Ontario Moving to District Model in 2017

[GreyingJay]

It's official: Ontario is moving to the District Model for 2017!

https://www.facebook.com/FIRSTRoboticsCanada/photos/pcb.1197215793676805/1197215547010163/

Our team received an email today with the announcement. We are excited... I think! :)

FIRST Robotics Competition Family in Ontario,

The FIRST Robotics Canada Board of Directors would like to formally announce that the program in Ontario will be moving to the District Model for the 2017 competition season. This decision culminates almost three years of preparatory work. We consulted with the FIRST Robotics Competition community in Ontario as part of this process, and the feedback we have received from you has been thoughtful and constructive, helping shape our decision. At this time, most of the community is ready to welcome and embrace the District concept, and we hope that eventually, all of you will feel the same way. The biggest result of this change will be that Ontario teams will play a minimum of two District events vs. just one Regional event. The result of this will mean that, on average, teams will play approximately 3 times the number of matches than under the traditional Regional model. In addition, a new Ontario District Championship event will be held, where based on a common ranking points system adopted by all districts, the top 60 teams in the province will be invited to compete.

The District Championship will take place at the Hershey Centre in Mississauga, the original venue of our inaugural regional in Canada back in 2002. The City of Mississauga has come on board as a sponsor for this event and we would like to thank them for their support. After the District Championship, the top ranked teams in the province will be selected to represent Ontario at the FIRST Championship Event. We have worked hard to add 3 new District events in Ontario as well as a District Championship in order to support this transition. This will guarantee two District event plays for each existing team as well as allow for growth in the Ontario region. We are working to confirm another GTA District event and will be releasing the details as soon as confirmed.

We are thrilled to announce and thank the following event locations for hosting a 2017 District event:
Nipissing University, North Bay
University of Windsor, Windsor
Ryerson University, Toronto
Durham College, Oshawa
University of Waterloo, Waterloo
University of Western Ontario, London
Georgian College, Barrie
McMaster University, Hamilton

The team registration costs under the District model will be significantly less than the traditional Regional model on a per-event basis. (e.g. In the District Model, teams attend two events, versus the Traditional Regional with one event). We are also working on a process that will allow Ontario teams to pay in Canadian dollars directly to FIRST Canada.

[Sperkowsky]

WOAH

[frcguy]

WOAH

+1

[bkahl]

WOAH

SO IT IS ACTUALLY FACTUAL INFORMATION?

[GreyingJay]

WOAH

Yes, we are just processing it now too.

Key takeaways: looks like all the existing Ontario regional events will become District events, with a few new ones added. Since we went to two regionals (Greater Toronto Central and North Bay) it will feel very similar to go to two district events again.

The combined cost to attend two of these will be cheaper than it used to be to register for two Ontario regionals.

The new Ontario District Championship event will be held in Mississauga at the Hershey Center.

No more teams from out of province (who are not in Districts) :( Sorry Quebec and NY state.

[Allison K]

...

No more teams from out of province :( Sorry Quebec and NY state.

Can Michigan come visit? :)

[Karthik]

Can Michigan come visit? :)

Of course. Even better, Ontario teams can go back to Michigan for the first time since 2008!

[cad321]

What I want to know is if a team competes in their 2 district events (and district champs if applicable) could an ontario team go and compete at a regional (not district event) elsewhere. In the FAQ sent out, they said you can't ignore the district model and go off to regionals instead. But if we competed in our district events, could it be allowed?

[Leila Silver]

What I want to know is if a team competes in their 2 district events (and district champs if applicable) could an ontario team go and compete at a regional (not district event) elsewhere. In the Q&A sent out, they said you can't ignore the district model and go off to regionals instead. But if we competed in our district events, could it be allowed?
Under the district model, you can compete in outside regionals.

[Sperkowsky]

What I want to know is if a team competes in their 2 district events (and district champs if applicable) could an ontario team go and compete at a regional (not district event) elsewhere. In the Q&A sent out, they said you can't ignore the district model and go off to regionals instead. But if we competed in our district events, could it be allowed?

District teams can do as many regional events as they want but they can not sign up for the events until they already signed up for their two district events. Its somewhat common for teams to do a single travel regional along with their 2 district events and DCMP.

The closest regionals for Ontario teams are going to be Ohio and NY events. There is also most likely still going to be a Montreal regional.

[GreyingJay]

What I want to know is if a team competes in their 2 district events (and district champs if applicable) could an ontario team go and compete at a regional (not district event) elsewhere. In the FAQ sent out, they said you can't ignore the district model and go off to regionals instead. But if we competed in our district events, could it be allowed?

My read of the FAQ is yes, after you've done the two district events, you can go to a regional.

From Q14: "Ontario teams will be allowed to register in a Regional event after registering for their initial 2 District events first if they choose."

[Knufire]

Are Canadian secondary schools generally smaller than American high schools? Interesting that all of the district venues are colleges or universities.

[Basel A]

Of course. Even better, Ontario teams can go back to Michigan for the first time since 2008!

I'm amped up about this possibility. We enjoyed partnering with 1241 when they came to the Girls' Competition a couple years back. Looking forward to being able to play with more Canadian teams here in Michigan. With the lower cost, we might even be able to reasonably travel (to Windsor at least).

[Pauline Tasci]

This is awesome news.
Can't wait to see it's implementation during competition season.

[cad321]

Are Canadian secondary schools generally smaller than American high schools? Interesting that all of the district venues are colleges or universities.

Here in the region I'm in (halton region, just a little west of Toronto) we only have one school that could host such an event comfortably. The rest are too small IMO. The local colleges and universities offer a much more comfortable venue.

[mman1506]

Are Canadian secondary schools generally smaller than American high schools? Interesting that all of the district venues are colleges or universities.

Yup, In the GTA at least if your school has more than one gymnasium or a pool it is considered to be a huge school. Most public schools aren't setup to handle a sports event attended by more than a handful of people. IRI's venue was the biggest high school I had ever seen by far.

[Matt Ciprietti]

Are Canadian secondary schools generally smaller than American high schools? Interesting that all of the district venues are colleges or universities.

Absolutely. Obviously this is going to vary somewhat by region and there are a handful of outliers, but it is generally true. In particular, we don't put as much emphasis on our athletic facilities, which means that many high school gyms only have a seating capacity of perhaps 500 or so. A single high school in my area has a gym designed for almost 2000 people (in a single-court basketball configuration), and that's a huge rarity in the province.

Ontario regionals have always been at these University venues, so it makes sense to maintain them in the district system since they will likely be the same size of event in terms of number of teams. The alternative is cramming smaller events into high schools, which is technically possible, but not as comfortable. As was mentioned in the announcement, a challenge will be to maintain the regional quality on a smaller budget, but I'm confident that FIRST Canada will sort it all out.

As an aside, I'm thrilled that McMaster University (just down the street from our school) will be hosting! I know a lot of people worked for a very long time to bring that to fruition, and they did a great job!

[Mike Schreiber]

Of course. Even better, Ontario teams can go back to Michigan for the first time since 2008!

Maybe. Very few open spots were available this past year for MI teams to get a 3rd event. I'm curious how this will be handled. With how FiM is run I would imagine MI teams would be given the priority.

[jwfoss]

Of course. Even better, Ontario teams can go back to Michigan for the first time since 2008!

I'm sure NE would welcome some visitors from the north as well.

[Insanity000]

No more teams from out of province (who are not in Districts) :( Sorry Quebec and NY state.

NY is perfectly ok with this :p

[Jay O'Donnell]

NY is perfectly ok with this

Speak for yourself, we just lost half of our regionals within a decent driving distance.

[Sperkowsky]

Speak for yourself, we just lost half of our regionals within a decent driving distance.

Just another reason to go to districts. :o

[Jay O'Donnell]

Just another reason to go to districts. :o

To be fair, our closest regional is still about a 3 hour drive. But districts are such a better system. It's tough knowing how good they are first hand and then having to go back to districts. That being said I don't really know what obstacles are in the way for a NY district so I shouldn't complain too much.

[GreyingJay]

Speak for yourself, we just lost half of our regionals within a decent driving distance.

We enjoyed playing with you at North Bay. We'll miss you.

[Michael Corsetto]

Does FIRST Canada have any existing RD's going into this transition?

If so, what role will those individuals have in the new District format?

-Mike

[RoboChair]

Does FIRST Canada have any existing RD's going into this transition?

If so, what role will those individuals have in the new District format?

-Mike

WTB California Districts plz! Maybe add in some surrounding states.

[frcguy]

WTB California Districts plz! Maybe add in some surrounding states.

One day...

[PayneTrain]

New York teams looking for regionals:

https://images.hellogiggles.com/uploads/2015/12/11/GinaGIF.gif

[Sperkowsky]

New York teams looking for regionals:

https://images.hellogiggles.com/uploads/2015/12/11/GinaGIF.gif
Well the good news is, it is somewhat confirmed NY is hosting 5 regionals next year instead of 4.

The bad news is NY is hosting regionals.

[nuclearnerd]

As an aside, I'm thrilled that McMaster University (just down the street from our school) will be hosting! I know a lot of people worked for a very long time to bring that to fruition, and they did a great job!

This is great news! The McMaster event will definitely bring travel costs down. So much so, maybe we can think about a third event or regional. I'm also looking forward to bringing Hamilton sponsors to the big show. We should be able to have students volunteer at the event too.

Does anyone know if FIRST Canada running the show at all events, or have they recruited some new regional directors? (edit: what Michael said)

[Michael Corsetto]

One day...

Based on emails I have gotten from RD's in CA, that day is very far away.

[Pauline Tasci]

Based on emails I have gotten from RD's in CA, that day is very far away.

Guess we have to push even harder.

[MailmanDelivers]

I'm sure NE would welcome some visitors from the north as well.

We will. We always enjoy visits from Canadian teams!

[Michael Corsetto]

Guess we have to push even harder.

http://www.thisiscolossal.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/lego.gif

[Richard Wallace]

http://www.thisiscolossal.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/lego.gif
Look, it's Robo-Sysiphus!

I hope California's transition to districts will be easier than this.

[ratdude747]

If Indiana districts weren't as likely to keep me busy next season, I'd be tempted to pay one of them a visit. Now that I have a career that sends me to London, ON on a semi-regular basis, I have a passport so I can go past the border.

[Alan Anderson]

Guess we have to push even harder.

Don't push. Pull. Lead from the front. If you want your region to "go districts", help to make everything ready, and make it inviting enough for it to happen easily.

[Pauline Tasci]

Don't push. Pull. Lead from the front. If you want your region to "go districts", help to make everything ready, and make it inviting enough for it to happen easily.

Way easier said then done, especially with all the politics that play into FIRST CA.
"Leading" the district push is great but nearly impossible when other people demand the reigns.

With that said I don't want to take away from the OP.
I'm very excited that Ontario is going to districts!!

[GreyingJay]

We're... cautiously excited? :p

I know feedback has been positive from all the areas that have gone to districts. A lot of it sounds good on paper. Cheaper fees. (And fees in Canadian dollars will help a lot with currency fluctuations.) Same great regionals that we know and love plus a few more. Personally I'm hoping for a new district event closer to Kingston or Ottawa... :)

District Championships can be seen as an added "hurdle" between here and Worlds, but at the same time, being able to say "We made it to the provincials!" isn't anything to sneeze at either.

[Karthik]

I had a chance to dig a bit through the numbers last night and I'm thrilled at the deal Ontario teams will be getting on registration through the new district system. Look at this comparison of costs taken from the Ontario District Announcement FAQ. As stated in the document these costs for 2017 are just projections at the moment, with exact details and invoices coming out in November. All prices are below are in Canadian Dollars based off today's USD-CAD exchange rate of 1.28.

http://i.imgur.com/WLwCQ6a.png

For a team who currently goes to two events, there's an instant savings of over $4000.00 CAD. That savings increases further if you compare the cost of attending 3 Regionals vs 2 Districts and the discounted District Championship. Teams will be having a lot of money put right back into their pockets to start the season.

For years teams have been pushing for this transition to districts in order to take advantage of these savings. Now that FIRST Canada has made the jump it's up to the teams to give back and help make this happen. This transition to districts will need a huge new influx of volunteers. Going from 5 to 9 or 10 events next season will be a big change. This can't happen unless Ontario teams step up and provide/recruit more volunteers to make this new format success. So if you're on an Ontario team, please consider signing up on VIMS to be volunteer for next season. Heck, sign up for one of the three off-season events happening this fall to get trained and to meet the people you'll be working with. Let's give back to our community so we can lead FRC in Ontario into the future.

[IndySam]

Of course. Even better, Ontario teams can go back to Michigan for the first time since 2008!

Good luck getting into a Michigan event. They barely have enough spots for their own teams every year.

That's a great problem for them to have.

[IndySam]

Yup, In the GTA at least if your school has more than one gymnasium or a pool it is considered to be a huge school. Most public schools aren't setup to handle a sports event attended by more than a handful of people. IRI's venue was the biggest high school I had ever seen by far.

In Indiana basketball is the high school sport. We have the majority of the largest gyms in the country (seating wise.) Also large indoor facilities do to weather.

If you want to see a big school, drive on down to Warren Central, south of Lawrence North, where we have more that a million square feet under roof.

[cbale2000]

Good luck getting into a Michigan event. They barely have enough spots for their own teams every year.

That's a great problem for them to have.

Basically this, Gail has been prodding us for a few years now to host a second district and/or find another suitable venue for an additional district competition in our area because of the lack of available slots in the state (possibly getting worse this coming year as there may be one or two districts that stop being hosted from what I hear).

If I'm not mistaken, there were something like less than 10 slots left over this year after initial registration for teams that wanted a 3rd event or coming from out of state.

[first3234]

Of course. Even better, Ontario teams can go back to Michigan for the first time since 2008!

If so come to the west Michigan district what FIM considers there premiere district of all of FIM

[Sperkowsky]

In Indiana basketball is the high school sport. We have the majority of the largest gyms in the country (seating wise.) Also large indoor facilities do to weather.

If you want to see a big school, drive on down to Warren Central, south of Lawrence North, where we have more that a million square feet under roof.

If you want to see a big school go look at team 5417's school. Its a short drive down to Allen Texas but that Football stadium is probably bigger then most of our team's schools.

http://www.pogueconstruction.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Allen-Stadium-1.jpg

Oh yea Ontario Districts whoops.

[cad321]

If you want to see a big school go look at team 5417's school. Its a short drive down to Allen Texas but that Football stadium is probably bigger then most of our team's schools.

http://www.pogueconstruction.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Allen-Stadium-1.jpg

Oh yea Ontario Districts whoops.

I'm sorry... that's a school?! Here in ontario I'd consider that a major stadium where the "pros" play. Never in a million years could I see a public school getting that kind of facility/funding up here.

[TDav540]

I'm sorry... that's a school?! Here in ontario I'd consider that a major stadium where the "pros" play. Never in a million years could I see a public school getting that kind of facility/funding up here.

Don't worry, you're not the only one who thinks it's ludicrous.

Ontario districts are gonna be awesome, especially district champs. If it's week 7, I'll have to try and find a way up there to volunteer.

[GreyingJay]

What are District Championships like?

Are they anything like Worlds? Do they have any kind of seminars, workshops, or anything above and beyond what a normal regional event would have?

(And if not, could they?)

[Lil' Lavery]

What are District Championships like?

Are they anything like Worlds? Do they have any kind of seminars, workshops, or anything above and beyond what a normal regional event would have?

(And if not, could they?)

That depends entirely on the district. There's very little standardization from FIRST with regards to managing the DCMPs. FiM champs does have team-run seminars. New England champs has a very high production value. MAR champs is a budget-driven event that is aesthetically and functionally just a larger district qualifier event.

[KrazyCarl92]

Does FIRST Canada have any existing RD's going into this transition?

If so, what role will those individuals have in the new District format?

-Mike

This is a subtle, but very important set of questions to have an answer to.

RD's do not necessarily have the same objectives as teams when it comes to event planning, so I am interested to hear how this conflict of interests is handled in regions that are able to make the switch to districts.

[bkahl]

New England champs has a very high production value.

I think we just got really lucky here-

The AV company that does all the NE events is owned and operated by FRC alumni. As I like to say- "they get it."

[Mike Schreiber]

If so come to the west Michigan district what FIM considers there premiere district of all of FIM

Citation needed.

[Christopher149]

How does the team in Thunder Bay, ON, (4732) feel about the transition? It's a 12-hour drive or couple hour flight to the nearest event (North Bay). Two events will be a step up from their usual of attending only one Toronto-area regional.

[nbetik]

As much as I think the move to the district model is great, with lower prices and all that, I'm going to miss competing with teams from far away at the Waterloo Regional (only a 5 minute drive from my team's high school!). Being on an alliance with 148 this year was absolutely incredible. Plus, even though I wasn't on the team in 2014, just seeing 254 at that year's WR was wicked cool.

[Roboshant]

If so come to the west Michigan district what FIM considers there premiere district of all of FIM

Need a citation. I would argue that Waterford and Troy would be better contenders for the premier district. Anyways 1114 already prototypes in Troy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrhShfRoYR4&feature=youtu.be) :p

Also it seems they have plans of going to troy.

^This might actually become reality.

[Basel A]

As much as I think the move to the district model is great, with lower prices and all that, I'm going to miss competing with teams from far away at the Waterloo Regional (only a 5 minute drive from my team's high school!). Being on an alliance with 148 this year was absolutely incredible. Plus, even though I wasn't on the team in 2014, just seeing 254 at that year's WR was wicked cool.

We're at the tipping point where you don't lose all that much potential for diversity by going to districts. For example, Texas is considering going district, so 148 or 118 could still come to Canada, and it would actually be cheaper for them than it was before.

[PayneTrain]

I had a chance to dig a bit through the numbers last night and I'm thrilled at the deal Ontario teams will be getting on registration through the new district system. Look at this comparison of costs taken from the Ontario District Announcement FAQ. As stated in the document these costs for 2017 are just projections at the moment, with exact details and invoices coming out in November. All prices are below are in Canadian Dollars based off today's USD-CAD exchange rate of 1.28.

http://i.imgur.com/WLwCQ6a.png

For a team who currently goes to two events, there's an instant savings of over $4000.00 CAD. That savings increases further if you compare the cost of attending 3 Regionals vs 2 Districts and the discounted District Championship. Teams will be having a lot of money put right back into their pockets to start the season.

For years teams have been pushing for this transition to districts in order to take advantage of these savings. Now that FIRST Canada has made the jump it's up to the teams to give back and help make this happen. This transition to districts will need a huge new influx of volunteers. Going from 5 to 9 or 10 events next season will be a big change. This can't happen unless Ontario teams step up and provide/recruit more volunteers to make this new format success. So if you're on an Ontario team, please consider signing up on VIMS to be volunteer for next season. Heck, sign up for one of the three off-season events happening this fall to get trained and to meet the people you'll be working with. Let's give back to our community so we can lead FRC in Ontario into the future.

If you are a team in a district system, get at least one mentor to be a robot inspector! You'll only be really needed on Day Zero to get through initial inspections, and everyone will thank you.

[WelderManiac]

How does the team in Thunder Bay, ON, (4732) feel about the transition? It's a 12-hour drive or couple hour flight to the nearest event (North Bay). Two events will be a step up from their usual of attending only one Toronto-area regional.

We're quite concerned right now. It's a fifteen hour drive to send the robot down unless we were to ship it in a crate. Having to go to two events would be a logistical and budgetary nightmare for us. We're trying to go to the Northern Lights Regional next year instead of down to GTRE, like we did this year.

I'm also worried for team 4704 (Timmins), which I assume would have an even harder time raising the funds to do districts.

[Lil' Lavery]

We're at the tipping point where you don't lose all that much potential for diversity by going to districts. For example, Texas is considering going district, so 148 or 118 could still come to Canada, and it would actually be cheaper for them than it was before.

That really depends on how many open spots are left. For most districts, they pick the lowest number of events required to support two plays for their district teams. That leaves few spots for third plays. Given the scheduling for registering for 3rd plays, very few spots are available for inter-district play.

[Christopher149]

We're quite concerned right now. It's a fifteen hour drive to send the robot down unless we were to ship it in a crate. Having to go to two events would be a logistical and budgetary nightmare for us. We're trying to go to the Northern Lights Regional next year instead of down to GTRE, like we did this year.

I'm also worried for team 4704 (Timmins), which I assume would have an even harder time raising the funds to do districts.

Not really knowing how rural Timmins is: they have events about 4 and 8 hours away (according to Google Maps). When Michigan went districts, our closest events were about 8 and 10 hours away (now down to ~3 and ~5.5). So it's not the worst drive, but it does raise their travel costs.

[ratdude747]

If Michigan Districts fill up, there are usually a few open slots down in Indiana. Not as close as Michigan, but it's only one state further south.

[dtengineering]

We're quite concerned right now. It's a fifteen hour drive to send the robot down unless we were to ship it in a crate. Having to go to two events would be a logistical and budgetary nightmare for us. We're trying to go to the Northern Lights Regional next year instead of down to GTRE, like we did this year.

I'm also worried for team 4704 (Timmins), which I assume would have an even harder time raising the funds to do districts.

That is a down side of having illogical district boundaries. For the past two years BC teams have had to compete in Calgary, rather than in the PNW district event taking place about one hour's drive south of them in Washington state.

To add to the irony, Alaska is able to send teams to PNW district events, meaning that Vancouver teams are surrounded by a district they cannot (at present) join.

Nothing against the Calgary regional (both teams had a great time there), but it makes poor environmental and economic logic to drive over 12 hours to get to an event when you have events one hour and three hours drive from your school.

Knowing several key people involved in both Ontario and PNW, I have faith that over time they will be able to make districts work out really well for ALL the teams... not just the 95% of teams that currently see a huge benefit from the district model.

Congratulations to Ontario on going district. I've been volunteering in the PNW for a few years now, and while I'm blown away by the commitment of the key volunteers, it has been great for the teams that can take part in it.

Jason

[IKE]

I am very excited to hear Ontario is making the transition.

Some tips:

1. Have at least 1 mentor or former student from your team sign up to be an inspector. Commitments for inspecting can be relatively light, and a lot of inspectors make light work. Students heavily involved in build (typically electrical or mechanical) tend to work out well.
2. Refs are also typically of high demand. I will not pretend I know what it takes, but I know a lot of former students a couple years out of the program tend to do a good job for us in Michigan. This is a higher pressure role than inspecting. I have heard former competition team students do well in this role as long as they do not hold grudges.
3. Try to get parents involved with some of the other non-key volunteer roles for events. I smile every year that I see one parent of students that graduated in 2009 still helping with scoring table at a couple events each year.
4. Talk with your sponsors about whether or not they could spare someone for Judging.


For many regions, the switch to District system can be a great spur for growth. Keep this in mind and have key volunteers look for other prospects to help in their roles for future years.

Congratulations again. The first year can be very scary and will be a lot of hard work, but once you have completed a District Championship, it is hard to imagine going back.

Hopefully I will see a couple teams from Canada next year at my Michigan events.

[first3234]

Need a citation. I would argue that Waterford and Troy would be better contenders for the premier district. Anyways 1114 already prototypes in Troy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrhShfRoYR4&feature=youtu.be) :p



^This might actually become reality.

Yes they attract a lot of competitive teams but west michigan(gvsu event) it has been around since 2003 and has been held every year since then Waterford started in 201 and troy since 2009 I think it's save to say that west Michigan is the premiere district of "FIM"

[Mark Sheridan]

That is a down side of having illogical district boundaries. For the past two years BC teams have had to compete in Calgary, rather than in the PNW district event taking place about one hour's drive south of them in Washington state.

To add to the irony, Alaska is able to send teams to PNW district events, meaning that Vancouver teams are surrounded by a district they cannot (at present) join.

Nothing against the Calgary regional (both teams had a great time there), but it makes poor environmental and economic logic to drive over 12 hours to get to an event when you have events one hour and three hours drive from your school.

Knowing several key people involved in both Ontario and PNW, I have faith that over time they will be able to make districts work out really well for ALL the teams... not just the 95% of teams that currently see a huge benefit from the district model.

Congratulations to Ontario on going district. I've been volunteering in the PNW for a few years now, and while I'm blown away by the commitment of the key volunteers, it has been great for the teams that can take part in it.

Jason
I am not sure why FIRST is obsessed with geographic boarders. This was solved in high school sports a long time ago. There are several California high schools that compete in Nevada athletic leagues for this very reason.

I think teams should be able to request to join a district.

[GreyingJay]

I am not sure why FIRST is obsessed with geographic boarders. This was solved in high school sports a long time ago. There are several California high schools that compete in Nevada athletic leagues for this very reason.

I think teams should be able to request to join a district.

Won't this become a moot point if/when all regions go to districts? Given that we've been talking about Ontario teams going to Michigan, does that imply that once you're in the districts system, you can just ask to play with a different district? Or must you compete in your home district before going to visit another?

It's the teams that are in the district system that cannot request to go to a traditional regional instead, and vice versa.

[scca229]

It's the teams that are in the district system that cannot request to go to a traditional regional instead, and vice versa.

It is my understanding that it is the other way around. A District team can attend a Regional, including advancing directly to World Championships with either Winning (or generated Wildcard) or earning an advancing award (Chairman's, EI, RAS).

As far as I know, Regional teams cannot in any way compete at a District event.


I am far removed from being in a District area though, do I have this wrong in my mind?

[GreyingJay]

It is my understanding that it is the other way around. A District team can attend a Regional, including advancing directly to World Championships with either Winning (or generated Wildcard) or earning an advancing award (Chairman's, EI, RAS).


My understanding is that district teams can attend a regional after attending their district events, but cannot choose to play at a regional instead of going to district events.

Edit: :s/attend/register

[ATannahill]

My understanding is that district teams can attend a regional after attending their district events, but cannot choose to play at a regional instead of going to district events.
The way it has been in the past and I expect it to continue going forward is they can register for a regional after registering for their two districts, the chronological order of their regional and districts does not matter.

[scca229]

My understanding is that district teams can attend a regional after attending their district events, but cannot choose to play at a regional instead of going to district events.

The "instead" part would be correct. If you are in Districts, your initial Registration Window is for Districts and then you can later register for any open slots in Regionals. I don't believe there is a limitation on what competition weeks the Regionals can be though, just that you are not able to register for them until I believe the 3rd Event Regional Registration Window opens, basically after Regional teams have had their chance to choose their first and second events. You can play in a Regional before your second District event week though (otherwise District teams could never play a Week 1 or 2 Regional).

edit: Like rtfgnow mentioned, I'm typing based on rules through the 2016 season...things could change for 2017.

[GreyingJay]

Thanks guys, distinction noted between registering for events and actually attending them :D

[Mark Sheridan]

Won't this become a moot point if/when all regions go to districts? Given that we've been talking about Ontario teams going to Michigan, does that imply that once you're in the districts system, you can just ask to play with a different district? Or must you compete in your home district before going to visit another?

It's the teams that are in the district system that cannot request to go to a traditional regional instead, and vice versa.

For the California Tahoe area high schools like Truckee, they are in the Nevada Interscholastic Activities Association. So for Truckee football, they have played a championship game in Reno, Nevada. This is an examples of how population densities don't follow state borders and that borders can split a population.

So in the application for a FIRST team, it would mean that if a team gets the first choice on their preferred local district event and the benefits of a more local district championship. The key point is to give a mechanism to help team get to their local events irregardless of their state boarder. I am proposing that an out of district team has another option to having to find an open slot. They would apply to join a district and thus count toward district population for event planning and are part of the district and thus entitled to all those benefits. Of course, an application can be denied.

So for those BC schools, I think they should be able to apply to join PNW if they want to and PNW can decide if they can join or not.

[P.J.]

2. Refs are also typically of high demand. I will not pretend I know what it takes, but I know a lot of former students a couple years out of the program tend to do a good job for us in Michigan. This is a higher pressure role than inspecting. I have heard former competition team students do well in this role as long as they do not hold grudges.

I'll take this one.

Yes, referees always seem to be in high demand. As Ike said, alumni are a great resource to pull from. Speaking as an alum turned referee (turned unofficial referee recruiter and trainer), it's great to have people familiar with how FRC games typically work transition to reffing. It's much easier to train them than, say, a parent from a team.

I've noticed the "best" alumni referees seem to have either been on drive team or the head scouts on their former teams. These are the positions that usually know the games and rules the best.

It's a high pressure job, but you also get the "best seat in the house" as one of my former head referees used to say. I highly recommend it for alumni who want to remain involved in first without necessarily mentoring a team.

[EricH]

I'll take this one.

Yes, referees always seem to be in high demand. As Ike said, alumni are a great resource to pull from. Speaking as an alum turned referee (turned unofficial referee recruiter and trainer), it's great to have people familiar with how FRC games typically work transition to reffing. It's much easier to train them than, say, a parent from a team.

I've noticed the "best" alumni referees seem to have either been on drive team or the head scouts on their former teams. These are the positions that usually know the games and rules the best.

It's a high pressure job, but you also get the "best seat in the house" as one of my former head referees used to say. I highly recommend it for alumni who want to remain involved in first without necessarily mentoring a team.
Ditto this. The other good element for a ref is practice at offseasons. It'll at least give you a feel for how the game is played as a ref, even though it'll change before the next year.

As far as "in high demand"... can I double that? I'd like to not end up in stripes at 4 events again next year (two of them I wasn't planning on that...). (Though I've got a funny feeling that I'll be recruited to do just that...)

[Brian Maher]

I am not sure why FIRST is obsessed with geographic boarders.

I couldn't agree more. As a member of MAR, the one district with a non-state-line boundary, I've seen that logically grouping teams can be much more effective than state lines. For the most part, New Jersey and Eastern Pennsylvania form a pretty continuous cluster of teams that doesn't really leave out any nearby groupings of teams (aside from NYC, which makes more sense to be a separate district due to the transportation challenges presented to NYC teams). The western boundary of MAR is not a state line, but it's a line that makes sense.

(And I'd hate to play without our Pennsylvania friends.)

[nuclearnerd]

I would also like to know if Ontario is also moving to 2 day events (with unbag time), or will they remain 3 day events?

[Christopher149]

I would also like to know if Ontario is also moving to 2 day events (with unbag time), or will they remain 3 day events?

I would presume 2 day events, like every other district.

[Brian Maher]

I would also like to know if Ontario is also moving to 2 day events (with unbag time), or will they remain 3 day events?

District events are two day events. It's part of what keeps district event costs low. The larger District Championships, which would almost certainly include the 60 team ONCMP, are three day events.

[Hallry]

I would also like to know if Ontario is also moving to 2 day events (with unbag time), or will they remain 3 day events?

I would presume 2 day events, like every other district.

District events are two day events. It's part of what keeps district event costs low. The larger District Championships, which would almost certainly include the 60 team ONCMP, are three day events.

Just to be clear to those unfamiliar with districts, while most of us do call District Events "2-day events", there's almost always a third load-in and set-up day beforehand where you can unbag, work on, and practice with your robot (at least in MAR). For the Mt. Olive MAR District Event (https://mort11.org/static/files/district/2016/Mount%20Olive%20FRC%20Event-TeamInfoPacket_2016.pdf) for example, which many call a "Saturday-Sunday event", pits open at 4pm on the Friday before, with the inspection station opening at 5:30pm and practice matches running from 6pm to 9pm.

As Brian mentioned, some (see stipulations in posts below) District Championships run similar to a normal 3-day regional with a full practice day, depending on the district. Here's the 2016 MAR DCMP schedule (http://www.midatlanticrobotics.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/2016_MARChamps_Schedule_Updated_60_Teams.pdf). Note that yes, we did begin Qualification Matches on Thursday of District Champs. That was...interesting.

[mman1506]

Just to be clear to those unfamiliar with districts, while most of us do call District Events "2-day events", there's almost always a third load-in and set-up day beforehand where you can unbag, work on, and practice with your robot. For the Mt. Olive MAR District Event (https://mort11.org/static/files/district/2016/Mount%20Olive%20FRC%20Event-TeamInfoPacket_2016.pdf) for example, which many call a "Saturday-Sunday event", pits open at 4pm on the Friday before, with the inspection station opening at 5:30pm and practice matches running from 6pm to 9pm.

As Brian mentioned, District Championships run almost exactly like a normal 3-day regional with a full practice day.
Do you still get unbag time before attending district champs?

[Hallry]

Do you still get unbag time before attending district champs?

No, the 6-hours of unbag time is only for District Events, not District Championships.

EDIT:The 6-hours of unbag time is only valid for 2-day events. As Wil pointed out below, there are some 2-day DCMPs, meaning that qualified teams do receive 6-hours of unbag time beforehand. So, it depends on what district system you are in. TIL.

[PayneTrain]

As Brian mentioned, District Championships run almost exactly like a normal 3-day regional with a full practice day.

3-Day DCMPs are a hybrid of district events and regional events where you have a tools-on Day Zero for inspections and Day One has a full slate of practice matches until lunch, then it rolls in to qualification rounds.

3-Day DCMPs, however, are not allotted bag time since it is a three day event (even though Day 1 has quals... still haven't figured that one out yet).

2-Day DCMPs for the smaller single-state district systems do have bag time, as they are pretty much a district event invitational in terms of size and execution. PCH might have had to deal with some special rules w/r/t venue requests but I think it's all the same.

I expect Ontario to operate with a 3-Day DCMP with around ~60 invited teams.

[Brian Maher]

No, the 6-hours of unbag time is only for District Events, not District Championships.

The unbag time is allowed before two day events to make up for the lack of time to work on the robot at a practice day. This is why there is no unbag time before a three-day District Championship, which has a practice day.

[Karthik]

I would also like to know if Ontario is also moving to 2 day events (with unbag time), or will they remain 3 day events?

From the "FAQ Regarding the Ontario FIRST Robotics Competition District Transition"

The District events will be 2 competition days instead of 3 days for regional events. District events will not have a day dedicated for practice. Additionally, some of the events will run Friday and Saturday and some on Saturday and Sunday. We believe having a mix of these dates will give teams flexibility in optimizing days away from school and/or work. The District Championship at the Hershey Centre in Mississauga will be a 3 day event following the same format as a Regional event.

[cad321]

How does the 30lb out of bag limit work with the 2 day events? What would stop a team from making, say a 35lb mechanism that they attatched during their 6 hours of open bag time prior to the event, and then resealing the bag and going to competition? Is this an honours system where competitors aren't to add more than 30lbs, or perhaps another advantage to the district model?

[Knufire]

How does the 30lb out of bag limit work with the 2 day events? What would stop a team from making, say a 35lb mechanism that they attatched during their 6 hours of open bag time prior to the event, and then resealing the bag and going to competition? Is this an honours system where competitors aren't to add more than 30lbs, or perhaps another advantage to the district model?

R18 defines this very clearly. In terms of enforcement, it is the honor system. Note the last line in the second paragraph of the rule, if you fabricate something during the six hours, it does not count towards your withholding allowance. That combined with some other tricks (such as removing motors from assemblies to return them to their COTS state and putting them back on at the competition) means that you can rebuild a pretty significant amount of your robot between events.
http://i.imgur.com/SlIEwzN.png

[Kleiman]

All prices are below are in Canadian Dollars based off today's USD-CAD exchange rate of 1.28.

http://i.imgur.com/WLwCQ6a.png

For a team who currently goes to two events, there's an instant savings of over $4000.00 CAD. That savings increases further if you compare the cost of attending 3 Regionals vs 2 Districts and the discounted District Championship. Teams will be having a lot of money put right back into their pockets to start the season.

For years teams have been pushing for this transition to districts in order to take advantage of these savings. Now that FIRST Canada has made the jump it's up to the teams to give back and help make this happen.

Teams previously attending one nearby regional will now need to attend two district events just to qualify for regionals. With TDSB covering the cost of registration for one event in previous years, this means that teams who used to pay $0 to register will now pay $2500 just to participate. Add to this the extra time, planning and cost involved in having to attend at least one out of city two day event. If we qualify for regionals that's another $1500 of non-TDSB reimbursed funds and another out of town 3 day event. Now let's imagine qualifying for St. Louis.

This new system is essentially squeezing out small, but currently sustainable teams in favor of big budget, mentor heavy teams that already have robust programs. The only advantage I can see here is more rounds of play for better value. The trade off is taking away the entire FIRST experience from smaller scale teams. We were alliance captains and semi-finalists this year. Next year, I am nearly certain that our team must fold. This is deeply disappointing.

[AdamHeard]

Teams previously attending one nearby regional will now need to attend two district events just to qualify for regionals. With TDSB covering the cost of registration for one event in previous years, this means that teams who used to pay $0 to register will now pay $2500 just to participate. Add to this the extra time, planning and cost involved in having to attend at least one out of city two day event. If we qualify for regionals that's another $1500 of non-TDSB reimbursed funds and another out of town 3 day event. Now let's imagine qualifying for St. Louis.

This new system is essentially squeezing out small, but currently sustainable teams in favor of big budget, mentor heavy teams that already have robust programs. The only advantage I can see here is more rounds of play for better value. The trade off is taking away the entire FIRST experience from smaller scale teams. We were alliance captains and semi-finalists this year. Next year, I am nearly certain that our team must fold. This is deeply disappointing.

Can you breakdown your numbers? I'm not following.

[nuclearnerd]

Teams previously attending one nearby regional will now need to attend two district events just to qualify for regionals. With TDSB covering the cost of registration for one event in previous years, this means that teams who used to pay $0 to register will now pay $2500 just to participate. Add to this the extra time, planning and cost involved in having to attend at least one out of city two day event. If we qualify for regionals that's another $1500 of non-TDSB reimbursed funds and another out of town 3 day event.

OK, I'm not following these numbers either. We're not in the TDSB, but if they paid the full cost of your first regional last year, they would have given FIRST 6500 CAD to cover the 5000 USD registration. That is still less than the 7500 new fee, but it's not as drastic as you suggested. I would be shocked if the TDSB didn't amend its donations for 2017, if their goal is to make it painless for teams to participate.

As for the cost of third event (district champs / worlds) - your own chart shows it's cheaper than a second or third event under the old system, it's entirely optional, and at minimum you're getting more competition time for the same money. What's not to like?

The only scenario where the price is higher in the new system would be if you only wanted to go to one event, and then go to worlds. That's a very lucky thing to plan for. In the new system you've got a very good chance of attending three events for the same price as the above scenario, including a very nice culminating event in a venue that's much cheaper to travel to.

[GreyingJay]

This new system is essentially squeezing out small, but currently sustainable teams in favor of big budget, mentor heavy teams that already have robust programs. The only advantage I can see here is more rounds of play for better value. The trade off is taking away the entire FIRST experience from smaller scale teams. We were alliance captains and semi-finalists this year. Next year, I am nearly certain that our team must fold. This is deeply disappointing.

On the other hand, teams Toronto have been extremely fortunate to have such an arrangement with TDSB. I have really enjoyed meeting with all of the Toronto area teams and I hope that one day Ottawa will have just as many up and coming young teams. But out here we get no funding assistance from our school boards and without the momentum of having FIRST already established in the region, many FRC teams in Ottawa struggle to find sponsors too. You could count the number of active Ottawa area FRC teams on one hand, and for each of those, I can name you another team that used to run but either had to fold or switched to VEX.

Teams that formerly had to scrape together $5000USD just to go to one regional may have to work a little bit harder to get to $7500 Cdn but for that money will be able to attend two events. More value for the money and I would argue a better educational experience than just going to one competition, as you get to do the cycle of compete-iterate-improve.

And while the current and new district events are still all GTA centered, I am hoping that eventually there may be enough growth out this way that a district event in Ottawa or Kingston might be considered.

[Tem1514 Mentor]

I'm still reading about the District model but one of my main questions is;
How do you qualify for worlds.

I reading about wining points for each of the two district events then the highest teams go to a district championship. So does that mean only the winning alliance at the district champs get to go to the world champs?

What about the winning alliance at each district event, wild card slots and the list goes on?

Is there a more simple explanation somewhere as what will qualify a team for worlds?

Just as I had the regional model figured out something new. Time to learn some more.

[Brian Maher]

I'm still reading about the District model but one of my main questions is;
How do you qualify for worlds.

I reading about wining points for each of the two district events then the highest teams go to a district championship. So does that mean only the winning alliance at the district champs get to go to the world champs?

What about the winning alliance at each district event, wild card slots and the list goes on?

Is there a more simple explanation somewhere as what will qualify a team for worlds?

Just as I had the regional model figured out something new. Time to learn some more.

Individual district events do not qualify teams for Champs. Their purpose is to award district points to teams. The top teams in the district based on the total points earned at their first two events in the district, and district event Chairman's winners, will advance to the District Championship. Here, points are awarded using the same criteria as district events, but with a multiplier of 3. This places a great emphasis on the District Championship.

Your district will receive an allocation of CMP slots proportional to the percentage of FRC teams that are in your district, though pre-qualified (Hall of Fame, Legacy, previous year CMP Winners/EI) teams do not count toward or against this allocation. Teams earn these spots by:

Winning District Championship (3 or 4)
District Championship Chairman's Award (1-3)
District Championship Engineering Inspiration Award (1-3)
District Championship Rookie All Star (1)
Qualifying at a regional (which does count against the district allocation)

This will not take up all the spots. The remaining spots are given to the top ranked teams by district points. There are no wildcards per-se, but any team who qualifies through multiple Regional/DCMP qualifying awards will convert the extra to another points slot. Any team who qualifies for Champs within the district and declines will create a new points slot.

For additional info, see Section 7.4 of the Admin Manual (https://firstfrc.blob.core.windows.net/frc2016manuals/AdminManual/FRC-2016-admin-manual-07.pdf).

[Kleiman]

Can you breakdown your numbers? I'm not following.

There is little complexity to the numbers.

Previous years in TDSB = $0 for regional (which is local for all TDSB schools)

Now = $7500 - $5000 covered by TDSB = $2500 to qualify for regionals
This includes a trip out of town (busing + hotel)

If we qualify for regionals that's $3000 - $1500 covered by TDSB = $1500

That's $4000 plus two out of town events
(To be clear the numbers covered by TDSB were sent to team mentors with the announcement of moving to the district model)

The bar is raised significantly higher for Toronto teams to participate. If teams think this will lead to program growth, I can't imagine how.
Teams in areas outside of Toronto that struggle to attend one event will surely not be able to pay more and go to three.

More plays for better value vs more small scale and new teams participating... Seems like a no brainer trade off to me.

For the record, we were regional semi finalists this year who may be priced out of FIRST for next year.

[AdamHeard]

There is little complexity to the numbers.

Previous years in TDSB = $0 for regional (which is local for all TDSB schools)

Now = $7500 - $5000 covered by TDSB = $2500 to qualify for regionals
This includes a trip out of town (busing + hotel)

If we qualify for regionals that's $3000 - $1500 covered by TDSB = $1500

That's $4000 plus two out of town events

The bar is raised significantly higher for Toronto teams to participate. If teams think this will lead to program growth, I can't imagine how.
Teams in areas outside of Toronto that struggle to attend one event will surely not be able to pay more and go to three.

More plays for better value vs more small scale and new teams participating... Seems like a no brainer trade off to me.

For the record, we were regional semi finalists this year who may be priced out of FIRST for next year.

When you say regionals, do you mean the District Championship?

Is $2500 a prohibitive amount to fund raise?

Is it possible that TDSB could increase their payment to cover the new base registration once they're made aware that is now the new minimum fee?

[mman1506]

There is little complexity to the numbers.

Previous years in TDSB = $0 for regional (which is local for all TDSB schools)

Now = $7500 - $5000 covered by TDSB = $2500 to qualify for regionals
This includes a trip out of town (busing + hotel)

If we qualify for regionals that's $3000 - $1500 covered by TDSB = $1500

That's $4000 plus two out of town events
(To be clear the numbers covered by TDSB were sent to team mentors with the announcement of moving to the district model)

The bar is raised significantly higher for Toronto teams to participate. If teams think this will lead to program growth, I can't imagine how.
Teams in areas outside of Toronto that struggle to attend one event will surely not be able to pay more and go to three.

More plays for better value vs more small scale and new teams participating... Seems like a no brainer trade off to me.

For the record, we were regional semi finalists this year who may be priced out of FIRST for next year.

Remember that Karthiks numbers are in CAD. If we were still in the regional system the TDSB would have to pay out 6400 CAD to each team for registration. The additional cost is only 1100 CAD (roughly) for tons of additional value. As a fellow TDSB team I'd expect that TDSB would step up there contribution. FIRST Canada and the TDSB have a strong relationship and it has likely already been discussed.

The fact of the matter is that the TDSBs contribution is already very generous and we are already very lucky to receive any money at all. Very few school districts offer similar support.

[Kleiman]

OK, I'm not following these numbers either. We're not in the TDSB, but if they paid the full cost of your first regional last year, they would have given FIRST 6500 CAD to cover the 5000 USD registration. That is still less than the 7500 new fee, but it's not as drastic as you suggested. I would be shocked if the TDSB didn't amend its donations for 2017, if their goal is to make it painless for teams to participate.

As for the cost of third event (district champs / worlds) - your own chart shows it's cheaper than a second or third event under the old system, it's entirely optional, and at minimum you're getting more competition time for the same money. What's not to like?

The only scenario where the price is higher in the new system would be if you only wanted to go to one event, and then go to worlds. That's a very lucky thing to plan for. In the new system you've got a very good chance of attending three events for the same price as the above scenario, including a very nice culminating event in a venue that's much cheaper to travel to.


Prepare to be as shocked as I was then. TDSB is providing $5000 CAD for the district events and $1500 for regionals.

We don't consider it a "lucky thing" to plan to go to one regional, we consider it a sustainable financial and time commitment and it has enriched our school tremendously.

Attending 3 events likely means the death of our program. I am scrambling to keep my program alive that I have poured my heart into for our two year existence.

Wealthy teams with lots of mentors that already go to many events will enjoy a savings of a few thousand dollars. I would rather see less matches accommodating more teams, rather than more matches that fewer teams can afford and get to.

[AdamHeard]

Prepare to be as shocked as I was then. TDSB is providing $5000 CAD for the district events and $1500 for regionals.

We don't consider it a "lucky thing" to plan to go to one regional, we consider it a sustainable financial and time commitment and it has enriched our school tremendously.

Attending 3 events likely means the death of our program. I am scrambling to keep my program alive that I have poured my heart into for our two year existence.

Wealthy teams with lots of mentors that already go to many events will enjoy a savings of a few thousand dollars. I would rather see less matches accommodating more teams, rather than more matches that fewer teams can afford and get to.

What am I missing, why not just attend two district events then?

[Kleiman]

Remember that Karthiks numbers are in CAD. If we were still in the regional system the TDSB would have to pay out 6400 CAD to each team for registration. The additional cost is only 1100 CAD (roughly) for tons of additional value. As a fellow TDSB team I'd expect that TDSB would step up there contribution. FIRST Canada and the TDSB have a strong relationship and it has likely already been discussed.

The fact of the matter is that the TDSBs contribution is already very generous and we are already very lucky to receive any money at all. Very few school districts offer similar support.

We are very grateful to the TDSB. We owe our existence to them as do many teams. Our existence with their generosity was possible. That is likely not the case anymore. Even with their generous donations we are now priced out of this phenomenal program. I am sure that students will benefit from more competition events. The trade off is added cost and time that many will not be able to afford. It is a trade off of course. My values lean toward less cost and more participants over more cost for more game time.

[Kleiman]

What am I missing, why not just attend two district events then?

You are suggesting that we pay an additional $2500 plus the cost of travel and hotel and if we qualify for regionals we simply say no and end our season?

Possible, but not as easy a sell as you imply.

I also just read your other post, and it is surprising to me that you don't think $2500 is a prohibitive amount to raise on top of our operating costs. It is as if you ignored the fact too that we are talking about $4000 of added cost just to participate plus the added cost of travel and hotels. So yes, it is prohibitive. You may also be interested to know that this would be our 3rd season meaning that it is the first year that our rookie grant money expires. We made a sustainable fundraising plan for an annual budget of roughly $2500. That would have been enough to play at one Toronto regional with the gracious support of the TDSB. If we qualified for St. Louis, we would have had to earn our way there.

[Michael Corsetto]

You are suggesting that we pay an additional $2500 plus the cost of travel and hotel and if we qualify for regionals we simply say no and end our season?

Possible, but not as easy a sell as you imply.

Out of curiosity, what would you have done if you qualified for World CMP in 2016? Would you attend?

[PayneTrain]

You are suggesting that we pay an additional $2500 plus the cost of travel and hotel and if we qualify for regionals we simply say no and end our season?

Possible, but not as easy a sell as you imply.

I also just read your other post, and it is surprising to me that you don't think $2500 is a prohibitive amount to raise on top of our operating costs. It is as if you ignored the fact too that we are talking about $4000 of added cost just to participate plus the added cost of travel and hotels. So yes, it is prohibitive. You may also be interested to know that this would be our 3rd season meaning that it is the first year that our rookie grant money expires. We made a sustainable fundraising plan for an annual budget of roughly $2500. That would have been enough to play at one Toronto regional with the gracious support of the TDSB. If we qualified for St. Louis, we would have had to earn our way there.

I assume Adam is ignorant to the financial situation of your greater Toronto area school considering he lives in California. The variables surrounding the capacity to raise an additional $2500 over the course of the year for Adam's program may be easier than where you live. I'm not going to pretend if it is or not because I live in Virginia.

I also would be remiss to point out that I am not aware of many people in the FRC community that believes a team can operate with under $7500 of revenue in the first place. I hope that this is not an illusion that people are telling new and potential teams. Most teams in the United States receive money for their programs with a large amount of corporate sponsorship because of the high coasts of participating in FRC.

[Kleiman]

Out of curiosity, what would you have done if you qualified for World CMP in 2016? Would you attend?

I briefly addressed this in my previous comment.

If we qualified in our second season participating:
a) I would have been very surprised (though it almost happened)
b) we would have raised funds specifically for that event. They would have to earn their way there
c) I understand that since it is so few teams that go, the TDSB could potentially have provided additional support.

In reality I was sweating when my team made it to the semi finals. If we became a consistent champion caliber team, I would consider increasing my annual fundraising goals.

[rwodonnell]

You are suggesting that we pay an additional $2500 plus the cost of travel and hotel and if we qualify for regionals we simply say no and end our season?

Possible, but not as easy a sell as you imply.

Like others, I think, I am struggling with your numbers, since for us in N.E., the district model has made things better financially, but since I don't follow the details of the Toronto school board as you've laid them out, I'll trust that it really costs $2500 more to participate in the two district events versus the one regional.

But you have mentioned a number of times the cost of travel, and from what I can see, that should not be a problem. Here's a map (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lBQ3YYTm7oE-3OeIleJEgPxHCHI&usp=sharing) I made of the Ontario district events. The District Championships (note: not "regional") is the green marker. I'm not sure where exactly in Toronto you are located, but I would think that the events at Ryerson University, Durham College and McMaster University would all be within an hour, give or take a few minutes. Waterloo and Georgian College would add maybe a half hour, but still commutable. Aren't these the same locations you had before the district system, plus a few others?

[Aren Siekmeier]

I briefly addressed this in my previous comment.

If we qualified in our second season participating:
a) I would have been very surprised (though it almost happened)
b) we would have raised funds specifically for that event. They would have to earn their way there
c) I understand that since it is so few teams that go, the TDSB could potentially have provided additional support.

In reality I was sweating when my team made it to the semi finals. If we became a consistent champion caliber team, I would consider increasing my annual fundraising goals.
In reverse order:
c) Sounds like this applies to district champs (what you seem to be calling regionals) - TDSB offers an additional 1500 CAD toward that event.
b) very well could apply to district champs as well.
a) You are however more likely (less surprised) to qualify for district champs compared to champs.

Perhaps if the team expects to qualify for district champs, now would be a good time to increase annual fundraising goals.

[PayneTrain]

Like others, I think, I am struggling with your numbers, since for us in N.E., the district model has made things better financially, but since I don't follow the details of the Toronto school board as you've laid them out, I'll trust that it really costs $2500 more to participate in the two district events versus the one regional.

But you have mentioned a number of times the cost of travel, and from what I can see, that should not be a problem. Here's a map (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lBQ3YYTm7oE-3OeIleJEgPxHCHI&usp=sharing) I made of the Ontario district events. The District Championships (note: not "regional") is the green marker. I'm not sure where exactly in Toronto you are located, but I would think that the events at Ryerson University, Durham College and McMaster University would all be within an hour, give or take a few minutes. Waterloo and Georgian College would add maybe a half hour, but still commutable. Aren't these the same locations you had before the district system, plus a few others?

I am not the poster in question but #5699 is based out of Forest Hill Collegiate Institute, a school located in the eponymous neighborhood Forest Hill in the north side of Toronto. There are two District Events and the DCMP within what Google estimates to be an hour drive.

[mman1506]

You are suggesting that we pay an additional $2500 plus the cost of travel and hotel and if we qualify for regionals we simply say no and end our season?

Possible, but not as easy a sell as you imply.

I also just read your other post, and it is surprising to me that you don't think $2500 is a prohibitive amount to raise on top of our operating costs. It is as if you ignored the fact too that we are talking about $4000 of added cost just to participate plus the added cost of travel and hotels. So yes, it is prohibitive. You may also be interested to know that this would be our 3rd season meaning that it is the first year that our rookie grant money expires. We made a sustainable fundraising plan for an annual budget of roughly $2500. That would have been enough to play at one Toronto regional with the gracious support of the TDSB. If we qualified for St. Louis, we would have had to earn our way there.

You can compete at Waterloo, Ryerson, Durham College, Hershey Center (District Champs) with only a school bus driving back and forth. We almost always do that. According to FIRST Canada there is also an additional event in the works that will be in the GTA.

[Kleiman]

Like others, I think, I am struggling with your numbers, since for us in N.E., the district model has made things better financially, but since I don't follow the details of the Toronto school board as you've laid them out, I'll trust that it really costs $2500 more to participate in the two district events versus the one regional.

But you have mentioned a number of times the cost of travel, and from what I can see, that should not be a problem. Here's a map (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lBQ3YYTm7oE-3OeIleJEgPxHCHI&usp=sharing) I made of the Ontario district events. The District Championships (note: not "regional") is the green marker. I'm not sure where exactly in Toronto you are located, but I would think that the events at Ryerson University, Durham College and McMaster University would all be within an hour, give or take a few minutes. Waterloo and Georgian College would add maybe a half hour, but still commutable. Aren't these the same locations you had before the district system, plus a few others?

It cost $2 per student to take the subway to the event downtown. No bus rental, and the robot goes in my car. A rush hour drive to Mississauga, Hamilton or Oshawa to arrive by 8am is well over an hour each way. You are correct though, it may be possible to avoid the need for a hotel, but I have not looked into these details yet. It is likely more expensive to go out of town and certainly more complicated logistically. I did not intend to overexaggerate the added burden of the new model for us. The most prohibitive part is the added cost of registration without a doubt.

[Knufire]

It cost $2 per student to take the subway to the event downtown. No bus rental, and the robot goes in my car. A rush hour drive to Mississauga, Hamilton or Oshawa to arrive by 8am is well over an hour each way. You are correct though, it may be possible to avoid the need for a hotel, but I have not looked into these details yet. It is likely more expensive to go out of town and certainly more complicated logistically. I did not intend to overexaggerate the added burden of the new model for us. The most prohibitive part is the added cost of registration without a doubt.

In the US, the team registration cost is the same for teams in the regional and district system ($5000 USD). It is possible that your woes are due to the weak Canadian dollar and TDSB reallocating where their contribution goes.

[Lil' Lavery]

I briefly addressed this in my previous comment.

If we qualified in our second season participating:
a) I would have been very surprised (though it almost happened)
b) we would have raised funds specifically for that event. They would have to earn their way there
c) I understand that since it is so few teams that go, the TDSB could potentially have provided additional support.

In reality I was sweating when my team made it to the semi finals. If we became a consistent champion caliber team, I would consider increasing my annual fundraising goals.

Why not raise funds specifically for your district championship event, should you qualify?

[GreyingJay]

I wish other school boards would give funding assistance like TDSB does. Maybe we should approach our board and say "why not here too?"

We will be doing our own fundraising, sponsorship, and collecting student fees, to cover our ~$7500 CAD cost for the two district events, and the additional ~$3000 CAD to go to district champs should we qualify. The way we see it, 2 district events + district champs (for a total of 3 competitions) is about the same price as it was to go to two regionals before. Actually slightly less given the current CAD vs USD. Granted this isn't factoring the extra transportation/hotel cost for the third competition.

(And if we are fortunate enough to qualify for Champs -- that would be our fourth competition event -- I'm sure we could do additional fundraising!)

Students who go to competitions are responsible for covering their share of the hotel and transportation costs. We drive down in parent-driven cars and stay in a hotel. I wish taking the subway was a possibility!

We are getting pretty good at doing bottle drives. They are easy to organize, and using a public drop-off spot gives additional exposure. Each time we do one we can net $800-1000. We have a lot of other ideas for fundraisers, but this is a staple.

[Mr V]

I wish other school boards would give funding assistance like TDSB does. Maybe we should approach our board and say "why not here too?"

Yes you should, I doubt that the TDSB just decided to start funding teams w/o someone asking. Connect with other teams in your district, find out the right person on the school district to approach and give it a shot.

Or bypass your local school board and go right to the provincial government.

Our state level school administration has grants for FIRST teams and that was all started by a team heading to the capitol and talking to the law makers and the office of the superintendent of public instruction.

The worst that happens is they tell you no, the best that happens is that your team in others in your area get funding.

[Karthik]

Yes you should, I doubt that the TDSB just decided to start funding teams w/o someone asking. Connect with other teams in your district, find out the right person on the school district to approach and give it a shot.

Or bypass your local school board and go right to the provincial government.


In terms of the Provincial Government, FIRST Canada is already supported by the Ontario Ministry of Education as a platinum sponsor, providing assistance to events and teams. The incredible growth that FIRST has seen in Ontario for the past few years would not have been possible without this level of government support.

[Monochron]

I also just read your other post, and it is surprising to me that you don't think $2500 is a prohibitive amount to raise on top of our operating costs. It is as if you ignored the fact too that we are talking about $4000 of added cost just to participate plus the added cost of travel and hotels.

I think this may be where people are getting confused. In the States two District competitions are the same cost $5,000 USD as one Regional competition. So people see your difficulty as "only needing to raise whatever isn't covered by TDSB". For teams without a TDSB to support them, we typically have to raise $5,000 plus robot costs, travel, team expenses each year. Perhaps if you explained how your situation differs from that it would help people to understand. Is it only the difference between what TDSB provides and the total cost?

[gp2013]

There is little complexity to the numbers.

Previous years in TDSB = $0 for regional (which is local for all TDSB schools)

Now = $7500 - $5000 covered by TDSB = $2500 to qualify for regionals
This includes a trip out of town (busing + hotel)

If we qualify for regionals that's $3000 - $1500 covered by TDSB = $1500

That's $4000 plus two out of town events
(To be clear the numbers covered by TDSB were sent to team mentors with the announcement of moving to the district model)

The bar is raised significantly higher for Toronto teams to participate. If teams think this will lead to program growth, I can't imagine how.
Teams in areas outside of Toronto that struggle to attend one event will surely not be able to pay more and go to three.

More plays for better value vs more small scale and new teams participating... Seems like a no brainer trade off to me.

For the record, we were regional semi finalists this year who may be priced out of FIRST for next year.

It may be that this is a good opportunity to reevaluate your funding model. As a team with zero school board support, we, like 2706 and nearly every other FRC team, have to somehow generate tens of thousands of dollars each year. As a largely rural team from a community of 1200 you can imagine the difficulties.

Reach out to other teams to see how they do it. Now is the perfect time to be seeking funding. I suggest starting with local service groups like Rotary, Legions, Lions, etc. Not only do they support initiaitives like this that serve youth, doing the presentation gives your team members incredibly valuable public speaking practice.

Local industry is another great opportunity.
One benefit we found of having industry sponsors is that once you get them onboard and they see the value of yhe program they start to hire your students or provide coop or internship opportunities.

Get parents on board to lead up the fundraising efforts so your workload doesn't increase.

Once your community starts to see the value of the program, they will be incredibly supportive.

And if something were to happen to your TDSB funding you wouldn't be left without a program.

As for a second district event...Head north on the 400 (rush hour is going the opposite way) and come join us at Georgian College in Barrie!

[WelderManiac]

This new system is essentially squeezing out small, but currently sustainable teams in favor of big budget, mentor heavy teams that already have robust programs. The only advantage I can see here is more rounds of play for better value. The trade off is taking away the entire FIRST experience from smaller scale teams. We were alliance captains and semi-finalists this year. Next year, I am nearly certain that our team must fold. This is deeply disappointing.

Disappointing indeed. I can perfectly understand how some little teams are going to benefit from this, due to the fact that their events are easily accessible. For teams like mine, our budget will have to nearly double to accommodate traveling to two events.

It's deeply saddening that FIRST Canada has (seemingly) thrown their cares about less powerful teams to the wind to fit in with places like Michigan and Indiana. Although I've never attended, I'm sure that districts are awesome; but to many teams in Ontario, they're completely unsustainable.

[Karthik]

- In 2016, 137 Ontario teams played 197 times before Champs, and spent $1,184,000.00 CAD in registration fees. This works out to $6,010.15 per play. (This was assuming an exchange rate of 1.28, which was a low estimate)
- In 2017, 137 Ontario teams will play at least 334 times before Champs, and will spend $1,207,500.00 CAD in registration fees. This works out to $3,615.327 per play.

$6000 vs. $3600 per play on average. That's a huge cost savings for Ontario teams. Also, a radical increase in the amount of plays teams will be getting. This means teams will have more chances to showcase and compete with robots, while also having more opportunities to learn and iterate. I do feel sympathy for the teams from remote areas who have incredible travel hardships to deal with. But hopefully FIRST Canada and our community can come up with solutions to help these teams be sustainable in our new model.

[PayneTrain]

Disappointing indeed. I can perfectly understand how some little teams are going to benefit from this, due to the fact that their events are easily accessible. For teams like mine, our budget will have to nearly double to accommodate traveling to two events.

It's deeply saddening that FIRST Canada has (seemingly) thrown their cares about less powerful teams to the wind to fit in with places like Michigan and Indiana. Although I've never attended, I'm sure that districts are awesome; but to many teams in Ontario, they're completely unsustainable.

FRC Team 4732 attended the Greater Toronto East Regional last year and played 10 matches. The Greater Toronto East Regional site is now hosting a district event. Each district event guarantees 12 matches.

Your team is welcome to only attend one district event and get an experience that is likely very similar to the one you experienced last year, but with two more matches and 6 hours of bag time. By most metrics, you are getting more value out of the exact same event in the 2017 season that you did in the 2016 season.

On top of that, you also have the option to go to a second event at no additional registration cost. I do encourage all teams to go to events that they have essentially already paid for, especially since you will be allotted 6 hours of bag time between your first and second event and 12 additional matches. However, I don't expect Shawn Lim or any other staff member of FIRST Canada to put a gun to your head and show up for the second event.

I do understand that if you approach the the change from regionals to districts as a system that provides a $4000+ barrier between you and one of the postseason expos, you might be upset. However, the chances of merit qualifying off of one event hovers around 5%.

[cbale2000]

- In 2016, 137 Ontario teams played 197 times before Champs, and spent $1,184,000.00 CAD in registration fees. This works out to $6,010.15 per play. (This was assuming an exchange rate of 1.28, which was a low estimate)
- In 2017, 137 Ontario teams will play at least 334 times before Champs, and will spend $1,207,500.00 CAD in registration fees. This works out to $3,615.327 per play.

$6000 vs. $3600 per play on average.

I don't think anyone's arguing that District registration fees aren't a better value than regionals, just that in the particular case of Ontario the total cost for initial registration will be higher with districts than it is with the current regional system.

When most regions move to districts, they maintain the standard registration fee associated with the previous regional system (~$5000). Out of curiosity, what was the rational for Ontario to raise the price beyond that? IMO it makes it much easier to sell districts if the only additional cost is travel expenses due to attending an additional event (or an overall cost savings if your team previously went to 2 events anyways).

[GreyingJay]

I don't think anyone's arguing that District registration fees aren't a better value than regionals, just that in the particular case of Ontario the total cost for initial registration will be higher with districts than it is with the current regional system.

When most regions move to districts, they maintain the standard registration fee associated with the previous regional system (~$5000). Out of curiosity, what was the rational for Ontario to raise the price beyond that? IMO it makes it much easier to sell districts if the only additional cost is travel expenses due to attending an additional event (or an overall cost savings if your team previously went to 2 events anyways).

The cost to register last year was $5000 USD for one regional. (And unfortunately last November when our fees were due our dollar was at its worst in a long time against the USD, at about 70 cents.)

The cost to register for Ontario districts is said to be "around $7500 CAD". This is a bit more than $5000 USD converted to Canadian funds at today's rates (which would sit closer to $6500). We will be paying in Canadian dollars and FIRST Canada will assume any risk of fluctuations in the currency.

So, either they've made a slight increase to absorb some of the risk and expense, or the $7500 figure will be adjusted to account for the actual conversion rate closer to the time fees are due. They've said to expect some variance and that $7500 is not a hard figure, so maybe this is much ado over nothing?

[Jon Stratis]

- In 2016, 137 Ontario teams played 197 times before Champs, and spent $1,184,000.00 CAD in registration fees. This works out to $6,010.15 per play. (This was assuming an exchange rate of 1.28, which was a low estimate)
- In 2017, 137 Ontario teams will play at least 334 times before Champs, and will spend $1,207,500.00 CAD in registration fees. This works out to $3,615.327 per play.

$6000 vs. $3600 per play on average. That's a huge cost savings for Ontario teams. Also, a radical increase in the amount of plays teams will be getting. This means teams will have more chances to showcase and compete with robots, while also having more opportunities to learn and iterate. I do feel sympathy for the teams from remote areas who have incredible travel hardships to deal with. But hopefully FIRST Canada and our community can come up with solutions to help these teams be sustainable in our new model.

You know, there's really nothing like seeing someone take an overall cost increase and sell it as a cost savings. From my point of view, there's a cost increase of $33,500 CAD in registration fees. I think it would be more fair to say that the cost of registration for a second play has dramatically decreased, but that second play is now mandatory. Before you had around 60 teams go for a second play (I don't know how many may have played more than 2, but lets assume none did for a minute), which means 77 teams did not go for a second play.

My question for those 77 teams is... why not? Was is registration cost alone? Total cost including travel? Time out of school/work? Lack of dedication/desire? For those 77 teams, does this change in pricing structure and event locations eliminate their reason for not attending two events, or cause them more headaches than they previously had?

The simple fact is, a change like this does make competition cheaper for some teams... but it also makes it more expensive for others. Are those others prepared for the additional fundraising needed?

[GreyingJay]

You know, there's really nothing like seeing someone take an overall cost increase and sell it as a cost savings. From my point of view, there's a cost increase of $33,500 CAD in registration fees. I think it would be more fair to say that the cost of registration for a second play has dramatically decreased, but that second play is now mandatory. Before you had around 60 teams go for a second play (I don't know how many may have played more than 2, but lets assume none did for a minute), which means 77 teams did not go for a second play.


Not accounting for the fact that FIRST Canada has said that the $7500 fee is approximation, and could be lower to account for exchange rates this fall, a $33,500 increase divided by 137 Ontario teams would work out to an increase of $244 per team.

[Jon Stratis]

Not accounting for the fact that FIRST Canada has said that the $7500 fee is approximation, and could be lower to account for exchange rates this fall, a $33,500 increase divided by 137 Ontario teams would work out to an increase of $244 per team.

But unfortunately the math really isn't that simple. Teams that attended multiple regionals previously shouldered much more of the burden willingly, while now those teams that didn't still have to pay an increased fee, much more than $244. It doesn't change the fact that there are 77 teams that now are being forced to pay for and attend two events. And while the comparison that's been posted of registration costs is nice, it does not take into account the total cost encountered per team for this change (additional travel costs, time out of school/work, for example).

CD is overrun with teams that regularly attend multiple events, and underrepresented by teams that struggle to attend one. I'm wondering, with all the different areas going to districts, has anyone done an analysis of teams that drop out the first year or two after the transition?

[Knufire]

But unfortunately the math really isn't that simple. Teams that attended multiple regionals previously shouldered much more of the burden willingly, while now those teams that didn't still have to pay an increased fee, much more than $244. It doesn't change the fact that there are 77 teams that now are being forced to pay for and attend two events. And while the comparison that's been posted of registration costs is nice, it does not take into account the total cost encountered per team for this change (additional travel costs, time out of school/work, for example).

CD is overrun with teams that regularly attend multiple events, and underrepresented by teams that struggle to attend one. I'm wondering, with all the different areas going to districts, has anyone done an analysis of teams that drop out the first year or two after the transition?

Teams aren't forced to attend their second event. There are a small percentage of teams in districts that do only attend one event.

Considering the US registration fee is the same for districts and regionals, I'm pretty sure that the increase in Canadian registration fees are due to factors other than the system switch. Of course we can't say this for sure without information from somebody on FIRST Canada staff.

I will say (and from what I've seen, many of the people who support districts also support this opinion) that teams who struggle to attend one event (and/or struggle to field a robot) would often be better served by switching to a program with lower barriers to entry (FTC/VEX) as they're missing out on a significant part of the experience (being able to compete, iterate, and compete again).

I concur with the need for analysis though. Always better to make informed decisions.

[GreyingJay]

Yes, I hope this is truly going to be a net positive for Ontario.

One big assumption I'm making is that this "around $7500 CAD" vs $5000 USD will resolve such that the costs work out to be the same - as has been the case for the US districts.

If so, then for many teams, there is either a positive impact or no impact.

If you already paid for and attended two Ontario regionals, then you can go to the same two events, but you've effectively only paid for one. Two events for the price of one.

If you only attended one Ontario regional, either due to cost or travel distance, you can still go to the same event for the same cost, and not attend a second district event. One event for the price of one. So you don't gain anything but you didn't lose anything either.

If you are a "top 60" Ontario team, then you will need to come up with "around $3000" on top of the "around $7500" to attend district champs, plus the added trip costs. However, if you were a team that previously attended two regionals anyway, then this added cost is still less than what you paid last year (minus the cost of a third trip) so you're getting 3 events for the price of 2.

Where it will hurt is a "top 60" team that only went to one regional last year, who will now be expected to pay for a trip to district championships, or forego their spot.

Where it will also hurt is any Ontario team that typically did not attend Ontario regionals due to distance and instead went to a regional elsewhere (say NY state). They will not have the option to do so this year. I do feel for those teams. We are kind of in that spot since Ottawa is closer to Montreal than it is Toronto. We were seriously considering going to the Montreal regional next year but that is no longer an option (unless we went after two district events).

Any World Champs expenses remain unchanged on top of all these competition expenses.

[PayneTrain]

Mandatory second play? If a coach doesn't want to go to a second event, are the board members of FIRST Canada going to put a horse head in their bed? I didn't see that in the letter at all.

[scottandme]

For discussion's sake:

136 teams competed in 2016 (1 showing as registered but didn't compete)
73 attended 1 regional
53 attended 2 regionals
10 attended 3 regionals

30 attended World Champs
8 attended 1 regional (11.0% yield)
16 attended 2 regionals (30.2% yield)
6 attended 3 regionals (60.0% yield)

Of the 8 single event teams, 5 qualified via RAS. The others were 3rd pick event winners (2 from the same event - via a backup being called).

As mentioned - if you only want to attend one event - you'll be able to continue as before. Most Ontario events were small to begin with, so you'll barely notice the difference.

Yes - there's no single event route to qualify for World Champs, but single event teams are unlikely to qualify under the current system. Last year only 3 out of the 65 veteran single event teams qualified for WCMP. You probably have a better shot via the waitlist.

[notmattlythgoe]

For discussion's sake:

136 teams competed in 2016 (1 showing as registered but didn't compete)
73 attended 1 regional
53 attended 2 regionals
10 attended 3 regionals

30 attended World Champs
8 attended 1 regional (11.0% yield)
16 attended 2 regionals (30.2% yield)
6 attended 3 regionals (60.0% yield)

Of the 8 single event teams, 5 qualified via RAS. The others were 3rd pick event winners (2 from the same event - via a backup being called).

As mentioned - if you only want to attend one event - you'll be able to continue as before. Most Ontario events were small to begin with, so you'll barely notice the difference.

Yes - there's no single event route to qualify for World Champs, but single event teams are unlikely to qualify under the current system. Last year only 3 out of the 65 veteran single event teams qualified for WCMP. You probably have a better shot via the waitlist.

If a team is complaining about now "having" to attend multiple events because it is more expensive and at the same time complaining that they can't qualify for the championship from a single event they need to look at their priorities. If a team can't afford to attend a second district event they can't afford to go to the championship.

[Ian Curtis]

CD is overrun with teams that regularly attend multiple events, and underrepresented by teams that struggle to attend one. I'm wondering, with all the different areas going to districts, has anyone done an analysis of teams that drop out the first year or two after the transition?

I would love to see this data as well. Anecdotally as a member of a struggling one regional team, having two district events to compete & improve has worked wonders for our sustainability. I believe that was part of the theory behind the District model.

[Lil' Lavery]

If a team can't afford to attend a second district event they can't afford to go to the championship.

I don't know if I'd make such a generalized blanket statement. Often times there are grants and sponsors who automatically pay additional funding for FRC teams who qualify for Championship. We had two different sponsors kick us extra cash last year based on us qualifying for the FRC Championship. Similarly, it's a lot easier to raise funds in general with a tangible and easily translated objective like "Help Canada High Robotics Team get to the Championship!"

[notmattlythgoe]

I don't know if I'd make such a generalized blanket statement. Often times there are grants and sponsors who automatically pay additional funding for FRC teams who qualify for Championship. We had two different sponsors kick us extra cash last year based on us qualifying for the FRC Championship. Similarly, it's a lot easier to raise funds in general with a tangible and easily translated objective like "Help Canada High Robotics Team get to the Championship!"

You mean like "Help Canada High Robotics get to their second event!" or "Help Canada High Robotics get to their District Championship!".

[Lil' Lavery]

You mean like "Help Canada High Robotics get to their second event!" or "Help Canada High Robotics get to their District Championship!".

The latter definitely plays, but I'm unsure if the former has the same appeal to outsiders.

My general point is that there does exist a subset of teams that can attend a local event and the occasional FRC Championship when they qualify, but who may struggle to attend additional travel events outside of those without changes to their funding model. I'm not arguing those teams have to be catered to, but simply stating they do exist.

[Aren Siekmeier]

You know, there's really nothing like seeing someone take an overall cost increase and sell it as a cost savings. From my point of view, there's a cost increase of $33,500 CAD in registration fees. I think it would be more fair to say that the cost of registration for a second play has dramatically decreased, but that second play is now mandatory. Before you had around 60 teams go for a second play (I don't know how many may have played more than 2, but lets assume none did for a minute), which means 77 teams did not go for a second play.

My question for those 77 teams is... why not? Was is registration cost alone? Total cost including travel? Time out of school/work? Lack of dedication/desire? For those 77 teams, does this change in pricing structure and event locations eliminate their reason for not attending two events, or cause them more headaches than they previously had?

The simple fact is, a change like this does make competition cheaper for some teams... but it also makes it more expensive for others. Are those others prepared for the additional fundraising needed?

23,500 CAD, though your point stands.

It's a relatively small price increase (~$200 per team) for a huge gain in playing time, event count, season length, that kind of stuff. Granted this increase in price is probably not distributed equally.

I think everyone agrees about the positives. Some argue that its easily worth the marginal price increase. Others disagree.

[Aren Siekmeier]

Considering the US registration fee is the same for districts and regionals, I'm pretty sure that the increase in Canadian registration fees are due to factors other than the system switch. Of course we can't say this for sure without information from somebody on FIRST Canada staff.

I'd venture to say it's similar to PNW's financial arrangement. FIRST tells FIRST Canada what they need in "participation fees" to cover the revenue they're counting on from Ontario normally (under regional system), or something similar (FIRST has a number of full time employees and support services they provide, as well as, you know, the game). Then it's up to FIRST Canada to raise money, collect registration fees, etc. to cover both this fee to FIRST and their own operating costs. In this way teams pay to their local district organizer and don't need to do a transaction with FIRST, which would also facilitate payment in CAD as mentioned. The higher fee is likely a result of how FIRST Canada is able to split their costs between donor support and the teams.

I could be totally off though.

[PayneTrain]

The latter definitely plays, but I'm unsure if the former has the same appeal to outsiders.

My general point is that there does exist a subset of teams that can attend a local event and the occasional FRC Championship when they qualify, but who may struggle to attend additional travel events outside of those without changes to their funding model. I'm not arguing those teams have to be catered to, but simply stating they do exist.

You don't have to be argued whether or not they should be catered to because they are via the waitlist.

[FrankJ]

You don't have to be argued whether or not they should be catered to because they are via the waitlist.

Getting a slot via the wait list doesn't help if you cannot afford to go. The wait list caters to teams that don't otherwise qualify. It doesn't take into account funding specifically. The core pillars of First is to make sure the program is diverse and affordable. I wouldn't call it catering to the low resource teams, but implied in there finding a way to make it affordable.

[PayneTrain]

Getting a slot via the wait list doesn't help if you cannot afford to go. The wait list caters to teams that don't otherwise qualify. It doesn't take into account funding specifically. The core pillars of First is to make sure the program is diverse and affordable. I wouldn't call it catering to the low resource teams, but implied in there finding a way to make it affordable.

I'm confused; are you responding to me within the context of the discussion or are you just pointing out something incredibly obvious for personal entertainment?

Is the Championship Event supposed to be catering to low-resource teams ie making it free or something? The idea that I was sorta playing off of Sean is that the waitlist can be used as a tool between the two postseason events for low resource teams to save up money and go to these events when they are prepared financially.

[Lil' Lavery]

You don't have to be argued whether or not they should be catered to because they are via the waitlist.

What does the wait list have to do with discussions of sustainable funding when it comes to district registration fees? The "catering to" comment was in regards to how Ontario structures its registration process.

[Kleiman]

I am quite surprised at the direction this discussion has gone.

I am not sure how it is valuable to mathematically determine the overall additional cost to "one-event teams" distributed over all participating teams to imply that I am taking a hit of a few hundred dollars.

I don't think I could have been more clear earlier with my numbers, but I will try one last time to reiterate and hopefully return to a meaningful discussion.

In the regional model it cost $5000 USD to play once and potentially qualify for worlds.

The Toronto District School Board saw the deep rooted value in this remarkable program and invested heavily in getting more teams to be able to participate. They agreed to pay the full $5000 USD (~$6400 CAD) registration fee for every team for a single annual event. Rookie grants from FIRST easily cover your first two years of operating costs (and it can be stretched if you are careful). The program has exploded. Huge numbers of new teams have joined including mine. My students lives were transformed as was my school community and we have connected with so many other schools and students in the FIRST community. The foreseeable future meant that I could participate in FIRST with an annual operating cost of ~$2000 and so could any school in the city. I do a lot more than just run a robotics club, but this seemed well worth it to me. Many other teams, I'm sure, would reach the same conclusion, and many more young people in Toronto could play. Who won from this arrangement? STEM and Education.

Now, it costs ~ $7500 CAD to go to 2 district events and ~$3000 to go to district champs. The TDSB cannot pay for all of that for every team. Instead, they have very generously offered $5000 CAD for districts and $1500 for district champs for every team (up to ~$6500 CAD like before).

Here is where the math is not at all complicated but many people seem to be misunderstanding me. This means that I now need to pay ~$2500 CAD to register for my 2 district events. That is an increase from $0 to $2500 CAD. That is more than double my previous operating cost. If I am in the top 60 teams in Ontario, I pay another $1500 CAD.

The previous model allowed more teams in Toronto to play with less money and less time commitment. I thought I had signed up for a program centered around spreading STEM education. Apparently it seems very obvious to the majority of posters here that the benefits of more rounds of play for better value, the opportunity to iterate between events, and cost savings for large scale competitive teams who already attend multiple events, outweighs the benefits of setting a lower bar for all to participate. The change from Regionals to Districts will provide lots of benefits. The main added cost is that it costs Toronto teams between $2500 - $4000 more just to play, and many more hours and/or people to supervise and plan. For non-Toronto teams, they too need to spend at least $1000 CAD more than in the past and either attend two events or quit after one regardless of your team's performance.

If you want to play more, iterate, or increase your odds of winning, then to me it is reasonable that you need to pay more for those added experiences. If you want to spread STEM and get kids excited about building robots in every school that you possibly can, then set the financial and time commitment bar as low as possible to play and work hard at establishing publicly funded partnerships like the TDSB's model for Toronto based teams everywhere.

I am pretty new to FIRST, but I can already clearly see that when people participate in this program they are never the same after. This is hands down the best educational experience I have ever offered to students. Public educational institutions will eventually get on board and fund what they can if we ask. What I would ask in return is that FIRST Canada maintains their model that keeps total cost down. Any increase is too much if you ask me, regardless of the added benefits. The benefits of the program as it was are far more than enough to warrant more participation.

[MechEng83]

...I will try one last time to reiterate and hopefully return to a meaningful discussion.


That actually was very helpful in understanding the discrepancy in the "standard" experience switching to districts several people have described. I think I understand your frustration and feeling of being "priced out of the program, but I don't think FIRST is the culprit, at least not directly.

There seem to be a confluence of factors that has increased your participation costs, of which several were not necessarily experienced by other district teams in their transition. I'll attempt to highlight them individually, per my understanding.

As far as FIRST is concerned, registration is $5000 USD for either 1 regional or 2 district events. From the origin point, the registration cost is the same.

Using recent exchange rates, this was approx. $6400 CAD.
FIRST Canada seems to have gotten approval for doing direct payments rather than paying and converting to USD. In doing so, they set the initial registration cost higher, at $7500 CAD, estimated. This increase is, as far as I can tell, somewhat unique to the Ontario district switch, related to the next point.

The district championship registration is typically set at $4000 USD, which using the same exchange rate of 1.28 would convert to $5120 CAD. Teams attending the Ontario District Championship are saving $2120 CAD compared to a US district team. This "benefit" does not factor in to the 78 teams who will not compete in the Ontario DC.

The last bit I'll cover is what I think is causing the most heartburn, and also isn't experienced by a significant number of teams. The TDSB has been paying your full initial registration cost, but now has reduced that amount so they can also partially fund teams who are able to advance to the district championship. Most teams have to fund raise through sponorships, external grants, student fees, bake sales, etc. While I understand not every one of these is feasible for every team, the experience of scraping together those funds -- being entrepreneurial -- is part of the FIRST experience.

I wish you and your team the best of luck in continuing. I do share your enthusiasm for the program and hope you and other teams in your situation don't fold because of this transition.

[EricH]

I do believe your numbers are correct (as is your terminology--that is likely what threw a lot of us off previously).

And I actually think that your operating cost is now $4500 CAD--add in your current costs to the registration fee. I'll assume that--for a couple of years or so--you don't attend the DCMP (there's nothing saying that invite = attendance).

At current rates, that's about 3500 USD. That could be raised fairly easily by some of the team's I've been on--one big fundraiser and a couple of smaller ones would do it--but others would struggle.

I think it's a manageable increase to deal with, at least while you build a deeper sponsor base. Phase 1: Contact current sponsors and advise them of your situation ("We are changing playing models next year, we'll be doing two events, it's going to cost us more") and ask them for a modest increase to help. Phase 2: Look for new sponsors. Phase 3: Fundraisers (done alongside Phase 2). Phase 4: Any family members want to help out?

[Christopher149]

I don't think I could have been more clear earlier with my numbers, but I will try one last time to reiterate and hopefully return to a meaningful discussion.

Now, it costs ~ $7500 CAD to go to 2 district events and ~$3000 to go to district champs. The TDSB cannot pay for all of that for every team. Instead, they have very generously offered $5000 CAD for districts and $1500 for district champs for every team (up to ~$6500 CAD like before).


That actually was very helpful in understanding the discrepancy in the "standard" experience switching to districts several people have described. I think I understand your frustration and feeling of being "priced out of the program, but I don't think FIRST is the culprit, at least not directly.


THANK YOU for these two posts. I was having trouble figuring out where the heck some of the numbers and concerns were originating from regarding expenses and what TDSB would pay for. In particular, that TDSB would not in fact be covering the entire initial registration (when it had sounded like they would only pay for half of it to cover 1 district event ie $2500USD).

As an outsider looking in, I might understand districts, but Ontario and Toronto are not wholly familiar.

[PayneTrain]

I am quite surprised at the direction this discussion has gone.

I am not sure how it is valuable to mathematically determine the overall additional cost to "one-event teams" distributed over all participating teams to imply that I am taking a hit of a few hundred dollars.

I don't think I could have been more clear earlier with my numbers, but I will try one last time to reiterate and hopefully return to a meaningful discussion.

In the regional model it cost $5000 USD to play once and potentially qualify for worlds.

The Toronto District School Board saw the deep rooted value in this remarkable program and invested heavily in getting more teams to be able to participate. They agreed to pay the full $5000 USD (~$6400 CAD) registration fee for every team for a single annual event. Rookie grants from FIRST easily cover your first two years of operating costs (and it can be stretched if you are careful). The program has exploded. Huge numbers of new teams have joined including mine. My students lives were transformed as was my school community and we have connected with so many other schools and students in the FIRST community.

This is great! This is not a unique occurrence however. Rookie grant programs are designed to infuse cash immeadiately into potential new programs for a short period of time. A really easy place to look at is Texas, who has seen both sides of this strategy. Through what I believe you could call 4 different initiatives on the part of existing FIRST grants, JCPenney, Texas Workforce Commission, and the Texas High School Project (the last two might be connected?) 41 new rookies were started for the 2011 season. From 2010 to 2011, Texas went from 104 to 144 teams. From 2011 to 2016, Texas has added 112 rookie numbers while going from 144 to... 141 teams.

The rookie grant program does great things. It gets people who have no idea what FIRST is get excited about FIRST. That is awesome! However, the global attrition rate means that not all teams are successful long term (the Texas example is very extreme). There is data that was recently posted to this website under CD-Media that you can view to learn more. Why do teams fold? There are a LOT of reasons. Studies have been done globally and locally. Indiana in the past has publicized the reason individual teams folded (anonymously). A very broad reason that teams fold? FRC is hard as hell to sustain because resources of the physical, human, and financial variety seem like they are always vaporizing in front of your eyes.


The foreseeable future meant that I could participate in FIRST with an annual operating cost of ~$2000 and so could any school in the city. I do a lot more than just run a robotics club, but this seemed well worth it to me. Many other teams, I'm sure, would reach the same conclusion, and many more young people in Toronto could play. Who won from this arrangement? STEM and Education.


I'm going to be very blunt here and say that if you thought $2000 was going to sustain an FRC team year after year, even after registration fees, you are wildly unprepared to transition the team from start-up to sustainable and in pretty much every other place in North America, you would not be fielding an FRC team next year. How do I know this? I was faced with a near-identical problem in my junior year of high school. We needed to raise a lot of cash fast to keep the program viable. I am here today because we did. We went through grant programs, brought in new corporate sponsors, and rechartered the team to get existing sponsors to buy in to our idea of where we wanted to take our program and support it at a higher level.

If someone within the community or on staff told you that an FRC team can be sustained with effectively $7000 in revenue, they have sold you a lie and they need to be stopped. Depending on physical resources, team goals, and other variables, a sustainable team probably would need about $13k USD year over year just for registration parts, tool replacements, upgrades, and maintenance, apparel, and travel.


Now, it costs ~ $7500 CAD to go to 2 district events and ~$3000 to go to district champs. The TDSB cannot pay for all of that for every team. Instead, they have very generously offered $5000 CAD for districts and $1500 for district champs for every team (up to ~$6500 CAD like before).

Here is where the math is not at all complicated but many people seem to be misunderstanding me. This means that I now need to pay ~$2500 CAD to register for my 2 district events. That is an increase from $0 to $2500 CAD. That is more than double my previous operating cost. If I am in the top 60 teams in Ontario, I pay another $1500 CAD.

Texas teams had this problem when the TWC/THSP/JCP money went poof. I don't remember them having much of a warning.


The previous model allowed more teams in Toronto to play with less money and less time commitment. I thought I had signed up for a program centered around spreading STEM education.
Marginally less money than now, but I believe that there is no more expensive STEM program in North America besides FRC. That has been true for as long as I have been a part of it. You have signed up for a program that has a self set mission to "inspire young people to be science and technology leaders, by engaging them in exciting Mentor-based programs that build science, engineering, and technology skills, that inspire innovation, and that foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication, and leadership." This has not changed or been negatively affected solely by the Toronto shifting to districts.


Apparently it seems very obvious to the majority of posters here that the benefits of more rounds of play for better value, the opportunity to iterate between events, and cost savings for large scale competitive teams who already attend multiple events, outweighs the benefits of setting a lower bar for all to participate.
In terms of making FRC a better program, yes. You have it nailed squarely on the head, with one glaring exception.

FRC Team 1137, Rocket Sauce, is based out of Mathews High School from Mathews County, VA. The town has a population that is solidly under 9000. They are not the richest team in the state. I will link you to their Blue Alliance profile from their rookie year in 2003 (http://www.thebluealliance.com/team/1137/2003). Here, you can see all of the matches they have played. You will notice 2 things about the team's participation in FIRST from its founding through 2015. The team made it to semifinals once, and was more likely to not make eliminations than make them. They never went to more than one regional. They only ever went to championships when they could afford it and get a spot on the waitlist.

Here is their profile for 2016. (http://www.thebluealliance.com/team/1137/2016)

There was no big change for this program besides the introduction of the district system into the region. Through this initiative, 1137 was able to make it to the elimination rounds at all 3 of their events. You will also notice that after making it to semifinals at their first event, they went back, made some changes to their machine, and made finals at their second event.

This is not a large-scale competitive team. This is also not a team that needed the bar to be lowered for them. They needed some fuel for their jetpack and they got it.


The change from Regionals to Districts will provide lots of benefits. The main added cost is that it costs Toronto teams between $2500 - $4000 more just to play, and many more hours and/or people to supervise and plan. For non-Toronto teams, they too need to spend at least $1000 CAD more than in the past and either attend two events or quit after one regardless of your team's performance.
The added hours and people are not unique to Ontario's shift to the district model. However, people in Ontario have already decided to let this happen. There are a lot of people in the province who are very passionate about FIRST and want to pull teams up and have a better experience in FRC.


If you want to play more, iterate, or increase your odds of winning, then to me it is reasonable that you need to pay more for those added experiences. If you want to spread STEM and get kids excited about building robots in every school that you possibly can, then set the financial and time commitment bar as low as possible to play and work hard at establishing publicly funded partnerships like the TDSB's model for Toronto based teams everywhere.

Or you can just do the VEX Robotics Competition. If I understand it correctly, the goals of your program is to get kids excited about building robots with the qualifications of doing it a low time commitment at a low cost. That is VRC. That is not FRC. That has not been FRC. As far as I know, that will not be FRC for the immediate future. It costs zero dollars to register a VEX team if I remember correctly. That is a very low bar for entry. It operates year round, not within the tight confines of our 6+10 week season. That is a flexible and potentially very low time commitment.


I am pretty new to FIRST, but I can already clearly see that when people participate in this program they are never the same after. This is hands down the best educational experience I have ever offered to students. Public educational institutions will eventually get on board and fund what they can if we ask. What I would ask in return is that FIRST Canada maintains their model that keeps total cost down. Any increase is too much if you ask me, regardless of the added benefits. The benefits of the program as it was are far more than enough to warrant more participation.

I do not participate in any other robotics program besides FRC. I never have, and I probably never will, for various reasons. I am not employed by anyone who could in any way, shape or form benefit from telling you this. I love FRC. I love my team. I want there to be as many successful FRC teams as possible. I see these successful teams as ones who become sustainable agents of change in their community by standing on the shoulders of giants in the FRC community (hall of fame teams) to chart their own path, learn from their experiences, and develop their own identity. I believe the regional model long term will not support those kinds of teams from coming into being on top of who we already have in the program.

FRC is bar none, without question, with zero necessary qualifiers or hesitation THE BEST POSSIBLE PROGRAM YOU CAN BE IN. People whine and moan over stuff that they disagree with in the sport to varying levels of merit but it is still the best. There is no equal. It is great to know that you see it this way. All I can promise you is this: if you can get the money to participate in the district system in Ontario, you will love the program even more. Of the 40 returning members to 422 for the 2016 season, zero preferred the regional model to the district model when we surveyed them. ZERO. That is not me telling you my opinion, but me informing you of theirs. They had an opportunity to grow as a team and become a better program over the course of a season. It was worth every penny.

FIRST Canada is providing the teams of Ontario an opportunity to get more out of FIRST. Whether those teams get more out of FIRST or just get out of FIRST is up to them.

[R.C.]

In terms of making FRC a better program, yes. You have it nailed squarely on the head, with one glaring exception.

FRC Team 1137, Rocket Sauce, is based out of Mathews High School from Mathews County, VA. The town has a population that is solidly under 9000. They are not the richest team in the state. I will link you to their Blue Alliance profile from their rookie year in 2003 (http://www.thebluealliance.com/team/1137/2003). Here, you can see all of the matches they have played. You will notice 2 things about the team's participation in FIRST from its founding through 2015. The team made it to semifinals once, and was more likely to not make eliminations than make them. They never went to more than one regional. They only ever went to championships when they could afford it and get a spot on the waitlist.

Here is their profile for 2016. (http://www.thebluealliance.com/team/1137/2016)

There was no big change for this program besides the introduction of the district system into the region. Through this initiative, 1137 was able to make it to the elimination rounds at all 3 of their events. You will also notice that after making it to semifinals at their first event, they went back, made some changes to their machine, and made finals at their second event.

This is not a large-scale competitive team. This is also not a team that needed the bar to be lowered for them. They needed some fuel for their jetpack and they got it.



I love this example, even spent time checking them out on TBA! Its crazy this same team attended 4 events in one year, which is equivalent to their past 4 years combined.

[thatprogrammer]

I love this example, even spent time checking them out on TBA! Its crazy this same team attended 4 events in one year, which is equivalent to their past 4 years combined.
They also played over 50 matches this year. That's more than their last 5 years COMBINED! It's really interesting how districts seem to have raised this team to the next level.

[mipo0707]

I am quite surprised at the direction this discussion has gone.

I am not sure how it is valuable to mathematically determine the overall additional cost to "one-event teams" distributed over all participating teams to imply that I am taking a hit of a few hundred dollars.

I don't think I could have been more clear earlier with my numbers, but I will try one last time to reiterate and hopefully return to a meaningful discussion.

In the regional model it cost $5000 USD to play once and potentially qualify for worlds.

The Toronto District School Board saw the deep rooted value in this remarkable program and invested heavily in getting more teams to be able to participate. They agreed to pay the full $5000 USD (~$6400 CAD) registration fee for every team for a single annual event. Rookie grants from FIRST easily cover your first two years of operating costs (and it can be stretched if you are careful). The program has exploded. Huge numbers of new teams have joined including mine. My students lives were transformed as was my school community and we have connected with so many other schools and students in the FIRST community. The foreseeable future meant that I could participate in FIRST with an annual operating cost of ~$2000 and so could any school in the city. I do a lot more than just run a robotics club, but this seemed well worth it to me. Many other teams, I'm sure, would reach the same conclusion, and many more young people in Toronto could play. Who won from this arrangement? STEM and Education.

Now, it costs ~ $7500 CAD to go to 2 district events and ~$3000 to go to district champs. The TDSB cannot pay for all of that for every team. Instead, they have very generously offered $5000 CAD for districts and $1500 for district champs for every team (up to ~$6500 CAD like before).

Here is where the math is not at all complicated but many people seem to be misunderstanding me. This means that I now need to pay ~$2500 CAD to register for my 2 district events. That is an increase from $0 to $2500 CAD. That is more than double my previous operating cost. If I am in the top 60 teams in Ontario, I pay another $1500 CAD.

The previous model allowed more teams in Toronto to play with less money and less time commitment. I thought I had signed up for a program centered around spreading STEM education. Apparently it seems very obvious to the majority of posters here that the benefits of more rounds of play for better value, the opportunity to iterate between events, and cost savings for large scale competitive teams who already attend multiple events, outweighs the benefits of setting a lower bar for all to participate. The change from Regionals to Districts will provide lots of benefits. The main added cost is that it costs Toronto teams between $2500 - $4000 more just to play, and many more hours and/or people to supervise and plan. For non-Toronto teams, they too need to spend at least $1000 CAD more than in the past and either attend two events or quit after one regardless of your team's performance.

If you want to play more, iterate, or increase your odds of winning, then to me it is reasonable that you need to pay more for those added experiences. If you want to spread STEM and get kids excited about building robots in every school that you possibly can, then set the financial and time commitment bar as low as possible to play and work hard at establishing publicly funded partnerships like the TDSB's model for Toronto based teams everywhere.

I am pretty new to FIRST, but I can already clearly see that when people participate in this program they are never the same after. This is hands down the best educational experience I have ever offered to students. Public educational institutions will eventually get on board and fund what they can if we ask. What I would ask in return is that FIRST Canada maintains their model that keeps total cost down. Any increase is too much if you ask me, regardless of the added benefits. The benefits of the program as it was are far more than enough to warrant more participation.

This is like saying this is the best thing ever but i only want to do it once and not have more chances in a year for the students to enjoy and learn from it because you and the team don't want to do any work or give effort in raising money from sponsors. I think giving the team more opportunities is better than complaining about raising money for a better experience. Also you have it better cause TDSB is helping you out, imagine all the teams who have to raise money themselves and travel long distances and they do it year after year. SO THE BIG THING TO GET OUT OF THIS IS THAT IT IS POSSIBLE WITH EFFORT AND 2 IS ALWAYS BETTER THAN 1.

[chrisfl]

My first impression was "woah! McMaster Carr has a university?"

[Monochron]

Now, it costs ~ $7500 CAD to go to 2 district events and ~$3000 to go to district champs. The TDSB cannot pay for all of that for every team. Instead, they have very generously offered $5000 CAD for districts and $1500 for district champs for every team (up to ~$6500 CAD like before).

Here is where the math is not at all complicated but many people seem to be misunderstanding me. This means that I now need to pay ~$2500 CAD to register for my 2 district events. That is an increase from $0 to $2500 CAD. That is more than double my previous operating cost. If I am in the top 60 teams in Ontario, I pay another $1500 CAD.

Though it may not be a popular opinion, or even one that you are interested in, I will say that if $2,500 is more than double your previous operating cost then FRC probably isn't the most effective program for your students even with the TDSB contribution. Vex or FTC offer a much broader experience for students at that price point

Still that's certainly no reason to "give up" if you and your students are dedicated to building an effective program. But the way you seem to be viewing the need to raise around $1,250 I might recommend going another route where your money will go further.

[Jon Stratis]

Though it may not be a popular opinion, or even one that you are interested in, I will say that if $2,500 is more than double your previous operating cost then FRC probably isn't the most effective program for your students even with the TDSB contribution. Vex or FTC offer a much broader experience for students at that price point

Still that's certainly no reason to "give up" if you and your students are dedicated to building an effective program. But the way you seem to be viewing the need to raise around $1,250 I might recommend going another route where your money will go further.

So, is this the true cost of moving to districts? Telling some teams "sorry, but maybe this program isn't for you"?

[Michael Corsetto]

So, is this the true cost of moving to districts? Telling some teams "sorry, but maybe this program isn't for you"?

Good question!

With almost 1/2 of FRC in or moving to districts, anyone care to calculate district transition team attrition rates versus the global annual average?

-Mike

[Andrew Schreiber]

So, is this the true cost of moving to districts? Telling some teams "sorry, but maybe this program isn't for you"?

No, I've been saying that for years. Independent of districts.

[Knufire]

So, is this the true cost of moving to districts? Telling some teams "sorry, but maybe this program isn't for you"?

I think FIRST decided that FRC wasn't for everyone when they decided to make the recommended ages for FTC overlap with FRC.

[Monochron]

So, is this the true cost of moving to districts? Telling some teams "sorry, but maybe this program isn't for you"?

Nope, I'll agree with Andrew. This is the true cost of FRC in general. It is a massively expensive program that gives a HUGE amount of value assuming you can invest the time, people, and money. On the low end, the same amount of investment in VRC or FTC give a much higher return than it would in FRC.

And like I said, this difference does NOT mean that his team needs to abandon FRC. It just means that they will need to scale up their investment to a level similar to other FRC teams.

[cadandcookies]

So, is this the true cost of moving to districts? Telling some teams "sorry, but maybe this program isn't for you"?

FRC is the wrong program for many people, schools, and communities. It is the wrong program when an area does not have the people, money, or time to participate in an effective manner. Fortunately there are other programs out there that are also fantastic robotics experiences such as FTC or VEX. It makes sense, when lacking the mentors, money, or time, to move to a different program in order to better serve the interests of a community.

I think that in many cases it's better to have a strong FTC or VEX program than a struggling FRC program. When a team is having problems, everything suffers-- it damages the relationships with schools and local companies, it makes it extremely hard to establish productive and valuable mentor-student relationships. And when a team fails, it makes it even harder for us to get future students in that school access to robotics programs.

So yes, it is a "cost" or moving to districts that we may lose some FRC teams. But done responsibly, moving to districts may be a good opportunity to create strong FTC or VEX programs that may one day have the resources to return to FRC.

[Jon Stratis]

I'll agree with the sentiment that not every school is well suited to FRC, and that some existing teams may do better in a less intensive program like FTC, and that it may be best served to coach those schools towards the program that fits them the best.

But should we just price the teams out by changing the program in a way that ultimately increases their costs past their sustainable level? Are these teams actually being moved into another program, or are they just dying as a result of the transition to districts? Has there been any documentation, at all, on how the different districts have handled this issue?

[swootton]

I've been following this discussion and would like to clarify the district system from our team's perspective. First a little background, we are currently entering our 6th season and couldn't be happier with the district system.

Our first year we attended 1 event and won RAS and were able to attend CMP. Another team helped us with logistics and transportation otherwise we may not have gone. This season we spent $5K for the regional and $5K for CMP. Our total operating budget for this year was nearly $50K

Our second year we attended 2 events and did not qualify to move on to CMP. We spent $5k for each event and had a total operating budget of about $35K

In our third season we moved to the district system and were excited to find out that we now get to attend 2 events for the same $5K and as many additional events that we could go to for $1K each so we signed up for three district events. We then qualified to attend the District CMP and attended which was an additional $4K. We did very well and were picked to be on the eventual winning alliance and were invited to attend CMP which cost another $5. Our total operating budget for this season was just under $50K

In our forth and fifth seasons we attended 3 events each year and District CMP for a total cost of $10K and an operating budget of about $35K

From a cost perspective our first and third years were the most expensive but we attended 2 events the first year and 5 events the third year for the same amount of money. Our second, fourth and fifth years were the least expensive but we still attended 4 events under the district model vs. 2 under the regional system.

As others have pointed out, I cannot understand how any FRC team could expect to grow/survive let alone just function on less than $10-$15K per year for a budget. We were told when the team was formed that we would need to find grants, sponsorships and do fundraising if the team was going to survive. We do not get any financial support from our school, town or state to fund our program, we are totally self supporting. We are fortunate to have two corporate/foundation sponsorships that we cherish very much that provide nearly 1/2 of our annual budget every year but we constantly discuss what we would do if we lost either one. One way we do that is to save money when ever we can. We have enough money saved at this point that we could survive for 1-2 years with some fundraising but we are always looking for and applying for grants and scholarships.

We attended an off season event in Yonkers, NY a couple weeks ago and were shocked by the differences between us being in a district system and all the other teams that are in a regional system. For us it was our 6th event, for all the others it was either their 2nd or 3rd. All we heard all day was comments about our robot not breaking and being very refined. All the teams wanted to find out more about the district system and most if not all wished that NY would go to a district model after playing with and talking to us.

In a nutshell:
Regional model
$5K per event - 6 teams advance to CMP out of 55-70 teams

District model
$5K for 2 events to qualify for point to advance to the district CMP
$1K for additional district events in your district or other districts
$4K for district CMP if you qualify - 32+/- teams advance to CMP

If you normally attend 2 events under the district model you spend $10K

For $5K you get 2 events, for $6K you get 3 events and for $10 you get 4 events if you qualify for district CMP. If you go to district CMP you have roughly and 50/50 chance of going to CMP.

In our team's opinion, we would not go back to the regional model if given the choice. We get more "bang for the buck" now and our kids have way more fun interacting with other students than they ever did.

[Anupam Goli]

But should we just price the teams out by changing the program in a way that ultimately increases their costs past their sustainable level? Are these teams actually being moved into another program, or are they just dying as a result of the transition to districts? Has there been any documentation, at all, on how the different districts have handled this issue?

I don't think there have been enough cases of teams dropping out due to the transition to districts to warrant any documentation or response from the DPC's, but I don't have any hard numbers on me. I think if it was a big enough issue, we'd hear about it. As long as events are spread out through the region to match population distribution, and the dates don't conflict with other events (I'm looking at you, Georgia...), the transition should be simple enough for most teams.

Also, I'm going to be blunt and say that any team that can't handle the transition to districts was never going to be sustainable in the long run anyway.

[scottandme]

I'll agree with the sentiment that not every school is well suited to FRC, and that some existing teams may do better in a less intensive program like FTC, and that it may be best served to coach those schools towards the program that fits them the best.

But should we just price the teams out by changing the program in a way that ultimately increases their costs past their sustainable level? Are these teams actually being moved into another program, or are they just dying as a result of the transition to districts? Has there been any documentation, at all, on how the different districts have handled this issue?

I don't see how districts are pricing teams out of FRC. Ignoring the CAD/USD exchange rate issues - district registration is the exact same cost as a single regional. You play more matches, and the events are likely closer to you. You then get a bonus 2nd event for free if you so choose. The only valid negatives are the lack of "show", and geographic isolationism.

Districts do require an additional layer of competition before the half champs level, but this only applies to teams who attend a single regional event, and manage to qualify directly at that event. As my previous post showed for Ontario - there aren't many of those.

I recompiled the numbers for regional model teams in 2016. I excluded rookie teams (259 teams) and everyone except for US and Canadian teams (154 teams).

There were 1535 veteran regional model teams that met that criteria.

899 teams attended a single regional event: (28.7% of all FRC teams)
858 did not attend the world championship
41 did attend the world championship (4.6%)

636 teams attended 2 or more regional events: (20.3% of all FRC teams)
414 did not attend the world championship
222 did attend the world championship (34.9%)

Single event teams quite simply aren't attending the world championship, and can play in as few as 8 official matches before their season ends - that doesn't seem very sustainable or inspirational to me.

[Sperkowsky]

We attended an off season event in Yonkers, NY a couple weeks ago and were shocked by the differences between us being in a district system and all the other teams that are in a regional system. For us it was our 6th event, for all the others it was either their 2nd or 3rd. All we heard all day was comments about our robot not breaking and being very refined. All the teams wanted to find out more about the district system and most if not all wished that NY would go to a district model after playing with and talking to us.


I figured id talk a bit about this metric
To start at the event there were 13 teams
2 of them are in the District system
4055 being one of them was ranked #1 and this was their 6th event
the other was 4361 who was ranked 10th and this was their 3rd event

Out of the NY (non-district teams)
rank #2 - 4122 (4th event) Attended 2 regionals and champs off waitlist
rank #3 3419 (4th event) Attended 2 regionals and champs
rank #4 2869 (2nd event) Attended 1`regional
rank #5 335 (2nd event) Attended 1 regional
rank #6 5943 (2nd event) Attended 1 regional
rank #7 371 (2nd event) Attended 1 regional
rank #8 1880 (3rd event) Attended 2 regionals
rank #9 333 (4th event) Attended 2 regionals and champs off waitlist
rank #11 4528 (2nd event) Attended 1 regional
rank #12 5123 (2nd event) Attended 1 regional
rank #13 369 (2nd event) Attended 1 regional

It also should be mentioned 4122 and 333 ended up winning the event with both teams having this as their 4th event

So, aside from a few anomaly's it is pretty clear events make teams better

and lets look at some numbers
4055 paid $10,000 for their 4 official events
4122, 3419, and 333 paid $13,000 for their 3 official events If those teams wanted an extra event before champs they would be paying $17,000 for the same amount of events that 4055 got for 10k.

I do not care how quality the event is $7,000 extra is not worth it.

[FrankJ]

I'm confused; are you responding to me within the context of the discussion or are you just pointing out something incredibly obvious for personal entertainment?

Is the Championship Event supposed to be catering to low-resource teams ie making it free or something? The idea that I was sorta playing off of Sean is that the waitlist can be used as a tool between the two postseason events for low resource teams to save up money and go to these events when they are prepared financially.

I was refuting your statement that the wait list is to benefit low-resource teams. Your point about the wait list making a championship slot predictable so you can save for it is well made. While I generally try to be helpful and pertinent, there is a component to my own entertainment to this as well. :]

But there is also a yin-yang to this. The core mission of First is to spread STEM. That includes making it affordable to low-resource teams. To have a truly world class top level competition, it is going to be resource hungry, which will make participation by low-resource team difficult.

[Monochron]

But should we just price the teams out by changing the program in a way that ultimately increases their costs past their sustainable level? Are these teams actually being moved into another program, or are they just dying as a result of the transition to districts? Has there been any documentation, at all, on how the different districts have handled this issue?

Ontario is a special case. Typically the cost to single teams does not rise with the move to Districts, regardless of how many events a team attends. The issue in Ontario is the TDSB sponsorship, in which the money given for a team to attend their 2 District events is LESS than the money previously given for that team to attend one regional. Another way to look at this is as a loss of sponsorship, not purely an increase in cost brought on by going District. I think TDSB's change to give a portion of money for District events and a portion for DCMP was smart for the majority of teams, but there is a small minority who it will harm. This is somewhat unavoidable when money allocation changes.

One last comment, and this part is just my opinion. If we accept that transitioning to Districts grants a large improvement to quality for a region (and having just gone District this past year, I certainly believe that) then I am not sure if it is the right choice to avoid Districts in the hopes of keeping struggling teams in FRC. If there were no other comparable programs, or if those other programs demanded the same investment as FRC then I wouldn't be saying this. But holding back a whole region to help a few struggle along doesn't seem right to me when there are so many better options for those struggling. No one is getting a good deal in that scenario.

[GreyingJay]

Ontario is a special case. Typically the cost to single teams does not rise with the move to Districts, regardless of how many events a team attends. The issue in Ontario is the TDSB sponsorship, in which the money given for a team to attend their 2 District events is LESS than the money previously given for that team to attend one regional. Another way to look at this is as a loss of sponsorship, not purely an increase in cost brought on by going District. I think TDSB's change to give a portion of money for District events and a portion for DCMP was smart for the majority of teams, but there is a small minority who it will harm.

Yes, having spent some time digesting the last few pages of this discussion, I think the heart of it is the issue between Toronto area teams and the TDSB "sponsorship" they have been receiving. The upcoming change would be like any of us getting word from our sponsor that $1500 would be withheld until we qualified for district championship.

I have to pause here to say that my opinion here is purely my own and not representative of my team.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the fact that the barrier for entry has been so low for so many Toronto area teams. I love that as a result there are so many teams from the Toronto area and that FIRST and FRC are so prominent there. I love meeting students who are excited about FIRST and STEM.

But I have to agree with some of the sentiments posted on the last couple of pages. I'm sorry, but if an increase of $2500 is a show-stopper for your team, then you need to stop and think about how incredily lucky you have been.

We started from scratch this year - literally no money, no tools, no supplies - and we busted our patooties doing fundraisers and hitting the streets looking for sponsors. We targeted $20-40K when we made our preliminary budgets, and we hit our target. It was challenging, but we were rewarded. We found enough sponsors and donations to have a great year. And I'm certainly not patting ourselves on the back here - because thousands of other teams do the exact same thing each and every year.

I've been involved with a few FRC teams in the Ottawa region and we would love to see FRC grow in popularity here, but it's been slow going. It's hard to start new teams, and meanwhile older teams are leaving the program because they find it too difficult to sustain. For a long time I wondered how long it would take, how many teams it would take, before there was enough momentum here for FRC to catch on as big as it has in Toronto.

Now I understand that all your teams had a huge head start. And going forward you will have slightly less of one. While I understand that's disappointing, I hope you can see why I think it's unproductive to be grumbling about it.

[swootton]

I figured id talk a bit about this metric
To start at the event there were 13 teams
2 of them are in the District system
4055 being one of them was ranked #1 and this was their 6th event
the other was 4361 who was ranked 10th and this was their 3rd event

Out of the NY (non-district teams)
rank #2 - 4122 (4th event) Attended 2 regionals and champs off waitlist
rank #3 3419 (4th event) Attended 2 regionals and champs
rank #4 2869 (2nd event) Attended 1`regional
rank #5 335 (2nd event) Attended 1 regional
rank #6 5943 (2nd event) Attended 1 regional
rank #7 371 (2nd event) Attended 1 regional
rank #8 1880 (3rd event) Attended 2 regionals
rank #9 333 (4th event) Attended 2 regionals and champs off waitlist
rank #11 4528 (2nd event) Attended 1 regional
rank #12 5123 (2nd event) Attended 1 regional
rank #13 369 (2nd event) Attended 1 regional

It also should be mentioned 4122 and 333 ended up winning the event with both teams having this as their 4th event

So, aside from a few anomaly's it is pretty clear events make teams better

and lets look at some numbers
4055 paid $10,000 for their 4 official events
4122, 3419, and 333 paid $13,000 for their 3 official events If those teams wanted an extra event before champs they would be paying $17,000 for the same amount of events that 4055 got for 10k.

I do not care how quality the event is $7,000 extra is not worth it.


Sperkowsky,
Thank you for doing all the math and research I didn't have time to do. Your final comment was basically what we heard from most teams while at the event.

[Kleiman]

I've been involved with a few FRC teams in the Ottawa region and we would love to see FRC grow in popularity here, but it's been slow going. It's hard to start new teams, and meanwhile older teams are leaving the program because they find it too difficult to sustain. For a long time I wondered how long it would take, how many teams it would take, before there was enough momentum here for FRC to catch on as big as it has in Toronto.

Now I understand that all your teams had a huge head start. And going forward you will have slightly less of one. While I understand that's disappointing, I hope you can see why I think it's unproductive to be grumbling about it.

I think this post sums up very clearly what the general sentiment has been from the FIRST community on this one. This program is expensive and hard to grow/sustain, I am lucky that I was sustained by public funds, but welcome to the reality that other teams face who do not have as much public funding. Now deal with it, don't complain about it, or just leave (P.S. I hope you don't leave #sorrynotsorry).

Firstly, I am not running a "struggling team" as has been implied on this forum repeatedly. I am running a relatively small scale, but hard working, competitive team with room to grow. In the regional model we would have required zero private money to operate.

Second, it has been implied that my difficulty in more than doubling my annual budget for future years is reflective of a lack of willingness to do the hard work of being an FRC team. Over the past two years, I have dedicated astronomical amounts of time, energy and passion as all of you have to build this program from nothing. I am a biology teacher with zero engineering background and I have converted my science class and a tiny storage area into a workshop.

My difficulties in raising more funding stem largely from an issue I have avoided bring up here due to the Pandora's box of backlash I expect it will open, but here goes... Like many of my fellow Canadians, a core value I hold as an educator is that I don't believe that private sponsorship belongs in public schools. In the regional model with the generous public financial backing of the TDSB I could indefinitely run a successful (though maybe not world champion) FRC team on public funds and through grass-roots fund raisers in a sustainable way. I am aware that the overall FIRST program doesn't exist without private sponsorship. It is a compromise I am currently willing to accept in exchange for the unprecedented experience. Developing private partnerships within my own school program is where I draw a firm line. I will continue to work myself to the bone for this team so I can run a STEM project funded with no-strings-attached and I will also continue to lobby public education to recognize the educational return on investment in FIRST. Perhaps rather than you asking me to STOP complaining about added cost, I should ask you to START complaining about lack of public funds if a dedicated team requires heavy private sponsorship to exist. "Greying Jay" implies that his wish for Ottawa's program to expand like Toronto's will come as a result of a higher cost to participate and an increased time commitment.

Third, I believe that we don't just participate in the FRC program, we are helping to build it. It can become whatever we want it to become. Looking backwards and sideways at what works currently and what has worked in the past is valuable, but it is equally valuable to imagine how we want to change this program looking into the future. I know for many people reading this, their response is that they envision a higher proportion of large-scale, competitive teams and more robust programs. For others they may be imagining that the benefits of this program spread as far and as wide as possible to afford more students the opportunity to be transformed by FIRST. Both views have merit, but on some levels these views may find themselves at odds with each other. A program that builds better teams may cost more and require more commitment, but this could also lead to the program becoming more exclusive.

I think we have more than enough fuel to easily sell this program's worth to private sponsors, so why not sell it with equal vigor to our municipal, provincial and federal governments here in Canada. My sense from the discussion on this forum is that more people are concerned about making more WINNING teams rather than making more WORKING teams. I get it... district model = better educational experience and more team growth. But I say again; at what cost? In the US, for the same price you get more FRC. More power to you. Enjoy it. In Toronto, it costs my team and other "one-regional" teams like mine at least double the previous cost (after public funding) to now play two district events. Why not imagine a model like ours of FRC where more teams can run strong, sustainable teams on less than ~$2500 CAD per year. This does not exclude the option to grow into a mega-world-class team (as many here in Canada already have done), but it just costs more to do so.

Finally, what seems to have been forgotten on this forum is that the move to Districts was a CHOICE. The decision was made by FIRST Canada that the district model was right for Ontario. More cost and commitment to participate, but less cost for more value in terms of number of plays and the educational experience for participating teams. This was a choice that makes it harder for public funding to facilitate more universal participation in the long run. I can accept it, and I will do my best to continue to play within the new framework, but I can confidently say that this choice moves in a direction contrary to my personal preference. I wish for this program to reach as many schools as possible for as little money as possible even if it means some degree of dilution to the level of competition. And no, it is definitely NOT because I don't want to do more work.

[Nate Laverdure]

A core value I hold as an educator is that I don't believe that private sponsorship belongs in public schools... Developing private partnerships within my own school program is where I draw a firm line.
Here's a cool story with an alternative viewpoint (https://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=878171&postcount=11).

[Matt Ciprietti]

My difficulties in raising more funding stem largely from an issue I have avoided bring up here due to the Pandora's box of backlash I expect it will open, but here goes... Like many of my fellow Canadians, a core value I hold as an educator is that I don't believe that private sponsorship belongs in public schools.

I don't know if you're going to get backlash, but you have to realize that your opinion is so different from that of thousands of teams - many of them very local to you - that it's going to be met with confusion more than anything else.

I'm pretty sure the reason why people were assuming you just didn't want to fundraise, work harder, etc. was because they never would have guessed that.

I mean, fine. You're taking a philosophical stand on a personal belief, I get it. I doubt I'll be able to convince you otherwise. But I'm a Canadian educator too who's been doing this for a few years, and I have to say, I've never run across that particular viewpoint as it pertains to FRC. Being an extracurricular activity, I'm willing to accept outside funds to allow a better experience for my students. If suddenly I found myself teaching "Chemistry - brought to you by Pfizer" then I might feel a bit differently, but as far as most of us are concerned, sponsorships for FRC are just part of the game. The advantages far outweigh the disadvantages (if there are any disadvantages at all).

People have been trying to give you advice, but given the constraints you've created, you've only left yourself with a single option - convince the TDSB to increase their contribution. I wish you luck in your lobbying efforts as I'm sure they'll be beneficial to all TDSB teams, but it would be a shame to lose your team over a problem that does have another solution.

[Anupam Goli]

And no, it is definitely NOT because I don't want to do more work.

No one's saying you're too lazy or don't want to put the work in. (If they are, they don't realize how much work it is already to be a lead mentor of any sort for a team).


My difficulties in raising more funding stem largely from an issue I have avoided bring up here due to the Pandora's box of backlash I expect it will open, but here goes... Like many of my fellow Canadians, a core value I hold as an educator is that I don't believe that private sponsorship belongs in public schools.

Can I inquire as to why you don't believe that private sponsorship belongs in public school? From my perspective, seeking sponsorships is a great way to reach out to the community, get local business and civic leaders involved, and increase the reach and strength of the program. Also, to what level would this belief hold? If I were to write you a check for $1000, would you accept it? What if 10 relatives of students were to send in $100 each? Like it or not, there just isn't enough public funding for these programs; that's one of the reasons why we are all trying to change the culture. However, to get to that point, we need our communities to get the message and rally behind us.


I think we have more than enough fuel to easily sell this program's worth to private sponsors, so why not sell it with equal vigor to our municipal, provincial and federal governments here in Canada. My sense from the discussion on this forum is that more people are concerned about making more WINNING teams rather than making more WORKING teams. I get it... district model = better educational experience and more team growth.

Michigan has done an excellent job of selling the program's worth to the government leaders. Their first and second year teams all got grants to start up. However, that funding wasn't forever; teams needed to be able to find the same level of funding elsewhere.[citation needed, someone from FiM please comment].

One implied assumption is that a winning team or a successful team is a working team. CD tends to have a bias towards fostering competitive FRC teams; just look at the reaction to the split championship announcement. The argument that many of us see as fundamental to our participation in FIRST is that winning is inspiring, and simple participation in the program isn't enough inspiration; we want our students to continue to compete and do what it takes to win fairly.

[Siri]

I mean, fine. You're taking a philosophical stand on a personal belief, I get it. I doubt I'll be able to convince you otherwise. But I'm a Canadian educator too who's been doing this for a few years, and I have to say, I've never run across that particular viewpoint as it pertains to FRC. Being an extracurricular activity, I'm willing to accept outside funds to allow a better experience for my students. If suddenly I found myself teaching "Chemistry - brought to you by Pfizer" then I might feel a bit differently, but as far as most of us are concerned, sponsorships for FRC are just part of the game. The advantages far outweigh the disadvantages (if there are any disadvantages at all).I won't try to convince anybody of anything, and I'm certainly not a Canadian educator, but as a former student, the relationships with real corporation meant a lot to me. We had ties into these companies that made us as students feel important in ways my other XCs didn't. Some "real" entity was invested in us, and we would sometimes get opportunities to visit and know local offices, employees, etc. It formed an amazing and valuable perspective on future and "real life" that was a big part of my FRC appreciation and my career trajectory. I don't think it would've turned me off of FRC, but even now it wouldn't have the same spark for me without the private sector relationships. Certainly this is important in the public sector both in and out of the education field as well, but not to the detriment of private community involvement.

[ASD20]

Part of FRC is the entrepreneurial side, hence FIRST giving out an Entrepreneurship Award. Even if you don't want to seek out corporate grants, there are plenty of other ways to raise money, such as bake sales, charging small amounts to drive previous robots, raffles, etc. I'm sure other people can list dozens if not hundreds of more ideas. Not only will fundraising increase your build capabilities, it will teach your students skills equal to more valuable than are taught by building the robot itself, such as public speaking, organization and planning, and money management. Community fundraisers also tend to assist with publicity and recruiting along with funds.

[PayneTrain]

I think this post sums up very clearly what the general sentiment has been from the FIRST community on this one. This program is expensive and hard to grow/sustain, I am lucky that I was sustained by public funds, but welcome to the reality that other teams face who do not have as much public funding. Now deal with it, don't complain about it, or just leave (P.S. I hope you don't leave #sorrynotsorry).

Firstly, I am not running a "struggling team" as has been implied on this forum repeatedly. I am running a relatively small scale, but hard working, competitive team with room to grow. In the regional model we would have required zero private money to operate.


No one ever said 5699 was a struggling program in this thread. In the regional model with the TDSB sponsorship never adjusting, you may have been able to operate without any private funds, but relying 2/3 of an operating budget on a force clearly outside of your control is interesting.


Second, it has been implied that my difficulty in more than doubling my annual budget for future years is reflective of a lack of willingness to do the hard work of being an FRC team. Over the past two years, I have dedicated astronomical amounts of time, energy and passion as all of you have to build this program from nothing. I am a biology teacher with zero engineering background and I have converted my science class and a tiny storage area into a workshop.

My difficulties in raising more funding stem largely from an issue I have avoided bring up here due to the Pandora's box of backlash I expect it will open, but here goes... Like many of my fellow Canadians, a core value I hold as an educator is that I don't believe that private sponsorship belongs in public schools. In the regional model with the generous public financial backing of the TDSB I could indefinitely run a successful (though maybe not world champion) FRC team on public funds and through grass-roots fund raisers in a sustainable way. I am aware that the overall FIRST program doesn't exist without private sponsorship. It is a compromise I am currently willing to accept in exchange for the unprecedented experience. Developing private partnerships within my own school program is where I draw a firm line. I will continue to work myself to the bone for this team so I can run a STEM project funded with no-strings-attached and I will also continue to lobby public education to recognize the educational return on investment in FIRST. Perhaps rather than you asking me to STOP complaining about added cost, I should ask you to START complaining about lack of public funds if a dedicated team requires heavy private sponsorship to exist. "Greying Jay" implies that his wish for Ottawa's program to expand like Toronto's will come as a result of a higher cost to participate and an increased time commitment.


I wish we had more public investment in the FIRST program at our own state and local levels. Our good friends nearby from 1086 recently worked with Virginia's General Assembly to get a bill passed and signed by our governor to grant money to programs that otherwise could not exist without the funds.

I also recognize that FIRST was founded in 1992 when COMPANIES went to SCHOOLS to start their teams. The private-public partnership between FIRST and public schools has existed since the founding of the program.

The entirety of the FIRST kit of parts is donated by private enterprises, with key control system and mechanical equipment coming for free from National Instruments, AndyMark, Innovation First International, and Cross the Road Electronics. These are all for-profit companies that donate an absurd (AN ABSURD) amount of money to FIRST. Not only does FIRST as a program not exist without private partnerships, but unless you are shipping your kit back to Manchester and buying these items yourselves, your robot does not exist without them.

I do find it curious that you must think that teams with private sponsors are suddenly enslaved to the corporation. I don't think that's the case with any teams. You are welcome to maintain your stance that no corporations dare lay a finger on your program, just understand that is not a stance shared by a majority of teams in FIRST. It's also a very insular and restrictive way to approach the FIRST program. Some organizations (ourselves included) use private sponsors to support community initiatives that bring our program to places outside of classrooms. Public money would not be able to support hall-of-fame programs because they do work that costs more money than the public can provide.


Third, I believe that we don't just participate in the FRC program, we are helping to build it. It can become whatever we want it to become. Looking backwards and sideways at what works currently and what has worked in the past is valuable, but it is equally valuable to imagine how we want to change this program looking into the future. I know for many people reading this, their response is that they envision a higher proportion of large-scale, competitive teams and more robust programs. For others they may be imagining that the benefits of this program spread as far and as wide as possible to afford more students the opportunity to be transformed by FIRST. Both views have merit, but on some levels these views may find themselves at odds with each other. A program that builds better teams may cost more and require more commitment, but this could also lead to the program becoming more exclusive.

You seem to think that competitive teams are the end goal, where in the end sustainability and success are the main goals. I have been looking into attrition rates globally vs large states/provinces vs district systems, and even if you threw out Michigan and the new systems, all districts are experiencing lower attrition than the global average. Creating as many sustainable teams as possible is not a goal that fights between many competitive teams and as many teams as possible, but takes a firm middle.


I think we have more than enough fuel to easily sell this program's worth to private sponsors, so why not sell it with equal vigor to our municipal, provincial and federal governments here in Canada. My sense from the discussion on this forum is that more people are concerned about making more WINNING teams rather than making more WORKING teams. I get it... district model = better educational experience and more team growth. But I say again; at what cost? In the US, for the same price you get more FRC. More power to you. Enjoy it. In Toronto, it costs my team and other "one-regional" teams like mine at least double the previous cost (after public funding) to now play two district events. Why not imagine a model like ours of FRC where more teams can run strong, sustainable teams on less than ~$2500 CAD per year. This does not exclude the option to grow into a mega-world-class team (as many here in Canada already have done), but it just costs more to do so.

This is a STEM competition! Using math, I have determined that it is pretty much impossible to create more winning teams unless FIRST starts giving out trophies to everyone who shows up to all of their events or we start creating even more events than the district system even allows. I really don't give a toss if we win. I'd really like to win more/at all, but I don't have to win every event we enter to justify re-entering next year. Operating on $7500 a year does not in many parts of the FRC world lead to even "working teams." Three cheers on apparently being the exception to that rule, but the reality is that teams with little money also likely have little available for them in physical and human resources to make their program sustainable.

The model that costs less is called VRC in Ontario and either VRC or FTC in the States. FRC, VRC, and FTC are all programs that can produce similar educational results. FRC, as the founders of the program will argue, is not a primarily educational program, but a program that is designed to be an agent of change in their communities. The cost to do that has been described with the outlay of the district system's plans.


Finally, what seems to have been forgotten on this forum is that the move to Districts was a CHOICE. The decision was made by FIRST Canada that the district model was right for Ontario. More cost and commitment to participate, but less cost for more value in terms of number of plays and the educational experience for participating teams. This was a choice that makes it harder for public funding to facilitate more universal participation in the long run. I can accept it, and I will do my best to continue to play within the new framework, but I can confidently say that this choice moves in a direction contrary to my personal preference. I wish for this program to reach as many schools as possible for as little money as possible even if it means some degree of dilution to the level of competition. And no, it is definitely NOT because I don't want to do more work.

For the third time, I will reiterate that no gun has been pointed to anyone's head, and it won't be in the future. Whether or not FIRST Canada was right in making their choice has yet to be seen. I wish them the best and expect them to succeed and continue to be one of the best regions in the world for competitive robotics. I also wish you the best in continuing your efforts to maintain an FRC team at your school. It takes a lot of effort to put a team out there year after year without any significant engineering experience and not enough money. It has been worth it for me still and I trust it will be worth it for you.

[bkahl]

Like many of my fellow Canadians, a core value I hold as an educator is that I don't believe that private sponsorship belongs in public schools.

Canadian Alliance Selections must make you Cringe.

[Gregor]

Canadian Alliance Selections must make you Cringe.

Yeh the NASA teams never end.

[ATannahill]

Canadian Alliance Selections must make you Cringe.
I am disappointed in this comment. I believe each team should decide for themselves how they want to be funded and I respect whatever decision is made. If 5699 leadership chooses not to have sponsors from the corporate world, than that is how 5699 shall be run.

I am not going to say it is the right decision, I am not going to say it is an easy decision and I am definitely not going to try to bring that idea to any team I associate with.

To Kleiman and the rest of 5699, you run your team how you feel appropriate. That means that you have to live with the results of your decision and in this case, that means having to find $2500 some way other than corporate support. I know that might sound daunting, but that is the reality you are faced with. I am sure that the people in this thread (and others) would be willing to help you find ways to do this if you go over to the fundraising forum. I know your price was increased, you can either continue to be upset or you can take the challenge and grow your team to be more resourceful. To do this effectively you should create a business plan and involve your students in fundraising. You might even get the KPCB award out of it. I wish you the best of luck.

[bkahl]

I am disappointed in this comment.


The comment is solely meant to draw humor (or humour) to the fact that Canadian Teams like to say some/all of their Private/Corporate sponsors before their Team name during alliance selections.

[dtengineering]

My difficulties in raising more funding stem largely from an issue I have avoided bring up here due to the Pandora's box of backlash I expect it will open, but here goes... Like many of my fellow Canadians, a core value I hold as an educator is that I don't believe that private sponsorship belongs in public schools.

As a fellow Canadian who believes strongly that schools should be free of undue corporate influence (a feeling held by people of many nations, I'm sure) I have to say that the corporate sponsors I worked with during my time running our FRC team were not only generous, but also very careful to ensure that they were enabling, as opposed to influencing paths to student success. GMC, in particular, was an examplar of how a corporate sponsor can help improve public education.

It is a small point in a larger discussion, but developing meaningful, supportive partnerships between the team and community is an important part of the FRC experience. I would encourage you to explore how your team can work with your community... the partnership and benefits usually go well beyond the purely financial.

Jason

[Christopher149]

Michigan has done an excellent job of selling the program's worth to the government leaders. Their first and second year teams all got grants to start up. However, that funding wasn't forever; teams needed to be able to find the same level of funding elsewhere.[citation needed, someone from FiM please comment].

FIM Grant information (http://firstinmichigan.org/Documents/2016FIRSTgrants.pdf)

$7500 for rookies, $5000 for 2nd year teams, $2500 for older teams. Plus $1500 coach stipends.

[GreyingJay]

The comment is solely meant to draw humor (or humour) to the fact that Canadian Teams like to say some/all of their Private/Corporate sponsors before their Team name during alliance selections.

Wait, they don't all work that way?

(And yes, some teams go on and on and on... :rolleyes: )

[Ryan Dognaux]

Like many of my fellow Canadians, a core value I hold as an educator is that I don't believe that private sponsorship belongs in public schools.

By actively preventing relationships with sponsors to form, you're doing a disservice to your team and students. There are thousands of former FIRST students who have careers now because of the great sponsor relationships teams have formed. I personally know a lot of people who had internships or co-ops directly set aside for FIRST students by team sponsors. Why wouldn't we want to help our students and get their foot in the door with a sponsoring company?

[GreyingJay]

My difficulties in raising more funding stem largely from an issue I have avoided bring up here due to the Pandora's box of backlash I expect it will open, but here goes... Like many of my fellow Canadians, a core value I hold as an educator is that I don't believe that private sponsorship belongs in public schools.


Kleiman, thank you for your thoughtful responses and for elaborating on this position. I admit that I have been a little bit perplexed by your particular scenario. The thinking was "So they need to raise another $2500... big deal, they could do that in a week or two of phone calling and emailing". Now I understand why that is a tougher problem than it sounded to me.


Developing private partnerships within my own school program is where I draw a firm line. I will continue to work myself to the bone for this team so I can run a STEM project funded with no-strings-attached and I will also continue to lobby public education to recognize the educational return on investment in FIRST. Perhaps rather than you asking me to STOP complaining about added cost, I should ask you to START complaining about lack of public funds if a dedicated team requires heavy private sponsorship to exist. "Greying Jay" implies that his wish for Ottawa's program to expand like Toronto's will come as a result of a higher cost to participate and an increased time commitment.


I admit to being more than a little envious of your previous situation. I always assumed that it was because of your program density - every school wants one because the school next door has one too - and I figured that when you approach a sponsor they must say "oh yes, I've heard of FRC" rather than "huh? robots? you mean like LEGO?". And I already figured competitions were cheaper for you guys since you didn't need to travel and book hotels.

I'm still hoping for a district event to be held closer to us, such as Ottawa or Kingston. Having a local event would greatly reduce logistics and cost for teams in my region, and would also kick start the "hey, I want one too!" sentiment in our schools.

Of course I think it would be absolutely fantastic if our school boards would kick in like TDSB has done. However, truth be told, such a decision wouldn't even help my team, as 2706 is a community driven with no school backing. Our lead mentors aren't teachers or educators, we are engineers and scientists and other professionals.

And I guess that leads to my other point, which is that although I totally understand your point of view on partnerships, I think your team is missing out on a whole other aspect of FRC because of it. One of the biggest differences between FRC and something like FLL or IEEE or any of the smaller scale LEGO competitions is, apart from sheer size, students are participating in an experience that looks and feels like the real engineering workforce. They think about things like strategy and competition, marketing, branding, and communication. They deal with real issues like project management, splitting the workload, supply chain issues (witness the Great Pneumatic Tire Shortage of 2016), version control (which is of course where my team name derives from!) and, yes, they learn to communicate, present, and sell themselves to others. It's the real thing - they talk to real companies, real suppliers, real engineers.

I understand your point about "no strings attached" but I'll just observe that the only "string" we have ever been asked for is a demo: We'll give you money to build a robot, and we want you to come in and show the robot to our employees! That is a fun experience which draws excitement, encourages new students and mentors to join, and encourages students to network and interact with other people. At sponsor demos I step back and watch the students as they talk to curious onlookers. I marvel at the students' ease at answering "so... what does it do?" for the umpteenth time. I watch a student who was super-shy in September comfortably launch into an elevator pitch about FIRST and STEM.

When I was that age, I was a complete wreck when it came to talking to anybody in public, let alone strangers! Not to mention all the other stuff like writing grant applications or sponsor request letters or planning fundraising events. This is a huge skill development opportunity.


I think we have more than enough fuel to easily sell this program's worth to private sponsors, so why not sell it with equal vigor to our municipal, provincial and federal governments here in Canada. (...) Why not imagine a model like ours of FRC where more teams can run strong, sustainable teams on less than ~$2500 CAD per year.


I do absolutely agree with you here. That would be a dream come true. I wasn't kidding about approaching the Ottawa school boards. We're going to do our darndest.


My sense from the discussion on this forum is that more people are concerned about making more WINNING teams rather than making more WORKING teams. (...) I wish for this program to reach as many schools as possible for as little money as possible even if it means some degree of dilution to the level of competition.

I do not think these are mutually exclusive. The focus should be on building long-term, sustainable, working teams, and the more of them there are, the better it is for everyone. "Winning" (and I don't necessarily refer to blue banners and trophies here) will come as a natural progression as teams develop and improve themselves.

[ASD20]

I understand your point about "no strings attached" but I'll just observe that the only "string" we have ever been asked for is a demo: We'll give you money to build a robot, and we want you to come in and show the robot to our employees! That is a fun experience which draws excitement, encourages new students and mentors to join, and encourages students to network and interact with other people. At sponsor demos I step back and watch the students as they talk to curious onlookers. I marvel at the students' ease at answering "so... what does it do?" for the umpteenth time. I watch a student who was super-shy in September comfortably launch into an elevator pitch about FIRST and STEM.

When I was that age, I was a complete wreck when it came to talking to anybody in public, let alone strangers! Not to mention all the other stuff like writing grant applications or sponsor request letters or planning fundraising events. This is a huge skill development opportunity.


I wouldn't even call that a "string", let alone a string. It is one of the most valuable aspects of FIRST and something that is useful to all team members, not just the ones interested in going into engineering.

Also, this conversation seems to be taking over the thread and it is an interesting discussion that doesn't just apply to Ontario. Maybe a mod should spin this off into a separate thread.

[cbale2000]

FIM Grant information (http://firstinmichigan.org/Documents/2016FIRSTgrants.pdf)

$7500 for rookies, $5000 for 2nd year teams, $2500 for older teams. Plus $1500 coach stipends.

To add this this, the funding is distributed on an "as available" basis, prioritizing newer teams. Meaning that if the funding runs out early (as it did this year) teams either don't get as much or don't get anything at all. This year I believe FiM/Michigan cut the grants that normally payed for teams registrations for the State Championships (and/or possibly also World Championships, though I don't remember which it was) because the program ran out of money due to the large number of teams.

Government funding is great, but it shouldn't be your only funding source if you can avoid it. Don't put all eggs in one basket. ;)