Time limits, your input, etc.

[Brandon Martus]

It seems there are quite a few very contraversial topics being discussed in Chit-Chat lately, and it's been causing more problems than not. Instead of just prohibiting non-FIRST discussion, we may start to put a time limit on contraversial non-FIRST discussions. The heated arguments seem to start after everybody has gotten their point across; basically when the nit-picking starts to happen. So, instead of ending on a sour note, the discussions will end at a set time, hopefully before it gets ugly.

Please vote on this poll. We want to get an idea of where to limit these discussions. Please give your input, ideas, and such.

Thanks.

[SlamminSammy]

Is there any way to give each member a certain amount of posts per thread?

[evulish]

I think it most certainly is case-by-case. Maybe set a limit...then have the option of voting on whether to continue the thread...then have the decision go to you if the majority of posters in the thread say yes. (Another idea could be to get more Mods to take some of the load off you and make sure people are being nice...)

I certainly don't think 2-3 days is enough for a thread. From my forum experience, the threads start with broad and general statements then get more nit-picky then ends up 2 or 3 people just harassing each other... That process normally takes a week or two. I'd say end it in the middle of the nit-picky part.

Just warn people a day or two before the thread ends...so that people can basically summarize if needed. I guess it's hard to actually limit this kind of stuff... AFAIK, there aren't really any bad grudges because of things said over some of these debates. I know some other select forums (linuxnewbie.org), threads about religion, politics, and the like result in some people being kicked off their ISP. I have never seen anything close to that here on CD (and hope I never will).

[AdamT]

Case-by-case...

Some discussions about good robotics stuff like motors and wires and that crazy stuff can stay a good, helpful discussions for weeks...

Others luckily end themselves...

As for controversial topics, if there were a way to screen them, I'd say good riddance and find another forum. Since this thread is about time limits, I'd say a single day is more than enough to produce plenty of heated emotions. If they want more then a day, that's what IM, e-mail, and other such private devices are good for.

Yes, this seems to be contradictory to my previous posts in the last week... If you want to know how such a quick change should come about, PM me...

[meaubry]

Brandon,
There will always be the person that must get the "last word in" - a time limit is appropriate in all cases. I'm not sure that it will actually stop some of the stuff going on, but it may slow it down - how difficult would it be to limit the number of responses any one person could make? Say, 1 original post and 2 follow ups. Time limits and number of responses are how most debates are managed. It's too bad we have to correlate a Chit Chat string of postings to a debate. As your Dad and I have talked about many times, our CD website really wants to encourage positive interaction between and amongst FIRST teams and have in the past requested everyone that posts to use restraint in posting. If the problem is focused more on the Chit Chat forum than any of the others, we may want to do something just on that board - until we develop a longer term solution.
Mike Aubry

[Andy Baker]

I agree that case by case closing is probably the best way to go... and I think that Adam has a good point about closing some of these threads in a hurry. Also, you don't always have to explain your reason for closing the thread... it's your (ChiefDelphi's) site, for Pete's sake! Censorship, smensorship... when in doubt, close the thread.

Mike is right (as usual), everyone is always gonna want to get a last word in. If they want to do that, then they can figure out another way to do it (PM, email, or stand on a box in a local park).

Andy B.

[Rick]

the controversial posts get publicized in the portal page. Why not just take all rumor mill and chit chat posts off the portal page (if it can be done)

[Brandon Martus]

Originally posted by Ricksta121
the controversial posts get publicized in the portal page. Why not just take all rumor mill and chit chat posts off the portal page (if it can be done)

Anything can be done. And that actually is a good idea. We're all about robotics, the chit-chat forum is just an added little area when the discussion turns to non-FIRST. Maybe I'll remove chit-chat from the portal 'recent threads' list.

[Madison]

I tend to disagree with censorship of all sorts. :-/

Censorship sends the wrong message. While I understand you may be trying to prevent heated discussion, censoring posts, threads, and limiting discussion will go much further toward perpetuating a climate of intolerance, misunderstanding, and disagreement than letting them run their course ever could. Not only does it limits a students' opportunities to learn about specific topics, but it steals from them a value lesson about living and working in the "real world" - people do not always agree, almost never 'agree-to-disagree', and being able to stand forth and defend your beliefs is one of the most valuable skills someone can possess.

If they don't learn that now, when will they learn it?

Time limits; the longer the better; are the best option, I guess. Still, I don't like it at all.

[Neal Probert]

I think the chit-chat and non-FIRST topic areas should be shut down. This is not censorship, but the real-world reality in the office workplace where professionalism is demanded of you. An outpouring of personal, private, political and religious sentiments is not acceptable professional behavior and is generally not welcome.

The technical reason for closing down the chit chat and non-FIRST topics are that it consumes resources. The legal reasons for closing that area down is that Chief Delphi is liable for damaging content (libel, slander, ...).

The main political reason for closing it down are that it has nothing to do with FIRST. Chief Delphi is a forum about FIRST and FIRST related topics. Period.

From a user perspective, when the signal to noise (chit-chat) ratio gets so bad, it's no longer worth listening in on. That is what happened to Usenet.

There are tons of other bulletin boards, chat rooms and forums out there for non-FIRST topics.

[Bill Gold]

This is probably going to be a bit disjointed, I should have slept more last night.

I think that setting a firm time limit for all off-topic threads is a bad idea. If it's going to happen, I'd like to request that threads which involve a debate or an exchange of philosophy (Iraq, Dem/Rep, etc.) remain open as long as threads about nonesense. This is, of course, assuming people don't say that their views are universal, or that someone who doesn't agree with them is a "poopy-head."

Yes, there are some threads which deserve to be closed immediately. I, also, don't think it's fair to those of us who would like to state our opinions, and then why we feel that way to close threads like the Dem/Rep one. Yes, a couple people were getting upset, but I saw promise. I thought with my next post I might have been able to cool things down and get back to a real discussion (I realize some of you may find this hard to believe, but it's true). But I was in Riverside over the weekend without an internet connection. Deep down I feel cheated that I didn't get a chance to aid the discussion, but there's nothing I can do about that now. I'd also like to say that having the time limit be a single day shelf life is a bad idea. Not everyone reads these forums every 15 minutes like some of us ;), and maybe those people are the most enlightened and persuasive with regards to certain subjects. I also agree with Andy in that this is your site Brandon, and you should do whatever you want and without explaining yourself. I'd also like to vote for taking Chit-Chat topics off the portal page.

Really quickly I'd like to add/reply to Neal Probert's post. There hasn't been any damaging content, and I think people know what they should/shouldn't write when it comes to this. Also, I doubt ChiefDelphi is liable for me saying that Adolf Hitler wears a tutu, or something of that sort. Also, it's true that the Chit-Chat forum usually has nothing to do with FIRST, but why is that such a bad thing? I think it's great that CD has nurtured an online institution which draws in FIRST people, but then also gives them a side forum to talk about either nonesense or hold discussions about real world topics. The Chit-Chat forum should be viewed as something comparable to a "break room" at a job. I think it's up to CD to decide what this website is about, I don't think it's appropriate for us who aren't on the team to tell them that their website should only be about FIRST, and nothing else. Finally, if the signal-noise ratio gets bad, then why continue to read the material? There's no one forcing us to read every single new thread. I ignore plenty of them, and I suggest that people who get fed up with the nonesense do the same.

Yeah... I think that's enough of me for now.

[Brandon Martus]

Originally posted by Bill Gold
Finally, if the signal-noise ratio gets bad, then why continue to read the material? There's no one forcing us to read every single new thread. I ignore plenty of them, and I suggest that people who get fed up with the nonesense do the same.

An easy way to ignore these is to subscribe to every forum, and then remove the static (ie: chit-chat, etc). I have a quick SQL query to do this real quick, instead of clicking 'subscribe' on every forum.

Once you're subscribed to everything but the noise-makers, you can then hit 'New Posts' next to 'Subscribed' instead of next to 'All Forums'. It will work the same exact way, minus those not subscribed to.

Send me a private message if you want me to do a mass-subscription for you.

[ChrisH]

Originally posted by M. Krass
I tend to disagree with censorship of all sorts. :-/

While I agree with the above statement, we may not agree on a definition of censorship. I regard censorship as a Government prohibition of certain kinds of speech in any place at any time. For example, certain other countries have laws making it illegal to express criticism of the government at any time, in any way shape or form.

The Supreme Court in a famous ruling whose name I can't recall, commented that it was not inappropriate for a local government to make it a crime to shout "fire!" in a crowded theatre when no fire exists. It has also repeatedly ruled that local government has the right to regulate when and where large assemblies of any kind can occur. It just cannot prohibit them altogether, nor can it regulate what is said at such assemblies.

So if you want to have a political rally for the Purple party, whose express policy is the violent overthrow of all forms of government other than theirs, the city government can tell you to have it in the town square or out at the stock yards or wherever else is usual in the town for such things.

They can also make sure you do not hold your rally at 2am and disturb the neighbors who have their own freedom not to listen. But once they have told you an acceptable place and time, they cannot tell you what you can and cannot say at your meeting. To do so WOULD be censorship. To prohibit your parade through a residential neighborhood at 2am would not, as long as they made a more acceptable (to the community) place and time available. They may also, at their discretion, prevent such speech as may be morally offensive or inappropriate for young ears from taking place at all in a public area. They may do this to protect those who would other wise be forced to hear such things from having to. But they may not prohibit it in private.

Nor would it be censorship for me to throw you out of my house for using bad language. Such things are not tolerated there at any time and it is private, not public, property. I have the right, even the responsibility, to regulate what is said there and how it is said. Not that I expect such things of you, Mr Krass, but just to make a point.

Regardless of what you may think, there is a place for proper restraint by those in authority. This website is private property, not public. Those who own it do have the right and responsibility to regulate what is said here, though they have been very lenient and gracious and have rarely needed to step in and do so. I feel this is a credit to the larger community that they have invited to visit. But if, for some reason, the powers that be at Chief Delphi decided to close this website to all of those NOT on their team, it would not be censorship. You might miss it, but you would not even have grounds to complain. You would also be free to build your own similar website to fill the hole that loss of this one would leave in the FIRST community.

Freedom means responsibility. It seems that some are being irresponsible, so some of their freedom may need to be curtailed for the benefit of the larger community. This may be regretable, but it is NOT censorship.

[Rich Wong]

We must consult with the "higher" spirit of FIRST.....

...let's all close our eye and hold hands

...clear our minds and focus....

focus...

Ken...

Ken...

Ken Leung where are you... we need your wisdom and long input.

:D

(I'm sorry... I can't help it, I have nothing to do until
the Kickoff)

[David Kelly]

i don't think that this should really even be an issue. Brandon may do as he pleases. They pay the money for it, so they can use it how they want to. this is Chief Delphi's forum. you go by their rules or leave. it's as simple as that.



i am the moderator for our teams forum http://forums.cyberblue234.com im not afraid to close/ delete threads that i feel are inappropiate. certain stuff doesn't need to be posted on these forums. if they dont like it, tough luck. you live by my rules. i've even had to ban 2 members of our own team for a period of time for inappropiate content. yeah, they were mad. they should have thought about what they posted before they did it.

[Johca_Gaorl]

Originally posted by Brandon Martus
Anything can be done. And that actually is a good idea. We're all about robotics, the chit-chat forum is just an added little area when the discussion turns to non-FIRST. Maybe I'll remove chit-chat from the portal 'recent threads' list.

I think that would be the best idea, and if things get to insults or something like that, then shut them down. I know I have participated in at least one of the more controversial threads, which I thought had died but got brought back up and wasn't discussed like it had been before.

However, banning all non-FIRST discussions, is most definitely a bad idea. If you have a forum specifically geared towards one topic only, and can't talk about anything else, it will die very quickly, cause people have opinions on lots of things and want to talk about them. Especially with something as seasonal as FIRST, it's like saying on a baseball forum you can't talk about anything else during off-season.

Taking them off of the portal page would be good, if you wanna get the notifications for chit-chat, then just subscribe to the forum.

You also seem to forget that we can help Brandon without being moderators, if you see a thread that is out of hand, you can send him a PM or e-mail or IM and let him know, it's not that hard and then he doesn't have to search through everything.

[Brandon Martus]

Originally posted by Johca_Gaorl
if you see a thread that is out of hand, you can send him a PM or e-mail or IM and let him know, it's not that hard and then he doesn't have to search through everything.

Thats exactly why the 'report this post to a moderator' link is there. I wish people would use it more....

Actually, I wish it didnt have to come to clicking that link at all; but in the event of problems, people should be hitting that link rather than replying & contributing to the nonsense.

[Madison]

Originally posted by ChrisH


While I agree with the above statement, we may not agree on a definition of censorship.

...

Regardless of what you may think, there is a place for proper restraint by those in authority. This website is private property, not public. Those who own it do have the right and responsibility to regulate what is said here, though they have been very lenient and gracious and have rarely needed to step in and do so. I feel this is a credit to the larger community that they have invited to visit. But if, for some reason, the powers that be at Chief Delphi decided to close this website to all of those NOT on their team, it would not be censorship. You might miss it, but you would not even have grounds to complain. You would also be free to build your own similar website to fill the hole that loss of this one would leave in the FIRST community.

Freedom means responsibility. It seems that some are being irresponsible, so some of their freedom may need to be curtailed for the benefit of the larger community. This may be regretable, but it is NOT censorship.

First, I should probably note that my choice of words was probably inappropriate. I agree with your definition of censorship in most regards. Rather, I feel that limiting the scope of discussion in most regards is a bad idea. Admittedly, though, that is because of my own interest in experiencing life and people as multi-dimensional entities.

Neal Probert wrote, "I think the chit-chat and non-FIRST topic areas should be shut down. This is not censorship, but the real-world reality in the office workplace where professionalism is demanded of you."

Indeed, this may be the case. However, on the job and in person, you're given a much better opportunity to know your coworkers. Again, this stems from my own desire to be involved with people just as much, if not more then, I desire to be involved in robotics.

I recognize that this is ChiefDelphi's site. They're free to do with it whatever they want. Ultimately, I decide at what level I shall participate here. My hope, though, is that someone values my input enough to consider my opinion. That's the best I can ask for. Whatever Brandon decides to do is, really, not something I have any right to complain about. I may regret it, I may curb or end my participation on these forums entirely, or I may just carry on like normal. But, each of those is my decision.

All in all, just like with many of the other disagreements that seem to pop up here from time to time, it's a matter of differing philosophy. My involvement in FIRST has been life-saving. It reaches far beyond a professional level in many respects. It is my family. For others, I understand that FIRST is a job like any other - and while you may have passion for what you're doing here, it's easy to view it as a job. I can't do that and I apologize for that. But, I also don't feel it's anyone's place to tell me how I should relate to this program.

Beyond that, I'm in no mood to get into a discourse on free speech on the Internet. It's too sticky.

ChrisH - the case you're thinking of, for what it's worth, is Schenck vs. United States.

[Brandon Martus]

I don't plan on shutting down the chit-chat forum any time soon. Its good to have a place to talk about stuff besides FIRST, and not just on the off-season. Just, when it gets out of control, and could get to the point of driving people away from the forums is when the moderators have to step in.

I have to agree with Chris when he said The Chit-Chat forum should be viewed as something comparable to a "break room" at a job. I think this place could survive on 100%-FIRST, non-stop; but I also think it can survive with normal civilized conversation & debate. I route for the latter.

The end result relies on the parties involved and what they contribute.

[Adam Y.]

I think the chit-chat and non-FIRST topic areas should be shut down.
What do I do if I have a question about non-First related robotics?? Should I still post it in the First areas for the specific topic.

[Bill Gold]

Originally posted by Brandon Martus
I have to agree with Chris when he said The Chit-Chat forum should be viewed as something comparable to a "break room" at a job.
I thought I said that ;)

[Brandon Martus]

Originally posted by Bill Gold

I thought I said that ;)

Yeah. Oops :)

[Ken Leung]

It all comes down to these two questions: Are things bad enough that they are affecting normal operation of Chief Delphi forum? Are the non-FIRST discussions setting a bad example for others because of bashing, trolling, and flaming?

The most important function of the CD forum is for FIRST participants to talk about different things in FIRST, and meet other FIRSTers, and share & learn with others. While that’s probably not the exact mission statement for this place, it should be pretty close.

Now, if the Chit Chat section got out of hand so much such that its interfering with any of the above, like flooding the forum so much that other conversations are washed away by them, or having too much heated discussions that they are driving people away and setting bad examples for other new members, than we will have good reasons to shut it down. But that hasn’t happened yet, and I hope it never will. The only reason for shutting down Chit Chat, or censoring certain posts, will be because they are ruining the spirit of the forum.

So far, everything is just contained inside chit chat that its not interfering with all the other main forums, with the exception of flooding the portal page. I really like the idea of taking out chit chat links from the portal page… After all, for the people who care about it enough, they will be inside the CC forum looking up the threads in no time.


The idea for having a time limit, is to get people to understand that they shouldn’t keep filling into a thread once the main points have been discussed thoroughly, which at that point, are just adding on non-sense discussions onto the thread. If you are having a constructive, intellectual discussion, by all means continue until you are fully satisfy with all the argument. At the end, it will probably be a case-by-case time limit because there are different kinds of discussions going on…

I really suggest you to be smart about this when you post a controversial topic. Have someone act as an organizer of the thread, figure out what kind of things you want to talk about in the thread, and have an organized discussion rather than just blindly stating opinions. It would do no good if everyone just shout out at the same time. This will be good for managing the forum, and for your learning experience as well.

The only reason for having a set time limit is that if there’s sooo much discussions that all of the moderators can’t keep up with them and have to rely on a set number to make sure things don’t get out of hand. Besides, having a time limit might push people who care about the topic enough to post replies fasters, and ending the discussion faster…

Keep in mind, (I’ve said this in another post before @ http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=101435#post101435 ), that you are setting an example once you start posting in the forum, whether its good or bad. You got a responsibility to think about what you post before you actually press the “post thread” and “submit reply” buttons. Understand that other new members will be looking up to you to see how postings are supposed to be done. The idea I had above, to have an organizer of the thread, is one good way of showing a good example to others beside just making good posts. Also, I like the idea of treating this place as a “break room”. If most of you like these idea too, then support it by spreading the idea around in your posts/replies in the CC forum. Teach by example and not by lecturing.



Mean while, when I read the above posts about talk of censorship and shutting down Chit Chat, people are acting as if they are completely shut out by CD if that happen… Remember that the forum is started by people too, not the government. If you don’t think the forums in here satisfy your need to discuss non-FIRST things, it is ok for you to create another forum else where, and then put a link in main page for people who are interested to go in and have discussions. I am not saying that you guys should take your conversation else where, rather I am suggesting that if you care about this enough, then you should be willing to do something to create a forum suitable to your need of freedom of expression.

Also, while it is true that Chief Delphi own this forum and can do whatever they want, I still believe that they are reasonable people and will listen to other’s suggestions. I’ve seen it happen many times, and I know it will happen again regarding this matter. Please be reasonable, considerate, and thoughtful too.


So, let’s all think about this a little bit, and see what happens to the poll.

[mtaman02]

Brandon

I agree with everyone here. This is your website u should not have to continually worry about whos doing what on your website. Close the Chit Chat forum or limit the amount of posts that one user can make along with a Thread time limit. either way when the thread closes u should not have to say why it was closed. Threads closed Times up want to have the last word fine theres PM/EMAIL/PHONE Calls/IM'ing etc. simple as that



my $20.02 - i get paid this week thats why my opinion rate is high. hehe
;)

[Joe Matt]

Isn't this becomeing one of those nit-picky topics?

But other than that...

No, we should have the chit-chat area. It's a place to blow off steam and to discuss intrests with people who you know are smart and mature.

As for locking, if it gets to slaming and flaming, yes, but locking all threads that makes one person quesy, that's just wrong. There should be a general concensus with all the people on CD if there is a closing of a thread.

[Wetzel]

I just dont want anymore emails from that damnable Word Association thread.:(

Also, might the karma system in vB3 be helpful?


Wetzel
~~~~~~~
I never goto the portal, I have index.html as my homepage

[AdamT]

Originally posted by Wetzel
I just dont want anymore emails from that damnable Word Association thread.:(

You can turn off e-mail replies. You can do it in your profile options and you can manually select it every time you reply to a thread.

[Melancholy]

I think that it would be a good idea to seperate the portal page into two sections during Robot Season. This way, anything important in the technical discussion or in the competition forums aren't jumbled among the rumor mill and chit-chat sections.

[Clark Gilbert]

Is there a way to make it so the chit-chat forum is an option to users? Basically what i'm saying is you could make a check box under profile-->options (or whatever it is) to show or not show the chit-chat forum. This could include removing the forum from your main forum page all together or just making it so new threads dont appear. Or maybe it's possible to also make it so new chit-chat stuff doesnt show on the portal page when this option is turned off (chit-chat off).

W/O any knowledge of how this site is made it still seems like a lot of work. :)

[Brandon Martus]

Originally posted by Clark Gilbert
...seems like a lot of work. :)


Yep. The best I can do is subscribe you to everything BUT the chit-chat, and you can just view 'new subscribed threads' instead of 'new threads'. And then you'd just have to ignore the Chit-Chat forum when browsing.

The Chit-Chat threads have been removed from the portal page. This site is about robotics... not word associations. :)

[Joel Glidden]

Just code an AI anti-rant daemon and have it parse each new post.

-Joel

[dixonij]

But the chit chat forums are fun. this site wouldnt be as fun if it were all first all the time. we all need a break from this once and a while.

[David Kelly]

back in the day, '99 & '00 there was no such thing as chit-chat forums. We talked FIRST ALL the time and it was fun. We know that a chit-chat forum isn't necessary, but it is neat to have.

[Elgin Clock]

I like the time limit idea but I think it would work better if maybe you can only reply to a thread 2 times a day, unless you are the thread starter, where you would need to comment and or reply to comments in the thread a little more often then.

Wow was that a run-on sentence or what??
Oh Well!!

[SlamminSammy]

Originally posted by Neal Probert
I think the chit-chat and non-FIRST topic areas should be shut down... The technical reason for closing down the chit chat and non-FIRST topics are that it consumes resources. The legal reasons for closing that area down is that Chief Delphi is liable for damaging content (libel, slander, ...).


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
--Benjamin Franklin

[JVN]

I think that a time limit should definitely be implemented on a case-by-case basis if at all. I think that some debates deserve to be "dragged on" a little bit longer than others.

I trust the moderators implicitly to decide when such debates have dragged on for too long. As someone once said in the forums, Brandon is God. To tell you the truth, I agree with this statement. I've been reading CD for a little over 2 years now and it seems like the need to close a thread is a new thing. Now whenever I'm reading and I feel like things have begun to drag out, I get a glimpse of that happy little orange dizzy face, a quick note from Brandon, and a locked thread.

I feel the moderators should just use their own discretion, not put any set time-limit on a thread. If the current moderators don't feel up to the task, perhaps more dedicated (level-headed) FIRSTers (like Dave and Ken) should become Mods.

I've only seen one, maybe two examples of someone truly disagreeing with a Moderator's decision. However I can see people getting truly angry and reposting a subject when a timer runs out and a post closes.

As for getting rid of the Chit-Chat forum...
For those people who think Chit-Chat is a bad thing: would abolishing the forum stop the chatter, or would it just bring it more heavily into the more serious, FIRST-related forums?
Personally I enjoy the chatter... we don't want to take ourselves too seriously do we?

I love this message board. My personal FIRST philosophy is "There is always something to teach, and always something to learn" and this message board provides a perfect place for both learning, and teaching to occur on an international level. Where else are you going to be able to ask engineers from Delphi, GM, NASA, UTC (and so many more) about... basically anything you want to know? The collective experience of this forum is amazing. I'd be surprised if there was something that not one of us knows about. I think people just need to keep this in mind, and remember how lucky we are to be where we are!

I apologize for ranting.

*Bows to Brandon*
Thank you for letting me play in YOUR domain!

[Brandon Martus]

Originally posted by JVN
perhaps more dedicated (level-headed) FIRSTers (like Dave and Ken) should become Mods.

Yep. I agree[d], and made those two mini-me's of the Chit-Chat forum yesterday or the day before.


Thank you for letting me play in YOUR domain!

I've said it before, I'll say it again: It wouldn't be here if there weren't 2000 of you to use it. Its yours.