, I saw hashtags, I saw memes, and today I am even seeing t-shirts of it.
My question to you is this. If you were trying to sell FIRST to potential sponsors or future teams, would you want to use what has apparently become FIRST's newest catch phrase to woo them to the program?.
Dean is the most boring public speaker on the planet. That's the sad reality. He starts talking and thousands of people immediately and instinctively tune out. His message might be good, but if nobody is awake to hear it, did it happen?
I can't even remember if Woodie talked, but he at least has some charisma. As someone else mentioned above, the message rarely changes though. Plus those speeches came at the tail end of a very long and exhausting day. Many (most?) people had already left, given that Einstein was over.
Of course you're not going to take Will.i.am's statements to a prospective sponsor and be like "Yo, did you know TSIMFD?". This situation you've constructed is a total straw man. Anyone with half a brain knows that context and audience are important and isn't going to present that quote.
On the other hand, if the students can go to their non robotics friends and classmates and tell them that will.i.am thought what they do is so cool that he dropped a F bomb in front of 20,000 people, maybe those people will start to think robots are cool too.
I might be overruled, but "TSIMFD Robotics" might just be the name of our FLL Jr team next year.
Andy Grady
05-05-2016, 15:34
On the other hand, if the students can go to their non robotics friends and classmates and tell them that will.i.am thought what they do is so cool that he dropped a F bomb in front of 20,000 people, maybe those people will start to think robots are cool too.
If will.i.am dropping an F-Bomb in front of 20,000 students is what will make people think that robotics are cool, we are doing something seriously wrong here.
Akash Rastogi
05-05-2016, 15:44
If will.i.am dropping an F-Bomb in front of 20,000 students is what will make people think that robotics are cool, we are doing something seriously wrong here.
I don't think we are doing anything wrong, Cory is being realistic. If FIRST wants to appeal to everyone, FIRST needs to be more down to earth and realistic about relating to their audience. Also, can people please stop referring to mother$@#$@#$@#$@#in as the f-bomb? It was in such a unique context, it really isn't the same as many of you are implying.
techhelpbb
05-05-2016, 15:50
As a CSA I've heard more F-bombs in those pits, and have quietly asked people to reconsider their language, at moments than I can count and -LONG- before now.
The only reason this seems to have this sort of visibility is because Will.I.AM did it where everyone could hear it.
So people shouldn't throw stones in glass houses. Will is not setting a trend that didn't have legs already. If he had set a new word into the language none of you would likely have even realized it because a new profane or obscene word wouldn't be recognizable without an explanation. NARF!
That doesn't mean you can't object to it, but again, FIRST should never be judged so myopically.
If will.i.am dropping an F-Bomb in front of 20,000 students is what will make people think that robotics are cool, we are doing something seriously wrong here.
You're free to act high and mighty and look down your nose at everyone who disagrees with you, but the reality is that kids loved that moment. It was a genuine expression of passion by someone in pop culture, which is easier to relate to than some old guys standing on stage talking in platitudes.
You can't want people from "outside the tent" to come join the FIRST family and then get pissed when they think TSIMFD...
If will.i.am dropping an F-Bomb in front of 20,000 students is what will make people think that robotics are cool, we are doing something seriously wrong here.
That's fine that it doesn't appeal to you, because you aren't the target audience (no offense). The target audience is high school students who often times use language like that every day, and would otherwise be discouraged from joining robotics by the seemingly rigid formality of it all. I think it does an excellent job of getting those people engaged without offending more than a very small minority of the current population, and likely then not enough to get them to leave FIRST entirely.
Chris Hibner
05-05-2016, 16:01
Ugh - further evidence that I'm becoming an old fart. People talking about Andy Grady (who was a student when I started in FIRST) like he's an old man, must make me ancient. Man, it feels like I was a veteran young guy just a few years ago.
Wait a minute, is it okay for me to say fart?
wireties
05-05-2016, 17:20
I understand that the comment was made in a unique moment and addressing a particular audience. Personally I do not think it was strictly necessary but NBD. One can reach students of any age without such language.
I have another query. Nobody says father-#$%^&(. Will.I.Am's modifier to the f-bomb could be interpreted as demeaning to women. Do any female students/teachers/sponsors feel that way?
Will was also careful to say "Palestine" and not "Israel". Should we start another thread?
TIA
mman1506
05-05-2016, 18:14
I understand that the comment was made in a unique moment and addressing a particular audience. Personally I do not think it was strictly necessary but NBD. One can reach students of any age without such language.
I have another query. Nobody says father-#$%^&(. Will.I.Am's modifier to the f-bomb could be interpreted as demeaning to women. Do any female students/teachers/sponsors feel that way?
Will was also careful to say "Palestine" and not "Israel". Should we start another thread?
TIA
He obviously didn't use the word as an insult so I wouldn't say his use was demeaning to woman.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Katie_UPS
05-05-2016, 18:45
Nobody says father-#$%^&(. Will.I.Am's modifier to the f-bomb could be interpreted as demeaning to women. Do any female students/teachers/sponsors feel that way?
I always found it interesting/frustrating the difference between "mom jokes" and "dad jokes."
At large, the language we use is problematic and can be casually sexist and is not cool/okay.
In my opinion and I definitely don't speak for others, Will's use of the word wasn't actively demeaning to women. The widespread use of the word reflects problematic attitudes towards women in our society and I'm in no way a fan of that... but the literal meaning of the phrase is pretty much lost and now it's just a decorative word.
Actual mothers might have a different opinion (and rightfully so), but the problem you bring up is a great conversation about how casual sexism pops up in our language - more of a cultural problem and less of an individual's.
MooreteP
05-05-2016, 19:07
Will was also careful to say "Palestine" and not "Israel". Should we start another thread?
Where did you get this from?
2:32 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf-HWN6NYu4)
He mentions BOTH Israel & Palestine.
Why are you trying to stir up this pot even more?
PayneTrain
05-05-2016, 19:34
Where did you get this from?
2:32 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf-HWN6NYu4)
He mentions BOTH Israel & Palestine.
Why are you trying to stir up this pot even more?
You can't prove that will.I.am isn't an anti-Semite.
You also can't prove that you're not the zodiac killer and/or Ted Cruz. Bake him away, toys!
wireties
05-05-2016, 19:55
Where did you get this from?
2:32 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf-HWN6NYu4)
He mentions BOTH Israel & Palestine.
Why are you trying to stir up this pot even more?
My apologies - when he used "Israel" I missed it. In the moment, the use of "Palestine" seemed a careful choice of words. Just wondering why...
Kevin Ray
05-05-2016, 20:00
Now, this isn't to say this should be a regular thing; it probably shouldn't be our forward facing catch phrase, we shouldn't be singing it to sponsors, making team chants about it, etc. It can't become a huge meme like water games or corndogs that every 14 year old parrots to their grandmother (and I'm sure it will get out of hand, unfortunately). I really understand the points people like Andy Grady have been making about the speech and I don't disagree with them. But I genuinely appreciated such a refreshingly honest moment from this man, and I'm glad he was able to convey his awe and inspiration sincerely.
+1 I think that his statement was one of, if not the most powerful statement I've heard off the cuff any where, any time. He was very obviously overwhelmed with emotion after mentioning that he had been to all of the other music awards and events--and this beats them all.
All that being said, I feel that Chris is me is 110% correct. It was only powerful in context at that moment in time. Tee shirting or bumper stickering the statement will be only a cheap excuse for a gratuitous foul language op. Constantly using the phrase because he said it, will diminish its value. I think that leaving it in the moment will give us powerful memories
One of our team members thought that a tee shirt would be cool. Yeah, those words taken completely out of context will have the same effect of walking naked through a church full of elderly people and expecting them to appreciate the beauty of the human form.
The other Gabe
05-05-2016, 20:00
my goodness, why are y'all still arguing?
my goodness, why are y'all still arguing?
You must be new here. Congratulations on the new account!
dirtbikerxz
05-05-2016, 20:31
my goodness, why are y'all still arguing?
I was thinking of sayin this.....
You must be new here. Congratulations on the new account!
But then i realized I would get that^^^^^^^^^^ :P :D
Would you keep your kids home from robotics because someone might say a bad word over the PA, or their stuff might get stolen (this really happened but getting infinitesimal attention compared to the former)
This thread is one of the most entertaining I've ever seen! Is it that you want to prolong children's innocence? If so you better not let them go to a build session or tour the pits. Cover their ears!
Finish the basement apartment and never let them get a job lest their boss might cuss at them, auuuugh.
ATannahill
05-05-2016, 21:16
I think that his actions have had an impact. I have noticed a larger amount of $@#$@#$@#$@#s on CD, along with the use of #TSIMFD and #TSINMFD. I think this is the kind of activity people have been wanting to avoid. That is how CD has changed, I imagine that in team communication or human interaction or other forms of communication the language has also devolved.
I agree with what many people have said, it is great that he had strong feelings and it might have been great that it was shown to the VIPs in attendance, but it was a use of inappropriate language. We need to restore ourselves to our normal decorum and remember this moment with fond memories. It should not set the standard on how we behave.
3175leheh
07-05-2016, 20:23
I agree wholeheartedly. It was definitely said with good intent, but it's hard to know how people will react or take something out of context when you say something, especially when on such a big platform as that.
DonRotolo
07-05-2016, 20:59
Everyone is an idiot. Including me.
There, I said something. Was it offensive? Yes, to some, no to others.
Some cool dude said something too.
The point is, we all have our way of communicating. Did you get the message that was being sent?
People are exposed to this language on a daily basis. (Then again, I do go to school in a city)
dirtbikerxz
07-05-2016, 22:33
Would you keep your kids home from robotics because someone might say a bad word over the PA, or their stuff might get stolen (this really happened but getting infinitesimal attention compared to the former)
This thread is one of the most entertaining I've ever seen! Is it that you want to prolong children's innocence? If so you better not let them go to a build session or tour the pits. Cover their ears!
HA, totally agree. Please don't let your kid who never heard any curse words tour the pits. It's not good influence for them.
And ya, it sucks that stuff gets stolen, one of our mentors lost an ipad a few years back. But honestly all I can say is, don't be stupid. Don't leave your stuff lying around un protected. There is nothing we can do to change the world and have no bad people....
People are exposed to this language on a daily basis. (Then again, I do go to school in a city)
This is what confuses me most about the argument against it. He didn't expose anyone to anything they don't already hear on a daily/near-daily basis anyways. He wasn't attacking or demeaning anyone. He just was passionate and communicated that passion through language that - like it or not - is part of the daily lexicon of many people already.
People are exposed to this language on a daily basis. (Then again, I do go to school in a city)
This is what confuses me most about the argument against it. He didn't expose anyone to anything they don't already hear on a daily/near-daily basis anyways. He wasn't attacking or demeaning anyone. He just was passionate and communicated that passion through language that - like it or not - is part of the daily lexicon of many people already.
While I agree with this for the most part, the problem that arises is both the FLL kids as well as it's not language you would expect in a more "formal" environment of an awards ceremony that you would expect.
I do agree with the message though. Delivery, however, probably could have used some work.
Page 15. Never change, CD.
techhelpbb
08-05-2016, 09:54
Page 15. Never change, CD.
Wonders if CD topics scale with usage of offending terms or merely as a resource leak?
Kidding....
Ringo5tarr
11-05-2016, 10:28
Anyone remember when a former US president was at Champs? Maybe we should get back to that type of VIP instead of these "music" clowns.
Does anyone remember when we had competitions in high schools? Maybe we should go back to that type of competition instead of having these "political" pigs.
Akash Rastogi
11-05-2016, 14:32
Does anyone remember when we had competitions in high schools? Maybe we should go back to that type of competition instead of having these "political" pigs.
It's over...go home.
http://i.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2015/IchfTl.gif
suriously
13-05-2016, 08:51
I'm waiting for the t-shirt/button.
T-shirts with #TSIMFD are available here (http://www.usfirstyle.com/#!shop/co68). If you use the coupon code TSIMFD you can get 10% off your entire order.:D
This is what confuses me most about the argument against it. He didn't expose anyone to anything they don't already hear on a daily/near-daily basis anyways.
I'll bet a paycheck that you are mistaken.
You need to get out more ;) i if you think everyone (or everyone who was there) hears that those particular words on a daily/near-daily basis.
It's a simple fact that they don't. Not even close. I don't know what the percentage would be, and I'm not saying that the percentage is low, but it's plenty far away from 100%
Many people clearly find his language offensive. I doubt most parents or teachers would agree 'The "f-bomb" label is not applicable to every use of the "f-word".'
I am astounded by your opinion about that. I know my life/experiences have not exposed me to everything the world has to offer, but an overwhelming number of the parents and teachers I have gotten to know so far, would most definitely not approve. I would love to have some real data to replace our two opinions. Do you have any?
Blake
dirtbikerxz
14-05-2016, 09:59
http://meowcheese.com/sites/meowcheese.com/files/images/2008/04/stop-posting.jpg
techhelpbb
14-05-2016, 11:07
Hey FIRST was right:
It is not about the robot!
It is about Will's fleeting case of foul language.
Plenty of people said it mattered here.
Plenty of people said it was inconsequential.
If it is inconsequential let's drop this and focus on the kids' futures.
If it matters and you really can not undo this: what more for the kids can you do by continuing?
I get part of success is maintaining an image suitable: but part of success is being realistic about what you can do.
https://m.popkey.co/71dd7c/6GNNl_f-maxage-0.gif
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