Phone Policy

[thunderbotsgirl]

Hi All!

I am a new mentor and actually one of the 2 directors of FRC 1646 Precision Guessworks. I love my students and they're awesome and are already most of the way done with Chairman's and a robot rebuild. They recently had a lock in and it was a great experience for team building and productivity. During this lock in, we took their phones and they didn't have them until their parents got them. They were extremely productive and now that they've been meeting since their lock in, they're still productive, but I noticed that they use their phones while working which I can't help but think slows them down a bit. I know they don't have their phones during school, so I really don't want to be that mentor, but at the same time I'm just wondering what other teams have in place for this kind of thing.

Thanks!

[ABreyen]

Hey there

I am a student on team 2232.

Currently our policy is to not be on your phone/other technology (laptops, iPads, etc) unless it is needed for the task at hand. If you are sitting on your phone for 90% of the meetings, you really shouldn't be there.

[DonRotolo]

I'm from a generation before cellphones. Most students are not using their phones for team tasks, but for ***book, whatevergram, texting and such: This is how the millennial generation communicates with each other.

We mustn't take away this essential (for them) thing, but do them a service by teaching them responsible use. They inherently understand there's a time & place, but it needs to be said that FRC time is not one of those places, with valid exceptions.

Multitasking is a myth.

[tjwolter]

If we are not keeping them too busy to waste time in this fashion then we, as mentors, have to bear some of the responsibility. I keep a few tedious, non time critical jobs in reserve for the inevitable pauses when steps 6, 7, 8 in the work flow are pending as the team doing steps 3, 4, 5 labors.

T. Wolter

[GeeTwo]

We enforce "no earbuds" policy, and no phone use except for the task at hand, or to coordinate with family pickups and other emergencies. We encourage (but do not enforce) students and mentors to check their phones in to the same pocket they check their goggles out of. (We have a pocket and pair of goggles for each team member, plus some guest pockets.)

[Cothron Theiss]

I've never really noticed that members were using phones while they were supposed to be working, but we definitely have to deal with the members that come in with an aversion to work. I would try and fix that by giving them enough work I knew they didn't want to do that soon they would find something productive they were actually interested in so that I couldn't give them more work. (I'm only slightly joking.) And if we're taking a slight break, or if one member steps away for a bit to check their phone, I don't care if they're arranging a ride with their parents or checking Facebook or twiddling their virtual thumbs. The people that want to work do so.

[guniv]

We don't have a phone policy. Usually it isn't a big deal that they're off-task with their phone, it's usually something else anyways or they're just the kids that's always off-task.

Our school is a 1:1 tech school so most of our students are accustomed to the idea that tech can go both ways.

Honestly, something our team is trying to do is.. use less chairs. Especially our programmers. We've found that offering students places to sit allows them to slack off more, so only certain areas have seats (business, for example) while engineering areas have no seats and we're working on moving programming to some standing desks. The off-task kids don't want to STAND around, they want to SIT around. So we're taking away that option.

[sanddrag]

People on our team work. People who don't work aren't on our team. The phone can be a tool or a toy. Students on our team use it as a tool. Students who use it as a toy are not on our team.

[marshall]

I'm from a generation before cellphones. Most students are not using their phones for team tasks, but for ***book, whatevergram, texting and such: This is how the millennial generation communicates with each other.

We mustn't take away this essential (for them) thing, but do them a service by teaching them responsible use. They inherently understand there's a time & place, but it needs to be said that FRC time is not one of those places, with valid exceptions.

Multitasking is a myth.

I love the cranky old guy essence of this post. It made me smile.

[Sperkowsky]

We have no phone policy other then if you bring a charger in the room everyone can use it.

When students are at robotics they are there because they want to in their free time. If they want to check instagram while working on something quick it doesn't bother me and general if people are motivated enough to show up they are motivated enough to work. I'm actually appalled that teams have phone policies and think it's quite ridiculous. Many schools have dropped their phone policies all together with quite a few being quite relaxed about them.

A phone policy to me is just a good way to not retain members. I'm not sure I would have stayed in robotics and gotten hooked if when I showed up they made me put my phone away.

[Jon Stratis]

Cell phones can be a distraction in a shop, and lead to dangerous situations... For us, no cell phone use at all in the shop, and otherwise they can only use them for coordinating rides (normally with parents, but sometimes siblings or other). At one point we had a " phone basket" everyone would put their phone in when they got to the space, but we've stopped doing this, and the students have been responsible.

[Max Boord]

Hi All!
During this lock in, we took their phones and they didn't have them until their parents got them. They were extremely productive and now that they've been meeting since their lock in, they're still productive, but I noticed that they use their phones while working which I can't help but think slows them down a bit. I know they don't have their phones during school, so I really don't want to be that mentor, but at the same time I'm just wondering what other teams have in place for this kind of thing.

Don't be that mentor. Remembering back to when I was a student I was more than happy to put my phone away if I was asked to do something productive instead of doing whatever I was doing on my phone 99% of the time. No 14-18 year old wants to be told to put there phone away just because an adult says so. They just dealt with that for 6 hours earlier in the day. Also remember that these are students not machines. 15 minutes spent on a phone every once and a while is a necessary part of life and is potentially necessary for them to be in the shop in the first place.

People on our team work. People who don't work aren't on our team. The phone can be a tool or a toy. Students on our team use it as a tool. Students who use it as a toy are not on our team.

This pretty much describes how my teams treat phones. They are often used to look up stuff like drill and tap charts, vexpro part numbers, COTS part dimensions and old robot photos amungst other uses. People that want to sit on Facebook all day generally opt to do so from the comfort of there own home and not a noisy and hot machine shop. People that want to spend there day working on the robot or helping out with our phone based scouting system come into the shop with both of those tasks requiring the occasional use of cell phones.

[SoftwareBug2.0]

We don't have a cell phone policy. It might have something to do with the fact that we tend to meet places with remarkably bad cell coverage. It's so bad that if people need to make a call they will wander outside to get a better signal.

[techhelpbb]

I am stuck tethered to my phone for my job.
If I do not check if fairly frequently it can cost someone's life savings except on a rare day truely off.
Even when I am changing jobs like now, I am still responsible for some things that are serious matters.

That said phones do not belong distracting you while operating machines.

I think it is well within the duty of a team to teach our students how to be productive with this ever present distraction if we can.

[Greg Hainsworth]

We haven't written the no-phone policy but we have warned members that if they aren't working, rules will be implemented and FRC will become more like school (no fun). We are trying to cultivate their maturity - help them on that path to being adults. Do your work because it needs to be done, not because there is someone standing over your shoulder. I don't have enough bandwidth to herd a team of cats.

So far, its working. But there are a few stray cats in the bunch. We encourage the senior members to watch out for the junior members when this starts happening to draw them back on task. As long as it stays fun, the members want to be there and they look forward to the next meeting.

When it starts feeling like school.... even I don't want to be there.

[waffle_dynasty]

Our shop is in an area with no cell phone service so this isn't really a problem

[mathking]

Our students are supposed to be working when they have work to do. So if they are distracted (whether they are on a cell phone or some other form of distraction) someone will talk to them. Often it just takes one comment from a student team leader. Sometimes one of the mentors. That said, we rarely have a build session in which there is no down time for anyone. It is often the case that two groups are working on parts of a larger system, and one group finishes first. If a student is checking email, replying to a text, posting to Instagram or looking at Facebook while they wait for something else to be completed I treat them the same way I would want my employer to treat me if I were posting to ChiefDelphi while I am in a planning period avoiding a mountain of grading.

I am from a generation well before cell phones. So I have had something of an aversion to their ubiquity (not that everyone has them but that so many people use them all the time). But I am also a trained statistician who has about 45 semester hours of history classes. So I know that every generation sees the apocalypse and the end of civilization as we know it in things the current generation does. (Witness the vast legions of teachers and others who insist that students have lost the ability to write because of social media, texting and the internet. In spite of the evidence that students today are better writers on the average than students 20, 30 or 40 years ago.) There have been many times when a cell phone picture or the timely finding of a YouTube video or set of instructions on a cell phone has jumped our robot building forward. So I try to focus on behaviors that aren't good, like not paying attention while in the shop, rather than a blanket assumption that a student on a cell phone at a meeting is a bad thing.

[Mark McLeod]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/isolation.png

[bkahl]

I am stuck tethered to my phone for my job.


Would sure be a shame if you missed a phone call. :p

-------------

125 doesn't have a phone policy. I think its a bit outrageous to require students to turn over their phones for an optional, after school activity that inspires and recognizes the use of technology.

We use the mobile app for slack for team communication. Requiring students to turn over phones would inhibit us from communicating effectively.

Maybe instead of taking technology away from these inspired students, education on proper and professional use would be more beneficial for them?

[Jon Stratis]

We use the mobile app for slack for team communication. Requiring students to turn over phones would inhibit us from communicating effectively.


I just have to ask... how does having students off their phones while at a team meeting inhibit you from communicating effectively? Can't you just say "hey everyone, listen up! I have some effective communications you need to hear!" I honestly don't know how cell phones improve communication among people that are co-located.

[BigJ]

I just have to ask... how does having students off their phones while at a team meeting inhibit you from communicating effectively? Can't you just say "hey everyone, listen up! I have some effective communications you need to hear!" I honestly don't know how cell phones improve communication among people that are co-located.

If people have push notifications, it can be easier to call someone from the shop across the hall (or farther?) into a computer lab for a question etc, than have to walk over yourself or send a runner. We started using Slack last year and it is great for stuff like that (but really shines at competition)

[Libby K]

Totally agree that a 'phone jail' only makes things worse in a lot of cases. Our set of policies took a few years to really settle into, but at this point our students see it as a part of the deal while being on the team - and respect that putting your phone away and engaging with the team is what's asked of them as a 1923 student.

During meetings: When the whole team is together, with a handful of leaders or mentors addressing them - we have two rules. No cell phone use, and no side conversations. Our team is big (120+ this year) and if we're trying to get a piece of information to the whole room, it's probably because it needs to be heard. It's a respect thing, but it's also an efficiency thing.

If it's something small, like one kid playing a game on their phone off to the side, one of the mentors or leaders will walk over to them and remind them of the rule. If it's something big and disruptive, like 6 kids talking in the back amongst themselves, we end up having to do the classic "I'll wait" teacher move...

In our shop: Same basic idea - if we're having a group discussion on something, the phones need to be away. If their parents call them, then go ahead and step away, take the call as needed - but don't let it be a distraction. The students use their phones to contribute to their engineering notebook, so it would be silly to take them away entirely. If we see them totally disengaging from their build time and spending it on facebook, instagram, snapchat, texting their buddies - then we remind them they're here to work. They can scroll social media when they're waiting for their ride home.

During any down time, they're on their phones. Sometimes, so am I! It's just the nature of using the device for communication, entertainment, and managing your life.

On trips, they are welcome to use their phones for the bus ride, in the hotel, and most importantly - communicating with their family! - but when they're in the stands during ceremonies or while scouting, we make sure the phones are away unless absolutely necessary. That's the big one for us - show us that you want to be there! If you didn't come to the competition to be a part of the competition, why did you take up a seat on the bus?

TL;DR We don't do phone jail, but expect our students have their phones away during important discussions, while working on the robot, scouting, or out of respect for an event's ceremonies.

[bkahl]

I just have to ask... how does having students off their phones while at a team meeting inhibit you from communicating effectively? Can't you just say "hey everyone, listen up! I have some effective communications you need to hear!" I honestly don't know how cell phones improve communication among people that are co-located.

We operate off Northeastern's College campus in a pretty small lab.

With somewhere between 80-100 students and mentors, we can't all fit in the build space and lab. Thus, every sub-team breaks up into separate class rooms, sometimes spread out over the campus. Effective communication between these groups relies upon Slack, and thus our mobile devices, may it be a phone or laptop.

[Rick]

78 requires both students and mentors to store phones while in our shop for safety and productivity reasons. We have a designated area to use phones if needed.

[techhelpbb]

Would sure be a shame if you missed a phone call. :p


Literally.
Do you know what servers and security I am monitoring?

Let's start with 2 stock exchanges and keep going...
I get the 'fun' of cleaning up other people's crisis for a living.

At one point the security of 14 huge banks depended on my checking my phone often.

Now frankly, I could just put it down, and I do when operating machines.
However staying out of touch for many hours at a time is a very bad idea.

Yes this includes sleep - if my phone goes off in the middle of the night I basically need to check it.

It's gotten better since I moved up the leadership ladder.
Now my jobs are less operational - still I have an obligation to know that I need to check on my crew.

Good news is trading hours are not usually FIRST hours.
Bad news is that security breach attempts are designed to target patterns where you are not going to respond.

Does it annoy me? Yes it's quite annoying at times.
I often have to pull over just to deal with my phone and minimize my train rides underground.

This is why I've never been a CSA/FTAA too far from my current access to computing resources.

[frcguy]

Maybe instead of taking technology away from these inspired students, education on proper and professional use would be more beneficial for them?

+1

[Cothron Theiss]

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Mark McLeod again.

In all seriousness, I think that many teams work in separate locations on a pretty regular basis. My team used to work out of one teacher's closet and the closet of the wood shop on the other side of campus. I wish we had used our phones a lot more so we had retained better communication. Now we at least keep everyone within shouting distance. However, we often have subteams run to a local McDonalds to use their WiFi, since we don't have access to the WiFi at the school we work at.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Literally.
Do you know what servers and security I am monitoring?

Let's start with 2 stock exchanges and keep going...
I get the 'fun' of cleaning up other people's crisis for a living.

At one point the security of 14 huge banks depended on my checking my phone often.

Now frankly, I could just put it down, and I do when operating machines.
However staying out of touch for many hours at a time is a very bad idea.

Yes this includes sleep - if my phone goes off in the middle of the night I basically need to check it.

It's gotten better since I moved up the leadership ladder.
Now my jobs are less operational - still I have an obligation to know that I need to check on my crew.

Good news is trading hours are not usually FIRST hours.
Bad news is that security breach attempts are designed to target patterns where you are not going to respond.

Does it annoy me? Yes it's quite annoying at times.
I often have to pull over just to deal with my phone and minimize my train rides underground.

This is why I've never been a CSA/FTAA too far from my current access to computing resources.

Seems like a pretty bad system if it relies on one person to have cellular connectivity. Seems that having multiple folks with that responsibility would be better if it really is as important as you claim.

[kyle_hamblett]

While we don't have any specific rules about phone usage, there is kind of an unspoken rule about them. If they're being used to be productive, then by all means it is allowed. I know I have found myself looking things up on VexPro more than once. However, if it is becoming a distraction and an individual is say texting or playing games, they will be talked to. In the shop, it has gotten to the point where we do have a place for phones if they become too much of a distraction.

[techhelpbb]

Seems like a pretty bad system if it relies on one person to have cellular connectivity. Seems that having multiple folks with that responsibility would be better if it really is as important as you claim.


Now frankly, I could just put it down, and I do when operating machines.
However staying out of touch for many hours at a time is a very bad idea.
...
It's gotten better since I moved up the leadership ladder.
Now my jobs are less operational - still I have an obligation to know that I need to check on my crew.


Thanks for your concern.
That's a quote from my original post.

You know what it takes to start a financial services company?
A lot of money so early in my career there were often sub-optimal staff for this duty.
It was compensated for with automation.
I wrote a lot of that automation with REST/SOAP, Bash/Ksh, Perl, Python, Ruby and even some VBA for reporting.

Would you seriously suggest I leave a script unattended merely to avoid my inconvenience?
Would you chance leaving your team's FRC robot running unattended and fully autonomous during a match?
Would you bet your retirement on a script that could be fingerprinted or fail to account for the nuances of a security issue?

Even if you answer yes to any of those queries I am afraid that you would be the minority.
People expect their money to stay where they put it and their financial transactions to operate as intended.

If there was an irregularity at my former position federal agencies took notice fairly quickly.
My obligation was stop anything that would cause anyone else to have to act.

I would say those automation skills served me very well considering it would now be considered: SecOps/DevOps
My work in that environment made it possible for us to achieve ISO27001 security certification with a very small number of issues to remediate.
So basically what this translates to is that our security was considered actually very good by some of the highest industry standards.

[bkahl]

If there was an irregularity at my former position federal agencies took notice fairly quickly.


http://i.makeagif.com/media/11-02-2016/pfRZPk.gif

((I hope his phone wasn't in his pocket))

[techhelpbb]

http://i.makeagif.com/media/11-02-2016/pfRZPk.gif

((I hope his phone wasn't in his pocket))

That only actually happened once before I worked there.
It was, in part, the reason I was hired.
No, I am not kidding.

One of the best known hackers in history potentially endangered their systems.

Another reason I was hired was quite simple:
I used to build incredibly fault tolerant systems for the military.
The kinds of things where you can damage 66% of the thing and it still operates.

I used my knowledge of redundancy to my maximum advantage with public and private cloud computing as time went on.
Today I participate in standards committee work for financial systems on cloud and containerization services as well as my other work.

Just one example of the stuff I have interacted with:
http://www.newstarget.com/2016-03-28-financial-armageddon-approaches-as-247-trillion-in-global-derivatives-debt-now-on-the-verge-of-unraveling.html

Wouldn't you send people with guns to secure a critical piece of that?
Wouldn't you take a monitoring alert on your phone if you touched a market with more money than the global GDP in it?

[bkahl]

That only actually happened once before I worked there.
It was, in part, the reason I was hired.
No, I am not kidding.

One of the best known hackers in history potentially endangered their systems.

Another reason I was hired was quite simple:
I used to build incredibly fault tolerant systems for the military.
The kinds of things where you can damage 66% of the thing and it still operates.

I used my knowledge of redundancy to my maximum advantage with public and private cloud computing as time went on.
Today I participate in standards committee work for financial systems on cloud and containerization services as well as my other work.

Just one example of the stuff I have interacted with:
http://www.newstarget.com/2016-03-28-financial-armageddon-approaches-as-247-trillion-in-global-derivatives-debt-now-on-the-verge-of-unraveling.html

Wouldn't you send people with guns to secure a critical piece of that?
Wouldn't you take a monitoring alert on your phone if you touched a market with more money than the global GDP in it?

Interesting stuff-

I just hope all of this information doesn't rely on a private, personal server, or your cell phone. Could get risky for those hackers.

Also- can you explain how a sum of money can be MORE than the World GDP?

[AdamHeard]

http://i.makeagif.com/media/11-02-2016/pfRZPk.gif

((I hope his phone wasn't in his pocket))

A no phone policy would be tough on 973... Obama often calls me to consult for tough decisions he's facing. I am very important afterall.

Luckily we won't have that constraint to balance during the 2017 season!

[techhelpbb]

Interesting stuff-

I just hope all of this information doesn't rely on a private, personal server, or your cell phone. Could get risky for those hackers.

Also- can you explain how a sum of money can be MORE than the World GDP?

One can always bet more than they have in their pockets.
Technically one can bet more than there are physical assets to secure considering the United States is a fiat currency not backed by the gold standard.

There's a lot of people that get alerts these days.
My systems meet the strictest levels of diligence by industry standards.
I have terminated relationships with groups who operate with standards I deem too inferior.
Sure someone could attack me, steal my phone: however in that case my crew would still respond and I would have done my best to do my part.

If you folks think it's a mystery to hackers where I work, how I likely do my job, you'd be extremely wrong. Social engineering is core tool of hackers. They know who I am. They could target me as a defender. It would never be enough for them to achieve their goals. Even my own access would be blocked the minute there was something irregular.

To put this in current perspective:
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2016/09/someone_is_lear.html

[Brandon Holley]

One can always bet more than they have in their pockets.
Technically one can bet more than there are physical assets to secure considering the United States is a fiat currency not backed by the gold standard.

There's a lot of people that get alerts these days.
My systems meet the strictest levels of diligence by industry standards.
I have terminated relationships with groups who operate with standards I deem too inferior.
Sure someone could attack me, steal my phone: however in that case my crew would still respond and I would have done my best to do my part.

If you folks think it's a mystery to hackers where I work, how I likely do my job, you'd be extremely wrong. Social engineering is core tool of hackers. They know who I am. They could target me as a defender. It would never be enough for them to achieve their goals. Even my own access would be blocked the minute there was something irregular.

I feel like I'm reading an episode of Mr. Robot right now....

https://media.giphy.com/media/Ya5CRohcZeLle/giphy.gif

[techhelpbb]

I feel like I'm reading an episode of Mr. Robot right now....

https://media.giphy.com/media/Ya5CRohcZeLle/giphy.gif

“Fiction is the lie through which we tell the truth.”
― Albert Camus

[bkahl]

“Fiction is the lie through which we tell the truth.”
― Albert Camus

https://media.giphy.com/media/ZTYdZ2aBDOati/giphy.gif

[Andrew Schreiber]

Thanks for your concern.
That's a quote from my original post.

You know what it takes to start a financial services company?
A lot of money so early in my career there were often sub-optimal staff for this duty.
It was compensated for with automation.
I wrote a lot of that automation with REST/SOAP, Bash/Ksh, Perl, Python, Ruby and even some VBA for reporting.

Would you seriously suggest I leave a script unattended merely to avoid my inconvenience?
Would you chance leaving your team's FRC robot running unattended and fully autonomous during a match?
Would you bet your retirement on a script that could be fingerprinted or fail to account for the nuances of a security issue?

Even if you answer yes to any of those queries I am afraid that you would be the minority.
People expect their money to stay where they put it and their financial transactions to operate as intended.

If there was an irregularity at my former position federal agencies took notice fairly quickly.
My obligation was stop anything that would cause anyone else to have to act.

I would say those automation skills served me very well considering it would now be considered: SecOps/DevOps
My work in that environment made it possible for us to achieve ISO27001 security certification with a very small number of issues to remediate.
So basically what this translates to is that our security was considered actually very good by some of the highest industry standards.

No. I would, and do, value my health and enjoyment of other activities well above that of my job. And before someone asks, yes I tell my management that. See, I work because I need to earn a living. I have a very strict policy of fire walling my time. I've found this is better for my health and productivity.

I commented that it's a bad policy because I think it causes unnecessary stress which can lead to health problems. I'm glad you draw pride in this but to me it is a sub par solution.

[techhelpbb]

https://media.giphy.com/media/ZTYdZ2aBDOati/giphy.gif

http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/worlds-biggest-data-breaches-hacks/

Welcome to the world wide web. We know all about you.
There's no place to hide ;).

Maybe someone should have picked up their smartphones before they made this visualization?
Nah....

No. I would, and do, value my health and enjoyment of other activities well above that of my job. And before someone asks, yes I tell my management that. See, I work because I need to earn a living. I have a very strict policy of fire walling my time. I've found this is better for my health and productivity.

I commented that it's a bad policy because I think it causes unnecessary stress which can lead to health problems. I'm glad you draw pride in this but to me it is a sub par solution.

You are correct of course this has impacted my health.
It's not easy to have a life when you move at the pace I keep.
In fact people have actually died from health problems trying to keep up with me.

Hence I have consistently moved to make it possible for me to leave the grid more often and with greater independence.
It is still my responsibility to know what is going on in my scope of influence as much as possible.

The issue is really more of one in which the security market's threats are larger than the capacity of most markets to expend on adequate defense. So, for example, if I build something that depends on DynDns...not to long ago it would have been down for most of Friday.
https://dyn.com/blog/dyn-statement-on-10212016-ddos-attack/

Course now we even have people that want to pump code straight into production using DevOps automation.
So if it's not an external issue it is managing the internal risks created by increased production demands.

[frcguy]

https://media.giphy.com/media/ZTYdZ2aBDOati/giphy.gif

I'll throw in the obligatory

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to bkahl again.

[Cothron Theiss]

Apparently I'm inept at attaching gifs.

[marshall]

In fact people have actually died from health problems trying to keep up with me.

I'm sorry for your loss.

[techhelpbb]

I'm sorry for your loss.

Thank you for respecting those that paid the highest price in exchange for what our technology has wrought.

[bkahl]

Thank you for respecting those that paid the highest price in exchange for what our technology has wrought.

Ive changed my mind.

We should all ask our students to sacrifice their phones in memory of these beautiful souls.

[techhelpbb]

Ive changed my mind.

We should all ask our students to sacrifice their phones in memory of these beautiful souls.

Sure and the world will get less connected tomorrow.
Just like that...
Except it won't.
It's Pandora's Box and once it is open it can't be shut.

I will say that everyone should watch and teach their kids how to use this technology properly. So that means find a path you like, but don't be surprised if blocking your students from the technology leaves them unprepared when they encounter it and they will.

I will also say it would be foolish not to point out that there are enormous opportunities for students to have a career in information security. Not all these jobs need to be like mine. The ultimate goal should be to better engineer the entire process such that there's enough people to pull shifts and to harden everything better (there's a vast amount of things my systems depend on that I don't control and form risks I must manage). I grew up building weapons to fight wars. So for me to fight an information war is right in line with where I started.

Also I seriously doubt those people would appreciate watching their sacrifice be used as you are suggesting.
We all manage risk, even those without phones operating machine tools.
You can't avoid all risk or you loose opportunities to benefit.
So unless you're prepared to ban power tools because people have died operating them...

[D_Price]

We have a policy throughout "Build Season" that all students entering the classroom turn off their phones. Not specifically give them over but just turn them off. Also, all the computers in our design lab are turned off unless the design team is in the room, eliminating the teen urge to play on the computer other than do robotics work or homework. :D It works well as everyone is attentive at meetings and the other students help out if someone is on their phone.

[bduddy]

This is one of the times that it strikes me how much has changed since I was in high school, less than 10 years ago. Back in my day (lol) we could, technically, access the Internet on our phones, but it really, really wasn't worth it. Oh how things have changed...


As for my opinion on the question: One thing that should be important to all FIRST times is lowering the barrier to entry in every way they can. The team members that aren't paying attention not only are the ones that can benefit the most from FIRST, they may be the students the teams can benefit from the most... if they're engaged with rather than being driven out.

[Jon Stratis]

How did this thread change from a discussion about cell phone use on teams to one about the all mighty importance one user? I mean, really?

[techhelpbb]

How did this thread change from a discussion about cell phone use on teams to one about the all mighty importance one user? I mean, really?

Someone thought it better to focus on me than the topic?

Anyway - it got back on point: phone use during FIRST is a risk to manage.
There are likely a lot of opinions on how to best manage that risk.
However there are aspects of these solutions that should be considered.
Merely banning phones will not teach students how to handle their use better.

[Cothron Theiss]

How did this thread change from a discussion about cell phone use on teams to one about the all mighty importance one user? I mean, really?

For the same reason people can't look away from a train wreck as it's about to happen.

[techhelpbb]

For the same reason people can't look away from a train wreck as it's about to happen.

Look it's only the future of the economy.
A necessary skill for managing life in a digital economy.

It's not that big a deal :D.

I mean just because the maps from that DynDNS attack look like something straight out of War Games:
https://krebsonsecurity.com/2016/10/hacked-cameras-dvrs-powered-todays-massive-internet-outage/

Just because your automobiles are now getting 5.9GHz interconnection systems to make your car like FIRST robot:
http://www.broadcom.com/blog/automotive-technology-2/wireless-tech-is-only-the-beginning-in-the-connected-car/
http://www.fiercewireless.com/tech/analyst-questions-dsrc-based-v2v-communications-for-vehicle-safety-points-to-lte-advanced-and
(Imagine Einstein issues on I80 if you will)

Seriously...nothing to concern ourselves with...

Now back to cell phone usage risk...cause if you focus on the scale of this interconnectivity security problem...yeah it does seem basically enormous.

[Pauline Tasci]

To distract from the insanity of this thread....
I'd like to answer Kaitlyn's original question.

On 3476 we do not ban phones but rather encourage a working environment.
In the real world, college classes, ect people will have their phones out and while it can be a distraction it can also be a very useful tool. We usually open up small drawings, look up rules, post on our build blog, take videos, ect.

If students aren't working hard and just sitting playing something; a student or mentor will come up to the student and encourage them to make use of their time at robotics.

For starting the year, many students consider their phone their safety shield when they don't know anyone. So you might see a lot of students on their phone, do your best to make them feel apart of the team and the family!


Making the students feel like time at robotics is valued is really key!

Hope things are going well at Purdue Kaitlyn, we miss you out here in SoCal!

[techhelpbb]

Does anyone have a policy about banning specific content and communities from phones and other Internet devices they would like to share?

I know on several occasions people I've talked to have suggested banning various forums like Reddit and even Chief Delphi that on the surface pertain to FIRST but often stray because of the trolling opportunities going on.

I'm actually curious if the teams are approaching this as the serious waste of time it can be? I mean some people will try to get your goat just to see if they can push your buttons because they find that amusing. Some don't even care if there are consequences. I can't think of anything more counter productive and likely harmful to inclusive goals. Once you start feeling like a chunk of your community is predatory you really are straying into territory FIRST shouldn't - there's fun - then there's going too far.

There is no single force in FIRST that makes me feel less interested in being generous than the stuff that goes on in some of the forums attached to it. I think that's a real shame because it sets the idea in motion that trolling on all forums is tolerable, necessary and a practiced skill that improves the level of debate when, in reality, it usually results in long difficult to follow topics that are sensational but poor solutions to questions.

So doesn't anyone have a policy to specifically discourage their students from engaging in this activity during meetings and competitions? I can't think of any situation where it is more harmful and distracting than when time is critical or limited. I figure there must be some official policy out there on various teams because as a CSA I've suggested searching Chief Delphi to teams for occasional solutions and sometimes they are unwilling. It may just be the inefficiency of the medium.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Does anyone have a policy about banning specific content and communities from phones and other Internet devices they would like to share?

I know on several occasions people I've talked to have suggested banning various forums like Reddit and even Chief Delphi that on the surface pertain to FIRST but often stray because of the trolling opportunities going on.

I'm actually curious if the teams are approaching this as the serious waste of time it can be? I mean some people will try to get your goat just to see if they can push your buttons because they find that amusing. Some don't even care if there are consequences. I can't think of anything more counter productive and likely harmful to inclusive goals. Once you start feeling like a chunk of your community is predatory you really are straying into territory FIRST shouldn't - there's fun - then there's going too far.

There is no single force in FIRST that makes me feel less interested in being generous than the stuff that goes on in some of the forums attached to it. I think that's a real shame because it sets the idea in motion that trolling on all forums is tolerable, necessary and a practiced skill that improves the level of debate when, in reality, it usually results in long difficult to follow topics that are sensational but poor solutions to questions.

So doesn't anyone have a policy to specifically discourage their students from engaging in this activity during meetings and competitions? I can't think of any situation where it is more harmful and distracting than when time is critical or limited. I figure there must be some official policy out there on various teams because as a CSA I've suggested searching Chief Delphi to teams for occasional solutions and sometimes they are unwilling. It may just be the inefficiency of the medium.

Ive always found rambling posts with no point very inefficient too

[techhelpbb]

Ive always found rambling posts with no point very inefficient too

I get it. You don't like me. Now can you answer my question or would you rather continue to target me?
Is that to the point enough for you? Maybe you need some friends to make this tactic seem more okay to you?

[Andrew Schreiber]

I get it. You don't like me. Now can you answer my question or would you rather continue to target me?
Is that to the point enough for you?

I did. I don't suggest my students come here anymore because too often I see posts exactly like I said - rambling semi coherent posts that maybe answer some question that the poster decided to answer rather than anything of real value.

You are hardly the worst offender in this category. Not every post is a dig at you.

[techhelpbb]

I did. I don't suggest my students come here anymore because too often I see posts exactly like I said - rambling semi coherent posts that maybe answer some question that the poster decided to answer rather than anything of real value.

You are hardly the worst offender in this category. Not every post is a dig at you.

Fair enough. I misunderstood your intentions, or not...

From my feedback...
"NOW my post is intentionally disrespectful. Before it was at least thinly veiled."
Nice...

Look this is not cool. Not at all. Just gonna leave it at that and go on with my life.

Since we are going for the pile on: the entire point was that smartphones provide important and immediate access to state of your affairs. It's everywhere and as a professional I have an obligation to pay attention to it when it is safe to do so. I get that some of you can't follow that point anymore with this targeted effort directed at me so I stated it again.

It's a very relevant and valid point. If it brushes you the wrong way the importance of my work - it is more your issue than mine to restrain yourself from distracting this topic yourselves.

Furthering that point, getting notifications from other sources of Internet data which are less relevant (like this site) are frankly are not good reasons to distract from a team meeting or competition goal.

[SeeleySWS]

Fair enough. I misunderstood your intentions, or not...

From my feedback...
"NOW my post is intentionally disrespectful. Before it was at least thinly veiled."
Nice...

Look this is not cool. Not at all. Just gonna leave it at that and go on with my life.

Since we are going for the pile on: the entire point was that smartphones provide important and immediate access to state of your affairs. It's everywhere and as a professional I have an obligation to pay attention to it when it is safe to do so. I get that some of you can't follow that point anymore with this targeted effort directed at me so I stated it again.

It's a very relevant and valid point. If it brushes you the wrong way the importance of my work - it is more your issue than mine to restrain yourself from distracting this topic yourselves.

Furthering that point, getting notifications from other sources of Internet data which are less relevant (like this site) are frankly are not good reasons to distract from a team meeting or competition goal.

But nobody actually asked for your life story on how important you are? (It comes off sounding like bragging)

We don't have a phone policy but try to keep our phone use to a minimum when working. Mostly just common sense usage.

[AlexanderTheOK]

ooooook... back on topic maybe?

During robot programming training I will admit some of my students are on their phones. I have observed several to regularly be playing hearthstone on their mobile devices.

I have also observed students not on their phones randomly showing me "hey check what I did" with OpenCV and going neat (http://i.imgur.com/ZkYogmc.jpg).

I will put reasonable effort into getting students excited to do the thing that I love most, however I am not the police. If students are going to spend our limited sessions on their phones, my time is better spent explaining how neural networks work to the actively engaged students than policing the actively distracted students.


Quite frankly I think this works well because when I do police people, they don't enjoy the thing they're doing anyways and get nothing out of it. IMO the work you do in FRC needs to not feel like work. It needs to be a fun game that happens to result in a fulfilling ($$$) career down the line. If the game on your phone is more fun than teaching a robot to love see, I'm not a skilled enough teacher to change that, and quite frankly haven't had the pleasure of meeting someone who is. I would recommend looking into one of the many other facets of FRC that may capture your interest more thoroughly.

[techhelpbb]

But nobody actually asked for your life story on how important you are? (It comes off sounding like bragging)

No but I responded to this:
"Seems like a pretty bad system if it relies on one person to have cellular connectivity. Seems that having multiple folks with that responsibility would be better if it really is as important as you claim."

Which directly challenges the value of my work and the safety of some very important systems and was a rather specific misreading of information I provided. So is the point that targeting a particular user in this way is okay? Was the goal to suggest that this company's security was poor, cause it seems that way. People don't pay for ISO27001 security certifications to prove they maintain their security so that they can have their integrity questioned publicly in this manner for at best spurious reasons. If you know of a specific security threat, not just silly accusations, report them responsibly.

If Andrew had an issue with this he could have discussed it in private with me then and there.
Anyway, done with this for the night. I defended the people for which I have done work as most of you would understandably have defended: your team, school, or your employers.
If Dean was talking in a forum about his great charity or accomplishments would you all think it wise to go at him like this?

[Hallry]

After numerous reported posts, I'm closing this thread until 12:00 AM Friday November 4th to give everyone some time to cool down for a while.

[Hallry]

As promised, this thread has been reopened. However, I would like to remind everyone of this thread's original post:

Hi All!

I am a new mentor and actually one of the 2 directors of FRC 1646 Precision Guessworks. I love my students and they're awesome and are already most of the way done with Chairman's and a robot rebuild. They recently had a lock in and it was a great experience for team building and productivity. During this lock in, we took their phones and they didn't have them until their parents got them. They were extremely productive and now that they've been meeting since their lock in, they're still productive, but I noticed that they use their phones while working which I can't help but think slows them down a bit. I know they don't have their phones during school, so I really don't want to be that mentor, but at the same time I'm just wondering what other teams have in place for this kind of thing.

Thanks!

As well as the Chief Delphi forum rules (https://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/rules.php):

ChiefDelphi.com reserves the right to remove a post which does not relate to the topic being discussed in the forum. In addition, ChiefDelphi reserves the right to reorganize discussion forums in order to best serve the majority of our members. (ie: topics may, at a moderators discretion, be relocated to a more appropriate discussion forum, or deleted entirely). This also applies to any media uploaded via CD-Media, items in CD-Swap, or any other content on ChiefDelphi.com

ChiefDelphi also reserves the right to prohibit or delete discussions that are thought to violate applicable law, are NOT robotics related, or that may be harmful to other members. Please remember, you are representing not only yourself, but your team and its sponsors, as well as what FIRST stands for. Please try to practice gracious professionalism at all times.

Now let's get back on topic.

[EricH]

I can't say that my team has a specific device policy, per se, but if you're at the shop you're generally expected to be working except during break times. "Working" has a fairly loose definition, mind you--schoolwork, real work (for mentors), and robotics work all count to some degree.

I can see where a total ban would be implausible, and I can see where "anything goes" is inadvisable. Probably the best policy, as noted, is that you not use the phone when you're working (unless your work is being done on the phone)--and, if you need to use the phone, you stop working (unless the work is on the phone) long enough to take care of what you need to take care of.

Honestly, if I'm using my phone during a meeting, it's generally because something that I actually need to know about or deal with has come up. (Unlike most people, I do not have a smartphone--means I only get the important stuff.) Laptop, I'm probably looking at something team-related, or it's available to look something up for someone.

[tickspe15]

From my experience taking a phone away from a kid whose not interested isn't going to make them start working. There is no cell phone service inside our build space but the when the students don't want to work they always find ways to entertain themselves.

I do not view phone use(for not productive things)as a problem but rather a side effect of having unengaged students. Engaging those students is the way to increase productivity, not simply taking away their phones.

[Taylor]

I don't take away phones. Nor would I recommend it*.
However.
I can see the psychological reason for doing so. It sends the subliminal message that important work is to be done here, and distractions should be avoided.

*just because I don't recommend something, does not mean I disagree with it.

[arpita]

Our cell phone rules are fairly lenient, and we haven't had many issues with them.

1. No cell phones before 4pm where a teacher can see you (school rule).
2. No cell phones or technology when we're having team meetings (pre-meetings, post-meetings, post-meal meetings, etc) where we're talking about everything and give announcements.

[remulasce]

Having apparently come from the last generation of FIRSTers that didn't have smartphones in high school (am I old now?), I can tell you for a fact that students don't need smartphones in order to unproductively entertain themselves in a robotics lab.

[GeeTwo]

Having apparently come from the last generation of FIRSTers that didn't have smartphones in high school (am I old now?), I can tell you for a fact that students don't need smartphones in order to unproductively entertain themselves in a robotics lab.

Having come from a generation where I remember the first time I saw color TV, and half a decade later a tiny red LED, I confess that I can unproductively entertain myself with nothing but a blank stare for quite a few minutes. With a steady supply of license plate numbers to factor or a pad of paper and a pen to take up my latest mathematical obsession, I can go on for hours.

Still, that's no reason to ignore the primary ways students have to waste time, and try to reduce them. I described our policy earlier (no earbuds; phones encouraged but not required to go in your goggle pocket; phones to be used only for task, family, and "emergency" purposes during build times - techhelpbb's concerns would definitely have fallen within this last group). For our longer (Saturday) sessions, we do not attempt to limit phone usage during breaks (including meal breaks). Very few of our members actually put their cell phones in the goggle pockets; mostly those who need this as a way to resist the temptation to be called away from the build by their phones.

And, as a flip side to techelpbb, I have NEVER been allowed to take a cell phone into my (US NAVY) office space. Until about two years ago, I had to leave it in my car (could not bring it in the BUILDING at all - no way, no how). About two years ago, my office got some lock boxes for cell phones, but they require that they be turned off if in the boxes; I have opted to leave my cell phone ON in my car rather than OFF in cell phone jail. I'm giving this info as a "calibration" of how cell phone use is proscribed in certain jobs at least.....

[sam1690orbit]

i'm a student in orbit1690 and we don't really have a policy about phones but people are'nt on their phones,if it's family members we answer but for friends or while working we don't use

[Chief Hedgehog]

I'm from a generation before cellphones. Most students are not using their phones for team tasks, but for ***book, whatevergram, texting and such: This is how the millennial generation communicates with each other.

We mustn't take away this essential (for them) thing, but do them a service by teaching them responsible use. They inherently understand there's a time & place, but it needs to be said that FRC time is not one of those places, with valid exceptions.

Multitasking is a myth.

I agree with DonRotolo's post apart from being multitasking being a myth. Multitasking is fancy word for 'distracted'.

[Sperkowsky]

I agree with DonRotolo's post apart from being multitasking being a myth. Multitasking is fancy word for 'distracted'.

I disagree.

As a professional myself it is entirely possible ;).

[New Lightning]

First off I do in fact know that multitasking is not a myth, I'm doing it right now! Second of all, out shop is practically a concrete bunker that has 0 cell services and only one or two spots where you might be able to get data, if your lucky.

But I think that if the student wants to check social media or text a friend that, as long as it doesn't significantly impact their productivity then why not let them use their phones. Students already give so much of their time to robotics that they should have some freedom and allowances to help alleviate boredom on burnout. I could state emphatically that without some kind of mindless release, with which social media provides, I would not enjoy robotics as much as I do, and that would in turn have a negative impact on both me and our team's students.