Entanglement at Bash

[Rick]

On saturday 24 teams came to East Lyme to compete in the last northeast competition this year. Keep in mind that all goal entanglement was allowed as long as it did not lift the goal.

During match 23, teams 121 and 195 faced off against 173 and 263LX. The match was sure to be a great one considering how crazy good that old 263LX was at defense. We got a lot of new dents to our bot in that match.

Anyways, about a minute into the match, 173 had one goal in scoring postition and decided to launch there tether now. Upon realizing this we, 121, got in the way of the tape measure to block it from getting to there home zone. It worked and the tape measure was retracted.

Then the tape measure was launched again and we got in the way. Except this time it broke and got caught inside our robot. Back in the player station we had no clue what was going on. It only looked as though the tape measure was moved off to one side. But then we also realized we could not move like normal.

We wanted to get to our home zone after realizing we had some unknown problems. The robot was pulling to one side and it was not until we were in the second/middle zone that we saw the paper hand of the tape measure. The match ended and we lost.

Upon inspecting the robot immedietly afterwards we noticed that a lot of tape measure was wrapped around our axle (after removing it we found 43 inches of it). Our team asked the refs to look at the damage and see that it was an obvious form of entagnlement.

While allowing the refs to inspect, team members from RAGE came literally yelling that it was our intent to destroy the tape measure and purposely get entangled. The refs were sick of hearing the arguments and went to discuss it.

At no time did I see any rulebook being used. The head ref at the time also told us we could not have a robot whose controls were on the outside start in the middle. An obvious newcomer to reffing.

When we look at the rules we see that it does not matter the intent of the team, what matters is part of a robot got entangled in another and this was due to that teams use of the robot.

Here is the rules excerpt:
ON TETHERED / EXTENDED OBJECTS BEING AN ENTANGLEMENT RISK The TIMING of the release of a mechanism IS NOT CONSIDERED when evaluating its risk of entanglement because the actions of other robots and position of the goals on the field cannot be predicted with certainty. Even if you only release the mechanism in the last few seconds of the match, if it presents an entanglementrisk, it will be evaluated that way. When designing your robot, please consider the environment on the playing field during a match and use your common wisdom to evaluate the likelihood of your mechanism getting wrapped around an axle, caught on a bolt or arm or other robot feature, or even hung up on part of a goal. Tape measure tape, while less likely to be caught on a sharp edge than an piece of string, is still a relatively flexible material when used in long lengths, and might easily be run over and snagged by another robot or a goal that is being moved.

So with all this we have the strongest evidence that you the Chief Delphi reader can use: A picture (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pictures.php?s=&action=single&picid=3236)

This is not a post to make people mad. I just want to know opinions. The match is over and done with.

[Rob Colatutto]

considering that pulling up a nice corner of the carpet didn't get you disqualified.... there is no way that this tape measure issue should have been a dq

[RBrandy]

Originally posted by Ricksta121
...use your common wisdom to evaluate the likelihood of your mechanism getting wrapped around an axle, caught on a... Tape measure tape, while less likely to be caught on a sharp edge than an piece of string, is still a relatively flexible material when used in long lengths, and might easily be run over and snagged by another robot or a goal that is being moved.


The fact that this is in the FIRST rule book they should have got a DQ.

Originally posted by Nataku
considering that pulling up a nice corner of the carpet didn't get you disqualified....


But this should have made it a Double DQ (0 points to both alliances)

Thats just my opinion

[Rick]

the carpet was pulled up in another match. the field was nice but not to sturdy. were were getting pinned and were trying to move. part of the was pulled up on accident and if we could have seen the damage happening we would have stopped trying to move.

[RBrandy]

O sorry the way I read the 2 posts I thought it was the same match... Then you should have won the match.

[Jeff Rodriguez]

Then the tape measure was launched again and we got in the way. Except this time it broke and got caught inside our robot. Back in the player station we had no clue what was going on. It only looked as though the tape measure was moved off to one side. But then we also realized we could not move like normal.

We wanted to get to our home zone after realizing we had some unknown problems. The robot was pulling to one side and it was not until we were in the second/middle zone that we saw the paper hand of the tape measure. The match ended and we lost.

Upon inspecting the robot immedietly afterwards we noticed that a lot of tape measure was wrapped around our axle (after removing it we found 43 inches of it). Our team asked the refs to look at the damage and see that it was an obvious form of entagnlement.

Here is the rules excerpt:
ON TETHERED / EXTENDED OBJECTS BEING AN ENTANGLEMENT RISK The TIMING of the release of a mechanism IS NOT CONSIDERED when evaluating its risk of entanglement because the actions of other robots and position of the goals on the field cannot be predicted with certainty. Even if you only release the mechanism in the last few seconds of the match, if it presents an entanglementrisk, it will be evaluated that way. When designing your robot, please consider the environment on the playing field during a match and use your common wisdom to evaluate the likelihood of your mechanism getting wrapped around an axle, caught on a bolt or arm or other robot feature, or even hung up on part of a goal. Tape measure tape, while less likely to be caught on a sharp edge than an piece of string, is still a relatively flexible material when used in long lengths, and might easily be run over and snagged by another robot or a goal that is being moved.

So with all this we have the strongest evidence that you the Chief Delphi reader can use: A picture (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pictures.php?s=&action=single&picid=3236)

This is not a post to make people mad. I just want to know opinions. The match is over and done with. [/B]

The hand is not paper, its poly-carb.

If it was entaglement, than the refs at natioanls (experienced ones) would have called it that and DQ'ed us. Obviously, they didn't, therefore it is not entaglement.

Many robots have run over the taper measure with no prblem at all. You must have been doing something to kick it up into your axels. Driving over it does not hinder any robot.

Whos cares? It was at Bash which means nothing in the long run. plaese stop trying to start arguments.

[Kyle Fenton]

Originally posted by Nataku
considering that pulling up a nice corner of the carpet didn't get you disqualified.... there is no way that this tape measure issue should have been a dq

That was a separate match, and basically the carpet bunched up because the field was really loose, and nothing was anchored down. The coaches were using their feet to hold the side barriers in place.

[RBrandy]

Looking at the pic Im wondering how that ISNT entanglement?

Im not trying to start an argument but im confused on this.

[Tom Schindler]

Just another pic of Rage's hand in 121's bot

[Joel J]

This question/accusation/whatever walks a fine line. Ever since someone exploited the loophole in the rules to make tethers possible, alot of controversy has surrounded it. FIRST tried their best to formulate an addendum to the rules that would best prevent a team from purposely using their tether to hinder their opponents from scoring. FIRST was somewhat successful; however, due to the variations in the treatment of tethers at the regionals, it was very hard for them to find a common ground.

In the match you speak of, I was driving. Here is how it went down from my end of the field.

---
When I saw you guys approach our robot, I knew you were either going to attempt to take our goal, or block the tether. As you approached, your goal grabber was pointed away from our goal and your robot was aligning itself perpendicular to ours, leading me to believe that you were about to prevent us from deploying our tether. With this in mind, I knew I had to release the tether then (something I normally don't do).

I released the tether and it made it to the edge of the no-score zone before your robot reached us and got in front of the tether. As quickly as my reflexes allowed, I retracted the tether because I didn't want it to be broken. It was at this point that things got blurry.

I turned the robot slightly and released the tether again. However, as soon as I released it your robot came screaming back and stopped right on top of the tether. Once again, the tether hadn't made it very far. My first instinct was to once again retract the tether, but I realized that it was under your wheel, so I didn't. Your robot kept going back and forth over the tether, as though it were going somewhere, spun around and left. As you left, I noticed that our tether didn't have a hand. I didn't think much about it, except it took a real stretch to get the tether to our endzone.

At the end of the match I see the referees and some students standing around 121's robot. Jason told me that they were trying to get us DQ'ed, so I obviously ran (walked briskly, whatever) over there. When I reached the "hot zone," however, I decided to not get caught up in the debate and opted to say my peace to Brian, a 173 alumni.

When we were allowed to clear the field, I remember saying something to a non-ricksta stage crew member wearing glasses (best description, since I don't know the name). He basically said to me what you are saying now.
---

In trying to prevent our tether from reaching the endzone, your robot kept going back and forth. This motion was similar to ones done at regionals in an attempt to become entangled in the other party's tether (to cause a DQ). You did just that.

Rather than go on further, I am going to bed. If someone feels that this topic is worth stress, they can post a video of the incident and more light will be shed on the issue than this current heresay.

People can twist facts to make them adhere to one rule, or break another. We all know what happened up there, but since one team lost, it is only natural that they would attempt to use some means to turn it into a win. I am almost positive that if you had won that match, you wouldn't have posted today.. unless you were greedy for QP, which I doubt.

[ColleenShaver]

Seeing the match, how it all went down, and the results afterwards.. there's no way it wasn't entanglement. I was even conversing with one of the ref's after it happened. It's the way the head ref made the call. But I will say, it undoubtably deserved a rematch if they were unwilling to DQ an alliance. After all, the tether rule does not determine "intent". Our tether has been run over, had figure-8's pulled over and was even sucked up and dragged around. No DQ deserved though, cause that's legal (and we never entangled).

As for the carpet pulling up, I've gotta agree with 121 it was down very well. The carpet in the middle of the field got bunched up quite well on a couple of occasions when people hit us and our anchors were down. If you looked at the carpet at the beginning of the competition, you could have seen that in several places the carpet didn't even go under the players station (which is the weighest part of the field and helps greatly to hold the carpet down). There would be no valid reason to call 121 on that. Bash provided a quality carpet that just needed to be a few inches longer, but we make due with what we've got.

All that said... can we drop it? I'm not one usually to jump in on these posts, and my opinion surely isn't definitive.. but there isn't even a precedent to be set for future off-season competitions, because they are done (as far as I know). I think FIRST, and all of us, know that there were some mishandlings of the tether rule, which they will do their best to avoid next year.

You won 121. You built an excellent robot, you played well, and you deserved it. We've all had our share of unfair calls that went against (and in) our favor.. but the season's over, let's let it go! We've got a new game to get psyched for.

(And a disclaimer to everyone on 121 that isn't Ricksta... I know he's not always representative of your opinion, but he wears your shirt just as proud as you, and sometimes it's even hard for me to differentiate the opinion... so don't be offended that I refer to your team.. you know we're fans of your team)

[Mike Schroeder]

While allowing the refs to inspect, team members from RAGE came literally yelling that it was our intent to destroy the tape measure and purposely get entangled. The refs were sick of hearing the arguments and went to discuss it.


1st thing loved your robot rick

2nd thing at rutgers in one of our matches we ran into a problem like yours only we were on the opposite side.

don't remember #'s but toward the end of the match we lauched the "mini-me" and in retrospect we did it to early but one of our opponents drove by and decided to get our tether our of scoring position. it didnt work so they decide to do a happy dance on it

now after the match, just to make matters clear I nicely walked up to a judge to point out that that can be construded (sp?) as Malicious(sp?) intent, but in my defense when i looked at the drive team they were point in and laughing as they "Happy Danced" all over our "Mini-Me"

I some cases yes you shoot it you better be able to prtect it that is why in cases where they are flimsy peices of paper or whatever it is they should be disqualified for entanglement

We still won the match though

that is just my handful of change

[Sean_330]

I was not there at the competetion in question. BUT i have refereed 4 off season events (2 SCRRF, 1 WRRF, and 1 IRI) and had to make some pretty tough calls (I was head ref at both SCRRF). I am not gonna say how i would have called it because I was not there and do not know all the facts and therefore can not reach an informed decision. HOWEVER, there are several important things to remember here:


1 The Referees are human beings too: That is a fact of life. This is coming from a referee. I admit that I am human and I make mistakes. We ALL can and do make mistakes. The disappointing thing to all referees is when people then go behind our back and whine about our calls on places like CD where the complaint is out for the public to see regardless of whether our call was right. Often times the facts are not presented in an unbiased manner. It undermines the authority and respect that the referees should have. Referees are volunteer meaning they are unpaid. They try their hardest and try to be fair in all their dealings.

2 The referees have a tough job: It is tough to make a call that no matter how you decide, one side is probably going to be angry at you. Calling a couple of entanglement DQs at SCRRF was harder than almost anything I have done in my life. I am sure the referees tried to make a fair, informed, unbiased call. However, no matter how fair that call is, one of the two teams is not going to be happy with the call and there will probably be backlash. Even though they know all this, the referees still willingly volunteer their time to help make a difference.

3 While a single photograph may be enough evidence to prove enganglement in the court of public opinion, there is often more to a story than meets eye. While the picture appears to show entanglement, the referees had to consider the purpose of the other team. No matter what it looks like, there is always the possibility that the team tried to become entangled. that question along with many others is always in the referees minds when they make a call.

4 Without referees, FIRST would not be what it is. If there were no referees, FIRST would become like *gasp* Battle Bots. While the referees may not call much, they still protect the teams from an undesirable, un professional, violent aspect of the game.


So in the end, the issue seems to be not whether entanglement occurred. Instead the issue becomes whether there was enough respect shown to the referees and whether debating a call after the fact in a public forum is indeed what Woody and Dean mean by gracious professionalism?

[Rob Colatutto]

121, you say you were pinned up against the wall, and thats why the carpet was comming up, but in order for that to have happened the way it looks, you must have been going backwards...

[Rick]

The reason I posted was because I've seen a bunch or robot-goal entanglement during the season. I've never seen a robot-robot entanglement. For the second time, I know its over and there is no hard feelings. I have tried to start not an argument, but a post to discuss. I had no idea what it looked like on the other station, but from Joel j's post now I do.

[JVN]

I was there for the match when the carpet got pulled up. I got to see what happened both from our booth and I got a close-up view of the carpet.

I think everyone can agree that there was some damage done to the carpet, this shouldnt even be a point for debate. However, I agree (after much thought) that this was not reason for a DQ. However I do think that the carpet being insecurely held down caused it to bunch under Rhodewarrior. This helped them stay in the corner.

Ricksta-
How can you say you were pinned? It's pretty obvious to everyone that we were pulling you out of the homezone. From a strategy perspective it would have been stupid for us to hold you there. Just think about it, also it is visible in that picture that you would have had to be driving into the corner to pull up the carpet like that.

The most annoying thing about that match was Ken (the head ref) counting us for a DQ. All he had to look down to see our wheel spinning AWAY from Rhodewarrior. Our driver even detached and pulled away to show him our intentions. He just kept on counting, oblivious to what was actually going on.

We had a match where our battery fell out of the robot. Sigh... Everyone's worst nightmare. It wasn't fastened in correctly by a rookie on our pitcrew. What made this humiliating moment worse was when we looked up and found our distinguished head-ref pointing and laughing at our robot. How graciously profesional. I thought this was off-season? This was my first offseason comp, but I'd heard the rules would be relaxed, and everyone would be there just to have fun. I found this not to be the case. The referees were stricter than at any FIRST Regional I'd been to in my 3 years of competition. Overall it was a fun weekend, but we had a couple of moments where I, and several others I talked to, were appalled by the actions and rulings of the referees.

I hold no hard feelings against 121. We enjoyed a good match working with them in the qualifiers. We also had fun in some very competitive matches against them later on in the day. I just can't wait for next year's competition when we can play with/against you guys again!

I hope you feel the same way. Ricksta, you came over angry at us for shutting you out in that qualifier match. The truth was we couldn't have beaten you any other way. Our options were to lose, or to play a defensive match and possibly win. You guys have a great robot, I enjoyed finally seeing it in person and marveling at it's simplicity. I still wonder why you didn't just drive into the endzone and at least score 10 points for your alliance. And it was the hardest fought 0 score I ever won, the most fulfilling too :D

I'm sorry for ranting, these are just some of the things that have been bouncing around in my head. Please feel free to post how off-base I am.

As for now, I'm just going to add this weekend to my previous experiences and prepare for the next step... UTC 2003!

[Rick]

I thought we got pinned at first since we were trying to leave our homezone to put the goal in our zone. The reason i got mad about not letting us score is because it happened to us 3 times on saturday. teams realize they couldn't win against us and overpower all the goals. the match where we got nothing against you we tried to get home but were entrapped inside 3 goals and other robots. there should never be hard feelings, those matches were fun.

the match when our wheel fell off, we had no clue what was going on. No wonder we couldn't move that goal. A wheel came off in nationals this year too. It spun off just as we came back to our home zone. after that match on saturday our team from the stands told us how they watched the wheel basically gradually turn itself off the axle. that was the same wheel that had the tape measure attached to it. coincidence that the wheel later feel off???...probably.

[Ashley Weed]

You wouldn't have any entanglement worries if you had a 10lb. Moose! :D

[Jnadke]

If we compare this with the calls at regionals, anything would go. It just depends on the regional.

If we compare this with the calls at nationals, 173 would have been disqualified. Let me give an example.

In our semi-final match on Einstein field (Einstein division) at nationals, our parter, 303 was trying to push Heatwave (312?), into our scoring zone (they attacked them head-on at the beginning). They got flipped up while pushing them and rode up on top of Heatwave. They rode up on top of their tether mechanism, which came off the robot and got stuck under 303. It remained there for the rest of the match (Heatwave was also disabled in the process). Point-wise, we would have won the match.


In the end of the match, blame was placed on Heatwave for not having a secure tether mechanism. They were disqualified and our alliance won the semi-finals.

[Adam Y.]

the match when our wheel fell off, we had no clue what was going on. No wonder we couldn't move that goal. A wheel came off in nationals this year too. It spun off just as we came back to our home zone. after that match on saturday our team from the stands told us how they watched the wheel basically gradually turn itself off the axle. that was the same wheel that had the tape measure attached to it. coincidence that the wheel later feel off???...probably.
What did you use to attach the wheel to the shaft??? I hope you didn't only use set screws because thats proabably why the wheel came off.

[Kyle Fenton]

Originally posted by wysiswyg

What did you use to attach the wheel to the shaft??? I hope you didn't only use set screws because thats proabably why the wheel came off.

Not to get too off-track, but we had this problem with our Skyway wheels all year.

Those 8’ skyway wheels are pretty good pneumatic wheels that severed us well, however they had some serious defects.

When you want to re-treed them, you had to take off the wheel, unscrew the screws, and separate the axle and the hub. However when you do this, you significantly weaken the bond between the axle and the hub. We quickly found out that the axle slips out of the hub, and our wheel falls off. The only solution we found, that worked pretty good, was to put set-screws right through the axle and the hub. The wheels we had on @ Bash at the Beach were used, and extremely prone to this problem.

I recommend anyone if you plan to use the 8 inch skyway wheel (which many teams did), to fill the inside with some kind of epoxy glue so you have a sold wheel and axle.

[WernerNYK]

Well without actually seeing how your wheels were attached, but by how you are describing it.. I would say that a ROLL PIN would have worked better, and you dont have to worry about them coming out or unscrewing... just my $0.02

As for the refs, they were just doing their job. Like someone said in a prior post (he has apparently been a referee in the past), you can't take out your aggressions on the ref. As for the "you must have your controls above your robot," I believe that was more making sure that the teams knew they what they were doing, and also that they were correctly plugged into their corresponding port, which in a few cases, they were indeed plugged into the wrong competition ports.

Again, as for the rulings, the refs try to be a little lax because it is an off-season, but at the same time, try to enforce the rules so that they arent broken, such as at the MD state fair. This is a reason why BattleCry is such a success; and realize that the head ref at Bash, Ken Stafford is also the one in charge of running and organizing BattleCry, so he is definitely not a "newcomer."

[Rick]

ken stafford was fine as head ref AFTER lunch. this was the last match before lunch. it wasn't about controls under number, it was robot under number that the first guy tried to call us on.

[BFireball8]

First of all, you are a poor sport Ricksta, and you dont symbolize the true meaning and intent of FIRST. You always try to pick fights and then hide behind your scapegoat excuse which is denying your intent. It was very clear that your teams intent for the "entanglement match" was to cause damage, by REPEATABLY running over the tape measure to try to cause it to break. A tape measure isnt some flimsy device that falls and breaks off, it requires some effort and force. So its team's 121 fault for having it break off and getting entangled.

The head ref Ken Stafford is also a better referee and part of FIRST then you will ever be, so you have no right saying he sucked and made bad calls. If you are looking for the man who best represents the FIRST spirit, it is him. Maybe you should talk to him so some of it will "rub off" on you. All of his calls were made in justly and in the spirit of FIRST, so you'll have to find some one else to blame. (Im sure that wont be too hard)

[Kyle Fenton]

Originally posted by BFireball8
First of all, you are a poor sport Ricksta, and you dont symbolize the true meaning and intent of FIRST. You always try to pick fights and then hide behind your scapegoat excuse which is denying your intent. It was very clear that your teams intent for the "entanglement match" was to cause damage, by REPEATABLY running over the tape measure to try to cause it to break. A tape measure isnt some flimsy device that falls and breaks off, it requires some effort and force. So its team's 121 fault for having it break off and getting entangled.

The head ref Ken Stafford is also a better referee and part of FIRST then you will ever be, so you have no right saying he sucked and made bad calls. If you are looking for the man who best represents the FIRST spirit, it is him. Maybe you should talk to him so some of it will "rub off" on you. All of his calls were made in justly and in the spirit of FIRST, so you'll have to find some one else to blame. (Im sure that wont be too hard)

BFireball8 don't you think that your post is a little too harsh. Rick is a unique person, which sometimes writes something he doesn't mean. His post might be a little too "candid," but I don't consider it to be inappropriate.

Your statement that we intended to cause damage is completely false. We never meant to get entangled. The only thing we were trying to do was to block Rage’s tether. Since I was behind the glass that match, to the best of my recollection what happened:

1. We saw Rage and position, and stood ready to block there tape measure

2. The first time they launched their tether we blocked it, and they retracted it

3. The second time they launched it we went to block it, but this time our robot didn't move forward, then our driver jerked back and forth figuring that it was the carpet or something

4. Then we released the goal figuring it was that. (Than 999 pushed it into Rage's end zone)

5. In trying to get home, we found that the bot was very jerky, and found it a real struggle to get it home.

6. First I thought a motor went dead, or a wheel fell off, but then I saw the hand sticking out of wheel.

I have this on video and digitized if anybody doesn't believe me.

Also I have to say that Rick was not to disparage Ken in any way. I think you completely misunderstood his intentions. He was merely disagreeing with a call not only he made but other refs. Ken and others discussed the match for several minutes during the lunch break, and ultimately had to reach a settlement to move on. Tape measures were organdy banned because of reasons like this. That is why DQ's are so shady, and really depend if the refs personal opinion. Ultimately, Ken had to make a non-bias decision, which he knew it could or could not be right.

[BFireball8]

I might agree that my post might be harsh, but my philosophy is that if you can dish it, you should be able to take it. And on that note I have read many harsher things by ricksta.
Also, if your intent was to "block" RAGE's tether, than why were you repeatably running over it after the tether had successfull reached the endzone???

[Rick]

in case you didn't know ken was the head ref after lunch. before lunch he was a regular ref. he did a great job. it was the guy who was head ref before lunch that i dont agree with. ok. i know ken is a great guy and this post hasn't been harsh on my end.

as for running over the tape measure, how else to you remove it from an endzone?

[Jeff Rodriguez]

Originally posted by Ricksta121
as for running over the tape measure, how else to you remove it from an endzone?

Thats the point of a the tape measure. You can run over it and it won't move. The only way to is to block its initial path.

I suppose you could run over it repeatidly, but then it could get stuck in your wheel and hinder you:confused:

[Jnadke]

Originally posted by Ogre


Thats the point of a the tape measure. You can run over it and it won't move. The only way to is to block its initial path.


You just said it yourself. The fact that it did move and got caught in their wheel makes the tape measure illegal by FIRST rules.


But anways. Fighting over this will get us nowhere. It's time to put the past behind us and move forward. Look towards January and I'm sure FIRST will have a rule book for us that will rival most legal documents :D


Hey - then FIRST won't just be for engineers, but also for laywers :rolleyes:

[Jason Haaga]

Even though we tried to avoid getting the tape measure caught on anything at all costs, it did. It was entaglement. No arguement there. Done.
So yeah, we should've been DQed.
It was intent to damage the tether by doing a happy dance on top of it. There was four feet around it even with us retracting as they turned. You have to try to get that much wrapped around. There was intentional damage caused to our robot. No arguement there. Done.
So yeah, 121 should've been DQed.

Personally I think it should've been a double DQ match, but then again that's just me...

[KevK]

see subject...:confused:

[Brandon Martus]

This has been discussed to death...