View Full Version : PCH 2017
Kellen Hill
03-11-2016, 09:42
I thought it would be good to get a thread started to generate discussion for the PCH District (Georgia) for the upcoming 2017 season.
We'll again be having 4 district events with District Champs coming week 6. PCH teams are slotted to attend the Houston Championship Event in week 8.
Week 1: Gainesville Event (Event Link (http://www.firstinspires.org/team-event-search/event?id=25325)) March 3-5
Week 2: Dalton Event (Event Link (http://www.firstinspires.org/team-event-search/event?id=22701)) March 9-11
Week 3: Columbus Event (Event Link (http://www.firstinspires.org/team-event-search/event?id=22505)) March 16-18
Week 4: Albany Event (Event Link (http://www.firstinspires.org/team-event-search/event?id=22699)) March 23-25
Week 6: PCH District Champs (Athens, GA) (Event Link (http://www.firstinspires.org/team-event-search/event?id=22705)) April 5-8
Here is a spreadsheet I've been updating to keep tabs on who has been registering and where. I try to keep it updated, but let me know if you notice any errors.
PCH 2017 Registration (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vauDcPCqIUHyZRu8R1Ru_AeqfvTU22oj6q5vxcYsYr8/edit?usp=sharing)
I am looking forward to another competitive PCH season. 1746 is hoping to keep our Motorola Quality award streak alive after having won 3 of them last year.
Ginger Bread
03-11-2016, 11:16
I'm very surprised to see that 3600 Clockwork hasn't registered yet, last year they had a fairly large group and performed well. Strange how the steampunk themed team isn't in the steampunk game.
I thought it would be good to get a thread started to generate discussion for the PCH District (Georgia) for the upcoming 2017 season.
Here is a spreadsheet I've been updating to keep tabs on who has been registering and where. I try to keep it updated, but let me know if you notice any errors.
PCH 2017 Registration (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vauDcPCqIUHyZRu8R1Ru_AeqfvTU22oj6q5vxcYsYr8/edit?usp=sharing)
I'm curious to see what the final registration numbers will look like. Both Albany and Dalton have surpassed their team totals from last year, and Columbus and Gainesville have met their initial caps. I know there are at least a couplet teams on waitlists, so what those final numbers are should be interesting.
On paper, Columbus and Gainesville look like the premier districts of the season: 1648 is really looking forward to playing with the best of the best from our state.
ttldomination
11-12-2016, 19:24
Hey there folks, inspired by Top 25, we, at PCHQA, are doing a 2017 preseason poll for the top 10 teams in the PCH District.
Go here to vote: https://www.facebook.com/pchqa/posts/215384552246642
- Sunny G.
NoahMinter
12-12-2016, 12:42
Team 6341 is so pumped to compete in PCH this year! We will be attending Dalton and Gainesville! Congrats to all the rookie teams who made it this far!
Who else is super excited to participate in FIRST Steamworks?
BenDSterling
12-12-2016, 13:55
I'm really looking forward to this season! This year I will be running A/V for Gainesville, Dalton, Columbus, and the District Championship.
Also, this season I have the honor of coaching FRC team 6325, Reset Robotics (http://ResetRobotics.org), who will be attending Gainesville and Columbus (and hopefully the District Championship).
I can't wait to see all of you this season!
Ginger Bread
13-12-2016, 11:37
Wow! The district certainly has grown from last year. Now no event has less than 35 teams. I remember Albany only having 25 last year. It's great to see Georgia FIRST grow.
The other Frank sez PCH has 18 slots for Championship south.
PCH Uniformerer
18-12-2016, 01:25
As we get closer to kickoff, we, as a district, need to face the music. Our first year in the district model went about as expected. Plenty of things went well (volunteer turnout, increased collaboration), but we faced just as many, if not more, problems (bouncy house flooring at Columbus, plywood flooring at Kennesaw, no practice elements). From GA First's perspective, it was a good first year under a new system, and they have hopefully addressed many of the problem we faced, but there is one problem they, and many teams will not face.
In 2016 we sent 13 teams to the world championship. The average qualification ranking of those 13 teams was 47.5. This includes 4468's 16th seed, and 1261's 13th seed. Aside from this, PCH events consistently finished as the worst performing events across the nation each week (ranked based off average score, % breach, % capture). To call a spade a spade; we suck.
Now before you scroll off of this post, denying blame for this unfortunate reality (let's be honest the few GA teams following this thread are probably in the top 15), ask yourself if your team is honestly trying to improve the average skill level of PCH teams. Your "elite" team suffers alongside the struggling teams. When you tell someone your team won the PCH championship, do you think they really care? National perception of FRC teams out of Georgia is back to its all time low, after a short lived spike from 2415's 2013 bot.
Back to my point, we aren't any closer to Einstein that we were when championship was hosted in Atlanta. This year, with PCH being allocated 18 spots, we will send an additional 5 teams to their doom at half-champs, so I ask you, my fellow PCHers, when are we going to stop being complacent being the laughing stock of the FRC world? When are we going to stop creating teams just add a tally to our chairman's presentation, and instead focus on helping the existing teams?
I ask this because there is little effort being made.
One great way to contribute will be to make "FRC Georgia Alliance" facebook page active and worthwhile. If you see a post asking for help, take the initiative to be that help. If you discover any game changing information within the game manual, share it. Yeah I know, you're still competing with all of these teams and blah blah blah. But let's be honest, there are 18 teams from Georgia going to half-champs. Any team that builds a robot that can drive has a very good shot of making it.
To sum it all up, HELP EACHOTHER, if for no other reason than to make your team look better after winning a district event.
DonRotolo
18-12-2016, 12:59
To call a spade a spade; we suck
...
To sum it all up, HELP EACHOTHER, if for no other reason than to make your team look better after winning a district event. Indeed, many Georgia teams underperform on a National level, but not for a lack of cooperation.
Having come from a team in New Jersey that hates being called "Elite", but happens to win an awful lot, and watching MAR compete for over a decade I can say that the very best teams here in Georgia would get eaten up alive in MAR.
Before I speculate on why I think that's so, what reasons can you come up with?
To offer some food for thought: Many teams here in GA lack resources, whether it is money, mentors, or build space. But there are several teams that lack for none of these - I am certain you can think of a few. Why aren't these teams competitive at a National level?
NOTE: Please don't let this post reflect on the team I happen to be mentoring. They don't review or approve my posts, and so shouldn't be held responsible for them.
PCH Uniformerer
18-12-2016, 13:59
To offer some food for thought: Many teams here in GA lack resources, whether it is money, mentors, or build space. But there are several teams that lack for none of these - I am certain you can think of a few. Why aren't these teams competitive at a National level?
Sorry, I guess I forgot to add that part. The reason these teams teams aren't competitive is because they don't have to be. These teams know that building a robot that can simply complete all the tasks of the game will serve them well in PCH. For the most part, a Ri3D robot would be able to win at least one district event here. Like I said in my first post, it is being complacent with mediocrity that is hurting us.
We need to help each other not just to raise the skill level of the lower tier teams, but to make the top tier teams even more competitive, because it is from our top teams pushing each other to strive for more that will produce a team competitive on the global scale.
I'm very surprised to see that 3600 Clockwork hasn't registered yet, last year they had a fairly large group and performed well. Strange how the steampunk themed team isn't in the steampunk game.
I've talked with a few members on their team, it looks like they are not doing FRC this year, and are switching to VEX.
jman4747
18-12-2016, 23:31
In
Before I speculate on why I think that's so, what reasons can you come up with?
The following are my observations regarding the city of Atlanta:
1. Correct me if I'm wrong but school systems are not cooperative at all. Like AT ALL.
2. Faculty at many schools aren't usually very excited. Rookie teams seem to loose teachers before funds and outside mentors.
3. The above leads to team attrition; kills student/mentor knowledge base.
4. It's hard to constantly find the kind of money you really need to run an FRC team. Can't buy many parts as a result (among other things).
5. There are very few teams east, west, and south of the inner city.
6. It's not easy to get milling, turning, or sheet metal work done in the time frame FRC teams need in this city. Robots therefore can't be all that advanced and few teams can house or afford a mill/lathe.
7. To many engineers in and around this city don't know about FRC.
Osseus_Dominum
19-12-2016, 00:17
The following are my observations regarding the city of Atlanta:
1. Correct me if I'm wrong but school systems are not cooperative at all. Like AT ALL.
2. Faculty at many schools aren't usually very excited. Rookie teams seem to loose teachers before funds and outside mentors.
3. The above leads to team attrition; kills student/mentor knowledge base.
4. It's hard to constantly find the kind of money you really need to run an FRC team. Can't buy many parts as a result (among other things).
5. There are very few teams east, west, and south of the inner city.
6. It's not easy to get milling, turning, or sheet metal work done in the time frame FRC teams need in this city. Robots therefore can't be all that advanced and few teams can house or afford a mill/lathe.
7. To many engineers in and around this city don't know about FRC.
Regarding #2: Based on what I know from my experience with both VEX and FRC, I think that a lot of schools (public and private) that already have VEX/TSA view those things as an adequate replacement for an FRC team. Therefore they're just not interested in having another robotics activity in their school, especially when it would cost so much more.
ttldomination
19-12-2016, 10:16
To sum it all up, HELP EACH OTHER, if for no other reason than to make your team look better after winning a district event.
Eh, you're on the right track, but I don't think there's any lack of support, either from GA FIRST or from other FRC teams in the PCH district.
To offer some food for thought: Many teams here in GA lack resources, whether it is money, mentors, or build space. But there are several teams that lack for none of these - I am certain you can think of a few. Why aren't these teams competitive at a National level?
Well, ain't that the million dollar question.
Obviously, there are the basics of why a team isn't as successful as it wants to be:
1. Money
2. Mentors
3. Resources
4. Support (Community & School)
However, as you've said, there are teams that have plenty of all 5 and yet, we're still having this discussion. So obviously there are components that are subtle in nature but very important to the secret sauce of what makes a team truly great.
I think one of the more subtle components is ensuring that your team has a culture of competition. Now, PCH has some very competitive teams, but having a competitive culture goes above and beyond simply wanting to win.
A team with competitive culture...
...recognizes competition as an asset, not as a hindrance.
...recognizes that no matter how good you are, there's always room to improve.
...recognizes that failure is a part of the process, but it's not an acceptable outcome.
A solid example of good competitive culture is team 1746. They started off strong, but continued to improve through the season and even carried that progress into the off-season. Many teams, including top-tier teams, would've rested on their laurels, but Otto sought to keep competing, and that's why their stock is incredibly high right now.
But that's just one example; there are many other teams in PCH that definitely seem to have a flash of good competitive culture here and there.
However, at the intersection of all the hard resources, competitive culture, and just pure, raw execution, we're going to get our first national competitor.
- Sunny G.
NoahMinter
19-12-2016, 13:41
However, as you've said, there are teams that have plenty of all 5 and yet, we're still having this discussion. So obviously there are components that are subtle in nature but very important to the secret sauce of what makes a team truly great.
Agreed, I don't know if I would go as far as to say PCH (as a whole) doesn't have a competitive instinct, but I do know there could be more of it.
Faculty at many schools aren't usually very excited. Rookie teams seem to loose teachers before funds and outside mentors.
Or terrified. FRC is a HUGE commitment, and until they have seen the product, they may not be sold. Chances are though, if you can get the students behind it, faculty advisors will feel an obligation to stay.
I'm not sure about the magic formula for the top Georgia teams to "breach" into the edges of Einstein, but there are definitely some subtle lines to be crossed. FRC4188 was able to make it into the finals at Huntsville's Rocket City Regional as an Alliance captain losing to Robonauts (FRC118) and Bomb Squad (FRC16) and beating Children of the Swamp (FRC179) and Cryptonite (FRC624). The 4188 robot got a little worse as it paid the price for its sensitivity to tuning and a late change from tread to wheels during build season. Each team could come up with a lessons learned "page" we could all share - I'll challenge the build roster to post something on FRC Georgia Alliance facebook page.
District has some great potential if more teams could go to a Destination Einstein fields for part of their unbag time within a week of a District competition. It would be great to see teams doing more than get their robot running and have some time to practice interaction skills with the game. :ahh:
By kickoff, I think the Destination Einstein fields in Georgia will have sign-ups for the traditional Week 6 pre-bag&tag scrimmage but also weekends before District events so this would be a possibility. Here is a link to the Columbus DE field registration page: http://destinationeinstein3.wikispaces.com/
MikeReilly
19-12-2016, 19:31
I love the intent of the thread, to grow and nurture PCH, and teams in GA in particular.
As a longtime mentor (1771, 4509, and year off or two), the hours can be long, the most successful teams have the teachers/mentors who can spend the hours, or have a great balance of mentors to share the load.
Bigger picture, let's look at what IS huge in GA: football. Like it or not, GA is one of the top states in the US for football. Why? The feeder system: they start out as 6 year olds, many families even hold the kid back a year to get bigger. In addition, GA rules allow football coaches to get extra stipends in various ways.
As a teacher/sponsor, the cash is nice, but it really is cool to watch you folks light up with that FRC magic. The bigger thing: are we doing all we can to nurture the younger kids? I have also spent the past semester mentoring FLL, VEX IQ and VEX EDR, and they need the help in the younger years!
Look at the places where the top teams in the world are from, and I guarantee you that high school football is not nearly as popular (I'm looking at YOU Simbotics, my Canadian friends...). It's a long term investment, but that's why they call it a "farm system". Get out their and grow the younger crowd, it will pay off in the long run.
I love the intent of the thread, to grow and nurture PCH, and teams in GA in particular.
As a longtime mentor (1771, 4509, and year off or two), the hours can be long, the most successful teams have the teachers/mentors who can spend the hours, or have a great balance of mentors to share the load.
Bigger picture, let's look at what IS huge in GA: football. Like it or not, GA is one of the top states in the US for football. Why? The feeder system: they start out as 6 year olds, many families even hold the kid back a year to get bigger. In addition, GA rules allow football coaches to get extra stipends in various ways.
As a teacher/sponsor, the cash is nice, but it really is cool to watch you folks light up with that FRC magic. The bigger thing: are we doing all we can to nurture the younger kids? I have also spent the past semester mentoring FLL, VEX IQ and VEX EDR, and they need the help in the younger years!
Look at the places where the top teams in the world are from, and I guarantee you that high school football is not nearly as popular (I'm looking at YOU Simbotics, my Canadian friends...). It's a long term investment, but that's why they call it a "farm system". Get out their and grow the younger crowd, it will pay off in the long run.
Yeah, they just have this neat thing called hockey. Youth sports are a factor everywhere, and while football is especially prominent in GA, the overall sports scene is not particularly worse than other areas in North America.
I agree with the whole idea of a farm system but I'm less sold on that being the defining difference. It really comes back to competitive culture, mentors, and resources. The mentors can build the culture and the resources, but all three have to be present to have a truly dominant team.
PCH Uniformerer
19-12-2016, 19:56
Look at the places where the top teams in the world are from, and I guarantee you that high school football is not nearly as popular (I'm looking at YOU Simbotics, my Canadian friends...). It's a long term investment, but that's why they call it a "farm system". Get out their and grow the younger crowd, it will pay off in the long run.
I'm not sure what your exact message is. If you are trying to say that the prominence of HS sports is what's making Georgia a weak national frc competitor, I don't think you have much evidence to support this. Texas is massive for football (high school stadiums in the tens of millions of $), yet still has elite teams such as 118, 148, 624, and 1477 among many. As the previous poster said, Canada has hockey. FRC doesn't exactly draw its students from the athletic crowd (yes there is some overlap). One could even argue that having a large highschool sports presence is beneficial for frc teams, as it would increase school spirit and competitiveness.
I think you are missing the point of my first post, being that PCH simply lacks the drive the be competitive on the national scale, and until we start pushing each other to be better, we don't stand a chance against the rest of the world.
MikeReilly
19-12-2016, 20:58
And this is why I stopped posting on CD, over-reaction to specific sentences and not whole ideas.
Yes, resources are essential, as are mentors. And no, I am not saying school sports and FRC are mutually exclusive. My point was: what are you doing to nurture the talent base at a younger age? Having been part of a team that won multiple regionals at PCH, a team that won a National Creativity Award, I can tell you that money, time and mentors can only go so far. I feel you need many things, but nurturing future team members is the difference maker, because that's what we didn't have when we didn't do well at the national level.
With that, back to CD retirement.
PCH Uniformerer
19-12-2016, 21:19
I think getting kids involved at a younger age is a piece of the puzzle, but more so in terms of growing involvement, which isn't the exact problem here.
Many teams are experiencing new member growth as their outreach programs started 3-4 years ago in middle schools start to yield results, but this member growth hasn't changed the core problem competitiveness. Whether a team has 5 members, 15, or 50, no pch team has yet to show they are truly dedicated to being the best they can be. Everyone seems content with low effort bots that get them 1 banner, a semi final exit at state champs, and a ticket to worlds.
But then again, there is no reason to be competitive when you have 18 half-champs slots for a district as poorly performing as pch, right?
PCHuninformed
19-12-2016, 22:31
18[/B] half-champs slots for a district as poorly performing as pch, right?
wow, But then again, there is no reason to be competitive when you have 18 half-champs slots for a district as poorly performing as pch, right? How many i'd assume your team never won many blue banners and therefore you are very salty.:] ::ouch:: :p :
PCHuninformed
19-12-2016, 22:32
blue banners are our only goal, we registered for the least competitive events for a reason... There are some perks to being in Georgia
PCH Uniformerer
19-12-2016, 22:57
I get the feeling you are not actually on 2974...
I also think you are missing the point.
Yes banners are nice. But like a lot of things in life, they are a lot nicer when you have to actually work to get them. The "value" of a pch banner is not very high due to the lack of competition. If we all worked to improve the skills level of everyone in our district, wins would become much more valuable, and our performance at worlds would greatly increase.
I'm not associated with PCH, but this has to be one of the weirdest threads I've read here in a while. Am I correct in seeing that there are two anonymous accounts, one just passive aggressively saying the district is awful and needs to improve and one just trolling?
BrennanB
19-12-2016, 23:21
I'm not associated with PCH, but this has to be one of the weirdest threads I've read here in a while. Am I correct in seeing that there are two anonymous accounts bashing on their own district?
Seems so.
This year, with PCH being allocated 18 spots, we will send an additional 5 teams to their doom at half-champs, so I ask you, my fellow PCHers, when are we going to stop being complacent being the laughing stock of the FRC world? When are we going to stop creating teams just add a tally to our chairman's presentation, and instead focus on helping the existing teams?
I ask this because there is little effort being made.
I just wanted to comment a little bit on this since I have seen the competitive increase of Ontario specifically, among closely following other regions for awhile now.
I can understand your frustration, though I question your method to enact change. Not sure if calling out/raging at the teams (presumably in your region) is all that productive. The best way to raise the level of competitiveness from my experience has been to raise the bar by improving your own team's performance. Obviously it's easier said than done, but we can definitely see a trend in stronger region performance when one team breaks out and becomes super strong and starts winning everything.
Speaking as the one that registered 2974 for the events... We didn't do Gainesville for a couple of reasons. We try to avoid week one events. Also at the time the Gainesville venue was an unknown. We also liked Dalton. Columbus is our Prom weekend. Also that would mean back to back competitions. While I agree that Gainesville and Columbus are a little stronger, at least on paper, that wasn't evident at registration time.
The competitive side of us do like the blue banners. :] Increasing the competitiveness of the PCH district is only going make us better. While I rarely make statements here representing the team, we look forward to working in a constructive way to making PCH a better place. Part of which is improving the performance of all teams.
MARS_James
20-12-2016, 01:49
So I just spent about an hour researching and typing out a response trying to defend Georgia and it's teams using stats comparing them to my own state, which is directly south of them Florida. However it really came across like I was just praising Florida and not really coming to Georgia's defense. If anyone is curious to see stats comparing Florida and the teams it sent to champs to Georgia I have it, and will share it; but it really isn't necessary to what is the point at hand.
Georgia on average is about as competitive as other similar areas when taken as a whole (my stats support this). By similar areas I mean in terms of average age of teams, rough number of teams, and access to supportive funding. Even when you don't factor in the similar areas thing I don't think anyone can say that if you take an average team from another district (someone who consistently ranked around 20th during the season) and stuck them in Georgia they would dominate the Georgia teams.
The issue is (and once again my stats support this) that highly ranked Georgia teams are not on the level of similarly ranked teams from other areas; this leads to what some would see as disappointing showings at champs.
This isn't necessarily anyone's fault either, and is not something that has an easy fix. I don't think bashing teams, the district, or each other is going to make this any more productive.
Like I said above I have some stats comparing Georgia to Florida, and if anyone from any team (Georgia or otherwise) wants some opinions on what could make an area/team more competitive feel free to PM me or make a thread about that, not put it in this thread which was supposed to celebrate the districts 2017 season.
Osseus_Dominum
20-12-2016, 03:47
I'm not associated with PCH, but this has to be one of the weirdest threads I've read here in a while. Am I correct in seeing that there are two anonymous accounts, one just passive aggressively saying the district is awful and needs to improve and one just trolling?
I'm pretty sure we have more than 2 anonymous/parody/troll personalities by now. On the bright side, this means that there is actually one thing that PCH does better than other areas!
martin417
20-12-2016, 11:40
I agree with Mike to a point, in that a "farm system" would help get the kids up to speed and ready to participate more quickly and with less instruction. As a mentor for Mike's teams and others, I can say that the kids were almost never the problem or a hindrance to creating an "elite" team.
If you look at the parks and schools around GA, you will see millions of dollars' worth of athletic fields and infrastructure for sports. The campus of the two schools with which I have been involved in FRC have far more land dedicated to athletic competition than to scholastic education. I am not saying athletics are bad, but if the school had dedicated 1% as much time and budget to the FRC team as they do to the football team, we could have built a dynasty.
In fact, I have found the school to be the biggest enemy of the FRC team. They contribute no money to the team, and other than a place to work, offer nothing to the team (the county is a different story, they do contribute). If a teacher wants to volunteer his or her time great, but teachers do have lives to live and classes to teach. I would be willing to bet that the "elite" teams, like 1114, 2056, 148 etc. either have great school support, or are entirely separate from the school (that would be my preference).
Imagine if there was a job like the coach of the football team, where his or her job is to go out and win the state championship, but for FRC. A paid, full time position, perhaps with assistants. Access to the work-space would be assured so that students could access and work on the robot when needed, instead of when the school was open.
Mike worked hard and was building an elite team:
In 2008, his team made it quarterfinals on Archimedes, and won the world championship creativity award.
In 2009, his team was on the first seed alliance at Peachtree, Palmetto, world championships (Galileo), IRI and GRITs. They won Palmetto and GRITs.
In 2010, his team won Peachtree and competed in the quarterfinals on Galileo
In 2011 Again won Peachtree, and was the #1 seed on Galileo, and made it to the semifinals at world championships.
After that, Mike moved to a different school, and support from the school got even worse, the team was competitive in 2012, and in 2013 and 2014, they didn't even have a team. The kids wanted it back and re-entered FRC in 2015, but again, school support was pretty much non-existent.
If you want teams in GA to be competitive there are several things that would help:
Either get the teams out of the schools (expensive) or get more support from the schools.
Recognize the achievements made by the kids, reward excellence.
Keep in mind that this is a competition, outcomes are important, and should not be decided by judicial fiat.
GA FIRST needs to follow the rules and guidelines set forth by FIRST.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
GA FIRST needs to follow the rules and guidelines set forth by FIRST.
I may have missed this part of the discussion, but what rules and guidelines are GA FIRST not adhering to?
Andrew Schreiber
20-12-2016, 12:30
I may have missed this part of the discussion, but what rules and guidelines are GA FIRST not adhering to?
Astroturf under the fields should probably be on that list.
Lil' Lavery
20-12-2016, 13:07
Astroturf under the fields should probably be on that list.
As someone who has never participated in a venue selection committee, is that actually a rule from FIRST, or something that simply slipped past without anyone actually considering its impact?
Andrew Schreiber
20-12-2016, 13:11
As someone who has never participated in a venue selection committee, is that actually a rule from FIRST, or something that simply slipped past without anyone actually considering its impact?
To my knowledge it's not in the venue rules from FIRST but it should be filed under "common sense"
As someone who has never participated in a venue selection committee, is that actually a rule from FIRST, or something that simply slipped past without anyone actually considering its impact?
The story I was told and have no reason to doubt... The Columbus district was held in a multi purpose ice hockey arena. Bottom layer is always ice. The assumption was that the regular covering would be sufficient to keep the ice ice and separate from the field turned out to be incorrect. IE spots of water here and there. The issue was discovered too late to change venues. The only option was to cover the ice with the arena football field and then to cover that with carpet. Solved the water game problem, but made for a bouncy field. The Columbus district has a different venue this year that does not start with ice. Large areas of ice in south Georgia is some what of an oxymoron. The best place for ice in south Georgia is in tea.
Munchskull
20-12-2016, 13:44
The story I was told and have no reason to doubt... The Columbus district was held in a multi purpose ice hockey arena. Bottom layer is always ice. The assumption was that the regular covering would be sufficient to keep the ice ice and separate from the field turned out to be incorrect. IE spots of water here and there. The issue was discovered too late to change venues. The only option was to cover the ice with the arena football field and then to cover that with carpet. Solved the water game problem, but made for a bouncy field. The Columbus district has a different venue this year that does not start with ice. Large areas of ice in south Georgia is some what of an oxymoron. The best place for ice in south Georgia is in tea.
Ice is sketchy for many other reasons. The Autodesk regional used to be held at the Memorial Coliseum in Portland. It's a hockey rink no they would put a hard plastic cover over. The thing is ice and plastic are both insulators which caused the feild to act as a giant capacitor. This really became a problem in 2009 when the static charge the robots created eventually discharged frying the FMS. From then on when ever Memorial Coliseum was used for a Regional or PNW DCMP it is in the contract to remove the ice from under the plastic. So that is my horror story of why ice should NEVER be under the feild regardless of if it is melting or not.
BenDSterling
20-12-2016, 14:16
As someone who was a part of the planning for Columbus, let's talk about that venue. The ice is always the bottom layer. They don't remove it for events. On top of the ice was a layer of thin plastic, then plywood, then another layer of thin plastic, then the AstroTurf. The venue would not remove the AstroTurf for our event. I do not recall exactly why they wouldn't remove it, but either way it wasn't our decision.
AstroTurf makes an awful floor for the pits. The little plastic beads would have gotten into every part of the robots and good luck pushing carts on it. So because of this, Georgia FIRST bought all the carpet to go ontop of the AstroTurf. Everyone saw that this ground would be bouncy, it was just something we would have to live with. (In fact some peoples saw it as a good thing, the lost robot parts bin at Columbus was almost empty). Now this season we are using a different Columbus venue. This seasons venue is almost identical to KSU.
Now as for KSU and the plywood floor. KSU refused to remove the basketball court floor. They also required us to protect the floor from damage (the thin plastic cover they usually use wouldn't be enough protection). So, Georgia FIRST went out and bought all the plywood to cover the basketball court. This wasn't really ideal, but also wasn't really our decision.
NoahMinter
20-12-2016, 15:12
Now as for KSU and the plywood floor. KSU refused to remove the basketball court floor. They also required us to protect the floor from damage (the thin plastic cover they usually use wouldn't be enough protection). So, Georgia FIRST went out and bought all the plywood to cover the basketball court. This wasn't really idea, but also wasn't really our decision.
Can confirm, laying the 600+ pieces of OSB with a team of only 7 was a pain. But it taught me a lesson in hardwork. Only took us 5 hours.
Now as for KSU and the plywood floor. KSU refused to remove the basketball court floor. They also required us to protect the floor from damage (the thin plastic cover they usually use wouldn't be enough protection). So, Georgia FIRST went out and bought all the plywood to cover the basketball court. This wasn't really ideal, but also wasn't really our decision.
Being a stickler for accuracy
1) The KSU floor was not removable, it is built in permanent. It isn't a situation of people saying no just to inconvenience teams.
2) A decision was made to adequately protect the floor. Six months was spent investigating other events world-wide, from cost, protection levels, and risk of liability, and the most cost efficient method was 7/16 OSB, not plywood. Plywood is a very different material. There were events that had much higher cost flooring systems, with lower performance, and in some instances, significant facility damage. All things considered, the KSU solution was the best that was available. Even if the floor would have been removable, it would cost more to remove it than cover it.
4) and sticking to the facts, it was less than 500 sheets, about 470+ if I remember correctly, Just the facts ma'am, just the facts !
3) As Noah said, the system went down in 5 hours, but now that it is engineered with a lot of custom cut pieces, the whole thing could go down in half the time, if needed.
NoahMinter
20-12-2016, 22:00
3) As Noah said, the system went down in 5 hours, but now that it is engineered with a lot of custom cut pieces, the whole thing could go down in half the time, if needed.
It came up in under half that time. It was actually rather efficient the way we were operating.
JohnFogarty
21-12-2016, 10:25
I'm usually still in hibernation for another 2 weeks. :yawn:
I think the largest issue I've seen in my brief 10 years in FIRST is that teams lack a good financial, mentor, and recruiting foundation to be successful in FRC. If the gap between teams is so large in that respect it generally lowers the competition in a given area. Teams need to be more creative and helping other teams understand the best ways to become sustainable and to help generate new ideas for fundraising. I think just doing those two things would raise the bar significantly over time for not only the PCH district, but FIRST teams across the country. I've heard the announcements from judges at regional events in the past about the budget that Kell Robotics had and that didn't make me salty...it made me want to learn about how they got to that point.
jman4747
21-12-2016, 15:17
Some solutions:
1. I think one of the best ways to increse the available mentor base and funding would be to encourage current sponsors to talk to their business partners about getting involved. They can also make a point of making sure their employees are aware of the opportunity to mentor teams and even incentivize it if they have the recourses.
2. A focus on getting business professionals working with teams to develop longer term strategic plans would help too.
3. GA teams probably need to do more of season development and training. I think a lot of people still see FRC as a Jan-April thing.
4. While it certainly isn't isn't incumbent on them; I would like to see a push by the two big engineering schools in Atlanta to make more of the faculty, students, and alumni aware of FIRST and much like in point 1 incentivize participation some how. GA Tech/Kennesaw state grads run and work in a lot of business around here.
DonRotolo
23-12-2016, 16:46
Part of the problem is the way schools view FRC: administration sees this as a club. The mentor doesn't get a stipend, and other than build space the school and the county offer no additional resources.
It becomes a marketing problem: marketing the value of FRC and other programs to school administration. A farm system would also help.
And I agree: schools here don't seem to cooperate with each other. At all.
Just wanted to say thank you for giving me a fun read this evening
Being pretty heavily entrenched in GA FIRST, it's funny to me the assumptions about us making decisions based on maximum potential misery, but of course without knowing everything that goes on behind closed doors, it can feel like we're out to get you! :yikes:
On a bright note - this year again we aim (as always) to give all of our GA teams the best possible experience we can at each and every event.
Much love,
Your GA FIRST Volunteer Family
PayneTrain
27-12-2016, 23:11
Part of the problem is the way schools view FRC: administration sees this as a club. The mentor doesn't get a stipend, and other than build space the school and the county offer no additional resources.
It becomes a marketing problem: marketing the value of FRC and other programs to school administration. A farm system would also help.
And I agree: schools here don't seem to cooperate with each other. At all.
Not enough people talk about the "reverse farm system", which is identifying, inspiring, engaging, and enabling students of the program to become productive alumni in the program as mentors. The hardest thing to come by in FIRST is enough stupid crazy people who care too much and keep greasing the wheels despite the constant wrangling of the crazy environment the factions of FIRST HQ, the local affiliates, the team's sponsoring organization, and the internal stakeholders of the team come together (or wildly diverge) in creating.
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