2016 IRI - Rule Changes and Reasoning

[Chris Fultz]

Below are the 2016 IRI Rule Changes / Modifications. The goals of the changes was to minimize the impact on robot designed from any changes, assure a rapid flow of matches, increase the challenge for teams and adjust a few areas.

We are posting this now so that teams are aware before confirming their attendance at the 2016 IRI.

1. 3.1.4 Tower Strength = 12 for all matches.

2. 5.5.10 - In QUALIFICATIONS - Defenses will be randomly selected / placed per the details below. The placement will be defined in advance and will change every 10-12 matches to match the robot cycles. There will be no Audience Selection of Defenses.
A. Cheval de Frise
B. Ramparts or Moat
C. Sally Port
D. Rough Terrain or Rock Wall
E. Low Bar (Always in play and in position 1.)

3. 5.5.10 - In ELIMINATIONS - Defenses will be selected by the opposing alliance (Category and Placement, except Low Bar) per the categories below. There will be no Audience Selection of Defenses.
A. Cheval de Frise
B. Ramparts or Moat
C. Sally Port
D. Rough Terrain or Rock Wall

4. G21 Revision - A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing ROBOTS who are in contact with the carpet in the SECRET PASSAGE, regardless of who initiates the contact.

5. G38 Clarification - Driving over or getting stuck on a boulder while holding another bolder will not be a violation of G38.

6. 3.1.3 No change to defense crossings for RP.

7. R5 A +5 pound weight allowance is provided. There is no formal inspection, however if a referee questions a robot weight it will be verified.

8. 5.4.1 - Draft Order 1-8, 1-8, 8-1. Alliances select their own backup. No requirement for any robot on an alliance to play.

9. G13 Exception – G13 Applies, however, AFTER a robot has fully crossed a defense and returned to the midline, a robot may cross the midline with no foul and contact with an opposing alliance robot will not be an additional foul.

10. 5.4.4 - In Eliminations, up to THREE tied MATCH SCORES between two alliances will be re-played. If the 4th re-play results in an additional tied MATCH SCORE, the published FIRST tie-breakers will be used.

[Chris Fultz]

REASONING -

1. Reflect the expected level of play and increase the challenge of receiving the RP.

2. The community has settled on these selections a high percentage of the time. This change reduces the field reset crew work. This change enables a 6 minute cycle time to provide 9 matches per team. Each team will play each set-up one time before they change (except where a cycle is split).Many teams will have limited scouting crews. The Portcullis has been removed by FIRST. The drawbridge was ignored by most teams.

3. This adds to the strategy options for eliminations and minimizes the changes to the original game play.

4. This removes the incentive to just go touch an opposing robot.

5. Getting stuck is enough of a penalty to pay.

6. Changes in number of crossings or number of defenses we too much impact on the original game and robots designed to play it.

7. This allows for repairs or new systems, while maintaining a safe robot weight limit.

8. Well, we always do this.

9. This encourages teams to develop / try a 2 boulder AUTON or return to mid-field without fear of major fouls.

10. This allows teams to play for the win, but also sets a limit for "how many times"

[bdaroz]

10. 5.4.4 - In Eliminations, up to THREE tied MATCH SCORES between two alliances will be re-played. If the 4th re-play results in an additional tied MATCH SCORE, the published FIRST tie-breakers will be used.

I read this twice but this might warrant a confirmation/clarification...

You mean this to say: "... the published FRC tie-breakers will be used on the 4th re-play" as opposed to "... the published FIRST match tie-breakers will be used."

Yeah, I'm probably lawyering this a bit, but in case anyone else read it the way I did....

[rtfgnow]

I read this twice but this might warrant a confirmation/clarification...

You mean this to say: "... the published FRC tie-breakers will be used on the 4th re-play" as opposed to "... the published FIRST match tie-breakers will be used."

Yeah, I'm probably lawyering this a bit, but in case anyone else read it the way I did....
I think it is correct because the first three tied matches are mention in the first sentence. The second sentence only mentions one match for the tie-breakers to be used in.

I can see how it might require a second read to be clear.

[Chris Fultz]

If three matches end in a tie match score, we will play one more match.

If that one also ends in a tie match score, then we will go to the published tiebreakers to determine the winner.

There are some many potential implementations of this that we will publish a list of "if this happens ..." so it is clear before that happens.

[AllenGregoryIV]

I forgot the +5lb rule for TRI, I'll have to update it.

[Jack S.]

The G13 Exception is interesting, we could see some deviation from the "standard" 2-ball routines that have so far been shown. It should also make non-low bar 2 ball routines more common. Smart way of encouraging more auto play IMO.

[XaulZan11]

The G13 Exception is interesting, we could see some deviation from the "standard" 2-ball routines that have so far been shown. It should also make non-low bar 2 ball routines more common. Smart way of encouraging more auto play IMO.

Wonder if it result in fewer successful 2 ball autos though, given how easy it will be to defend them.

[GKrotkov]

I have to say, I'm sad to see the drawbridge go. I entirely understand the portcullis, and I can see why IRI did away with the drawbridge. I did really love the extra strategic element that the drawbridge brought when a team that understood how to use it played it well. Messing with vision and pulling it off is an exciting nuance that Stronghold really benefitted from.

On that note, why is the rough terrain still around? At events I went to the rough terrain only a bit more used than the drawbridge (if that). If the drawbridge is going because it was unused, why not the rough terrain?

Perhaps I misinterpreting what Mr. Fultz said: "the drawbridge was ignored by most teams"? I thought that it meant that teams didn't select it much, but I could see how it could mean that teams didn't cross it much.

[Billfred]

2. 5.5.10 - In QUALIFICATIONS - Defenses will be randomly selected / placed per the details below. The placement will be defined in advance and will change every 10-12 matches to match the robot cycles. There will be no Audience Selection of Defenses.
A. Cheval de Frise
B. Ramparts or Moat
C. Sally Port
D. Rough Terrain or Rock Wall
E. Low Bar (Always in play and in position 1.)

3. 5.5.10 - In ELIMINATIONS - Defenses will be selected by the opposing alliance (Category and Placement, except Low Bar) per the categories below. There will be no Audience Selection of Defenses.
A. Cheval de Frise
B. Ramparts or Moat
C. Sally Port
D. Rough Terrain or Rock Wall

What happens when the teams decide to go full Palmetto* and break all the available copies of the Cheval de Frise?

*Contrary to popular memes, you should always go full Palmetto.

[Richard Wallace]

What happens when the teams decide to go full Palmetto* and break all the available copies of the Cheval de Frise?

*Contrary to popular memes, you should always go full Palmetto.

Sometime after Week 0.5, many teams improved their CDF autons. Now most of them are considerably more effective than simple "ramming speed". ;)

[ratdude747]

What happens when the teams decide to go full Palmetto* and break all the available copies of the Cheval de Frise?

*Contrary to popular memes, you should always go full Palmetto.

Since then they've made them beeifer. I know the first change was swapping from countersunk to counterboared panels. There may have been a second change. Knock on virtual wood, but in Indiana (and on Carson field for that matter) I don't remember any breaking (and the defunct countersunk ones being used as doorstops).

[Edxu]

I have to say, I'm sad to see the drawbridge go. I entirely understand the portcullis, and I can see why IRI did away with the drawbridge. I did really love the extra strategic element that the drawbridge brought when a team that understood how to use it played it well. Messing with vision and pulling it off is an exciting nuance that Stronghold really benefitted from.

On that note, why is the rough terrain still around? At events I went to the rough terrain only a bit more used than the drawbridge (if that). If the drawbridge is going because it was unused, why not the rough terrain?

Perhaps I misinterpreting what Mr. Fultz said: "the drawbridge was ignored by most teams"? I thought that it meant that teams didn't select it much, but I could see how it could mean that teams didn't cross it much.

I'm sure that the IRI committee put a lot of time into this decision. While it does negatively affect a few teams who planned for their robots to manipulate the drawbridge, I'm sure that the decision was made in the interest of the competitiveness of IRI itself.

While the Drawbridge may not look as obstructive from the stands, in many scenarios the Drawbridge is actually more detrimental to your OWN alliance than it is for the opposing alliance, as placing it in position 2 blocks your left-side member from seeing the left side goal, placing it in 3 blocks your own view of the middle goal, placing it in 4 blocks part of the right side goal and placing it in 5 entirely blocks view of the right-side goal from the right driver station.

Also the main difference between the Drawbridge and the Rough Terrain imo is that very few teams could justify putting a drawbridge anywhere on the field that would benefit their own alliance, while basically every team was able to cross the Rough Terrain.

[Chris is me]

I'm sure that the IRI committee put a lot of time into this decision. While it does negatively affect a few teams who planned for their robots to manipulate the drawbridge, I'm sure that the decision was made in the interest of the competitiveness of IRI itself.

While the Drawbridge may not look as obstructive from the stands, in many scenarios the Drawbridge is actually more detrimental to your OWN alliance than it is for the opposing alliance, as placing it in position 2 blocks your left-side member from seeing the left side goal, placing it in 3 blocks your own view of the middle goal, placing it in 4 blocks part of the right side goal and placing it in 5 entirely blocks view of the right-side goal from the right driver station.

Also the main difference between the Drawbridge and the Rough Terrain imo is that very few teams could justify putting a drawbridge anywhere on the field that would benefit their own alliance, while basically every team was able to cross the Rough Terrain.

To be quite honest, the only people I've ever heard say the Drawbridge adds to the depth and excitement of the game are people who have never had to play a match behind one. The drawbridge was a suicide pact - you torched your own visibility on a prayer that it messed up the opponent's visibility more. But it's closer to you than them, so it blocks more of your vision, and it blocks a significant chunk of the midfield. This is a good change.

[Billfred]

Sometime after Week 0.5, many teams improved their CDF autons. Now most of them are considerably more effective than simple "ramming speed". ;)

Since then they've made them beeifer. I know the first change was swapping from countersunk to counterboared panels. There may have been a second change. Knock on virtual wood, but in Indiana (and on Carson field for that matter) I don't remember any breaking (and the defunct countersunk ones being used as doorstops).

They did identify the root cause of much of the Palmetto breakage, but that doesn't mean breakages didn't happen later in the season. And when your alternative (https://twitter.com/WmLeverette/status/703242439511908352) is gone, I figure it's worth asking. :)

[frcguy]

While the Drawbridge may not look as obstructive from the stands, in many scenarios the Drawbridge is actually more detrimental to your OWN alliance than it is for the opposing alliance, as placing it in position 2 blocks your left-side member from seeing the left side goal, placing it in 3 blocks your own view of the middle goal, placing it in 4 blocks part of the right side goal and placing it in 5 entirely blocks view of the right-side goal from the right driver station..

To be quite honest, the only people I've ever heard say the Drawbridge adds to the depth and excitement of the game are people who have never had to play a match behind one. The drawbridge was a suicide pact - you torched your own visibility on a prayer that it messed up the opponent's visibility more. But it's closer to you than them, so it blocks more of your vision, and it blocks a significant chunk of the midfield. This is a good change.

Can't agree with you too more. We only selected the drawbridge once this season because the opposing alliance could do every defense and we used it to slow down their breach. Playing matches with the drawbridge on either side really sucked, and even with a camera pole at the maximum legal height we had huge visibility issues going over it.

[ratdude747]

They did identify the root cause of much of the Palmetto breakage, but that doesn't mean breakages didn't happen later in the season. And when your alternative (https://twitter.com/WmLeverette/status/703242439511908352) is gone, I figure it's worth asking. :)

Yeah, my point was more along the lines of "better", not "perfect". Obviously I wasn't clear enough... To be fair the play style was somewhat unique in IN (compared to other areas) which may explain our lack of panel breakage.

We did break a couple batter dividers though (1 in Indiana, 1 on Carson) and had various light string short-outs (which I'm not going to comment on further), so it wasn't field repair utopia. You can't win them all...

[GKrotkov]

To be quite honest, the only people I've ever heard say the Drawbridge adds to the depth and excitement of the game are people who have never had to play a match behind one.

While it is true, that I have never played a match as the drive crew, I have been pretty involved with my team's defense selections and general strategy throughout the year. I've discussed our use of the drawbridge often with my drive coach, driver, operator, and human player, and always am sure to get consensus from everyone behind the glass (including alliance partners) before placing a drawbridge. I'll get back to you on whether my drive crew agrees with my opinion of the drawbridge in a little bit.

And to Edxu, yes, I'm aware that the drawbridge is more limiting to your own vision than to your opponents. However, I do believe that it can be used effectively - most commonly in position 4. For example, take a look at MAR Champs Quarterfinal 3, Match 1. (http://www.thebluealliance.com/match/2016mrcmp_qf3m1) This was, honestly, not a match that the blue alliance would have won had the drawbridge not been in such a place that 5401 had difficulty placing their hooks and thus lost their scale. That match was won by less than 10 points. Note that 5401 got their scale successfully in both of the other quarterfinal matches, neither of which had the drawbridge. Furthermore, since we were in a position that we could play around the drawbridge (708 was on the right, and we intended them to focus on low bar-low goal) then the damage to our alliance is at least minimized. Lastly, this works to nearly guarantee that the opponents will not cross at least one defense - a ∆10 for your alliance if they have teams who will solo-damage the sally port from behind. It all comes down to whether you expect to be hurt by the drawbridge for more than 10, possibly 20 points.

Yes, the Drawbridge should be used carefully and thoughtfully, but I would disagree with a sentiment it's never the right answer.

(At this point, I've certainly departed from IRI discussion - my bad.)

[pandamonium]

4. G21 Revision - A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing ROBOTS who are in contact with the carpet in the SECRET PASSAGE, regardless of who initiates the contact.

4. This removes the incentive to just go touch an opposing robot.


Can you clarify how this removes the incentive? or perhaps I am just missing something

[EricH]

Lastly, this works to nearly guarantee that the opponents will not cross at least one defense - a ∆10 for your alliance if they have teams who will solo-damage the sally port from behind. It all comes down to whether you expect to be hurt by the drawbridge for more than 10, possibly 20 points.

Yes, the Drawbridge should be used carefully and thoughtfully, but I would disagree with a sentiment it's never the right answer.

Just a note: I agree that the drawbridge can be useful, in the right scenario.

But it's really fun to watch that "near guarantee" turn into 10 auto points, plus an auto shot on the high goal (which probably drops for another 10), and then another 5 crossing points. (1197 built to be able to run a solo drawbridge. Figured if we couldn't do low bar, we needed to get a breach some other way if we needed to.)

[Chris Fultz]

Can you clarify how this removes the incentive? or perhaps I am just missing something

If Blue robot is in Red secret passage, a Red can still be fully in the courtyard and initiate contact to create the foul. This change says Red must be touching the secret passage carpet for the foul to occur. It reduces the incentive because it requires more time and movement into the secret passage and not just a quick tap.

[notmattlythgoe]

Just a note: I agree that the drawbridge can be useful, in the right scenario.

But it's really fun to watch that "near guarantee" turn into 10 auto points, plus an auto shot on the high goal (which probably drops for another 10), and then another 5 crossing points. (1197 built to be able to run a solo drawbridge. Figured if we couldn't do low bar, we needed to get a breach some other way if we needed to.)

I agree with this and is exactly why the Rumble in the Roads most likely will not be playing either the Sallyport or the Drawbridge. While both could be used effectively to strategically block LOS, nothing is entertaining about watching a robot drive around uselessly because the driver can't see.

In my opinion, the Drawbridge and Sallyport added nothing positive to the game.

PS Thanks to the IRI crew for the rules posting, we will be looking at these to see if there are any we want to steal for the Rumble in the Roads.

[Collin Fultz]

Perhaps I misinterpreting what Mr. Fultz said: "the drawbridge was ignored by most teams"? I thought that it meant that teams didn't select it much, but I could see how it could mean that teams didn't cross it much.

It's both. At Champs, both in Qual and Playoff Matches, the Sally Port was used in 86% of matches. The Drawbridge was crossed in 7% of matches where it was used.*

This, added with the reduction in visibility (and impact to game play) that others have mentioned, were the main drivers.

*All data pulled from The Blue Alliance Insights page for each field. A huge thanks to the crew that manage that site and to FIRST for making the data available this year!

[TheMagicPenguin]

I think the purpose of the drawbridge in this years game was to block visability. It added another design challenge to over come. We had thee cameras on our bot this year so we could see past the denfenses as easier. Other teams had poles sticking up on their robots while some had a camra from the driver station. There where a lot if of ways to design for the challenge.

I don't think it was poor game design. In fact I believe it was a great game design choice because it added an extra challenge that only the best of the best could over come.

[tstew]

10. 5.4.4 - In Eliminations, up to THREE tied MATCH SCORES between two alliances will be re-played. If the 4th re-play results in an additional tied MATCH SCORE, the published FIRST tie-breakers will be used.
I have a few questions in understanding how this will work.

To make sure I am understanding this correctly could you confirm that the scenario below is correct.
Match #1 - Tied (tied match #1)
Match #2 - Red wins
Match #3 - Tied (tied match #2)
Match #4 - Blue wins
Match #5 - Tied (tied match #3)
Match #6 - Tied (tied match #4, FIRST tie-breakers will be used)


How will these extra tiebreaker matches fit into the playoff schedule with the other matches?

Which tied match will be used to calculate FIRST tie-breakers?

[Chris Fultz]

I have a few questions in understanding how this will work.

To make sure I am understanding this correctly could you confirm that the scenario below is correct.


How will these extra tiebreaker matches fit into the playoff schedule with the other matches?

Which tied match will be used to calculate FIRST tie-breakers?

In your scenario, Match 6 would be used to calculate the tie-breaker.

We are working on a listing to capture the scenarios we can think of and how they would be decided. Hopefully not needed, but we want to have it defined in advance.

[logank013]

REASONING -
2. The Portcullis has been removed by FIRST.


Can someone explain this to me? Did FIRST discontinue the portcullis due to safety or durability issues? Or am I missing something obvious? Thanks.

[jajabinx124]

Can someone explain this to me? Did FIRST discontinue the portcullis due to safety or durability issues? Or am I missing something obvious? Thanks.

FIRST discontinued the portcullis due to safety. It apparently gave a number of volunteers injuries and sent a couple to the hospital. (while putting it together/and taking it down, field reset volunteers didn't get injured but it was the volunteers who made sure it was ready/volunteers that needed to take it apart I think)

[logank013]

FIRST discontinued the portcullis due to safety. It apparently gave a number of volunteers injuries and sent a couple to the hospital.

Was it discontinued before worlds or after worlds? Also, did those injuries happen at worlds or across the season? Did it have anything to do with the coil that made the portcullis glide up and down or did it have to do with the bar that popped out when it went up too fast? Thanks and sorry to get off track.

[jajabinx124]

Was it discontinued before worlds or after worlds? Also, did those injuries happen at worlds or across the season? Did it have anything to do with the coil that made the portcullis glide up and down or did it have to do with the bar that popped out when it went up too fast? Thanks and sorry to get off track.

After worlds. Across the season I believe. I'm not exactly sure what part of the portcullis during putting it together/taking it apart gave some volunteers injuries.

[wilsonmw04]

After worlds. Across the season I believe. I'm not exactly sure what part of the portcullis during putting it together/taking it apart gave volunteers injuries.

It tried to take fingers off. really. Some of the injuries were severe.

[rick.oliver]

...

9. G13 Exception – G13 Applies, however, AFTER a robot has fully crossed a defense and returned to the midline, a robot may cross the midline with no foul and contact with an opposing alliance robot will not be an additional foul.

...

Nice adjustments, as usual. So, if a robot goes the wrong way out of auton, G13 applies as it did during the season?


The G13 modification does not mention the award of a crossing to the robot contacted. In the event that a robot attempting a two-boulder auton contacts an opponent's robot which has become stuck in the outer works on its initial attempt to cross, do you intend to retain or remove the crossing award portion of the penalty from the rule?

[AdamHeard]

It tried to take fingers off. really. Some of the injuries were severe.

Large constant force springs are dangerous... They're pretty much spring steel knives that are also tensioned and capable of rapid movement w/ reasonable force.

Very easy to hurt yourself if you're not knowledgeable and careful.

[Michael Hill]

Large constant force springs are dangerous... They're pretty much spring steel knives that are also tensioned and capable of rapid movement w/ reasonable force.

Very easy to hurt yourself if you're not knowledgeable and careful.

I'll concur. We had a large CF spring on our elevator in 2015. It was always a tense moment attaching it to the carriage, making sure only the people needed during the installation were the ones near the robot at the time. Injuries would not surprise me at all.

[Koko Ed]

FIRST discontinued the portcullis due to safety. It apparently gave a number of volunteers injuries and sent a couple to the hospital. (while putting it together/and taking it down, field reset volunteers didn't get injured but it was the volunteers who made sure it was ready/volunteers that needed to take it apart I think)

One of the field supervisors recently posted a rather graphic) picture of his rather damaged fingers due to the portcullis mangling it (he needed screws placed int his broken fingers). We don't need any more injuries.

[GaryVoshol]

In your scenario, Match 6 would be used to calculate the tie-breaker.

We are working on a listing to capture the scenarios we can think of and how they would be decided. Hopefully not needed, but we want to have it defined in advance.

That's exactly how I interpreted the rule. I don't think you need to spend too much time calculating all the possibilities. Something simple like, "If teams get a tie score in 3 matches in an elimination round, the tie-breaker rules will apply to subsequent matches for those 2 teams in that round."

[Cory Walters]

Is IRI planning on continuing the patch's that go on the standards? For that matter, does any other off season event plan on making any?

It would be pretty awesome if their was an IRI sticker that teams could put on! It was a cool aspect of this years game.

[Chris Fultz]

Nice adjustments, as usual. So, if a robot goes the wrong way out of auton, G13 applies as it did during the season?


The G13 modification does not mention the award of a crossing to the robot contacted. In the event that a robot attempting a two-boulder auton contacts an opponent's robot which has become stuck in the outer works on its initial attempt to cross, do you intend to retain or remove the crossing award portion of the penalty from the rule?

If the robot goes the wrong way initially, the rule still applies.

If there is contact after a robot has crossed a defense and come back, there is no crossing award.

[Chris Fultz]

Is IRI planning on continuing the patch's that go on the standards? For that matter, does any other off season event plan on making any?

It would be pretty awesome if their was an IRI sticker that teams could put on! It was a cool aspect of this years game.


We don't give away all of our surprises :D

(there could be one in the works ...)

[wilsonmw04]

We don't give away all of our surprises :D

(there could be one in the works ...)

+1

[Moonsault]

Yeah, my point was more along the lines of "better", not "perfect". Obviously I wasn't clear enough... To be fair the play style was somewhat unique in IN (compared to other areas) which may explain our lack of panel breakage.

We did break a couple batter dividers though (1 in Indiana, 1 on Carson) and had various light string short-outs (which I'm not going to comment on further), so it wasn't field repair utopia. You can't win them all...
That one batter divider in Indiana was because of our team. After the match, a volunteer gave us the broken pieces and we have them in our shop. ;)

[amritparmanand]

They did identify the root cause of much of the Palmetto breakage, but that doesn't mean breakages didn't happen later in the season. And when your alternative (https://twitter.com/WmLeverette/status/703242439511908352) is gone, I figure it's worth asking. :)

Yeah... we snapped a panel in half at the Hartford Regional this year, doesnt take much to snap it when you have a 6cim 3:1 drive, haha.

[scca229]

They did identify the root cause of much of the Palmetto breakage, but that doesn't mean breakages didn't happen later in the season. And when your alternative (https://twitter.com/WmLeverette/status/703242439511908352) is gone, I figure it's worth asking. :)

If they are using the CDF setup that we had to add on to ours at Arizona West in Week 6, I want to meet the robot that can break them without breaking the base. It was a steel plate added along the full length of the bottom of the panel. I just barely missed dropping them on my feet when I *tried* to pick up the box when I didn't know what was inside and was opening my FTA presents from HQ. I still can't believe that FedEx actually shipped them in one box, they were so heavy.

I got lucky this year. Four events with zero CDF/Portcullis breakage as far as I know. One drawbridge panel that didn't look so healthy, but was fine for practice field use.

[Tyler Olds]

Will the boulders at IRI be used, new, or a combination of both?

[Chris Fultz]

Will the boulders at IRI be used, new, or a combination of both?

Yes.